"I went to Jerusalem to become acquainted (Gk. istoria) with Cephas" - Paul's words from Galatians 1:18.

Wednesday, June 30, 2021

The Enid Public Library Pushing Gay Pride Week

A Book On Display Celebrating Gay Pride
A Christian mother in Enid, Oklahoma named Kayla Nichols wrote to the board of the Enid Public Library. She requested that the board remove prominent posters and books in the tax-payer-funded library entrance, which celebrates Gay Pride Week. Kayla believes that her children are only properly educated through the teaching of morality. She is opposed to any tax-payer-funded celebrations of immorality that are contrary to her Christian beliefs. 

I agree. And so would John Amos Comenius. You've never heard of Comenius? Be patient, and I'll tell you about the man the United Nations calls "The Founder of Modern Universal Education."

First, I want to show you the responses of some of the people who disagree with Kayla's views about the importance of teaching our children Christian morality, a standard of conduct based on the teachings of the Bible. These folks seem not to believe that same-sex activity is a sin, that is, that same-sex sexual behaviors are violations of God's will and His moral code for mankind. In fact, most seem not to believe in God or a divine standard of morality at all. Though the commentators would tell you that they believe in "inclusion, equality, and love for all," their words about Kayla are revealing.  


Now, back to the guy who agrees with Kayla, John Amos Comenius

Every year the United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organization (UNESCO), hands out the Comenius Medal to the educator who contributes to high-quality teaching, a medal named after John Amos Comenius, the founder of modern education. 

John Comenius believed in the importance of teaching morality to all children. He explained that children should be taught that they can perish before adulthood and that a life lived apart from God is dangerous. Comenius wrote in The Great Didactic
"Apart from God, the source of light and of life, there is nothing but darkness, terror, agony, and everlasting death that knows no end; so that it were better that they had never been born, who stray from God and cast themselves into the pit of eternal destruction." 
Against this background, the Holy Scriptures became central to the public schools founded by Comenius in Europe, England, and eventually the United States. The Holy Scriptures. said Comenius, should be placed higher than all other reading, and all knowledge in the schools should be explained in terms that relate them with the Holy Scriptures. The role of the teacher was to bring students in line with the word of God, putting their hope and trust in them. 

Comenius argued that children should learn to assert their reverence to God practically "through internal contemplation as well as external ceremonies." Teachers should bring students regularly into God’s presence through silent moments of meditation and corporate prayers. They should be taught to keep their love and fear of God alive and follow His instructions for their lives. 

These external ceremonies include attending church services, listening to the teaching of God’s word, personal Bible reading, prayer with bent knees, hymn singing, and participating in the Christian sacraments. The children should also learn that true Christianity is expressed through good deeds. This meant that students were trained in patience, courtesy, justice, and mercy and to make self-sacrifices throughout their lives. 

The newly formed Harvard University asked Comenius to be its first President, but he politely declined to establish more public schools in Europe. That's right. The founder of modern education believed the Bible's moral revelations were essential to the character, progress, and stability of Western Civilization itself.  

Listen to what the Bible says about same-sex behaviors: 
“Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.” (Leviticus 18:22
 
"If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have 
done what is detestable....” (Leviticus 20:13). 
“Detestable,” used in both verses, is a strong word that indicates God's displeasure with sin.
"They rejected God and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator... Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relation for unnatural ones. In the same way, the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error." (Romans 1:25-27)
"Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body." (I Cor. 6:18)

The Holy Scriptures are clear. Same-sex sexual activity and heterosexual sexual activity outside the covenant of marriage are sins against God. 

Of course. Grace should be given to every sinner. Christians believe that celebrating sin is vastly different than loving sinners. Jesus hung out with the prostitutes, thieves, drunkards, and the sexually immoral, but He practiced none of their behaviors. It's possible to be loving, compassionate, and truthful all at the same time.

Americans may disagree over whether same-sex sexual relations, or multiple sexual relations outside of marriage, or other sexual behaviors identified by the Holy Scriptures are sinful. But the Founders of our country were clear. They understood the importance of Christian moral principles when it came to the establishment of our Republic. John Adams wrote to Thomas Jefferson in their later years a letter where Mr. Adams asked a question (first paragraph) and then answered it himself (second paragraph). Pay close attention to what the Founders thought regarding Christianity and the founding of America. 

