"I went to Jerusalem to become acquainted (Gk. istoria) with Cephas" - Paul's words from Galatians 1:18.

Trouble at Southwestern Theological Seminary

In a contracting economy Southern Baptist churches and agencies must tighten the fiscal belt. Though God has promised to provide every need for His people, during recessionary periods it is prudent for Christians to place wants and desires in the back seat in order to ensure that the money provided by God to meet needs is not diverted to fulfill personal whims of those in charge. If a Southern Baptist church or institution ever makes the mistake of whittling expenses by firing staff, forcing the early retirement of older employees, and cutting salaries of low end employees while continuing to provide extravagant perks and luxuries for the pastor or president, then trouble for the church or institution looms.

There is no better illustration of this principle at work among Southern Baptists than what is now happening at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.

(1). The seminary must cut more than $4 million dollars this budget year and even more for the next fiscal year.

(2). Numerous staff were laid off the week before Thanksgiving. Most of those laid off were staff who had been at SWBTS for a number of years. They were let go and less experienced, less expensive staff were kept. For example, in the financial aid office, the director who had been at SWBTS a number of years was let go and the associate director who had been at SWBTS since May 2008 was promoted to director.

(3). Professors who did not have ten students enrolled for their classes for the spring 2009 semester had those classes cut, thereby costing the professors about $2,000 per class.

(4). In a meeting on Thursday, Dec. 4th, SWBTS administration announced that there would be "significant layoffs" of more staff and additional professors in January and February. The administration is pressuring older professors to retire early so that there will be less layoffs. The number of those who voluntarily retire will determine how many are laid off. Those terminated will be dismissed at the discretion of the President of SWBTS. One of the professors asked the administrators if Dr. Patterson had the authority to lay off the professors, or was he required to obtain trustee approval? SWBTS administrators skirted around the question, but implied that the trustees would need to approve the cuts. Many professors, however, left with the impression that President Patterson could lay off professors without trustee approval since employees had been told the cuts would be made in January and February, and the next scheduled trustee meeting will not be held until March 2009. Administrators also made it known that there will also be a number of staff let go. In one school alone, five secretaries will be laid off, though those secretaries have not yet been informed.

(5). Dr. Patterson sent out an email prior to the New Year notifying faculty and career staff that starting in January 2009 the seminary would not be paying retirement, and this reduction in benefits would last at least for all of 2009 and more than likely through 2011. This will cost each professor on average $700 each month - a total of $8,400 per year.

(6). SWBTS also announced on Dec. 12th that the Naylor Children's Center will close. Naylor is a full-time daycare for students and working parents who are members of the seminary family. 41 people currently work at the center and will lose their jobs and approximately 100 parents will be forced to find other daycare facilities that will be much more expensive than what families paid at the Naylor center.

(7). While SWBTS staff and faculty are being laid off and salaries reduced, the Pattersons continue to maintain a large personal staff. Mrs. Patterson has an assistant and a research assistant. Dr. Patterson has an executive assistant, secretary, personal assistant, and four interns. The Pattersons also have a large staff at their house. They have employeed at least one chef, though it is widely believed there are at least two chefs, possibly more, on the payroll. There are a minimum of four hostesses/servers, a director for the Presidential house, two people who are paid to walk their dogs, and other staff paid to clean their cars and do other household chores and errands for the Pattersons.

(8). Dr. Patterson has also taken numerous trips the past 3 or 4 months, no doubt spending budget dollars on airfare, lodging, etc. Dr. Patterson, Mrs. Patterson and Dr. Blasing all recently flew to Germany to visit the SWBTS campus there. While Dr. Blasing only went for the weekend, the Patterson's stayed for an additional week.

(9). The seminary spent thousands of dollars on the 100th anniversary celebration last year. This included buying Dr. Patterson an "unbelievably expensive" pair of custom made boots. The SWBTS budget also bought all professors black Stetson cowboy hats, as pictured by Dr. Patterson above.

(10). Enrollment continues to decline, but the numbers being presented to the public make it appear better than it really is because the numbers no longer include only full-time students, but anyone who simply takes a course from SWBTS.

When I begin to hear from faculty, staff and students at SWBTS then it should be obvious that trouble is on the horizon at SWBTS. What really bothers staff and faculty is the fact that people are losing their jobs, losing their retirement, losing their benefits, etc . . . but the Pattersons still have high end luxuries and expensive perks. The anger, in my opinion, is justified. During tough times, the person who should take the biggest financial hit is the one in charge.

If trustees at SWBTS do not do something quickly, the future could be very dark for SWBTS.

In His Grace,


Wade Burleson

305 comments:

1 – 200 of 305   Newer›   Newest»
Brent Hobbs said...

Wade,
It's possible that the Pattersons' are cutting back as well. It sounds like the perks have gotten a little out of control. Things like that stick out much more in a difficult economy than they did one or two years ago.

It sounds like SWBTS is being hit hard and I'd like to hear both sides of this story before I draw any conclusion. But you are right, the perks and extravagancies should be the first to go.

Anonymous said...

Strangely, a feeling of dejavu:

some professors must be remembering the fate of Dr. Klouda.
"But, wait a minute, wasn't she 'let go' because she was a woman. We can surely ALL agree that treatment was 'deserved'."

No, gentlemen. She wasn't let go 'because she was a woman' and no she 'did not deserve it.'

She was treated that way because the leadership COULD DO IT.
AND THEY DID DO IT.
But it was 'okay' when it happened to someone else, wasn't it?

Now, the shoe is on the other foot. Your foot. I wonder how it feels to be treated this way?
You didn't see it coming? Please.

The handwriting was on the blackboard:
'Never ask for whom the bell tolls;
it tolls for thee,
and thee, and thee, . . . . "

Anonymous said...

Just out of curiosity, where DOES the money come from for the Patterson's lush life-style?

Is it money that was meant strictly for their personal use
or
was it money meant for the running of the seminary proper?

Isn't Dr. Patterson on a fixed salary in proportion to what other professional educators make at the seminary?

Where does the money come from?

Anonymous said...

WADE wrote: "When I begin to hear from faculty, staff and students at SWBTS then it should be obvious that trouble is on the horizon at SWBTS."

Wade, I thank God that you had the courage: to provide someone for them to come to that they
could trust.

As long as all the shenanigans were about someone else's trouble and about small matters like ignoring one's conscience, people went along with the game.

Now that the game has turned on them and their pocketbooks, they are howling. For the innocent among them, this story is heartbreaking. For the rest who went along with Patterson, I have no sympathy.
But Wade, I know you are a better person than I am; and we know you will do what you can to try to make things change for the better for everyone in the SBC.
God be with you.

FRIENDS

Anonymous said...

PATTERSON'S LAMENT:
The song Patterson never heard
(but probably needed to hear)


THE MISSIONARY'S HYMN:
"SO I SEND YOU"

So send I you to labour unrewarded

To serve unpaid, unloved, unsought, unknown

To bear rebuke, ot suffer scorn and scoffing

So send I you to toil for Me alone


So send I you to bind the bruised and broken
Over wandering souls to work, to weep, to wake
To bear the burdens of a world
a-weary
So send I you to suffer for My sake


So send I you to loneliness and longing
With heart a-hungering for the loved and known
Forsaking kin and kindred, friend and dear one
So send I you to know My love alone


So send I you to leave your life's ambition
To die to dear desire, self-will resign
To labour long, and love where men revile you
So send I you to lose your life in Mine

So send I you to hearts made hard by hatred
To eyes made blind because they will not see
To spend, though it be blood to spend and spare not
So send I you to taste of Calvary


"As the Father hath sent me, so send I you"

Kevin M. Crowder said...

We as believers must consider the possibility that the current economic hard times are intended for us by the Lord to show us our gross extravagance. If we can do without it in the tough times, then we as good stewards should ask if we can do without it in the good/normal times. If you can buy it for 75, then don’t pay 100 just because you have 100. If the seminaries can truly operate at several million below current expenses, then we are paying too much.

I do not think Wade's post is critical of SWBTS's cuts in general as far as the leadership being good stewards in a slow economy. SBTS has announced VERY SIMILAR cuts. But if indeed the Patterson's employ even ONE chef while they force young couples to seek childcare from more expensive or less safe or Christian environments, or force them to drop their course loads due to tuition increases, then I say SHAME on you Brother Paige!!! Doesn't Sister Dorothy know how to cook???



I have 2 more words to say:


Covenant Seminary.




K

Benji Ramsaur said...

Wade,

If the SBC comes to an end, then I think I will look back on the Klouda incident as what ended up being the last straw [in the eyes of God] in my opinion.

I do not appreciate the way you were treated, but I think her story is even worse than straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel.

There didn't seem to be a clear gnat to strain out in the first place.

It seems to me that even if a president did not want the seminary to "hire" any women professors, that he should have at least allowed a woman with a sick husband to remain at the seminary undisturbed.

It also seems to me that if the SBC is serious about fearing the Lord at this point in its history, then the first place to start would be for Klouda to be fully restored to a teaching position at an SBC seminary of her choice.

If the nations are a drop in the bucket, how much less the SBC?

Grace

Benji

Steve said...

This situation at Pecan Manor is simply ridiculous. It is too bad there isn't, oh, some committee in an executive position representing the Convention as a whole who could look at all these seminary presidents - even the ones who are leading growing institutions - and recommend or impose some sort of equality on these little fiefdoms.

This especially rankles when it is recalled that Dr. Patterson was reportedly drawn to Southwestern because it had the big pile of foundation cash.

NativeVermonter said...

If perception is reality then the reality is this guy needs to go. In hard times, leaders need to be the FIRST ones to sacrifice. I don't care what it takes, that daycare would stay open.

When the world does more to take care of people than a Christian agency then what does that say?

And if I have to eat my wife's cooking (love ya honey!) he should do likewise.

peter lumpkins said...

Wade,

What an awesome post! Just to know you are on the frontlines protecting us all from SWBTS--not to mention exposing the abuse of the devils in charge--makes us all feel much better.

I, for one, will sleep easy tonight, almost as if old Ben himself were back at his position.

Please give us some more really, really soon.

With that, I am...

Peter

Anonymous said...

what I would like to know is did anyone not know about these things long before now?? a poor economy doesn't make this any less "obscene!" the very LAST thing that should go is the childcare center but I guess his and her royal highness are way past the childbearing years and don't have any potential need for that "needless expense"...

Anonymous said...

...uh, sorry...meant to say "a good ecomomy doesn't make this any less obscene..."

Thy Peace said...

I know this is not kosher in SBC, but here it goes.

I say Men and Women should share in cooking and cleaning. The world would be a much better place if men cooked three days a week and women did the same. On the Seventh day, they should go out to eat. :-)

David Richardson said...

As a 1993 MDiv grad of Southwestern, I am deeply bothered to read this. What a shame to see this happen.

How on earth the Pattersons can continue their luxurious lifestyle while the seminary struggles is beyond me.

Thanks for posting this. It was eye-opening for me!

Wanda said...

Wade,

I must address the following item in your list of changes at SWBTS:

(6) SWBTS also announced on Dec. 12th that the Naylor Children's Center will close. Naylor is a full-time daycare for students and working parents who are members of the seminary family. 41 people currently work at the center and will lose their jobs and approximately 100 parents will be forced to find other daycare facilities that will be much more expensive than what families paid at the Naylor center.

Wade, let me assure you that this decision has nothing to do with the economy. History has repeated itself!

I remember when Paige Patterson announced the closing of the Ruby Reid Child Development Center in Wake Forest, North Carolina when he was President of SEBTS. The center was owned by the seminary and closed on January 31, 2001, because it did not fulfill the mission of the seminary.

Here's the rest of the story.

Some parents got together and decided to incorporate the Ruby Reid Child Development Center. It re-opened under new ownership on August 1, 2001, and continues to operate very successfully today.

I just phoned Ruby Reid's director, and she graciously provided me with this update. Perhaps families using the Naylor Children's Center could do likewise. I want to encourage them to give the good folks at Ruby Reid Child Develoment Center a call or send them an e-mail (check their website for pertinent information).

I am saddened for the families and staff at Naylor Children's Center, and I will be praying for God's leading.

Anonymous said...

Often, presidents of institutions of higher learning are paid in part from foundation funds, as someone posting above seemed to mention. The ability to arrange for this permits the institution to find and keep a really good president. However, when the economy turns downward as it has recently in the U.S. and even foundation funds are adversely affected, there's a good chance--like it or not--that the reduction will show up somehow in regard to the president. A "watch and see" approach to Dr. Patterson and his position is advisable at this time. Otherwise, I agree with Wade (and am glad to know that he'd take the hit first among the staff he serves with): many senior pastors are paid well-above the average of senior pastors across the SBC, while many associate ministers are paid well-below the average to start with. Senior pastors who are wise, in my opinion, will seek to take care of their associate ministers in every way--and especially financially. More on this from recent personal experience, but not at this blogsite . . .

In God's economy, all is well.


David

Darby Livingston said...

"Doesn't Sister Dorothy know how to cook???"

Some women know how to cook. Others set up seminary programs to teach other women how to cook. Maybe the home ec department at SW was cut before she could take any classes. :)

Anonymous said...

DAVID said, 'A "watch and see" approach to Dr. Patterson and his position is advisable at this time."

David, you must not be on the chopping block. What will it take for 'some' of Patterson's hangers-on to wise up?

But David, you are not the problem.

The problem is all the good Baptist people who looked away while Patterson did the deed on Dr. Klouda and those missionaries.
They 'looked away' and their sin is now out in the open as Patterson's axe continues to fall.

David, are we more concerned about Patterson's reputation as a 'great leader' that we have to spend more on him to keep him in the style to which he and Dorothy have become accustomed?

Wow.

