"I went to Jerusalem to become acquainted (Gk. istoria) with Cephas" - Paul's words from Galatians 1:18.

Frenemies of the Faith and Misogynistic Ministers

Women and the Christian Church
Christian social media entered a firestorm last weekend over two words uttered by John MacArthur about Christian teacher/preacher Beth Moore. At a conference this past week at Grace Community Church, the 80-year-old MacArthur said Beth Moore ought to quit teaching the Word of God in churches and other venues and "Go home."

MacArthur believes that Beth Moore or any other Christian woman who teaches God's Word to others should go home and be the wife, mother, and person God intends for them to be and leave it to the men to give spiritual direction. MacArthur believes Christian men are to be the leaders and Christian women are to be the receivers.

To MacArthur and other male misogynistic ministers, qualification for Christian ministry revolves around one's sexual genitalia rather than one's spiritual giftings.

Some might object that my language is too harsh. However, it's high time for people who believe in the infallible and inspired Scriptures to speak out in defense of our Christian sisters and what the Bible says about their freedom to teach, preach, and lead. Christian male leaders who regularly debilitate, denigrate, and dismiss Christian women doing Kingdom work should be confronted.

The viper known as 'the doctrine of male authority' has bitten the  Christian church. The toxin emitted by this errant teaching affects the females within our Christian assemblies. Ministers within infected churches will do three things:
1. They will debilitate females with God-given gifts,
2. They will denigrate females in their Spirit-led ministries,
3. They will downplay females as New Covenant priests. 
Some evangelical conservative churches have misconstrued and misinterpreted Paul's writings on this subject while at the same time ignoring Jesus' words and life example on the same subject. Misogyny is a real problem in American conservative evangelicalism. 

Misogyny is defined as "a hatred of, contempt for, or prejudice against women or girls, manifesting in social exclusion, patriarchy, male privilege, or belittling of the female sex." 

The evangelical Christian church is filled with pastors who say publicly that they love women but are actually filled with misogyny toward Christian women.  They're "friends" to Christian females with their words, but they are "enemies" to Christian females by their actions.

Frenemies.

The scary part is that these frenemies of the faith actually believe that God is on their side when they say "Go home" to Christian women who are preaching the Gospel to others.

I'm a conservative evangelical who believes the Bible and also believes it's past time to call out fellow conservatives whose misinterpretations of a couple of specific passages in the Bible leads them to misogyny.

Religion News Service reports that MacArthur said at his conference:
“When you literally overturn the teaching of Scripture to empower people who want power, you have given up biblical authority. I just know women are not allowed to preach.”
A misogynistic Christian website that reported on the conference, praised Mr. MacArthur with these words:
"Beth Moore is a feminist who is in grave rebellion against God. She travels the country preaching to mixed audiences when the Scriptures are clear, women can’t preachIn classic John MacArthur fashion, MacArthur pulls no punches and tells her to “go home.”
But John MacArthur and other frenemies of the faith need to be corrected about their wrong presuppositions regarding women and preaching.


The Scriptures and Our Savior Both Command Women to Preach


The word "preach" means "to proclaim." It is the Greek word kerusso ("I preach") and originates from ancient farmers noticing the sound roosters made at the rising of the sun. The roosters crowed (kerusso). 

Kerusso is to crow about the risen Son.

Not only are women allowed to proclaim that the Son has risen, they are commanded by Christ to proclaim to others all that the risen Son has taught. Jesus said,
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you." (Matthew 28:19-20)
Women are to teach others about Christ. Women are to make disciples of Christ. Women are to baptize those they reach with the Good News of Jesus Christ.

The Great Commission is for men and women.

When I served on the International Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention from 2005-2008, I got into a heated dispute with mysogynistic male ministers who served with me on the board.

It seems that we had Christian women missionaries in the Far East who were leading men and women to faith in Jesus Christ and the new Christian converts were ready to be baptized.  It was made known to the IMB trustees that there was nobody to baptize the recent Chinese converts.

Not knowing any better, I raised my hand and asked a question of my fellow trustees:
"Why don't the Christian women missionaries who taught these new converts about Jesus and led them to faith in the Him be the ones to baptize them to fulfill the command of Jesus in the Great Commission."
Crickets.

Without responding to my question, the chairman of the subgroup determined we would pay $3,000 to fly a male Baptist pastor to a foreign country to baptize the men and women that had been led to faith in Jesus Christ by our female missionaries on the field.

My courteous but firm opposition to the IMB's unbiblical patriarchal policies led to a protracted battle between the world's largest missionary sending organization and its trustee from Oklahoma.

I learned fifteen years ago that if a man says, "the Bible forbids a woman from preaching," more than likely that man has never been humbled to see that his interpretation of the Bible is not on par with the inspiration of the Bible.

The New Testament Evidence that Women Are Free to Proclaim Christ (Preach)


In all four of the Gospel accounts, the risen Jesus Christ first appears women first, and commissions them to "go and proclaim to others" of Christ’s victory over death. See Matthew 28:5-7; Mark 16:6-7; Luke 24:1-10; John 20:10-18.