"Who composed that Army of fine young fellows that was then before my eyes [during the American Revolution]? There were among them, Roman Catholicks, English Episcopalians, Scotch and American Presbyterians, Methodists, Moravians, Anabaptists, German Lutherans, German Calvinists, Universalists, Arians, Priestleyans, Socinians, Independents, Congregationalists, Horse Protestants, House Protestants, Deists and theists; and [Protestants who believe nothing]. Very few however of several of these Species. Never the less all educated in the general Principles of Christianity: and the general Principles of English and American Liberty.

The general Principles, on which the Fathers atchieved Independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful assembly of young gentlemen could unite.... And what were these general Principles? I answer [John Adams wrote]-- the general principles of Christianity, in which all those sects were united: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty, in which all those young men united, and which had united all parties in America, in majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence. Now I will avow, that I then believed, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and those principles of Liberty, as unalterable as human nature and the terrestrial, mundane system." (Letter from John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, June 28, 1813). 

Like our Founding Fathers, Kayla believes and John Comenius believed that the standard of morality taught to our children is found in Christianity's general principles of moral behavior. 

I'm truly puzzled by those who do not understand why Kayla wrote her letter. The Bible teaches clearly that "same-sex" sexual relationships are sins against the Creator and violations of His design for mankind. Many of us in Enid believe what the Bible teaches and do not desire our taxpayer funds used to celebrate what God calls immoral.  That said, we have many friends who practice homosexuality and many friends who practice adultery. However, we also don't want a taxpayer-funded "Adultery Pride Day" or "Pedophilia (Sex with Children) Pride Day" or "Beastiality (Sex with Animals) Pride Day." For that matter, we also don't want the library to teach our children how to lie, how to steal, how to overindulge, much less celebrate these things. We can be friends with all people, but friendship and love do not mean we have to advocate or celebrate violations of God's moral standard for mankind. 

Some might say, "How DARE you compare the actions of two CONSENTING adults with pedophilia! It's LEGAL to have same-sex relations in America!"

Well, of course! Laws change. Same-sex relations and adultery were both illegal in every single state of the union for nearly 200 years. Sexual laws in America changed in the late 1990s and early 2000s.

 However,  in this post, I am writing about morality, not legality. In the next post, I will show you how some in North America are now pushing laws to make it legal to have sex with children. Who is to say that they are wrong in their belief that good comes to the child who is taught how to have consensual sex with an adult, and who can oppose their belief that "sex before 8 is great (their motto)" and beneficial? See the problem? When culture starts moving away from God's moral standard, "Every man does right what is in his own eyes" (Judges 17:6). 

In Roman days, it was thought that consenting sex between adult males and children (pederasty) was natural, pleasurable, and beneficial. Thus, the Roman elite made it legal. But again, does making legal an action make it moral? If not, why not? One man's immorality is another man's pleasure. That’s why God alone sets the standard of human morality. Mankind must listen to Him.

The filthy language, name-calling, and horrific denigration of Kayla (and those of us who think like Kayla) remind me of the graffiti on the walls of a gas station's public restroom. And it proves what Comenius taught about the importance of morality being taught in childhood education. A couple or more generations of Americans seem to have missed that class as evidenced by their lack of class as adults. It's hard to seriously debate someone more familiar with cuss words than Comenius. 

That said, I know where the denigrators of Kayla are coming from, and I feel compassion for them. They're empty and don't yet know it, but they will in time. They have no understanding of the history of Western Civilization and universal education. Most of all, they reject Christian morality and God's standards because they don't like it. 

Be kind to them. Be loving to them. But most of all, never bend when it comes to the truth.
Love and respect every immoral person who violates the moral standard of the Holy Scriptures (eg., God's Law), but always oppose any tax-payer-funded forced celebrations of mankind's immorality.

54 comments:

Christiane said...

"Be kind to them."


Our Lord reached towards outcasts and towards those on the margins of society, and He cared for them. For people who 'born different' from others, and I have one in my own family, 'kindness' is not something the world offers them usually.

