"I went to Jerusalem to become acquainted (Gk. istoria) with Cephas" - Paul's words from Galatians 1:18.

Are Southern Baptists Blind or Blindfolded?

As time goes by I continue to wonder if Southern Baptists are actually blind or simply blindfolded. Our Convention is being transformed before our very eyes and I wonder if it is even being seen for what it is. Over three years ago, in a blog post entitled Crusading Conservatives vs. Cooperating Conversatives: The Battle for the Future of the Southern Baptist Convention I wrote these words:

When are people in the Southern Baptist Convention going to stand up and say enough is enough? The Southern Baptist Convention is now moving toward a time when everyone must look the same, talk the same, act the same, believe the same on the non-essentials of the faith, or else you will be removed as "not one of us." Today it is private prayer language vs. cessationists and the proper administrator of baptism vs. biblical baptism. Tomorrow it might be Calvinism vs Arminianism or dispensationalism vs. preterism. Where will it end?

The nature of independent, fundamentalist Baptists - Baptists who claim their true Landmark heritage through the ana-baptists of Europe and not the particular Baptists of England - is to separate from everyone who is not the "pure" bride of Christ. These separatists desire no cooperation, demand conformity, and are cock sure that every word they breathe is the mind of God. After a ten year personal slumber, I woke up three years ago and saw that this separatist, Landmark spirit is controlling our Convention and agency boards. I knew that if somebody didn't speak out against the narrowing of the definition of what it means to be a Southern Baptist, then those who "control" the SBC would wind up excluding, removing, and disfellowshipping anyone who didn't look like them. I spoke out for those who believe in the continuation of the gifts, but were removed from our mission field. I have spoken out on behalf of women who taught at our seminaries and were fired for being women. I have spoken out against the extraordinary efforts to turn the SBC into one giant Fundamentalist Baptist church.

This week I pointed out that the architect of the Southern Baptist Convention is now going after Calvinists. Dr. Paige Patterson has expressed his intentions to administrators and professors at SWBTS to not have anyone on faculty at Southwestern who holds to five-point Calvinism. This is not conjecture; it is fact. It is also consistent with his actions of removing anyone who doesn't believe like he. People like Sheri Klouda, who saw nothing wrong with a woman teaching a man Hebrew. People like trustee Dwight McKissic, who believe his gift of a private prayer language is from the Holy Spirit. People like certain professors who believed in the continuation of the gifts. Now Dr. Patterson has turned his eye of disunion to five-point Calvinists.

Ironically, the defenders of this purge in the Southern Baptist Convention, those who are closed-communion, Landmark, separatist Baptists, like Patterson himself, defend Dr. Patterson to the nth degree. Their ideologies line up with his. Unfortunately, the Calvinists are waking up at the time they are the ones in the cross hairs. At some point, the Calvinists who didn't believe me will come back and say, "You were right." I, however, am uninterested in being proved right. I am only interested in people removing their blindfolds and seeing what is happening in our beloved Convention.

I have no problem with Landmark, independent, closed-communion, separatist, fundamentalist Baptists participating in the Southern Baptist Convention. Their anti-women, anti-charismatic, anti-Calvinist, anti-cooperation, and "anti-everthing they are not," does sometimes give me a head ache. But, I do not want them gone.

I want them to stop removing Southern Baptists from ministry and service who aren't like them.

Patterson's Intentions Clear and Consistent

In a taped conversation with Paige Patterson last night, a young pastor who idolizes Dr. Patterson and holds to the same ideology to that of his mentor, asked Dr. Patterson about the "rumors" that he desired to remove the Calvinists from the faculty at Southwestern. The questions and answers, courtesy of the transcript provided by New BBC Forum, are as follows . . .

Interviewer: "I've been asked recently about a rumor that these economic challenges have been used as an excuse uh... to weed out certain professors at Southwestern who hold to a soteriological viewpoint with which you disagree. Is there any truth to that rumor?"

Paige Patterson: "Ummm... eh you... you know... eh uh... I certainly hope not. Uhhh... eh uh... eh... I've lived my entire life... of life in a goldfish bowl... and... as boldly as I know how to do it. Uhhh... we're not certain at all that we're going to have to eliminate any professor. We have been working very, very hard to... ummm... to cut everything else in the world so we don't have to cut professors and... uh... we don't know yet what we're gonna have to do, but we... we're hopeful that we don't have to cut any professors. If we do... ummm... I will not use a... uhhh... screen... uh... to do that with. Ummm... if if if... every decision that I make regarding faculty would be made with a view to assisting the school to be the best school it possibly can be. Ummm... we have every conceivable soteriological view on the campus... uhhh... in terms of five points of Calvinism. We have one-pointers, two-pointers, three-pointers, four-pointers, and five-pointers. Uhhh... I will say this. Uhhh... Southwestern will not build a school in the future around anybody who could not look anybody in the world in the eyes and say, "Christ died for your sins." If there is a problem there, then I believe there's a problem that Southern Baptists would not want to fund.

Interviewer: "True."

Paige Patterson: "And so uhhh... uhhh... that would be the case, but I wouldn't be hidin' behind a screen of economic matters... if I had to deal with that".

Interviewer: "Sure."

Paige Patterson: "And uhhh... uh... God willing... ummm... if He's gracious to us... God's people continue to give... maybe we won't have to lay off anybody else."

Interviewer: "That's what we're prayin' for. Yes."

The Confirmation that Calvinists are Targeted Is in the Tape

Other than the interesting fact the interviewer expresses agreement on three separate occasions in his little "interview," it strikes me that Dr. Patterson doesn't deny his agenda, but rather confirms it.

Listen to his words: Southwestern will not build a school in the future around anybody who could not look anybody in the world in the eyes and say, "Christ died for your sins."

Uh, Dr. Patterson, that is precisely what a five-point Calvinist will not do. A Calvinist will not tell just "anybody" that "Christ died for your sins." He will, however, look anybody in the eye and say, "Christ died for sinners. Do you know yourself to be a sinner and in need of a Savior? If so, Christ died for you."

Again, a five point Calvinist will never look just "anybody" in the eye and say "Christ died for you." He will not say that to the man who loves his adultery and scoffs at repentance. He will not say that to a woman who loves herself and will not bow to the Lordship of Christ. He will not say that to Adolph Hitler as Hitler takes Jews to the gas galleys. He will not say that to the sinner who has no sense of his sin. He will not say "Christ died for you" because he doesn't know if Christ did or not.

That's five point Calvinism.

The Calvinist believes that those for whom Christ died evidence Christ's death for them by their faith in the Son and their repentance of sins. God delivers, completely and eternally, only the sinners for whom He gave His Son. This is what Calvinism teaches. As Charles Spurgeon, the great Calvinist preacher of over 150 years ago, so eloquently declared about the elect and the reason God passes over them in judgment:

God will, God must, pass over us, because He spared not our glorious Substitute

The Calvinist is not a universalist. He believes that some sinners will be judged and condemned for their sins. These are those sinners for whom Christ did not die. It is the essence of five-point Calvinism, and these are the people Patterson wishes to purge from Southwestern. If Southern Baptists cannot see that the purging in the Southern Baptist Convention continues, and that anyone who doesn't agree with a particular ecclesiological, soteriological, pneumatological and eschatological ideology of those currently in charge and their vocal sychophants, then we are in a very dangerous place as a cooperating convention of autonomous churches.

There are a few Southern Baptists who do get it. Their blindfolds have been removed. Hopefully, more will follow.


In His Grace,


Wade

613 comments:

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Chris said...

Stephen,

A good word. I pray that more will hear it.

I fear that we are as close to apostasy and ineffectualism as was the state church in Germany at the time of Hitler. And what was the primary problem for them? According to Larry Rasmussen, it was the ethical belief that had been sustained for generations teaching that being a good Christian was synonomous with being a good German and vice versa. So if being a good German means killing Jews...

Nationalism is a fickle fire. If I must claim a national status, I will opt for the Kingdom of God before any other.

Thank you for your words. This issue has been on my heart a great deal lately and it was wonderful to hear that I am not the only one with concerns.

Richard said...

Can someone answer me why all these bloggers who have attacked Wade have now shut down all their blog posts? What is the DEAL!!!!!

Also, am I the only one that listened to the Patterson interview and came away scratching my head about how horribly bad this man answered the question of removing Calvinists? The guy bumbled, stuttered, said, "Uh, Uh, Uh" one million times. It sounded like my four year old caught with his hand in the cookie jar trying to explain that it really wasn't there. Gee whiz people.

Also, whoever that Wes guy is on the interview, he did a horrible job. He was as impartial as Ben Ladin is toward Al Queda. Good night.

At least Pastor Burleson keeps his comments open, his posts up and stands by what he writes. These other "bloggers" wimp out when the going gets tough. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM HAS SHUT DOWN COMMENTS.

Wow, talk about hypocrisy.

Burt

greg.w.h said...

Benji's reference to Romans 3:4 brings to mind that Paul is referring to this verse in Psalms 51:

Against you, you only, have I sinned
and done what is evil in your sight,
so that you are proved right when you speak
and justified when you judge.


Charlie Peacock did an absolutely gorgeous version of this song that is on his West Coast Diaries Vol 2. There are times when I find myself singing that phrase "so that you are proved RIGHT, when you speak, and justified when you judge." I offer that song to anyone who wants to understand the full context of Paul's reference and why he would say that men must be liars so that God can be proved right and righteous.

I also think it's helpful to remember the situation that led to this Psalm and to remember how God had to completely humiliate David in order to save him from his sin and to cause him to confess his sin and to repent from it. And this was a man that the Bible refers to as "a man after God's own heart." And remember the point of climax and catharsis in that story: "You are that man."

Again, the caution is there in
Scripture for us to consider. The question is whether we consider ourselves "right" or if we, like the repentant David, realize that our confession of sin proves God right and proves him just. We can't have it both ways.

Greg Harvey

Rick said...

I did a little checking on my own. Apparently, using Blogger, is isn't possible to edit comments or edit time stamps. Here is what it says on blogger help:

It is not possible to edit comments. If you want to edit your own comment, you can simply delete it and then re-enter it with the changes. (However, the timestamp will be modified to reflect the time of the new comment.)

Here is the url for that blogger help page: http://help.blogger.com/bin/answer.py?hl=en-ch&answer=42398

I tried to get into the system to edit comments and timestamps, but my hacking skills are evidently not good enough to do that.

Wade, I cannot imagine why you might intentionally lie about the veracity of the initial post. My question is, are you sure you weren't being fed bad information deliberately in hope of causing embarrassment or a ruckus? Do you know the person (that gave you the initial info) so well as to trust their info and their intentions?