P.S. Here is a special gift of humble pie: A recipe for a wonderful meal that costs pennies and can be prepared easily by the Patterson's chefs:

A.J. MUSTE MEMORIAL SUPPER
(Fish heads and rice)

(A.J. was a 'homeless' soul, and who knows, might be with Jesus as we speak.:)

Ingrediants: fish heads, dandelion greens, a handful of rice, an iron pot over an open fire, and anything else you can find in the trash that still looks usable.

1. First, you have to beg the
fish heads from a fish monger.
He will feel so sorry for you,
that he will throw in some
good pieces of fish with the
heads (unless he is a
Calvinist, wink-wink )

2. You need to pick dandelion
greens. Most bums migrate
around the country in the
winter to the 'sun belt'
where dandelions are plentiful

3. A handful of rice costs very
little. You do need the rice
for full flavor and B vitamins

4. Boil up the fish-heads in
netting to create the stock.
(When stock is done, discard
the fish heads. Don't eat them
unless you are starving.)
Add the rice, the dandelion
greens, and the pieces of fish
to the stock. Keep watch
and don't set yourself on fire.

5. Before eating the meal, give
thanks to the Lord for His
Gifts to all of His creatures.
Share your food with all who
need it. Don't throw anything
away. And clean up afterwards.

A.J. MUSTE became famous among 'his people' for this recipe. But he never made money but he didn't need much anyway.
He shared food and the Gospel and made friends. He died somewhere, no one knows where and his grave is unmarked.
He is with Jesus now and he is no longer homeless.

Anonymous said...

Folks have been pointing out the extravagances of the Pattersons for a long time. There were always excuses by their followers. Too bad it takes a downward economy for it to finally be noticed. Don't forget the dog tombstone he erected. Or the 200,000 portrait of himself he commissioned.

Is there a verse somewhere that says that only women have to cook? I must have missed that one. My dad was a corporate executive and used to come home and cook dinner all the time. He was a better cook than my mom.

BTW: How much did it cost to install all the homemaking equipment at SWBTS for that area of study?

Crowder wrote: We as believers must consider the possibility that the current economic hard times are intended for us by the Lord to show us our gross extravagance. If we can do without it in the tough times, then we as good stewards should ask if we can do without it in the good/normal times."

I happen to agree with this. It is going to be interesting to see how this plays out when mega church pastors have to beat money out of folks to continue in their six figure salaries and pay the light bills on their stadium-like buildings. Preaching on the importance of having great sex is hopefully going to start looking pretty shallow in this new reality.

Lydia

Anonymous said...

I can understand why Dr Patterson would close the child care center. I believe he feels that women should be at home with the children fulltime, so it fits in naturally with that belief. I can't understand, however, why they need a fulltime staff in the Patterson home. Doesn't Mrs Patterson do that work in the home?

I can now see why many churches reduce CP funding and send more money to CBF. It's a shame that power corruption invades a Christian organization, but it just shows how fallen we humans really are. I myself have been an example of depravity, so I shouldn't be suprised to see it elsewhere. As it says in Revelation, "Come, Lord Jesus."

Anonymous said...

I am extremely thankful that I am NOT Wade Burleson and will NOT have to answer to God one day for the many things posted on this blog from a slanted point of view and one that casts doubt upon the integrity of people who lead SBC agencies and for allowing comments to stand that are critical of God's servants, inaccurate, misleading and dishonoring to our Heavenly Father.

Heaven help us!

Anonymous said...

am extremely thankful that I am NOT Wade Burleson and will NOT have to answer to God one day for the many things posted on this blog from a slanted point of view and one that casts doubt upon the integrity of people who lead SBC agencies and for allowing comments to stand that are critical of God's servants, inaccurate, misleading and dishonoring to our Heavenly Father.

Mon Jan 05, 11:11:00 AM 2009

Please explain how they are inaccurate. Give specifics, please.

Was Paul being dishonoring to God when he pointed out Peter's bad behavior publicly...on purpose?

You must not be one of them who are losing their jobs.

Anonymous said...

"Though God has promised to provide every need for His people, during recessionary periods it is prudent for Christians to place wants and desires in the back seat in order to ensure that the money provided by God to meet needs is not diverted to fulfill personal whims of those in charge."

Shouldn't this be the case at all times? yes, it should in case anyone needs to know.

And... The person at the top NEVER takes the biggest hit and rarely takes a hit at all. They will be the first to find out the true meaning of those who want to be first, shall be last.

Anonymous said...

Dear Anonymous,

You sound like the Pharisee that prayed thanking God that he was not like the others.

How much is YOUR SALARY in the SBC?

Oh, ye of little faith. . . .

Anonymous said...

AN IDEA:

Take up a collection: and it's going to have to be a big one and offer Patterson a 'golden parachute' to get out (I mean 'retire').

Chances are, he will take the money and run.

He's not stupid.

Numbers are falling. He must have already gone through most of the foundation money. Things are coming out now about his extravagances. He is booting out many of his 'loyalists' to save money. He is not stupid.

He will take a fat severence package and leave. You can bet on it. Might be better for the SBC all around. Some lessons learned are very costly. This lesson is gonna cost you if you keep the guy or parachute him out.

WatchingHISstory said...

Wade

NASS at New Bellevue Baptist Church Open Forum has tied into you post with a picture of Steve and Donna Gaines "Tightening the belt at the top"

I have stated openly that the reason for the layoffs are not the fault of Steve Gaines but the large drop in attendance and financial support which was greatly
affected by the walk out of Joyce Rogers. When she left Bellevue and "hopped" over to Germantown Baptist then "hopped" over to Faith Baptist she drew away many families who followed her lead. This was a large financial drop.

Thoes layed off are laborers and they have her to thank for their situation.

Surely Adrian Rogers must be saying in heaven, Joyce "what were you thinking?"

WatchingHISstory said...

I am off-topic because I am not allowed to contribute to the "open forum" over there, so please don't delete me till they have had a chance to read my response.

I have no axe to grind with Joyce Rogers but I am just stating the facts madam.

Anonymous said...

Why pick on Patterson?
God rewards some and not others.
Those God chooses to reward are His business.
Why envy Patterson? Envy is a sin.
Patterson has earned his perks.
God is in charge here.
People should shut up and mind their own business.

Bob Cleveland said...

Personally, I think all this turmoil and the like ... the surfacing of extravagance ... the fall in income ... the attention drawn to the "power structure" mentality l... may just be God preparing us for the end times. Before that happens, I think He's going to call HIS church our of our "ekklesia", since the one we've assembled doesn't seem fit for the life to come. And certainly doesn't look like something Jesus would build.

You gotta open up the wound to get out the infection, sometimes. Break through the scabs and scars to get at the real problem.

Anonymous said...

I'm so sorry to hear about the Naylor center closing. I absolutely do not think that my husband and I could have made it through SWBTS in 3 years without the wonderful care my daughter received at Naylor. The center also provided employment for seminary wives that enabled their husbands to get through seminary, as well.

I'm also a bit shocked by the househelp the Patterson's have.

I'm also sad that those with experience are being let go as a "cost saving" measure. What a shame. There used to be some really great folks there that served on the staff.

Wanda said...

WatchingHIStory said:

"I have stated openly that the reason for the layoffs are not the fault of Steve Gaines but the large drop in attendance and financial support which was greatly
affected by the walk out of Joyce Rogers. When she left Bellevue and "hopped" over to Germantown Baptist then "hopped" over to Faith Baptist she drew away many families who followed her lead. This was a large financial drop."

My question is:

Did Joyce Rogers leave her beloved Bellevue because of the pedophile cover-up? There are consequences to sin, especially when committed by pastors.

If Joyce left for this reason, she gets my wholehearted support because I would have made the very same decision.

Ray said...

As a young "buck Sergeant" in the Army I learned a hard lesson on leading by example. A lesson that my First Sergeant was all too happy to give me.

Because of that, my church members are not surprised to find me mopping a floor, fixing a plumbing leak on the Baptistery (like I did Saturday), or wrapping sprinkler pipes in the attic in July so they don't freeze in January. I have no personal ax to grind against Paige, but true leadership entails making sacrifices and looking out for the welfare of those below you.

WatchingHISstory said...

Wanda

Read my blog post please, thanks

http://watchinghidtory.blogspot.com/

NativeVermonter said...

Our main teaching elder has forgone health insurance for his family so he could keep paying those on staff.

That's what leaders do.

And Ray, I clean our church every week and remain honored to do so. Good words.

Anonymous said...

Maybe the Pattersons could replace their kitchen staff, housekeepers, and cleaning and serving staff, with the wives of students who need to earn some money.

That, at least, would serve two purposes:

the Pattersons will not be inconvenienced and
the people, directly impacted by the 'cuts', will have a chance to earn a little money.

Maybe a third purpose: the wives of the seminary students will see what awaits them if their husbands play ball and rise in the SBC.

Anonymous said...

God rewards some and not others.
Those God chooses to reward are His business.
Why envy Patterson? Envy is a sin.
Patterson has earned his perks.
God is in charge here.
People should shut up and mind their own business.

Mon Jan 05, 11:36:00 AM 2009


You can read all about 'rewards' in Matthew. I certainly would not envy someone who is receiving their reward 'here'.

Anonymous said...

People get the kind of leadership they deserve.

Who's YOUR leader?

The one who was instrumental in putting Jesus's Words and Actions out of the 2000 BF&M as the prime source of guidance for the SBC?

Or the ONE whose words and actions got side-lined?

Who's YOUR leader?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said: "I am extremely thankful that I am NOT Wade Burleson and will NOT have to answer to God one day for the many things posted on this blog from a slanted point of view and one that casts doubt upon the integrity of people who lead SBC agencies and for allowing comments to stand that are critical of God's servants, inaccurate, misleading and dishonoring to our Heavenly Father."

Good grief, Anonymous, you are a disgrace to the anonymous name with that comment! From now on I am going to have to distance myself from you and will, henceforth, be called, "NOT Anonymous!"

Yours truly,

NOT Anonymous

Anonymous said...

"Pecan Manor"
You're kidding.

What is that, the SBC White House?

TN Lizzie said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
He Calls It Right said...

Peter Lumpkins wrote:

What an awesome post! Just to know you are on the frontlines protecting us all from SWBTS--not to mention exposing the abuse of the devils in charge--makes us all feel much better.

I, for one, will sleep easy tonight, almost as if old Ben himself were back at his position.

Please give us some more really, really soon.

With that, I am...


Peter, in keeping with the spirit of our blog host, who has encouraged us to never attack individuals, but only challenge activities, writings, or positions of those individuals, I would like to offer the following.

Peter, you are a blood-bought, soul-forgiven, heaven-bound, eternally redeemed brother in Christ. You also write like an ass. You are a saint, a child of God, a member of the family of Christ to which we both belong. You also write like an ass.

With that, I am . . .

Your brother in Christ who loves you enough to tell you that you write like an ass.

Anonymous said...

We get the leaders we create.
Peter Block

Anonymous said...

Hee-haw.

Anonymous said...

Lumpkins is paid for, all right.

Kate Johnson said...

"In the beginning the church was a fellowship of men and women centering on the living Christ. Then the church moved to Greece where it became a philosophy. Then it moved to Rome where it became an institution. Next, it moved to Europe , where it became a culture. And, finally, it moved to America where it became an enterprise." - Richard Halverson, former chaplain of the United States Senate

Does this apply to seminaries?

Steve said...

Kate,

What a great quote. That is going in my files

Wanda said...

Anonymous said...
"Maybe the Pattersons could replace their kitchen staff, housekeepers, and cleaning and serving staff, with the wives of students who need to earn some money."

Here's another idea . . .

The Patterson's hired help should be replaced by the students majoring in "Homemaking". Then Dorothy can grade them on how well they are learning these college level skills. Seems like a WIN-WIN to me.

I wonder how many students at SWBTS have declared "Homemaking" as their major.

Greg Alford said...

(7). While SWBTS staff and faculty are being laid off and salaries reduced, the Pattersons continue to maintain a large personal staff. Mrs. Patterson has an assistant and a research assistant. Dr. Patterson has an executive assistant, secretary, personal assistant, and four interns. The Pattersons also have a large staff at their house. They have employeed at least one chef, though it is widely believed there are at least two chefs, possibly more, on the payroll. There are a minimum of four hostesses/servers, a director for the Presidential house, two people who are paid to walk their dogs, and other staff paid to clean their cars and do other household chores and errands for the Pattersons.

This is absolutely “OUTRAGIOUS”!!!

And to think that this exercise of gross indulgence and excess is being paid for by the dimes of little old ladies on fixed incomes who faithfully put their offerings in the plate believing that they are giving to the CP in order to support missions work… Unbelievable!

If all this is paid for by “Foundation Funds”… that fact does not make it any less disgusting… Those “Foundations” were established for the work of the Lord, not to allow some SBC Fat-Cat to wallow in luxury.

In good times or bad times this is disgusting… I think I will go throw-up now!

Grace Always,

Benjie said...

Interestingly enough, I just finished a chapter in a leadership book I'm reading. The author suggests that one of the seven characteristics of a "Healthy Christian Leader" is sacrifice. He quotes Johann Wolfgang von Goethe in the closing paragraphs of the chapter:

"He who would be a good leader must be prepared to deny himself much."

Perhaps we could all learn from these words.

Lin said...

If anyone is interested in the 'granddog' tombstone picture I wrote about it a few years ago along with some of the expensive updates for 'Pecan Manor' and the taxidermy bills for his big game kills to decorate his office.

http://coffeetradernews.blogspot.com/2007/03/pattersons-high-life.html

Anonymous said...

Who is left to give P the heave-ho?
All the people in power are HIS people, and 'HIS' doesn't refer to the Lord, it refers to P.
Everyone who had integrity and operated on conscience is long gone.

What can be done other than to buy these guys out before they can do any more damage, and take back the SBC for Christ?

