Monday, August 06, 2018

Fear Is Removed When Great Joy Squeezes It Out

Fear is an emotion that cannot be removed by logic.

Fear must be displaced by another emotion to be removed. 

And there's only one emotion that guarantees the removal of fear in your life. 

Great joy. 

Let me show you evidence of this from Scripture. 

When Jesus rode into Jerusalem as "King of kings" the apostle John tells us that He took possession of a donkey, sat upon it, and then said to the inhabitants of Jerusalem: 
"Do not be afraid, Daughter Zion, your king is coming, seated on a donkey's colt" (John 12:15)
Jesus was quoting Zechariah 9:9. But Jesus makes an important change from what the prophet said. Zechariah declared:
"Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion! Shout, Daughter Jerusalem! Youur king comes to you... riding on a colt, the foal of a donkey."
Which is it? Should the people of Jerusalem "be not afraid"? or should they "Rejoice greatly"?

Answer: Both.

Fear is only displaced by the presence of joy.

The next time you begin to feel fear creeping into your life, remember the only remedy is to find something over which you can truly rejoice.

Tip: Finding joy in the things of this life is a guarantee that fear will return, but finding joy in the eternal God who created you and loves you is a permanent panacea for fear within.
"Rejoice in the Lord, and again, I say, Rejoice!" (Philippians 4:4). 
Next time you are afraid about the future, rejoice in the goodness of the Lord your God who is sovereign over the future.

Next time you are afraid of rejection, rejoice in the Lord your God who promised He would never leave you or forsake you.

Next time you are afraid of failure, rejoice in the Lord your God who directs the steps of His people and even uses our failures for His glory and our good.

Next time you are afraid of being unable and incapable, rejoice in the Lord your God who enables you to do all things.

Next time you are afraid of anything, rejoice in the Lord who is over everything.


Anonymous said...

Do you know the exact quote about,

Joy is the flag that flies over the castle
When the king is in residence?


Rex Ray said...


I don’t think all fearful situations can be overcome by not being afraid or by rejoicing.

In some fearful situations people overcome fear by running. In other words to stand still is worse than running.

As long as Saul faced the enemy his breastplate protected him, but...

“…Philistine archers caught up with him and wounded him severely.” (1 Samuel 31:3 NLT) “Then the archers overtook Saul and wounded him badly.” (Living Bible)

Wade Burleson said...


It's a song we used to sing back in the 70's. Not sure of its origin prior to the song other than historical references that when a flag flies above a King's castle (even the White House, though the President is no King), it's a sign that the King is in residence.

Wade Burleson said...

Great point, Rex Ray.

Christiane said...

"Christus est stella matutina, Alleluia
Qui nocte saeculi transacta, Alleluia
Lucem vitae sanctis promittit, Alleluia;
Et pandit aeternam, Alleluia"

"Christ is the morning star
Who when the night of this world is past
brings to His saints the promise of the light of life
and opens everlasting day." (The Venerable Bede)

may we rejoice always in the Power that rolled the stone away :)

Christiane said...

Be Not Afraid :)
so it was that Francis who had contempt for lepers, was changed by God and was able to go among the lepers and bandage their wounds and minister to them without fear . . .
Our Lord heals us of fear and gives us His peace with its gift of holy joy through the Holy Spirit

As Christians we are called to be a 'presence' in this world that points to Christ;
To be 'in the world' but not 'of the world'.

In humility, can we go among those who need Him most?
Or do we just 'talk at them' from a Great Distance?

Is our presence a reflection of His Presence ?

Do we encounter the doubts of others with our anger and frustration, or with the gentle kindness shown by Christ to Thomas?

Do we LISTEN to their cares with patient love, or overwhelm them with our pride-filled 'knowing'?

And those that are the most hated and rejected of sinners:
What do we see when we look at them, with our eyes unblinded by the Lord? What do we see?
And having seen them in His Light, do we offer our hand? Or do we close the door of the inn, and send them out into the night unaided, because we have no room for them in our lives?

If we want to share Him, Christians must go out among the lost ,to bring the gentle strength that flows from the deep Peace of Christ within us.

Our spoken words ring hollow unless we bring within us the Spirit of 'caritas in veritate':
a Spirit that witnesses of Christ the Lord, with a power far greater than words.

Bob Cleveland said...

This has sparked a really big chain of thought in my brainspace:

First, I am 80. So any way you cut it, I am a lot closer to my death than most. And that has brought the thought that, on the day I die, the most important thing to me will be my salvation. My relationship to Jesus. My security in God.

If it's the most important thing to me that day, then it is, on this day, as well.

Then, the more important that becomes to me, the less important other things of the world become.

Also, at my age, I've done about everything the flesh can do, that I want to do. There's nowhere we want to travel badly enough to travel to get there.

All that serves to elevate the joy of my salvation and depress the importance of anything this earth can do to me. And that feeds right into this post.