I hope that when I am attacked as you have been, I show restraint and grace as you have shown.

Shall we remember: John 13:35

Anonymous said...

Burt, you're not alone in your thinking. There's a guy named Steve who earlier this morning was upset enough about the actions of these blogging pastors that he said he is writing to the church leadership of those places where these pastors minister. I personally prefer that approach myself, more than anonymous flamers who attack character.

Wade Burleson said...

Rick,

I am on my way out for a day of ministry and golf, so I will be unable to respond any further. However, let me assure you that after blogging for three years, with a book coming out in a few weeks, and all the things I've been through, I know what it means to write accurately and truthfully.

Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, with current administrative leadership, was attempting to remove avowed Calvinist who believe in Particular Redemption. It was being done quietly, and not everyone was involved in the process, but it was being done.

Most of the conversations were small, and they consisted of Dr. Patterson and professors. On a couple of occasions there were a handful of faculty in the room and other administrators, and it was never "one" meeting, but several meetings. There was never any offical "faculty" meeting, and not everyone knew of the intentions to make Southwestern the anti-Southern by removing Calvinists, but it was happening.

I not only know my sources, I trust them. They are not passing on second hand information, it is first hand. SWBTS leaders wanted to remove their "Calvinists" - period.

What is so surprising to me is the outrage over this attempt. I have never called Dr. Patterson corrupt. I have never said he was deceitful. I have never questioned his character.

Frankly. I admire the man. He is a Landmark, independent Fundamentalist Baptist of the ana-Baptist persuasion who has affiliated himself over the years with the Southern Baptist Convention. The problem with his mentality is that he thinks everyone should be like him, and he removes those who don't think like him.

It has happened to the charismatics (i.e. private prayer language). It has happened to the women (i.e. Dr. Klouda and others), and it is now happening to the "Calvinists."

All the man is doing is being consistent with the core of his being.

I admire that.

But he shouldn't be calling the shots, nor people like him, in the SBC. They will destroy the cooperative nature of our Convention.

Being attacked for speaking the truth comes with the territory. I can handle it, and I'm not offended. I just keep plugging away.

Have a great day!

Wade

Strong Tower said...

"ministry and golf"

Now we know you are truly Southern Baptist ;)

Richard said...

Pastor Wade.

You rock!!!

Burt

Bob Cleveland said...

We all live mostly on hearsay, don't we? Isn't that what talking about something we learned from someone else, or something we know from looking at a map, is?

And the only place I know that hearsay is not "admissible" is in a court of law, and for anyone who decried a certain professor's taking someone to court, arguing about hearsay in this setting seems really hypocritical.

For all the rest, it's simple nonsense.

p.s.: "Ministry and golf" sounds PCA, too, but you can fix that by having fried chicken for lunch.

roger said...

The responses and "debate" on this blog and many others are very interesting to observe. This is one of the reasons so many are turned off by organized religion. I'm not talking about the unchurched - I'm specifically mean church going Christians. I really question the "calling" of many to full time ministry. As we sit in the pews - volunteer to teach, serve, coach, etc all the given ministries - the "called" struggle for power, prestige and money. It appears in many instances they are no different than the average person working their way up the corporate ladder. Seldom do you see anyone "called" to a smaller church. After sitting in church for over four decades I can no longer stomach the majority of tithes and offerings going to salaries than to help the orphans/widows. The people on both sides of the Calvinism/Arminnian debate make me sick to my stomach. There are scriptues that back both ideas - Christians are so busy arguing that lost people are going to hell as all our energy is being spent winning an argument. We are so busy being the older brother of the Prodigal son that we forget to look for our lost brother, love him and feast with him -because we have become so judgemental and consumed with our own inheritance. It is the reason our children - at the rate of around 90% want nothing to do with foraml "church" after high school. They see through it all. We need to get busy being light and salt. I am sad to say that coming from a heritage of preachers and deacons I have come to the decision to phase out of "church" and focus on working at a local mission. The power players better wake up or within a decade that will not have enough in the pews to make a diffrenece.
Respectfully
Roger

Chris said...

In his comment posted today at 11:46 A.M. Wade wrote that "Nobody controls my pen but God."

Really? A clearer example of hubris, megalomania and conceit can hardly be imagined.

Timothy said...

Chris,

I read the comment. Wade is responding to someone who is asking why the people at SWBTS who know what is going on don't speak out themselves. Wade responds:

"When there is a climate in the SBC that anyone who speaks out against current leadership is called a "wild-eyed liberal," "liar," "slanderer," "sociopath," etc . . .

It's best to hold your tongue, particular if your livelihood depended on it.

I have nothing to lose, nor nothing to gain.

Therefore, nobody controls my pen but God."


Sound like to me, Chris, that his meaning is only understood in context. He is not afraid of people, like you, who seem to wish him ill or harm - particularly when you take his words out of context. In fact, Chris, it is quite possible that it is your character that is revealed to others when you try to harm Pastor Burleson's by doing what you have just done.


Tim

Anonymous said...

Chris, I am not as eloquent as my brother in Christ just above. So let me put it in terms I know:

You wrote:

A clearer example of hubris, megalomania and conceit can hardly be imagined.

I respond to you:

A clearer example of an ungodly, moronic and agenda filled comment can hardly be imagined.

Bill said...

My grandpa used to tell me that "the hit dog yelps the loudest." There are some Baptist Identity people really yelling. I think they're being hit where it hurts.

Dr. Phil said...

Well, Chris "Let Me Help You Expand Your Vocubalary" Baptist Identity Munchkin

Your compound word for the day Click Here

Sorry, Pastor Burleson, I couldn't help myself. Adios, again!

Anonymous said...

Wade,

That was pretty funny. You tell me to get back to work, while you go play golf. :)

Anonymous Chris,

To compare what Wade has done in repeating a charge from an anonymous source (i.e. hearsay information that he has no firsthand knowledge of), to what preachers do each Sunday is one of the worst analogies I have ever read. If you do not know and cannot see the difference, I am sure I cannot help you to.

Anonymous said...

Guys, be nice. These Baptist Identity folks can't help themselves. If you keep blistering them they won't come back to reveal themselves for who they are. Be nice!!!! They are my entertainment!!!! We NEED them!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hal Brunson said...

I appreciate your pointing out PP's shenanigans, but I detect both misinformation and hostility with your use of the term "Landmark"; the original Landmarkers, Graves, Dayton, and Pendleton, despite their errant ecclesiology and eschatology were, to a man, Calvinistic; true, modern versions of Landmarkers are certainly more often Arminian, but that represents an aberration from the originals.

With regard to closed communion, the Strict and Particular Baptists of England practiced that long before J. R. Graves (that's why they were called "strict") because they saw restricted commmunion as (1) necessary to church discipline and (2) the only mode compatible with limited atonement, as did the majorty of early American Baptists; for proof, read Isaac Backus' A History of New England with Particular Reference to the Denomination of Christians Called Baptists. 2nd ed, with notes by David Weston. 2 vols. As Backus documents, the Baptist swerve to close and open communion corresponded with a trend toward Fullerism and Modified Calvinism (As Haldane rightly says, "Modified Calvinism is just refined Arminianism"; and Warfield is even bolder, Modified Calvinism is "bad," "untenable," "illogical,""aoblishes God," and "wounds Christianity at its very heart."

Frankly, I can't understand why a legitimate Calvinist would want to affiliate with the amalgamated mess that is the SBC unless to cause a good ruckus.

Jack The Baptist said...

Isn't it time to change the title of the BF&M 2000 to the PF&M (Patterson's Faith & Message) and be done with it?

greg.w.h said...

Chris wrote:

In his comment posted today at 11:46 A.M. Wade wrote that "Nobody controls my pen but God."

Really? A clearer example of hubris, megalomania and conceit can hardly be imagined.


Megalomania implies a grasp for institutional levers of control. Wade resigned the one position of de facto authority in the SBC that he held.

Hubris implies over-inflation of facts especially for the purpose of improving others opinion of one's self. Nothing that Wade has written in the past few days has garnered a better reputation with Baptist Identity folks (like yourself, if your blog title is indicative of your feelings on the subject.) So he either is tone deaf from a political stand point or he feels the issue being raised is important regardless of the political repercussions.

Conceit requires that the mental self-processing be so focused on the individual that he or she is essentially delusional about the actions of others. While I can't make the claim that every single thing that Wade has said has been proven beyond a shadow of doubt, the behavior of the people he stands up to strongly confirms the basic premises he has put forth.

Wade is making the claim that he does not take dictation from others when he claims that only God controls his public speech.

That is no different than any other pastor on the Southern Baptist Convention would claim about their Sunday sermons and unless they make a habit of plagiarism, it's consistent with the traditional Southern Baptist view on the priesthood of the believer.

Let me give you a hint on a real complaint against Wade: the way he states things too often results in him being the issue rather than the issues being the issue. And if I were to advise him on something to work on changing, it would be to develop a network of people who can raise issues like this so he isn't the only one raising them.

But that's what some of the commenters on his blog do. We attempt to provide a secondary perspective of the SBC that is entirely independent of his and based on our life experiences and provide an separate, independent analysis of the same things he comments on.

Perhaps you would like to join us, Chris, in attempting to stand on your own, apart from the Baptist Identity herd and offer your own insight of Wade's claims and how it would impact the SBC if they were true?

Greg Harvey

Anonymous said...

ROGER said,

"We are so busy being the older brother of the Prodigal son that we forget to look for our lost brother, love him and feast with him -because we have become so judgemental and consumed with our own inheritance. It is the reason our children - at the rate of around 90% want nothing to do with formal "church" after high school. They see through it all. We need to get busy being light and salt. I am sad to say that coming from a heritage of preachers and deacons I have come to the decision to phase out of "church" and focus on working at a local mission. "

WOW !

Maybe the 'local missions' ARE THE CHURCH, now that churches with pews have become bastions of 'the saved' socializing only with their 'own kind', huddled 'safe' from feared contamination of the evil outside world, having 'disfellowshipped' from other Christian communities, and the rest of world as 'the lost' or 'the unworthy'.

Yes, go out to those missions and rediscover what His Church is all about.
And take the words of Jesus to heart.
In bringing Him to the 'local missions', you will find HIM there already, where He always was, because He said: 'whatsoever you do to the least of these, you do also to Me.

Go where you will find Him.
And renew your faith. :)

P.S. Your heritage, coming from preachers and deacons, is alive and well and living in your desire to be a 'Christian' in a world that needs you. :)

Before the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, the Apostles hid and were afraid.
Then He came.
And they were no longer afraid to go out into a world filled with evil and violence and danger.

They were no longer afraid. L's

Bob Cleveland said...

Hal,

I'm a legitimate Calvinist, and I'm in the SBC. Because..

