"I went to Jerusalem to become acquainted (Gk. istoria) with Cephas" - Paul's words from Galatians 1:18.

Thursday, April 29, 2021

This Burleson Cousin Disagrees About Uncle Rufus

My name is Wade Burleson. I share a great-grandparent (4x) with Dr. Rufus C. Burleson, the two-time President of Baylor University (1851-1861, 1886-1897) and the man responsible for moving Baylor University to Waco, Texas.

Recently, Baylor University’s Commission on Historic Campus Representations recommended that the Baylor campus statue of Rufus Burleson be relocated and the name of Burleson Quadrangle be changed. Baylor has succumbed to the "cancel culture" Marxist movement of Intersectionality and Critical Race Theory. My wife and I met while attending Baylor University, and we would often sit on the benches positioned in Burleson Quadrangle in the evenings talking. 

Two of my distant cousins, Blake and Burt Burleson, both affiliated with Baylor University and the Board of Contributors, wrote "a letter to Uncle Rufus" defending Baylor's decision. I respect my cousins and know they have Christian pastoral hearts and wish to do what is best for the school and for people in general, but I believe affirming the "cancel culture" movement is like a doctor who cuts off the leg of his only child because his brother's child is an amputee and the doctor wishes to be sympathetic with family.

God made peoples from all nations of one blood. We are family. Racism is wrong. But to "remove statues," and "erase the past" because of the sins of our fathers, while consenting to the systemic deconstruction of America's political, religious, and educational institutions, is similar to the citizens of Troy welcoming the Trojan Horse within their walls. What seems innocent, peaceable, and just, is in reality the means by which our nation will be destroyed from within. 

In a friendly spirit of familial love and respect, I disagree with my Burleson cousins' letter affirming canceling Rufus C. Burleson's existence at Baylor University. Their letter is in italics, one paragraph at a time, with my response below each paragraph.


DEAR UNCLE RUFUS:

(Burt and Blake write): For nearly 50 years now, we have walked past your statue in Burleson Quadrangle with pride in your providential role (and that of Aunt Georgia) in leading Baylor University and the State of Texas in its early days. Because of your visionary leadership in establishing higher education west of the Mississippi, hundreds of thousands of men and women have graduated from this, the oldest university in continuous existence in Texas. For 176 years Baylor graduates have served church and state as doctors, lawyers, nurses, educators, mayors, legislators, pastors, social workers, entrepreneurs, artists and scientists, and through hundreds of other professions. When Texas hero Sam Houston became a Christian, he asked you — his friend and pastor — to baptize him. In our Baylor offices hangs a painting of that auspicious occasion, undertaken by Dallas artist Erwin Hearne, whose work often focused on Baptists and their quest for religious liberty in America. As we pray daily with our students, staff, faculty and parents beneath that painting, we are often aware of your presence. When the State of Texas honored you and Aunt Georgia with historical markers in 2009, we had the privilege to unveil those tributes.

(Wade Burleson writes): Uncle Rufus, I echo all that my two cousins have written. I and am grateful for your visionary leadership in establishing higher education in Texas, as well as your personal ministry to General Sam Houston. The State of Texas was right in honoring you and Aunt Georgia with historical markers in 2009, and my cousins were also right in unveiling those tributes. What’s happened during these last twelve years?

(Burt and Blake write): With you as our beacon, we were inspired to become Baptist pastors, chaplains, missionaries and educators. Today, we can see your statue through our office windows. When we preach from the Bible in Waco Hall’s chapel services and teach about it in Tidwell Bible Building classrooms, we are reminded that that book — proclaiming that God cares equally for all — is held in the hand of your statue in Burleson Quadrangle. We’ve drawn inspiration from you and Aunt Georgia for your commitment to the education of women. Thank you for admitting women to Baylor during a time when they were not even allowed to vote. Each day when we walk by Georgia Burleson Hall and read the words “Dedicated to Female Education and Piety” inscribed on the cornerstone, we are reminded to treat all of our students with dignity and equality.

(Wade Burleson writes): I, too, honor all that you did for women in education. Your understanding that leadership is based on gifting, not gender, and that women should be provided every educational opportunity afforded to men, though novel in your day, is now standard practice in our day. Thank you.

(Burt and Blake write): While no black student graduated from Baylor until 1968, long after you had left us (in 1901), we thought that you must have led the way in a campaign to lift African Americans out of an intellectual wasteland imposed on them by slavery since, after the Civil War, you rode on horseback all over Texas giving speeches to encourage towns to support free public education that included the children of newly freed slaves. And you helped raise money to establish Marshall-based Bishop College for African Americans in 1881. Bishop College provided many African Americans — whose parents and grandparents had been forbidden under slavery laws to even read the very Bible in your statue’s hand — with a post-secondary education. So, it is with profound sadness that we write you today — you who are now beyond the veil — having recently learned more about your time on our campus and your role in Texas politics after the Civil War.

(Wade Burleson writes): My cousins, Uncle Rufus, rightly acknowledge the effort you put into ensuring the educational opportunities for freed slaves. Though a product of your time, you rose above the prevailing prejudice and did all you could to assist our black brothers and sisters. Again, "Thank you!" I, too, have known of your role in Texas politics after the Civil War, but unlike my cousins, I am not as perturbed about politics in the 1860s and 1870s. As Washington Irving once said, "The idol of today pushes the hero of yesterday out of our recollection; and will, in turn, be supplanted by his successor of tomorrow." 