Peter uses the prophecy of Joel 2:28-32 to establish the preaching agenda for the new community of Christ called the Church. The heart of Peter's message is twice repeated in his affirmation of men and women proclaiming the Good News:
 “In the last days, God says, I will pour out My spirit on ALL people and your sons and daughters will prophesy… Even on My servants, both men and women, I will pour out My Spirit in those days—and they will prophesy” (Acts 2:17-18).
Philip, one of the early followers of Jesus, had four Christian daughters "who all prophesied" (Acts 21:9).

Throughout the New Testament there is an equality of genders when it comes to proclaiming the risen Christ. Revelation 19:10 says: “For it is the Spirit of prophecy that gives testimony to Jesus”

Preaching Jesus is determined by the gift of the Spirit not the gender of the speaker. 
In the New Testament church, there is to be a mutuality of service (diachonia) pervading the body of Christ.
As each has received a gift, employ [diachonoutes] it for another, as good stewards of God’s varied grace” (1 Peter 4:10).
Romans 16 is a key chapter on women’s roles in the New Testament Church. Paul sends greetings to the leaders and key teachers of the “house churches” of Rome. In this list, Christian women are both preeminent and prominent in the proclamation of the truth of Jesus Christ.

The first mentioned is Phoebe (Romans 16:1-2). She is a “servant” of the church in Cenchrea, the term Paul uses to describe himself in Ephesians 3:7 and Colossians 1:23, 25, as well as the word Paul uses to describe his fellow ministers of the Word in Ephesians 6:21; Colossians 1:7; 4:7). In addition, verse 2 describes her as a “helper” (NASB) or “benefactor”(TNIV). The Greek word prostates, from which helper or benefactor is translated, means “one who stands before, front-rank man, leader, chief, protector, champion.”

This not only affirms Phoebes' ministry role, but her leadership of men as well.

In Romans 16:3 Paul greets a wife/husband team, giving preeminence to Priscilla, then affirms they are both “my fellow workers,” a term Paul especially applies to "those who share in teaching the Gospel." This role of Priscilla "teaching the Gospel" to men is confirmed by Acts 18:26 where both Priscilla and Aquila teach Apollos, an evangelist, the clear and full message of the Gospel. In 1 Corinthians 16:19 Paul again mentions this couple as the leaders of a “church in their house.”

Priscilla is functioning as a teacher and leader within a “church” community.

In Romans 16:7 Paul speaks of Andronicus (male) and Junia (female) “who are outstanding among the apostles.” In this instance, a woman, Junia, seems in the role of an apostle (see Ephesians 4:11-12). Apostles specifically had the task of the equipping (teaching) in the church. See also Romans 16:12, which identifies two other female workers in the church as “workers in the Lord,” a phrase that usually applies to those who "teach the Gospel."

In Philippians 4:2-3 Paul affirms Euodia and Syntyche as two women who had “contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers.” The whole context puts them on a par with others who labor in sharing the Gospel. See also Colossians 4:15.

In I Corinthians 11:2-16, the Bible presupposes Christian women to be leading corporate worship services through both prayer and prophesying. 

Summary: The overwhelming teaching of the New Testament is that men and women are to teach, preach, lead, and serve as the Spirit gifts us, independent of our specific gender.
"There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28).


Two Passages That Seem to Teach Christian Women Are To Be Silent



There are only two passages that might, at first glance, seem to teach that a woman is "to be silent" around men; or, as John MacArthur would say, "Go home."

If these two passages are truly teaching a woman is to be silent and not teach or preach, then they would be contradicting all the other passages of the New Testament that teach just the opposite (see above). I believe that it is the faulty interpretations of these two passages by ministers that leads to pastors saying to women "Go home." Their misinterpretations of the Word leads them to misogyny of the women.

Rather than delve into the two passages now, I'd like to give you a couple of relevant links for each passage to show you what they teach in the context of the day in which they were written. When properly interpreted, the principles contained in these two passages are consistent with the rest of Scriptural teachings on the New Testament equality of men and women.

I Timothy 2:9-15 -  see Artemis and the End of Us: Evangelical Errors Regarding Women.

I Corinthians 14:34-35 - see Giftedness vs. Gender.

My friend, Dr. Todd Still, Dean and Professor at Baylor University and Truett Seminary, not to mention one of the great New Testament scholars of our day, has also spoken out against MacArthur's remark toward Beth Moore.

Dr. Still writes:
"George W. Truett Theological Seminary will host a National Preaching Conference at the historic First Baptist Church of Waco. In addition to the likes of Alistair Begg, Tony Evans, Joel Gregory, Jimmy Mellado, and Ralph West, Mary Hulst and yes, Beth Moore will be preaching. Then and there, Beth will be warmly welcomed into our hearts and home as we listen to her expound upon God’s Word. John MacArthur is also welcome, but he will need to remain silent."
Touché

More to come...

56 comments:

Anonymous said...

