Friday, May 22, 2009

"Praise God No Stones" Are Used for Assassination of Character in Texas or There'd Be No Rocks Around the Baptist General Convention of Texas

Yesterday, there was a scathing article at SBC Today , written by Bart Barber, that the Baptist General Convention of Texas was escrowing Lottie Moon Funds. In other words, the BGCT was so short of cash, Bart alleged, that they were refusing to send the money raised for Lottie Moon to the International Mission Boad. The same article containing the serious allegations against the Baptist General Convention of Texas was duplicated on SBC Today. The Baptist Identity men at SBC Today offer no comment stream for her readers. However, in the Praisegod Barebones comment stream the Vice-President for Business and Finance of the Southern Baptist Convention denied the eschrowing of Lottie Moon funds by the BGCT had occurred, and in fact, proved that the money had been sent. Rand Jenkins of the BGCT chimed in and adamantly denied the allegations by the SBC Today crowd. Then, the President of the Baptist General Convention of Texas, David Lowrie, commented and demanded the posts be removed.

Yet, Wes Kenney remains stubborn. He wrote:

Several members of the SBC Today gang have been working on this today, and have confirmed with sources both within and without the IMB that (our allegations of the BGCT eschrowing funds), is in fact, (the) case.

Kenney goes on to implicate two other state conventions, without proof or names, who he alleges are doing the same thing.

Rather than pausing after the onslaught of criticism at their inaccurate blogging and harmful allegations against state conventions, Wes Kinney, Tim Rogers, Bart Barber, Robin Foster, Joe Stewart, Scott Gordon, and John Mann, began trying to put out the fire they started by NOT removing the posts in question and apologizing, but by secretly ALTERING the originals, changing some phrases and deleting some words without informing their readers.

Then there was an addendum (in red) indicating the funds were not escrowed, and then there was later added a sentence that some sort of "reporting" error was involved. In the comment stream, Wes Kenney, Tim Rogers and others started claiming they did nothing wrong, and their source was "factual" just "in error." Now the altered posts state that there is a "report" by "IBM sources" that the BGCT is escrowing funds, with the red clarifying entry completely removed. The only "source" who would have ever alleged that the BGCT was eschrowing funds would have to be one of a handful of SBC of Texas trustees. There is no indication on SBC Today or Praisegod Barebones that their initial blogs were incorrect, and the shortened entries shift blame to make it look as if the problem is the administration at the IMB.

This seems to be the pattern of the SBC Today crowd. They write things that are false (anybody remember the time stamp fiasco?), then they alter posts to make themselves look better (without any disclosure of the alterations), and then they try to shift the focus on to other things (take a look at the "new" post at SBC Today regarding "The Shack"). By golly, if somebody is going to call us on our lies and deceit, then we are going to point our finger at the liberals in our midst.

This would all be so sad if it were not so funny.

Somebody owes the Baptist General Convention of Texas an apology. I also do not believe SBC Today staff and Bart Barber should remove their posts, or alter them any further, or change them, or hide them. The Baptist Identity crowd should let them stand AS WRITTEN (of course, admitting the changes), just as over 1,000 posts on Grace and Truth to You remain standing after three years, without alteration. The BGCT blog fiasco should be a healthy reminder that one either needs to stand behind what is written, or one should apologize for getting it wrong.

"Praise God No Stones" are used for those who assassinate character in Texas or there'd be no rocks around the headquarters for the BGCT.

In His Grace,



Lydia said...

Wade, I saw the original post and sent it to someone who wrote me back to inform me it had been changed. Too bad we did not copy the original.

This has become a character issue with these folks. I would like to advise folks that you comment there at your own risk. They can also edit your comments in Wordpress (as we saw by the time stamp fiasco with no remorse at all).

But one cannot edit comments in blogger.

Alan Paul said...

SBC hasn't had a real free press in years. No one should be surprised at this. I hope my friends at the Baptist Standard in Dallas are all over this.

Christiane said...

THIS is on 'Praise God Bare Bones':

"Anonymous said...
What would be the MOTIVE in the IMB for 'sources' to spread such a rumor, that funds had 'not been received'?

Are donations documented?
Is there a paper-trail.
Can the BGCT prove their donation was given to the IMB by providing receipts from a bank?

If the IMB DID recieve the money, and IF their are certain 'sources' at the IMB who have alerted the B.I. group involved in 'revealing' what may not be true;

then, at internal examination at the IMB needs to be done
1. to determine the truth of the
B.I. claims
2. If not true, then there is still
a need to identify the IMB
'sources' IF THEY EXIST AT
3. If the IMB balance sheet does
not match up with the BGCT
deposits, where is the money?
4. If no 'sources' are found,
what is the B.I.'s
responsibility in this scandal?
And at whose orders ?
5. An investigation would put
questions to rest.
6. Except for one: MOTIVES
WHY? And another piece of
the B.I. puzzle is put into
place. Soon the 'picture'
will be visible for all to
see. One way or the other.

May 22, 2009 11:23 AM "

Ramesh said...

The only saving grace in all this is the blog "Praisegod Barebones" is a blogger blog. If it were a wordpress blog, then it would be very easy to modify comments too.

Praise God for that.

Founders Ministries Blog > IMB cuts and the GCR call.

Ramesh said...

VTMBottomLine [Paul Burleson] > FIFTY YEARS OF MARRIAGE-----MAY 28th 1959-2009.
Who would have believed it? Fifty years. Married at eighteen [that's me] and seventeen [that's Mary] with no money, no sense, and no experience in relationships that were really healthy at all. I was already pastoring a church as a freshmen at OBU [The Oklahoma one] while Mary was finishing her senior year of Highschool. She graduated on Tuesday night and we were married the following Thursday night, May 28th, 1959.

Three babies were born in four years. The first was a daughter we named Cherri. The second was a son we named Wade. The third was a daughter we named Melody who was born ON our fourth wedding anniversary. After the doctor explained to us what was causing it all, the next son, and last child, a boy we named Brett, wasn't born until eight years later. Mary and I are quick learners.