(Burt and Black write):  We were born in the 1950s into a family and an East Texas city that held racist views about African Americans, views that we now know you intentionally and systematically helped to advance in Waco and beyond. As we grew into adults and read the Bible more carefully, we abandoned the racist views that we had been taught from family members, friends, neighbors, schoolteachers, pastors, business leaders and elected officials. Now we know that through your sermons, writings and public statements you helped to ensure that generations of African Americans were relegated to second-class citizenship. You carried your Bible with you as you traveled as chaplain for the Fifteenth Texas Infantry Regiment, Company B, during the Civil War. And you encouraged Baylor students and alumni to join the Confederacy in that bloody fight. More than 250 Baylor Bears heeded your call and joined the South’s campaign to keep human beings enslaved, presumably forever. And we now know that your efforts to raise money for Bishop College were done so that once black students were educated, they could be sent back to Africa! Furthermore, it is documented that you owned a slave, a man named Elias.

(Wade Burleson writes): I would ask that you forgive your nephews for their unintentional impertinence. George Washington owned slaves. Thomas Jefferson owned slaves. 17 of the 55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention owned a total of about 1,400 slaves. Of the first 12 U.S. presidents, eight were slave owners. These men are our nation's heroes. Do we do remove and hide the Constitution for the sins of our Founding Fathers? Do we demolish the Republic? Do we call for the overthrow of the Supreme Court? Yes, our Founding Fathers and our fathers made awful mistakes, but the system established by our Founding Fathers made the United States "The Land of Opportunity" for all people. Yes, Uncle Rufus, you fought a Civil War that ended slavery, and you were on the losing side (as an aside, I thank the Good Lord for that point). People ought to be taught your sins but to hold people today accountable for your sins of 170 years ago is an act being used by neo-Marxists to tear apart our country and remove our foundations. To divide and conquer is part of the art of war, and our enemies look on the United States with glee as they watch citizens seek to destroy the United States' culture and heritage.  My cousins mean well, but they don't see that when we "erase America's past," we "destroy America's future." Teach the past and learn from it. 

(Blake and Burt write): Forgive us, dear Uncle, but we must ask you how you could have used the Bible to humiliate and to subjugate fellow human beings. How could you promote the “Lost Cause” — the concept of divinely inspired white nationalism — once the war ended? Because of your revisionist history, we were taught in school in the 1970s that the war had nothing to do with slavery. We read in state-sanctioned textbooks that the Civil War was fought over “states’ rights.” Regrettably, some schoolbooks in the South still indoctrinate our children with these lies. By your hand and others like you, millions of African Americans were held in educational, political and economic bondage for much of the 20th century. Forgive us, dear Uncle, but we must ask: How could you have read the same Bible as we read, yet preach what you did?

(Wade Burleson writes): Forgive me, dear Uncle, but I think I know the answer on how you could use the Bible to "subjugate fellow human beings" (eg 'condone slavery') and how you could promote the "Lost Cause." I don't mean to presume, but I think after the LORD called you home in death, He probably showed you the mistake you made in interpreting the Bible. Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus Christ or the prophets call for "white" or "Jewish" supremacy. On the contrary, Jesus is "the Savior of the world," and the prophets remind us that the LORD declares: "Are you not all as children of the Ethiopians unto me. Have not I brought up Israel out of the land of Egypt? and the Philistines from Caphtor, and the Syrians from Kir?" (Amos 9:7). God establishes the boundaries of the nations, and all the nations are His. Racism is wrong, but America's national identity built on our shared values, culture, and pride in "God and country" is something we ought never to take for granted. I cannot - I will not - stand by as people attempt to destroy America and our political, religious, and educational institutions. Yes, Uncle Rufus, you made mistakes. But we have learned from those mistakes and made progress. I apologize to you for the errors being made by this generation. My hope is that we awake to our errors before it is too late.

(Blake and Burt write): Our hearts are heavy as we write what we now know to be a more complete truth about our family’s past. Perhaps we should have taken the time long ago to explore fully our history and Baylor’s history. We pray it’s not too late to make amends to our African American brothers and sisters and to all who have suffered from this sinful scourge of slavery, racism, segregation and discrimination.

(Wade Burleson writes:) Uncle Rufus, though my cousins mean well, please forgive them for not practicing Christian grace. If we removed the photograph of all our loved ones who have caused hurt in us and others, there would be no family photos left on the wall. Our generation is soft.  I'm concerned that soon the United States of America could be at war with outside enemies who want nothing more than to divide us from within before they seek to conquer us from without. I'm doing all I can to wake up the citizens of the United States before it's too late. Blessings, Uncle Rufus, and we Burleson cousins look forward to seeing you again and being as transparent about our sins as we are about yours. 

91 comments:

Scott Shaver said...

There is a verse from the Old Testament in which the children of Israel were told not to remove the landmarks their forefathers had set.

Today, "cancel culture" is demanding that history itself must be torn down and burned to the ground.

Rex Ray said...