And, by the way, I am speaking as one who has had prostate cancer since 2008, and is currently on a course of meds to control the increasing PSA. But that medicine ... Erleada ... really saps energy and disrupts balance, and I am seriously considering discontinuing it. So, in that sense, death really has lost its sting. I'm more interested in quality of life, than in its quantity.

I don't know if that made my point .. or any point .. but let's just say I heartily agree with the point of the post.

Christiane said...

Hi Bob Cleveland,
Can you try another medication or get a second opinion concerning your treatment? My husband is eighty this year, and he has had prostate cancer which was and is being treated. I think there are a number of ways to treat it, and since your medication is causing some heavy side-effects, have you research other options? Other options are out there and maybe one would work better for you.

Bob Cleveland said...

Christiane: There are no other options. I had surgery 10 years ago, but the cancer had migrated to a lymph node. That was killed by 39 radiation treatments, but it was in the lymph system. The usual treatment was hormonal, to kill the natural production of testosterone. That worked for nearly 10 years, until last October. Then, in February, Erleada was approved, and is the only thing available to treat non-metastatic cancer not responsive to testosterone deprivation.

Said all that to say this: there is no alternative treatment.

Christiane said...

I'm sorry to hear that, Bob.

Wade Burleson said...


Your illustrative comment made more sense of the point I was making than the post itself!


Rex Ray said...


Your comment made me sad. You’ve done so much, and your words are something you can hang your hat on. Someone said, life is not the number of breaths you take but by the moments that take your breath away.

I believe you have given and received more than most.

Bob Cleveland said...

Thanks, Rex. But just one further advantage to all this: the salesman told me one shingle brand carried a 25 year guarantee, while the other carried 50 years. I bet that's the first time the salesman had someone laugh at the guarantees ...

bunkababy said...

I dont think I can agree with your post.

I am not generally a disagreeable person, but I cannot wrap my head around your reasonings.

First I thought he was exclaiming to the people not to be afraid, because Christ's kingdom or the kingdom of God was about to be established, the lamb was to be slain for the forgiveness of sins, death was to betriumphed over and in that to rejoice...

The thing that bothers me is your statement "Fear is only displaced by joy"

No , fear is displaced by the presence of God or the Holy spirit actively riumphing over the reasons or things casing the fear.

When you are frozen by fear you just cannot conjur up joy. Fear can be imobilizing,dark, hideous,relentless,and terrorizing. Only Jesus can triumph over fear.
Perfect love casts out fear...1john 4:18 God is love..1john4:7-8 you need to Know Love, if you dont know love you dont know God, and perfect love cast out fear.

My whole existence was fear growing up. Fear of rape, fear of physical, and emotional, torment. Every waking moment was fear based. My brain was/is wired to expect and respond to fear.

The more healing I got, the more understanding and knowing God the less fearful I became. And yes, every year that passes there is less and less fear because I am responding and accepting love. Trusting love. Trusting him. And in that I can rejoice.
I canrejoice in who he is, what he says he is and that he triumphed over sin and death, every evil minion, and the devil himself. Everything that sets himself up against God against, those made in his image whom he thought to destroy.

There is no doubt satan was to destroy me through the actions of my parents, but I rejoice that Jesus who triumphed over death who sets the oppressed free, unchains the captive, and loves with perfect love came riding in on that donkey proclaiming them not to be afraid of what was to happen.

Fear comes in many forms,and degrees. It can affect some minimally and others until death. The only thing who can set us free is Christ.

Not the act of rejoicing replacing the fear. JOY comes from deep within, where living water feeds the soul and bubbles up and overflowing,

I think there is a difference in rejoice, and joy. Is not rejoicing making or declaring gladness? Where as joy is a feeling or a response to something? Correct me, but I think in greek joy, and rejoice are two differnt meanings.

bunkababy said...

Sorry for the spelling errors. My tablet is tiny and hard to go back to proofread.......great I just noticed the preview button...I will use it next time.

bunkababy said...

"Fear is an emotion that cannot be removed by logic.

"Fear must be displaced by another emotion to be removed.

And there's only one emotion that guarantees the removal of fear in your life."

I agree fear cannot be removed by logic. Fear is can beillogical or it can be based out of experience. But you are basing the removal of fear by the removal of one emotion by another, and I cant find scripture that describes that statement,

I just cannot agree with the rest of this statement. There are so many scriptures I think that speak as a WARNING not to be afraid. And the majority come with reassurances after the statement "Do not be afraid" of "peace I give you" " the Lord God will be with you" "he will cover you with his feathers" (Psalm 91)"for I have redeemed you" "I sought the Lord and he delivered me from all my fears" " the Lord is my light my salvation, whom shall I fear? The Lord is my stronghold , whom shall I be afraid?"
They all speak of a relationship to the Father.

The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, SO THAT YOU LIVE IN FEAR AGAIN, rather the Spirit, you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by his name we cry "Abba Father" it speaks of relationship to the spirit, ie:the trinity.
Jesus, asks his disciples why they were afraid when the storm came crashing around them and says, have you no faith? When we are in relationship, or knowing someone, as they did in knowing Christ, he basically says, guys you know me did you forget who I am?