Anonymous said...

I guess it was all about the power and the money after all.

DUPED

Anonymous said...

Those folks who ususally come on board with their: 'don't be hasty and don't rush to judgment, let's give this time, and give P the benefit of the doubt'

MAYBE, THEIR SALARIES HAVE BEEN CUT TOO.

They are noticably quieter.
But, it ain't over, 'til it's over.
Let's see who pops up to defend the status quo THIS TIME.

Wanda said...

WatchingHISstory said...
"Read my blog post please, thanks
http://watchinghidtory.blogspot.com/"

Yes, I checked out this blog. With the resurgence of reformed theology, I'm not surprised at this attack on Adrian Rogers' anti-Calvinistic beliefs. Let's be honest, that's the real purpose of this blog.

The problem I have with many five-point Calvinists is that they are unyielding to those who have a different theological view regarding election. How will they ever evangelize a lost world?

I also Googled Joyce Rogers and Paul Williams. Joyce claimed on the local news that her husband knew nothing of the pedophilia that occurred under his watch. Until that claim can be proven otherwise, I will accept Joyce's position.

Thanks for responding.

Bob Cleveland said...

Wanda,

To be frank, I don't know any of those unyielding Calvinists; the refusals to acknowledge seem to come from those who do not hold to those beliefs.

Baptists seem fond of saying things like that ABOUT Calvinists, but I don't hear the Calvinistic side hurling such insults back.

Anonymous said...

TIME FOR REFORM ?

The following excerpts are taken from a interview with Dr. Paige Patterson, President of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, conducted by Dr. Mark Dever and Mr. Matt Schmucker of the Center for Church Reform. An audio CD of the hour-long interview is available from CCR (phone 202.543.1224). The transcript has been slightly edited to fit accepted literary style and, where necessary, for clarification.

Dever: Hasn't the need for reform in the history of the church always been true, given human nature.

Patterson: Given human nature, that's exactly right.
Given human nature, and the thirst for power and influence and prestige, the church will forever be having to take a look at itself and asking how much is being influenced by the world philosophy around it, how much materialism has seeped into the lining of the church, and how much the desire for recognition and prestige has passed by the desire for holiness.

So, forever, we'll have to do that and we must each individually examine our own hearts on a regular basis about this, too.

'HOW MUCH THE DESIRE FOR RECOGNITION AND PRESTIGE HAS PASSED BY THE DESIRE FOR HOLINESS . . . . . "

how prophetic.

Maybe Patterson will examine his own heart as he leaves out the back door of the SBC once there is no more money. Ain't likely to happen.

Anonymous said...

A five-point Calvinist evangelizing a 'lost' world?

That's an oxymoron.
Why would they bother?

Anonymous said...

Dear Brother Bob: Let me introduce you to one of those Calvins that don't mind throwing insults and smears. Please read ALL of what Charles Page posts; especially those about Paul Williams. I am serious; take the time to read them all. Some are pornographic in their details. Don't be confused by this mis-guided man. Then tell me if you don't agree with Wanda. She is right.

Mr. Page is a very sick and confused man. I pray for him daily. I ask you join me too.

Anonymous said...

But BOB CLEVELAND, if a person is a five-point Calvinist, they believe that what is done is done.
God has ALREADY chosen his elect.
The 'lost' cannot be saved.
There is no hope for them in five-point Calvinism, is there?

johnthebaptist said...

Wade,

Thanks for shedding light where some prefer to keep it dark. : )

I enjoy your blog eventhough I don't always agree. I also enjoy watching your services from time to time on the internet. I look forward to reading your new book when available. Blessings to you!


WatchingHisstory ---- Charles, once again you have your "facts" wrong in regards to Mrs. Rogers. She didn't "hop" to GBC then to Faith. She attended GBC while looking for a new church home, which is now Faith Baptist. I will not tell you why she left. Mrs. Rogers reasons for leaving are her business and not for you to embellish.

The people have been leaving Bellevue by the droves not because of Mrs. Rogers, but because of the many "errors in judgement" while travaling in "uncharted waters" by Steve Gaines.
The waters are charted now. Not much has changed.
All the issues are well documented and need not be rehashed here.



Your personal attacks against Dr. and Mrs. Rogers are evil and sad.

NativeVermonter said...

First, I am soooo DONE with anonymous comments. While my departure would hardly be missed, I'm just about to the point of deleting Grace & Truth to You from my favorites because of these anonies.

Second, if you have a problem with those of us who believe the Doctrines of Grace then what is that to us? Sorry, we're too busy rowing the boat doing Kingdom work to notice. You can keep throwing the arrows though, we're used to it.

Anonymous said...

Please let's not go down Calvin/Arminian lane on this thread.

BTW: Patterson is not a Calvinist. He appears to adhere to the prosperity gospel. Seems we can see some of his defenders do, too. :o)

Wanda said...

Anonymous said,
"Please let's not go down Calvin/Arminian lane on this thread."

I apologize for leading in this direction, but I was responding to WatchingHIStory's invitation to visit a certain blog.

I consider myself to be a 3.0 Calvinist, and I try to get along with both theological viewpoints.

By the way, I love your sense of humor!

Blessings,

Wanda

Anonymous said...

Wanda,

It's not about Calvinism. That's a smokescreen. Many people left Bellevue long before Mrs. Rogers departed. If anything, she "followed" them. Did you read this one? How about this one or this one? Did you read the pie in the face story? That's a good one!

Native Texan (for you, Native Vermonter)

Anonymous said...

Texan,

You're right, and Steve Gaines holds the same theological views as Adrian Rogers, yet Mr. Page never criticizes Steve Gaines for his anti-Calvinist views. He only sees visions, hears voices, and criticizes a dead man and his widow.

Native Arkansan

Anonymous said...

PIE FACE,

I prefer chocolate. All this talk about pies is making me hungry!

Native Arkansan

Bob Cleveland said...

When we formed Covenant Presbyterian Church, We formulated our operating budget, then added 50% to it. That third of the budget went directly to missions. Not to a cooperative program that funded a lot of other things, but only to missions.

I've yet to see a Southern Baptist Church that does that.

And I repeat; in 34 years in Birmingham, I have never ever been asked the "Key Question" by a Baptist. EVERY time I've been witnessed to, it's by a Presbyterian.

Don't tell me Calvinism equates with a lack of missionary zeal. It's just not true.

Native Arkansan said...

Testing

Word verification: navermutr

Is that how they say "Native Vermonter" up Nawth?

That's a purty profile foto, anonym... uh... Native Vermonter!

Steve said...

I love this quote:

Patterson has earned his perks.

One of organized religion's great go-along-to-get-along guys, Dr. Patterson's posing and fakery has made him a wonderful worldly career. As long as wizards (in and out of Oz) can keep their green curtains carefully hung and the yokels fooled, the life of Riley will be theirs to enjoy. Surely there won't be any rending of such lovely curtains!

Native Arkansan said...

Re that photo of Paige Patterson: I thought the good guys always wore white hats.

Wade Burleson said...

Native Arkansan,

Please, take no offense, but I think I could almost draw a replica of the world on the belly you display in your profile picture. :)

Thou almost persuadest me to go back to anonymous comments.

:)

Native Arkansan said...

"I think I could almost draw a replica of the world on the belly you display in your profile picture."

Hands off the belly, Wade! I'm not one of them thar kind of guys if you git my drift. Besides, that's just the western hemisphere you're seein' in that foto.

Wade Burleson said...

That's funny.

volfan007 said...

What? Wade has a problem with SWBTS? Tell me it aint so? I'm just shocked!!!!


David

Chris said...

I saw a poster that was meant to critique elements of the emerging church once: it said "We took a vow of poverty, but you give all your money to the poor."

At first I laughed, then I realized that that was the very thing Jesus did when He was talking to a certain rich young ruler. Perhaps Patterson needs to be given the same advice Jesus gave that ruler...

Debbie Kaufman said...

david, Peter: You don't see this as a problem? Tell me it ain't so.

Stephanie said...

"I can understand why Dr Patterson would close the child care center. I believe he feels that women should be at home with the children fulltime, so it fits in naturally with that belief."

Precisely! However, tuition costs have soared to an unbelievable rate that most wives MUST work outside the home to support their husbands who are going to school full-time and also working either mostly full-time jobs or full-time jobs. (SWBTS has started frowning on students who don't do the program as written and who take more time to complete their coursework than the "average" student.) Most of these students don't have health care and most of them live on a shoe string budget and can barely make ends meet. The rely on food pantries, clothes closets, thrift stores, and even public assistance to make it through seminary. That, in itself, is a travesty in my opinion.

The Naylor Child Care Center provided a vital ministry to these families who needed quality childcare at a reasonable price. I don't understand how this ministry doesn't fit the goals and purposes of SWBTS. Without the ministry provided by the child care center, some students may be forced to drop out of school or severely cut back on their coursework.

When finances are tight for me and my husband, we cut back on the "fluff", hobby expenditures, eating out, entertainment, high dollar clothes and shoes, and we start doing things ourselves instead of paying others to do things for us. That's what needs to happen at SWBTS with the Pattersons and Pecan Manor (Yes, that's what Paige dubbed it when they moved in. Prior to that, it was just "the President's house".)

It's an oxymoron to say that one's a leader and a minister when he's not willing to live like those he leads and ministers to. What a slap in the face to those students who can hardly afford living expenses to have hired help at home. Such a shame and so wrong!

BTW, I heard on the local (DFW) news tonight that in an effort to further cut back on expenses, all foreign travel has been suspended.

Stephanie, 2002 SWBTS grad

Wade Burleson said...

Okie Dokie, posters.

Please keep comments on topic.

Those off topic deleted.

Anonymous said...

Anon 10:44,

I'm a "nothing"--neither a "hanger on" nor a "letter 'er go". I did my time at SWBTS, paid my dime to attend SWBTS, and am not easily impressed by anything either by or about SWBTS--or any other SBC seminary. I provided objective info about how some presidents of institutions are paid--and a suggestion or two about what the outcome here might be. Simple.

What's your deal?


David

Anonymous said...

That's "let 'er go".


David

Anonymous said...

Maybe Dr. Patterson and 'clan' should follow the example of FEDEX, which has never laid off anyone in its entire history. Fred Smith, CEO took a 20% cut and all upper mgmt took a 10% cut, with 401(k) supplements being cancelled. Other employees will see no increase until 2010...or more likely 2011.
Can we say 'teamwork' at FEDEX(which employees a lot of Bellevue BC, Memphis members) or 'entitlements' 'enrichments' at SWBTS????
Which is the Biblical 'model' in your mind?

Native Arkansan said...

SWBTS has started frowning on students who don't do the program as written and who take more time to complete their coursework than the "average" student.

Wait a minute. Why would they frown on that? Students takin' longer to complete their degrees means more tuition money, and more tuition money means more money available for keepin' up Pecan Manor (snicker) and supportin' the Pattersons in the manner in which they're accustomed. "Someone bring my black Stetson and fetch me a mint julep!"

Anonymous said...

This thing smells like TV preachers -- in essence about power, glamor, and money. The means toward these is different but the end sounds exactly the same. I think Baptists don't have popes

Tony

Tim G said...

Debbie and Wade,
Are you sure you have all the facts? Do you know for sure how the Cowboy Hats were purchased? Do you know for sure who is paid and who is not and for what work?

Hmmm, a few phone calls and I have already learned more than this post reveals - which is old news from many weeks back anyway.

Wade, I thought you up with the times and current. You can do better than this!

Wade Burleson said...

Tim,

Feel free to share what you learned. I am sure the professors who are actually employed by SWBTS would appreciate it, particularly since they seem to think it is not "old news."

Jason Epps said...

Wade -

Two questions if you have the time:

1) Has Patterson been cornered by any kind of a reporter seeking answers to these concerns? If so, what was his response?

2) I know it's your blog, but would you ever consider disallowing anonymous posts?

The Utes are #1,
Jason

Anonymous said...

Tim G, I would sure like to hear what you have learned.

I don't know Dr Patterson any more on a casual basis like I use to in college, 1971-74. I know two or three things from back then that I would bet my life still holds true today.

#1 Dr Patterson seemed to live larger than the meager salary that FBC Fayettville, AR paid him back in the 1970's. For quite some time I have assumed that there is an inheritance, book royalties, or wise investments that have allowed the Pattersons to live a certain lifestyle. I would wager that some of these "assistants" are paid out of the Patterson's personal pockets and not by the seminary.

#2 Dr and Mrs Patterson are givers. I know they gave me over a $100 worth of books to start my pastoral library back in 1971. I could give other instances where the Pattersons gave to college students, supported evangelism projects, etc.

#3. Dr and Mrs Patterson have always gone the second mile on hospitality... entertaining people, hosting dinners, etc. So what is so wrong with Mrs Patterson calls the President's house "Pecan Manor"? She is a southern lady who was raised in a southern culture that rarely exists today. But she saw her responsibility as a pastor's wife to open up her home as use it as a ministry tool through entertaining, dinners, Bible Studies, etc. In all my 56 years of living have I known or heard of any woman who use her home as a gift of hospitality to support the ministry or position of her husband like Dorthy Patterson.

#4. I know I am biased, but when you have gone street witnessing with Dr Patterson on a Friday night on Dixon Street in Fayettville, witnessing outside of bars, breaking up fights and having a knife drawn on you ... it's hard to believe some of the baloney people write about him.

Dr Patterson was my pastor in college and God used him greatly in my life. God has used other men and pastors to influence my life, one of which is Paul Burleson and Mary,his lovely wife. Even though it has been many years since my time of fellowhip with Bro Paul, I would defend him and Mary to be the people of God that knew them to be back in 1976 -1979. My point is that I don't think all the story about Dr and Mrs Patterson is being represented here and people are drawing conclusions without all the facts. As is typical with our fallen nature, we always look for and assume the worst and not the best with each other.