1) FBC Pelham is where God wants me.

2) SBC matters are highly interesting and I've been involved in some, in situations I cannot imagine I'd have been in, were I still RPCES or UPC or PCA.

3) The SBC is a barrel of fun. I wouldn't use that term on my Presbyterian experience.

4) God predestined it. :)

Anonymous said...

There are so many interesting comments, I can't remember the post.

Here are some thoughts, not in any order of importance:

1. Liberty is not a Landmark School to my knowledge. Hey, didn't the guys from DC Talk go there?

2. Linda (I think) had an interesting concept. What if all of the SBC insitutions became governed by self perpetuating boards today? People could still give to the CP to fund them, but the Convnetion would no longer elect the trustees. There would be no "control" issues anymore. Who's for that? Show of hands.

3. Linda also suggested having lots of small, diverse groups that really did agree with one another on theological issues, rather than one large body with a constant battle for supremacy of certain ideas over other ones. We could all split up and attend 2T4TG instead of the Convention. The churches could suppport the institutions they liked.

4. It is still bad form and presumptuous to use the term "liar." There are much better options (see comment on eariler post).

5. Does anyone suspect that Dr. Patterson's last statement, while possibly reflecting a view of the atonement, was really more of an emphasis of Dr. P's continued belief that SWBTS should reflect an evangelical imperative - much like Billy Graham and other famous SBC preachers - rather than a carefully, parsed statement indicating that 5pointers would be all be terminated? That's my read on it.

6. Does anyone have an explanation for how Dr. Mohler and Dr. P remain such good friends if Dr. P is so against 5 pointers?

7. And having said all of this is it possible that Dr. P is interested in the theolgoical positions of the faculty because that is normal for a seminary President, or for some use that is way short of terminations based on how many points a person believes?

8. I do not believe that Wade is lying. But I am having a hard time processing all of this because it is still so "half-formed" in my mind, and in light of the partial affirmations and partial denials.

9. We all need a class on hearsay. I will not conduct that class now because I am too busy. It is an interesting topic.

Louis

New BBC Open Forum said...

Rick said...

I did a little checking on my own. Apparently, using Blogger, is isn't possible to edit comments or edit time stamps. Here is what it says on blogger help:

It is not possible to edit comments. If you want to edit your own comment, you can simply delete it and then re-enter it with the changes. (However, the timestamp will be modified to reflect the time of the new comment.)

You're absolutely correct. Thank you for saying what I've been thinking for two days! I was just waiting to see if anyone picked up on that. ("Thy Peace" usually beats me to the draw.) Glad to see someone finally did. Blogger is not a very sophisticated system. Unless Wade is somehow able to hack into the Blogger system (and I seriously doubt that he can or would), he cannot alter the timestamp on a comment any more than you or I can. No one, including the blog administrator, can edit comments or "insert" them later. You can only delete them, and if you post using only a name/URL or anonymously, only the administrator can delete your comments.

Having said that, I think it would clear up a lot of confusion if Wade would change the time to CST/Enid time. That he can easily do. About the only places in North America where it's the time currently reflected in the comments right now are New Brunswick and Nova Scotia.

Chris said...

Joe White,

To the contrary, it is because I see a difference between the two that I raise my point. There is a legitimate difference, and yet both meet your definition as offered. That is a problem, I think.

And unless Wade is lying, he is not "repeating a charge from an anonymous source (i.e. hearsay information that he has no firsthand knowledge of)." Rather, he is aware of who the source is who did have firsthand information. Repeating eyewitness testimony is not hearsay. As for anonymous sources, don't forget that it is church tradition and not the texts of the Gospels that assign authorship.

In Christ,
Anonymous Chris

Calvin said...

Those of you wondering where Dr. Welty is can find him walking up and down Seminary Drive wearing a sandwich board reading "Christ Died For Your Sins."

Hal Brunson said...

Bob,

This is probably the last time I'll blog here; just dropped by because a fellow referred me to the string on SWBTS; however, I certainly don't regret it; what a joy to see someone come out of covenantalism to credobaptism rather than the more common opposite scenario. On a personal note, as a former covenantalist you should google my book, "The Rickety Bridge and the Broken Mirror: Two Parables of Paedobaptism and One Parable of the Death of Jesus Christ" - http://www.amazon.com/Rickety-Bridge-Broken-Mirror-Paedobaptism/dp/0595438164

God bless!

Chris said...

Anonymous Tim and others who responded to my last comment,

I don't wish Wade any harm. My wish is that he would reverse his course of action, especially his apparent embrace or at least tolerance of "evangelical" feminism within the SBC and elsewhere. But unfortunately it seems his fans like yourself view any disagreement with him as "wishing him harm." If you don't see any problem with someone writing "Nobody controls my pen but God" then I don't know what to say and I'm probably wasting my time. (If Wade had written that he is bound only by his conscience then that would have been unobjectionable. But one's pen or keyboard being guided by one's conscience and being controlled by God are not necessarily the same thing. Some people's conscience has been seared. Others have one that is overly sensitive.) The first thing that came to mind when I saw that sentence was G.A. Riplingers ridiculous KJV Only book "New Age Bible Versions." IIRC she said at one point G.A. stood for "God And Riplinger."

As I noted very early on in the thread, I agreed with Wade and the others who objected on the IMB baptism guideline. (BTW the popular view of "Once Saved Always Saved" that doesn't see a requirement for perseverance is arguably worse than Arminianism, at least from a practical standpoint. I believe in the Perseverance of the Saints, not OSAS. If that isn't enough to distinguish me from the "Anti Calvinists" and the "Baptist Identity herd" I don't know what is.) I was not a Baptist during the IMB controversy but was instead a member of a conservative Presbyterian denomination. But when Wade started posting again several months ago, I took strong objection when he started twisting the words of people like Courtney Tarter of CBMW and Dr. Thomas White and it became clear to me that he was operating from what are essentially "liberal" (for lack of a better term, or unbiblical if you wish) presuppositions on the gender issue. If he remains personally complementarian in the future, I will be pleasantly surprised.

I have no agenda other than to see Biblical truth embraced. At the present time I am a member of a Southern Baptist church and have only been a member for a few months. Otherwise I have no background in it other than being an observer from the outside for several years. I may be in the SBC now, but I'm certainly not of it. I would much prefer an independent Bible church, but ones that welcome those of a Calvinistic persuasion or just ones that don't preach easy believism aren't exactly on every corner. I do appreciate greatly the work of CBMW (which seems dominated by people from Southern Seminary these days) and have no interest in cooperating with feminists (evangelical or otherwise,) freemasons or the N.T. Wright and New Perspective on Paul fans that are coming out of the SBC seminaries who are shaky at best on justification. If that's an "agenda" then so be it.

My choice of the "Baptist Identity" blog title was somewhat unfortunate given its connotations. (I would identify more closely with Founders than with any other group or faction within Southern Baptist life, but since I am Premillenial, my perspective is unwelcome with many of the Founders people as well.) Many if not most of the BI guys would say that I haven't been validly baptized since my immersion took place in a Wesleyan church. The choice of the BI blog name had more to do with what it means to be Baptist today (an ongoing question obviously) as well as my identity as a Baptist or baptistic believer since I recently came around again to baptistic convictions after several years as a Presbyterian. See the lengthy refutation of Bob L. Ross (a hero to many of the BI guys for his attacks on what he calls "Hybrid Calvinism") on my blog which should be enough for any objective and knowledgeable observer to realize that I am not part of any "BI herd."

Chris said...

Dr. Brunson,

I came out of 3 year stint in covenantalism to credobaptism last Spring. I know several of your church members of the past and present from attending the Bentley camps, although I was not able to attend any of the ones at which you preached.

Hal Brunson said...

Hi, Chris, God bless you, and while I'm here and learning that you're pre-mil (no point of fellowship in our church), I recommend another book: "Who is Israel? What is a Jew? Where is Jerusalem?" http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b_0_13?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=who+is+israel+what+is+a+jew+where+is+jerusalem&sprefix=who+is+Israel

Hal Brunson said...

Chris,

By the way, your posts here are very well written, both in content and in spirit.

Wayne Smith said...

ALL,

I started Blogging when All these Crazy Bloggers were commenting about what was happening in the IMB of Trustees. I told Brother Wade Burleson that I could see His Heart. By this I mean Heart for Jesus Christ in all Things.
Dr Phil and others have mentioned some names in this Post. As these people started commenting and attacking Brother Wade I stated that I could not SEE Their Hearts. I use a lot of Scripture in my comments and because of that I have been Banned on these Blogs for the past year or so.
Wes Kenney
Tim Rogers
SBC TODAY
Peter Lumpkins

Openness

Wes Kenney’s Blog says this:
“ But in your hearts regard Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, having a good conscience. 1 Peter 3:15-16a (ESV) ”

Wes Kenney is the one who interviewed Dr Patterson and Shut Down Comment on SBC
TODAY, having a good conscience. 1 Peter 3:15-16a (ESV) “.

On SBC TODAY’S Blog you can see the TIMELINE of the closing of the comments by Wes Kenney. I have included the comment here, as Comments on SBC TODAY have a Habit of Disappearing.

Check the Time line

John 3:16
February 6th, 2009 at 12:16 am

I was so taken with the passionate interview with a man who was obviously tired when he gave this interview. That is, until I began to read the comment thread. Patterson is obviously committed to the gospel, to the churches, and to reaching the lost, as came out in the interview-we really heard from this man’s heart in a weak moment.
Unfortunately, these heartfelt thoughts are being shrouded over and lost because of the imposition of ideas that have come from another blog, a blog that has been making unsubstantiated claims. And now, the conversation has shifted to whether a Calvinist can say that Christ died for lost people. Even though some of the Calvinists themselves have objected to the idea that such passionate presentation of the gospel is perfectly compatible with Calvinism, the conversation continues and the unsubstantiated charges are subtly brought over from the other blog.
May I ask a favor from the editors of SBC Today? Would you please consider closing the comment stream in order to allow people to listen to Patterson directly without distracting (and what some might legitimately consider to be rumor-mongering) catcalls from the gallery? SBC Today is a reputable blog that does not need to become intertwined with less reputable blogs.
Thank you for considering my request.

Wes Kenney Reply:
February 6th, 2009 at 12:17 am
Granted.

Comments Closed

Wayne Smith

Wayne Smith said...

Wade,

I can still see your Heart, I just don’t Believe that Women should be Ordained as Pastors. I believe Women can Teach all Men a thing or Two in or out of Church. Ouch, My Wife made Me say That.

Wayne

Anonymous said...