It speaks to me of knowing our Father/Jesus/Spirit.....he did not give us a spirit of fear....and we are to trust and have faith in him.

I just cant get my head around your statements Wade. I'm sorry.

Wade Burleson said...

Romycat Black,

No apology needed!

I could be wrong. I'm listening.

bunkababy said...

This post, has me perplexed more than ever.
I am no scholar and have only fumbling, basic skills trying to use lexicons, greek, hebrew junk online.

But from my quick studying, joy, rejoice, has far more correlation to do with suffering in the NT, in fact it almost seems that you need to have one to fully with all capacity understand the other.

And I did try to look up joy and rejoice again, noun , verbs oh my, it seems to me that there is a very deep inner working that must come via the Holy Spirit's indwelling that coincides suffering and joy..... another meaning was calm.

Which would also link up to the inner peace brought only by God in trying, hard circumstances....

Anyhow, I am thinking about this and reading inbetween trying to remove stubborn fence posts.

Joy for me has never been something I have been able to fake or conjure up, but it has come in some really thoughtful, contemplating moments of refection of what Christ has done for me. And it seems to arrive not in a happy, jumping around , jubilant dance but more of a deep inner peace and thankfulness.

Which makes me happy to see that one of the three components I read about rejoice was to be calm. Dont get me wrong, but this joy comes from deep within that somehow has some sort of internal measuring stick that measures out the depth of pain to the realising of what Christ did to restore me to freedm in him. And in the aftermath of complete captivity body , mind and soul am I slowly beginning to realize this. It is hard too describe.

My joy is in Christ and what he has done for me personally, not in the absence of fear itself. Because there are definitly things that trigger a major raging fear, but that does not mean I have lost my inner joy or rejoicing in other areas. That fear is not resolved by other areas of victory over fear in which I can rejoice.

The fear has to be dealt with by the light of Christ bringing illumination as to why that fear exists.

For instance for me bowling alleys. Yes, a bowling alley strikes resistance, fear, anger, and so far in my life I have refused to go into one. Except for one instance, with my kds. I hated every minute but had to put on a brave face.

No amount of joy or rejoicing was going to dispell that fear.

But now 30 years after I started my therapy, and healing, I found out why I hated them....feared them. One of my main abusers, the father of one of those babies I had owned three bowling alleys...he died this past year, and it was not until I read in his obituary that the memories came flooding back.

So as you can see, me trying to be joyful is not going to replace that fear.

That is on a whole other agenda, via my willingness to accept the process of healing, timing, and depth the work of the holy spirit will do in me, or just keep it up on that untouchable shelf so I can keep my sanity. The whole process of healing induces insurmountable fear, because Of the pain of abuse that must be revisted.

Christiane said...

"And it (joy) seems to arrive not in a happy, jumping around , jubilant dance but more of a deep inner peace and thankfulness."


Bob Cleveland said...

I think this all makes perfect sense, if we keep our eyes on the prize. If we really do delight ourselves in the Lord (like Psalm 37:4 says). We can see, as a result, that everything God brings to our lives (I'm a raging Calvinist so, OK ... allows in our lives) is necessary to mold us into what HE wants us to be.

The cross was necessary to make Jesus into King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and I am sure God found no joy in causing/bringing/allowing (pick one...) that in His life. But look at the result!

If we are doggedly determined to serve Him, He will use every experience, pleasant or unpleasant, to enable us to be His hands, feet, and voice here in a lost and sinful world.

Romycat Black: Keep looking up. Or, more correctly, looking around. God is no waster of resources, and He has prepared you for things you will scarcely believe. If you'll continue to delight yourself in Him.

bunkababy said...

Bob Cleaveland

Thanks for your encouragement. I see you highlighted the IF in bold italics. Why?
My views are probably immeasurably different in the way God moves and works in our lives according to the way he has proven who he is and his provision for me and my family.

Very unorthodox and shocking according to some Christians beliefs, and delivered by his love, grace and mercy. All of which I have done nothing to achieve other than have a faith as small as a mustard seed, and a firm belief is he days who he says he is. And love my neighbor to the best of my ability.

I wish sometimes I could expand on it because it would ruffle up the feathers of more staunch religious types, who have everything a Christian should be and acheive on a list according to their doctrinal views.

But I have a question. Why do Christians say he has prepared things I scarcley believe for me? Is that some Calvin thing or is it in scripture? Or is that a cliche?

Does this include the preparations he had for Paul like whippings, beatings, hunger, shipwrecks and jail? Because if you are, that stuff like that must be included. I've had my share. Thanks.

I am a firm believer that God never promised us an easy road with no hardships. In fact very much the opposite. Is that what you mean? A flowery road of bliss to prove I am his doing things the right way? Therefore receiving blessings?