David Spriggs

Anonymous said...

For a man who thinks that a seminary education is unnecessary, you sure like critiquing SBC seminaries, their presidents and faculty.

It’s kind of like a vegetarian telling McDonalds what’s wrong with their hamburgers!

WatchingHISstory said...

Is there anyone who understands my pie story? The trauma was real and the pain was deeply hidden.

Supernaturally God intervened and healed me. I forgave the pie thrower though I don't know who it was. Forgiving your perpetrator is essential to healing.

Wade, I apologize for the off-topic remarks. Did you read them seriously inspite of my latin.
Would you do a post sometime about Belevue and the fair/unfair treatment of Steve Gaines? Would you allow a balance of opinions rather than a dominance of NASS' crowd?

WatchingHISstory said...

David Spriggs

Thanks for your side of the story.

Anonymous said...

David,

What did you think of how he treated Dr. Klouda?

Lydia

Anonymous said...

It's interesting to note that you do not have one shred of evidence to support your claims. Where are the documents, statments by employees, etc? Once again, you have taken a shot at a man you and Bishop Ben hate without proof. Get the proof, post it and let us sort through it. Otherwise, you continue to slander as usual.

Wanda said...

Anonymous said:
"It's interesting to note that you do not have one shred of evidence to support your claims. Where are the documents, statments by employees, etc?"

With regard to Wade's claim about the closing of Naylor Children's Center (item 6), here is information taken directly from the SWBTS website:

"Welcome to the Naylor Children's Center. With the growing uncertainty in the nation’s current economic situation, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary finds itself in the unenviable position of making difficult decisions to protect the institution from future financial crisis. Following the Board of Trustees’ recommendations, reductions in the budget were made including the suspension of the work of the Naylor Children’s Center on campus for at least 18 months. Work at the Naylor Children’s Center was suspended as of December 31, 2008."

Is that a slanderous claim?

You owe Wade an apology on this point.

Wade Burleson said...

Wanda,

I don't pay attention to any anonymous comments, so I wouldn't pay any attention to anonymous apologies.

Thanks, though.

Blessings,

Wade

Wade Burleson said...

David,

Good word about Dr. Patterson.

The issue regarding this post is not Dr. Patterson's character, but a board of trustees who would allow morale of staff and professors to sink by allowing (or making) decisions that give evidence of a priority to care for the CEO and not the employees.

Blessings,

Wade

Anonymous said...

I'm sure that when the Patterson's landed at SWBTS they were sure that they would have a similar or greater impact to the one they had at SEBTS.

There were a few differences in the areas however. In DFW Patterson is a small fish in a very large pond. Even in religious circles he is dwarfed by what goes on at 1st Baptist Dallas or Prestonworld.

SWBTS is no longer THE conservative seminary in the SBC as its reputation was pre resurgence (even under Dilday!) In those days if an SBCer wanted to attend a conservative seminary they essentially had no choice but to attend SWBTS. Now many of those students are staying closer to home to attend any of the other SBC seminaries.

BGCT pastors are sending their students to Logsden or Baylor. Patterson holds a bitter taste in the mouths of many pastors in the state mainly due to his prosecution of the resurgence.

When Patterson hit Texas it was with all the arrogance that Patterson is famous for,he was not content to live in a presidents house - he had to expand it and turn it into Pecan Manor, add all the staff and then thought that just his name would bring the seminary back to its previous levels, wrong on so many counts.

Then he proceeds to run off in ever so subtle ways the proffs that were known and loved and brought in his sycophants, paid off debts (hello David Allen).

If there is anyone with a backbone left at SWBTS with any business sense I dont know who it is. They needed someone who can tell Patterson NO, and could have kept the financial house in order as the enrollment continued to decrease.

I would not be surprised at this point if the EM school (who are the stepchildren of SWBTS did not have a larger enrollment than the Theology school. And the psychology and counseling program is probably the largest concentration at SWBTS these days. Funny thing is, I doubt very much that Patterson is much of a fan of traditional Christian Counseling!

The trustees had better start looking for an exit strategy. They will then need to bring in a sharp business administrator along with a fund raising genius as the new president.

The Drs Patterson need to go on the speaking circut and leave the entities alone.

Jim Champion

volfan007 said...

Wade,

You seem to be so concerned about Southwestern. What about all the budget cuts at the other seminaries? If I'm reading things right, other SB seminaries are cutting thier budgets as well. These are hard economic times that we're going thru.

Also, about salaries being too much, I'd have to agree with you that some salaries are too high. What does Dr. Mohler make a year? What about Morris Chapman? What about Dr. Akin? Would you share these salaries with us as well? Are they not a concern to you?

Also, how much do you make per year? Would you tell us that? I mean, you're so concerned about what everyone else is making...maybe you should share what you make with us? And, I mean the total package...including all the perks.

I make $62,000 per year from my Church....total. That includes medical insurance, retirement, mileage reimbursement, etc...everything.

What about you?

David

Whistlin Dixie said...

Wade,

Will SWBTS still pay their Social Security employer contribution on the janitors? If so, how does Dr. Patterson justify cutting all retirement for ordained ministers on the faculty who have opted out of Social Security. If it wasn't for the federal government, would Dr. Patterson cut the janitor's compensation too?

Whistlin Dixie

Benji Ramsaur said...

In harmony with #2 by David Spriggs, let me say I remember Patterson saying he and his wife give, if I remember correctly, at least 20% of their income to the local church.

And in the light of the reason as to why they did this, I do not believe their practice has changed.

I also think it would be good for Tim G to reveal specifics he may have as to who paid for what.

I would think there would need to be some care taken as to not only the reality of who paid for what but also how things might "look" to those on the outside.

I also think it would be good for Tim G to make public the number of full time students at SWBTS since I think SB's who give to the cooperative program have a right to know.

In harmony with #3, I remember my Dad saying he was entertained at the Patterson's house when Patterson became president of Southeastern.

I still do not agree with the treatment of Klouda, but I would think even that ultimately falls on the shoulders of the trustees and not Patterson [someone please correct me if I am wrong here].

Benji Ramsaur said...

volfann,

You said "Wade, ...Also, how much do you make per year? Would you tell us that? I mean, you're so concerned about what everyone else is making...maybe you should share what you make with us? And, I mean the total package...including all the perks."

I think this information should be open to those who are giving to pay for Wade's paycheck.

You and I do not give as members of Emmanuel Baptist Church. Therefore, I do not think it is any of our business.

Paige Patterson and SWBTS, on the other hand, is a different story.

And I think you know why.

volfan007 said...

Benji,

If someone is complaining about how much someone makes per year, then dont you think that it's helpful to see what the complainer is making? I mean, if you're gonna complain about me having chocolate ice cream, then dont do it with a mouth full of rocky road. Amen?

Also, why does Wade not ever talk about Morris Chapman's salary? Dr. Chapman is the head of the SBC Exec. Committee...why doesnt Wade point out his salary? or the budget cuts at the other SB seminaries?

Why do Ben and Wade seemed to be so fixated and obsessed with Southwestern?

David

Anonymous said...

It's a new day, remember.

The B.H. Carroll Theological Institute--whose "campus" is your church's campus--and institutions like it probably are the way in the future, with theological education provided closer to home where new congregations with new ways to reach different people are desperately needed (folks going away to seminary ever returned home to start new churches). In the "old days," seminaries like SWBTS were the only way to receive solid theological training (quit your job, say "Bye" to your church family, pack up the family and move); but not any more.

Is some of this (the postings above in this thread) the feeling a person has when he's put all his eggs in one basket, then drops that basket? Maybe so!


David

Anonymous said...

That's, ". . . never returned home to start new church" . . .


David

Wanda said...

David,

Maybe Wade is concerned about his Alma Mater. Makes sense to me!

Benji Ramsaur said...

volfann,

You said "If someone is complaining about how much someone makes per year, then dont you think that it's helpful to see what the complainer is making?"

Wade Burleson helps pay and shepherd's a flock that helps pay and is a member of a denomination that helps pay for Paige Patterson's paycheck.

Paige Patterson does not help pay and does not shepherd a flock that helps pay and is not a member of a denomination that helps pay for Wade Burleson's paycheck.

Therein lies the difference in my thinking.

Grace

Benji

Benji Ramsaur said...

volfann,

You said "Why do Ben and Wade seemed to be so fixated and obsessed with Southwestern?"

If I remember correctly, Ben Cole asked for all of the entity heads to reveal their salaries.

volfan007 said...

Wanda,

Southwestern is not Wade's Alma Mater. If I remember right, Wade does not have a seminary degree.

Benji,

I'd still like to know. IMHO, it does matter. And, what about the other things that I brought up? About Morris Chapman and the other seminaries, etc?

David

debbiekaufman said...

People are getting laid off at SWBTS, losing their jobs, no income, while Paige and Dorothy Patterson is enjoying the perks of chefs to cook for them, living in a mansion worth how many millions of dollars. David, if you can show me that this is the case with Al Mohler or Morris Chapman, something should be said. I however, have not read of this. I know Wade doesn't enjoy such luxuries, and I have not heard of any layoffs at our church.

People are losing their jobs, yet the money continues to flow. That is just not right. As Christians we are supposed to be different.

I think it's also interesting that a Homemaking class is being pushed,books have been published, on how to be a homemaker, yet Dorothy has paid staff doing her homemaking.

Benji Ramsaur said...

volfann,

You said "I'd still like to know. IMHO, it does matter."

I don't think this is Wade's problem, but your problem [for the reason I have already given].

When you simply assert "it does matter" without giving a reason, then you have not proven your assertion.

You said "And, what about the other things that I brought up? About Morris Chapman and the other seminaries, etc?"

All I know is that people from "SWBTS" have contacted Wade with their complaints and Wade has responded. I have no knowledge of people from other entities contacting Wade.

But even if we granted, for arguments sake, the idea that Wade has an axe to grind, then:

1. I think Wade still has a right to speak out on these issues because of the reason I have already given.

2. I think what ultimately matters [in relation to everyone else] is that the info be accurate so that cooperative program giving people can know what their money is being spent on.

Grace

Benji

Anonymous said...

Good Morning Everyone,

It's me L's

I wondered if incidents like the personal indulgence of 'certain leaders mentioned here' existed in the SBC before the changing of the 1963 Baptist Faith and Message?

What I am asking is this:
when did this kind of extreme material indulgence on the part of those in control become open practice the SBC?

Sad about the Care Center for the children closing. That will hurt a lot of people. :( L's

P.S. Wouldn't it make much more sense, at least for the sake of integrity, that the people doing all the 'laying off', destroying of retirement, and closing of facilities NOT BE the same people receiving all the indulgent perks?

That looks really bad from where I'm at, because it is definitely a conflict of interest when someone has to take from another's welfare in order to sustain their own extravagant lifestyle. :(

Anonymous said...

Dear Wade,

Can the rest of the Southern Baptist people do ANYTHING to rescue some of the people who are being harmed?

Can something be done?

Can you help them? L's

Anonymous said...

I just heard the pastor-emeritus of Congress give an opening prayer to the House of Representatives of the United States.

In the prayer, he asked them to remember the needs of the unfortunate in our country that they could help.

Hearing him speak, brought all the lack of fiscal responsibility at SBTS to the fore in my mind.

Did SOMEONE in authority on that Board of Trustees in charge of money for the Seminary INVEST IT in the stock market and lose it.
Would that kind of thing have been allowed?

A 'foundation' does not invest its capital, as far as I know, which is sacrosanctly reserved for the welfare of the institution.

Who has oversight over the monies that support the SBTS?

Is a report made to the public?
Is there any foundation money left?
Or is everything done 'confidentially' so no one on the outside knows what happened?

What happened to the money?
That is a good place to begin to study to find out why there is so much ABRUPTNESS in the new changes that will cause harm to so many except those at the top?

Wade Burleson said...

David,

SWBTS is not my alma mater. My degrees are in business and finance and my Masters courses in languages and theology are from Luther Rice, with only a few continuing education hours from SWBTS during Dilday's tenure.

I speak out because of our church's million dollars in CP giving over the last eight years.

Wade Burleson said...

I am on my way to Florida. Wishing everyone a great rest of the week.

Anonymous said...

David, if you showed half the concern for those who are going to be impacted severely, your support for your friend Patterson would be easier to swallow.

Patterson doesn't need you right now. The others could use your assistance, though.

Put your energies to work where it will do the MOST good.

Anonymous said...

First they unloaded the ones who would not 'sign'. And the rest did nothing.

Then they unloaded the ones they could pick on 'because they were women'. And the rest did nothing.

Then, they . . . . .

And the rest contacted Wade:

'When I begin to hear from faculty, staff and students at SWBTS then it should be obvious that trouble is on the horizon at SWBTS."


LESSON: stand and watch another be destroyed and think your safe?

. . . when will they ever learn???

Anonymous said...

'bought at a price . . . . '

Did someone forget the meaning of this?

Wanda said...

Wade,

Your blog indicates that you were educated in Texas, so I assumed it was at the Baptist seminary there. Sorry that I was mistaken.

While I am on the topic of making wrong assumptions, I "assumed" that I understood what the Southern Baptist Convention stood for when I became a Southern Baptist just over nine years ago. Ironically, I joined the very same church where the Pattersons were members. Imagine that!

Now I realize I assumed wrong, and I am praying for God's clear guidance. Have a safe trip to Florida!

Blessings,

Wanda

volfan007 said...

Anonymous,

I dont know Dr. Patterson. I know of him, but I dont know him.

Wade,

I notice that you did not tell us what your salary is, nor did you answer about Morris Chapman and Dr. Mohler and the other seminaries cutting budgets. And, oh, btw, have a nice time in sunny, warm Florida!!! vacation? It's good that you can afford a nice vacation like this during times of economic turmoil and layoffs.