So Christian people have a chance to 'stand out' from a world that is a sharp, judgmental place where someone already wounded might be further driven to despair. It is a holy work of Christian people to come near, to 'be with', to listen with patience and kindness and unremitting hope for the wounded among us whose burdens are greater than we can know ourselves.

For those who would minister to people who are 'different', people to whom this world has not been kind, I can offer some words written by the half-sister of my friend's daughter who is 'different', these"

"Let me stop being that thing against which anything, everything, can break"

Wade's words 'Be kind to them' . . . that is advice to remember, yes.

RB Kuter said...

I was strolling down one of the most famous "red light" districts in Thailand with a group of volunteers and local Thai Christians passing out tracts and praying for those we met. There were uninterrupted open bars with dancing girls and men inviting passers by to enter and party.

One of our volunteers from America asked me how in the world men could go to the depths of depravity to be sexually involved with male prostitutes, or prostitutes at all.

I told him my guess was that homosexual intercourse was simply a deeper step into the sin depraved behavior of those who had grown bored with unabated heterosexual behavior. I proposed to my friend that pedophilia would be the only logical step to take once the homosexual became bored.

It's all just a regression into the black hole of sin and rebellion against God. Efforts at "Normalizing" the deviant behavior should be anticipated.

What's most troubling are those churches and professing "Christians" who join in the "normalization" efforts.

Scott Shaver said...

On the other hand Christianne, there's only so much that can be done with folks who want both God and Christians to die, or to reshape God in an LBGTQ+ mold.

Bob Cleveland said...

This certainly underscores the fact that parents are to be the biggest educators pf their children. I was raised with real revulsion in my heart for unnatural sexual attractions or actions. As an adult, that has been tempered by the Holy Ghost within, so I do know what my Spiritual obligations are. But it all began in my childhood home.

Fix that and this other stuff would wither and blow away, methinks.

Scott Shaver said...

Thanks Bob.

"So I do know what my spiritual obligations are..." Resonates with me and are words I find especially encouraging.

"The hand that rocks the cradle is the hand that rules the world."

Scott Shaver said...

When was homosexuality officially removed as a mental disorder from the "scientific" lists? Within the last 40 years?

Christiane said...

Hello Bob Cleveland,

My mother's family (VERY Southern) held on to some ideas and attitudes that today are seen as racist (and they are). But I always thought, in time, over generations perhaps, there will come some changes for the better.

Were it not for my father from Canada, perhaps I should have also been fed much the same diet of racist opinions as my mother's people were raised on and that thought keeps me humble when, these days, I see those who are openly racist and leaning 'white supremacist'. But for the grace of God, there go I.
My father raised us to have respect for others as he had been raised.

Come, Holy Spirit,
And Thou shalt renew the face of the Earth.

I sometimes think that much of our many 'finger-pointing' and pride-filled attitudes towards 'the others' may be a product of very early childhood conditioning;
but the Holy Spirit can help us break those chains, thank God.

Rex Ray said...

Wade,

I’m surprised CHRISTIANE hasn’t been all over you for spelling Roman Catholics; Roman Catholiks. :)

You quoted Leviticus 20:13: “If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable…”

Why didn’t you quote all the verse?

“If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense.” (Leviticus 20:12 NLT)

You quoted that Jesus hung out with prostitutes, thieves, drunkards, and immoral…” But no where in the Bible does it say Jesus hung out with homosexuals. I believe the Living translation of (2 Peter 2:6) states the truth:

“Later, he turned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into heaps of ashes and blotted them off the face of the earth, making them an example for all the ungodly in the FUTURE to look back upon and FEAR.”

Celeste said...

The American Psychiatric Association voted to removed homosexuality from the DSM in the 1970's.

My faith tradition is the United Methodist Church, but I fell away from the church for a few decades. I came back to a church that is on the verge of splitting for the LGBTQ issue, and I am torn by that.

I was in graduate school when Finis Crutchfield died. I was attending St. Paul's UMC in Houston (Reverend Crutchfield belonged to that church when he retired). He had been a bishop in the UMC (Houston district). He died of AIDS. At the time of his death, he was "outed" by the gay community, as the mechanism of death and explanation (casual exposure) was feared to do more damage in the early time of HIV when gay people were being shunned because fear of that virus. For reasons I do not understand, that really stuck in my brain.