Scott Shaver,

You said, "cancel culture" is demanding that history itself must be torn down and burned to the ground.

What do you think about yesterdays Associated Press article?

“New York – Federal agents on Wednesday raided Rudy Giuliani’s Manhattan home and office, seizing computers and cellphones of former President, Donald Trump’s personal lawyer. The warrant came from the top levels of the Justice Department. Giuliani took on a leading role in disputing the election results of Biden being elected President.”

Tucker Carlson interviewed Giuliani on his show yesterday. Giuliani told the seven men that their warrant said to take all electronic devices, and demanded they take Hunter Biden’s but they wouldn’t do it.


Scott, if the new ‘powers that be’ can invade Giuliani’s home, who’s going to keep them from invading ours?

Rex Ray said...

P.S.

Between us, I’d bet Wade’s home would be first. No joke.

Neil Cameron (One Salient Oversight) said...

"Rufus Burleson was a slaveholder and enlisted in the Confederate army, serving as a chaplain. As president of Baylor (1851-1861) and subsequently Waco University, he encouraged faculty and male students over 18 to join the fight against what he called “Abolition despotism.” He was a prominent supporter of the “Lost Cause” movement following the war."

So in theory, the statue of Rufus Burleson is there to remember him and celebrate his memory.

Scott Shaver said...

Rex:

I think the Biden Administration represents the antithesis of capable leadership.

Wade Burleson said...

One Salient Oversight, I believe your eye strain from your photo is a direct result of spending too much time on Wikapedia. Reading official biographies and research even on scholarly sites like JSTOR give far better context.

Scott Shaver said...

Afraid of a statue?

We certainly have a lot of "lost causes" dictating social policy today in America.

Jack Okie said...

Matthew 7:1 seems to get overlooked a lot these days, doesn't it? While I still would encourage the priest to attend to the injured man ultimately helped by the Samaritan, his reluctance is understandable if you know the background. As for slavery and the Civil War, how do we judge people for not knowing something? How do you know what you don't know? Should we criticize all of the doctors of that time because they weren't conversant with the germ theory of disease?

Slaves were mentioned in the New Testament, but I'm unaware of any condemnation of slavery. Does that mean God was OK with it? Perhaps we are intended to figure out some things on our own.

Wade Burleson said...

Jack Okie,

Excellent questions.

Bob Cleveland said...

How much of what we decide, or do, or avoid, is based on what future society might find objectionable? If we tried to conform our thoughts and actions to how future society might view them, we would have to stop thinking and doing.

No thanks. So let's stop looking back a century to find out something we object to now.

Neil Cameron (One Salient Oversight) said...

Any JSTOR articles on Rufus?

Juliechase480@gmail.com said...

Forgive and forget slavery is a sin like all other sins and Christ forgave at Calvary. We shouldn't judge we sin to.

Wade Burleson said...

"Any JSOR articles on Rufus?"

354 to be exact.

Christiane said...

It isn't that we can't 'go back' and change the past so much as we need to understand how our present time is affected by the past:

generational pain is handed down

in the time of slavery,
there were TWO groups of people who were severely wounded:
first, it was of course those whose humanity was not celebrated
and secondly, it was the people they enslaved




Scott Shaver said...

"Generational pain is handed down"

Especially when there are fortunes to made and political systems to be deconstructed.

Some folks just can't make it without keeping "generational pain" perpetually alive.😎

Christiane said...

certainly among people of good will,
remembering an evil past may help to prevent its recurrence;

UNLESS people of ill-will choose to celebrate that evil once more:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o6-bi3jlxk

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GzXY902hbo




Scott Shaver said...

Christianne:

People of "ill will" love to create problems where there are none.

Take the allegations of "systemic" racism for example.

Balderdash.

Scott Shaver said...

Wonder if from the eternal perspective of Uncle Rufus whether he or his living relatives give a rat's tail about "generational guilt"on this side of the veil

From his perspective, it's all been washed and sanitized through grace and the blood of Christ.

There are no "reparations" in Heaven, only rewards and eternal consignments as I understand scripture.

Wade Burleson said...

Scott,

Yep.

Christiane said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Rex Ray said...

OFF SUBJECT

I doubt very much that anyone will share their most embarrassing even in life, but here’s mine.

In the first grade, I vowed I’d never again wear short britches without underwear.

I’d climbed to the top of our neighbor’s flag pole. A third-grade girl yelled at her kinder garden sister to shut up over and over, but she wouldn’t stop yelling, “Rex, what’s that between your legs?”

Wade Burleson said...

Rex,

A great vow to which all of America says "Thanks for keeping!" :)

Christiane said...

My brother pointed to something interesting that might make a difference in how people relate to racial issues:

in the practice of medicine, something that HELPS is to have what is called a 'cultural sensitivity' of the physician towards his patients. Essentially that is a kind of 'awareness', yes, of 'differences' in many cultural areas, including race, but it also involves developing a sensitivity towards these differences called 'mindfulness'.

I found this definition:
"Mindfulness is essentially seeing and experiencing things more accurately (as they are)—without mental filters, self-narratives and judgments—in order to see clearly and respond thoughtfully. In this process, such mental processes are not pushed away or ignored. Rather, they are recognized as opportunities to learn about oneself and one’s biases. It is in this way that mindfulness has a role with developing cultural humility."