". . . people who wear crowns and who claim to foster justice by the swords are not as strong as they think... It is that people who bear crosses are working with the grain of the universe. One does not come to that belief by winning some of one’s battles for the control of one’s own corner of the fallen world. One comes to it by sharing the life of those who sing about the Resurrection of the slain Lamb."

~John Howard Yoder

Robert said...

John Howard Yoder is an evangelical?

Robert said...

Correction...Are John Howard Yoder's writings evengelical in nature?

BTW-can one not argue that this is the direction of anabaptism.

Anonymous said...

Yoder was a Mennonite. He has passed away. There is a connection to the Anabaptists through his Mennonite faith.

Anonymous said...

From what I can gather in Yoder's work is a call to 'imitate' Christ completely, not just in the ways in which we are 'comfortable' and those around us are 'comfortable'.

Yoder advocates imitating Christ in all of our contacts with the world, without 'holding back' so that our Christianity informs every decision we make and every action we take in ALL areas of life.

Robert said...

Anonymous,
That is not a distinctive of Yoder.
How it is applied is the crux of the matter.
I would argue that most Southern Baptist do not believe in Pacifism today!
Another way to put it is to say that we Southern Baptist are more Augustinian in our understanding of those principles.

How this applies to this comment thread is that Paige almost always identifies with the Anabaptist roots ...yet he wont go down this understanding of what it means to be AnaBaptist.

Anonymous said...

Perhaps Yoder sees great power in Christ. My take on what I did read is that Yoder felt the greater we imitate Christ in all we do, the greater our impact on our world will be.

Yoder, surprisingly, does not see Christ as weak. Oh no, Yoder is seeing a power in Him that increases our own strength beyond what we can do without Him.

Yoder's works are very extensive.
I have only read a little, and I thought the quote was apropo the current squabbling and scrambling of the Pattersonians for control over the SBC and the elimination of anyone who fails to conform to 'their' image.

They lost focus.

Anonymous said...

Paige Patterson ?
Associating himself with the Anabaptists, from whom we now have the Mennonites and the Amish?

How can this destructive man begin to compare himself with such people?

The Mennonite and Amish communities are not harmful to others. They are not a prideful people. They live simply and peacefully. For this, many have persecuted them.

There is NO comparison of PP of Pecan Manor to these genttle Christians.

Please.

Anonymous said...

Robert, you don't have to tell me that Baptists are not pacifists.
The way they have organized a circular firing squad with Dr. Klouda and all those missionaries in the middle, NO ONE will think of the current SBC as an instrument of God's Peace.

No. The spiritual violence is horrible to behold. Many martyrs done in by 'not-so-friendly' fire. Very sad.

Wayne Smith said...

IT IS OVIOUS WES KENNEY IS HIDING UNDER THE JOHN 3:16 NAME.

Anonymous said...

So the 'preacher boys' have shut down their comments and gone into hiding ? What's up ?

So glad to catch PP out on that interview. 'bout time.

Anonymous said...

notice how they act in sync,
like they're taking orders.

Anonymous said...

Robert,

You said something about what the "Bible teaches on any given doctrine".

Don't you have it backwards? Doctrine is an interpretation of Scripture, and it teaches what our particular notion is regarding what we think Scripture is saying.

DLP

WatchingHISstory said...

Wade

thank you for deleting NASS' comments about me.

Charles

Robert said...

DLP,
Not sure where you are going with that but I dont think so at first blush.
I maybe wrong.

Soteriology is the doctrine but out of that comes Calvinism and Arminianism.
One is Biblical(Calvinism) and one is not (Arminianism).

Iam open to correction.

oc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
oc said...

Charles,
I believe that little transaction between you two has already been completed and acknowleged, so further "kissy" is both sickening and probably unnecessary, maybe even unwanted by said recipient. Don't slobber.

oc.

oc said...

"Soteriology is the doctrine but out of that comes Calvinism and Arminianism.
One is Biblical(Calvinism) and one is not (Arminianism).

Iam open to correction."




Are you really open to correction? I could suggest that if you are so confident in your system of soteriology, then maybe you aren't humble enough to actually accept God's sovereignty.
Unless you don't believe that there are things God knows that men don't.

oc.

WatchingHISstory said...

oc

I am not slobering I am drooling!

WatchingHISstory said...

oc

WHAT!!???

oc said...

Charles,
Well, that little statement you made should make Wade real comfortable.

In the meanwhile, for the rest of us who just have to watch the spectacle, keep your drool on your own bib.

oc.

Lin said...

"Patterson is obviously committed to the gospel, to the churches, and to reaching the lost, as came out in the interview-we really heard from this man’s heart in a weak moment."

It does get a bit tiring to see this over and over. After all, this is his job and he is well paid for it. But what has been the real fruit of it over the last 30 years?

But even more instructive is to realize how scripture focues on behavior. While we are all debating doctrine, intentions and motives...check this out...scripture that refers to BEHAVIORS of leaders.


We should be very concerned with behavior:

Dr Paul Martin of Wellspring Christian Center:

Of the 210 verses that refer to false prophets, priests, elders and Pharisees, here is a summary of their content:

•99 verses (47%) concern Behavior
•66 verses (31%) concern Fruit
•24 verses (13%) concern Motives
•21 verses (10%) concern Doctrine

It is interesting that most Christians who deal with apologetics, false teachers and Bible-based cults are most concerned with doctrine only.

But doctrine represents only a small portion of what Bible speaks about concerning false teachers, essentially only 23% of what the Bible points out as problematic.

According to the Scriptures, we should be very concerned with both the behaviors and the fruit of spiritual leadership in the church and in parachurch organizations.

This is not gossip or mean-spirited criticism but what Scripture actually teaches us to observe.

A question to ask if they are a real leader is do they resemble Matthew 5?

oc said...

Oh no Lin! Please don't say that!

:)

No fair looking at Matthew 5.
Nor 6 and 7, the Sermon on the Mount. Those aren't doctrinal passages we like to exegete like Romans and such! Please no! No fair discerning cheap grace vs. the real cost of discipleship. Instead, let's all just instruct others and pontificate without the prerequisite qualities needed.
Experts everywhere. Let's just all go on Maury!

Lin, you are so very right.
Thanks for that much needed and sober Beattitudinal moment.

oc.

WatchingHISstory said...

oc

you don't hold out any hope that I maybe a good guy, well relative so?

You sound as though you will be relieved to find I am the person NASS believes I am.

Charles

Anonymous said...

Matthew Chapter 5


5:1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:

5:2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

5:3 Blessed [are] the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

5:4 Blessed [are] they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

5:5 Blessed [are] the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

5:6 Blessed [are] they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

5:7 Blessed [are] the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

5:8 Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

5:9 Blessed [are] the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

5:10 Blessed [are] they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great [is] your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

5:15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. [article]

5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not [that] thy whole body should be cast into hell.

5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast [it] from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not [that] thy whole body should be cast into hell.

5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:

5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

5:35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

5:36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have [thy] cloke also.

5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so?

5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your

Anonymous said...

5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

WatchingHISstory said...

sounds like the liberal Christ vs Paul argument!

Wayne Smith said...

WADE and All,
To prove this look at my Comment at Fri Feb 06, 03:02:00 PM 2009 above.

OBVIOUS
The TIMELINE HAS NOW BEEN CHANGED BY WES KENNEY ON SBC TODAY. FROM 12:16 TO 11:16

John 3:16
February 5th, 2009 at 11:16 pm
I was so taken with the passionate interview with a man who was obviously tired when he gave this interview. That is, until I began to read the comment thread. Patterson is obviously committed to the gospel, to the churches, and to reaching the lost, as came out in the interview-we really heard from this man’s heart in a weak moment.
Wes Kenney Reply:
February 6th, 2009 at 12:17 am
Granted.
Then Wes Kenney closed the Comment on the Blog.

SO WHO ARE THE ONES TELLING THE TRUTH!!!

Wayne

Anonymous said...

WOW.

PP was caught out.
Wes is caught out.

And they both did it to themselves.

Who's next ??????

WatchingHISstory said...

Did anyone listen to John MacArthur today? He discussed the church growth movement and the current church of the tares.

Anonymous said...

Wayne, Give it up. Patterson has a career of half truths and obfuscation with his Boss Hogg/ Tom Sawyer demeanor.

Too many here have seen it first hand. Too many here have braved the last 20 years following Patterson on his roller coaster ride with extravagance, nepotism and grandstanding within the SBC.

You guys tried to prove Wade as deceitful over the IMB and Klouda and it did not work. Instead of looking at content, which you all NEVER do, you all try and get everyone's focus off on technicalities (That even you do not understand)

That is the way Patterson has kept his 'jobs' over the years. Divert attention from himself after his many blunders and grandstanding.

The time stamps were explained by BBC who is blogger extrordinare.

At this point, you are crying wolf. And why worry? The trustees at SWBTS will cover his back...if they can keep the money rolling in to pay for the pastry chef with the tithes of little old ladies on fixed incomes.

Lydia

Wanda said...

Kevin M. Crowder said...
"Greetings in the name of our Sovereign King,

I am skipping on cloud 9 today. :) I received a called from my admissions rep. at Covenant Seminary in St. Louis and the first words out of his mouth were "congratulations!" :)"

Congratulations Kevin!

I'm very proud of you. I know you can't wait to get started at Covenant Seminary. Please keep us posted on how things are going.

Best wishes CM!!! (inside joke between Kevin an me) I didn't want to embarrass you Kevin by spelling it out. I'm praying you will find your future wife in seminary. Seriously, I really am! Take care.

Blessings,

Wanda

Truth Shall Set You Free said...

Lest anyone doubt Wayne's accounts of the magically changing times on the "non-tabloid" blog, when I checked out his original post I took a look at SBCtoday I found the posts as he described.

And yep, the post that originally appeared at 12:16AM asking that comments be closed (one minute before Wes replied "Granted" at 12:17AM)now reads 11:16PM.

Wayne Smith said...

Lydia,

Read these comments and see who those are that are attacking Wade. I believe you are misreading these comments.

Wayne

Anonymous said...

WAYNE, it's there all right.
Wes changed it. He's been caught out.

Is he a minister ?

Byroniac said...

I have seen that as well on the SBC Today blog. It seems funny to me that when the conversation did not go the way they wanted it to and the naysayers (such as myself) remained unconvinced, the reaction was to shut down all the comment threads and then act like the issue does not exist. What gives?

New BBC Open Forum said...

Good observation, guys. Unlike Blogger where the only option for "editing" comments is to delete them, apparently the administrator of a Wordpress-powered blog (let's say, oh... for example, SBC Today) can change the timestamps on comments. In fact, he can change the content of anyone's comment. That's a scary thought!

See a discussion here.

Anonymous said...

