Thursday, March 05, 2009

There is a Higher Aim than that of Mere Office

On March 6, 1857, exactly 152 years ago today, the United States Supreme Court, led by Chief Justice Roger B. Taney, declared that all blacks, both slave and free, were not - and could never be - United States' citizens. The edict, now known as The Dred Scott Decision, declared the 1820 Missouri Compromise unconstitutional, and permitted slavery in all western territories of the United States. Chief Justice Taney, knowing that some would challenge the ruling by pointing to the language within The Declaration of Independence that specifically declares, "all men are created equal," defended the Court's decision by writing:

"(I)t is too clear for dispute, that the enslaved African race were not intended to be included, and formed no part of the people who framed and adopted this declaration. . . ."

In Illinois, a local Springfield lawyer who had sworn off future involvement in poltics after serving a disappointing term as a U.S. Representative, was so disillusioned by the Dred Scott decision, he decided to run for 1858 Illinois U.S. Senate seat on an anti-slavery platform. Abraham Lincoln lost his Senate race to Stephen Douglas, but two years later he was astonishingly and unexpectedly elected President of a divided United States - running on the same anti-slavery platform. The majority of other Presidential candidates, including Stephen Douglas, were ambivolent on the issue of slavery. Lincoln, who had long admired the herculean efforts of English politician William Wilberforce to rid England of slavery, could not understand these "don't care" politicans who pretended indifference. Lincoln reminded his "do-nothing" political contemporaries:

In the Republican cause there is a higher aim than that of mere office.

Using even harsher, and possibly self-prophetic language, Lincoln wrote in a July 1858 letter that such do nothing politicians remind him of Wilberforce's opponents who "blazed," "flickered," and "died," whereas the memory of Wilberforce endured.

On this anniversary of the Dred Scott decision, we pastors, men with a cause even greater than that of the Republic, would do well to remember the words of Lincoln when we are tempted to clutch to the recognition that comes with an "office" and avoid the work necessary to see to it that those things which are good, and right, and true, and just are done through our ministries.

In His Grace,

Wade Burleson

P.S. The photograph is from Lincoln's swearing in ceremony at his first inauguration in 1861. Chief Justice Roger B. Taney, author of the Dred Scott Decision, swore Lincoln into office. Nothing evil in God's world survives forever.


Anonymous said...

""A house divided against itself cannot stand." I believe this government cannot endure, permanently, half slave and half free. I do not expect the Union to be dissolved — I do not expect the house to fall — but I do expect it will cease to be divided.
It will become all one thing or all the other. Either the opponents of slavery will arrest the further spread of it, and place it where the public mind shall rest in the belief that it is in the course of ultimate extinction; or its advocates will push it forward, till it shall become alike lawful in all the States, old as well as new — North as well as South."

Abraham Lincoln 1858

John Daly said...

I thought I read somewhere that Lincoln was in favor of colinization?

If one wants to see improved race relations today, the Protestant Christian Church is not exactly setting the example. (Yes, I'm still protesting and I forever will.)

It would be nice to have someone of Lincoln's persona today so we may actually concentrate on the life part of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." (I think originally, John Locke had the pursuit of property.)

DL said...

Wade, I'm presuming you've heard of the book "Team of Rivals" by Doris Kearns Goodwin. Great book on Lincoln.

Chris Ryan said...


Lincoln was a strong proponent of collonization, at least during the Lincoln-Douglas debates. If you read transcripts of those, you get a very different picture of the "Great Emancipator."

WatchingHISstory said...

You might find my post interesting.

feel free to comment if you like.

greg.w.h said...

It's kind of interesting how much effort we go through to downplay great accomplishments. Regardless of Lincoln's positions on race, he accomplished more than any other president with respect to structurally ending the American practice of skin-color & race-based slavery.

You might think that the Holy Spirit redeemed him from his shortcomings in order to accomplish that. At least that's how I think of it.

And if the Holy Spirit can overcome great shortcomings like those we assign to Lincoln in our historical reflections on him, perhaps he is even able to deal with OUR shortcomings. ;)

And if the Holy Spirit can accomplish in the life of a somewhat reluctant believer the kind of greatness that the Holy Spirit accomplished through Lincoln, imagine what he could do with one of us when we "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength."

I love the fact that Jesus introduced that with the "shema". You not only have to love God, but you have to love THE ONE GOD. He takes us as we are. He wants us to take him the same way.

Greg Harvey

John Daly said...