But this isn't about the kids. It's about the one who is the mother of those kids and a wife to their father. It is now fifty years later. As I said, who would have believed that as one song says...[I've taken the liberty of correcting the english.]

Doesn't seem like we've been together all our lives.
Doesn't seem like we've been together since we got out of school.
And who've thought we'd still love each other when the twilight years arrive.
Doesn't seem like we've been together all our lives

Reality Check [Mary Burleson] > Tough Times.
As I've said before, I read Oswald Chambers almost every morning, at least most mornings. This morning the subject was the verse about "seek ye first..." I've always read that verse like don't even think about the physical things of life, just be concerned about the spiritual and all will be taken care of.

Well, I've lived long enough to know I'm not reading that right. I've seen too many people abuse the interpretation of that scripture and literally become "spiritual" beggars. I watch that and think that something is wrong here. So I've hit the middle of the road on this one. My philosophy is to be very responsible and take care of yourself so you can be free to help others. BUT you must be personally responsible!! We're not to worry about our physical needs, but we are to be responsible.

Imagine my surprise when I reread this devotional. That's exactly how Oswald Chambers seems to be interpreting this verse. I think the point of my post this morning is to show how much our personal filter interprets for us what we're reading and hearing. I would have sworn that OC was saying don't even think about your personal needs, just let God take care of them. Put your mind on the things of God and don't even think about physical things. But that was how I was reading what he was saying through my own personal filter.

Today I read it quite differently. I read it the very same way I've grown to interpret that verse. Imagine that! OC didn't change; he's been dead a long time. So what changed? My whole way of thinking and living, and now I read what is really being said. May I remember this lesson for a very long time: I'm not to be anxious or to worry over the physical things, I'm to be very responsible about them as I put the things of God as a top priority

Denn said...

Wade, perhaps your sentence should read, "It would be funny if it were not so sad." One of the saddest things about it is the level of ignorance that has been demonstrated by those who believe that the BGCT leadership is so stupid. To withold LMO would be to invite those who are always lurking and waiting to pounce hoping for great harm to come to those with whom they disagree. It would also be wrong. Randel Everett has a great devotion to integrity, something that has not been exibited by those involved in spreading this slander. Because they have been taught by example we can can expect more of this in the future is probably a fair assumption.

Tim G said...


This is Tim Guthrie. I was not, I have not, I will not have any part of this conversation. I would greatly appreciate and do expect a correction of your post in reference to my name being used in relation to this conversation. You have my email address and cell phone number. Feel free to contact me should there be further need.

Scott said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Scott said...

I apologize for deleting my comment but I felt that my comment was a little much for someone brand new to this blog.

Wade, I have become a fan of this blog and thanks for being open enough to allow commentary on your works.

Robin Foster said...


Point of correction. Tim Guthrie is not part of our version of SBCToday. You may have typed Tim's name by accident thinking of Tim Rogers. If you will note Wade, Guthrie has not made any comments concerning this matter other than the one above which asks to remove his name from this post.

Thank You.

Todd said...

It is Tim Rogers not Tim Guthrie.

Christiane said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Christiane said...

Where is Tim Rogers mentioned by name in the antecedent references?

'Tim' is addressed by many in the eighty-plus comment stream on 'Praise God Bare Bones' but I cannot find a last name for this 'Tim' or an entry by "Tim" to which everyone is responding.

Can someone help me with this?
Thank you so much. L's

Tim G said...

Tim Guthrie is always listed as Tim G, and I have not participated in this conversation on any level except to ask for correction on the fact that my name was mistakenly used. I have also asked for SBCToday to retract the original article.

Ramesh said...

L's, here is Tim Rogers recent comment. It appears he left 6 comments, only 2 are standing, and the rest are deleted.

You can easily find comments by searching for this string "Tim Rogers said...".

Christiane said...

Thank you THY PEACE,

you do so much to help people here, I want you to know I appreciate all of your help. :)
Love, L's

I'm not sure how to go about 'searching for a string' but I will type 'Tim Rogers said' into Google, and see what comes up.
Thanks again. L's

Ramesh said...

L's, for any browser, on any page, if you type CTRL+F (pressing Control key with letter F), brings up the search box for that web page you see on screen.

Ramesh said...

L's: I am assuming, you are using windows operating system. said...

Thanks gentlemen, for the correction. Tim Rogers' name has been included and Tim Guthrie's name removed.

Christiane said...

Thanks, THY PEACE, I couldn't sort this out without you. Love, L's'

Yes, I use Windows. (I think so at least.) :)

Love, L's

peter lumpkins said...


You still have Tim Guthrie's name in the OP (6th para, 6th line).

With that, I am...

flboy said...


Your list of questions are the exact questions that MUST be asked AND answered! I will not hold my breath until they are asked and answered. When will there be honest, open and transparent dialogues among Christian, including the BI folks.

However, I think they consider themselves to be Christians and the rest of us pagans without hope of salvation.

RWP said...


Thank you.

With that,

I am Wade

Ron said...

I am still concerned that the blame for the whole mess seems to know have been shifted to sources at the IMB. Who are these sources? Are they staff members or trustees? If they are trustees there is not much hope for accountabilty. If they are staff members, Jerry Rankin needs to get involved and find out why they are spreading misinformation.

I noticed that Johnny Hunt seems to have taken the bait and was spreading this untrue information. Is this the type of misinformation that has caused him to call for a Great Commission Resurgence that seems to be more an attack on the state conventions than the problems in the national SBC?

DL said...


I'm guessing the safest thing you can do is re-print the entire post with the amended name in bold print so that the rabbit trail is effectively cut off and your actual point can be dealt with. Plus, you won't be able to be accused of the same thing you're exposing. Of course, then you might not get the distinguished gentlemen to interact with this post anymore.

Scott said...

I guess that they just don't realize that the author is responsible for the content, not the anonymous sources. What they did was journalistic malpractice and now the main page post reads like a logic puzzle trying to connect incorrect facts with supposition to make that thought their story was wrong, you should pay attention to what we were trying to say.