Is that what you mean? I am being a little facetious..
Because In my 20s I had a friend say God would never let her get raped because she would just call out to Jesus and the guy would jump off and run away....(eye roll)

Oh, looking around at what? Genuinely interested in what you mean. I'm a straight shooter. I want to know what you meant.

I don't know what Calvinists believe but I am dogmatic about freewill. And God will not interfere with freewill but work within the framework of anyone who seeks after him.

The only thing that got me to the point where I am today with the Lord is not to say he allowed things to happenn to me, but, saved me from the sin around me, hurting me.

He came to save us FROM sin. Our own and sin perpetuated against us. He has indeed saved me FROM the sin surrounding me perpetuated by others freewill to choose evil.

And without gory details acted on my behalf in ways that only he could have known and orchestrated without altering the freewill of my abusers or myself.

It was my freewill to choose him. Having already been to the depths of hell not by my own choice, the only choice was to choose him no matter what that looked like. I had already experienced the alternative. And deliver me he did and is still doing.

Bob Cleveland said...

Romycat: God will use you in ways you never thought possible. That's what I meant. After a largely unhappy childhood, that has certainly happened to me.

If you are available for Him to use, He will use you. It's really that simple.

If we focus on Him, not our circumstances. And as a Calvinist, I make no differentiation between His Allowing things in my life, and His causing things in my life. If He can use the Babylonians to bring justice to Israel, He can use good or evil to bring what He wants in my life. And what He wants there is what I want there, too.

Christiane said...

Hello Romy,

Your moving testimony tells me that you have found, in God, the Source of your dignity as a human person. I appreciate you sharing your story.

" To believe in a Father who loves all men and women with an infinite love means realizing that “he thereby confers upon them an infinite dignity”. (Francis)

bunkababy said...


Why do people always think this? Seriously. Where did this notion or train of thought come from?

As I see it there were thousands of Israelites and just a handful of guys who the Lord did great things through.

There were lots of Christians and only a few whom God used to do great things. 12 isnt exactly a high number.

Im just curious because historically the great ones were few.

I kinda, dont really believe that ideology...overtime millions of people have suffered as I. I am not an exception. I dont seek it or expect it.

If it happens within the capacity of my day to day Life then I prefer to leave that with God.

But I'm kinda over what I think is a modern idea that God is gonna do great things through us mentality.

It leave us with a false expectation, an open door to walk straight into pride and selfrighteousness.

This prevalent idea that God has a plan for your life is weird to me. Kinda like expecting you to go around and find it. And what if you think you found it and do all sorts if stuff thinking this is God's great plan he's gonna do great things so you do it. Then at the end of your life God's like dude, I never asked you or told you to do any of it.

It was all works based and ya missed the whole point. Was not the command to love God with your heart mind and soul and to love your neighbor as yourself?
And to make disciples? I Hardly have a grasp on God and the little that I do I hang onto for dear life...

I have to think that theology must be a modern idea....besides most people worth their salt get elevated after their dead...yah know what I mean?
Im not trying to be obnoxious. I just dont have anyone else to ask.

bunkababy said...

Christiane, Hoky moly that links is intensive reading. I will read it, but right now I'm falling asleep in the heat. Which I'm not liking too much. Thanks.

Christiane said...

Rest well. God Bless!

Rex Ray said...


Your words indicated God found no joy in Calvary.

I believe the only answer to “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” was God’s tears.


People have said things like, “If the Lord wasn’t with me in that car wreck, I’d be dead etc.” and I’d think if the Lord was with you, you wouldn’t have had a wreck.

I’ve often driven on the shoulder as a courtesy to let cars pass. My wife had told me over and over that was illegal.

One dark night many years ago while driving 60 miles an hour, and facing blinding car lights, this ‘doubting Thomas’ changed his thinking.

While on the shoulder, as a car was passing a THOUGHT came to do as race cars drivers in whipping behind a passing car that accelerates their car.

I yanked the wheel so fast my car rocked back and forth. I missed him by three feet. Two things happened in that split second.

I thought the guy was going to be angry with me.

I saw the back of a boy in the middle of the shoulder.

I was so shaken, I went back and told the boy how close he came to being killed and to walk facing the traffic. He was a mile from home getting some exercise.

I told my pastor, and he said, “Sometimes and I mean sometimes, God intervenes.”

I believe God intervened for both of us. (At night, I don’t drive on the shoulder anymore.)

I also believe God has intervened for you.

Christiane said...

". . . I went back and told the boy how close he came to being killed and to walk facing the traffic."

this also might have been a providentially-inspired kindness, in that you warned the boy to walk facing traffic, so who know how much good may come from one 'intervention' when the cycle of 'paying it forward' is set in motion :)

bunkababy said...


I have no doubt God intervened. There are specific instances in my history that the only explanation has been God's intervention. In fact, there was one particular life altering event that changed the course of my abuse by a particular person. That was in 1978.
In 2016 while reading a very lengthly obituary of this abuser, the life altering change became very apparent as to why it was a big deal. At 12 yrs old I knew it was a big deal but the actual reality and intensity of it was never understood until I read that obituary.