Wes Kenney is serving in his first pastorate in a small, rural church in southeastern Oklahoma.

Byroniac said...

I am very fortunate to have subscribed by email to the comments at SBC Today. The time difference between John 3:16's comment (2nd from last) and Wes Kenney's granting the request was only one minute. And I have that in my email records.

So, Wes Kenney, what's up??!?!

Anonymous said...

Well.

At least now we know for sure.
Isn't it strange how the truth finds a way to be known. :)

If they have shut everything down and are sticking their heads in the sand, after all the mud-slinging at Wade, it sounds a little like what they did to Wade after Dr. Klouda's trouble.

Wade tried to see PP and tried repeatedly to contact him, requesting a return call. He was trying to act on Dr. Klouda's behalf.

PP ignored Wade.

Somethings don't change, I guess.

Thank God Wade stays strong.
There are some professors' families tonight that may have been spared the trauma of an unemployed father and husband during these tough times.

I hope these innocents remain protected from the wrath of PP.
We shall see.

How much longer must we wait, Lord?

New BBC Open Forum said...

Missing time...

A cover up...

Denials...

Could it be... Bloggate?

oc said...

Kinda like a war movie...
Someone thought they heard a threatening noise in the night.
So self-proclaimed heroes boldly took a shot in the dark.

But since it was dark, they didn't realize that they mistakenly took a shot at a bogey man and used merely a flare gun, which of course exposed them.

Now they are all hunkering down, trembling in the bunker, fearing the incoming.

oc.

Byroniac said...

As a point of fact, John 3:16's timestamp is "Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 22:16:25 -0700" and Wes Kenney's is "Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 22:17:15 -0700"

I was mistaken. It was actually less than a minute. But someone has some explainin' to do. ;)

Anonymous said...

Good analogies.
You guys are great writers.

Anonymous said...

OMG !

Charles Page said...

I believe they are blind!

Wayne Smith said...

I believe it was Wes Kenney that coined the phrase LIAR, LIAR PANTS ON FIRE ABOUT 3 YEARS AGO on these Blogs..

Wayne

Byroniac said...

I have posted the message source of both comments sent via email to my blog at byroniac.blogspot.com (which I am not intending to plug, as it is currently a defunct blog).

oc said...

I like your analogy better NBBCOF,
because it's not noble enough to be war.

It's like you say, it's slimy and more Nixonesque.

oc.

Anonymous said...

Wayne, went back and read again. If I misread you, please accept my apology. You must not be crying wolf but instead: foul!

BBC: Bloggate :o)


Lydia

Anonymous said...

PP and his boys would be funny if they hadn't caused so much misery to so many innocent people.

And the strangest thing of all is that they blamed all their shenanigans on Christ ! Sayin' that they did it for the good of His Church. Yeah, they bragged about it.

Blasphemy.

This road show has been in town too long.

Anonymous said...

Thanks to all for the congrats!

While I support the Cooperative Program of the SBC as a near divine institution, I feel that I must provide each of you an opportunity to redirect some of those dollars to support my theological education at a PCA Seminary. Support SBC Seminarians' rights to choose their own seminary. Support quality reformed biblical training.

You can support this cause in one of 5 ways. 50.00 a month will qualify you for the One-Pointer Club, 100/mnth--the 2pter club and so forth...I am certain that most of you will chose to be a blessing at the "Full-Calvin-Funding-Club" of 250.00 per month. May the Lord guide your pen as you write that check.

FCFC members will not be guaranteed a 100-fold blessing, but you will get a folded copy of my diploma. (The more you give the quicker I can finish.) You will also receive a T-Shirt that says: "I gave 250.00/ month and all I got was this lousy T-Shirt."


:)


PS to Wanda, who or what is CM??? You lost me there.

Anonymous said...

Proverbs 6:16-19

These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

A proud look,

a lying tongue,

and hands that shed innocent blood,

An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations,

feet that be swift in running to mischief,

A false witness that speaketh lies,

and he that soweth discord among brethren.

WatchingHISstory said...

My wife and i are going to Branson, Mo for thwe weekend. we have never been so what are the
hotspots?

Dr. Phil said...

Byroniac - New BBC Forum - Wayne

I promised Pastor Burleson after this morning that if I came back I would try to be better. But you guys are making it hard. You have raised my blood pressure - dramatically. After my rebuke by Pastor Burleson for taking Wes Kidney and others to task in my comments. I go to the office with my tail between my legs and think all day about Pastor Burleson's taking me to task. I think to myself, maybe I am wrong. Maybe Wes Kidney and his Baptist Identity kin are not really ______ (fill in the blank).

But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO . . .

You guys have proof that at least Pastor Kidney is worse. He is a %@^#& hypocrite. He accused Pastor Burleson of lying, not once, not twice but multiple times yesterday, including accusing Pastor Burleson of CHANGING TIME STAMPS - which has been proven by you guys as immpossible. Yet you Byron, HAVE PROOF KIDNEY HIMSELF HAS CHANGED THE TIME STAMP to help people not see that he is posing as some dude named "John 3:16."

Folks, go back and read the comment section pertaining to the Paige Patterson interview! The comment section is now closed, but LOOK AT THE THE LAST TWO COMMENTS.

They were at one time one minute apart - I SAW IT WITH MY OWN EYES.
But, it seems like Pastor Kidney has changed the time stamp.

Wayne, you are dead on!!! Wes posed as John 3:16 and then commented one minute later, answering himself. Now he is trying to cover it up.

Wayne, you are DA MAN. Byroniac, you have PROOF that the time stamp has changed.. BBC Forum, you ain't scared of nobody, as you have proven. Keep hammering the hypocrite. I'm serious. Because if you don't, I am going to come back and get myself permanently kicked off for filling in the blanks myself.

This stunt by PASTOR WES KIDNEY is unbelievable!!!!!!!!!!

Dr. Phil

Wayne Smith said...

The sad part about all of this is the name calling against a Brother in Christ and the comments by Pastors of the Blog SBC TODAY. Wade shared that He was praying for Tim Rogers and Tim fired back some Smart Comment that is totally out of line for someone who Professed to be a Christian, let alone a Pastor in a NC Church.

Wayne

Anonymous said...

Crowder,

Wanda and I will start looking for a complimentarian/presbyterian type heiress for you.

Lydia

Elisabeth said...

Wanda, Kevin

CM Ha ha ha ha ha! :-D

Anonymous said...

Lydia,

Does that mean I will need to rebaptize her before I marry her?

:)

New BBC Open Forum said...

"I believe it was Wes Kenney that coined the phrase LIAR, LIAR PANTS ON FIRE ABOUT 3 YEARS AGO on these Blogs."

Then the right reverend's ankles must be getting a little warm right about now -- because, embarrassingly, that's where his pants are.

Wayne Smith said...

Dr Phil,

I have been chasing for the truth on these matter for 3 years or so. All of the Above Banned me from their Blogs because they Don’t want to Know the Truth. Sad that they are Pastor and Professing Christians.

Wayne

New BBC Open Forum said...

Dr. Phil said...

"After my rebuke by Pastor Burleson for taking Wes Kidney and others to task in my comments. I go to the office with my tail between my legs and think all day about Pastor Burleson's taking me to task."

Would that be your vestigial tail?

New BBC Open Forum said...

KMC said...

"Does that mean I will need to rebaptize her before I marry her?"

No, but you'll have to baptize all your babies.

Anonymous said...

"The liar's punishment
is not in the least
that he is not believed,

but that
he cannot believe anyone else.

George Bernard Shaw

Sam said...

Dr. Phil,

Thanks for toning it down. I cringed when I saw your name and read the first few sentences and saw your subject matter.

Many of us have had our eyes opened these last couple of days. I too was greatly disturbed by Scott Gordon, Wes Kenney, Tim Guthrie, Bart Barber, Peter Lumpkins and a handful of others blasting Rev. Burleson with, what I believe to be, highly inappropiate comments.

However, readers of this blog are now pointing out how they have found it is impossible for Rev. Burleson to practice "deceit" with blogger comments "time stamps," as Wes accused. I new this before Rev. Burleson's wife came on and graciously corrected Wes, and asked that he not call her husband a liar because she was with him when he received the email from the pastor in the Frisco Association and saw her husband type the comment that Wes said was "faked."

Now, these same readers of this blog have uncovered that it is actually Wes who is the one who has practiced deceit. He has called Rev. Burleson a liar, but he has done himself what he has accused Rev. Burleson of doing.

What is interesting to me is that Rev. Burleson has not once come back and attacked the character of those who attacked him. Rather, as you yourself know, he has rebuked those who have taken them to task with harsh words.

Don't mess this up. Let me encourage you to keep your keyboard silent. Follow Rev. Burleson's example. The truth has a way of rising to the surface.

Annie Sue said...

The liar's punishment
is not in the least
that he is not believed,
but that
he cannot believe anyone else.


That comment by George Bernard Shaw is profoud, particularly in light of these last three days.

Thy Peace said...

"Would that be your vestigial tail?"

That would be Dr. Loney!

Timothy said...

The revelations of this comment section are jaw dropping.

I think I am going to be sick.

New BBC Open Forum said...

I might suggest that those of you who've commented on some of these guys' Wordpress blogs go back and not only check to see if any of your comments have been deleted (which you've mentioned happening before) but check to see if any of your remaining comments have been "edited."

Think about the implications of this, folks. Say Wade makes a comment on one of those blogs, and the administrator later "edits" Wade's comment to say something Wade didn't say. Then he can come back and say, "Well, Wade said it. There it is right there in black and white." Anyone out there still naive enough to think that can't be the next step? Today timestamps; tomorrow you find out you wrote something you didn't.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Thy Peace,

Exactly what I've been thinking for several days now. Or maybe it's his uncle (or cousin or brother, I forget which), Phel Loney.

Anonymous said...

Those guys wove a web to catch Wade and one of them really got tangled up in it.

Since they worked 'as a group', they are all discredited.

What a mess.

At least no one will take them seriously anymore. These guys are looking pretty bad.

PP will have to train a whole new set of toadies. More trouble !

Jim Turp said...

"Those guys wove a web to catch Wade and one of them really got tangled up in it."

A good turn of phrase to describe the events of the last three days.

I am dumbfounded.

If I were Pastor Wade I would blow a gasket. But for some reason, I don't think he will. I think he may actually be smiling. People wonder about his credibility? Not anymore.

These BI guys who have sought to destroy him have only helped him.

Native Arkansan said...

Dang! This just made my day. One a Boss Hogg's little minyons gets caught with his britches down around his ankles...an' on far ta boot. Hahaha! I'm laffin' so hard my belly's shakin'. Don't get no idears Wade!

New BBC Open Forum said...

