"I went to Jerusalem to become acquainted (Gk. istoria) with Cephas" - Paul's words from Galatians 1:18.

Thursday, June 10, 2021

Wake Up! Critical Race Theory, a Tool of Marxism

Xi Van Fleet Speaks to Virginia School Board
A Chinese mother,  Xi Van Fleet, who endured Mao Zedong’s Cultural Revolution before immigrating to the U.S., and whose children attend a Virginia public school, ripped her children's Virginia school board at a public meeting Tuesday, June 8, 2021, over its stubborn support of the controversial critical race theory.

"I’ve been very alarmed by what’s going on in our schools,"
Xi Van Fleet told the Loudoun County School Board members. "You are now teaching, training our children to be social justice warriors and to loathe our country and our history."

She likened CRT, which critics deride as a form of "neo-racism," to China’s Cultural Revolution, a Mao-led purge that left between 500,000 and 20 million people dead from 1966 to 1976. 

Let that sink in.  Critical Race Theory as implemented in China during the Mao-Zedong Revolution led to the deaths of nearly 20 million people. CRT is racism in reverse. 

You may not believe me when I tell you that CRT is a death-rot for the United States of America, but I hope you will at least believe Xi Van Fleet who lived under a CRT purge in China during Mao Zedong. 

Rachelle and I are heading to the 2021 Southern Baptist Convention in Nashville, Tennessee. Critical Race Theory will be an issue at this Convention. I will oppose ANY and ALL support of CRT. Several of my black friends have said they will "leave the SBC if a resolution against CRT is passed."  I want my friends to know in advance, I am not voting for the purging of all things CRT-related because I am a racist. No! I am voting against CRT being taught in our schools, supported in our churches, and ingrained in our children because I AM NOT RACIST, and my understanding of history leads me to believe that CRT is the Trojan Horse within the United States to bring about the downfall of the greatest nation in the history of the world.

I am opposing CRT precisely because I believe racism is a sin and supporting CRT is a racist means through which the United States of America will be demolished. 

Listen to Xi Van Fleet (transcript): 
"I've been very alarmed about what's going on in our school, you are now teaching, training our children to be social justice warriors and to love our country and our history growing up in China all this same very familiar. 

They are a communist regime, used the same Critical Theory to DIVIDE people. The only difference is they used class instead of race during the Cultural Revolution. 

I witnessed students and teachers can turn against each other. We changed school names to be politically correct. We were taught to denounce our heritage.

The Red Guards destroy anything that is not communist statues, books, and anything else. And we were also encouraged to report on each other, just like the Student Equity Ambassador Program and the Biased Reporting System. 
This is indeed the American version of Chinese communism, the Chinese Cultural Revolution. 

The critical race theory has its roots in cultural Marxism. 

It should have no place in our schools.

Amen, Xi Van Fleet. 

Amen.  

The video of Xi Van Fleet speaking is below:

66 comments:

Kayla Nichols said...

Parents,

I implore you to read Red Scarf Girl by Ji Li Jiang to your children. It chronicles the authors life as a child living through the Cultural Revolution. The book is written for children, but I suspect most parents will find it just as intriguing. There is so much in it that parallels our current situation in the USA, and it will provoke some very interesting family discussion. Enjoy!

Wade Burleson said...

Thank you, Kayla.

Lissa Roberson said...

I would like to offer this video clip from a school board meeting just two nights ago (Tuesday, 6/8) in Loudoun County, VA -- perhaps ground zero in the grass-roots resistance against CRT.

https://nypost.com/2021/06/10/mom-who-survived-maos-china-blasts-critical-race-theory/

In one minute, Mrs. Xi compares Critical Race Theory to the Chinese Cultural Revolution which she witnessed in her childhood and was able to escape at age 26.

The only difference between the Communist Revolution and modern-day CRT is that China used socio-economic class to divide people whereas the USA is using race/skin color. The rest of what Mrs. Xi declares, brilliantly describes what is unfolding before our very eyes.

Scott Shaver said...

Hey Lissa: Thank you. Salute from Conroe TX.

Scott Shaver said...

The SBC annual convocation this year may at least curtail future derailment (on that issue anyway) by one racist pastor. Keeping me fingers crossed😜

Scott Shaver said...

If the denominational SBC can't handle ONE racist pastor, don't give it a fruitfly's chance if collectively addressing the issue of sexual abuse in autonomous churches.

Wade Burleson said...

Lissa,

Rachelle and I look forward to seeing you and Stew on Sunday!

Scott Shaver said...