Benji,

IF Ben and Wade have an axe to grind...

;)



L's,

The high salaries for entity heads has been going on for a long, long, long time...even before the CR. I remember hearing, back then, that if these men were the head of a secular company that large, they would be making a lot more money than they do being the head of an SBC entity... sooooo, the huge salary that they're making is alright.

David

Anonymous said...

Arrogance? or Humility?
Like all Christians, Patterson must choose one over the other.

Who is like the Lord our God, Who is enthroned on high, Who humbles Himself to behold the things in heaven and on earth? -
Psalm 113:5-6

For though the LORD is high, he regards the lowly...
- Psalm 138:6

Thus says the LORD:
"Heaven is my throne and the earth is my footstool...All these things my hand has made, and so all these things are mine, says the LORD. But this is the man to whom I will look, he that is humble and contrite in spirit, and trembles at my word.
- Isaiah 66:1-2

For thus says the high and lofty One who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy:
"I dwell in the high and holy place, and also with him who is of a contrite and HUMBLE SPIRIT, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite.
- Isaiah 57:15

Yes, the Father is humble in that He ignores human grandeur and chooses to associate with the lowly and poor.
So is Saint Paul, who writes that God chose to save humanity through the "foolishness" of the Cross (I Corinthians 1:23). "but God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise, God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong, God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are" (vvs 27-28).

The fact that the Most High God, Who is Infinite Wisdom and Power, should make the way of salvation "foolish" in the eyes of the world is impossible to comprehend apart from the Divine Humility.


We are accustomed to thinking of the Father in terms of power.
Yes, the Father is omnipotent,
But the Father's heart is meek and humble like the Saviour's.
It is meek for in Him there is nothing brusque or abrupt,
no violence, no fury, but only kindliness, goodness, and affection.
His heart is also humble - not that the Father bows before one greater, as the Son become man bows before His Father, but He attaches no importance to display or appearances.
He prefers the poor means and is united to the voluntary abasement of His Son who took on our nature and suffering.
Scripture states that God is Love (I John 4:8).
The Greek word used for "love" here is agape.
In I Corinthians 13, Paul writes that agape love "is not arrogant...does not insist on its own way" (vvs 4-5) - in other words, it is neither proud nor selfish.
Now pride and selfishness are the antithesis of humility.
So if agape love is neither proud nor selfish, that means agape love is essentially humble. And if God is Agape, then God is essentially humble!

Holy Spirit, who efface Yourself before the Father and Son;
Jesus, meek and humble of heart;
Father God, who humbles Yourself to commune with the lowly.


Arrogance or humility?
What path does a Christian follow?

Benji Ramsaur said...

"IF Ben and Wade have an axe to grind...[concerning how cooperative program money is being spent as cooperative program givers, THEN do you believe they do not have the right to speak out?]"

Anonymous said...

DEAR DAVID,

It's me, L's

David, you wrote this: "I remember hearing, back then, that if these men were the head of a secular company that large, they would be making a lot more money than they do being the head of an SBC entity... sooooo, the huge salary that they're making is alright."

But David, they are not the heads of a SECULAR company.
And that makes ALL the difference.

They wait upon the Lord in their service to the Church and that should be an honorable offering to Him as their service should be consecrated as they care for His people.
Any 'reward' should be in keeping with the spirit of that service. Their salaries should compensate reasonably in light of their work and in light of Whom they ultimately serve.
Do you understand what I am saying?
It's not like a business, David.
Not like the world is, not at all.
L's

Anonymous said...

"I remember hearing, back then, that if these men were the head of a secular company that large, they would be making a lot more money than they do being the head of an SBC entity... sooooo, the huge salary that they're making is alright."

I wish I had a dollar for everytime I have heard that from someone in ministry. It just shows how worldly the thinking has become.

It would be interesting to see if these guys would do it for, say, 50 grand a year (no perks just what any other employee would get) at the seminaries. Wonder how long they would stay around?

Why is it that size or even mission has anything to do with salary in Christendom? Exactly where is the biblical correlation? Or is it just worldly principles applied to Christian entities?

Lydia

volfan007 said...

L's,

You're the one who asked if these high salaries were going on back before the conservative resurgence. I was just answering your question. Yes, they were.

I would agree with you that it should be a ministry and not looked upon as a secular company.

Benji,

Of course, Ben and Wade have the right to speak out. I just wonder why they feel the need to speak out against one man and one entity so much....to the neglect of some others who are making high salaries and cutting budgets and such. Why do you reckon that this is so?

David

Anonymous said...

Hi Lydia,

It's me, L's

I think we were both struck by David's words at the same time.
I am troubled by this.
Something is off balance in this world when good people can 'enjoy' the blessings God gives while viewing the sufferings of those around them. It hurts when I think how much more can be done if people were a little more 'uncomfortable' about the plight of the others.
I think that Christians can take the lead in changing things.
I think we must. God's gifts to us were meant to be shared, not hoarded. L's

Steve said...

Volfan,

You are the one obsessed. Ben Cole no longer works in Enid, has been in DC since the middle of last year, and has not written one thing about PP for over a year.

This is the first post Wade has ever written about the extravagant perks for PP. I think you should take a deep breath and realize some people are not blinded by loyalty to the point of refusing to speak out on matters in need of correction.

Benji Ramsaur said...

"I just wonder..."

Why do you wonder?

Anonymous said...

Thank you, DAVID,

I was hoping that you understood.
I do understand that you spoke up for Dr. Patterson because of his kindness towards you. I can understand that kind of loyalty.
While I don't advocate 'vows of poverty' for Protestants, I would so much like to hear that the leadership is sacrificing their own interests to serve the people under their care and supervision, during a time of financial crisis.
Please pray to that end, David.
Love, L's

volfan007 said...

Steve,

I dont know if you've noticed or not, but I havent been in this blog much lately...at all. I noticed on SBC Voices that Wade had once again gone after SWBTS and Dr. Patterson. I just came by to join in the conversation.

Benji,

Why do you think that I wonder?


L's,

Please read my response to you above. I agree with you. Being the head of an SBC entity should not be thought of as being the head of a secular company. I agree that salaries are inflated, and the perks are extravagant. I was just telling you what I heard back in the day before the CR had led to the takeover of the SBC.... back when the liberals and moderates still had control of the SBC. The salaries were high back then, too...for that day and time. And, I was sharing with you the rationale that I heard for the inflated salaries. Do you understand now? I heard that if they were the head of a secular company that they'd be making a lot more money than they do...so the high salaries were alright. That was what I heard. That's not what I though, nor is it what I think. That was the comments that I heard back then...in trying to answer your question/statement/innuendo about the high salaries and perks that some SBC entity heads enjoy today.

Is that more clear?

sheeeeeeesh


David

volfan007 said...

L's,

Once again, I dont personally know Dr. Patterson.

David

Benji Ramsaur said...

"Why do you think that I wonder?"

I would think that you could answer this question better than I.

Anonymous said...

Sorry you were upset, David.
Yes, I understand now.
Be peaceful. :) Love, L's

Anonymous said...

DAvid, Wonder why the CR leaders did not change the high salaries and all the perks?

By the way, I do not know the answer to this question but did we have a DC lobby before the CR?

Lydia

volfan007 said...

Lydia,

Yes, we had a DC lobby before the CR.

David

Anonymous said...

Jerry Grace wrote:
"Take a look at the list of honoree degree holders from Oral Roberts University and you’ll find every charlatan with a jet plane being honored by those folks. The acts of these people, all of them well known to you are the reason why conservative Christians are considered by those outside the church as being ignorant, easily duped, and shallow. And there are a lot of folks who call themselves Christian that fit that mold marvelously.

As others may write about the tawdry details I will not. What concerns me as Southern Baptists “Are we doing everything we can to prevent something comparable from happening in our denomination?”

May I draw some parallels here; we have executives who rent Cadillac’s, we have fur closets, we have lavish personal libraries, we have agencies who fly their trustees to a resort in California for a trustee meeting but when reporting their expenses to the SBC only show one line. We have writing contracts made between Lifeway and SBC executives where the financial details of those contracts are never revealed. We had jet abuse at NAMB no different than at ORU. If you think there are not parallels in the SBC with ORU just waiting to be exploited by those who wish us harm, you are sadly deceived.

And most certainly for years there has been at the top of our convention almost in lock step TOTAL RESISTANCE to the disclosure of any financial information.

But I am not going to whine about this. I am going to get very specific as to some things we can and should do. And the first is this. Jesus said that if a man asked you to walk a mile, you should walk two. The federal government requires that all public companies must disclose the entire salaries and perks of its top five officers. We don’t disclose anything. I say we should walk the second mile.

In the annual of the Southern Baptist Convention where the financial information is printed of all our various entities I propose the following:

(A) That every individual with the title of Vice President or higher have their salaries, perks, royalties from books, honorariums from speaking or teaching, value of travel provided to spouses be reported as a separate schedule within those financial statements.

(B) And to prevent the creative among you who might juggle the titles, that that list includes no less than the ten highest paid individuals in each agency or seminary.

As I have told you before every Baptist College in this country already is required to report executive salary information every year to the Internal Revenue Service which is accessible by anyone who wants to see it via the internet. If you want to know how to find that information email me at jgrace@comcast.net and I will tell you. If you want to find the salaries of most of the non southern Baptist seminary presidents in this country, I can tell you that as well. You can’t find out anything about our seminary salary structures. Do I want to know what those numbers are? I could care less. Do I want to know why there are people who don’t want people to know what those numbers are? You betcha.

If somebody’s acting like they have something to hide, most of the time they do. But let’s be fair. There are some folks in leadership like Thom Rainer who have taken steps of personal accountability from their own sense of what is prudent. You’ll notice above that I included Lifeway book contracts as disclosable information so do not conclude that I think any of us ought to be exempt from the most rigorous efforts possible to assure our own people and those who watch us that our walk matches our talk."

Lin said...

'As I have told you before every Baptist College in this country already is required to report executive salary information every year to the Internal Revenue Service which is accessible by anyone who wants to see it via the internet. If you want to know how to find that information email me at jgrace@comcast.net and I will tell you. If you want to find the salaries of most of the non southern Baptist seminary presidents in this country, I can tell you that as well. You can’t find out anything about our seminary salary structures. Do I want to know what those numbers are? I could care less. Do I want to know why there are people who don’t want people to know what those numbers are? You betcha."

Are seminaries not required to report this, too? If not, why?

Rex Ray said...

“First they unloaded the ones who would not ‘sign’. And the rest did nothing.
Then they unloaded the ones they could pick on ‘because they were women’. And the rest did nothing. Stand and watch another be destroyed and think you’re safe.”


Soldiers Down
By Ann Rinker and Rex Ray 2-2-04
Please, SBC Leaders, don’t reject BWA
We’ve loved 99 years. Will you now abscond?
47,000,000 Baptist hearts that lift up Jesus.
Will they become wounded soldiers down?

Persecution from enemies, yes,
But from our own astounds!
You said BWA had drifted left.
Innocent soldiers down.

You accused them of downplaying Jesus;
No evidence could be found.
Your untruth against BWA exposed you.
Should you yourselves be down?

You screamed, “Liberal”, but one falsely accused
Yelled in your ear, so bound,
“Repent and turn from your wicked ways!”
One soldier still not down.

Christ warned, “Teaching as doctrines the commands of men.”
Does His concern, so profound,
Expose “BF&M is our doctrinal guideline”,
Demanding unsigned soldiers down?

You claim your interpretation is God.
Your BF&M is renown.
Others must bow to this decree or become
Condemned soldiers down.

Your name “conservatives” is only a camouflage.
Your creed a mandatory crown!
Anyone questioning fundamentalists is labeled
Despised Moderate soldiers down.

Please, Lord, unite our hearts to lift up Jesus.
This prayer should resound.
“Fire unsigned missionaries!” makes Jesus cry,
Betrayed soldiers down.

You’re only content when you dominate.
You say you don’t want to hound.
But when God speaks to some a different way,
More loyal soldiers down.

You agree with Muslims: “No women over men!”
Though their witness has abound.
Christian women who answered God’s call
Became women soldiers down.

Sorry, BWA, our leaders plan to leave.
You see why moderates frown.
Pray for leaders without a paper-god
Or you’ll join soldiers down.

“It’s only politics…Not my concern.”
This fable has been around.
Awake, dear brother, or you’ll become
Another soldier down.


Explanation of fourth paragraph of the poem:
Patterson was the man that screamed, “Liberal”. He was on a committee to ‘investigate’ the BWA. In my opinion, they were trying to find a reason to leave the BWA because of their jealousy that the CBF had been accepted. They reported their ‘findings’ to the SBC Executive Committee. Morris Chapman was the chairman of the committee. The “falsely accused” was a German professor that had his words ‘twisted’ shown by the transcript. Chapman took no part of the blame by saying Patterson wrote the report. When it came time for the SBC to vote, Patterson gave the last speech—without any specifics except his word, he brought new charges that the BWA was gay friendly.

When ‘rules’ prevented CR people in getting rid of ‘unwanted’ professors at SWBTS, they selected Patterson to be the hatchet man. I believe he was proud of the way he accomplished the job by explaining how simple it was. He just told them they could resign with a good recommendation or be fired without one. One that resigned was our interim pastor.

Patterson’s actions has caused more leaks than any bilge pump can handle. If the ship goes down, I’m sure the captain will have a helicopter waiting.

Tim Rogers said...

Brother Benji,

All I know is that people from "SWBTS" have contacted Wade with their complaints and Wade has responded. I have no knowledge of people from other entities contacting Wade.

Who are these people from "SWBTS" that have contacted Wade? Give names. It seems that anonymous comments are very convenient when one desires to make accusations.