A newspaper would be sued on Monday with this type of article on its front page.

Scott said...

"The BGCT has a history of its leadership publicly removing support from the SBC, including moral, theological, and fiscal support."

Anyone care to explain this one?


Ramesh said...

Updated Link:

VTMBottomLine [Paul Burleson] > FIFTY YEARS OF MARRIAGE 1959-2009.

Todd said...

I suggest you contact someone who was involved in the BGCT in those days. While you may not get an objective perspective, you will not get one from those now standing opposite the BGCT either.

There was at the time a denominational relations study committee. They met with every SBC entity head that would sit down with them. The story is an interesting one.

Darrell said...

THE WORD OF THE LORD: Romans Chapter 1:

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness........(29) They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderer......."

"I send you out as sheep among wolves"



Scott said...


Thanks for giving me a starting reference. Looks like I have some homework ahead of me. I like to be informed about all sides of an issue. It satiates the conspiracy theorist in me.

Grace and Peace,


John Fariss said...

I followed the whole mess. I regularly read SBC Today, but only occasionally "Praisegod Barebones". I used to comment from time to time on SBCT--until they closed it to comments. As I recall, there was a controversy about that too, one centering on their altering of time stamps on comments.

I can verify that at first, the blogs (because the entry was the same on both; the only difference was that PGBB allowed comments, while SBCT did not) said according to "sources" at the IMB, the BGCT was escrowing Lottie Moon funds in order to insure their own cash flow (i.e., pay their bills). {BTW, a church I formerly served did that. When I found out, I was outraged, but I am not sure they ever "caught up." The Finance Committee & treasurer thought they owned that church, and they pretty much ran it, regardless of what any temporary pastor said.} Later, there was an entry--in red letter--that made somewhat of a correction, saying that there was some sort of glitch responsible for making it appear that the BGCT withheld funds (I don't know how anybody got "escrow" out of that, but they did.) Then--and I am unsure of the exact sequence--there were entries from the BGCT (both staff, a VP I believe, and its president) and from the SBC Executive Committee stating unequivocally that there was no withholding of funds at all, all there was was a paperwork/computer glitch. But then the commentators at PGBB, whom I believe were the regulars at SBCT, started saying the story was "accurate," just based on erronious information (I have not figgured that one out yet; is is like "the operation was a success, the patient died"?). Others defended Dr. Barber (who apparently wrote the afforenamed piece), saying he was out of pocket, wait until he returns, he is a man of integrity, etc. But that problem was compounded when someone changed the blog entry again--on both sites--and completely eleminated the red letter disclaimer. And I'm not sure, but the article up now less shorter than it initially was, although I am not certain. The SBCT folks have been quite silent in the comment section this afternoon, answering no questions except maybe to say, "I shall not comment further.

A lot of folks have accused the SBCT people, and the "BI crowd" of duplicity, but I refrained from that. I chose to believe that they simply had an honest difference of opinion with myself and others. But this is mess--I just cannot see any possibility other than (1) they were so eager to believe the worse of the BGCT, they accepted incorrect information as fact without trying to verify it, and (2) they still want that information to circulate, so they keep trying to put it foreward in one way or another and/or impreach their own "source" within the IMB. To partially quote a line from The Legend of Curley's Gold, "Unbed__nlievable!" I am outraged. Dr. Barber and the entire staff at SBC Today owe the entire Texas Baptist General Convention, the Executive Committee SBC, the IMB, and all the readers at both blogs an apology. And they need to man up and admit they made a mistake, then compounded it by refusing to accept the correct facts.


Ramesh said...

SBC Today > BGCT Refusing to Release Lottie Moon Funds, Sources Report - Posted by Bart Barber.

The above post, though posted Bart Barber, seems to have been edited by others, even though Bart Barber was away. I do not think this is kosher at least being upfront.

A better idea for ALL blogs posts, would be to maintain a Wikipedia style of change logs, so readers can see who changed what and when and with what IP Address.


Here is an articles in wikipedia, Southern Baptist Convention, and it's History - Change Log.

Maybe Blogger, Wordpress and TypePad will follow suit for maintaining the integrity of blogs and changes of blog posts and comments.

Ramesh said...

Fbc Jax Watchdog > Smyrl: Catholics are Living and Believing a Lie.
I don't understand Jim Smyrl and FBC Jax.

Why are they still infatuated with kicking the Catholics?

This past Wednesday Jim was back taking swings at the Catholics from the pulpit of FBC Jax, once again calling them a cult, equating them with Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons and other non-Christian religions, going so far as telling his congregation that if they are to witness to their Catholic friends they must be brave enough to tell their Catholic friends that what they've been living and believing is a lie.
But this past Wednesday Jim was back at it. Jim said he had received all sorts of emails from evangelicals "blasting" and "verbally assualting" him for his Catholic Cult series, about which he said "I love it, that just fires me up." - which may be true, but then why are not his articles posted on the FBC Jax blog for us all to read?

RKSOKC66 said...

Thy Peace:

I agree that there should be a framework on blogs so that it would be possible to track "who said what and when".

Also, and many will disagree here, but I think all anonymous comments should be disallowed. At the very least owners of blogs should enforce a rule that requires all commentors to have some sort of "pen name". This way there is some way to track who said what. As it is, several different people can be in a discussion at once as anonymous which makes it difficult to keep track of who is who.

I think it is too much to expect journalistic integrity from all commentors. However, I'd say that at least 80% of the people who frequent SBC blogs are "responsible" and correct errors and/or apologize when they make mistakes. Put another way, I think Pareto's rule applies to blogging just like everything else: 10% of bloggers are probably quilty of 90% of the shoddy journalism that is going on.

Paul Burleson said...

Thy Peace,

I love how you assist all of us in reading and making better connection with other's thoughts on the subjects on Wade's blog.

I love how you read and respond on my blog and Mary's blog too. It is an honor to know you read them. Thank you for that.

