"I went to Jerusalem to become acquainted (Gk. istoria) with Cephas" - Paul's words from Galatians 1:18.

Forcibly Removing the Tulips at SWBTS (Part II)


There are a couple of observations I wish to make about the uproar over my post exposing Southwestern Theological Seminary President's expressed desire to remove all the known Calvinists from the faculty of SWBTS:

(1). This expressed intent to use the downturn in the economy to rid the faculty of Calvinists has been known by various SWBTS professors and administrators, but not all professors, for at least ten days. Meetings with professors were both individual in nature, and in a couple of instances, several professors at one time.

(2). Those who are "shocked" by the expressed intent to make Southwestern Theological Seminary the anti-Southern should be ashamed. Frankly, I am not as bothered by an ideological, independent, Landmark Baptist President's desire to remove Calvinists as I am his removal of a female Hebrew professor or his attempts to remove SBC missionaries who pray with a private prayer language. If you Calvinists are unwilling to protect the latter, then don't scream when they come after your brothers.

(3). For over three years I have grown quite comfortable with hostile attacks upon my integrity. When one is publicly called a liar and a slanderer enough times, he comes to the place where he no longer cares about the reaction about what he posts. But I will always care about the content of what I post, and I will only post the truth. And time always has a way of silencing critics, for time is the great revealer of truth. I continue to blog. I continue to stand by every word I write. You can rest assured that what I have written has been confirmed multiple times by multiple sources both at Southwestern and places of legal authority in Fort Worth, Texas.

(4). The uproar over the "leak" at Southwestern is humorous to me. No stone is being unturned to find who it was that let the cat out of the bag. My question, however, is different: Why is the President at SWBTS so concerned over who said what about SWBTS rather than what is being done to our seminary on the basis of his particular ideology?

(5). As of today, there has been a softening, and some say even a "retraction" of this past week's expressed intent to remove Calvinists from the faculty of Southwestern. Some say the retraction is an attempt to spite those who revealed the plan. If that happens, and Calvinists keep their job, I will receive no thanks from those who continued to be employed by SWBTS. Rather, I will continue to be called every name in the book (and some not in it). My satisfaction, however, rests in the fact that I prevented some removals based upon an a particular ideology that is consuming the SBC (anti-women, anti-charasmatic, anti-Calvinist, Landmark, etc . . ). Like I have often said, if we don't stop the narrowing, we will wake up and the Convention will resemble a large independent fundamentalist Baptist church in Kentucky rather than the historic, cooperative Southern Baptist Convention of years ago.

(6). There will be faculty reductions at SWBTS as there will be at Southern and other educational institutions of the Southern Baptist Convention. But, due to the uproar over the exposure of removing only the Calvinists at SWBTS, the chosen method of reduction, at least as of today, will be different.

(7). Southern Baptists better realize the path being taken by some leaders, and by God's grace, we better do all within our power to stop the forced removal of those people from SBC service and employment who don't agree with particular ecclesiological, soteriological and eschatological idealogues leading our Convention. This week was a solid step in the right direction. And, as the picture above shows, saving the tulips at SWBTS is on behalf of the next generation of Southern Baptists.

In His Grace,


Wade

230 comments:

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WatchingHISstory said...

Homosexuality keeps appearing as a topic here, strange.

What is ironic is the NASS opines about me being a pedophile and a homo and will not apologized about her libleous statements yet an ordained SBC associate pastor working at Bellevue Baptist sodomized his own son for 12-18 months under Dr Rogers leadership and she can opine about me.

Is there anyone who can see the problem with this? Does this get anyone's attention? I'll bet that homosexuality is embedded deep in SBC institutions.

But shoot the messenger!

Anonymous said...

Wade,

I just listened to his interview over at SBC today and to me it sounded like he danced all around the subject - might be worth keeping for the future.

http://sbctoday.com/2009/02/05/a-brief-visit-with-dr-paige-patterson/

Blessings
Jeff

Anonymous said...

Sounds like somebody owes a lot of people an apology. Will it ever come? Doubtful. Chicken Little will continue to scream that the sky is falling in the SBC, and when it doesn't fall take credit for warning us and stopping it.

On a side note, BP News is reporting that Cooperative Program giving has recovered; and is ahead of pace for month and fiscal year. Year-to-date contributions through the Southern Baptist Convention's Cooperative Program are 0.81 percent ahead of the same time frame last year, according to a news release from SBC Executive Committee President and Chief Executive Officer Morris H. Chapman.