Let's see...if Al Mohler is elected as SBC prez and Russell Moore and NAMB prevail with SCOTUS, then every SBC pastor could soon be answering to Pope Al and NAMB with the 2000BFM as chopping block. Throw in a little racist CRT and it makes for, as Ed Sullivan used to say, "A really big shew".

Enjoy Wade.

Christiane said...

Primary sources of information. Voices from the past:

https://youtu.be/fZfcc21c6Uo

Christiane said...

When I was twelve years old, I studied at Meadowbrook Elementary School in Norfolk VA and had a book that talked about the year 1619 in Virginia. It mentioned that the first slaves had arrived in Virginia in that year. I learnt it as one of three important things that happened in Virginia colony that year.
And I did not forget it. No hiding it. It was taught openly as history of Virginia.

So I wondered when I heard about 'CRT' what all the fuss was about. And I heard about Dr. McKissic and how he tried to help people make sense of it. And I remembered the old stories of my mother's family who had owned slaves long ago, and how some of the stories were of good and some were beyond evil.

For me, likely some of the blood of my maternal family may flow in the veins of some African American people today, and that calls to me louder than all the political voices, and I want that story, their story, told, NOT by politicians, nor followers of a personality cult, nor those seeking some 'end-times' nuclear holocaust, no.
I want to hear the voices of my OWN racially diverse family, if they exist as the stories were told, how it has been for them in this land. 'Silencing'? 'Excluding'? 'Changing the narrative?' I have no patience for that anymore.

The DNA of my family will live on in some who are African American and they have a story to SHARE though some may not enjoy hearing it. I accept, that their 'story' is a part of my own storied past, and if I am to understand my own humanity in the context of my maternal family's history, I must also hear my African American 'cousins' speak.


What's it all about? This timeline helped me some:

https://www.governor.wa.gov/sites/default/files/Dr.BernardDemczukCriticalRaceTheoryTimeline.pdf

Scott Shaver said...

Christianne:

McKissic is not a slave. He is a garden variety racist and a political deconstructionist. All while pushing a Marxist idealogy as a tool for both public and private Christian education.

Scott Shaver said...

This is 2021, not 1861 nor 1961.

RB Kuter said...

Thanks, Wade, and Lissa. It all makes sense. We can sense that something is awry with the entire push and indoctrination strategy of this "CRT". This bold testimony of the Chinese-American identifies it correctly as being an exact and unequivocal facsimile of the Marxist indoctrination strategy. That explains it all.

It all goes along with the demonizing of the patriotic ideology of the United States of America as has been the trend these past 12 years with perhaps a temporary reprieve of some degree due to the Trump push for a return to nationalism.

We can tell that the entire "CRT" push and move to shame the US has absolutely nothing to do with being an attempt to resolve the problem of racism that does exist. As a matter of fact, any objective-minded observer, whether white or of color, can recognize that racism, amazingly since the Obama election, has regressed to where it was in the 1970s after our having made significant progress until 2008.

RB Kuter said...

Scott, this year's SBC circus with the sad campaign for Convention President matches all preceding calamities in terms of being a farce.

I believe there are four candidates, Randy Adams from NW, Ed Litton from Alabama, Mohler, who needs not introduction, and Mike Stone of Georgia. I have not kept up with them but have been directed to some video campaign ads by Stone. Man, was that a disappointment! Vicious! Something about a Baptist who will be nominated for President having a campaign strategy just seems sad to me.

I see no way for the results to end up being conducive to the SBC escalating in its integrity no matter how this Convention turns out. The opposite will probably be the case. And all this sad state of affairs following a year when I believe I heard the SBC roles declined by 400,000 members!

Like so many other traditional institutions in America, it seems this is another one on its way to being "Gone With The Wind".

Scott Shaver said...

I agree with you both on CRT and the SBC RB.

The irony of the CR and its slogans and shibboleths of "innerrancy" and scriptural "sufficiency" is how the SBC turned right around under Mohler,Patterson,Rogers et al and wrote Christ out of the BFM as THE criterion of interpretation.

Now look at the messy corner they've painted theselves into with their 21 year old creed.

RB Kuter said...

Goodness, upon reviewing my two most recent comments I sure seem like a pessimistic old man! Sorry about that. Just trying to be realistic and on the state of our nation and the SBC there is not a lot to be optimistic about. Now if we begin to speak of "Kingdom" affairs, that's horse of a different color! Oh, can I say that?

Scott Shaver said...

Exactly the reasons RB not to give quarter to SBC preachers like McKissic be they white, black or any other ethnicity on the spectrum.

Scott Shaver said...

RB, I prefer to call it biblically informed Christian skepticism. Just sounds better.

Christiane said...

"Now if we begin to speak of "Kingdom" affairs, that's horse of a different color! Oh, can I say that?"