I think that God can intervene through people who listen and respond to his whispers whether they recognise his voice or not. And that includes non christians.

But if that person chooses not to respond he will not change their freewill. He just finds another way.
But where God can act unfettered on his own accord he does. In your experience you obviously responded to the whisper of God that saved that boys life.

bunkababy said...

First of all, Jesus quoted Psalm 22:1 which begins with, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?" Jesus quoted this Psalm in order to draw attention to it and the fact that He was fulfilling it there on the cross. Consider verses 11-18 in Psalm 22:

I have read it was the practice of Jesus to quote scripture and the Jews around him would have known and understood his references to these beginnings of scripture in their knowledge they would have remembered the rest of the passage and understood the meaning at that moment. If you continue reading that section of the psalm it describes Jesus death.
Psalm 22:1 starts off my God, my God.....but 11-18 describes his death.
That statement was not in isolation of how he felt at that moment but rather he was teaching them at that moment of his fullfilment of scripture.

Jesus regularly referred back to scripture as did Paul because it was a method used in teaching.

Paul quotes being poured out as a drink offering. Which according to ancient Jewish ritual this was a minchah a representation of the devotion of mans work to God because it was not a natural product but created through the efforts of man.

It's what I find facsinating about scripture and ancient Jewish customs. Everything they did or referred to has a meaning and unless you study it, we are left guessing as to it's meaning.

The same with the reference to salt in the NT. Very interesting indeed. Salt meant something very different culterally in ancient times. And changes the importance of those verses.

Rex Ray said...


Psalms prophesied the death of Jesus. More than once Jesus stated that only God knew.

As Abraham spared the truth to his son who would be the sacrifice, would not God do the same for his Son?

This is revealed in John 16:32 that Jesus didn’t know his Father would forsake him: “But the time is coming; indeed, it is here now; when you will be scattered, each going his own way, leaving me alone. Yet I am not alone because the Father IS WITH ME.” (NLT)

I believe all the pain that Jesus suffered up to that point was nothing compared to his Father abandoning him.

Christiane said...

Hello there, Rex Ray, it's me, Christiane

I think the early Christians interpreted the two accounts in the Holy Gospels of Our Lord saying those words differently . . . here is Athanasius' argument (he was a great opponent of the Arian heretics who challenged Who Christ was):

"If then He wept and was troubled, it was not the Word, considered as the Word, who wept and was troubled, but it was proper to the flesh; and if too He besought that the cup might pass away, it was not the Godhead that was in terror, but this affection too was proper to the manhood. And that the words ‘Why hast Thou forsaken Me?’ are His, according to the foregoing explanations (though He suffered nothing, for the Word was impassible), is notwithstanding declared by the Evangelists; since the Lord became man, and these things are done and said as from a man, that He might Himself lighten these very sufferings of the flesh, and free it from them. Whence neither can the Lord be forsaken by the Father, who is ever in the Father, both before He spoke, and when He uttered this cry. Nor is it lawful to say that the Lord was in terror, at whom the keepers of hell’s gates shuddered and set open hell, and the graves did gape, and many bodies of the saints arose and appeared to their own people. Therefore be every heretic dumb, nor dare to ascribe terror to the Lord whom death, as a serpent, flees, at whom demons tremble, and the sea is in alarm; for whom the heavens are rent and all the powers are shaken. For behold when He says, ‘Why hast Thou forsaken Me?’ the Father shewed that He was ever and even then in Him; for the earth knowing its Lord who spoke, straightway trembled, and the vail was rent, and the sun was hidden, and the rocks were torn asunder, and the graves, as I have said, did gape, and the dead in them arose; and, what is wonderful, they who were then present and had before denied Him, then seeing these signs, confessed that ‘truly He was the Son of God.’"

– St Athanasius, Against the Arians III.56

Christiane said...

Forgot to give the site for above comment, sorry:

Hey there REX RAY,
me again

that cry from the Cross is from the Psalms, as Romy has told us, yes.
In my Church, that cry is traditionally called the 'Prayer of Dereliction'

It has a much richer and deeper meaning for us when said by Our Savior.

from the site, I can quote concerning the words of St.Ambrose who also opposed the Arian heresy:

"St Athanasius does not, however, explain precisely what it is in Christ’s humanity that makes this cry. This task would be left to St Ambrose of Milan who, also responding to the Arians, interpreted the cry this way:

As being man, therefore, He doubts; as man He is amazed. Neither His power nor His Godhead is amazed, but His soul; He is amazed by consequence of having taken human infirmity upon Him. Seeing, then, that He took upon Himself a soul He also took the affections of a soul, for God could not have been distressed or have died in respect of His being God. Finally, He cried: My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? As being man, therefore, He speaks, bearing with Him my terrors, for when we are in the midst of dangers we think ourself abandoned by God. As man, therefore, He is distressed, as man He weeps, as man He is crucified.