As American changes from a predominately 'white' nation to a nation that is more racially balanced, there will be opportunities and challenges that are meaningful to all concerned,
but any efforts to move
FROM STEREOTYPING INDIVIDUALS
to
RESPECTING PEOPLE AS HUMAN PERSONS
will prove to be positive efforts that are not alien to our American values, as these efforts are based on our Judeo-Christian beliefs in humility before the Lord and in the dignity of the human person based on the Imago Dei.

Racial issues will continue, but it is better to approach them in ways that honor the humanity of all concerned by RESPECTING that we need more awareness of how some of our 'filters' may have prevented us from seeing the 'Imao Dei' in others:

""Blessed is He Who comes in human frailty to walk the road we walk. Open my eyes that I may see Him coming. "




Christiane said...

Attributed to St. John Chrysostom: ""If you cannot find Christ in the beggar at the church door, you will not find Him in the chalice."


Chrysostom's actual sermon, this:
https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.iii.L.html

Scott Shaver said...

πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚

Scott Shaver said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Rex Ray said...

Wade,
“All America” huh. I’m thinking you just might be stretching things a bit. I know one thing; I came down fast, and never went back to their place again.

Judy was ashamed I told such a thing. If she was ever embarrassed, she’s keeping it to herself.

Since my wife, Belle, is in heaven, she won’t mind me telling this.

We had a trampoline in the backyard that kids like to jump on. Our 5-year-old son and his friend came through the front door and out the back on a run. She was nursing our baby and didn’t have time to ‘cover-up’. She heard the friend say going out the door, “We have some of those at our house, but we don’t use them.”

Scott Shaver said...

Wade's quote from Washington Irving is outstanding. Have read quite a bit of Irving but must have missed that one.

Rex Ray said...

My daughter texted: “Got my first shot today. Getting my second shot as soon as the waitress comes back.”

I didn’t get it, but Judy did. 😊

Christiane said...

"(Wade Burleson writes): My cousins, Uncle Rufus, rightly acknowledge the effort you put into ensuring the educational opportunities for freed slaves. Though a product of your time, you rose above the prevailing prejudice and did all you could to assist our black brothers and sisters."

WADE, this is certainly a valid argument FOR honoring the memory of your 'Uncle Rufus' as it shows his heart in wanting for people of color to have a CHANCE to succeed going forward at a time when, before 'the war', many people of color were forbidden even to learn to read. Your 'Uncle Rufus' was in his way, a progressive, and the goal of wanting to educate freed slaves IS something to CELEBRATE, not to dismiss as unimportant within the context of a major university of which 'Uncle Rufus' was prominent.

I understand how difficult it must be to see this happen. My mother's family always celebrated the Civil War hero William James Ausbon, one of my great-grandfather's brothers, who won a medal for bravery during the Siege of Petersburg;
and about thirty years ago, in the North (New Jersey) I told his story to a good friend who said to me at that time: 'Don't tell anyone else about this', the implication being that our celebrated family member was NOT celebrated in that area. I didn't know this, as I thought we, as a nation, had arrived at some kind of peace about the war being 'over' and healing taking place,
but with all that is going on now, on many sides, I can see that I was very wrong indeed.

The ghosts of that time do haunt us, as in that torch parade in Charlottesville where Confederate flags were carried by white supremists;
and that set the stage for a REACTION the likes of which you are now seeing even at Baylor University. So, I have some simpathy, yes, for your own situation. But I do think that extremists have, in their recent actions that were racially provocative, have 'called up spirits from the ground' so to speak,
and there is a kind of hell to pay, where 'over-reaction' is seen on the OTHER side that wants to throw the baby out with the bath-water.

These are hard times. Extremism on the right has been strongly met with extremist reactions on the left in the form that you call 'cancel culture';
but it did not happen in a vacuum;
but in the context of hate rallies, of comments made openly that fed hidden attitudes of white supremacy, of actual real racial discrimination against black American voters which is now fully and explicitly targeting them in their situations and needs, even to the extent of not permitting food or water given to them when they are forced by restrictions to wait for many, many hours in order to legitimately vote. . . .

Extremism is the problem, WADE. I believe people need to return to a more civil time in our country, where all of our citizens are respected. We cannot un-do the past, but we mustn't call up the old enmities again, no. In the five years, we have seen this play out and now we reap the results. We need healing. Not more extremism.

Scott Shaver said...

Christianne:

Confederate flags are carried by NASCAR fans. Does that automatically make them white supremacists?

The extremism of the left haa done more to adulterate, corrupt and erase the progress of the civil rights movement than any other recent paradigm shift in the last 150 years.

Tell us HOW black Americans are being "targeted" and by whom.

Scott Shaver said...

The more diatribe and hate mongering I hear fostered over a stupid flag, the more tempted I am to go out and purchase the biggest one I can find.

Not as a racist statement but as a show of protest against the cancel culture and the jack-a-loons that promote such.

Scott Shaver said...

Christianne:

Perhaps you should document for us exactly WHERE in America and under whose hand blacks are being forced to stand in line for many hours to vote while being denied food and water.