Could you please point me to specific comment where someone was making "much effort to downplay (his) great accomplishments?" I can't seem to locate it.

I suppose we should overlook his whole colonization plan. I'm tired of giving people, e.g., Washington, Jefferson, etc, a pass on this issue. They were wrong, Lincoln was wrong, and to blindly put on our Lincoln cheerleader outfit without studying the whole life, is also wrong.

"Oh John, you have to understand the times and the culture of the day." No, I don't, rather they should have understood the value of people and how much they mean to their Creator.

Steve said...

A good view into our history, Wade.

The Almighty is credited with sending a President from Illinois to bestow freedom on many children of Africa who had been living in slavery and distress.

Could it be that The Almighty would choose to send another President whose horrific conduct in office would lead Americans into another nationwide conflict to re-establish freedom from tyranny - from the same state?

Chris Ryan said...


Oh I think that is the case. And the rebellion took place when America voted not only Bush but his party out of power.

Anonymous said...

I understand that Rush is now the leader of the GOP.
He has challenged Obama to a debate.
Imagine. 2008.
Rush Limbaugh: Our Future President
Maybe we can get Ann Coulter for Veep.
Do you think the rich can hold out that long?

Clif Cummings said...

Wade wrote:
On this anniversary of the Dred Scott decision, we pastors, men with a cause even greater than that of the Republic, would do well to remember the words of Lincoln when we are tempted to clutch to the recognition that comes with an "office" and avoid the work necessary to see to it that those things which are good, and right, and true, and just are done through our ministries.

If only we pastors would remember that Scripture calls us to be the chief SERVANTS, not the chiefs!

Thanks Wade!

Phill Ellington said...

I find the Ezekiel 34 text for this Sunday, March 8, in the International Sunday School Lesson SO RELEVANT to Wade’s comments. The purpose of the lesson is to display confidence in God to provide servant leaders who will shepherd the lost, the least, and the neglected.

The writing of Ezekiel reflects the Holiness Code (Leviticus 17-26) and previews the words of Jesus about shepherds and sheep (ex. Matthew 18:12-14; Luke 15:3-7; John 10:1-18) and the Great Judgment (Matthew 25).

As you read the scripture from Ezekiel 34 notice the contrast between poor leaders and servant leaders!

Then the word of the LORD came to me saying, "Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel. Prophesy and say to those shepherds, `Thus says the Lord GOD, Woe, shepherds of Israel who have been feeding themselves! Should not the shepherds feed the flock? You eat the fat and clothe yourselves with the wool, you slaughter the fat sheep without feeding the flock. Those who are sickly you have not strengthened, the diseased you have not healed, the broken you have not bound up, the scattered you have not brought back, nor have you sought for the lost; but with force and with severity you have dominated them.’”

Verses 11-12
For thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out. As a shepherd cares for his herd in the day when he is among his scattered sheep, so I will care for My sheep and will deliver them from all the places to which they were scattered on a cloudy and gloomy day.”

Verses 15-16
"I will feed My flock and I will lead them to rest," declares the Lord GOD. "I will seek the lost, bring back the scattered, bind up the broken and strengthen the sick; but the fat and the strong I will destroy. I will feed them with judgment.”

greg.w.h said...


You brought up the subject of colonization. What did you think when you wrote it? And Chris Ryan then ran with it and suggested that you get a different picture of the Great Emancipator when you read his notes.

You'll have to pardon me as reading both comments as efforts to filter into the discussion a less positive view of Lincoln. But in reviewing the two comments, I can't imagine how casual readers were expected to respond to either reference to colonization in any other way than to see Lincoln's accomplishments as less valuable or less important.

Perhaps you'd like to explain what you actually meant and how Lincoln's reputation is enhanced by considering his offer of colonization to American slaves? I'm apparently not smart enough to dot the line between the two concepts.

Greg Harvey

Anonymous said...

It is known that Lincoln's primary goal was to save the unity of the country. He knew that slavery would divide it, if half the country remained free (the liberals) and have remained slave (the conservatives).

That the slaves were emancipated was tangential to Lincoln's efforts to maintain the structural unity of the United States of America.

Did he succeed? On the 'surface' with red states and blue states?
Or in fact, as when our soldiers don't give a damn where their buddies came from, or what their faith is, or who they would vote for: our soldiers see each other as brothers-in-arms.

Texas (as in 'the great state of') never actually fully accepted the Union. It still calls itself 'a whole 'nother country').
It is a hot-bed of right-wing conservatism, whose followers are intolerant towards those with different opinions.