As of Jan. 31, the year-to-date total of $68,249,599.92 for Cooperative Program (CP) missions is $550,037.30 ahead of the $67,699,562.62 received at the end of January 2008.

It seems the SBC is not dead after all, despite reports to the contrary.

volfan007 said...

Wade,

Your "sources" must not be very good. From what I understand, there was no "preacher boys" dinner. In fact, there was no "preacher boys." Unless you want to count Wes as the "preacher boys," and your preemptive comment knowing about the "interview" mysteriously appeared after it was told that there was an interview....do you have the computer know how to insert comments and play around with time stamps?

Wade, what in the world is going on with you? This just keeps getting stranger and stranger by the minute.

David

Bob Cleveland said...

Well, we can sure do a test on the time stamp deal. I'm posting this at 9:17 am CST. Let's see what the computer says.

Ian said...

Wes,
Was this interview supposed to convince us that Calvinist may not be fired.
For a man who demands that pastors be clear in there proclamation of their calvinism. It was pretty clear to me.
I would say he was "drowning " in his
Arminianism.

Please listen to this well done video on Limited Atonement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue21vCvpoqI

From the Southern Baptist Geneva
Robert I Masters

Unknown said...

Wes Kenney,

And just why would anyone here desire to read anything you have written? Those who ban Baptist Ministers from posting comments on their Fundamentalist Only Blog have “NO”, “NOTA”, “ZERO”, credibility in my opinion.

I don’t think anyone is surprised to find that you and your merry band of “Baptist Identity” Thought Police over at SBC Today are carrying the water for Paige Patterson on this one.

Grace Always,

Unknown said...

Tim Rogers,

I know you are “lurking” around here somewhere so this one is for you:

Did you know that the “vast majority of Southern Baptist hold Pelagian beliefs of some sort or another…”

Grace Always,

Rex Ray said...

New BB Open Forum,
Wow! You hit the nail on the head when you published Patterson’s answer to “Is their any truth to that rumor?” (The one that Wade reported.)

Up to that point, Patterson’s replies were smooth as silk, but in using 285 words to say ‘yes’ or ‘no’, his six “ummm”, four “eh”, five “uh”, and eight “uhhh” reveals his brain was going a mile a minute trying to keep from lying.

Regardless of all his stalling and wiggling, his “hope not” was still a lie.


Once, Patterson whispered in my ear, “We got all we could” in replying if Criswell’s Study Bible had answered all the discrepancies in the Bible. But to the crowd, he yelled, “We got all of them!”

Tim Marsh said...

Anonymous,

No I have not heard of Nathan Finn, nor will I ever hear of him. That is my point exactly.

Too, one respondent said that the SBC seminaries could their methods under the guise that they are training ministers for ministry in the church.

One of the hallmarks of Baptist beginnings was their ability to critically judge the state-sanctioned churches and break away.

When indoctrinated, and unable to think for oneself, such critical judgments about one's own tradition do not take place in the mind of the minister, nor in the minds of denominational leadership. Thus, the Reformation principle that we are always reforming ends.

If it took over 1000 years for a monk named Martin Luther to re-discover "The righteous will live by faith" for the church, then what treasures are now hidden by tradition waiting to be discovered.

Indoctrination will never allow those treasures to be discovered.

Blessings!

Tom Parker said...

Tim:

I said to you:"Tim Rogers:

What is it like to get to post a comment on someone else's blog without being censored; that is being blocked from posting your comment. Some of us do not have that luxury with you. What are you afraid of?

As I attempted to post on your blog--You are a very divisive person!!! But you do not like to be challenged. Do you remember mine and your conversation around Christmas time 2008. Have you changed your mind on your position that you took?

Your response to me:"Too, one respondent said that the SBC seminaries could their methods under the guise that they are training ministers for ministry in the church."

Talk about not answering basic questions. You are mighty evasive. Who will you try to kick out next?

Anonymous said...

JOE BLACKMON wrote:

'Someone cannot be homoscxual and Christian.'

There are sometimes babies born where the sexual organs are mixed.
My brother, who is a pediatrician, has seen evidence of this when called in to examine a new-born in his thirty-plus years of practice.
These innocent infants are at the mercy of our compassion.

Stories about what has happened to these babies, in the past, are tragic beyond belief.

May I suggest that it is those among us who lack compassion for those who are 'different' that are not Christian.

There are many born into our world with anomalies of all kinds. Their treatment is a reflection of our ability to be humane and our ability to follow the Lord Christ.

May God give us understanding to care for those who are 'different'.
And may God have mercy on the ones who suffer because of our lack of compassion. L's

Anonymous said...