I'm wondering however, and I haven't talked to Wade about it at all but think he might agree, if the posting of my [and Mary's] blog in toto might not be an unwise use of another's space.

Just my wonderings and I'm confident you will know what is best about it and will leave it with you.

You blogging buddy,

Paul Burleson

Ramesh said...

Thanks Paul. I sometimes get carried away. I will be mindful in the future.

Ron said...

"The BGCT has a history of its leadership publicly removing support from the SBC, including moral, theological, and fiscal support."
Scott and Todd,
I think history shows that the CR leadeship in control of the appointment process first removed support from the BGCT by appointing primarily or often exclusively people from the SBTC and ignoring the BGCT.

Bart Barber has just been nominated as a trustee to SWBTS and will be appointed at the SBC in June. This is an example of the thinking and reaction we get from trustees. He was appointed as a result of the appointments of Frank Page.

Scott said...

What's "CR"?

I'm new here and I'm trying to get my letter combinations right.


Christiane said...

Hi Everyone,

It's me, L's

I found this lovely prayer at, of all places, Praise God Bare Bones, which just goes to show that, even in the midst of trouble, there we will find Him and someone who loves Him, trying to heal what is broken:

I'm copying it without the permission of 'From the Middle East', but I don't think he or she will mind at all.

I wish and hope that the B.I. read it and then, let the healing begin, from the Source of All Blessing, He Who cares for us all.
Love, L's

Here is the entry:

"From the Middle East said...


I offer this prayer as a reminder. It is not directed at anyone specifically, but it is a good reminder to all:

May I be no man's enemy, and may I be the friend of that which is eternal and abides.
May I never quarrel with those nearest me; and if I do, may I be reconciled quickly.
May I never devise evil against any man; if any devise evil against me,
may I escape uninjured and without the need of hurting him.
May I love, seek, and attain only that which is good.
May I wish for all men's happiness and envy none.
May I never rejoice in the ill-fortune of one who has wronged me.
When I have done or said what is wrong, may I never wait for the rebuke of others,
but always rebuke myself until I make amends.

May I win no victory that harms either me or my opponent.
May I reconcile friends who are angry with one another.
May I, to the extent of my power, give all needful help to my friends and to all who are in want.
May I never fail a friend in danger.
When visiting those in grief: may I be able, by gentle and healing words, to soften their pain.
May I respect myself. May I always tame that which rages within me.
May I accustom myself to be gentle and never be angry with people because of circumstances.
May I never discuss who is wicked and what wicked things he has done, but know good men and follow in their footsteps, through Christ our Lord. Amen. -- Eusebius of Caesarea

Peace to you brothers,
From the Middle East

May 22, 2009 9:31 AM"


God bless you both on your anniversary. And may you celebrate many more together.
Paul, you wrote a beautiful trubute to Mary. You must love her dearly. Inspirational to read.

Love, L's

Ramesh said...

What's "CR"?.

Wiki > Southern Baptist Convention Conservative Resurgence/Fundamentalist Takeover.
The Southern Baptist Convention Conservative Resurgence/Fundamentalist Takeover are terms used to describe a major controversy within the Southern Baptist Convention—The United States' largest evangelical denomination. "Conservative Resurgence" is the term preferred by supporters; "Fundamentalist Takeover" is the descriptive used by detractors. The term "Conservative Resurgence" is also the partial title of a book, "The Conservative Resurgence in the Southern Baptist Convention"[1]

It was a struggle that began around 1960 for control of the resources and ideological direction of the convention. It was achieved by the systematic election, beginning in 1979, of conservative individuals to lead the Southern Baptist Convention, thus removing theologically moderate and allegedly liberal-leaning leadership from control.[2] All of the leaders of Southern Baptist seminaries, mission groups and other convention-owned institutions have been replaced with conservatives.[3] The resurgence/takeover has been described by one of its leaders as a "reformation…achieved at an incredibly high cost."[4] said...


Rachelle and I are sitting three rows up on the third base side at the San Diego Padres and Chicago Cubs baseball game in San Diego's Petco Park in beautiful downtown San Diego. I read your question between innings about Thy Peace's comments where you wondered if I might not appreciate her pointing others to your posts in my blog comment section. I love it! First, Thy Peace has free reign here and second, anything you guys write I want others to read. See you and mom next Thursday night at your Anniversary Dinner!


Ramesh said...

Thank you Pastor Wade for your affirmation. I greatly respect Paul and Mary, for I have learned much from their blog posts (lot of wisdom here), though I have not commented much on their blogs. I will be mindful of Paul's request.

Jeff said...

Wade, Thanks a lot for telling us where you are at the moment. :) Now, I have to preach on something beside Thou Shall Not Covet...Sunday. I can't preach on Be angry and do not sin. :)

Perhaps learning to be content....

Ramesh said...

I would like to add why I think Paul and Mary's blogs are great. Both of them are not afraid to mention their stumbles in life and lessons learned. Both of them are still learning, for they are not set in their thinking. This is great and good stuff. For some reason it gives me great hope and encouragement to read their blog posts.

Todd said...

I have a close relationship with someone who served on the denominational relations study committee of the BGCT from back in the mid 1990's. I simply answered Scott's question as to the source for the comments that tend to denigrate the BGCT without reference to any action said entity took to study the changing landscape of SBC politics as it related to events in Texas.

Ron said...

I understood that from you first comment. Your mention of the denominational study committee brought that memory back to me. It is so ironic that today we have Johnny Hunt trying to study the state conventions. I think every state convention should have a denominational study committee to look at the SBC and hold it accountble for how it is using CP funds. I would start with SWBTS and then move to NAMB and then each of the other seminaries.

Rex Ray said...

Love your finding the prayer at Praise God Bare Bones.

I put it in my files and will try to apply it to the job I'm on.

Ramesh said...