Balderdash.

Scott Shaver said...

Christianne:

When exactly was this "more civil time" in America?

According to the narratives of the progressive left, America was built on slavery, was evil from the outset and at it's core is systemically racist.

Biggest crock of bovine excrement we've encountered to date and even being pushed by the NBA in China.

Rex Ray said...

Scott Shaver,

https://thedixieshop.com/collections/flags-2

They sell a 10-foot by 15-foot Confederate flag for $250.

Christiane said...

some family history about the 'War'

this is from a report
“By D. H. HILL, Lieitenant-generai..

There were at least six instances in the siege of Petersburg in which shells, with burning fuse attached, were picked up and thrown over the breastworks. On inquiry, each of these brave men were from North Carolina and their names and commands were as follows:
1. Captain Stewart L. Johnston, Company H, Seventeenth North Carolina Regiment, says: “A shell from one of the enemy’s mortars fell in the midst of the company, and while it was spinning round like a top and the fuse still burning, Private William James Ausbon picked it up and cast it over the breastworks where it immediately exploded. General Beauregard in general orders directed his name to be placed on the Roll of Honor and that he be presented with a silver medal.”


William James Ausbon was the brother of my maternal ancestor, Joseph Gray Ausbon. Another brother, Mc Gilbray Ausbon also fought in the war. Our family has a letter written during the Civil War by McGilbray (‘Gib’), that is very moving, and asks that ‘a suit of clothes’ be made for him from a blanket. The original letter is a family heirloom in the keeping of one of our cousins in North Carolina.

Scott Shaver said...

Rex.

My...that is a BIG one.

Scott Shaver said...

Christianne:

My great great grandfather and his brother were volunteers in the 1st Arkansas Regiment cavalry and infantry (Union).

I find the cancel culture's destruction and anathematizing of Confederate memorials, monuments and memories disgusting and woefully ignorant of the grace, honor and respect those brothers turned adversaries showed one another as a healing suave upon the conclusion of that terrible conflict.

I never hear talking heads like Russell Moore or Dwight McKissic mentioning or referencing important historical caveats like that in their psuedo-pietistic grandstanding.

Scott Shaver said...

Seems to me that folks like McKissic and Moore would rather cloak themselves and everybody else with the pain of a bygone era rather than the peace and forgiving power through Christ for the present and future going forward.

Vengeance in human affairs belongs to God. Not to them.

Rex Ray said...

Scott Shaver,

I believe the saddest event in the Civil War was:

Civil War Tragedy | Man Unknowingly Kills Son During The Battle Of Malvern Hill : history (reddit.com)

As the father turned a Confederate soldier over he had shot, the soldier died saying, “Father”.

Scott Shaver said...

I have read that story many times. Thanks for the reminder Rex.

Christiane said...

As I am descended from slave owners, and as I also am able to count among my maternal family's ancestors, a Confederate war hero;

I also stand for a time of 'healing' in our land that has never properly taken place.
Perhaps over generations it will, in time. But now we suffer as a nation because of 'hate rallies' and racist 'dog whistles' that inflamed the old wounds that never properly healed.

THE CELEBRATION OF A TIME OF SLAVERY IN OUR LAND IS WRONG.

We can honor our fallen dead who were brave in our museums and our documentaries; but to glory in the fact that human beings were mistreated as slaves is another path that keeps wounds open and poisons our nation. So for those who walk into mosques and black Christian Churches and synogogues and Sikh communities of faith and commit mass murder, we can see the open wound as it affects those who are unstable and driven to commit acts of hatred against 'the others'.

Why keep the hate going? If waving a Confederate flag is meant to show contempt for those whose ancestors suffered during the time of slavery?
We have choices: If by keeping the hate going, certain 'leaders' seek political power, why support the ones who do not speak for the better angels of our nature??? (?)

Put the flags and the memorabilia into the keeping of historians and museums where the past will be preserved.
We have choices: Let our documentaries be of the quality of 'The Civil War' by Ken Burns where the pathos of the past is honored with dignity and not used to inflame current racial hatreds:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7HmBmWz9mI

Scott Shaver said...

Christianne writes:

"Celebration of a time of slavery is wrong".

Question: Who is "celebrating"? Point them out...name names.

Fact: Nobody dictates what causes Christianne supports, right or wrong. Nobody tells her how to pick her wardrobe, what car to drive, or what church to attend.

Conversely, neither Christianne nor any other "culture warrior" will advise me as to what flag I can display, what vocabulary I choose to describe the cutural smelting pot around me, nor will they choose my interpretation of history.

I don't need to put such things onto the "hands of historians and museums."

Here lately, even they can't be trusted.

Fact: Nobody suggests what clot

Scott Shaver said...

Sorry Christianne:

I choose to celebrate the lessons learned and valor spent on BOTH sides of that war among brothers.

Those who are offended can either reconcile it and move on or keep crying crocodile tears until the world looks level.

Their choice. Makes not a whit of difference to me. I've been called a lot worse than "UnChristian" believe me.

Scott Shaver said...

Let me get this straight Christianne:

Descendants of Confederates and Southerners are "WRONG" for displaying a flag (St Andrews Cross) because it's a "celebration of a time of slavery".