Please do! :)

Mr. Kuter,
the language of the 'Kingdom of Our Lord' allows for joy and for hope, even now, especially now. Yes, we CAN all say that.

Christiane said...

sometimes people get 'a second chance';

sometimes a whole people get 'a second chance'

to do what?

to understand what 'went wrong'; and then, having understood, to change it

for this to happen, there must be dialogue that is constructive and it will only succeed among people of good will who are not afraid to seek out what is beneficial from something as well as what is harmful when a 'second chance' presents itself

it won't work for people who are fearful or who have 'sharp edges' or who struggle to see the image of God in another human person, which is all of us UNLESS, in God's mercy we are touched by His grace





Rex Ray said...

CHRISTIANE,

A while back, I said, “But that’s another story.”

My brother, Hez, and I were 15, when we met Monita and her family in Germany. We didn’t find out why they were so glad to see our father until he told Hez many years later.

Hez was in the process of moving an abandoned aircraft hanger from World War II to Fairbanks, Alaska. Indians had used the hanger many years and were angry about it being taken, and started steeling. Hez got Daddy to leave Texas and be a ‘night watchman’. (He didn’t need a gun; his voice could scare the dead.)

As the last truck was leaving, they noticed smoke coming from many bedrolls that were on the concrete floor. They rushed down to put the fire out. When they got there, bullets started exploding. (Indians had put bullets on the bedrolls.)

They took cover behind a 3-foot wall where Daddy started laughing.
“Why are you laughing?”
“This is just like World War II.”

During the hour they laid there, was when Daddy told the story, “When is my Daddy coming home?”

Scott Shaver said...

Is this cryptic language or something Christianne?

Your intent or meaning here completely escapes me.

Rex Ray said...

Judy fell this morning; will be using a walker a few days.

Scott Shaver said...

I am very sorry to hear that Rex. My prayers.

Rebekah said...

Part 1 of 2 (due to the character limit on posted comments)

Major premise: Mao-Zedong’s Cultural Marxism is bad.
Minor premise: Critical Race Theory (CRT) is Cultural Marxism.
Conclusion: Critical Race Theory is bad.
A = C. B = A. Therefore, B = C.

“Let that sink in.” Let what sink in? Your minor premise is not supported, therefore your conclusion is not supported either. How, exactly, is Critical Race Theory similar (let alone identical) to Mao-Zedong’s Cultural Marxism? The Maoist revolution created a single mythos through which all of Chinese history and culture was to be understood. It violently destroyed evidence of historical and cultural facts that did not align with that mythos, and violently punished those who questioned that mythos. In contrast, CRT deliberately suggests that any such popularly accepted mythos must be questioned, and that historical and cultural facts should be honored and recognized, whether they support that mythos or not. In the case of the United States, our popular mythos is a narrative about our country as a wholly benevolent shining city on a hill, founded on Christian principles, smiled upon and blessed by God, and which is itself a blessing to all other nations and peoples. CRT asks us to question this mythos, and to recognize that there is evidence which does not support it. Indeed, the evidence against this narrative is rife throughout our history and culture – just as the evidence against Mao-Zedong’s narrative was rife throughout the history and culture of China.

What would it take for us to be able to have a national conversation about how our society is structured? What would it take for us to consider the possibility that our structure – our mythos – has created and continues to create systemic harm to entire groups of people? It seems to me that last year we were well on our way to being able to have such a conversation; but then the narrative was hijacked with cries of, “Oh, no! CRT is bad!” The label, ‘Critical Race Theory,’ is turning into the new red scare. If someone questions the reigning mythos of America’s innocence, then they must be doing so because of CRT, and that must be cultural Marxism, and then that must mean the person who raised the question wants to bring about the downfall of America. This is an apparently deliberate misuse of the label, ‘CRT,’ which appears intended to prevent the very conversations we so desperately need to have.

Rebekah said...

Part 2 of 2 (due to the character limit on posted comments)

What Mrs. Van Fleet lived through was horrific. Her lived experience is important and valuable; but it does not necessarily make her an expert on the specific ethnographic technique known as Critical Race Theory. Moreover, if we presume that living through a violent trauma does provide her with the authority to speak on this particular topic, then we must also presume that other people who lived through similar violent traumas have accrued similar authority thereby. There are many such people, notably including the three survivors of the Tulsa Massacre, as well as the survivors of other violences (and the testimonial records of those who did not) experienced by minorities in the United States, both contemporary and historical. Such people (e.g. the entire Native American community, victims of police violence, etc.) would be equally qualified to speak on this topic – and many of them are doing so. Many of them are the very voices arguing in favor of CRT as a valuable and necessary tool with which to understand our history and culture. Some of them are identified in your article as your friends. Why are their voices regarded as less valuable than that of Mrs. Van Fleet? Is it possible that their voices are dismissed for exactly those reasons which CRT would suggest (i.e. that the structures of our society cause systemic harm to certain groups of people)?