Now, as I return to the church, the UM Church is on the verge of splitting over the homosexuality/LGBTQ issue. The UM church in the US has at least one openly gay bishop. The split of the church is an issue being pushed by the LGBTQ community.

I recently listened to a SS class member suggest that we read the Bible, especially the Old Testament, too tangentially, that we try to put it smack into modern life when some of the word choices truly have different meaning and different context. He suggested we do best by getting the Jewish/Hebrew interpretation of words. When I tried this for Leviticus, it suggests that this is not about homosexuality because thew Hebrew words refer to man and male rather than man and man. That explanation really made everything as clear as mud for me. But then, there is Romans Chapter 1.....

My view/sense on the upcoming split in the Methodist Church? The Church has been corrupted by allowing the politic of man to enter the sanctuary. The minister draped in a rainbow stole feels misplaced. Perhaps, I am wrong in that, though.

My view of gay pride week/month in the Enid Library (or any institution charged with educating our children)? The library is corrupting our children by forcing this sort of sex education on them. We need to practice love and respect for all -- the enfranchised and the dis-enfranchised (I am NOT referring to sexual love), but why do we teach children about sex, when they are too young to understand?

Celeste said...

Rex Ray, your comment sent me to 2 Peter 2.....elsewhere in that chapter (NIV, "a discussion of false teachers and their destruction"): "18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”"

Several of the political commentators that I enjoy have been speaking a lot about liberty versus licentiousness. There is this idea that "liberty" means freedom. They argue that this great experiment called the United States of America was founded on Judeo-Christian ethics and morals. Broadly stated, this is the idea the culture and community is knitted together in pursuit of the higher good -- the pursuit of Godly deeds. When we lose that, we fall into licentiousness, the pursuit of nature's gratification but that may make us no better than the animals. (My interpretation of their words, perhaps poorly stated)

If we live our lives for no purpose other than to satisfy ME, then we can fall into a life of pursuing only pleasure. If we have no purpose to provide for ourselves, to provide for our families to provide for our community as a part of a greater road to please God, where does that leave us? The example that is frequently given is the heroin addict. People frequently fall into that life, seeking an escape, seeking gratification, but the pursuit of that gratification becomes a master, and certainly the heroin addict is not someone that I would ever look at and see a person that is "free." They are a slave to that drug, and if they don't get it, the withdrawal can kill them. I have a friend who died early of alcoholism. He turned to alcohol as an escape from the pain of an abused childhood and from the pain of depression. He was a functional alcoholic (making discoveries in particle physics that revolutionized non-technology), but he was a slave to that drug and it killed him early. His escape became his master.

Scott Shaver said...

Hey Rex:

Glad you searched the scripture for any tangible evidence of Jesus interacting with homosexuals or addressing those in that time period who may have...fit the bill. However, the bible is not the diary of Jesus.

You and I must have embarked recently on a similar review of the New Testament.

nicole sallee said...

Celeste, one of the reasons I had to teach my very young girls about sex at an early age was because they were hearing inappropriate things at school and even from cousins at family gatherings. Kids are hearing their parents talk about sexual acts at home and even watching porn at an early age because of parents or older brothers and sisters. I taught by girls about sex because I wanted to control the narrative. I wanted to teach them and lay a foundation before the world did.

nicole sallee said...

My opinion:

There is no end to views we all disagree on. Truth education starts in the home. If I educate my children on the truths I want them to believe and live those truths out for them to see, they will be better prepared for the world’s truth. If they choose the world’s truth over God’s truth, then they will have natural consequences. My job is not to censor life, but to teach them about that life and why it may be harmful to them. Teach them that it may bring depression, anxiety, physical pain, heartache, confusion, emptiness, and loss. Then when they are out from under my roof, they will have the freedom to choose. They are God’s children first and I have to trust that the Holy Spirit has their heart.

Rex Ray said...

Celeste,

You said, “…that may make us no better than the animals.”

In a way, if people lived like animals, they’d obey God’s laws better.

Animals only mate their own kind. And some like doves’ mate for life. (If one dies, the other never mates again.)