Blessings,
Tim

Chris said...

I guess we can't expect Patterson to be a good captain and go down with the ship, huh?

It certainly doesn't sound like he's interested in loosing anything except excellent faculty and students, though.

Tom Parker said...

Tim Rogers:

Do you not understand the damage giving names from SWTS would cause to the people who are losing their jobs or may lose their jobs?

Is it all about the names? Would it change your position at all?

It has been a mighty dangerous environment for sometime in the SBC and I do not think it has changed.

Dissent is rarely allowed and if you do you will pay a high price.

Anonymous said...

INTERVIEW quotes:

"Dever: They would blame you for them being fired or for a lot of people losing their jobs?

Patterson: Or for it just becoming so uncomfortable that they couldn't stay and they of their own volition . . . "

'JUST BECOMING SO UNCOMFORTABLE THAT THEY
COULN'T STAY . . . "

Hmmmm, since we now have insight into what Patterson says will make people LEAVE THE SBC, how can we best use that to help him on his way to even greener pastures elsewhere where the 'sheep' still have money?

Anonymous said...

So TIM ROGERS wants to know who contacted Wade. Of course he does. Let's see if we can help him figure this out:

1. someone who got their throat
ripped out by P.
(support system crashed:
child care, retirement, etc)

2. someone who knows who they CAN
trust, which is why they
contacted WADE

3. someone who knows whom they
cannot trust, which is why
they are not appealing to
the SBC powers-that-be (alias
is "Pals of Patterson"

4. Mr. Rogers, if you think for
one minute that the hammer
wouldn't fall mercilessly
on anyone who called Wade,
if Patterson found out, just
remember what happened to
seventy-seven missionaries,
and one Hebrew Professor
with a very-ill husband.

5. Wade would die first, before
he put anyone in that kind
of danger and YOU know it,
so why trouble yourself to
ask? Wade's reputation is
solid. He is not going to
hurt any innocent people.
That is why they trusted him
and called him.

Hope this helps you sort it out now. Suspect field: the already victimized.

BTW, one wonders how Patterson can sleep nights with this stuff on his conscience? What a mess.

Anonymous said...

THE FALL OF PECAN MANOR:
a parable for our time?

'Matthew 7:'
[26] And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a FOOLISH MAN , which built his house UPON THE SAND :
[27] And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
[28] And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine"


AND THE RAIN DESCENDED

AND THE FLOODS CAME

AND THE WINDS BLEW AND BEAT
UPON THAT HOUSE . . .

AND IT FELL . . .

AND GREAT WAS THE FALL
OF PECAN MANOR . . . .


and the people
were astonished . . .

Anonymous said...

Wade and all:

Here are my thoughts,

1. This is a tough year for all businesses and non-profits. There is going to be lots of belt tightening in lots of places, including SBC seminaries.

2. I don't know much about SWBTS's budget and would not presume to know that unless I were on the Board of Trustees, and even then there would be lots of details that would require some digging into. I am sure that Wade was told the things that are on this blog. I have no way to vouch for them, and I suspect that Wade cannot vouch for them personally. He can only say what his sources told him, but we really can't know how much his sources know vs. what they think they know.

3. I have no comments about chefs, dog walkers, gardeners or what have you. I don't have any of those things and neither do most of the people I know.

I do know that it is human nature to set up a standard in our own mind against which others should live and run their businesses. This is a tricky thing because so much of this can be subjective.

When one of the commenters asked Wade what he made annually, I thought of that.

Some think Patterson makes too much, some think Wade makes too much, some think Dr. Rankin makes too much, some think I make too much. Everyone thinks he makes just the right amount or that he deserves a little more. Isn't that what Rockefeller said 100 years ago?

4. The perks mentioned may have very little impact on the overall budget of the seminary. I don't know.

5. The SBC has approved trustees who are legally and ethically responsible to oversee the management of the seminary finances. I would be very surprised if there is not a lot of hard work going on right now by both seminary executive staff and various trustee committees to try and balance the budget. I know that this is going on at lots of churches nowadays. If you have ever been caught in a budget crunch or had a friend caught in a budget crunch, you may have a different perspective than those who are entrusted to operate and run the organization.

At the end of the day, we are going to have to let the trustees who are responsible for the seminary and the staff that they have hired run the seminary. We don't have any other system.

7. This does make me wonder what those in secular positions are going to do about the same issues. Our country is going through a terrible financial struggle. And yet, the plans for the inauguration are bigger and more expensive than ever. The Prez elect just got a brand new limo (shouldn't he just keep the old one?) yadda, yadda, yadda.

6. We need to do everything that we can do to pray for all of the people who have any responsibility in leading a Christian organization these days. It is going to be a challenge in many ways.

Louis

Anonymous said...

LOUIS wrote: "We need to do everything that we can do to pray for all of the people who have any responsibility in leading a Christian organization these days."


pray also for the people at their mercy, excuse me, for whom they have responsibility.

Anonymous said...

The Prez elect just got a brand new limo (shouldn't he just keep the old one?) yadda, yadda, yadda.

Ordered on Bush's watch, of course.
Probably for McCain.
Something happened on the way to the victory party . . .
it's called democracy at work.

Greg Alford said...

Tim Rogers,

I don’t know Who are these people from "SWBTS" that have contacted Wade?

But I do know that the “vast majority of Southern Baptist hold Pelagian beliefs of some sort or another…”

Grace Always,

Tim G said...

For those who are asking for proof, including Wade, I will give you a simple response:

Make a few calls and ask! it did not take me much time and is why I worded my previous comment the way I did. It seems some in the Blog world will take a comment or two and jump and yet will fail to truly see if the comments are accurate! If the host would have done this, the post would have been written different. It might also be interesting to remember that I commented on a previous post here when this stuff first came up, that other Seminaries and entities, due to the economy, were encountering the same! No one responded and yet now this latest post is treated as NEW????

Benji Ramsaur said...

Tim,

I know people contacted Wade based off this post, not through private e-mail.

I have no names and even if I did, I would want to maintain confidence.

God Bless,

Benji

Anonymous said...

Greg, I take it that you do not hold with the Pelagian 'Heresy' as it has been called, but do you go to the OTHER extreme: mankind is totally depraved? Unable to respond to their consciences and the the moral laws that God imprints on the hearts of all humanity?

In my opinion:
Pelagius went too far one way.
Calvin went too far the other way.

Was Calvin's real goal to totally divorce the nature of mankind from any response-ability as:

A. the elect had NO choices
B. the non-elect had NO choices
and NO opportunities
C. God held all the cards and
He decided for everyone
who would be 'saved' before
they were even created?

I personally think Calvin went too far in his desire to fight against any 'response' of the faithful to God that was active: prayer, charity, service that involved actions done in His Name, and so forth. In my view, the whole walk
of a Christian is one of faith: all actions reflecting that faith.

Calvin selected some verses to emphasis and some scriptural verses to 'de-emphasize, if you will' in support of his theories.

There is a middle way between Pelagius and Calvin that most Christians adhere to. The middle way may be what you are referring to, although many Baptists are full-fledged 'tulip' Calvinists.

About this post: what do you think about the treatment of the SBTS employees and their families?
Do you have any observations about how P could help the situation, without destroying their support systems?

Curious

Benji Ramsaur said...

Louis,

You said "At the end of the day, we are going to have to let the trustees who are responsible for the seminary and the staff that they have hired run the seminary. We don't have any other system."

Who is advocating anything different?

Anonymous said...

Lots of organizations are having financial difficulties.

Cutting back is important but shouldn't start from the top down?

Especially in a 'Christian' organization, where the leaders serve the interests of those they shepherd?

I think the lesson here is not so much that there will be cuts, as the abruptness and depth of those cuts in the SBTS and extent of extravagance on the part of the Pattersons.

The contrast is sickening.

Anonymous said...

"I do know that it is human nature to set up a standard in our own mind against which others should live and run their businesses. This is a tricky thing because so much of this can be subjective."

Don't be silly. This is not like that at all. This is a church...er...seminary..it is not a secular business. It is NOT subjective. You own a bible, right? There are plenty of examples there. What did Paul do so as not to be a burden?

"hen one of the commenters asked Wade what he made annually, I thought of that."

For a lawyer, you do not see the illogic of that? Most commenting here probably pay Patterson's salary in some way. Unless you attend Wade's church, you don't. IOW: The trustees at SWBTS are responsible to US..in the SBC churches.

"ome think Patterson makes too much, some think Wade makes too much, some think Dr. Rankin makes too much, some think I make too much. Everyone thinks he makes just the right amount or that he deserves a little more. Isn't that what Rockefeller said 100 years ago?"

It is not about that, either. It is about what is going on in hard times. And the very unwise decisions made since he went there many having to do with spending money like drunken sailors on leave. Renovating the house to make it into 'Pecan Manor'.

". The perks mentioned may have very little impact on the overall budget of the seminary. I don't know."

Really? The renovations were free on 'Pecan Manor'? Who buys the food for all the soirees? Is his car free? A few thousand here and there do add up. No big deal. Does not affect the budget directly. Boy oh boy do I hear that a lot. Some folks even believe it.

". The SBC has approved trustees who are legally and ethically responsible to oversee the management of the seminary finances. I would be very surprised if there is not a lot of hard work going on right now by both seminary executive staff and various trustee committees to try and balance the budget. I know that this is going on at lots of churches nowadays. If you have ever been caught in a budget crunch or had a friend caught in a budget crunch, you may have a different perspective than those who are entrusted to operate and run the organization."

I am balancing a budget right now in a secular entity and NOTHING is off the table. EVen though many want to take a lot off the table. It is either do it now or do it later. So yes, I do have a 'perspective'.

"t the end of the day, we are going to have to let the trustees who are responsible for the seminary and the staff that they have hired run the seminary. We don't have any other system."

At the end of the day, the trustees are going to need our money.

". This does make me wonder what those in secular positions are going to do about the same issues. Our country is going through a terrible financial struggle. And yet, the plans for the inauguration are bigger and more expensive than ever. The Prez elect just got a brand new limo (shouldn't he just keep the old one?) yadda, yadda, yadda."

Yes, just like the expensive debacle in Chicago.

". We need to do everything that we can do to pray for all of the people who have any responsibility in leading a Christian organization these days. It is going to be a challenge in many ways."

They have already proven to be unwise with what they have allowed to go on. It is a seminary. It is a bit like the CEO's flying their jets to DC with tin cups in their hands. It is ridiculous.


Lydia

word verification: polls

Anonymous said...

Wanda,

I don't owe Wade anything. But when he is slinging accusations at a leader with no proof, that's called slander. As for the child care closing, I can read their website too. I figured that one was obvious. What you don't understand is that Ben and Wade have been out to get Patterson for years and will do whatever it takes to bring him down. They claim to have mountains of evidence, emails, transcripts, yada yada yawn and no one had yet to see any of it publicly. If he has proof of wrongdoing and/or fiscal mismanagment of CP funds, then let's see it and take appropriate action. If not then stop making accusations with no factual evidence and proof. Wanda, if you belong to a church and your chairman of deacons told you your Pastor was stealing money or using budget money for items he shouldn't, would you automatically believe the chairman or would you want some proof? I would hope you would want some proof before you started spreading slander and rumors. This is the same situation. No proof=no story. It's the same soap opera he's been spewing for years.

MIKE

Tim G said...

Benji,
Your comment hits on real issue - someone calls and then a post is written - where is the research and proof?

This type of post is why Blogging is such a mess. Anyone can claim anything, print it, and then people like the comment about Presidential Limos believe it!

As for the Limo, anyone who can read history realizes that for security reasons, limos etc. are updated regularly. There is nothing politcal or wrong about the new Limo! Just like the unsubstantiated stuff of this post presents heresay not fact!

Benji Ramsaur said...

Tim G,

I remember when controversy hit over at SBC Outpost concerning the anonymous professor who was critical of Al Mohler.

It seemed to me that the conclusion of the controversy was that nobody ended up "owning" the information on the post.

However, what Wade has put out has got Wade's name on it and so I think Wade is owning what he is putting out.

If what Wade has posted is "substantially" in error, then that definitely would not be good.

However, if Wade is only off a "penny" on some statement [for example], then I think his post still stands.

I think Wade is owning this and so if you are interested in trying to knock it down, then I think you are going to have to go beyond making general statements to refuting him in detail.

And sign your name to it.

God Bless,

Benji

Anonymous said...

As a mother, if I had not shopped at garage sales and thrift shops and gone to the library instead of my favorite book stores and gone for 'twofers' for matinee theaters in NYC, and chosen not to socialize with the big spenders in our community: my children would not have had the benefits I gave them: the best educations money could buy.

What is it with people that 'shepherd' those in their care without giving up their own comfort to look out for their charges?

Like a parent, P should have watched over his faculty, students, and employees. But he couldn't or he wouldn't.
If he couldn't, he shouldn't have been in charge. If he wouldn't, he is not who he claims to be:
a Christian. Very sad business.

Anonymous said...

TIM, that comment about the limo from Louis is just a warm-up sample of what Obama is in store for from the right wing.

And he's not even sworn in yet.

Where were people when torture became 'acceptable'?
Where were people when the financial oversight rules were discarded?
Where were people when an out-of-control administration allowed our finest young men to be sent into battle without the protection they needed?

If anything, Obama will see to it that no young American is sent into battle without the physical protection of an properly armored vehicle. What is it that the right wing considers important in this world?
Material possessions? Or people's lives ? Skewed values these last eight years have left many Americans with a poor set of priorities. P's materialistic priorities are a good example.

Steve said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Steve said...

It is wonderfully tangential, but if I am to believe this writer above to blame President Bush for Humvees being damaged by changed strategies followed by our enemies in war, then I suppose we must blame Harry Truman for frostbite cases in Korea and FDR for deaths in the Normandy landings as well as those pesky Nazi machine-gunners.