Yet you turn around and write 300 words publicly about the pride of you and your family have over a Union Soldier relative/hero.

Talk about your arrogant double standards of what are and are not socially acceptable gestures. IMO

Scott Shaver said...

Christianne:

You seem to worry more about the small percentage of morons (all colors) who commit racist evils in America than you do about the collective welfare and preservation of the nation as a whole.

You will not eliminate such attitudes either from history or the hearts of mankind until a "new Heaven and a new Earth" are established...which won't come by the hand, power, nor intellect of man.

Until then, and as my farmer Grandfather used to tell me when we were out feeding cattle esrly in the morning "Be careful where you step, the more you stir it the more it stinks".

Christiane said...

" . . . At what point shall we expect the approach of danger? By what means shall we fortify against it?-- Shall we expect some transatlantic military giant, to step the Ocean, and crush us at a blow? Never!--All the armies of Europe, Asia and Africa combined, with all the treasure of the earth (our own excepted) in their military chest; with a Bonaparte for a commander, could not by force, take a drink from the Ohio, or make a track on the Blue Ridge, in a trial of a thousand years.

At what point then is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer, if it ever reach us, it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide." (Abraham Lincoln, 1837)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlseQlnk3R8

Scott Shaver said...

I agree with Lincoln.

Supports my personal reason for resisting, among other things, the political and spiritual rot of both Critical Race Theory AND White Supremacy.

Scott Shaver said...

Lincoln lived, however, before the age of China owning U.S. debt,and the current levels of escalated high-tech military mobilization.

He didn't say anything about the possibility of a transpacific military giant nor was he privy to the reality of hellfire and death from above.

Rex Ray said...

How many years was it before a lot of people learned that dam Yankee was two words?

Christiane said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Christiane said...

Recited before she died by Miss Daisy Turner, age 104, daughter of a freed slave and included in Ken Burns' production of 'The Civil War' documentary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0ba_B24Uzc



'Dear Madam'
I was standing close beside him, and I saw him when he fell.
So I took him in my arms, and laid him on the grass. . . .


. . . Twas a minne ball that struck him. It entered at his side.
But we didn't think it fatal 'til this morning, when he died.

"Last night, I wanted so to live. I seemed so young to go.
Last week I passed my birthday. I was just 19, you know.
When I thought of all I planned to do, it seemed so hard to die. . . . "


Scott Shaver said...

Rex:

I did not learn it was two words until Ted Nugent started fronting a rock bamd with the same name.😜

Christiane said...

the pathos of that war still haunts us, that brothers fought brothers

and at the ending, for Grant, the victor, there was only sadness expressed, not some joyful hubris:

'The war is over, the rebels are our countrymen again' spoke Grant as he stopped his men from cheering . . .

seems to me that sadness remains over those battlefield still, and I hope the ones preserved will never be turned over to 'developers' because the land itself is sacred to our nation - better we remember without hubris, without hatred

for those who try to resurrect the old hatreds, let them go to the battlefields and pray for a while on that ground where now there is only the silence

https://www.pbs.org/video/civil-war-appomattox/

Paul D said...

@Wade

terrific post. Respect your take on things.

My question is:

what does any name, whether it be Rufus or Thomas or George, have to do with "self-evident" laws and our constitution "by the people".

You can't cancel that. If they remove a statue of George or Thomas or Rufus, the truth remains. If the removal of the offending names brings comfort, is that worth something? The truth still remains as it has nothing to do with any person. If it did, it would no longer be self evident and by the people. Advance the truth and let the names go.

thanks
Paul

Paul D said...

1 Cor 15:9
"For I am...unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God."

Apostle Paul

thanks
Paul

Paul D said...

sorry - one last comment.

My kids' school, Robert E. Lee elementary, was renamed a few years ago. If anything was "cancelled" in that action, it was worth it.

Lee existed and had good and bad in his heart. If renaming the school brought 0.00001% of reconciliation to anyone, it was worth it. Could the name on a school or statue be compared with an improvement in the community today?

thanks
Paul

Rex Ray said...

CHRISTIAN,

I learned from your Civil War link, more than I ever knew. Knowing death is coming is sad and frightening. Two incidents stand out to me:

The diary that read: “Tomorrow, I die.”
Knowing death was coming, soldiers marked the back of their shirts with identification and address.

We had a relative on the side of the South. He was an officer. One night, he found a sentry asleep. He could have had him shot, but he took his place. That morning before daylight, the North killed the sentries before attacking.

Christiane said...

Hey out there REX RAY,

Sad story about your Confederate relative who apparently was a very humane person.

That PBS documentary series 'The Civil War' by Ken Burns is notable for how much of primary material (original letters, recorded voices and speeches of the old, original diaries (Mary Chestnut's, for example), and original correspondence is used in the making of that documentary, plus the showing of actual photographs from that time.

Thing is, those who were brave soldiers on both sides RESPECTED the bravery of the other side also; and those who fought against their own relatives knew 'conflict' in the own consciences and souls in ways we cannot fathom,
so the 'sadness' of that time speaks to me of WHY in our time some in politics would try to 'stir' racial hatreds and attempt to divide our nation for their own political advancement,
unless they had no knowledge from history or from their own family stories of how that war was fought and why we hold those battlefields as sacred ground for the nation to visit.