Did Lincoln suceed in keeping the Union whole? Depends on whether or not you come from 'a whole 'nother country' :)

John Daly said...

The goal is not to enhance anyone's reputation (which includes my own). The goal is an objective look at truth. I appreciate the man, especially the way he held an olive branch out after the War of Southern Aggression. I like the fact that he replaced McClellan with Grant and worked tirelessly to keep the country together. I don't appreciate his efforts to RE-colonize an entire people group.

Anonymous said...

Here is an excellent Read on this topic.

Black and Tan by Douglas Wilson

Robert I Masters
From the Southern Baptist Geneva

Big Daddy Weave said...

Mr. Masters,

Way to go citing the darling of Christian Reconstructionism, Douglas Wilson, who is a notorious plagiarizer.

And from an old article in the Idaho Statesman about Wilson and his old writing buddy Wilkins:

“Slavery as it existed in the South was not an adversarial relationship with pervasive racial animosity,” [Doug Wilson's and Steve Wilkins'] booklet reads. “Because of its dominantly patriarchal character, it was a relationship based upon mutual affection and confidence. There has never been a multi-racial society which has existed with such mutual intimacy and harmony in the history of the world.” ... [Wilkins] said the [League of the South] frowns upon “race-mixing,” and believes that slavery was not the social injustice some people have made it out to be."

Will you too offer a biblical rationale for slavery like Douglas Wilson who you seem to be citing approvingly in this comment thread?

Christiane said...

Perhaps Lincoln saw 're-colonization' as one possible solution for black folks.
We must remember that we see that era through our 'modern eyes' and without real clarity, in the light of our modern progress towards human rights and racial equality.

We forget that black folks suffered terribly after the Civil War. Some were lucky enough to stay on as 'aunt' or 'uncle', beloved of their master's family, and so had food and a home.
Many black folk were homeless and starved.

Lincoln knew the suffering of the black folks of his day. Perhaps, in the light of his time, he thought 're-colonization' a possiblity for their survival, knowing that they faced such an unwelcoming society here ?

The brutality of their experiences is documented in some of the slave journals. I was reading today about a mentally-challenged slave girl named 'Tabby', frequently beaten for not understanding and for being 'worrisome'.
The journal records that finally the girl's mistress beat her so badly that her skull was fractured, and yet the beating continued.
When the mistress was told that Tabby had died, she said 'she was glad, as the child was worrisome' and also she said that it was
'not fitting for the girl to die from such 'moderate correction'.

So, we today cannot judge Lincoln fairly, without recourse to the documentation of conditions for black Americans at that time.
But of word of warning: reading the slave journals is like peering into hell.

Iconic Lincoln.
We made him into an icon, to celebrate that our country remains united. We built him a monument and what a monument! It celebrates the iconic Lincoln, but there is more: that monument is a celebration of who we are as a people.

There is something about Lincoln that transcends the man and belongs to all of us. The monument is his AND ours as a People.

Lincoln was called from among his people to serve this country during a time of great need. He did not survive. Our country did.
Now, as you wish: admire Lincoln or not, but his memory belongs to the ages.

Anonymous said...

Big Daddy Weave,
I have very few issues with Christian Re constructionist.
Douglas Wilson is man I read a lot.
I dislike liberals from the CBF et al much greater!
I often listen to George Grant here in Nashville too...does that get you fired up?

Robert I Masters
From the Southern Baptist Geneva

Lin said...

Robert, I cannot believe you would recommend Doug Wilson. Wow. I hope no one takes you up on reading him. He is scary.

"I suppose we should overlook his whole colonization plan. I'm tired of giving people, e.g., Washington, Jefferson, etc, a pass on this issue. They were wrong, Lincoln was wrong, and to blindly put on our Lincoln cheerleader outfit without studying the whole life, is also wrong."

I agree with the sentiment, here. Especially about Jefferson. But to understand Lincoln, one has to realize that he went through growth phases on this subject. He literally did not think the races could co-exist. One person who caused him to see this differently toward the end was Frederick Douglass. He even invited Douglass to a reception at the White House and personally greeted him in front of hundreds who gasped out loud. It was just not done, even in those circles.

There are very few men who could have walked the razors edge that Lincoln walked keeping all the factions in line. And so many forget that the North had a bunch of factions that had to be united.

We did try colonization in 1840's. In Liberia. Monrovia is named for James Monroe. But as Douglass told Lincoln, the freed slaves were Americans.

Anonymous said...