Bless you. Our former pastor said twice during a message: "Women are subservient," whereupon I raced out of the auditorium on the stroke of the final amen. As soon as I hit the exit doors, I was in tears, and by the time I got to the car, I was a mess. As we entered Red Lobster, I probably had no make-up left on my red face! ha When my husband, 30+ years the pastor's senior, graciously, kindly, and in good humor approached the pastor the following Sunday, the pastor had a stone face, and said, "That's what it says." End of discussion. We now have a women's Bible study group (excellent), a women's S.S. class, also good, but no women in any kind of leadership role where there are men present, no female deacons, no female elders, unless you count the women who tell some of the men where to set up tables and chairs for a special lunch, etc. And the roof would cave in if anybody ever suggested even the remote possibility of a female preacher, probably not even a female missionary who simply came to "share" or "report" to the congregation. Sometimes it boggles my mind. Preach it, bro.

Wade Burleson said...

Anonymous,

I shall continue to proclaim this truth because it’s Scriptural. I don’t mind others disagreeing (at all), but I will no longer be silent as those who disagree with me act as if they believe the Bible and those who disagree with them don’t.


Ken F said...

From the post:
"In all four of the Gospel accounts, the risen Jesus Christ first appears women first, and commissions them to "go and proclaim to others" of Christ’s victory over death. See Matthew 28:5-7; Mark 16:6-7; Luke 24:1-10; John 20:10-18."

Well, he said in John 14:12 that believers will do greater things than he did. So, suppressing women is obviously one of those greater things...





I should probably not use sarcasm like this because it will just give them ideas...

Wade Burleson said...

Ken,

:)

Julie Chase said...

Baphoons if after Jesus rose from the dead and after he spoke Matt. 28 verses 19 20 If he saw his mom Mary baptizing someone should he scold her? I know he would not. Julie Chase

Debbie Kaufman said...

Love this post. Thank you....again.

RB Kuter said...

"To MacArthur and other male misogynistic ministers, qualification for Christian ministry revolves around one's sexual genitalia rather than one's spiritual giftings."

I believe the concern about women's role in ministry is complex and perhaps involving some aspects that neither you or MacArthur address. The two of you represent 2 different poles regarding the issue of complementarianism. As always, my perspective that follows could be off-target and if it is, feel free to correct me.

I view your position as being that women should be supported in filling any role in ministry, and perhaps in the family and or secular society, which she feels led to pursue without regard to gender identity. MacArthur seems to take the opposite position saying that women should be limited to functioning in these roles according to parameters established by historical male traditions.

I don't agree with either of your approaches, but I do believe you hit a nerve that has been exposed more than ever in the past several years and which should be considered when deciding how to respond to one another. There is a general movement in carnal society to diminish the created order of gender distinctiveness. We see it all around us. Certainly, the push for normalizing the homosexual and other licentious lifestyles promote the rejection of the natural distinctiveness of gender. The goal of this segment of society is to undermine the most basic elements of God's created order.

It is evident that the primary support element in this movement is much more broad in scope and much deeper in its roots than simply being the corrupt "politically correct" world society of today. The roots go all the way to hell itself. This current trend toward undermining gender distinctiveness is a strategy being driven by Satan.

MacArthur makes remarks void of sensitivity toward those in opposition and Wade counters with equal fervor for his position, both with sincere and well-intended purpose. Rather than advancing their cause for either, this sort of strife and conflict within the church adds to the credibility of those calling for the elimination of all gender identification. We are, unwittingly for sure, playing into the hands of the main director behind the curtain at the expense of what should be the civil functioning of the church in accordance with the preference of each autonomous congregation.

Anonymous said...

Blog post reminds me of Dalton Thomas speaking and hitting on how us in the West have the luxury of pontificating over such issues while the church in Iran, Syria, and Saudi Arabia they don’t.
Video section 8:05 - 12:28
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yWbp6OGaXaM&t=494s

Here is also the link of Dalton Thomas of FAI ministry dropping documentary of the church movement in Iran being led by women. An hour and 43 minutes in length.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9SAPOLKF59U&t=608s

Joe Misek said...

The mission board spent $3k to... let's boil this down... fly a Y chromosome overseas to perform baptisms on new converts who were led to Jesus by women missionaries?!?!

I've heard it all now.

Anonymous said...

RB Kutur,

Basically, this response reflects an attitude that our gender order is higher than being “in Christ” or one’s giftedness. I really do not see where your position is much different than that of MacArthur.

In some men’s eyes, women can never be in pastoral leadership or ministry because of their gender, which definitely (in my interpretation) is not reflected in the full scope of the Word of God.

Your position has everything to do with sexuality (sex act or sexual partners) not the gender of man and woman being made in God’s image.

My choice as a woman or man to hear and obey the will of God in my life through the power and anointing of the Holy Spirit is a total separate issue from one’s choice of sexual partners or “broken” identity, etc.

Rex Ray said...

Wade,

Under the guidelines of the Baptist Faith and Message 2000 (BF&M 2000), John MacArthur was correct in telling Beth Moore to go home because she wasn’t fulfilling her responsibilities.

[Beth Moore] “has the God-given responsibility to respect her husband and to serve as his helper in managing the household and nurturing the next generation.”

Wade, according to some men’s thinking, women are to stay home.

Also the BF&M 2000 states women: cannot be pastors because, “…the office of pastor is limited to men…”

There’s nothing like that in the BF&M 1963.

Paige Patterson and his 15 friends are responsible for the BF&M 2000. “Nuff said”.

Christiane said...