I think Phel is Dr. Loney's uncle.

Thy Peace said...

I am not imputing anything here. I have looked at the source code of all the posts on the front page of sbctoday.com and byroniac's post too. I found some thing odd.

Comment-8231 February 5th, 2009 at 11:05 pm
The above link is for comment-8196, but the last embedded comment is Comment-8231.

Comment-8232 is missing.

Comment-8233 February 5th, 2009 at 11:16 pm
Byroniac's Email Date Stamp: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 22:16:25 -0700

Comment-8234 February 6th, 2009 at 12:17 am
Check the above link and go to the last embedded comment to get to Comment-8234.
Byroniac's Email Date Stamp: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 22:17:15 -0700

Comment-8235 February 6th, 2009 at 7:27 am

---------------------------------------

The odd thing is, Comment-8232 is missing. And the time/date on Comment-8233 has been changed (this from Byroniac's post)

WatchingHISstory said...

so does this mean Arminians are wrong and Calvinist are right?

Don't tell me women will be pastors now in the SBC!

Anonymous said...

Lydia,

Does that mean I will need to rebaptize her before I marry her?

:)

Crowder, YOU were the one that mentioned quasi presbyterian leanings. I was not going to waste my time looking for an SBC dispensational/comp hieress.

Maybe there are some possiblities in the SWBTS Homemakers program for you? :o)

Lydia

(Just stay away from e=Harmony)

Anonymous said...

Think about the implications of this, folks. Say Wade makes a comment on one of those blogs, and the administrator later "edits" Wade's comment to say something Wade didn't say. Then he can come back and say, "Well, Wade said it. There it is right there in black and white." Anyone out there still naive enough to think that can't be the next step? Today timestamps; tomorrow you find out you wrote something you didn't.

Fri Feb 06, 10:22:00 PM 2009

Wade, this is a good point. Something for you to consider when you comment on certain wordpress blogs. Now that we know timestamps can and will be altered on this blog, it might be wise not to comment there since they can edit comments, too.

Lydia

Thy Peace, Thanks for that information. And I also want to thank you for all the research and information you provide here.

You have been horribly blasted on this and on other blogs as a liar and even a Pharisee. I just cannot figure it out because I have read a lot of your comments out there in blogland and do not see this about you at all. I see someone who searches for truth and provides information.

You are also so very gracious when attacked and do not respond in kind. I am learning a lot from your example.

(I am a slow learner :o)

Lydia

Anonymous said...

Hi THY PEACE,

They were back-pedaling.
I guess they thought that 'the sheep' were too stupid to catch what they were doing.

Pride-filled people often underestimate the worth of others and this time, they were wrong big-time.

Between Wes getting caught out.
And this new evidence.
And Kevin being accepted at Covenant Seminary.
And all the girls planning to get Kevin a wife. (His bachelor days are numbered.)
And some professors' jobs made safer,

I'd say it hasn't been such a bad week after all. :)

God is good.

Anonymous said...

Can you imagine Wes repenting and asking Wade's forgiveness?
Actually, I bet Wade has already forgiven him. And Wade is probably praying for him.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Lydia,

I wondered about that, too. And I echo your sentiments. Someone alerted me to this exchange on another blog the other day...

Debbie, sister in Christ, you are on the right track.

Thy Peace
January 28, 2009


Thy Peace,

Why are you not over at the Baptist watchdog blogs attacking Steve Gains or Mac Brunson and running down Southern Baptists in general as is your custom?

Or why are you not over at Wade’s place agitating the weak and uninformed?

You are a whited wall, an open grave and a serpent. You are a busy-body who would travel the sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, you make him twofold more the child of hell that yourself.

You pretend to have a form of godliness, but deny the source of true godliness.

You perfectly fit the bill in 2 Timothy 3:1-9.

cb


cb scott
January 28, 2009


Wow. Ouch! :-0 That was totally uncalled for. The person who alerted me to it stated, "If he is a Christian... I'm not! He is eaten up with rage!" And just so I'm clear, this person was NOT referring to "Thy Peace"!

Native Arkansan said...

Can you imagine Wes repenting and asking Wade's forgiveness?

I'm tryin'...but nope. Can't really.

Robert said...

Hey Byroniac,
Just a word of caution about putting peoples IP address on a public blog.
I would urge you to comment those out.
My understanding is that it is actually illegal!

Did you ever get VirtualBox running....are you running Ubuntu as the host or guest?

Robert I Masters
From the Southern Baptist Geneva

Thy Peace said...

I have known for a while now, that wordpress blog's comments contents can be altered by the blog's administrator.

WatchingHISstory said...

Native Arkansan
Can you imagine NASS repenting and asking me for forgiveness?

I'm tryin'...but nope. Can't really.

Charles

New BBC Open Forum said...

Thy Peace,

Really? I'm shocked. ;-)

oc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

CB Scott said 'that' about THY PEACE ?

No way could he have ever had grounds to say those things.
This CB is a strange dude for sure. Where does he get all his poison ?

New BBC Open Forum said...

Anon 11:24,

See the comment stream.

Anonymous said...

ADVICE for the little it's worth

Wes, you need to start living from the inside of yourself outward, so that all your actions and words and deeds are unified.

Anonymous said...

Dear THY PEACE,

There is not a person here who has read your contributions who would not sickened by what CB Scott wrote.

Please know that I admire your work here and I have learned so much from your writings and from the sites you provide us.

I have read some of CB's comments to others that were extremely abrasive. I think he must have a lot of contempt for others, which is sad.

You remind me of a 'protestant Benedictine' which I can't quite explain, but you are peaceful in that quiet way.

CB reveals so much about himself in his attack on you. And what he has revealed about himself gives cause for concern for him. I think he is troubled.

Dominus vobiscum,
L's

Anonymous said...

Sometimes people in trouble lash out at those they trust not to hurt them back.

Wade Burleson said...

To All:

I've been gone all day, and have just returned home from the church offices after a profitable (and windy) day of golf and visitation. I must say I am surprised at the revelations I've read in this comment section.

Before I comment myself on the issue, I wanted to see what is being discussed. Unfortunately, the server from Emmanuel Baptist Church has been blocked by SBC Today. There is a statement that comes up saying that the ISP for this server is forbidden access to the website. I have also now discovered that my home ISP server is also blocked. I no longer have access to read, nor can I comment on, SBC Today.

With the help of friends, I have been able to access SBC Today from another server late tonight and have been able to see the change that was made for myself. It is a tad frustrating that the comment sections on Wes's site has been closed to all others, not to mention the fact I am blocked. I decided that I would call Wes Kenney myself to ask him about this issue. Unfortunately, his number is not listed on MSN white pages.

I wanted to visit with Wes directly to see if he was the person identifying himself as "John 3;16" and if he typed the comment that requested the comment section at SBC Today be shut down. As has been revealed by Byroniac, less than 45 seconds Wes answered "John 3:16"'s request to shut down his blog comment section with the one word comment - "Granted."

I did notice earlier this morning someone pointed out the closeness in time of the two comments at SBC Today, but thought little of it. However, now that Byroniac has pointed out that the time stamp on Wes's comment has been changed, I am frankly confused. A couple of days ago, Wes Kenney accused me of changing the time stamp on one of my comments on my own blog, and when I told him I didn't, he suggested that I was being deceitful (some might say he used a little stronger word). I have since found out it is impossible to change time stamps on Blogger.com. His allegaton against my character led my wife to post her first comment on my blog in over two years! (She's blushing as I write). She didn't take too kindly to her husband being called a liar.

Anyway, I am honestly confused. But before I make a judgment on what Wes did, or did not do, I would like to speak to Wes personally.

The thing that bothers me most is what "John 3:16" said in the last comment as justification for his request to "shut down" the comment section at SBC Outpost. John 3:16, whoever he is, wrote:

"May I ask a favor from the editors of SBC Today? Would you please consider closing the comment stream in order to allow people to listen to Patterson directly without distracting (and what some might legitimately consider to be rumor-mongering) catcalls from the gallery? SBC Today is a reputable blog that does not need to become intertwined with less reputable blogs.

Thank you for considering my request."


45 seconds later, Wes Kenney answered the above request with one word, "Granted."

What bothers me is the seemingly intentional denigration of this blog by SBC Today. Whoever John 3:16 is, it seems he has an agenda.
So, until I talk to Wes Kenney, I choose not to assume he is John 3:16. I will ask him directly.

Allow me, however, to express my extraordinary frustration with those blogs that have placed my name in the title of a post, and have called me a "Liberal" or a "Liar" or a "Wild-Eyed Liberal" etc . . . only to later shut down the comment section (as has happened on four blogs), and then in one case, bar my ISP server from being able to read or comment.

I confess frustration tonight.

I am, however, praying for Bart, Wes, Tim, Scott, Peter and others. I am hopeful that there will be a softening in their hearts and the ability to see that one can disagree and still respect a person. One can voice dissent without being ugly. A Christian, above anyone else, should be able to say what needs to be said, and keep the lines of communication open, in Christian love.

For an excellent blog post about good theology and even better Christian relationships, I would encourage you to read my father's post today at VTM Bottomline

In His Grace,


Wade Burleson

WatchingHISstory said...

[Every textual reference I read that says "Jesus died for you" is said to people AFTER they have experienced His grace.]

Amen, Bro. Paul!

Anonymous said...

Right now, I wonder if everyone is thinking the same thing:
is John 3:16 you-know-who giving orders to the troops ?

I'm almost ashamed at how quickly that thought popped into my head.
I wonder why ?

Thy Peace said...

Pastor Wade said ... "There is a statement that comes up saying that the ISP for this server is forbidden access to the website. I have also now discovered that my home ISP server is also blocked. I no longer have access to read, nor can I comment on, SBC Today."

Pastor Wade, unless you have a static IP Address assigned by your ISP, you can change your IP address by power cycling your dsl modem (I do not know how it works for cable modem ... my guess is it may not be dynamic as in a dsl modem). So you will get a new IP address.

And if SBC Today is blocking you, they are only going by the IP address.

Just a thought. I am sure you thought of this and tried this too.

Sarah said...

Pastor Burleson,

Thanks for your grace and civility. Your kindness to those who avow you an enemy is inspiring.

Dr. Phil said...

Thy Peace - I feel called by Almighty God to be the Chief Psychiatrist to those damaged by the highly dysfunctional blowhards called Baptist Identity idiots. I am officially changing their name to the Baptist Movement, henceforth called the "BM people." My angst is precipitated by the following comment by a BM, which I have just read with my own eyes, a comment that flowed smoother than a banana BM from the mind of the man I shall forever refer to as "CB Snott" until he apologizes.