Far from thoughtfully considering the substance of Critical Race Theory, the ‘CRT’ label is now being used as a distraction to prevent such substantial conversations from taking place at all. Your friends who are considering leaving the SBC if a resolution against CRT is passed see this, and they are voicing their concerns to you about it. There are very real and necessary conversations that need to take place about the racism and sexual abuse that plague the SBC convention, and those conversations are not able to happen because of the fear-mongering and denigration attached to the label, ‘CRT.’ The refusal to do the real historical exploration that CRT is calling for, and the demonization of people trying to have these conversations, are themselves worrisomely similar to Mao-Zedong’s cultural Marxism. The danger lies in creating any unquestioned historical mythos, whether that mythos is a Chinese socialist narrative or an American Christian one – and pointing out this danger is exactly what CRT is trying to do.

Christiane said...

Taking cover behind a wall and laughing. :) LOL

REX RAY, I can see the whole scene the way you write about it. That's good writing. In the midst of 'that's another story', your father tells you ANOTHER story.
Story-telling is almost a lost art and any signs of its resurgence is most certainly welcomed and appreciated by those of us who know that 'story' is an ancient way for humans to communicate. Your stories are the best!



REX RAY, is Judy okay? Did she see a doctor? Does she know why she fell?
If it was dizzy spells, she needs to be checked.

my last fall was when I stepped into a hole filled with dead leaves in the back garden a few years ago . . . went down like a rock and couldn't stand up SO I worked it out that I was able to 'crab walk' backwards to the deck and inch upwards and pound on the glass door 'till my dear husband came and said 'what are you doing down there?' It was not a pretty sight. I was covered with leaves and pine needles and yes, mud. :) Not hurt, no, except my pride. It was a very humbling experience.

I hope Judy recovers well. Sorry to hear the news.

Rex Ray said...

CHRISTIANE,

I was still asleep when I heard a crash. Judy was in the process of removing the ‘top’ of some wallpaper in the bathroom. She stood on the commode, got to the sink, and in order to stand, she grabbed the trim of the cabinet. The trim came off, and she fell.

Her heels hurt most; put icepack on the worst. We plan to have X-rays for a possible hair-line crack. She’s walking OK with a walker.

Scott Shaver said...

It (national conversation)would certainly take a more substantial dialogue,biblically and prayerfully informed than your nebulous social engineering speculations under the cloak of "conversations". Better to go with something historically tried and tested with positive result.

Scott Shaver said...

Rebekkah uses a lot of words to simply say: Dammit, adopt my social ideaology and use my language. Good luck with that. CRT = Marxist Black American Racism, with a touch of liberation theology for flavor.

Jen said...

The tone we use as Christians matters. When I hear Christians speaking so unkindly to one another, it reminds me that we are no different than anyone else. We need to enter a season of listening, really listening to one another. Find a friend who believes differently than you and be open to what they are saying. Don't just listen, but have your mind closed. Be willing to have an open mind to new ideas (or to old ideas that just haven't been part of your world). The last year has taught us that if we are white, we really don't know what it's like to be black and we really don't know how much generational discrimination has been "baked in". Be willing to listen. We could solve a lot of problems this way, as I believe miscommunication is one of our largest problems. We shut down when we hear "Black Lives Matter" or "CRT" or "Defund the Police" instead of listening to what is behind those terms. Maybe the terms should be renamed, but the underlying root issue of racism, misogyny, and sexual abuse in the church are extremely real.

Scott Shaver said...

Rex: Sorry man, those chinese hardware screws (if that) are notorious for that kind of thing, as well as the hardware.

Scott Shaver said...

We are no "different than anyone else"...hence the love and sacrifice of Christ, even for those whom you find most vile.

Scott Shaver said...

The "generational baking in of racism" and marxism is exactly what CRT proposes.

Scott Shaver said...

The root issue is sin, dealt with by God on a personal and individual level, not in collectives.

Scott Shaver said...

Jen,Christians also have a long and storied history of actually killing each other.

Part of our sinful nature.

RB Kuter said...

Part 1 of 2:

Rebekah says, "What would it take for us to be able to have a national conversation about how our society is structured? What would it take for us to consider the possibility that our structure – our mythos – has created and continues to create systemic harm to entire groups of people? It seems to me that last year we were well on our way to being able to have such a conversation; but then the narrative was hijacked with cries of, “Oh, no! CRT is bad!” The label, ‘Critical Race Theory,’ is turning into the new red scare."