I was a teenaged ward clerk in a Catholic hospital during university and I worked on Saturdays and Sundays, full time. One morning, a nurse came to me and pointed to the adjoining room where a bedpan sat next to a sink, and she told me that a mother had miscarried during the night but I was permitted to see the dead fetus that lay in the bedpan. I remember being overwhelmed with compassion for this small, very tiny, perfectly-formed being who would never live in this world, and without thinking, I took a little bit of water and poured it over the head of this miscarried human person and said the words,
'I baptize you in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit'.

I have never felt more at peace in my life than at that moment.
I knew that the child was already with God. So I have no answer for my action other than it seemed the right thing for me to do at that moment. Maybe our reaching out to offer help in any way we know is somehow blessed? What is the worth of a single act of kindness in this world, even if the world says it has no meaning or value? I don't know. The only answer I had was a sense that it was, for me, an expression of love for a helpless dead child.

Wade Burleson said...

Rex,

You bring up a good point about the BFM 2000. It was definitely agenda driven. But confessions are just that - confessions. They are not creeds.

Silly statements like the one you cite will be gone in the next one.

Wade Burleson said...

Joe Misak,

I thought it was stupid then, and I think it is stupid now.

That's why I didn't last long as a trustee.

Wade Burleson said...

RB Kuter,

My views on the New Testament teaching of leadership by Spirit giftings and not sexual gender can't all be summarized in one post or one comment.

I, indeed, see how you believe the problem is more nuanced.

I've got a couple of other posts forthcoming that may shed more light theologically, historically, and confessionally on this issue.

RB Kuter said...

Look forward to that, Wade.

RB Kuter said...

Anonymous said; "Basically, this response reflects an attitude that our gender order is higher than being “in Christ” or one’s giftedness. I really do not see where your position is much different than that of MacArthur."

Don't see the logic of your conclusion. God's redemptive work takes place within the confines of God's created order. There should be no conflict in that. Pervert that order and you pervert God's redemptive work and diminish the effectiveness of those elements God has arranged as the means for His Kingdom purposes.

Denial and rejection of that created order does nothing to enhance God's redemptive work and undermines God as The Great Conductor. Who likes that? You and I functioning within the confines of God's created order assures our being more effective and consistent with God's intent.

Somehow Anonymous, you are interpreting that as my saying that women should not be "involved" in ministry or as being something less than the glorious creation of God full of potential and intended to be used by God in the advancement of His Kingdom on earth. THAT would be a perversion of the intent of God's created order. The creation of gender identification including all of those diverse, unique, gifts, abilities, intuitive insights and sensitivities associated with that order are meant to enhance and increase the productive involvement of created humanity in God's eternal work. Strip away the recognition and value of those attributes associated with the distinctive genders and you sabotage the work of the Kingdom.

God obviously created men and women to be uniquely different from each other and gave each particular tendencies, instincts, sensitivities, passions, and emotional and physical abilities to be combined in complementary methods to increase their effectiveness in serving God and His Kingdom's purpose. Does Beth Moore offer insights and revelations that contribute to the understanding and effectiveness of our involvement in Kingdom work? Absolutely! And more effectively, no doubt, in some ways than could a male. If some male church leaders choke purely on her gender identity being different than theirs, then they have the freedom to reject her involvement in their church.

I am obviously failing to express myself (totally possible), or you are failing at listening objectively.

Rex Ray said...

Wade,

You said, “Silly statements like the one you cite will be gone in the next one.”
How long will it be before Southern Baptist update the BF&M 2000? IT’S BEEN 19 YEARS!

You said, “But confessions are just that – confessions. They are not creeds.”

I believe what the Baptist Standard published February 11, 2002 by Keith Parks: “A confession becomes a creed when others determine the beliefs one is FORCED to sign.”

https://ethicsdaily.com/13-southern-baptist-missionaries-fired-for-refusal-to-affirm-faith-statement-cms-2546/

“The Southern Baptist Convention’s International Mission Board has terminated 13 missionaries who refused to affirm the 2000 Baptist Faith & Message. IMB trustees also accepted the resignations of another 20 missionaries and early retirements by 10 missionaries who likewise refused to affirm the SBC’s newly revised, and more conservative, faith statement. The 43 missionaries parting ways with the IMB Wednesday joined ranks with at least 34 others who have resigned or retired rather than sign the document.”

Wade, those numbers added are 77 missionaries.

They don’t include my son and his wife who refused to sign but were given permission to further their education.

Wade Burleson said...

Rex,

Yep. Yep. Yep.

As to how long? Not sure. Not long though.

Unknown said...

Wade, I appreciate your articles, I find them very thoughtful. But I cannot agree with your interpretation that any woman was a pastor in the NT. And the clear passage in 1 Timothy and the lack of qualifications for a woman pastor in scripture I believe clearly teaches that men are suppose to be the pastors. You have given the best argument so far but still not convince. Also, you have always been so gracious on this blog to even others you dont like,I hope you stay that way! I have learn much from you, thanks

Unknown said...

Sorry, I did not realise my name was not going to be published. Johnny Touchet

Ken F said...