War is bad. That is why we avoid it whenever possible.

P.S.: Anyone looking to any upcoming Presidential administration for major changes in anything government does is severely underiformed in experience or education. Call us back in a few years.

Rex Ray said...

Tim G,
You said, “Anyone can claim anything, print it, …”

I’m included in that “Anyone” am I not?

Prove one thing I said about Patterson that is untrue, and I will apologize, but until you do, would you please get off Wade’s back and sink your spurs where they’re deserved?

Big Daddy Weave said...

Volfan,

You were wrong about the "DC lobby." For a history of Southern Baptist involvement in public affairs (biased but not bad), read Jerry Sutton's A Matter of Conviction. It was published in 2008. I believe Tim Rogers purchased a copy. He may have a glowing recommendation to give.

Lydia,

The Southern Baptist Convention did not have their own "DC Lobby" on Capitol Hill before the Conservative Resurgence. For decades, the DC-based Baptist Joint Committee represented Southern Baptists on religious liberty issues. It was not until after the "takeover" was complete and the SBC had defunded the BJC that Southern Baptists established a public affairs office in DC for religious lobbying purposes - now known as the Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission.

I don't know what your point was with that question. But this Baptist (though not a Southern Baptist) sees great value in having an office in DC to effectively deal with social issues. Every major Christian denomination is represented in DC.

WatchingHISstory said...

But I do know that the “vast majority of Southern Baptist hold Pelagian beliefs of some sort or another…” -Greg Alford's shot across the bow

..he's going to have fun with anon's return cannon fire! I predict a grand post on his blog! He has some good things already posted.

back to topic: The trouble at SWBTS was predicted by anti-mission societies 200 years ago. "Mission societies and schools are schemes of Arminianism, prompted by desire for money and fame."

Perhaps all that is going on in America currently is the 200 years longsuffering patience of God comming to an end. (God has ordained Obama) The Arminian captivity is about to end and it will not be a pretty picture.

Greg, and I am giving my reading, seems to suggest that it is not between Arminianism and Calvinism but Pelagianism. Anon suggest semi-pelagianism.

Is there hope for the SBC and America? I don't think so. Samuel is dead and we'll hear from Endor and it will be over. The king the people wanted will die in disgrace and a new King is comming.

My one comfort is that God does hold all the cards! God doesn't gamble! He deals the cards and determines the winners.

r. grannemann said...

Big Daddy and Lydia,

The problem I see with a denomination having a "DC Lobby" (or whatever you want to call it), is that social policy is governed too much by one's political leanings. Therefore it is divisive to a denomination.

Better to let religious public policy lobbies be independent of the denomination as para-church organizations. Let people who agree with their public policy positions support them, don't coerce a tax on everyone.

Let's have the courage to get spin off the Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission and let it raise its own support independently of the Cooperative Program.

Jon L. Estes said...

Louis,

You said "At the end of the day, we are going to have to let the trustees who are responsible for the seminary and the staff that they have hired run the seminary. We don't have any other system."

I think it would be safe to say that what you recommend is not the course of action Dr. Patterson took in the late 70's and beyond. Does Dr. Patterson and we who applauded the stand, removal, and public comments against the trustees need to apologize and reinstate?

I don't think so. If a trustee can not be trusted then we can't just look the other way.

volfan007 said...

Big Daddy,

You can call the Baptist Joint Committee something other than a lobby group if you want to, but that's what it was...in essence. And, SB's were the main supporters of that group.

True?


David

volfan007 said...

Jon,

The Trustees...for the most part... were not trusted by the CR people before the CR took place. Thus, they did what they had to do to change the situation. If people see a need to change them now, the way has been paved...you can lead your own resurgence to change the trustees.

David

Anonymous said...

R. GRANNEMANN wrote: "The problem I see with a denomination having a "DC Lobby" (or whatever you want to call it), is that social policy is governed too much by one's political leanings. Therefore it is divisive to a denomination."

Perhaps SOME denominations; not all. My own is deeply devoted to social justice and we do have a lobby that promotes social justice.
This devotion has not divided our Church INTERNALLY, but it does set us at odds, once again, with denominations that do not believe in social justice issues. L's


"NETWORK

Lobbying for Justice
Issues on NETWORK's agenda include:

• Just and fair treatment for
immigrants
• Affordable housing
• Healthcare for all
• Retirement security
• Food security
• Wage equity
• Peace in Iraq through economic
development
• Fair and just global trade
and economic development
• Fair and just taxation
• Investment in human needs domestically and globally

NETWORK's Founding
On December 17, 1971, 47 Catholic sisters from many orders and all over the country gathered for a weekend meeting in Washington, DC, to explore how women religious might speak out as one voice to our federal government on behalf of "justice for all."


NETWORK Staff in 1984.

Many of them had spent decades working with people in need. They had come to believe that providing for the immediate needs of people living in poverty is not enough, that faithfulness to the Gospel demands that we also work to change unjust systems that perpetuate economic inequity.

At their weekend meeting, these women religious decided to form a "network" of sisters to lobby for federal policies and legislation that promote economic and social justice. To get their organization off the ground, they passed a bag and collected $187. In April 1972, they opened a small office in Washington with a staff of two.

NETWORK is grateful for the continued involvement of hundreds of congregations of women religious and thousands of individual sisters, as well as that of parishes, small faith communities, dioceses and religious congregations of brothers and priests, and thousands of lay people. Their vigilance helps keep NETWORK faithful to its mission: lobbying, organizing and educating for justice and peace."


Hardly a Republican agenda, so most evangelical denominations would oppose all or most of NETWORK's goals, I imagine.
But I may be making an assumption here. If so, my apologies. L's

Anonymous said...

Hi REX RAY,

It's me, L's

I really loved your poem.
It says more than all the comments combined and it breaks one's heart to read it.

Your gift is writing, I think.
What a blessing. :) Love, L's

Jon L. Estes said...

volfan007, DAvid...

You missed my point. I did not call for change but responded directly to the words of Louis. The comment to trust the trustees and staff in place.

It was not done historically and I don't think if anyone disapproves, they should not take such a position Louis seemed to be taking.

Anonymous said...

Dear VOLFAN,

Just to clarify, are you the same as David Richarson or David Spriggs, or another David?

I am trying to account for the confusion yesterday.

Thanks, L's

r. grannemann said...

L's,

Can you tell me what your agenda for "fair and just taxation," is? As soon as you do you will have an endless debate. I don't think it's a denomination's job to define that for me.

Anonymous said...

"Trust the trustees."

Who appointed the trustees?
Who are the trustees?
Do they submit detailed reports to the Baptist people?
Are their financial records examined by independent accounting firms or any independent agency?
Are the records available?
What are the salaries of the trustees?
Who authorized those salaries?
Who had or has the authority to change those salaries.
In short who are the trustees influenced by and who do they answer to?

"Trust the trustees"

Old Russian Proverb:
" Trust, but verify."

A little vigilance can prevent a lot of corruption.

Rex Ray said...

John Estes,
I believe you’re on the right track when you pointed out the possibility that the trustees of SWBTS may not be capable of being trusted and we “can’t just look the other way”.

The situation of the relationship between Patterson and the trustees started a long time ago. When Dilday was the President of SWBTS and the attendance was around 5,000, Patterson told Dilday that he was conservative all right but he was not “one of us”.

Patterson set out to get Dilday fired by his bunch replacing trustees with “one of us” regardless of their qualifications. One fundamentalists in particular prefaced his statements with “Thank God, I never attended a seminary.” He kept doing it because it brought a lot of “amens”.

All five seminaries complained about the quality of replacement trustees. It was like, ‘Yesterday, I couldn’t spell trustee but today I are one.’

Remember the trustee giving the reason they hired a woman to teach Hebrew before Patterson came? They had a temporary lapse of judgment or something like that. (Anyone remember the exact words?)

So at SWBTS the situation is sort of like ‘I scratched your back and now you scratch mine’, or the question arises ‘Who is working for whom?’

Anonymous said...

Mr. GRANNEMANN,

Ask the nuns over at the NETWORK headquarters. They can tell you directly what their definition is.

I can only guess that the nuns want some fairness that they believe does not presently exist.

Has the tax system been 'fair' to ALL our citizens? Yes or No
It depends on who is asking, what they stand to gain or lose.

But it also depends on where people are coming from as to how they see the question.

A Republican philosophy of 'trickle-down' economics might not be acceptable to a group of nuns who noticed that the 'trickle' was being sent overseas, as jobs and benefits left our country.

I can imagine that tax breaks would be supported by the nuns IF a company was not sending jobs elsewhere. That is just one possiblity.

You can ask. My 'imagining' is not an answer for you. Just some thoughts.

Have you ever served in poor communities? If so, I CAN share that you will never see economics the same way again: the reality check is so stark that it changes your point of view forever, particularly if you have Christian values. L's

P.S. Sir, perhaps an economic 'dialogue' among Christian peoples of all denominations is what is needed.
Debates are important.
Dialogues are much more difficult and much more productive.

And you can include the Jewish Community in that dialogue: they are way ahead of many Christians on the issues of social justice, so we can learn from them.

And, then there are the words and actions of Jesus Christ: do we have a responsibility as Christians to care for people in need or not? If we do, should our policies in a Judeo-Christian country reflect our values?
Think about dialogue, sir.
Then everyone wins. L's

Anonymous said...

"Anon suggest semi-pelagianism."

Since when is anything less than 'tulip' considered semi-Pelagian?

Extremists like labels.

Anonymous said...

All right, all right!

This post proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that Patterson and the Trustees at SWBTS are not managing the current budget crisis correctly.

NOT.

The point of my earlier comment, which most of you missed, is that despite some of the contents of this post that making judgments about the budget management of an organization as large as SWBTS (does anyone know what the annual budget is? 40 Million? That's a pure guess), takes a lot more info than we have.

At least I would need more info before making any kind of a judgment. Others may feel free to judge the situation based solely on the post. I am not comfortable doing so.

That was the point of my comment.

My poking at the new limo for Obama was not anti-Obama. I am sure those who are sophisticated understood that.

The Prez needs the best limo that can be bought, and I don't care if that has to be bought in the middle of a terrible economic downturn. I still want the Prez in the best limo. And I want the Prez (yes, Obama, too) to wine and dine foreign leaders. I want him to go on trips. And I don't care about where he vacations. He has the toughest job in the world, and none of those expenses are going to make a significant dent in the federal budget. It would not make me feel any better about my country if Obama refused the new limo, fired all but a skeletal staff at the White House, and at only hamburgers and Pizzas for the next 4 years. That would be meaningless symbolism. And it would probably hurt his ability to execute his responsibilities.

(Note: I am going to ignore the invitation to enter the fever swamp discussions of torture, right wing people, Irag etc. I am going to stick to the topic at hand).

Those kind of demands and expectations are silly, but they play well in some quarters. They don't play well with me.

I feel the same way about the auto execs. I am not for the auto bailout. I believe that Chapter 11 is a good route, and that is what Chapter 11 is for.

But I did not get worked up that the auto execs flew to D.C. in privates jets. That is a meaningless detail in the grand scope. Again, for them to drive to D.C. is meaningless symbolism.

The point is that any time there is a financially related story, we all tend to view it from our own perspectives which may be judgmental and legalistic and not really based in any experience or particular knowledge.

The comments to this post, and the heat with which they are delivered (without any real financial analysis) proves that point in spades.

SWBTS is a large non-profit. I have served on 2non-profit boards, one of which had much more in assets than SWBTS, but very little in expenses because it was investment related.

I have never managed a non-profit as large as SWBTS. Furthermore, I don't know the specifics of SWBTS and its budget to make comments. All I know about this is what is in Wade's post.

And that does not give me enough info to make a judgment. Others can make all the judgments they want, and may feel that those judgments are fully informed.

I just don't care to play along.

John Estes and Benji: the comments about the trustee governance are self-evident. But they bring the issue home. If anyone really thinks that he can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that SWBTS has been mismanaged financially, that charge should be made at the convention, with adequate proof as a back up. A real audit might help? That is usually the standard for determining financial mismanagement. Not a conglomerate of factoids.

But for now, I don't have that kind of judgment or certainty.

Those of you that feel that confident - great. I'll be interested to hear your motion in Louisville.

Thanks.

Louis

Tom Parker said...

Rex Ray:

IMO the really sad part is that PP is a polarizing figure. He considers himself an architect of the CR. He helped removed the "Liberals" and put all of his like minded people in positions of power and so they control the SBC and shut everyone else out. It is about power and control.
He and others have for all practical purposes made it a men's club as far as positions of authority in the SBC.

It will forever be a disgrace what happened to Dr. Klouda.

He does whatever he wants to because who would dare call him on anything.

I hope I am wrong, but the situation in the SBC will only get worse.

It was said in this blog to Jon Estes-"you can lead your own resurgence to change the trustees."
No one is allowed to question anything without getting that type of response from some.

I see no way that there could be any time of resurgence without there being a split in the denomination.

I've asked many times and I will ask it again--Are we really better of in the SBC because of the CR?

Jon L. Estes said...

Louis,

My apologies for misunderstanding you. That was not my intent.

Thanks for your post.

Tom Parker said...

Louis:

It would be nice if SWBTS would provide some of the information to the public so we as Southern Baptists would have a greater understanding of the accountability or lack of accounatability. It appears it is not willing to share this information.

r. grannemann said...

L's,

I'm sure your network is full of very caring people. I'm sure the spirit of God is at work.

My point is not that these issues should not concern Christian people. It is rather that public policy should not be articulated by a "denomination." I think it is perfectly fine to articulate public policy positions within "para-church" groups (because support for these organizations is voluntary).