Wes, you wrote:

"By the way, nice trick with the time stamp there. The "preemptive" comment did not exist before my comment linking to the "dinner" interview."

As a matter of fact, the trick is on you. The "preemptive" comment did in fact appear before yours because I read it and it was the last comment in the thread at the time. Yours was nowhere around.

Nice attempt at discrediting Wade by trying to insinuate deception on his part. You end up (as usual) being the one discredited and seen as deceptive.

Bob

Joe Blackmon said...

L's

Huge difference between someone who is born with a birth defect and someone attracted to their own sex. Let's pause to consider first of all that while some people interpret studies to suggest that people are born gay no one can conclusively prove that. Further, let's consider someone who claims they have always been attracted to their own sex, even from a very early age. It does not follow that simply because we crave or what something that our feelings are morally right according to God's word. In fact, the Bible makes pretty plain that our hearts are full of wickedness.

Therefore, I stand by my contention that someone cannot be a Christian and a practicing homosexual. God may grant someone repentance from that and they live the rest of their life having to choose to follow Christ or to follow their flesh into that temptation daily. However, we all have sins that we struggle with--some sins mroe than others.

I would add, finally, that there is a lack of compassion toward homosexuals in the church. I think you can be comapssionate to someone while still telling them what the Bible says about sin.

Tim Marsh said...

Tom Parker,

I am not Tim Rogers. You highlighted my comment and attributed to Tim Rogers.

Sorry for the confusion.

Tim

Anonymous said...

Dear Joe Blackmon,

It's me, L's

I believe that the goal is to 'hate the sin' not the sinner.

So, would you agree with this change:

Instead of saying, "I would add, finally, that there is a lack of compassion toward homosexuals in the church."

Could you accept this: "I would add, finally, that there is a lack of compassion towards HOMOSEXUALITY in the Church." ?

I, myself, am non-judgmental on this issue as I am unsure of whether this 'affliction', if you want to call it that, is a choice or not. I am tending towards the thought that it is NOT a choice.
Reason: so many teenage suicides (one-third) are the result of young people not knowing how to handle their feelings about their sexual orientation. Many have written or said, "Why did God do this to me?"
So, Joe, I just don't understand why a young person, with their whole life ahead of them, would 'chose' a lifestyle and then 'chose' to kill themselves because of it.

Because of my own confusion, I refrain from any judgment on these individuals. Just a tremendous sense of pity for their suffering and a tremendous sense of not wanting to contribute to that suffering.

I think I do understand your point of view though. I believe that many Christians think that they must condemn as sin, for the sake of the person, but please, we should not 'turn away' from them in their suffering. Especially the young, who are so needing for someone to listen and try to understand what they are going through. They are in way too much need of our compassionate Christian care, not our rejection.
Love, L's

Joe Blackmon said...

L's

I guess I'd be ok with that change. However, regardless of how the person with those desires FEELS simply having those FEELINGS does not make them right. Even if they were born like that, which we can't prove, that does not change what the word of God says. The Bible is the final authority not feelings.

Joe Blackmon said...

L's

I should add that we definitely should not make people feel like they're so far gone that God cannot save them if they repent. Also, proclaiming the truth of what the Bible says not only can but should be done in a loving manner.

Anonymous said...

feel certain that the Christians that serve at seminaries like SEBTS lose quite a bit of sleep over what "scholars" like those at Wake Forrest, Mercer, and Duke (all seminaries that allow homosexuals to enroll and support the idea of female pastors) think. I don't know what the body of Christ would do without some of the professors at those schools who tell us that the Bible is just a bunch of fairy tales and should not be relied upon. Thank goodness for their godly influence.

Thu Feb 05, 09:28:00 AM 2009

Joe, Lets go over to Stop Baptist Predators and see how many of the SBC perverts there came out of our seminaries. Might be an interesting study.

Lydia

Lin said...

Well, we can sure do a test on the time stamp deal. I'm posting this at 9:17 am CST. Let's see what the computer says.

Thu Feb 05, 11:17:00 AM 2009

You mean THAT time stamp? :o)

Anonymous said...

Dear JOE,
it's me, L's

Thank you for responding.
I think we both want what is best for people, although we emphasize different things.
I appreciate that you took the time to read my thoughts and to respond.
In some better world than this, people might have more understanding for each other. Love, L's

Joe Blackmon said...

Lydia

There is a pretty huge difference between a seminary knowing that a prospective student is homosexual and saying "Hey if it's alright with you it's alright with the man upstairs" and a seminary not knowing about a student's sin and allowing them to matriculate through.