Here is an analysis by Paul Young of the typical clobber verses that is worth a listen:
https://youtu.be/iqZQLAvgIWc

Wade Burleson said...

Ken,

Thanks for the link!

Johnny Touchet,

I respect your views and even more your humble spirit.

Though I have not convinced you, I believe that in time, you will be convinced. Your spirit is so humble.

IN terms of the qualification "husband of one wife" - that same qualification is for "deacon" and Phoebe is CALLED a deaconia by the New Testament. So, how can that be?

Answer: Husband of one wife is literally "a one-woman man") look it up, and is more a character quality than a gender specific marriage quality. It means "faithfulness and loyalty in love." For example, can men who are SINGLE meet this qualification? Of course! Can women who are married meet this qualification? Of course! Look at Phoebe!

Thanks for your comment.

Bob Cleveland said...

2 things leap out at me as I contemplate this post: One is that we are willing to apply modern context to Scripture, as we must obey it in today's world. But we seldom acknowledge the context in Scripture at the time it was written! Perhaps that tendency stems from our making Scripture fit our own preconceived notions. (I think the definition of "eisegesis" fits that.

The second thing is that Psalm 37:4 clearly states that, if we take delight in the Lord, He will give us the desires of our hearts. Not that He will give us what we desire, but He will put His desires there. SO: what of the woman who delights herself in the Lord, and is given the desire to preach?

These may be above my pay grade, but, still ..... My inquiring mind wants to know.

Christiane said...

Bob Cleveland, I like the way you think. :)

nce said...

How does it add to credibilty of the world's view of the church? The mean spirited comments sure do, but if we really cared about the world watching, we would treat women equally because that is what they favor. Continuing to harbor misogyny is a horrible witness! There are many, many of us who do not neccesarily believe in identical roles for men and women. All we are asking for is what is in scripture (see above). 1 Cor 11:5 says women pray & prophecy in church. Where is that heard? Not in SBC churches! No, they have suppressed women and gone beyond scripture too boot. You can hear them grasping at power in their voices as they sputter and slander.

nce said...

I hope this is facetious. Do you really want to put any BFM before the Word of God? You do not understand the issue.

nce said...

Bless you! I had a confirmation teacher who was a nurse tell me that she did this very same thing. That would have been over 35 years ago, and I never forgot it. Hey! It just dawned on me that she was teaching guys and gals! Hmm...

Anonymous said...

https://www.baylor.edu/content/services/document.php/98759.pdf

Anonymous said...

Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
1 Timothy 2:11‭-‬12‭, ‬14 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/1ti.2.11-14.ESV

Rex Ray said...

Johnny Touchet,

https://chognews.org/2019/08/20/japan-celebrates-increasing-number-of-women-in-ministry/

“One was the report of the growing representation of women among clergy in the Church of God in Japan…Out of a total of fourteen Churches of God, four are now pastored by women…the Church of God in Japan became the third assembly in the region to ordain women pastors…” [One present of the population of Japan are Christian.]

“One male pastor said that his only concern about women pastors was that the seminaries (there are six open seminaries at present) are getting more women students than men. One seminary has 50 students - 30 women and 20 men. “Women seem more open to the call of God than men do," he said wistfully. All students who wish to go to seminary must spend about two years working in their home church before they go. In this process, pastors have a chance to evaluate the depth of their commitment to Christ and their doctrinal soundness. If the church recommends the student to seminary, the church also supports him or her during seminary training.”


https://www.cbeinternational.org/resources/article/priscilla-papers/women-and-church-china-0
“…most pastoral staffs included women pastors…there are also many, many "house~ churches - small groups of believers who meet together in a home to worship, pray, study the Bible. These began as “undercover" churches after the Communist revolution. Many of these churches (perhaps a majority) were led by women. This may be one reason the open churches have been able to ordain women even though seminary education is just getting under way.”

Johnny, I believe these women were called by the Holy Spirit. To resist their calling, we would be fighting God.

Wade Burleson said...

Anonymous,

Before you place a comment quoting I Timothy 2:11-12, 14, at least be courteous enough to READ the article linked in my blog that gives the cultural, scriptural, and theological context of I Timothy 2.

Here is the link again for Artemis and the End of Us

Rileydogbarks said...

RB Kuter, I appreciate your thought on this allowing autonomous churches to decide who their pastor will be. However, the problem becomes when churches want to continue historical cooperation are given a litmus test that does not bear witness in Scripture. If I'm understanding you correctly, the principle for pastoral leadership must include a church understanding its culture, place, and community in regards to choosing a pastor (with which I would totally agree). The struggle comes when that same church determines that their interpretation of the qualifications in their place is the requirement for other churches to work together for the Kingdom.

Trying to argue Biblical fidelity to male only pastors in counter to Old Testament prophecy (my sons and daughters will prophesy) and to New Testament practice.

RB Kuter said...

Riley, I agree with you totally and understand that I over-simplified the issue in the sense of proposing that individual, autonomous congregations can function in that capacity. We all are a part of God's church and the complications that arise when we try to function cooperatively as "one body" are no doubt what causes us to squabble and get into each other's business of functioning in God's Kingdom work.