Ignorance of the past and of its pathos is the only reason I can see for anyone to promote racial hatred and division in our country again. Ignorance and a desire for the power and control that kind of manipulation brings that says: 'hey, let's you and him go fight'. Then the person who started it goes somewhere safe to wait out the danger. Our recent history is remarkable in how people were manipulated, yes.


I do hope we keep something of the truth that those people who fought in the Civil War were REAL human beings with families and homes; and that many among them on both sides fought honorably and valiantly, and in the end, neither side 'celebrated' with the hubris of today's hatemongers who know nothing of the carnage of that bloody time.

That family home, the Ausbon House, still has bullet holes that have never been filled or painted over. The original cannon ball that hit the upstairs outer chimney now sits in a museum, but the patched chimney is visible on the outside of the home. There are markers near the house and on the house to commemorate the incident that occurred there. The blood stains of the dead sniper left markings on the wooden floor of the center hallway where he staggered down the staircase and died on that spot. Not all of our history is found just in books, no.

Rex Ray said...

CHRISTIANE,

Well said!

I’m shocked at the attitude some people have for police:

https://www.foxnews.com/media/video-shows-driver-calling-officer-a-murderer-in-racist-attack-during-traffic-stop-youll-never-be-white

A policeman stopped a woman for using a cell-phone while driving.

I believe it would be ethical for the policeman to have told the woman:

I was going to give you a warning ticket, but because you called me a murderer 13 times you’ll have to pay.

Scott Shaver said...

Was that here in Houston Paul?

Scott Shaver said...

What some see as "improvement" others see as the whitewashing and revision of history.

The fact that some are willing to go there to appease .0001 percent speaks volumes.

Scott Shaver said...

The name change did not come without first villifying and dishonoring the namesake.

Cowardly, dishonest and generationally destructive IMO.

Scott Shaver said...

Yes Paul, our communities and cities are looking much "improved" after caving to cancel culture.

Take Portland, Minneapolis, Austin, Baltimore, etc etc.

Guess if their purgings by fire and riots reconciled .0001 percent then all is well and "justice" reigns.

Paul D said...

@Scott Shaver
Tulsa

yes, I think an actual improvement of 0.0001% in the present community is infinitely more valuable than preserving a statue or a name on a building. It's the ideas and principles that mean something, not the names. For sure, revisionist history is not a good thing - but renaming something or ceasing to honor the likeness of a person is not the same as revising history.

1 Cor 3:4-5a
For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not being merely human? What then is Apollos? What is Paul?

thanks
Paul

Scott Shaver said...

Paul:

Name a community cancel culture has improved. Name a city where statues and monuments have been torn down that have improved as a result.

Document the "improvement".

Scott Shaver said...

Paul:

The "renaming" generally follows the "revision" as a general pattern.

Paul D said...

@Scott Shaver

The Federal Republic of Germany, 1949.

Libraries were stripped of Nazi books and periodicals, fascist newspapers shuttered, and all physical vestiges of the old regime removed and destroyed. West Germany criminalized the display of swastikas; the symbol was also scraped and sometimes blown off of buildings. The federal state systematically destroyed statues and monuments, razed many Nazi architectural structures.

thanks
Paul

Rex Ray said...

Paul D,

You mentioned Germany, 1949.

That year, our Dad, my twin brother, and I stood where Hitler had shot himself. Also attended the Nuremberg trials.

Scott Shaver said...

Well, I sorta suspected the example would be other than America and from a bygone era.

Ball is still in your court. Cancel culture IS the new nazi agenda for the West.

Paul D said...

@Rex Ray
I can't imagine the feeling of being in that place at that time. I'm really not into "energy" in a spiritual sense, but I have noticed in several locations a certain vibe that affects the soul. Where you stood...must have been quite a feeling.

thanks
Paul

Scott Shaver said...

What I understand you to be saying, Paul, is that the fascism of the left can sometimes be useful if it benefits the feelings of even .0001 percent.

Paul D said...

@Scott Shaver

nah - I dunked the ball. Sorry you missed it. :)

But, if you're gonna gimme the ball back.

Robert E. Lee elementary school, Tulsa. 8/20/18. The community improved as a result and is hereby documented as such.

thanks
Paul

Christiane said...

That Family home, The Ausbon House, in Plymouth NC which is preserved as the site of a Civil War skirmish, there is a flag flying in the front of the home:

it is an AMERICAN flag.
This is as it should be.

:)

Paul D said...

@Scott Shaver

shoot - not sure why I didn't think of this example earlier, of a community that improved due to something being "cancelled".

Southwestern Seminary, April 2019 - stained glass removal. Was that "revisionist history" orchestrated by "fascism of the left"?

thanks
Paul

Scott Shaver said...

Respectfully Paul:

What happens in the denominational SBC as to its gravity upon 300 million Americans +/- going forward is a distraction.

The SBC is neither an American city nor a major nation in the world.

As far as the stained-glass windows at SWBTS...Personally, I prettu much wrote "The SBC" as a denomination off as "lost cause" with the advent of the ill-advised "Conservative Resurgence under U Know Who. That would have been around 1989-90.