Doug Wilson and Christian Re-Constructionism
'the South shall rise again . . . '

"In 1973, Rushdoony published Institutes of Biblical Law, a book that established him as the founding thinker of a radical theology that came to be known as Christian Reconstruction.

The book fleshed out Rushdoony's vision of a society "reconstructed" along Old Testament lines — a world in which religious governors would mete out biblical punishments like the stoning to death of gays, adulteresses, "incorrigible" children and many others. Relying on a literal reading of the Bible, Rushdoony espoused a society of classes with differing rights, opposed interracial marriage, and scoffed at egalitarianism.

Even Ralph Reed, then the highly conservative executive director of the Christian Coalition, warned that Christian Reconstruction represented a threat to the "most basic liberties ... of a free society."

Rushdoony also developed a strategic plan. The most effective way of implementing his vision, he said, would be to develop Christian homeschooling and private schools in order to train up a generation to take the reins of society. So vigorous was his pursuit of this strategy that Rushdoony would eventually come to be known to many as the father of the Christian homeschooling movement.

It was an exciting time for Rushdoony. Some of his principal co-religionists and followers became active in the 1970s, and his influence began to extend to some of America's leading evangelical churches.

And it marked the start of an important collaboration between people who viewed themselves as "orthodox Christians" and "Confederate nationalists," a merging of the theocratic idea of religious government and a view of the 19th-century Confederate cause as fundamentally right.

Building a Movement
In Moscow, Idaho, a Southern-born recent graduate of the University of Idaho was working as song leader in the town's Christ Church. In 1977, just as Christian Reconstruction was picking up momentum nationally, Doug Wilson gave a sermon for the former pastor at his church, who had just moved away. That sermon led to a permanent job, and Wilson to this day remains leader of Christ Church.

Over the following decades, Wilson built up an empire. He created the Logos School in Moscow, a private Christian academy that is a template for Wilson's "classical schools" movement and instructs students in Greek and Latin.

He formed the Association of Classical and Christian Schools as a kind of accrediting agency for such schools and, since then, some 165 schools with curriculums similar to that of Logos have been started around the country.

Many of them, along with thousands of homeschoolers, order their books from yet another Moscow-based Wilson creation, Canon Press. The firm has published and sells 31 books by Wilson.

Wilson also helped start the Confederation of Reformed Evangelicals (CRE), the denomination that includes Christ Church and some 20 other churches with similar ideas. At his own church, Wilson created a three-year training program for ministers, Greyfriars Hall.

Graduates, who must promise to engage in "cultural reformation," have started several churches around the country.

And, in 1994, Wilson's Christ Church founded New Saint Andrews College, a Moscow institution that teaches Wilson's brand of Christianity and now has an enrollment of about 120 students. (On its Web site, the college treats Rushdoony and Dabney as foundational thinkers on the order of Plato and Aristotle.)

Many Moscow residents say the college, like Wilson's Logos School and Christ Church, also has shown a strong taste for the Confederacy, with paintings of Civil War Confederate heroes and the like. Some parents have reported that Logos School celebrates the birthday of Gen. Robert E. Lee, another hero in the Confederate pantheon.

The same year that Christ Church kicked off New Saint Andrews, another organization with a liking for things Confederate was in the works. In Alabama, a college professor named Michael Hill founded what would come to be called the League of the South. The league quickly adopted radical positions such as calling for a second Southern secession as disputes over the Confederate battle flag heated up around the South.

With Hill, a founding league director was Steven Wilkins, a man who already had been hosting Confederate heritage conferences for years (and still runs the R.L. Dabney Center for Theological Studies out of his church).

It wasn't long before the League of the South became more or less openly racist. Hill said his aim was the "revitalization of general European hegemony" in the South. The league went on record as officially opposing interracial marriage.

Hill painted segregationist Alabama Gov. George Wallace as a hero, and other league thinkers defended segregation as safeguarding the "integrity" of blacks and whites alike.

The league was theocratic from the start, with Hill arguing publicly for a restructuring of the South as a "Christian republic" — a place where others might live, but only if they acknowledged and obeyed the rules of his religion.

He asserted that the South was fundamentally "Anglo-Celtic" and ought to remain that way. And he explicitly rejected egalitarianism as "Jacobin" and argued for a society composed of classes with differing legal rights — all ideas extremely similar to those of Rushdoony.

Developing these concepts, and adding his reverence for Dabney to the mix, was Wilkins, the pastor of Auburn Avenue Presbyterian Church in Monroe, La., and a close friend to Hill — something emphasized by Hill's move to Monroe for several years ending in 2003.