So as I throw different perspectives in the mix that sometimes may seem to conflict with what Wade is saying, I continue to appreciate him and his involvement in that cooperative effort. We do need to work together and we need leaders like Wade to challenge us when "our church" veers off of a course that God intends. I do not believe God intends for individual groups to work independently from others. We do impact each other as we work together and as a "whole" we do need to protect the integrity of the church.

I think we Baptists have the fundamentals right but it requires a lot of leadership humility, love, and grace, which we all have difficulties in exercising.

So thank you for touching on that.

Rileydogbarks said...

RB Kuter wrote: "I think we Baptists have the fundamentals right but it requires a lot of leadership humility, love, and grace, which we all have difficulties in exercising."

You sir, win the internet for the day!!!

Anonymous said...

Wade, I believe using Rom 16:1-2 actually has a better understanding about how the letter got to the Church in Rome more than seeing her role as an office holder (aka. deacon). While in school, my prof. Dr Alan Tomlinson taught that Phoebe was a letter carrier (Courier). He demonstrated from several sources to demonstrate this position. Here is an article from a fellow prof. of Dr Tomlinsons that sheds some light on Phoebe. Hope this sheds some light on this particular text and how it should be used in reference to the context.

https://swbts.edu/sites/default/files/images/content/docs/journal/56_1/56.1%20Phoebe%2C%20the%20Letter%20Carrier%20of%20Romans%2C%20and%20the%20Impact%20of%20Her%20Role%20on%20Biblical%20Theology%20Wilder.pdf
Garrell

Anonymous said...

I do not think all older people (like me) have lost their mind or will, but it does appear John MacArthur has lost his. In a strange way, I pray he has. Otherwise, it means he really is what his words suggest--someone who is legitimately not following Jesus. He may be saved, but he is not living according to the teachings of Jesus or the Scripture he claims to be so important to him. To tell Beth Moore to "go home." To intimate she is a heretic. To compare her to someone "hawking jewelry" or promoting herself is an embarrassment to all who love Jesus and revere His Word. Can you imagine Jesus speaking about anyone this way? Much less, someone who has given her life to helping people follow Jesus. Even more insulting is the arrogance with which he proudly proclaims his limited use of Scripture is the only possible "Biblical view." There is no need to prove that perspective as false. You have already done that well in your blog. I am a Biblical Conservative man who is committed to Jesus, and I could not disagree more with John MacArthur. My prayer is for Beth Moore and other girls and women like her who are called of God to ministry and are discouraged by people like him. God please encourage these women. Give them opportunities. Change religious hearts. The lost world needs them.

Victorious said...

Well said, Anonymous! Excellent comment!

Having heard years of this type of insult, I find it an obvious type of verbal abuse. And having it inflicted by a supposed brother in Christ is unconscionable.

Mary Ann

Unknown said...

JMac made a cardinal mistake equating "preaching" with church leadership. Proclamation of the gospel has never been reserved to apostles or elders regardless of what one believes about the oversight roles in the NT church. Preaching, teaching and prophesying is not reserved for church leadership only but for all believers. Besides, when did Beth Moore claim authority over local churches? JMac and Friel are defintely "mys-guided."

Christiane said...

FYI

https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthelper/1911-taylor-opening-statement/71cb2f887efc7eb76629/optimized/full.pdf#page=1

Grainne said...

Marg Mowsczco writes on all the passages which are relevant and is worth 'googling'. Her blog has become very influential in laying out the egalitarian position.

HongBi said...

I truly appreciate you "unpacking" the classic 1 Timothy 2 passage that keeps women "in their place" in church ministry. You also brought back memories of the attempt in 2005-2008 to restrict baptisms of new Chinese converts, allowing only ordained SBC pastors from the U.S. to conduct those baptisms. In a Communist country, that would have resulted in our entire East Asia mission force being expelled. We were very grateful when that ill-conceived motion was dismissed!

Rex Ray said...

https://www.newsobserver.com/living/religion/article201291119.html

“Following in the footsteps of her famous father, the Rev. Billy Graham, who never missed an opportunity to urge sinners toward salvation, Ann Graham Lotz offered a public goodbye to her dad on February 21, 2018 and asked that others take up his lifelong mission to share the Gospel.

Lotz, of Raleigh, is an evangelist, author and head of AnGel Ministries who was called by her father “the best preacher in the family.”

She is one of five children born to Ruth and Billy Graham, all of whom have served in Christian ministry of one type or another. Here is the statement she released Wednesday morning about her father, who has died at age 99.

My Father’s legacy is one that encompasses the world…I think of his message because he was immersed in it. Saturated in it. He was his message…a simple man who had responded to God’s love by placing his faith in Jesus, receiving the assurance that his sins were forgiven, that he would not perish, but would have everlasting life.

For years, over his head as he preached was the banner that quoted the words of Jesus: I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Jesus completed that sentence by saying that no one comes to the Father but by Me. Based on what Jesus said, Daddy is safely with the Father in Heaven. Daddy not only claimed Jesus as the only Way to God, he lived by the Truth publicly on platforms and privately behind closed doors. He is now enjoying real Life.

I have often stated that I was raised by a single parent because ministry took my father away from our family—for weeks and months at a time. Daddy estimated that he was gone from home approximately 60 percent of his children’s growing-up years. Now, he has left again. This time, he will not be coming back. At least, not until Jesus does.