SBC Tomorrow > Blogging with Integrity: A Sincere Desire to Maintain It: by Peter Lumpkins.
In addition, flies will also lay eggs in the new poo created by taking the post down! Not long ago, a noted female Baptist blogger took a post down and one popular Baptist site known for feeding frenzies shamelessly tormented her so severely, wildly insulting her with malicious, vicious attacks, she almost stopped blogging altogether.

The above reference, you can lookup the corresponding posts from here.

Paul Burleson said...

Thy Peace,

We've both heard from the one in charge of this blog so, continue as you wish.

You and I both have heard from some commenters who have assigned all kinds of motives to Wade for whatever he says or writes so, following that pattern, I'll bet he said that just to pad his readership which pales when compared to my readership. You think? LOL

Christiane said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Christiane said...

Good Morning REX RAY,

It's me, L's

I'm glad I found that prayer, too.

Strangely, the author of this prayer is the early Church Father Eusebius, who lived through and witnessed some of the worst of the persecution of Christians by the Romans.

Somehow or other, the spirit of that prayer, so prevalent among the Christians of that day, converted the mighty Roman Empire, and spread out to convert much of the known world.

People say the 'time of miracles' is past. And I would answer, 'oh ye of little faith' :)

What is it, but a miracle, that can meet hatred with Christian love, that offers caring to one who has hurt others, to reach out to those who are so destructive, and offer them our hand, in His Name? And the world, watching in wonder, comes to believe.

Christ the Lord began
a 'time of miracles'

Sometimes we forget that
Christ is Eternal
and His miracles among us
are just beginning. :)
Love, L's

G. Casey said...

In thinking this morning about how I some aspects of how issues at this blog are discussed at times. Sometimes we fool ourselves in thinking we ares fundamentalist when in true are finding ways to compensate for the flesh. It is much like uphlolding to the idea of valuing natural landscapes and upholding that ideal but yet wanting a commercialized zone and compensating by building a park in order to ensure obedience. Often there is no need to destroy a natural landscape in order to acheive objectives in ministry and life. In Jeremiah, it is stated to seek the true "ancient path" not recreate our version of it.

Ramesh said...

Baptist Life Forums > BGCT, Lottie Moon, Bart Barber and bad blogging.

Jacksonville News > Duval Sheriff's, State Attorney offices respond to blogger lawsuit
It's in the case of a man who anonymously criticized First Baptist.

Anonymous said...

"Scott said...
What's "CR"?

I'm new here and I'm trying to get my letter combinations right.


Scott, it stands for "Crowder's Right"

You remember that and you'll nare go wrong. :)

Byroniac said...

Thy Peace, I love that idea about keeping change logs. I just wonder how, technically and practically speaking, that would work out. I can guess it would consume a lot of server resources and so I doubt it be offered as part of a free blogging service (someone has to pay for server space and computer time as there is no such thing as a free lunch in the world). On the other hand, unlike Wikipedia, readers can't change the basic "post" as this is limited to the author himself or herself and authorized agents. So, accountability is a great thing, but I'm not sure how to implement that, but I'd love to see it.

Ramesh said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ramesh said...

Byroniac: It would be very easy for say Blogger to do this. Since all objects (blog posts, comments) are unique, and all text based with some pictures in posts (which are basically hyperlinks to images) ... Blogger can easily maintain delta of changes (all text based) for each object and should be able to version them. It can be done on a large scale as being done on Wikipedia.

Wiki > Technical Attributes.

Wiki > MediaWiki.

Wiki > WikiMedia Servers.

Wiki > FAQ/Technical.
Early in Wikipedia's history, in February 2003 the database was about 4 GB in size. By August 2003, this had grown to roughly 16 GB, with uploaded images and media files taking up another gigabyte or so. By April 2004, this had grown to about 57 GB, and was growing at about 1 to 1.4 GB per week, and by October 2004, it had grown to about 170 GB. This includes all languages and support tables but not images and multimedia.
As of late August 2006, database storage takes about 1.2 terabytes:
English Wikipedia core database: 163G
Other Florida-based core databases: 213G
Other Korea-based core databases: 117G
Text storage nodes: 44G, 44G, 200G, 149G, 166G, 84G, 84G
This may include free space inside database storage files, as well as a lot of indexing.
Uploaded files took up approximately 372 gigabytes as of June 2006, excluding thumbnails

Note that this can also be extended to TypePad and WordPress blogs that are hosted on end user's servers too.

I am certain, it's only a matter of time, before this happens. For in software engineering, this has been taking place for the past 25 years (versioning and delta of change logs to software changes).

Unknown said...

To see the answer to this problem you need to read the response at the Baptist Standard web site.

How can we claim to be people of integrity when we are guilty of shoddy research and quick to accuse others of wrong and then fail to admit we are are wrong just as quickly - like it or not that is sin. God forgive us for are hard hearts. If it will be more bearable for Sodom & Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for the town that did not receive the words of the apostles (Mat 10:15) then somewhere in hell Pharaoh is chuckling because of the actions of believers today.

Amazed at our actions

Anonymous said...

Wikimedia uses Ubuntu Server on its hardware.
.....but politically they are leftist radicals.

Why Wikipedia cannot be trusted!

From the Southern Baptist Geneva
Robert I Masters

Karen in OK said...

I agree with you that the post by Bart Barber on SBC Today and on his site has been handled incorrectly.
It should not have been done this way, and the follow-up is wrong, too. But I think this was due to a mistake in judgement, rather than the completely evil intent that some on this thread have assigned.

Here is the however. Both on your post here and on Baptist Life, you are using the situation to contrast SBC Today people with you. How they do it wrong and you do it right, in over a 1000 posts.
I was not thinking of Greg Welty whom you mentioned on BL. I was thinking of Al Mohler, about whom you made a very disparaging remark. As I recall, after criticism, you merely erased it and did not apologize. Are you saying that you have never changed any of your posts? What exactly is the claim you are making about your posting?

Anonymous said...

Here is a link to the technical details.

BTW....I see no reason that Lifeway could not do this and do exactly what Dr Akin is calling for in his Great Commision Resurgance. Better stewardship of Southern Baptist Resources.