With his sympathy for the Confederacy, his admiration of Dabney's ideas, and a bent toward theocracy, Wilkins became a leading religious ideologue of the league — a group that today claims 15,000 members organized into 87 chapters in 16 states — and the larger neo-Confederate movement.

By the mid-'90s, Wilkins also had become a close collaborator and fellow ideologue of Wilson's.

"Collaboration between the Christian Reconstructionist movement and the League of the South has ... increased," wrote scholars Edward Sebesta and Euan Hague in a 2002 study of Dabney and the neo-Confederates, "evidencing a growing overlap in the historical, political and theological perspectives of participants in both organizations.

"This indicates a conflation of conservative, neo-Confederate and Christian nationalisms into a potent reinterpretation of United States history, one centered upon the thesis that the Confederate states were a bastion of orthodox Christianity standing in the face of the heretical Union states."

An ideological merger, in other words, was under way."

Mark Potok

Anonymous said...

I have yet to hear anybody defeat Douglas Wilson.
Even David Barton makes a horrible my opinion!

Robert I Masters
From The Southern Baptist Geneva

Anonymous said...


Can we understand you to believe that Kinism (Christian Reconstructionism) is the crowning jewel of Calvinism ?

Lin said...

"I have yet to hear anybody defeat Douglas Wilson.
Even David Barton makes a horrible my opinion!"

I am confused. Are we debating history or what Wilson believes for the Body of Christ today?

Wilson's CREC is where RC Sproul, Jr went after he was defrocked.

They are Theonomists. They would love another Geneva with a state church as long as they are in charge of it.

Anonymous said...

Wasn't R.C. Sproul, Jr. something of a n'er-do-well and a scandal to his father's name.

What was that scandal he was involved in . . . ?

Anonymous said...

I think maybe the Southern Poverty Law Center is responsible for confusing you!

I was refering to Douglas Wilsons arguments in "Black and Tan" and not in Slavery:as it was in the South!

Mark Potok
Iam listening to the CA supreme court hearing on prop 8...cant imagine you are happy with the bench's questions. Do you not like Ken Starr's responses...Is he a Re Consructionist?

Robert I Masters
From the Southern Baptist Geneva

Anonymous said...

Ken Starr is a joke, even among conservatives.

Anonymous said...

And we know that we should believe the gospel according to Wilson. After all, he teaches ESS. That ought to make him SBC approved, right?

Mimi S

Anonymous said...

How far into 'Christian Reconstructionism' are the leaders of the SBC ?

Anonymous said...

Big Daddy Weave,
Do you support the goals and values of the Southern Poverty Law Center?
In my mind they are vastly more wicked then anything Douglas Wilson has ever articulated

Robert I Masters
From the Southern Baptist Geneva

Lin said...

" think maybe the Southern Poverty Law Center is responsible for confusing you!"

I have never read anything by them.
But I have read Wilson.

Why is it that everything is so political with you guys? My concerns with Wilson are Theological.

Anonymous said...


notice the Editor

Robert I Masters
From The Southern Baptist Geneva

Christiane said...

A Simple Lenten Meal

(Fish heads and rice)

(A.J. was a 'homeless' soul, and who knows, he might be with Lord Jesus as we speak.:)

Ingrediants: fish heads, dandelion greens, a handful of rice, an iron pot over an open fire, and anything else you can find in the trash that still looks usable.

1. First, you have to beg the
fish heads from a fish monger.
He will feel so sorry for you,
that he will throw in some
good pieces of fish with the

2. You need to pick dandelion
greens. Most bums migrate
around the country in the
winter to the 'sun belt'
where dandelions are plentiful

3. A handful of rice costs very
little. You do need the rice
for full flavor and B vitamins

4. Boil up the fish-heads in
netting to create the stock.

( If you don't have any netting, an old sock will do, but wash the sock well before wearing it again or cats will follow you around) .

(When the fish stock is ready, discard the fish heads.
Don't eat them
unless you are starving.)

Add the rice, the dandelion
greens, and the pieces of fish
to the boiling stock.
Keep watch
and don't set yourself on fire.

5. Before eating the meal,
give thanks
to the Lord for His Gifts
to all of His creatures.

Share your food with all who
need it. Don't throw anything
food away. And clean up afterwards.

A.J. MUSTE, a homeless man, became famous among 'his people' for this recipe. He never made money but he didn't need much anyway.
He shared food and the Gospel and made friends for the Lord.