Christiane said...

I believe that a parent's example is the greatest influence on a young child.
We may talk the talk all we want to, but children see and hear as observers of their parents who model for them 'how to live'. So even before the child has command of the meaning of words and the ability to speak clearly, the child has taken in 'lessons' by observing parents' non-verbal 'signals'. This is where the fruit of the Holy Spirit operates with great effectiveness: a parent who is kind, and patient has the greater advantage to 'teach' the little one, to help the little one's Christian formation even before 'words' are spoken. At that stage, even one small act of kindness imprints its 'message' on the child's psyche in a way that words alone are powerless to do. So the fruit of the Holy Spirit 'teaches' without words when the parent points the little one to Christ the Lord by modeling actively the use the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Scott Shaver said...

Good words Christianne.

Not all parents have access to the Holy Spirit as not all have RECEIVED Christ.

Give your kids the Gospel and pray that, at an accountable age, they too will receive by faith the "Paracletos" and be saved.

Rex Ray said...

CHRISTIANE,

What you said about raising children is true. It reflects: “Direct your children onto the right path, and when they are older, they will not leave it.” (Proverbs 22:6 NLT)

Rex Ray said...

An example:

When we were very young; if we saw a cigarette butt on the sidewalk, Dad had us to smash it with our shoes and say: “Dirty old cigarette!”

I never could quit smoking because I never started.

Christiane said...

I believe that the Holy Spirit goes where He wills.
I believe that the power of the Paschal mysteries of Our Lord to reach 'the lost' are far greater than any human restrictions we may have thought were limiting them.

I suspect that the Holy Spirit (God, in the Third Person) is a Force so powerful that even the smallest act of kindness He inspires in His creatures may have eternal consequences in the lives of all concerned.

I wonder why people try to put God into a 'box'. His ways are far above our ways and His understanding is far above our human understanding. If we would know something about God's characteristics, all the theologians in the world cannot point to them as clearly as the way the Holy Spirit points us to Christ, the Revealer of God.

REX RAY, good that you never started smoking. Your father likely was not a smoker either. Nor was mine. Children watch and they see and they hear. That they are impressionable is a given. We will answer to God for how we raise our little ones.

Victorious said...

This post has been nagging at me since it was posted. I might be waaay off base in my thinking about it, but I'll share my thoughts nonetheless.... Feel free to correct my conclusions.

I'm not sure what is meant by the word "pushing" in the title. To me that word implies force of some nature. If the posters themselves cannot "force" or "push" another, it's feasible they are merely bringing an awareness of a problem or situation. Right? For example, when black folk march and carry posters, they are not literally forcing others to do something, but endeavoring to bring an awareness of a segment of the population who feel discriminated against in some areas of daily living. Or the suffragists who marched and openly protested for women's right to vote.

Does being a homosexual always involve sexual intimacy or can one identify as a homosexual or transgender without participating in sexual acts? Aren't there heterosexuals who do not engage in sexual intimacy? I remember Kristin (Chris) Beck who served for 20 yrs. as a Navy Seal and no one suspected he was a transgender until he came out following his retirement from the military.

So...is the primary reason for this post to provide proof that homosexuality is detestable according to scripture and therefore should not be "promoted" by posters and/or books, or is it simply because of the cost to tax payers in a public venue.?

More about this later....

Scott Shaver said...

Christianne:

Jesus did say the Spirit (ruach/pneuma) goes "where it wiil" In Genesis The Spirit (ruach) brooded over the "face of the deep".

But The Spirit, The Father and The SON (in the flesh) say:

"YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN".

All of the "smallest" and greatest "acts of kindness" outside Christ mean little if our righteousness OUTSIDE Him is "filthy rags".

Again, the reason for The Son and Saviour's declaration as recorded IN HOLY SCRIPTURE is that "YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN".

Scott Shaver said...

Christianne:

Our "faith tradition" teaches us that even though all mankind possesses the imago dei, not all are PRESERVED BY it.

The imago dei is like a seed that never germinates, dead and decaying in the ground, unless it is quickened by the Pneuma (Spirit).

YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN as surely as a seed must sprout to produce from the vine.

Scott Shaver said...