While he may be physically absent and his voice silent, I am confident that his message will continue to reverberate throughout the generations to come. My prayer on this day of his move to Our Father’s House is that his death will be a rallying cry.

That tens of thousands of pastors, teachers, evangelists, and ordinary men and women will rise up to take his place. That they will take up his message like a baton being passed in a relay race and faithfully pass it on to those with whom they come in contact.

Because Daddy’s message is God’s message. And it’s a message of genuine hope for the future, of love for the present, of forgiveness for the past.”

Christiane said...

You will see your father again, REX RAY.

Rex Ray said...

CHRISTIANE,

Yes! At 87, I’ll probably see my father before you see yours. Halleluiah

Billy Graham’s son-in-law was secretary for the Baptist World Alliance (BWA).
https://baptistnews.com/article/retired-bwa-leader-denton-lotz-dead-at-80/#.XbBf1XdFw2w

Reflecting on his approaching retirement in 2007, Lotz said his worst day at BWA was when he received a telephone call informing him the Southern Baptist Convention (CBC) was leaving the organization it helped establish in 1905.


Rex states: “The reason Lotz received a phone call was because the BWA was not allowed to attend the SBC. I was there and heard the last speaker, Paige Patterson say, “The BWA was Gay friendly.” Can you believe in America someone being on trial and not allowed to attend their trial? Why did the SBC allow Patterson to destroy the BWA it started 99 years previously? Where Lotz mentions “Baptist leaders”, he really means Paige Patterson. Afterwards, Patterson tried to start a new BWA. He traveled the world trying to get countries to join. They had to accept the BF&M 2000. He got none.”



Southern Baptist leaders said at first it was due to a “decided anti-American tone” at BWA gatherings, “continued emphasis on women as pastors…”

“We are still suffering the consequences of that unfortunate decision…Lotz told Baptist Center for Ethics leader Robert Parham in 2007. “It is absolutely false to accuse the BWA of being left wing, liberal or anti-American.”

Later grievances included disdain for the admission of the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship (CBF) as a BWA member body in 2003.

SBC leaders tried to downplay the impact of CBF inclusion on the decision, but Lotz said immediately after the BWA general council vote to accept CBF, SBC leaders approached him and said clearly, “If they are in, we are out.”

CBF Executive Coordinator Paul Baxley mourned Lotz passing: “As Cooperative Baptists, we are particularly grateful for the bold support he showed to our Fellowship,” Baxley said. “While accepting our Fellowship into the BWA family was a decision that carried great costs, Dr. Lotz reaffirmed that BWA offers ‘a home for everybody’ and reminded Cooperative Baptists and the global Baptist family that ‘we belong together because we belong to Jesus Christ.”

Robert Palculict said...

I am a misogynistic pastor for believing God's instruction in Paul's letter to Timothy? Bless you.

In Christ,
Robert Palculict
Pastor, Gate City Baptist Church, Pocatello, Idaho

Anonymous said...

No sir. You are misogynistic for endorsing John MacArther's interview with your comment, and misogynistic for ignoring the rest of the Bible concerning women. Bless you.

Victorious said...

Hello Robert Palculict,

If we fail to take the context, as well as understanding those to whom the passage was directed, and how they would have understood it....we are using selective literalism. If we take Paul's directive, for example, in 1 Cor. 7 literally and for all men for all time, they must all remain in the condition wherein they are called.

1Cor. 7:27  Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be released. Are you released from a wife? Do not seek a wife.

Other examples of Paul's words using selective literalism might be that we use wine when we have an upset stomach (1 Tim. 5:23) ; women should not braid their hair or wear gold wedding rings (1 Tim. 2:12); and we must greet one another with a holy kiss as mentioned 4 times in the NT.

And while many are preaching that wives must be in submission to their husbands, there is no scriptural evidence to support a husband leading or having authority over his wife. Mutual submission is enjoined to all believers.

Christiane said...

misogyny is a subset of misanthropy, IF males who practice misogyny think of women as 'human persons' at all

Is possible that in 'interpreting' Genesis, some males have seen fit to assign women to the curse as a 'remedy' decreed by God;
rather than a revelation by God that women would see themselves as 'lesser' as a result of the Fall . . .

simply put:
downgrading women in the Church shows up the degree of woundedness of those who downgrade them and of the women who accept this lot

But supposing the coming of Christ offered 'a better way' of living with RESPECT for all who are human persons made in the image of God, in a way that does not allow assignment to roles to dishonor the completeness of that RESPECT, which is given as a way to honor God Himself?

or simply put:
Christ brings a return to the 'either to other' form of relationship in a marriage where 'love' involves self-giving and not subjugation or subserviance towards an 'authority' figure

Christian marriage could never fit into a patriarchal model, no. I must involve the complete honoring of the dignity of both persons who pledge their support 'either to other' in a bond of love, not of submission. Huge difference, yes.

Wade Burleson said...

I am a misogynistic pastor for believing God's instruction in Paul's letter to Timothy? Bless you.