He died somewhere,
no one knows where
and his grave is unmarked.

He is with Jesus now
and he is no longer homeless.

Lenten reflection:
what we share with His poor,
we share with God.

Anonymous said...

Hi L,s
An Honest question to you. Why do you as a Roman Catholic remain around here. It just seems odd to me. Like me hanging around the Vatican.
Not intending to be mean just seems so you have an agenda.

Robert I Masters
From the Southern Baptist Geneva

New BBC Open Forum said...

"Why do you as a Roman Catholic remain around here."

Probably for some of the same reasons Jesus hung out with prostitutes and publicans.

Anonymous said...

BBC Forum,
Are you saying she is Jesus ? Hanging with the SBC.....well ,you get my point.

Robert I Masters
Rush for President

Anonymous said...

I am the only person shaking my head and thinking I can't believe what I am reading? Is there really active or even tacit support among Southern Baptists for a theology that would take us back to segregation by race and class?

New BBC Open Forum said...

No, I didn't say that, but I should have seen it coming. {rolls eyes} I said probably for some of the same reasons, not all the same reasons.

Why do you care why she hangs out here? I've found her comments to be a breath of fresh air, especially compared to the usual venomous blather coming from you BI guys, and I've learned a lot from her, too. We all could.

You don't seem to have much in common with Wade (opinion-wise), so one might very well ask the same question of you. Why do you remain around here? I recall you saying around the end of December that you'd posted your last comment on this blog, yet here you are three months later, still taking pot shots at people. {scratches head}

Christiane said...


It's me, L's.

There is a saying in the Hebrew tradition:

'God is in this place
and I did not know it.'

Have you ever heard that?

Long ago, my grandmother read the Bible to me and played the old hymns of her faith on her piano.
So long ago, and I was so little, yet I remember, I remember . .

And one day, I turn on the TV and I see a Baptist Church protesting a soldier's funeral, screaming at the dead hero's family.

It was the Westboro Baptist Church.

I was horrified.

I knew that wasn't my Grandmother's faith. I knew it.
But I was worried. So I called a cousin who is Protestant and she said that Grandmother had been a Southern Baptist. So I came looking to find out the truth.
And here, I found that Westboro Baptist Church is NOT the same as my Grandmother's faith, thank God.

As for staying, as I said,

'God is in this place,
and I did not know it.'

I like your question.
It makes me think.
I answer this: I care what becomes of my Grandmother's church.
Some very bad things have happened and innocent people have been hurt. I hope that things will get better and people will stop harming others and that they will return to the Lord.
So there is much to care about, much to pray for. Much to hope for. As Wade said in this post, "Nothing evil in God's world survives forever."

I am a Catholic and a woman of my Family. There is NO conflict in praying for the health of the Southern Baptist Church of my Grandmother, of blessed memory: that it should no longer be persecuted by those within it who seek to harm others.
In truth, my faith calls me to care.
Christians must pray for one another, Robert, that's what we are called to do. Love, L's

Christiane said...


Robert just wanted to talk. Perhaps he is feeling a little bit 'contentious' tonight. I'm okay with it.

BTW, you know there are, of course, some pretty wonderful people on this blog mixed in with the, what did you call them, the 'publicans and the prostitutes'. I have learned much from the wisdom of these precious people. God is good.
There is much to be thankful for. :) Love, L's

Anonymous said...

Stephen Pruett,
It is obvious that you have not read much of Douglas Wilson.
If you believe that he teaches that then need to get out.

Robert I Masters
Rush for president

New BBC Open Forum

Lets see I am a re constructionist and I am A BI guy. Lets see Douglas Wilson in a Paige Patterson Hunter outfit!

Christiane said...

BTW, if you ever make it to Rome and the Vatican, you must visit the catacombs. The heritage of the ancient Christian catacombs belongs of all Christians of all denominations. Don't ever feel that you would not be welcomed there. L's

New BBC Open Forum said...

You're a kind, gracious lady, L's. Perhaps a little naive about certain people's motives sometimes -- or -- maybe not. :-) As I said, we could all learn a lesson or two from you.

New BBC Open Forum said...

My mistake, Robert. You're even more on the fringe than the BI guys.

Sorry, L's. I couldn't let that one pass.

Lin said...


Never heard of him.

Is this one of those guilt by association charges? I have an atheist neighbor who is a republican. We both agree the stimulus package is socialism. Does that mean I am an atheist, too?

I am noticing more and more of this type of thinking in the Body of Christ. For example, if one links to an egalitarian author such as Rebecca Groothius, then one must be a bra burning radical feminist in rebellion.