There WERE some consequences due to THE FALL and some mutual errors in the Garden of Eden.

Scott Shaver said...

πŸ‘

Donald Johnson said...

I am disappointed in Wade's claim that "Scripture is clear" followed by 2 verses in translation. SBC slaveholders in 1860 argued that "Scripture is clear" that slaves were to obey their masters and Scripture does say that, but most agree there is more to discuss.

Furthermore, by claiming something in the ancient text of Scripture is "clear" you are making an implicit claim that any other interpretation that yours must be unfaithful, which I think is somewhat arrogant. That is, it is one thing to claim that one has studied Scripture and come to the conclusion that you believe something (as it then becomes something that you need to act faithfully about unless and until you come to a different conclusion) and claiming that any different interpretation is unfaithful.

Scott Shaver said...

Victorious:

Can't speak for Wade or others, but I say BOTH.

When I see OUR public tax dollars promoting a worldview or lifestyle engaged in by roughly six percent of the population.

Nevertheless, here in Houston, parents have had to resist things like Gay Day or Drag Queen Story Time at the public libraries...right down to the rainbow flag hoisted to the top of public school flag poles.

That's without even touching the moral or spiritual aspects of such societal imbalance.

Scott Shaver said...

Worked foe us Nicole.πŸ‘

Victorious said...

Grace should be given to every sinner. Christians believe that celebrating sin is vastly different than loving sinners.

The vast difference is IMO that THEY have every right to celebrate just being themselves and not being discriminated against for that freedom. It's unrealistic to expect gays and transgenders to see their lifestyle as immoral or sinful. When we verbalize our disgust and/or preach about their immorality, they might be justified in returning the gesture by recognizing the resistance to their lifestyle as discrimination.

The film "Green Book" tells the true story of a black, well respected pianist who was much in demand. As he was touring the South, he entered the restaurant (for the very wealthy elite) and following his performance, wanted to eat dinner. BUT, he was told that blacks were not allowed to dine at this restaurant, but thanked him for a beautiful performance and complimented his talent. Imagine! He was allowed to entertain the white masses, but could not dine with them. He even had to hire a body guard IIRC, for his protection in the south.

You see, the "Green Book" was provided to blacks so they could refer to the places they could feel free to be black! That was somewhere in the 1960' I think.

The most valuable lesson parents could teach their children imo is that people are different! Some think it's ok to steal; some think it's ok to murder but also know that murder for self-protection is different according to the law. Some people are black, others are white; some tell lies and others think that's wrong; some want to marry and have children, others choose to remain single. Some believe in the death penalty, others don't. On and on and on....

People are different! They have a right to celebrate and we have to respect that right whether or not we agree with them. That imo is a valuable lesson for us to teach our children and to practice ourselves without feeling the need to preach...unless we are asked for our opinion.

It has always bothered me that Christians have two favorite sins that they preach about consistently; homosexuality and ....get ready....abortion! Scripture tells there are other sins that are detestable or an abomination:

Pro 6:16  There are six things which the LORD hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 
Pro 6:17  Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, And hands that shed innocent blood, 
Pro 6:18  A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that run rapidly to evil, 
Pro 6:19  A false witness who utters lies, And one who spreads strife among brothers. 

Should we approach someone in the congregation or at the supermarket and let them know that we see their haughty eyes and they are an abomination to God? When we catch a friend in a lie, should we quote scripture about lying whether or not that person is a believer?

My apologies for rambling....but I just think some Christians are the most critical people who would rather express our beliefs without respecting theirs.

Wade Burleson said...

Victorious,

"Should we approach someone in the congregation or at the supermarket and let them know that we see their haughty eyes and they are an abomination to God? When we catch a friend in a lie, should we quote scripture about lying whether or not that person is a believer?"

Of course not. Nor should we do the same with homosexuality.

But on the other hand, I would object to tax-payer-funded "Haughty Eyes Pride Month" or "LYING Celebration Month" where the LIBRARY sat my kids down and taught them to embrace their haughtiness and pride.

Blessings.

Wade Burleson said...

Donald Johnson,

Much respect, sir.

It is clear to me. I'd love for you to show me how it isn't, and I'll change my mind on a dime when convinced from Scripture where I am wrong.