– St Ambrose"

Hope this helps.

Christiane said...

For anyone interested, this prayer by Father Benedict Groeschel, of blessed memory, was said for the sake of those of our faith who mourn a suicide victim:

"I am filled with terror for the one I loved and cared for. If only I was certain of salvation for the one who is gone, defeated by this life.

"There is no one I can come to but You — Crucified One. Your prayer of derliction (My God, My God, why have You forsaken me), which always puzzled me before, now is the only thing with any meaning at all.

"I put my dear one whose body is destroyed into Your hands. Reach down from the Cross and embrace this wounded and broken soul. You descended into hell. Find our friend on the edge and rescue the one who has gone from us…

“We have no place to go in the world, in the whole universe but here to You., to Your Cross — it is our only hope. Into Your hands, O Lord, we commend this spirit. Amen.”

(Father Groeschel's prayer for those in mourning for a beloved victim of suicide.)

I expect we see things differently, but I think some of my perspective is comforting to many Christian people as it offers another viewpoint that is based on our HOPE in Christ Himself. I hope this helps some.

Thanks also to Romy who pointed out that those words came originally from the Psalms, and so have a prophetic meaning for our salvation.

Rex Ray said...


Hi, it’s me, Rex. :)

Lets start at square one.
“…the child will not have any DNA from the surrogate mother.”

When Jesus came to earth, there was no part of him left in Paradise. He was all God and not part God and part man. The mother of Jesus, Mary, was the first surrogate woman on earth.

Since that’s true, why did Jesus, have feelings of a man? I mean his agony in the Mount of Olives produced sweat like blood. “As he came closer to Jerusalem and saw the city ahead, he began to weep.” (Luke 19:41) God wanted his Son to have feelings of a man. If that was not true, then the temptations by the devil would not have been a temptation.

Hebrews 4:15 explains: “This High Priest [Jesus] of ours understands our weaknesses, for he faced all of the same testings’ we do, yet he did not sin.”

Christiane said...

Hey again :)

Rex Ray, I don't recognize your Christology so I'm confused.

Do you believe that Our Lord as the Incarnated Jesus is fully God and fully man? Two natures in one Person? And do you believe that He is God in the Second Person of the Holy Trinity?

Where do we differ here? (it's complicated, I know, but I'm rooted in the early Church creeds, so I don't know differently from that)

Like Wade said,
"I'M LISTENING" (wise words)

bunkababy said...

Jesus regularly quoted scripture from the Torah, old testament. As in the desert when he fasted, As in the sermon on the mount. As in honoring parents, as in divorce and creation. As in 10 commandments, as in the ressurection from the dead. The 2 greatest commandments.

The list goes on and on where he quotes back scripture to teach and reveal prophecy.

Jesus intimates his betrayal by quoting psalm 41. It speaks the intimacy of eating meals together with a close friend and having his heel lifted up. A move of contemp in some cultures.
Jesus says, "I am not speaking all of you;I know whom I have chosen. But the scripture will be fulfilled, " he who has ate my bread has lifted his heel against me" john 13:8
A quote from psalm 49:1

On the cross Jesus cries out with the first verse of psalm 22. Some believe this is Jesus abandoning all hope. But the full context of that psalm is rescue and vindication following suffering. And it was frequent to quote part of a scriptural passage with the full context in mind.(possible even in the midst of agony of crucifixion) since Jesus atoned for the sins of the world at his cricifixion it is thought for a moment the Father forsook Jesus and he turned away from the sins of humanity that Jesus had taken on.

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out saying Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani? My God, my God why have you forsaken me?

The same words spoken in psalm 22:1

If you want to read the zillion quotes of Jesus teaching and reading back scripture it is under the heading of Jesus's references to old testament scriptures at Jews for Jesus.

Clearly this is a pattern of Jesus and Jewish tradition. A clear indication even at the last supper he was using the same methods he used at the cross to tell everyone that this was all prophesied in scripture and a reminder that it was written.

I think I will stick with the Jewish version of understanding how scripture was used and interpeted.
This is all quoted off the site Jews for Jesus for your reference.

bunkababy said...

This is an excellent link about the education of a Galilean Jewish child. It explains the education and tradtions of Jesus style of life and ministry and how they were taught.
I think it is a fantastic insight on the scriptures and how and why Jesus did what he did while teaching and making disciples. It also further explains why quoting scripture at the last supper, and on the cross would have been a normal way of communication to his followers.

I find it very exciting because it explains so much backround on Jewish culture in Jesus time!

Rex Ray said...

Christiane and Romycat,

I’m surprised neither of you said anything about Mary being or not being a surrogate mother.


“…God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a village in Galilee.” (Luke 1:26)
Nathanael said, “…Can anything good come from Nazareth?...” (John 1:46)
Jesus said to Nathanael, “…here is a genuine Son of Israel, a man of complete integrity.”