He who defines, wins. But it certainly ruins any dialogue with actual content. Perhaps it is meant to stop conversation. Just accuse them of being a liberal and everyone runs away or starts trying to defend themselves against the charge. I am not playing that game anymore.

oc said...

I'll be honest with you. As I read the Sermon on the Mount, L's looks alot more like Jesus than you or I do. Right now it seems like you worship the SBC and whatever else you believe you know. You seem very arrogant in your dogmatic stance.

Listen to me very closely, and think about it, especially in the light of total depravity, and the grace afforded us. Stop trying to defend your ego and listen to what NBBCOF said to you. Do you forget that you and I were the whores? And that we were the extortionists? And since we have not yet attained sinless perfection, we still do a little whoring and extortion here and there every day, don't we? Yet He still condescends to hang out with us, right? Maybe God sent L's here to teach you and me something. Maybe the lesson is that we can't afford to get all over secure in what we think we know and maybe the ones we think can't possibly teach us are the greatest teachers. The Gospel teaches that very kind of upside down thing. The last...the first...
the least...the greatest.

Is L's Jesus? No, and NBBCOF was not saying she is. And you know it.
It was at the very least "disingenuous" (I hate that word, nice way of saying "lying") for you to infer that was the intent. But I will say this. L's bears a very good resemblence of what I see in Beatitudes, and while you and I might be getting too involved in proving ourselves "right" in our dogma, she favors Him more than you or I do.

Whatever happened to Grace and Love? Did we sacrifice it at the alter of being doctrinally right?

You getting the picture yet?


Anonymous said...


It's me, L's

Well, I suppose working for almost twenty years in the inner city schools makes me a little bit 'naive' because I didn't come out of that work environment 'hardened'.

I'll take the naivete any day over cynicism. Cynics don't affect change. They don't believe it's possible. I have seen too much evidence to the contrary, by the grace of the Almighty Father.

But I do believe evil exists. You can't work in inner city schools and see the suffering brought there on the faces of the children, not to believe that there is real evil out there. Christians need to out and meet it 'naively' and face it down, without fear. Christians have to believe that it is possible to bring caring into the places where suffering is. That is the kind of 'naivete' that bears fruit.
The 'proud' and the 'cynical' can't do that. They wouldn't know where to begin.

Anonymous said...


I find it ironic you question L's about being here as a Catholic. Doug Wilson's "Federal Vision" is just a hop away from Catholcism.

Between your devotion to Doug Wilson and his Federal Vision, reconstruction (Dabney! The pro slavery theologian) and dreams
of a new Geneva (state church, anyone?) you don't fit well with the Priesthood of believers in the SBC.


Anonymous said...

Prayer for Lenten Repentance
from the Greek Orthodox Tradition

The Jesus Prayer

“ Κύριε Ιησού Χριστέ, Υιέ του Θεού, ελέησόν με τον αμαρτωλόν. ”

“ Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. ”

from the ages to the ages, Amen.

Anonymous said...

"I have born 13 children
and seen most all sold into slavery
and when
I cried out a mother’s grief
none but Jesus heard me. . .
and ain’t I a woman?"

Sojourner Truth
from her prayer "Ain't I A Woman?"

WatchingHISstory said...

OC , nass and the other gals are compatibile with Buddahism, they get along with them.

Robert you are wasting your time discussing truth with them. They believe in sloppy agape.

Anonymous said...

Actually that is the precise point I was trying to make here. I am still waiting for the compelling arguments that make what what Douglas Wilson said in Black and Tan wrong!
Lydia please see Lin,s post
As someone who grew up outside the SBC.
I dont find the priesthood of the believer
to be very widely held in post conservative resurgent southern baptist life. The ones that seem to trumpet it here in Nashville are all on the liberal side theologically!
Belmont professors, Tenn Baptist Convention leaders, Woodmont Church.
I do believe it is a Biblical doctrine but not as most Liberal Baptist have applied it.
Lydia...honestly most reconstructionist do believe in separation of church and state.
Please see this aricle by Sam Waldron

A number of misconceptions of the teaching of Christian Reconstructionism do exist. The
Theonomic perspective seems unusually susceptible to misunderstanding. Some of these
misconceptions are:
Theonomists do not believe in the separation of church and state.
Theonomists want to impose Christian government on the U. S. by force and
Theonomists are seeking a one-world Christian government.
Theonomists believe that the Mosaic Law should be the constitution of every nation.
Theonomists believe that we are saved by the law.
Theonomists believe that a terrible crisis will usher in the millennial period in the next
few years.