Mr. Snott dripped the following on you one week ago, January 28, 2009:

You are a whited wall, an open grave and a serpent. You are a busy-body who would travel the sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, you make him twofold more the child of hell that yourself.

You pretend to have a form of godliness, but deny the source of true godliness.


Thy Peace, I have captured Mr. Snott. Click on my name to see a polaroid of this blowhard. Mr. Snott has 24 hours to seek your forgiveness or I will blow his nose and he has the very real possiblity of losing his brain when the buger comes out in the handkerchief.

Dr. Phil

Anonymous said...

I am laughing my head off.

Byroniac said...

Listen, I don't know that Wes Kenney is lying. Perhaps his blog was hacked. It also looks like the timestamp has changed again. I went out to a movie, and before I left it said, "February 6th, 2009 at 12:17 am" and now (as of this writing) it says, "February 6th, 2009 at 9:17 am". Who knows? It might change again before you look at it to see for yourself.

Robert, thank you for the warning. As I am unwilling at this time to edit the information, and truthfully, I didn't know what all it contained, I have unpublished it. As for VirtualBox, I am able to run it with Ubuntu as host and Vista as guest, but if I run it under Vista, with a Vista as guest, it crashes due to a memory page fault. In Ubuntu Linux it's rock solid (I'm guessing I hosed something in Vista by accident).

Stephen said...

The Baptist Identity folks are really showing their colors.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Hi, Dr. Loney! If there was any doubt before, there's not now!

WatchingHISstory said...

Christianity has been dumbed down!

The door is wide open to all behavior! As the famous Arminian was given to say "come to Jesus!"

Call everyone the elect!

I'm going to Branson early in the morning, ya'll miss me, especially after tonite. I'm the only civil one left standing! Ha!

Your good friend, maybe your only friend.
Charles

Word verification 'twitod'

Anonymous said...

"Perhaps his blog was hacked"

Byroniac, are you sure you didn't work for the Nixon administration?

Anonymous said...

Sometimes people are too clever for their own good. Instead of changing the time stamp on John 3:16's comment, why didn't Wes delete his "granted" followup and repost it? That would have served the same purpose, spreading out the time between the two posts.

At any rate all I can do is shake my head and say Wes, Wes, Wes.

Curtis said...

Byroniac,

The culprit is caught. If I were he I would now change the time stamp a thousand times to try to cover my rear. Don't anyone be fooled.

Nothing changes a time stamp but the administrator of the blog who enters into the tool box and changes the time. Wes must be every dang shade of purple tonight.

Where's Volfann? Where's Scott? Where's all the BI people?

Crickets. Crickets. Crickets.

Anonymous said...

Oh, never mind. Looks like Wes went ahead and did it.

Anonymous said...

Where's Volfann? Where's Scott? Where's all the BI people?

All down on the mat. Ding, ding, ding! OHHHhhhhh...

Thy Peace said...

Byroniac said ... " ... Perhaps his blog was hacked. ... "

The times have indeed changed again.

At this point, my instinct is to say Byroniac is correct. It does look like some one has access to this blog site and is messing with it.

But then, why block Pastor Wade's IP address from accessing the site?

But then, what about the missing Comment-8232?

Or are they changing it, after they have read the comments on this post, pointing out the discrepancies of their post comments date stamps and comment numbering missing element?

Some thing is not right here.

Wade Burleson said...

Dr. Phil,

Please.

I too am offended at what one of our brothers in Christ wrote to Thy Peace. I just saw it tonight.
It is far better to confront our brother in Christ about his harsh words than to be sarcastic in response. I will talk with him as soon as possible.

Byroniac, could you give me a plausible reason why the time stamp changes at a Word Press blog other than the administrator intentionally changing it?

Good night to all. I am beat.

Blessings,

Wade

Byroniac said...

Anonymous 12:33 AM,

Yes, I'm sure I didn't (not old enough), though I don't follow you.

Being the sick, twisted person I am, the thought has occurred to me that someone who knows the timestamp vulnerabilities of Wordpress and has a vendetta against Wes Kenney could have hacked his blog and changed the timestamp, knowing someone would catch it, and use that aftermath of accusation to teach him a lesson what it feels like to be falsely accused by strong opponents. I'm just saying, but I don't know.

One man whom I deeply respect once told me, back in the day when I was still enamoured with all things fundamentalist, to not trust fundamentalists (all of them in general, and the SBC specifically in the case of our conversation). He told me (paraphrasing) that they will just as quickly slit a grace man's throat as they will a liberal. I didn't fully believe him then.

Until tonight.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Thy Peace,

Don't you think if it had been hacked the owner would be screaming bloody murder by now?

Dr. Phil,

I bet Wade wouldn't admit it, but I bet he chuckled, too.

Chris Everman said...

Everybody, pay attention.

You all have done a great service tonight for the Souther Baptist Convention. This is the beauty of blogs.

Nobody, anymore, can hide.

Everybody over at SBC Today is hoping beyond all hope that they can explain away all the time changes. They are hoping that they can cover their tracks and people will forget.

It won't happen. There is a permanent record of this little adventure, and next time they accuse Wade Burleson of lying, somebody needs to throw this stuff out there before the entire world.

The hypocrisy is overwhelming.

Wayne Smith said...

Wade,

It is funny how they are trying to cover up the comments on there SBCTOAY Blog. I says 57 Comments and JOHN 3:16’s last comment is # 24. The TIME STAMP for both of the last 2 comments have changed. They are in urgent need of Dr Phil and Intensive Care.

Wayne

Steve said...

Byroniac wrote:

One man whom I deeply respect once told me, back in the day when I was still enamoured with all things fundamentalist, to not trust fundamentalists (all of them in general, and the SBC specifically in the case of our conversation). He told me (paraphrasing) that they will just as quickly slit a grace man's throat as they will a liberal. I didn't fully believe him then.

Until tonight.


Profound, Byroniac, profound.

I join you tonight as well. It has been surreal to me to follow the comments for the past five hours. I confess to be sickened on the one hand, and enraptured on the other. I cannot believe somebody would call himself a Christian and do what he did - after falsely accusing Rev. Burleson of lying.

I, too, now believe Fundamentalists will slit a grace man's throat. I've seen them do it this week, but thank God you and others have charged them with the murder.

Bizarre.

Byroniac said...

Wayne, for some reason the replies are not numbered. Counting the replies as well (counted them myself personally) there are indeed 57. So that is not an issue.

Carl W. said...

Wayne,

Do your part for Pastor Wade. He's gone to bed. He told us earlier that he is barred from accessing SBC Today. Document what they have done. If John 3:16's LAST comment is #24, then that means they have deleted John 3:16's comment which was the next to last comment (#56) - the one that "requested" the blog comment section be shut down by the administrators. THAT COMMENT WAS WRITTEN BY WES PRETENDING TO BE SOMEONE ELSE.

These guys know they've been exposed, and they are covering their butts. Don't let them get away with the cover up Wayne. In my opinion, this is why the blocked Pastor Wade from access. They know that he would call them on it.

Dr. Mike Kear said...

"You do not have permission to access this site from this IP address."

That's the message I got when I tried to visit SBC Today just now. Apparently they've blocked everyone from Enid, Oklahoma (at least everyone using the same internet provider I have).

The word pusillanimous comes to mind.

Thy Peace said...

Byroniac said ... "Wayne, for some reason the replies are not numbered. Counting the replies as well (counted them myself personally) there are indeed 57. So that is not an issue."

If you look at the source code of each post on SBCToday.com, you will see the comments are numbered in an auto-increment field. Those can not be changed.

GeneOK said...

If they are trying to cover things up, they're sure doing a poor job of it.

Wayne Smith said...

I do believe these Pastors at SBCTODAY have done a Good Number on exposing Dr. Paige Patterson as well as their self’s.

Wayne

Byroniac said...

Thy Peace,

I see the comment numbers on the regular comments, but I cannot see them on the replies. But I have not looked at the page source yet. Thanks.

Thy Peace said...

"If John 3:16's LAST comment is #24, then that means they have deleted John 3:16's comment which was the next to last comment (#56) - the one that "requested" the blog comment section be shut down by the administrators. "

Their ordering of comments is different. Lot of them are embedded within other comments (comments interacting with other comments). So one can not go by logical progression from top to bottom, for the order of display is different.

The number of comments and ordering is OK. The only surprising thing is the missing Comment, the one before the comment they originally changed the time on.

gmommy said...

The anger and deceitful lengths the "BM" guys will go to is really hard to believe.
I'm still trying to process the ugliness from CB to Thy Peace. Why???

I expect that type of rant from an unstable person....not a pastor.
How much rage are these guys carrying around??? Talk about pretending to have a form of godliness???

Wayne Smith said...

Carl W.
The comment is still there, as next to last except it is # 24.

Wayne

happy gram said...

just re-read darby livingston's comment re: kcrowder. i was thinking the same myself - k's tone has changed over the course of the last several months - i love the way darby pointed out the inadvertant discipling that has occured on this blog. compliments to k! praying that the pastors whose comments are assaulting will "see themselves as others see them" and, while disagreeing with wade, will realize that they CAN disagree without belittling him.

GeneOK said...

Did anyone else other than Wes attend the interview with Dr. Patterson? Seems like I recall a statement on one of the other blogs that at least one other did. If so then the "preacher boys" report turns out to be correct. If it was only Wes then I guess the other "preacher boys" were too smart to get involved.

Thy Peace said...

Kevin M. Crowder's transformation started here.

oc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Rex Ray said...

Wade,
To explain where I’m going with this, you have to know how I believe my father’s teachings to me.

He believed the Bible teaches not to call anyone ‘Father’ except God and your own father.

He believed it was OK to call a person by his ‘job—title’ such as ‘Governor’ XXX, ‘President’ XXX, ‘Dr.’ XXX etc, but not to call him by his education which might reflect the person’s importance or reverence due him.

My father believed in education as my brother and I were carried across the stage when our parents got their Master’s Degree in 1933.

He always said, a degree didn’t change a man and if he was a hog, the degree just put a little more curl in his tail.

With that said…

The bestowed “doctorate of wisdom—Dr. Ray” was short lived by the exclusion of the bestower—Dr. Phil. (smile)

Wade, you don’t care for Phil’s choice of words in giving your post a ‘bad name’, and I don’t blame you. He is like Peter cutting off the ear and Jesus told him to put his sword away.

Like Peter, I believe he needs another chance…as I think he stands for truth and has a flair in the way he presents it.

I hope your critics don’t twist my words into saying I’m comparing you to Jesus.

P.S. Just read the latest, and Phil is swinging his sword again. (Phil, could you please use a stick?)

Wow! You guys are good detectives.

New BBC Open Forum said...