What would it take...?

Your statement is a testimony as to what it would take and the unlikelihood of it taking place. It would take our being open-minded, objective thinking, eyes wide open, and indifferent to the influence and preferences of one side of the argument as opposed to the other.

Apparently in this day and time, it is an impossibility for "us" to have a national conversation about how our society is structured as your subsequent testimony displays.

You defend the premises of the relatively recent propagation of the "CRT" movement while taking an entirely one-sided position that has most aggressively been promoted since Obama became President. That position is contrary to the assessment held of this country through the preceding ages prior to this most recent, revised, premise used to implement a hostile re-invention of American society.

Prior to this contemporary idea of the United States being, as you describe,a structure that "has created and continues to create systemic harm to entire groups of people", our beloved nation was viewed as the shining hope for the world in the sense of being a model of democracy, freedom, individual sovereignty, with the government intended to exist for the purpose of serving the people. That is why people are willing to give their lives to enter this country instead of escaping as in so many other nations.

Prior to your beloved "CRT" implementation, which actually is only one element in the broader Marxist movement to destroy the reality of this amazing national enterprise, the world recognized the graciousness of this nation. The world knew and acknowledged and even relied upon the core of the goodness of the United States of America as it witnessed the US being a global power that so often used its influence to rescue the pain of injustice taking place in places far outside its national boundaries. They saw the amazing grace demonstrated by this country founded upon God's compassion, character and principles as it restrained itself following the defeat of those enemies who initiated attacks that drew us into war. Instead of the US utterly destroying its defeated enemies following those unwanted wars, which would have been justifiable and probably was expected by most,it actually used its power to re-build the infrastructure of its former enemies in ways unprecedented in history.

This Marxist campaign currently taking place has effectively buried the concept of national pride in the United States which is justified by a nation that is imperfect for sure, but which goes to great costs and pain to find solutions and seeks to remedy its faults and sins. So often the process for cure has been excruciating by our having to perform procedures for the self-extraction of those cancerous tumors of racism, slavery, and misguided use of power. But the core and character of this society resulted in such processes being taken.

RB Kuter said...

Part 2 of 2:

This is the nation that intervenes on behalf of those relatively insignificant nations to address blatant injustices, atrocities of genocide and immense natural disasters. It is the nation upon which global peace movements are dependent, that invests billions of dollars of its own toward sustaining cures for diseases and recovery from disasters when the rest of the nations of the world turn a blind eye or only contribute insignificant tokens of concern. Yet the "First Lady" of the first African-American President initiates her role stating, "This is the first time I have ever been proud of this nation."

We have had so many heroes and causes that justify our being a nation that deserves to be proud. Yet the string of "CRT"ers have been applying the strategy of actually demonizing the US, apologizing for its history and principles and elevating the status of those most hostile to our very existence.

They would have us remove all traces of those patriots and heroes who sacrificed themselves to contribute to the freedoms and liberty we have today. They would have us tear down all the statues and monuments of Lincoln, Jefferson, Washington, Douglas, Roosevelt, Eisenhower, and others because none of them were perfect and had flaws exposed through relentless and biased investigations meant to present them as demonic oppressors, racists, or self-serving power mongers. They would have us abolish the use of the National Anthem, the American flag, The Pledge of Allegiance, and the use of the phase, "One nation UNDER GOD".

No, those who are adamantly calling out "CRT" and this entire Marxist movement which has gained so much momentum and velocity in just the past years since 2008 are not the demons nor are their objections and opposition to the take-over unwarranted. I am afraid that you, like most of those defending and even promoting this propaganda carnage that demonizes this nation, have been caught up in the frightening, powerful, surge of justification for destroying what was once a great and bright light of hope for the world. Your efforts, which apparently are being so successful in accomplishing your revolution, will leave a black hole where a once vibrant, light of global hope once resided.

It is an occurrence that is confounding to those of us who see it for what it is and recognize the crumbling of what was for 200+ years a foundation which was obviously more vulnerable and fragile than we realized. Like the Maoists you emulate would affirm, you must tear down the "old" foundations and traditions prior to replacing it with a new society built upon an ideology that is entirely the antithesis of what formerly existed.

Shades of Khmer Rouge.

RB Kuter said...

"Exactly the reasons RB not to give quarter to SBC preachers like McKissic be they white, black or any other ethnicity on the spectrum."
Scott,
It is so disappointing when leaders of a religious institution are more influenced by "celebrity" and fame rather than by humbly submitting to the voice of God's Holy Spirit. I know, that I may be in danger of being judgmental of others' hearts, but it is an assessment based upon observing very blatant demonstrations of the same.