The above quote is from Sam Waldron paper : "Theonomy"
[or Christian Reconstruction]

As far as the Geneva thing: I find that a lot of baptist of every strip are woefully ignorant about the total picture of the man John Calvin.
Its his 500th Birthday this year! I think that no other man has impacted the world more than John Calvin. It was Through the Word of God that he impacted the world.Even Bill Clinton talks about him!
Notice to flamers: I did not say that he impacted the world more than Christ.

Robert I Masters
Rush for president

Anonymous said...

Bottom line for you is that you seem to a hold to man-centered theology.
You make character or at least her public
presentation of her character as the ultimate goal.
I say No:Gods glory is the ultimate goal and you cannot give God the Glory that is due him if you dont hold to Sola Fide as the reformers understood Sola Fide ie Monoergistically.

Maybe I can ask it in a more illustrative way.
Did Mother Theresa have monoergistic faith?

Robert I Masters
From the Southern Baptist Geneva

Anonymous said...


Mother Theresa depended on her good works for salvation, she was not a true Christian, for the Bible clearly states:

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast (Ephesians 2:8,9).

[God] has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began (2 Timothy1:9).

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us (Titus 3:5).

Anonymous said...

All Catholics Go to HELL... It's just a fact

I have a very hard time relating to certain religious groups. It is not my business how one defines and practices ones faith..rock on. I just don't understand how a Catholic, American or not is able to maintain their REALITY while worshiping Satan.

Anonymous said...


Limbaugh proudly calls himself a conservative and in effect defines what conservative means for millions of Americans. Thus the equation Limbaugh = conservative is true for many people. Some believers have extended the equation to become Limbaugh = conservative = Christian and listen to Limbaugh to understand how a Christian should view the issues and politics of the day.

Anonymous said...

Rush:Christ Choice
Count me out of this one......which is different then this:
Rush for president
personally I dont think Rush does know the Lord but I believe that David Limbaugh does know the Lord
I can vote for a non-christian for president
Just not a anti-christian

Robert I Masters
From the Southern Baptist Geneva

Anonymous said...

Thank God we have a guy like Rush Limbaugh who has a voice and the intellectual force and the energy to back the Republican Party.

Anonymous said...

sorry should be

Anonymous said...

Lydia what was your question that you refer too in the March 7 12:08 post?

Anonymous said...

I love Rush.
His response to 'liberals' is 'get out of my country'

just like our conservative leadership is yelling at moderates and liberals 'get out of my church'

Anonymous said...

What is your question here?

I find it ironic you question L's about being here as a Catholic. Doug Wilson's "Federal Vision" is just a hop away from Catholcism.

Between your devotion to Doug Wilson and his Federal Vision, reconstruction (Dabney! The pro slavery theologian) and dreams
of a new Geneva (state church, anyone?) you don't fit well with the Priesthood of believers in the SBC.


Lydia said...

No question, Robert. Just an observation based on your comments here.

Chris Ryan said...

Whoever said that Mother Theresa was not a Christian has obviously not read anything that she wrote.

I strongly recommend a compilation of her letters entitled, "Come Be My Light." It provides some profound insights into the inner workings of a very godly, Christ-centered person.

Anonymous said...

Catholicism is not another form of Christianity:::"It is another religion"!!!

Anonymous said...

There is only one 'form' of Christianity: the Body of Christ

All 'man-made' divisions haven't destroyed the Body of Christ, nor can they.

Stephen said...

What would have happened if Lincoln had simply let the South go? We know what happened because he did not. A million or so deaths....the end of constitutional government (with help from the subsequent Radical Republicans)....and, fortunately, the only good result - the end of slavery.

I suggest we have been blinded by our zealous love of country, which we should have to a certain degree, to accept onl;y part of the premise of the Declaration of Independence. We rarely proclaim that part that states "it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government" Despite their sin of slavery, the Confederate states had the "Right of the People." Besides, there was a paucity of sentiment even among the Republicans and free-soil Democrats for equal rights for blacks. Read Lincoln's quotes from the Lincoln-Douglas debates. Finally, Lincoln gets too much credit for ending slavery. It was mostly the actions of slaves, former slaves, and escaped slaves that ended slavery.

Stephen said...

"A house divided against itself cannot stand."

Here is Lincoln at his best....using the Bible for political gain. Imagine a politician doing that!!

Anonymous said...

Only a Republican.