In Christ,
Robert Palculict
Pastor, Gate City Baptist Church, Pocatello, Idaho

Robert, why do I get the feeling "bless" you is a Christianese curse word. :)

Seriously, stick to your guns theologically, just be kind to those women who disagree with you and end up leading people to Jesus. One of these days we'll ask Him who is right on this issue, and I am as confident what He will say as you are. That means one of us is wrong, but I'll be kind to you till He straightens us out.

Thu Oct 24, 07:52:00 AM 2019

Michael McGirt said...

Here’s a question: which church is Beth Moore pastoring? Not that it matters, but none. Maybe some of these male pastors are jealous because she can outpreach 90% of them! I used to be one of those fundamental, legalistic woman suppressing pastors for a long time, until I discovered new covenant grace and met the most godly, Spirit-filled pastor I’ve ever met. Her name was Joyce and she pastored a Methodist church in our town. A humble, godly, preaching machine! We met together for prayer and ministry often. I had a conversation with God that went like this, either she’s a heretic and false teacher and you didn’t call her to ministry or I’ve been wrong all these years. I discovered the latter is true. I now serve as an associate pastor at a nondenominational church led by a husband and wife pastoral team, loving every minute of it. God bless women pastors, teachers and leaders!

Ken F said...

I am a misogynistic pastor for believing God's instruction in Paul's letter to Timothy?"

Hi Robert,
That is a dishonest question. The real issue is not whether or not people believe what Paul wrote. Rather, it the interpretation of what he wrote. There is very good biblical evidence that your interpretation could be wrong. But instead of diving into how best to interpret Paul, you make it sound like your interpretation is the only allowable one.

An even bigger issue is the standard by which we will all be judged. Jesus separates the sheep and the goats by how they treat others, not by the correctness of their doctrine.

Tamara said...

Thank you, Wade, for being willing to speak so clearly and forcefully about this great wrong being done to women in God's name.

Anonymous said...

I have commented before on how lacking the Southern Baptists in understanding how to apply the Torah, misapplying tithing, and also due process.

Personally, I found the following article problematic and Beth perhaps should "Go home"

https://the-end-time.org/2017/12/02/lifestyles-of-the-mega-rich-pastors-with-estates-and-private-jets-youll-be-shocked-to-see-who-is-among-them-ok-its-beth-moore/

In personally liking Lifeway and seeing many bookstores close, it looks like there are indeed ethical problems within the finances Lifeway and of Moore's ministry. But she is a woman so does she get a pass. No true chivalrous male wants to see that to be honest as this most likely is a blindspot by her. Indeed she has blessed many women in ministry. But if she is going to step up, then she needs to take the heat. Correct?? The end result is she will need males to advocate on her behalf.

But you might think I am an advocate for MacArthur in this. Far be it....

Here is his issue ( his net wort)h......its in the list.

http://hyperactivz.com/net-worths-richest-pastors-america-will-shock/


Tomorrow is reformation Sunday......

Lets start thinking if double digit millionaires are needed in the pulpit. And yes, they do exist in Southern Baptist life.

If you think, I am a socialist in addressing this, not that either. Socialism or critical theory will NEVER correct it either, only a TOrah understanding and worldview WILL!

How many preach cancellation of debt every seven years in the pulpit but preach Malachi 3 tithing toward success. Where are the sermons on debt cancellation? I do also think that the FELON stigma also hurts many to ever get financially stable. Eradication of the Felon system needs to be seriously considered. There is no place for it in Torah way of thinking. Jesus confronted the flaws of how Pharisees were handling matters of the Torah and mentioned the two hinges in which it should rotate on: love for God and love for neighbor. Its NOT a race problem its a TORAH application problem handled in love. Critical theory in incompatible PERIOD and only make matters worse.

I will say again tomorrow is Reformation Sunday, lets take these issues to heart!

Luther's Ghost

PS Yes, I regret what wrote about Jews.






Robert Palculict said...

Ken F.

There is nothing to interpret regarding the plain reading of Scripture. There is no dishonesty in my question. You accuse me of lying. I am not deceptive or lying. Dishonesty is sin. My question was mot sinful.

That said, interpretation from exegesis would be this:
Paul says to Timothy, I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man.

Why Paul?

Reason 1: The man was created first.
Reason 2: The woman was deceived.

No interpretation needed.

Do we "interpret" Christ as the only way to God when He says, No one comes to the Father except through me?

OR, Do we read the plain reading of Scripture?

I think Wade and Egalitarians have fallen prey to cultural leanings rather than explicitly standing on what has been clearly stated in the Bible.

God Help Us!
Robert Palculict

Ken F said...

"There is nothing to interpret regarding the plain reading of Scripture."

Hi Robert,
If the plain reading of scripture is as clear as you say, why are there so many different Protestant denominations who cannot agree on its clear meaning? And why are there so many English translations with so many different, and sometimes contradictory, meanings for many passages. And why are there different Greek scholars who disagree on what the original Greek must or must not mean in numerous passages? Your question is dishonest because it sweeps away all of these challenges and insists that yours is the only correct interpretation.

What is your solution when two bible believing Christians disagree on the meaning of a text? To what authority should they appeal to resolve their disagreement? If you say scripture, We have a circular argiment. So what is your solution?