Blessings.

Victorious said...

But on the other hand, I would object to tax-payer-funded "Haughty Eyes Pride Month" or "LYING Celebration Month" where the LIBRARY sat my kids down and taught them to embrace their haughtiness and pride

I don't have the opportunity to see the posters that were at the library, but I rather doubt the purpose of them was to sit children down and teach them to "embrace" homosexuality. It was, most likely, an effort to encourage on-lookers to take note of the freedom homosexuals are celebrating during the month of June. They should be embraced as individuals.

Wade, it still seems that the "tax-payer-funded" aspect is what you find most objectionable about their celebratory posters. It's not likely you would ever find a celebratory poster about lying or haughty eyes since I've not, in my 45+ years of being a Christian heard those topics in a sermon even though scripture is clear that they are an abomination.

As I said earlier, homosexuality and abortion are the abominations that raise our dander to the exclusion of the others listed in Proverbs 6.

Scott Shaver said...

Deflection Victorious. Deflection.

Christiane said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Celeste said...

Nicole, I did not mean to criticize parents teaching their children about sex. By the "we" I was referring to schools and libraries , etc. Yes, I can see that parents are forced to teach children early. I wish you didn't have to do that.

Scott Shaver said...

Donald.

Are you actually comparing persons who choose deviant sexual lifestyles with those (blacks) who bled, suffered and struggled for equal civill rights in America?

Not only will many blacks find that insulting, it's a nuanced distortion of the body of scriptural teaching on the subject of homosexuality which is indeed "very clear" to those with "eyes to see" and "ears to hear".

Christiane said...

pointing to certain sins might be like using a kind of 'code' used to 'identify' one's group as opposed to another group

if so, it's a type of communication, a short-cut instead of a dialogue

if people find that they are engaging in communicating using 'code' for that reason, it might not bring in a lot of converts, no;
but they will be able to identify those who are not like themselves more quickly and easily, and they will be more comfortable with their own group

- I see this as 'staying in the shallow waters'

better to point people to Christ instead of pointing people to their sins
Better to acknowledge oneself also as a sinner in need of God's mercy, better yes, but much less comfortable








Rex Ray said...

Scott Shaver,

I believe a T-shirt that was given to my brother would suit you very well.

T-shirt had:

I’m not arguing with you, I’m explaining why you’re wrong
😊

Christiane said...

REX RAY,

Thanks for the great war story.

I found this:
https://youtu.be/yqL9cTs26EA

Scott Shaver said...

Christianne:

Why would we want to "point people to Chrisr" unless we also understood ourselves to be sinners first?

Preach the gospel, in season and out. That's what I think makes many "uncomfortable".

Scott Shaver said...

Celebate "homosexuals"?

Why bother with the tag?

Scott Shaver said...

Size XLT Rex.

Will send it to James Merritt.

Wade Burleson said...

Victorious,

You write, "Wade, it still seems that the "tax-payer-funded" aspect is what you find most objectionable about their celebratory posters. It's not likely you would ever find a celebratory poster about lying or haughty eyes since I've not, in my 45+ years of being a Christian heard those topics in a sermon even though scripture is clear that they are an abomination. As I said earlier, homosexuality and abortion are the abominations that raise our dander to the exclusion of the others listed in Proverbs 6."

In general, I agree with you. HOWEVER, I have taught Proverbs 6 (one of my favorite series of all time) and have never taught a series about homosexuality, so I'm not in the camp with those pastors who avoid the topic of Proverbs 6 and hammer sexual sins.

That said, I stand by what I originally said many of us do not want a standard of morality contrary to God's standard taught our children through tax-payer-funded institutions like a public library. I'd be writing the same thing if our children were taught to lie, to steal, to overindulge, and other actions (listed in Proverbs 6) and called to celebrate doing all these things.

I haven't seen the celebration of Proverbs 6 sins either. :)

Wade Burleson said...

Scott,

You write:

"Celebate "homosexuals"? Why bother with the tag?"

You're nailing the issue here. HOWEVER, I understand what someone who uses the term "celebate homosexual" is attempting to say. "I struggle with desires to have sex with same-sex individuals, but I refuse to act on it."