I believe Jesus agreed with the dim view that Nathanael had of Galilee, but your link sates:

“The people of Galilee were the most religious Jews in the world in the time of Jesus…were more educated in the Bible and its application than most Jews.”

The link states: “This is quite contrary to the common view that the Galileans were simple, uneducated peasants…due to the comments made in the Bible, which appear to belittle people from this area.”

Choosing between the link and the Bible, I’ll pick the Bible.


You ask, if Jesus was fully God and fully man.

Colossians 2:9 states: “For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body.”

I believe we’re in the position that Paul states: “For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am also known.” (1 Corinthians 13:12 KJ)

Bob Cleveland said...

What is a surrogate mother? How about "..a woman who bears a child on behalf of another woman ...". And Mary wasn't that. She was always Jesus' mother.

Christiane said...

When I think of Mary, I think of 'mother'.

I guess what Rex Ray wants is for us to consider HOW Mary was 'mother' to Our Lord.

well, suppose the Holy Spirit had inspired someone to speak about this, and suppose it was recorded in sacred Scripture . . . would this help?

Take a look at this from the first chapter of the Holy Gospel of St. Luke:

"41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb,
and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
42 In a loud voice she exclaimed,
“Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!
43 And why am I so honored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?… "

Whoever Mary was or is to Christian people, I think she is also to all humankind, and I see her in this way:

Christiane said...

Hey again, REX RAY

I will speak about your theory (out of respect, I will not this time call it 'crazy', because it seems thought out and I did find ONE Baptist site that contained it, so maybe that is how you found it yourself (?)

I don't accept the 'surrogate' thing, no. I believe in the fullness of the Incarnation with all that it implies as vital to our salvation as human persons. And the Incarnation involved Christ taking the fullness of our humanity and assuming it to Himself.


so He could save us :)

I believe that the Incarnation is a part of our salvation, yes.

Christiane said...


You might like these sources, which I have found helpful:

Rabbi Joseph Telushkin (Jewish Wisdom, Jewish Literacy)
The 'Pirkei Avot: Ethics of the Fathers' (authors, various)
Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneerson (Toward A Meaningful Life)

These sources are not 'Christian', but when I read their books, the books reinforced my own faith in God, and so I found them helpful and a blessing that increased my understanding of the Jewish roots of my own faith. The connections are definitely there.

Rex Ray said...


This link explains two types of surrogacy.

1.“Traditional Surrogacy: a doctor transfers sperm from the father into a woman (not his wife) and she gives birth to the baby. The baby will have DNA from the surrogate mother and father.

This may be done in a less costly/easier way. A surrogate mother becomes one by sleeping with the husband.

Such was the case in Genesis 16:1-4 when Abram slept with his wife’s servant.

2.Gestational Surrogacy: “The biological mother’s fertilized egg is transferred to another woman. That woman has the baby and is known as a surrogate mother. The baby has no DNA from the surrogate mother.”

Such was the case in Matthew 1:18: “…while she was still a virgin, she became pregnant through the power of the Holy Spirit.” That means Jesus had no DNA from Mary because God transformed his Son into a fertilized egg and was born of Mary.

Of course I can’t prove any of my conclusions; it’s just my opinion. :)

Samuel Conner said...

It seems to me that this intuition is fundamentally sound. Another text that one could point to that seems relevant (I didn't notice this in my hasty scan of the comments; pardon me if I missed it) is Hebrews 12:2

... Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, ...

Jesus certainly feared the cross; at one point He was overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death; later He tearfully pleaded with the Father (the Father who "always heard" Jesus), to have that "cup" taken away.


One nuance I would offer is that we tend to fear most that which threatens what we value most. And our value systems can be disordered. Evildoers fear to come into the light, lest their evil deeds be exposed. Sometimes, to be relieved of fear will call for repentance. Perhaps then there will be "room" for better joys to console.

Christiane said...

"The last enemy to be destroyed is death." (1 Cor. 15:26)

". . . . Let no one fear death, for the Saviour's death has set us free.
He that was taken by death has annihilated it!
He descended into Hades and took Hades captive!
He embittered it when it tasted His flesh! And anticipating this, Isaiah exclaimed: "Hades was embittered when it encountered Thee in the lower regions".
It was embittered, for it was abolished!
It was embittered, for it was mocked!
It was embittered, for it was purged!
It was embittered, for it was despoiled!
It was embittered, for it was bound in chains!
It took a body and came upon God!
It took earth and encountered Ηeaven!
It took what it saw, but crumbled before what it had not seen!
O death, where is thy sting?
O Hades, where is thy victory?
Christ is risen, and you are overthrown!
Christ is risen, and the demons are fallen!
Christ is risen, and the angels rejoice!
Christ is risen, and life reigns!
Christ is risen, and not one dead remains in a tomb!
For Christ, being raised from the dead, has become the First-fruits of them that have slept.
To Him be glory and might unto the ages of ages.
(from a Paschal sermon of St. John Chrysostom, 4th Century A.D.)