How do I know they are not doing this right now....job openings posted for sys admin in Microsoft!
More money for the Kingdom less for
Bill Gates.

From the Southern Baptist Geneva
Robert I Masters

Anonymous said...


Sorry here is the link

Ramesh said...

Thanks to Dave for this link:

Baptist Standard > IMB receives funds from BGCT; blog claims to the contrary ‘erroneous’.

Thanks to Robert for this link:

ars technica > Wikipedia adopts Ubuntu for its server infrastructure.

Christiane said...

Is 'bearing false witness" considered the B.I. equivalent of a 'mistake in judgment'?

Or, maybe, are you saying Bart did not mean to try to attempt to damage the reputation of the BGCT who have done so much to help the IMB with Lottie Moon funds?
And that when he returns and finds out that he 'was wrong', he will try to make things right again?

We hope it's the latter case. L's

Anonymous said...

Thy Peace:
Disapointed you didnt link the WorldNet Daily article!
Also Wikimedia's bias in the Obama not a citizen controversy.

Examples of bias abounds on both sides of the theological, and political spectrum!
Including on Wades blog.


Its pretty common knowledge that the BGCT is theologically and politically on the left. Thats why the Conservative convention started in Texas.

From the Southern Baptist Convention
Robert I Masters

G. Casey said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Karen in OK said...

Hi L's,
I don't know the answer to your question since I don't consider myself in the "BI" group.

I do believe Bart had sources he considered reliable. I do believe he handled it incorrectly. We will see how he handles it when he returns. I don't believe he had evil intent anymore than Wade did when Wade posted that all the Calvinists were going to be fired at SWBTS.
Ironically, when Greg Welty, an official at SWBTS, disputed Wade, Wade said that Greg was lacking all the information Wade had from his anonymous sources.

I do hope that Wade will see fit to answer my question in my earlier post. said...


You have made two errors in your comment above.

First, it is your friend Peter Lumpins who brought up Greg Welty at Baptist Life, not I. I only corrected his mistaken facts in my response and hope everyone reads the comment.

Second, when Al Mohler ignored the Convention's wishes in the Garner Motion and angrily seemed to tell the messengers he and SBTS would narrow their doctrinal confession as much as they pleased, I wrote that Dr. Mohler gave the Convention "the proverbial finger." In hindsight, I felt the expression inappropriate, not because it did not accurately reflect what I felt happened with Mohler, the Convention, and the Garner Motion, but because, as you point out, it qas too crude for my blog. As you know I publicly apologized and removed the remark. As you may not know, I also personally and privately wrote to Dr. Mohler and apologized for using the phrase.
So, Karen, you wish to identify errors in my blogging and use the example above as one. Fine. Tell your Baptist Identity friends to follow through with the example and apologize to the BGCT.


Ramesh said...

Robert: I agree with you that some articles in Wikipedia are erroneous. The way to gauge accuracy of the articles is by looking at the sources that are referenced in the bottom of each article. This is the only way to attest the accuracy of articles in wikipedia.

On the whole the colloborative idea of wikipedia is sound.

Wikipedia lies, slander continue.

NYT > Microsoft Encarta Dies After Long Battle With Wikipedia.

Wiki > Reliability of Wikipedia.

Jimbo on Wikipedia reliability. said...


We are enroute to Oklahoma and will be unable to respond. I just ask that you actually read my comment above for content before you post again trying to malign character.



Ramesh said...

Here is Pastor Wade's comment, in response to Peter Lumpkins on Baptist Life Forums.

Karen in OK said...

I am sorry for offending you.
I am glad, though, that you refreshed my memory on what happened with the Al Mohler comment. I had remembered it differently than that.

I have no power over my "BI" friends. I have never met any of them. I only know them through reading various blogs including yours. I doubt they would welcome me as an ally since my views on many issues are far closer to yours.

But I do have strong disagreements with you on a number of issues and disagree on some of your tactics.

I see your whole post and the comments of some in response as being easily interpreted as maligning Bart Barber's character.
Whom I have never met.

You have often stated that you are open to being questioned. I am sorry that my questioning sounded the way it did. Not sorry that I asked a question to try to clarify.

Byroniac said...


OK, let me first get something out of the way. I like WND, and particularly Joseph Farah. However, they are too fundamentalist and right-wing for my taste (and I'll leave it at that). Joseph Farah has a right to not be maligned and falsely accused.

However, the fault is not really with Wikipedia here, unless I am mistaken. Because anyone can change Wikipedia content (AFAIK), it gets down to who can be a better "Wikipedia buzzard" and hover over an article to attack/counter-attack any changes. And obviously, someone out there (leftist without a doubt) obviously dislikes Joseph Farah, and seeks to constantly malign him (the accusation of homosexual is a particularly nasty insult in the particular theological context represented by Joseph Farah). The problem is not Wikipedia, it's some leftist having a temper tantrum and acting like a juvenile delinquent, only I doubt that the person is still a juvenile. Perhaps Mr. Farah had no other legal recourse; I do not know.

Believe it or not, you CAN fix stupid. The only problem is, most solutions are not moral, ethical, or legal. And I sympathize with Mr. Farah because I am much closer to agreement with him than any of his opponents on any issue you can bring up.

kehrsam said...

KareninOK: The character issue is not so much about Dr. Barber giving publicity to rumors without adequately checking the facts: That is a simple mistake that can easily happen, and why newspapers have Editors. Rather, he went ahead and ascribed a motivation to explain the rumor, one that happenes to be libelous. Yes, that tells against his character.

Byroniac said...

Thy Peace:

Thanks for the information. I have not read all the links, as I was busily distracted in an absorbing FreeCiv game (I'm Irish in this game, and I'm trying to figure out how to conquer England without using nukes, which I do not mind using at all except they can cause a bit of a nasty clean up job. Once I figure that out, I'm off to conquer the rest of the world I hope. And yes, I'm cheating. And no, I don't cheat when I play humans. Ever. Only computers, because I hate them and they hate me when it comes to game playing.) Sorry, back to reality... I can see how it would be done technically a little bit better. I would really like to see this implemented.