We see the display of the troubling disingenuous nature of leaders in the SBC as it appears decisions on who fills the role of leadership are based upon who has the biggest church, the most TV time, the most pull within the inner circle of power players. This instead of genuinely seeking and acknowledging those with the character, humility and proven display of serving God, being devoted to His Word, and serving with the spirit of selflessness, seeking no fame, no honor for themselves, no forum to use as divisive strategies.

It would be so fine to see leaders who were "sought out" and called rather than those who campaign for their own position of power. Not a good display of the humility of Christ who deserved it all but never sought to be elevated by the world's fame and celebrity.

Christiane said...

" ... genuinely seeking and acknowledging those with the character, humility and proven display of serving God, being devoted to His Word, and serving with the spirit of selflessness, seeking no fame, no honor for themselves, no forum to use as divisive strategies."

This! (veni creator Spiritus!)

if those who have the responsibility to 'vote' make a commitment to honor Christ in the way of their choosing, it might go better for the Church than in some man-made imitation of a secular political party, yes


an example, written and submitted with one's secret-ballot:
"I call as my witness Christ the Lord who will be my judge, that my vote is given to the one who before God I think should be elected."


Scott Shaver said...

Cheistianne: This goes way beyond casting stupid votes for stupid reasons at the annual SBC circus. This goes to the willingness of people to not only recognize the insidious nature of CRT, but to openly and vocally rebut and challenge those who seek to promote it for indoctrination in churches and public schools. I see such as public enemies.

Scott Shaver said...

If they want to be "cultural warriors" then let's give them a taste of what they're up against.

Scott Shaver said...

I appreciate everything you penned RB.

RB Kuter said...

"I call as my witness Christ the Lord who will be my judge, that my vote is given to the one who before God I think should be elected."

Wow, Christiane, if only this were the case. Here's the big problem: we only have one God, one Jesus Christ, and one Holy Spirit who indwells in the hearts of genuine, born-again followers of Christ and whose voice guides us in all decisions.

Yet, we who profess to be followers of Christ have totally opposite views on who God would have us vote for!

There might have been a time when the basic ideologies of candidates in this country were similar to a point where we might understand how genuine believers could justify supporting candidates running on different tickets. That certainly is not the case in this era.

How can a believer pray and ask God to reign sovereign over their decision to vote and then vote for certain politicians?

I know we both apply that question to the other with each of us wondering how we can support the positions that we do. My question is, "How can we have totally different views on candidates, ideologies, which are the antithesis of one another, if we are both listening to the Voice of God?"

Something is amiss here. Love to hear your opinion on that final question.

Christiane said...

Hello Mr. Kuter

In the end, people are given 'choice' by God.

I would say that people have an obligation to follow the laws of God that are written on their hearts: we call it 'moral conscience' in my Church.

In Christian formation, the Church helps a person to form a moral conscience, but the Church is not called to REPLACE an individual's moral conscience, no.

This is basic theology in my own Church, but it may be VERY different for people who are from other denominations, yes. I do not know your denomination's teaching on 'moral conscience', no. So it is difficult for me to fully understand your question; but for me, to act upon honor and conscience would be the basis of making a moral decision.
Christian formation in my Church advises and teaches, but it cannot make decisions for me: my moral decisions are my own responsibility before God. Those 'twinges' of conscience? They are there for a reason, yes. Nor can I interfere to keep another soul from following his or her own moral conscience.

Hope this helps some to answer your excellent question.

Scott Shaver said...

I agree with both RB and Christianne, the nations and their politics are a drop in the bucket.

Christiane said...

"Thy way is in the sea, and Thy path in the great waters, and Thy footsteps are not known"

(Psalm 77:19)

Rex Ray said...

Yesterday’s Laura Ingram Show said some people in their 30’s are having heart problems from the COVID-19 vaccine.

My doctor said it usually took eight years to have significant data to determine all side effects of a new vaccine.

Today, I was using the ‘sled motor’ to pull up wood to replace the ‘slide plywood’ that hasn’t been found.

It got stuck, so cell phoned Judy, and she came with her walker to the rescue. :)

Christiane said...

REX RAY,

Judy should be resting!!!! :)

Call a repair person to help you and you CAN 'supervise' the repair.
And get Judy's feet and ankles X-rayed for hair line fractures (which I know can be very painful).
And hire a professional wall paper installer to complete Judy's bathroom project, and Judy can supervise that.

Take it easy, you two!!!

Wade and Rachelle are coming to visit you soon. Try to stay safe already.

'nuff said.

Rex Ray said...

CHRISTIANE,

Wallpaper job is finished.