I confess I don't understand the Roman Catholic "organization" that well. Catholics have many groups that are only quasi related to the Church. I don't believe your network's positions are the official position of the Church. I'm not sure if it gets funds directly from a parish. Maybe it would fall under what I call para-church organizations.

Wade Burleson said...

To Tim Rogers, Volfann, et all . . .

Gentlemen, it seems you are missing the point of the post - again. I am not arguing against Patterson's salary, perks or extravagant lifestyle. I am arguing that you absolutely kill morale when you cut benefits, retirement, salaries, etc . . . of employees including professors and staff while continuing to maintain an extravagant lifestyle as President.

I am saying the President in down times should cut HIS staff, cut HIS salary, cut HIS perks BEFORE anybody else is cut.

That is how leaders lead.

In His Grace,

Wade

P.S. And, I will never reveal the employees and/or professors who have contacted me for reasons that anyone can see, even on a kloudy day.

:)

From sunny Miami,

Wade

Anonymous said...

Mr. GRANNEMANN,

My 'denomination' has many in it that do not agree politically with each other. That 'Network' group was organized by professional religious (the nuns) on their own.
In my religion, we are told to follow our consciences as individuals. But it is a part of our faith to serve the poor in His Name, actively, with all of our strength.

Those nuns saw a need as they worked in poor communities. They asked what could they do. What could be done to help in the real world? Knowing that His Kingdom is not of this world and knowing that the suffering of others is real in this world, I think the nuns did what they could, in conscience, and in reality.

You are right. No denomination should impose its beliefs on our nation. That's a given.
Our Judeo-Christian values are shared by most of our citizens.
A lobby that works to cast light on the darkness and to activate those Judeo-Christian values is not without some merit.

If I know nuns, as a group, and I know many of them. They are tireless, selfless, and caring about the plight of the poor. Like it or not, the active work of the NETWORK nuns springs from a well of love for the unfortunate among us. At least these nuns are not self-seeking. Yes, their motives are the best, and if people disagree with their goals, the nuns would be the first to listen respectfully and to dialogue.
They are like that.
It's called humility. L's

Rex Ray said...

Hi L’s,
Thanks.
I wish I could write with your heart.

Anonymous said...

Dear REX RAY,

What a nice thing to say.
I want you to know you have more heart than I could ever have, and your love for Christ shines like a diamond. Keep writing. HE gave you that gift to use for His people. You are truly blessed.
Love, L's

Benji Ramsaur said...

Louis,

You are the one who said "We don't have any other system" as if someone on this comment stream is advocating a different system.

Proof?

Now let us cut to the chase about Wade.

A biblical standard of substantiating something would be two or three witnesses.

A journalistic standard, unless I am mistaken, would be for a journalist to sometimes use anonymous sources. Hence, the journalist will put their own name on the line when they report something using anonymous sources.

One might say "We should use a biblical standard and not the journalistic one".

Well, my question then is:

Do you ever put any credence in what a journalist says using anonymous sources when you watch FOX/ABC/NBC/CNN/etc?

Whether we like it or not, there are going to be people, I would think, who believe Wade because they trust him.

Whether we like it or not, there might be people who have their doubts about SWBTS through what Wade has written.

Whether we like it or not, there is the number "3,359,719 Visitors" at the bottom of Wade's blog.

If Wade is putting out false information concerning SWBTS, then why shouldn't Tim G [or anyone else] put out the facts for all cooperative program giving people to see.

If this does not happen, then I think it will not look good in the eyes of many.

If truth and SB pleasing leadership is on the side of SWBTS, then what is there to hide?

In fact, as much as I like Wade and do not believe he would intentionally mislead anyone concerning these things, I hope that SWBTS will be vindicated if Wade has made public serious faulty information concerning the institution that B.H. Carroll founded--and would not be allowed to be the president of today if strict subscriptionist standards were enforced.

God Bless,

Benji

Wade Burleson said...

Benji,

Well said.

After speaking with multiple professors and employees, the only fact that might be incorrect in my post is the average retirement cut. Instead of $8,400 yearly, it is closer to $6,000 yearly.

In addition, it is true that there are MORE students taking courses at SWBTS, but each of these students are taking LESS hours. The CP funding for seminaries is based upon a minimum number of hours that students take, so from the CP formula there are significantly FEWER students, and thus, significantly LESS money being forwarded to SWBTS.

I learned a long, long time ago that you don't put anything on the internet that you cannot substantiate. Tim, Volfann, Peter, and the Baptist Identity crowd always want names, names, and more names.

I have given them all the names in the book coming out. I am withholding names here for the protection of the employees/professors of SWBTS

Anonymous said...

John Estes:

No problem. I figured that. I still remember your good comments about Charlie Parker (that was you, wasn't it?). I think that's all I need to know. I have never seen anything but a well intentioned comment from you.

Tom Parker:

Don't get me started on disclosure. I am a huge stickler for that.

Non-profit orgs (including churches) should be completely open and transparent with their members. The larger ones, like United Way, the Red Cross etc. are more like public entities. I think to the extent they ask for money from the general public, their finances should be open.

I have been the strongest proponent in our church of having open books for the members. All books and transactions are available for inspection by members upon appointment at the office.

I do see the concern of the public discussion of certain budget items. There are always going to be people who are too harsh and too judgmental about what people make and other expenditures. And they are usually people who have never hired and fired people or managed a budget. There should be appropriate time, place and manner restrictions so that there is not an undeserved tidal wave of second guessing. But other than that one procedural qualification, we should be in favor of disclosure.

I know of a woman here in town who works for the state comptroller, division of municipal audit. She audits local governments, and has the experience of uncovering slush funds, expenditures and such.

She recently left her local baptist church. She was put on the finance committee and learned they had a rule that church members could not see all of the books. She could not endure that policy. She eventually moved to another church.

The church deals with OPM (Other people's money) and should be totally accountable to the people that fund the organization.

I am really glad that you agree with this.

I don't know in Baptist life what the rule or practice has been in the institutions. My guess is that there is a general culture in the SBC that is followed by most of the insitutions, but I don't even know that.

My advice (subject to reasonable time, place and manner regulations) is that all of this should be available.

If we have an uneducated base that will not appreciate the sophistication of running an agency and why someone might be entitled to be paid what they are being paid or why a certain amount of money is spent on a certain item, then our job is to educate our base, and not use that as an excuse to stonewall disclosure.

I am not saying that has occurred here. I am just saying that I don't have the info to make any hard and fast judgments, and I recongize that everyone will have an opinion about every line item. And it can be very unproductive to get into that type discussion.

Thanks.

Louis

Tom Parker said...

Louis:

You said--"Tom Parker:

Don't get me started on disclosure. I am a huge stickler for that."

What I do not understand is that it appears the problem of disclosure has not been addressed in the SBC for years and years.

I often wonder what it will take for someone in the SBC to give this serious consideration without something forcing them to.

Tom Parker said...

Wade:


I often wonder if names, names, and more names were given what the people who want names, names, and more names, would do with them. I don't have a good feeling about what would happen.

What a shame it has come to be that way in the SBC.

Big Daddy Weave said...

The BJC is a religious lobby - in fact it's the only religious lobby in DC that focuses on just religious liberty issues. They don't take positions on other issues.

But the BJC was not YOUR religious lobby. The BJC represented at the time 9 (maybe 10) other Baptist groups with their work.

Paul Pressler would agree with the distinction that I'm making here. That's why he insisted that the Southern Baptist Convention have their own presence on Capitol Hill through a group that represented ONLY the interests of Southern Baptists. I think that's why Lydia was asking.

Anonymous said...

Big Daddy Weave:

Good summary. The BJCPA represented a bunch of different baptist bodies, but as I recall the SBC paid most of the bills.

That arrangement is usually a harbinger of dischord. That was part of the problem with the BWA and the discontent in the political world with the UN.

One person has already remarked that it is tough for a religious denomination to address political issues and not risk having problems in the denomination because of differing feelings about various issues.

Being in a group with other organizations just magnifies that even more, especially if one group pays most of the bill.

Tom Parker:

I don't want to sound like I know too much about what is subject to disclosure in the SBC and what is not, but I am in complete agreement with disclosure. There is not in my opinion one salary, perk or expenditure that should not be subject to disclosure.

We have to avoid the pettiness that will come once that occurs, but the culuture should be one of openness. It apparently has not been that way for many decades.

Louis

Anonymous said...

Why Oh Why do the Baptist Identity Crowd not display or show the Love of Jesus in anything they write on these blogs. The Name Above All Names is Jesus Christ
Wade said : I learned a long, long time ago that you don't put anything on the internet that you cannot substantiate. Tim, Volfann, Peter, and the Baptist Identity crowd always want names, names, and more names.

http://www.sbcimpact.net/2009/01/06/my-pilgrimage/#comments

Anonymous said...

"We have to avoid the pettiness that will come once that occurs, but the culuture should be one of openness. It apparently has not been that way for many decades."

Here we go again. Louis, you always manage to insult the uneducated peasants. :o)

But in the end, you are using worldly arguments comparing our seminiaries to other entities in the secular world. We are to be different. You seem to be conflicted about being in the world or of it when it comes to these things.

Did you not read Jerry Grace's comment earlier? There is a reason they are not transparent. They KNOW the uneducated peasants giving their mites would have a problem how and for what they spend money.

But, of course, you will just tell me I 'missed' your point.

BTW: at the next board meeting of the non profit I serve on, I am making a motion to put our budget online every year. We'll see.

My cousin serves on a city council and is right now gathering support to put that budget online, too.

Accountability.

Lydia

Anonymous said...

Lydia wrote: "They KNOW the uneducated peasants giving their mites would have a problem how and for what they spend money."

Bravo! Stetsons, cowboy boots, maids, chefs, foreign travel?
For this I paid?

"FOWL," I cry.

UNEDUCATED PHEASANT

Anonymous said...

came across this very telling, prophetic comment from 2007:


"Tuesday, October 23, 2007
Paige Patterson Portrait at Southwestern Seminary
SBC Outpost has an interesting piece about the new portrait of Paige Patterson, president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary (sbcoutpost.com). The cost was NOT REVEALED , although the Outpost reports that a portrait by the same artist set Southeastern Seminary back almost $70,000.

I don't know if Cooperative Program dollars paid for this portrait or not, but does it not seem rather excessive?
It is becoming increasingly troubling how some of the presidents of Southern Baptist seminaries are building their own kingdoms on these campuses (and beyond) and how this is helping detach them from reality.
If Paige Patterson and the trustees of Southwestern think it's perfectly fine to spend such an exorbitant amount of money on a portrait they are in serious need of a reality check.

When I was a student at Southern Seminary I lived on a diet of rice and Ramen noodles for three years (like many of my fellow students). A trip to Burger King was a tremendous luxury. Many - perhaps most - of the students in SBC seminaries are living near or below poverty conditions while the presidents are enjoying increasingly opulent lifestyles. Do these men stop and think about this? Do they ever consider how this looks to students and even to seminary outsiders? It's about time they do consider it."

Posted by David Charlton in 2007


COMMENT: 'they are seriously in need of a reality check'
Well, it's going to take the full force and might of the SBC to throw these bums out. The odds of that happening are slim and none.
SBC's like their status quo the way it is.

Kate Johnson said...

Ok, so does anyone know the official name and location of the seminary? I went to look them up on Guidestar (where you can look up the 990's for non-profits and schools along with salaries) because I am one of those that believes in transperancy. I do not give to any charity or organization without checking them out first. (guidestar.org) It has been very enlightening. One ministry that we used to give to is not even a recognized 501c3, although they say they are. We have stopped giving them money. If you look up our ministry, it is there (although we make so little money right now that we file a 990n, for under 25,000. But you can still find us there.

As for SWBTS, there are two, one listed in Las Vegas and one in Ft. Worth. No surprise, the one in Ft. Worth in incorproated as a church, therefore they do not file a 990 and their books are not open. I looked at my alma mater and it is there for all to see. I am a firm believer that all should be open and I believe the IRS SHOULD require churches to file. Not that they have input per se, but so that as a non-profit that asks for OPM, they should be open. Besides, seminaries are not churches, they are learning institutions!

G said...

Kate,

So should SWBTS (the Fort Worth one) have deacons rather than Trustees? So, I guess that makes PP the Pastor.

Who would be the congreation? Hmmm.

A puzzlement. A puzzlement.

;-)

Gary Skaggs
Norman

Anonymous said...

Again, there is no proof. Wade saying Patterson has "an extravagant lifestyle" is not proof of anything. I could say Wade has an extravagant lifestyle by flying to Miami to watch Oklahome get swallowed up by the Gators but that doesn't prove anything. He didn't trust the IMB trustees, now it's the SWBTS trustees, who's next? Is there anyone in the SBC we can trust beside Wade? Maybe he could donate the proceeds from his book to those students in need at our SB seminaries.

MIKE

Anonymous said...

Do you REALLY think Wade would steal from his Church to go a-travelin' to Florida to watch football?

Maybe Wade made the money doing his night job: playing with his band.

Yeah, people trust Wade.
He has shown compassion for missionaries where no one else had the courage to do it. It cost him but he did it anyway.
Yeah, people trust his integrity.

As for his book, he has children to provide for and to educate. The whole idea behind the book is to tell the story of what happened to a Church, when people followed people instead of the Lord.

After what he has been through, it is a wonder that he has kept the faith and not turned into a cynic.

Mike, you know why people don't trust the 'other guys', don't you?
Of course you do.
As for Patterson, the bookkeeping may be kept hidden, but he has flaunted his 'perks' and now continues a pattern of creating havoc in the lives of people at his mercy, and all the time, wearing fancy cowboy boots, wearing a fancy 'black' Stetson, and living in a 'manor house' complete with chefs and servants.
My, my, you have to wonder why people are cynical about this guy.
Oh, how terribly unfair of them.

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