Alan Paul said...

But I do have strong disagreements with you on a number of issues and disagree on some of your tactics.

What "tactics" are you referring to Karen?

LOL!: In light of Wade's "proverbial finger" comment, the fact that my word verification in order to post is "finger" is pretty funny! :) said...

Thy Peace,

Thanks for pointing out Peter Lumpkin's newest post on his blog where he mentions the poor soul who almost quit blogging because she was tormented by me after she took a blog post down. What Peter artfully dodges once again is that the poor soul in question, SelahV, royally denigrated the character of one of my church members, Debbie Kaufman, even questioning her salvation. SelahV was hammered not only by me for her psuedo-spiritual backstabbing of Debbie, the blog world hammered her for what she wrote. Emabarrassed, SelahV took the post in question down without any apology to Debbie. SelahV then played the victim in the storm of her own making. My only regret in the whole matter is that the SelahV didn't stop blogging completely. Her words against Debbie, since removed, were unconscionable.

Peter needs to take Ginseng. He is very forgetful of facts.

Wade said...


No offense taken by me. I can assure you it takes a great deal more than a little blog comment to offend me. Smile.

I accept your explanation and hope your memory is now refreshed.

By the way, I have already prepared a post in appreciation of, and a call for acceptance of, the apology issued by Bart and his buds at SBC Today - if in fact one is coming.


Anonymous said...

What a bunch of nonsense .....your well known for attacking all kinds of people.
Leadership in Nashville. Paige Patterson,Al Mohler,Russ Moore, on and on ad nauseum!
Just on the last post you Allowed L,S to take a pick ax to Paige characters....not one word of opposition from you.


Robert I Masters

Christiane said...


It's me, L's

I looked back at the recent blogging and I found what you may have objected to (I think).
Is it this? :


Yes, I had noticed the discrepancy between Paige Patterson's professed belief in the 'inerrancy' of Scripture
AND his vicious treatment of the innocent Dr. Klouda.

Not understanding 'inerrancy', I was influenced by Patterson's avowed faith in the term and by his lack of compassion, and attempted destruction of this good woman's professional life and of her family's welfare.

Actually, the word 'attempted' is not accurate. He really did some serious damage to an innocent person. I'm glad I found Wade's web site so I know there are Baptists who believe in 'inerrancy', what ever it is, and do NOT cause harm to innocents because they follow the Lord Christ.

This was confirmed for me when I read Wade's statement:

"When an inerrantist can be hostile, bitter, angry, conniving, self-serving and vindictive toward fellow Christians, then no matter how much we claim to believe in the inerrant word, our conduct contradicts our profession"

I know that in the case of Patterson and Klouda, no mercy was shown; and I know that Wade tried to help Dr. Klouda, so the contrast in two men who profess "Christ" is obvious. Both are 'inerrantists' but only one follows the Lord Christ and His Ways. There is no doubt that the other man does not follow Jesus Christ. No one involved in the persecution of innocent Christians can claim the title of 'Christian'. No one.

Wed May 20, 04:38:00 PM 2009"

If it is, I realize that those who honor Dr. Patterson, might be offended by my words. But I do stand by these words. There have been many times I also wondered and expressed my thoughts as to why those who care for Dr. Pattterson did not intervene and stop him. I will never understand how anyone could do something so dreadful as what he did to Dr. Klouda and to her family. I am much troubled by knowing that he is unrepentent and has made no effort to help his victim. It is all so sad. There is still time for him to repent and make amends to Dr. Klouda and return to the Lord. I pray for his soul, Robert. Actually, in my way, I may care more for him than all his hangers-on and all of his 'yes-men'. I wonder how the man sleeps nights knowing how much he hurt her? Is there no one who will help him? Love, L's

Lydia said...

"Thanks for pointing out Peter Lumpkin's newest post on his blog where he mentions the poor soul who almost quit blogging because she was tormented by me after she took a blog post down. What Peter artfully dodges once again is that the poor soul in question, SelahV, royally denigrated the character of one of my church members, Debbie Kaufman, even questioning her salvation. SelahV was hammered not only by me for her psuedo-spiritual backstabbing of Debbie, the blog world hammered her for what she wrote. Emabarrassed, SelahV took the post in question down without any apology to Debbie. SelahV then played the victim in the storm of her own making. My only regret in the whole matter is that the SelahV didn't stop blogging completely. Her words against Debbie, since removed, were unconscionable."

I read this whole exchange on both Lumpkins' and Harriet's blogs and can vouch for this. Harriet also said she would not take down her post and then proceeded to take down that post.

It has become very clear to me that I must double check every single word that comes from these folks.I have never seen such twisting and omitting of facts. I hope they realize that when speaking of any event, ommission is the same as lying.

Lydia said...

"hat a bunch of nonsense .....your well known for attacking all kinds of people.
Leadership in Nashville. Paige Patterson,Al Mohler,Russ Moore, on and on ad nauseum!
Just on the last post you Allowed L,S to take a pick ax to Paige characters....not one word of opposition from you."

Robert, Of course you view the questioning and negative information being made known about leaders as attacks.

Anyone who can defend Patterson after this Gilyard thing, needs to have their head examined. But you still believe he has character? What? You think the girls raped and molested by Gilyard were not worth anything? You have Patterson's view of them, too?

Why does Patterson get a pass for protecting and PROMOTING that slime?

Ramesh said...

SBC Today > BGCT and Lottie Moon Post Removed - Posted by SBC Today.
Having spoken to Dr. Bart Barber as he returns from the Ozarks, SBC Today has, with his consent, removed the post concerning the Baptist General Convention of Texas’ alleged escrow of the Lottie Moon Christmas Offering. Dr. Barber will be posting on this issue upon his return.

Darrell said...