I’ve tried to hire someone, but they’re too busy. Judy used to go up four stairs that reach 40 feet.

A man called and wanted to know if the slide would be ready in a week as he wanted to bring a lot of kids. (Kids are usually less afraid than adults.)

Then there’s Wade coming! :)

Christiane said...

REX RAY

they're too busy? offer more money

my husband used to go on business trips for a contractor company that served the US military,
and one time he had to deliver an 'offer' by a dead-line to another company but his plane was delayed,
soooo .... when he did get to that city, he gave the cab driver fifty dollars and said 'if you get me there on time, you get another fifty'

the cab driver got my husband to the meeting on time (through L.A. traffic no less)

OFFER MORE MONEY - it works !

RB Kuter said...


"I would say that people have an obligation to follow the laws of God that are written on their hearts: we call it 'moral conscience' in my Church.
So it is difficult for me to fully understand your question; but for me, to act upon honor and conscience would be the basis of making a moral decision."

Christiane, I think you have spoken more actual truth in this one response than I have ever seen you state. In doing so you reveal a lot that explains the reasoning/logic behind so many professing "Christians". Your statement indeed proposes an option that likely explains how so many that say they are "Christians" can make alternative choices that support politicians that promote ideologies that are the antithesis of one another while both sides holding to the premise that they are making decisions consistent with what God would have them do.

As I understand your statement, you hold that a person is acting in a manner consistent with what God would have them do when they act upon their "moral conscience". You add, as I understand you to say, that "to act upon honor and conscience would be the basis of making a moral decision", or, I take it, to be making a decision consistent with what God would have them do.

Let me know if you think I have a correct and accurate assessment of what you think. If I am off, please let me know. If I am correct in my understanding, I believe it will explain much about what is taking place.

Christiane said...

Hello Mr. Kuter,

since I do not know what your denomination's teaching is concerning 'moral conscience', it would be hard for me to verify that you 'understand' what I wrote.

My Church's teaching on moral conscience is based on a much older teaching:
'that God is sovereign and yet He permits choice.'
I am aware that not all Christian denominations share this understanding.



Rex Ray said...

CHRISTIANE,

Let me twist you husband’s story about giving more money to get something done fast. The cab driver breaks the speed limit, drives dangerously, runs a red-light and caused a wreck that killed your husband.

I couldn’t resist. :)

When Judy came to the rescue, her feet stayed on the ground, and there’s few people that can do what I want done.

Scott Shaver said...

Christianne: Many Southern Baptists say the same with regard to sovereignty and choice. I agree.

Rex Ray said...

CHRISTIANE,

Oh, come on old friend, I thought my ‘make believe story’ was worth some kind of a reply.

Tomorrow, we’ll be driving 3 hours to Sarah Killough’s funeral. She and her husband Dwain were leaders of Volunteer Christian Builders that I was in for 20 years.

Rex Ray said...

CHRISTIANE,

Just learned of another funeral I’ll be going to. She will be buried ½ of mile from here at 8 in the morning. She was the first girl I ever dated when I was 18.

Christiane said...

REX RAY,

am also at the age where more of my friends have died and gone on ahead than not, so I understand how it can be

have a safe trip to Sarah's funeral and home again

hope that Judy is feeling better

try to get some help with that slide so you stay out of trouble, 'nuff said

Rex Ray said...

CHRISTIANE,
If the ‘occasion’ arrases, I may give this story at Betty’s funeral tomorrow.

MY BROTHER WOUNDED BY SHOTGUN
We were 18, when my twin brother, Hez, said, “Let’s go visit Rex’s girl.” (Betty) Another senior boy and our 15-year-old cousin, Frank, got in our Dad’s Model A. It didn’t have a starter; only a crank. One person used the crank to rolled the engine over while another person gave it gas. It was a mile to Betty’s house and her father, Ted, was a farmer. It was 8 o’clock at night, but since they didn’t have electricity, they’d gone to bed. We parked the car a hundred yards from the house.
Hez said, “Let’s wake them up!” Rain had left the dirt road with a lot of clods. The four of us got four clods each. We threw the first clods as high as we could, then threw lower so 16 clods hit the roof about the same time. (Betty said later, they thought the chimney had broken off and was sliding down the roof.)
We ran off laughing. After a while, Hez said, “Let’s do it again.” We repeated the process, but didn’t know Ted was in the yard behind a tree with a shotgun. I was still throwing when the others started running. Ted’s shotgun sounded like a cannon.
Ted said later that he was aiming at one a few feet away, but when he saw three, he was so angry he wanted to shoot three instead of one. No training is needed when a gun goes off; you hit the ground then run like crazy. I went to the car and waited for the others, but a flashlight blinded me. I thought I was dead.
“Is that you Rex?”
In a voice about to cry, “Yes Sir.”
“You boy’s shouldn’t do things that make others do what they shouldn’t do!”
He was worried he’d hurt someone. He helped get the car started. I drove, honking the horn, but they hid thinking Ted was driving. I got home, and later the others came.
Hez was the only one hit. Mother got the bird shot from one leg with tweezers. Daddy was the only one mother was angry with. “See, you’ve filled our boy’s heads with your tales of tricks! You’re going to get them killed!”
I figured if anyone should get hurt, Hez was the one. Years later, I told the story to Frank’s grandmother. She said, “So that’s what happened. I asked Frank why he was muddy, and all he said was, “It was muddy where I was.”