Christiane said...

Over eight hundred years ago, an Icelandic chieftain who was a Christian man lay ill and dying and spoke these words to his Creator:

"May softly come unto me Thy mercy.
So I call on Thee, for Thou hast created me."

In those words, we have the testimony of a believer whose trust in Christ's mercy echoes the great Sinner's Prayer rooted in sacred Scripture:

'Jesus Christ, Son, Savior, have mercy on me, a sinner'

In the deep trust we humans have in the great mercy of God, we find joy AND peace, even in the times of suffering. This knowledge of God's great mercy takes away fear and offers us comfort even in the time of our departing, that He Who has made us will now be with us.

Bob Cleveland said...

Rex: Let me take the simple approach:

A surrogate mother is one whose womb fulfills the task of a woman whose womb cannot. However impregnation occurs, that is what happens.

That was not the case with Mary, mother of Jesus. No matter how we try to rationalize the issue to make it fit our preconceived idea.

Rex Ray said...


Thanks for the reply.

Your example involves two women such as Abram’s wife and her servant.

I agree, this is not the case with the mother of Jesus.

Hers is like a couple that gives up having a baby and ask a doctor’s help. He creates an embryo by using the father’s sperm and the mother’s egg through a process called “vitro fertilization”.

I believe the Holy Spirit did not use Mary’s egg, but the example above.

Colossians 2:9: “For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body.”

To me, this means Jesus was all God but subject to the temptations of sin.

Rex Ray said...


Say Jesus had to come from Mary’s egg for Jesus to be part man.

Are they telling God what he can’t do?

Rex Ray said...

Going to hospital with old ankle problem.

Christiane said...


Jesus Christ was FULLY man, not 'part' man; and He was also FULLY God, not 'part' God.

But what I write here is from the mainline Christian teachings. There are and WERE many other teachings about Christ down through the ages.

The early Church had a time of it with all the different 'teachings' out there, so the Church met together in Councils and stated its 'collegial' beliefs in the creeds.

No doubt there will be many more ideas of Mary and of 'Who Christ is' and of the nature of the Holy Trinity,
but that's okay. It's not a bad thing that people try to comprehend and to understand what is 'mystery'; but there is an old saying, this:
"Si comprendis, non est Deus"

If I may ask, what were some of the sources of your thinking on Mary? I've taken to the internet and had a good look and found many many different sources myself.

For me, I stay with the creeds. The reason is that the early Church tried very hard to guard the treasure of what the Apostles had handed down to them, and then pass it on to future Christians. True, over time, the Church explored, as Church, especially the two questions:
Who is Jesus Christ?
What is the doctrine of the Holy Trinity?

Nothing wrong in trying to understand mystery, REX RAY. I think that is a part of our human nature given to us by God for a reason. You have been very gifted in this way, more than most. But remember how the Good Lord handles our kind:
He will keep from us that which He reveals to little children. :)
I like that very much about Him. In ways, He keeps us humble; that we may have within us room to receive His grace. As the humble Mary once said 'Behold, the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.'

I believe that it's okay to accept that there are those sacred things we may not fully understand in this life. But we may 'know' them by faith because we trust in God Who made us and gave us life AND reason AND a sense of awe at His works.

I always liked this quote from a crazy-funny, humble Christian author:
"“I didn't need to understand the hypostatic unity of the Trinity;
I just needed to turn my life over to whoever came up with redwood trees.” (Anne LaMott)

We are gifted with His gift of reason;
but we are also called to rejoice in His Creations that inspire awe and wonder in our souls:

Christiane said...


Hope you get help for that ankle!
Prayers are being said on your behalf.
God Bless!

Richard said...

Genesis 15:1 After this, the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision: "Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your very great reward."

Isaiah 41:10 So do not fear, for I am with you

Joshua 1:9 Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged, for the LORD your God will be with you wherever you go.

These would all seem to suggest the opposite, or at least: that it isn't conclusive.
For these are all... "FEAR NOT" because "LOGICAL REASONS"

Christiane said...

I think the 'opposite' of 'fear' (anxiety) is Christ's Peace.
And I don't think that the 'peace of Christ' is something we can fully logically understand or manipulate . . . it comes to us and stays with us as blessing and shelter:

"And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. " (Philippians 4:7)

The very strange thing about Christ's peace is that it sustains us through the terrible times of suffering and grief and loss. It gives us the 'sense' that we are 'not alone' but are being sheltered and cared for. Logic doesn't even come close to explaining this phenomenon.

Another strange thing about the Peace of Christ is that a person who carries this peace within themselves can be a great comfort to others, just by being 'with' them and listening to them. For someone in the ministry, it is vital for them to be conformed to the mind and heart of Christ. Such a person will not judge or look down on or abandon a broken person, but will bring comfort to them in the very bearing of the peace of Christ within themselves. There is great need for this kind of ministry.