THE WORD OF GOD: (edited)

1Corr 6:9

"Do not be deceived: The slanderers, , will NOT inherit the kingdom of God."

It is amazing so many defend this behaviour. I wonder what the Giver of Life thinks of those who say they love Him but continually defend those who intentionally tell lies, untruths.


WTJeff said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ramesh said...

The Hiding Place
(Psalms 32)
by: John Michael Talbot

1.You are my hiding place, O Lord
You saved me in my distress
You are my hid-ing place
You save me from distress
Y-o-u surround my soul
With cries of deliverance

2.Let every good man pray to you
In his hour of need
Flood wa-ters may reach high
But him they shall not reach
Let every good man pray
In his hour of need

CH: You are my hiding place, O Lord
You gaze into the se-crets of my soul

3.A hidden secret wastes my frame
I groan through the night and cry
Through the day
I will confess my sin
My guilt I will not hide
I will confess my pride
And God will forgive

CH: You are my hiding place, O Lord
You gaze into the se-crets of my soul

fin: You are my Hiding place, O Lord

YouTube > John Michael Talbot - You Are My Hiding Place.
(0:35 - 4:00)

Christiane said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Christiane said...

Thank you for sharing that.
It is so beautiful. Love, L's

It reminds me of Psalm 61.

"Psalm 61

1 Hear my crying, O God *
give ear unto my prayer.
2 From the ends of the earth will I call upon thee *
when my heart is in heaviness.

3 O set me up upon the rock that is higher than I *
for thou hast been my hope, and a strong tower for me against the enemy.

4 I will dwell in thy tabernacle for ever *
and my trust shall be under the covering of thy wings."

Anonymous said...

Robert doesn't seem to get it. Wade's "attacks" have focused on people in need of a little accountability, which the BI folks are quick to require of others and quick to anger when it is expected of them. The other common theme in Wade's "attacks" is that they are in support of people who, in the past, would have been crushed in anonymity by the CR or BI juggernaut.

Understandably, there is consternation that they can no longer do just as they please without being called on to defend their actions or words. Those who moan about how divisive blogging can be seem to conveniently forget that sometimes the divisions represent people being called to account. As long as there are adamant defenders of the treatment of Klouda, Dilday, Debusman, dozens of missionaries, the BGCT leadership, and probably many more about which we do not know, there needs to be division; there should be division, until such time as there can be repentance.

Please understand, I favor the idea of preventing a drift toward liberal theology; what I do not like is that time after time when this could have been accomplished without hurting people, the choice was made to do it in a way that did hurt people. I can't get over the fact that secular universities, where I have worked my whole career, would never treat anyone the way Dr. Klouda or Mr. Debusman were treated. It is really sad when the moral high ground is held by people who, for the most part, have no spiritual or intellectual basis for morality. What makes it even sadder, is that these folks are watching us, so when we try to offer valid arguments against relativism and for an unchanging Christ, we are already judged as Baptists to be cruel and not even trying to be like Christ. I don't mean to insult anyone, but I really don't think a lot of pastors know what damage this type of thing does and how much more difficult it is to reach people because of it.

Anonymous said...

Actually her attack was against Paige Patterson concerning the Sheri Klouda issue. From what I understand she was given opportunities to remain employed at SWBTS. Maybe not on terms to her liking but available nonetheless!.
From a employment stand point he should have the right to fire who he wants to fire.....yes including Calvinist.
Honestly I do not know all the facts concerning Paige Patterson involvement with Gilyard....I don't see any court action against him for it.That tells me a lot.If you think he is culpable why don't you press charges. Otherwise I am leery to judge a man based on hearsay.

From the Southern Baptist Geneva
Robert I Masters

Christiane said...


It's me, L's

I wanted to share that my favorite from John Michael Talbot is the youtube 'As A Deer'

some things of God cannot be found in words . . .
Love, L's

Lydia said...

"Actually her attack was against Paige Patterson concerning the Sheri Klouda issue. From what I understand she was given opportunities to remain employed at SWBTS. Maybe not on terms to her liking but available nonetheless!.
From a employment stand point he should have the right to fire who he wants to fire.....yes including Calvinist.
Honestly I do not know all the facts concerning Paige Patterson involvement with Gilyard....I don't see any court action against him for it.That tells me a lot.If you think he is culpable why don't you press charges. Otherwise I am leery to judge a man based on hearsay."

Thanks for illuminating your Christian standards to us, Robert. Who is charged and who wins in court.

Patterson has the right to fire whomever he wants and we have the right to withhold money to pay for his pastry chef at Pecan Manor that should be going to missionaries.

Lydia said...

"As long as there are adamant defenders of the treatment of Klouda, Dilday, Debusman, dozens of missionaries, the BGCT leadership, and probably many more about which we do not know, there needs to be division; there should be division, until such time as there can be repentance."

Amen and Amen.

If look closely, they use situational ethics much like Robert defended in his earlier comment. Something they claim to abhor in others.

Ramesh said...

L's: I have been listening to John Michael Talbot since '89. Some of his best music came from this period, when he went through desolation and loneliness. One such CD is "Hiding Place". It is very mournful and it does comfort some souls who are struggling. I do not favor his earlier or later music, for it does not fit his style of music. He seems to do better with solo voice and one or two instruments.

Anonymous said...

You didn't realize that I was a former pastry chef from Texas?

alert.....humour advanced above!

From the Southern Baptist Geneva
Robert I Masters

Lydia said...

"You didn't realize that I was a former pastry chef from Texas?"

You were baking more than bread, friend.

"alert.....humour advanced above!"

Get some lessons from Crowder. He is funny. :o)

Anonymous said...

Missionary Story time.

Here is an exciting story of a missionary family I knew from West Papua(Irian Jaya).
It tells the life of a former Nazi youth who came to serve Christ in the jungles of Irian Jaya.
I believe the whole book is available online. Also in Print form.

From the Southern Baptist Geneva
Robert I Masters

Denn said...

If Dr. Barber had not already lost most of his credibility, his "explanation" and "apology" would have done that for him.