RB Kuter said...

Christiane wrote; "In the end, people are given 'choice' by God.
I would say that people have an obligation to follow the laws of God that are written on their hearts: we call it 'moral conscience' in my Church."

Perhaps the answer to the question of how "professing" Christians can vote the opposite on matters involving political proponents who are clearly in contrast on "moral" issues can be explained by Jesus' reference to how many professing followers will be rejected by Him in Matthew 7:22,23.

In that passage, how could Jesus say that "many" who profess to serve Jesus and do acts they say are "good, moral" acts "in the Name of Jesus" were never even "known" by Him and would be rejected by Him?

My conclusion as to His intent is that there is a difference in those who say they are doing "good, moral" acts out of a mere sense of "moral conscience" and those who have experienced a regeneration of their soul due to their submission to Jesus Christ as God and Lord of their lives, resulting in an indwelling of God's Holy Spirit in their souls.

This conclusion is supported by other portrayals of the exclusiveness of those who are genuinely transformed into the eternal children of God by this regenerative process and those who are not, such as Jesus' description in Matthew 7:13,14 of "a few entering into life through a small gate and narrow path" while the "majority enter into destruction through the large gate and broad path." He says the "small gate" must be found but the "large" gate accommodates all the rest.

I believe that Christiane is correct in saying that people who vote for people who promote issues that should clearly be seen in contrast to what God would have done, like the murder of millions of infants, homosexual marriage, gender fluidity, and lawlessness,do so out of a sense of "moral conscience" even while professing to be followers of Jesus.

Consistent with that assessment, so will the majority of people enter into "destruction" and be unknown to Jesus at judgment due to their merely doing what their "conscience" tells them is necessary in order to enter into the eternal Kingdom of God.

The "conscience" of those Jewish religious leaders led them to believe they were following the will of God when they crucified Jesus.

Christiane said...

Hello Mr. Kuter,

we do have very different concepts of what 'God-given conscience' is all about.

Rex Ray said...

CHRISTIANE,

Today, I gave a few the story about Hez getting shot by Betty’s father. They passed out Betty’s obituary at her funeral. On the back was a poem she’d written: Heaven by Betty Whitehead February 2019

Do you ever wonder about heaven?
And where you think it might be?
Some folks say it’s right here on earth.
Just look around and you’ll see.

I do look around; I see this earth,
I know the Power Who gave it birth.
I see the wonder, beauty, and grace.
But heaven’s not here, this isn’t the place.

If this were heaven, no one would be sad.
There’d be no bad drugs anywhere to be had.
There’d would be no depression, sickness, or fear.
If this were heaven, they wouldn’t be here.

No, this isn’t heaven; that’s for sure
This is this life, and we must endure.
For a little while, we watch, we wait.
Expectantly awaiting that sacred date.

Then come heaven, rejoicing an praise.
And it last forever; no counting the days.
Imagine the joy, imagine the sight!
When we first glimpse everlasting light.

No, I can’t really say where heaven is,
But I know it’s prepared and ready for me.
Loved ones are there with welcoming arms,
So, wherever it is, it’s where I want to be.

RB Kuter said...

Christiane wrote; "we do have very different concepts of what 'God-given conscience' is all about."

You know what, Christiane, I think that is very obvious and I do not think any less of you for not thinking the same as me. I have a lot of Christian friends who, like you, would have very different concepts on this matter than I. I still love them. God help me to NOT STOP loving people because they don't think the same as me!

This is a discussion on a very lofty issue which involves much about the mystery and wonder of God. We'll just continue to pray for one another, and for ourselves, seeking to clearly hear His voice.

Scott Shaver said...

What is Roman Catholic doctrine concerning the individual and the operation/mechanics of the Holy Spirit? I do not remember, if I ever knew.

Scott Shaver said...

Sounds kinda like RB is saying "Ye must be born again".

RB Kuter said...

Scott, so glad that I sometimes can succeed in communicating my intended point to someone.