Now if a seminary knew of a student engaged in some sort of sin like sexual abuse and they did nothing that is wrong as well as accepting openly homosexual students. But that doesn't all of a sudden make it alright for the seminaries I mentioned to knowingly accept homosexual students.

Joe Blackmon said...

L's

Anytime.

Anonymous said...

I said, "Speaking of which, there use to be another female professor in the O.T. department around the same timeframe as the Hebrew Prof. Does anyone know what happened to her? I think she was a part-time professor getting her PhD at the time."

Anonymous said, "Dr. Bullock was her name."

Response: No, that's not whom I was asking. Dr. Karen Bullock was a church history professor, not the other O.T./Hebrew professor at SWBTS. I had a female O.T. and Hebrew professor by the name of Catherine/Katherine Bryan. She was a PhD candidate and teaching at the same timeframe with Dr. Klouda. I wonder what happened to her? When I called SWBTS, they claim they never heard of her. But I still have my O.T. and Hebrew syllabus to show otherwise. hmmmm.

Anonymous said...

Wade Burleson said...
And, by the way, to the anonymous student who said he was in the library whose comment was deleted.

The word is "hearsay" not "heresay." Looks like you have been attending the Tim G. school of spelling. :) (I corrected Mr. G. on the same word last week).

It might actually helped if you did go to the library more often.

Wed Feb 04, 04:06:00 PM 2009




Wade Burleson said...
Joe White,

Sorry, didn't see your last question. I wrote that particular comment because I had just received the email about the meeting. I had not paid much attention to my blackberry buzzing (I get WAY too many emails) and after I read the email about the meeting with Patterson, I knew that there would be a post to discredit me, so I won't the "preemptive" comment, to let folks know I knew it was coming.

Blessings,

Wade

P.S. Joe, do you work for a living?


Tim Lee says:

Wade, I believe you meant to say 'wrote' instead of 'won't'.

There is something about that mote and beam thing that you might want to take a look at.

Anonymous said...

I originally placed this under the blind and blindfolded blog however it actually should go here.

Wade Burleson said...
And, by the way, to the anonymous student who said he was in the library whose comment was deleted.

The word is "hearsay" not "heresay." Looks like you have been attending the Tim G. school of spelling. :) (I corrected Mr. G. on the same word last week).

It might actually helped if you did go to the library more often.

Wed Feb 04, 04:06:00 PM 2009




Wade Burleson said...
Joe White,

Sorry, didn't see your last question. I wrote that particular comment because I had just received the email about the meeting. I had not paid much attention to my blackberry buzzing (I get WAY too many emails) and after I read the email about the meeting with Patterson, I knew that there would be a post to discredit me, so I won't the "preemptive" comment, to let folks know I knew it was coming.

Blessings,

Wade

P.S. Joe, do you work for a living?


Tim Lee says:

Wade, I believe you meant to say 'wrote' instead of 'won't'.

There is something about that mote and beam thing that you might want to take a look at.

Bill Victor said...

Not to defend Patterson, but how many non-Calvinists are at Southern?

Ruddy said...

Keep up the good fight! There was a time when the SBC was a place of reason and intellect. Those of us who are in the ABC or CBF left b/c they couldn't stand this non-sense.

Anonymous said...

As a student at SWBTS, all I know is that I have never heard a negative word concerning evangelical Calvinists, either from the president or from professors. I do know we have some Calvinists in leadership positions. And, I have heard negative comments about Armenians, and Landmarkism has also been dismissed by at least one professor as historically impossible. I can neither confirm nor deny Dr. Burleson's report, but I am suspicious; so far he has provided no evidence beyond hearsay to support his premise. Is it possible this is simply a rumor? Thus far, he has provided no way to confirm.

Anonymous said...

During a previously referenced video interview with President Patterson, Patterson stated that he hopes to not need to lay off any of the faculty (professors), and if he does, he will not use a [theological] screen to do so. He reminded that he would not need an economic reason to fire a professor based on theology. President Patterson also pointed out that professors at SWBTS hold to various degrees of TULIP, including 5-point. As an employee of SWBTS, I can confirm that this is true. I've even heard rumors of which types of faculty might be cut in a worse-case scenario; never have I heard any SWBTS employee rumor that theology would have anything to do with these firings. I HAVE heard President Patterson joke with and defend Calvinists in chapel. I have NEVER heard President Patterson plot against them. I've never even heard campus rumors plot against them. From what I've seen and heard in SWBTS offices and chapel, Wade Burleson's assertion seems absurd.

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