My only thought about the windows was they looked tackier than a roadside velvet Elvis and they seemed to be framed in self-adulation.

Scott Shaver said...

And it is HIGHLY questionable at this point in time whether ANY aspect of the denominational SBC has "improved".

Scott Shaver said...

"Documentation" and. solo public affirmation of one's on hunch are not the same thing.

This ain't basketball.

Paul D said...

@Scott Shaver

wow. Talk about cancel culture. Too foreign, too old, too small, too personal. Oh well. Sorry none of my fine examples meet your true-scotsman criteria. We've all been part of communities that decided to distance themselves from a name or brand for various reasons. The ones we agree with are tremendous victories. The ones we don't agree with we identify as "cancel culture". Shoot - try to find out what denomination a church is - it's like a highly guarded secret, when 20 years ago it was part of the name of the church.

BTW - I'm not SBC either, I just thought it was a great example of "cancel culture" in action - the only difference is that most of the present company here happens to agree with outcome.

thanks
Paul

Scott Shaver said...

My "criteria" are shaped by nothing more than my personal opinion brother.

We all got em. And tiz a good thing.

Thanks for the dialogue.

Scott Shaver said...

Paul,
I'm still an SBCer. Albeit rather non-compliant, and not of the 2000 BFM ilk.

But the SBC is still more than happy to take our church's money😜

Paul D said...

@Scott Shaver

yes, thanks.

I did drive through Houston Friday and Tuesday - Galveston and back. I was on an I-45 North Express Lane that dumped us downtown..what?? And then I followed a sign pointing east that said "I-45 North Express Lane access" that put me on I-10. So...Houston. Got to see lots of tents under the overpasses - hate to see that.

thanks
Paul

Scott Shaver said...

I live in the Woodlands and try not to drive any further south than FM 1960 at Spring unless I'm going to Galveston or Bolivar Peninsula.

Christiane said...


"Blessed is He Who comes in human frailty to walk the road we walk.
OPEN MY EYES that I may see Him coming. "

https://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/articles/news/2017/12/29/259091/federal-judge-houston-can-clear-out-homeless-tent-cities/

Scott Shaver said...

We have tent cities on private acreage as well as public property down here.

Nobody documented.

Hell is coming to breakfast according to the Indian buddy of Josey Wales.

Christiane said...

"Today if ye will hear His Voice
Harden not your heart"


comes a story from another faith tradition, this:


"Joshua ben Levi (who lived in the first half of the third century), while meditating near the tomb of Rabbi Shimon Bar Yohai, was visited by the Prophet Elijah. "When will the Messiah come?" asked Joshua. "Ask him," replied the Prophet. "The Messiah is at the gates of Rome, sitting among the poor, the sick and wretched. Like them, he changes the bindings of his wounds, but does so one wound at the time, in order to be ready at a moment's notice."

Then Joshua went to Rome and met the Messiah and greeted him, saying "peace upon thee, Master and Teacher" and the Messiah replied "peace upon thee, O son of Levi." Joshua then asked "When will you be coming?" and was told "Today!".

Joshua went back to Elijah and was asked what the Messiah said. 'Peace upon thee, O son of Levi', Joshua replied, and Elijah told him that that meant that he and his father would have a place in the world to come. Joshua then said that the Messiah had not told him the truth, because he had promised to come today but had not. Elijah explained "This is what he said to thee, To-day, if ye will hear His voice", a reference to Psalms 95:7, making his coming conditional with the condition not fulfilled.[1][2][3]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Messiah_at_the_Gates_of_Rome#Sources





Rex Ray said...

Paul D.

https://spartacus-educational.com/GERbraunE.htm

This link tells the history of Hitler’s last days. Russian shells were falling as Hitler’s friends carried out Hitler’s orders of what to do after he and his one-day-old-wife’, Eva Braun, committed suicide.

Paul D said...

@Jack Okie

“how do we judge people for not knowing something?”
Romans 1:19
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.

And the Declaration of Independence
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights…

“I'm unaware of any condemnation of slavery”
1 Timothy 1:10b-11
…enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.

I know it doesn’t solve every problem, but there is a difference between an OT slave, a NT slave, and an antebellum slave.

Thanks
Paul

Scott Shaver said...

The only difference between OT, New Testament, Antebellum etc and modern slaves is the time period they live in.

Paul D said...

@Scott Shaver

well, you didn't like my example of Germany, 1949. The only difference is the time period they live in :)


thanks
Paul

Christiane said...

irrationality continues as all of the extremists 'roar their terrible roars' :)

“and while faith based on theological reasoning is today universally
engaged in a bitter struggle with doubt and resistance from the
prevailing brand of rationalism, it does seem that the naked fundamental
experience itself, that primal seizure of mystic insight, stripped of
religious concepts, perhaps no longer to be regarded as a religious
experience at all, has undergone an immense expansion and now forms the
soul of that complex irrationalism that haunts our era like a night bird
lost in the dawn.”

(Robert Musil)

we are in the times of weaponized golden statues of 'the annointed one' and of wild conspiracy theories conducive to all forms of hubris and contempt for 'the others'

and both extremes scream at one another with cries so shrill that no sense can be made of the noise generated in a land where a people have lost the will to listen to one another