I happen to agree with you, but understand what they are TRYING to say.

I refuse to call myself "celebate adulterer." Though a Christian may struggle with desires to have sex with a person of the opposite sex outside of my marriage BUT REFRAIN (that is, be "celebate" in terms of adultery), that Christian should NEVER identify as an adulterer. He or she is a "child of God, a saint, a blood-bought redeemed sinner with a FATHER who loves me and gave His Son that I might live forever," and they will not have sex with other people because it's no longer who they are by the grace of God. If they do fail (as King David did), it is a saint who sins - and saints feel the shame and guilt of their sin because its against their nature. A dog returns to its vomit, but a dog turned human tastes the past vomit and gets nauseated. It's a change of heart and nature.

Scott Shaver said...

Helps me put it into individual perspective, Wade. Thanks.

Christiane said...

"this thought should keep us humble: we are sinners but we do not know how great. He alone knows Who died for our sins." (John Henry Newman)

Wade Burleson said...

Victorious,

I apologize. I missed your question earlier. You asked, "So...is the primary reason for this post to provide proof that homosexuality is detestable according to scripture and therefore should not be "promoted" by posters and/or books, or is it simply because of the cost to tax payers in a public venue.?"

The issue is tax-payer-funded entities in the public venue teaching that same-sex sexual relationships are moral and good, and that God affirms them rather than prohibits them.

Finally, you bring up a good point. SSA (same-sex-attraction) is not sin. I have OSA (opposite-sex attraction). That's not sinning. Acting out on SSA or OSA outside of marriage is sin, according to God. The only issue is that this community (and America since its Founding) has been a country that worked to teach children the moral standard of the Scriptures, not the moral standard of 1960s culture. :)

Blessings!
I

Victorious said...

Wade, these words; pushing (in the title), teaching, celebrating, etc. are assumptions and/or insinuations unless there is evidence of these actions taking place in the library. The poster that is shown gives no such evidence imo. If I saw a notice of a time, place, and age group being invited to a teaching, that MIGHT be different. On the other hand, unless one could actually see the the planned program, it remains merely an assumption on the topics to be covered/taught.

As I mentioned above, children will learn a valuable lesson if they are taught that people are different and discrimination based on those differences is wrong. Acceptance, not necessarily agreement, is what we all need to practice. If that was the lesson learned from the poster, I for one wouldn't complain about tax payer's money being used.

Christiane said...

Victorious and Wade,

I hope Christian people never put their young children through something like THIS:

https://youtu.be/auxISQ620ds

teaching a child to hate is not a joke, and a four-year old is still in process of forming his personality;
so this kind of child abuse is also 'extreme'

there are ways to teach our young in a far better manner than this about the Christian journey - this kind of video breaks my heart for the sake of the children who are observing all this and for the child taking part . . . they are not 'to blame', no, they are innocent children;
but the adults who are in a Church should know better than this

the damage done is immeasurable

Christiane said...

Another horror show in the teaching of hatred to children:

https://youtu.be/wiYFRmNuz9k

it is said that you can only have the amount of love for Jesus Christ that you have for the person for whom you hold the most contempt.

For those assuming their own righteousness and preaching hatred of 'the others' and teaching this hatred to children,
I am fearful, unless 'they know not what they do'.

For these people are not serving Christ, but the 'divider', instead.

The trailer for Jesus Camp is one of the worst of this kind of child abuse as it shows adults attempting to imprint hatred for 'the others' at a vulnerable age where the children are very impressionable. Very sad video.

Scott Shaver said...

Christianne:

Classic liberal left hit piece. Garbage IMO.

Scott Shaver said...

If you want to talk about the church impressing "hatred" let's talk about the RCC's track record in Belfast Northern Ireland as a historical precursor.

Scott Shaver said...

Christianne:

The RCC's passivity toward and support of terrorism in Northern Ireland has been overshadowed in recent years only by the scandal of priests sexually abusing children.

See, "evangelicals" ain't so bad after all😎

Scott Shaver said...

Christianne:

The Roman Catholic Church sent CHILDREN on CRUSADES to take back the Holy Land. Nearly ALL died or were enslaved. Care to comment on that?

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