The TIMELINE HAS NOW BEEN CHANGED BY WES KENNEY ON SBC TODAY. FROM 12:16 TO 11:16

John 3:16
February 5th, 2009 at 11:16 pm

I was so taken with the passionate interview with a man who was obviously tired when he gave this interview. That is, until I began to read the comment thread. Patterson is obviously committed to the gospel, to the churches, and to reaching the lost, as came out in the interview-we really heard from this man’s heart in a weak moment.

Wes Kenney Reply:
February 6th, 2009 at 12:17 am

Granted.

Then Wes Kenney closed the Comment on the Blog.


In addition to the last comment now being stamped February 6th at 9:17 a.m. (which is impossible since many of us saw it just after it originally appeared at 12:17 a.m.), the previous comment is now stamped February 5th at 11:09 p.m.. So the time on that one has been pushed back another 7 minutes.

John 3:16
February 5th, 2009 at 11:09 pm

I was so taken with the passionate interview with a man who was obviously tired when he gave this interview. That is, until I began to read the comment thread. Patterson is obviously committed to the gospel, to the churches, and to reaching the lost, as came out in the interview-we really heard from this man’s heart in a weak moment.

Wes Kenney Reply:
February 6th, 2009 at 9:17 am

Granted.

Can anyone tell if any of the other comments in that string had their timestamps changed?

Anonymous said...

I too have been blocked from SBCToday.

Dr. Mike Kear said...

Debbie, they've blocked everyone from Enid. I addressed this over at my place. This is really unbelievable.

oc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Robert said...

I can confirm that SBCToday has the Finest I.T administrators in the whole world.
Worldclass Administrators

Robert I Masters
From the Southern Baptist Geneva

Byroniac said...

Over at Scott Gordon's blog, he left the following note, "[My brothers at SBC today and I have decided that it is best we heed the Scriptural admonition of Titus 3:10. Thus we are shutting down further comments on this matter at SBC Today as am I here at my blog.]" This probably explains the recent odd, extreme actions (such as blocking IP's), because now Scott Gordon is basically accusing Wade of being a heretic. This is unbelievable to me.

Anonymous said...

You folks need to go to sagordon.blogspot.com and read the last comment on the Feb. 5th post “If not a Liberal…at least a Liar…”

Un-Christians said...

Yes, this ranks right up there with Jerry Corbaley refusing to eat at the same table with Wade and claiming he was just trying to be a good Christian by following Titus 3:10.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Titus 3:10 - A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

Ouch.

BTW, for those of you whose IP addresses were blocked, over on the morphing blog tonight they had a riveting discussion about whether pig intestines are (is?) spelled “chitlins” or “chitterlings.”

Benji Ramsaur said...

I'm having problems getting on SBC Today now.

And I was part of that reviting chitlins conversation.

It is telling me "The website cannot display the page"

However, I was able to copy and paste a piece of interaction I had with John 3:16 myself that you all might like to read [and before the chitlins took off].

John 3:16
February 6th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
Benji,

The history books say that the seminaries were not following the church’s confession. That is what the conservative reformation was about, at least that is what the history books say. Why should the people in the churches leave when the seminaries needed to change back to what they should have been teaching?

Sorry, Tim, this is getting boring. I might check in later.

[Reply]
17Benji Ramsaur
February 6th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
John 3:16,

Aw man [if you are a male--I'm really not sure], don’t leave the party.

Sorry we are boring to you. I better spice things up before you come back and give that “shut down the comment stream” speech to ole Wes.

If the confession was fine, then why 2000 [priesthood of believer(s)/Scripture--Christ/Lord's Day].

Com’on back, let’s have some fried chicken fun:)

Grace,

Benji

P.S. For some reason I have a hunch someone might come back and say “Well, we clarified what the confession had always meant”. If so, I hope you can defend that by actually getting into the “details” instead of just making a general statement.

Benji Ramsaur said...

BBC is right and I was wrong.

The chitlins were riiiivveting!, not reviting.

* For more information on chitterlings see the excellent wikipedia article found below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chitterlings

Byroniac said...

Trying to go to www.sbctoday.com gave me the message, "Error establishing a database connection"
which strikes me as odd. I'm used to seeing error messages, but usually you get an error number or something with it, along with the digital equivalent of a bad hair day. I have no way of telling if the web page was actually generated or not (just a static page with that message) though, not being familiar with server-side software out there, it could be configured to give none of the detailed error information you usually receive (like when an ASP.NET page barfs for example).

Wayne Smith said...

I am getting the same error, Trying to go to www.sbctoday.com gave me the message, "Error establishing a database connection"

Wayne

Byroniac said...

Either 45,000 people decided to surf www.sbctoday.com simultaneously or something's up with their server right now. The link to the site is so slow I can almost see the individual bits racing down my ethernet cable. Man, we had better performance than this on our old SQL 2000 server on a full workload day while we had to run major administrator tasks in the background. Wow.

Then it seems the home page gives an error, but I could still see that particular post. Well, it's late. I'm tired. I'm in "whatever" mode right now.

http://sbctoday.com/2009/02/05/a-brief-visit-with-dr-paige-patterson/#comment-8233

Benji Ramsaur said...

OK, I've been able to get back on SBC Today.

The full and unedited transcript of the chitlins conversation is given below for your reading pleasure:

John 3:16
February 6th, 2009 at 6:08 pm
Benji,

If you offer fried chitlin, I might come back, but after dinner.

[Reply]
20Benji Ramsaur
February 6th, 2009 at 6:14 pm
–chitlins

I accidentally ate that once.

[Reply]
21volfan007
February 6th, 2009 at 6:50 pm
The correct spelling of “chitlins” is “chitterlings.” I have not, nor will I, ever eat Chitterlings unless I’m starving to death.

David

[Reply]
22Benji Ramsaur
February 6th, 2009 at 6:56 pm
My man volfan breakin’ it down:)

[Reply]
23Benji Ramsaur
February 6th, 2009 at 7:05 pm
volfan,

Com’on volfan. I checked wikipedia before I gave my spelling–there are alternative spellings. Cut me some slack, eh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chitterlings

I must say though, if eatin’ “chitterlings” together would help us SB’s get along better, then oh well…

[Reply]
cb scott
February 6th, 2009 at 10:45 pm
I don’t mind eatin’ chitlins. We all might not mind eatin’ chitlins by the time the government bails everyone out but us.

cb

[Reply]

An Appreciative Church Member said...

AN IMPORTANT SUMMARY OF THE DECEITFUL COVER-UP AT SBC TODAY ON FEBRUARY 6, 2009

The administrators of SBC Today, including men like Scott Gordon, Wes Kenney, Robin Foster, Tim Guthrie and other Baptist Identity people have spent two days this week accusing my pastor, Wade Burleson, of being a liar. It was a concerted effort, led by the aforementioned men and joined by others including Peter Lumpkin, Bart Barber, and David Volfann. Their barbs of "liar," "wild-eyed liberal," "slanderer," "rumor mongerer" have been cast on several blogs. My pastor quietly, and with civility, denied their charges, and maintained his position that he was simply wishing to protect Southern Baptists from losing their jobs for ideological reasons. He has informed our church members that he will not sit by and be silent if he believes he can protect another Professor Sheri Klouda from the hurt of ideological extremes. Thus, his posts revealing that Calvinists are now being targeted by ideologues at SWBTS.

Shortly after midnight, February 6, 2009, after posting many comments containing scandalous and ungodly charges against my pastor, and deleting comments that defended him, including one of my own, a person identifying himself only as John 3:16 came on SBC Today and wrote a comment denigrating Grace and Truth to You and called Pastor Burleson a "rumor mongerer. " John 3:16 then asked that the administrators of SBC Today "close the comment stream" to prevent intertwining with "less reputable blogs" This request of John 3:16 had a precise time stamp: It read . . .
_______________________________

John 3:16
February 6th, 2009 at 12:16 am
________________________________

Less than one minute later, Wes Kenney, one of the administrators of SBC Today, writes a one word response to the lengthy request of John 3:16. Wes Kenney's response looked precisely like this . . .
_________________________________

Wes Kenney Reply:
February 6th, 2009 at 12:17 am

Granted

___________________________________

The time stamps on the two comments reveal that the response to John 3:16's request came in less than a minute. It is obvious that John 3:16 is actually Wes Kenney, and Wes wanted himself to close the blog comments, desired to impugn the character of my paster, but sought to do it through deception. Now, reread the comment by John 3:16, printed in full below, with the knowledge that it was Wes Kenney writing it . . .
_________________________

John 3:16
February 6th, 2009 at 12:16 am


"I was so taken with the passionate interview with a man who was obviously tired when he gave this interview. That is, until I began to read the comment thread. Patterson is obviously committed to the gospel, to the churches, and to reaching the lost, as came out in the interview-we really heard from this man’s heart in a weak moment.

Unfortunately, these heartfelt thoughts are being shrouded over and lost because of the imposition of ideas that have come from another blog, a blog that has been making unsubstantiated claims. And now, the conversation has shifted to whether a Calvinist can say that Christ died for lost people. Even though some of the Calvinists themselves have objected to the idea that such passionate presentation of the gospel is perfectly compatible with Calvinism, the conversation continues and the unsubstantiated charges are subtly brought over from the other blog.

May I ask a favor from the editors of SBC Today? Would you please consider closing the comment stream in order to allow people to listen to Patterson directly without distracting (and what some might legitimately consider to be rumor-mongering) catcalls from the gallery? SBC Today is a reputable blog that does not need to become intertwined with less reputable blogs.

Thank you for considering my request."

________________________________

Wes Kenney Reply:
February 6th, 2009 at 12:17 am

Granted

________________________________

AN IMPORTANT CONFIRMATION OF THE TIME OF THE TWO COMMENTS AND THE BELIEF THAT THE TWO COMMENTS COME FROM THE SAME MAN

Exactly thirty minutes after John 3:16 (aka: Wes Kenney) made his request and then Wes Kenney answered himself and shut down the comment section, a person named Andrew, commenting on Grace and Truth to You at 12:47 am central time, February 6, wrote:

People go look at SBC Today and notice how Wes Kenney and the comments about the Patterson interview and notice what Wes has done. He takes down comments that say he and others ought to apologize to Wade Burleson for calling him a liar, then has an anonymous "John 3:16" person come on at 12:16 a.m. and write - "May I ask a favor from the editors of SBC Today? Would you please consider closing the comment stream in order to allow people to listen to Patterson directly without distracting (and what some might legitimately consider to be rumor-mongering) catcalls from the gallery? SBC Today is a reputable blog that does not need to become intertwined with less reputable blogs." Less than one minute later Wes Kenney himself comes on and writes one word - "Granted" If Wes is so naive to think we can't see he is the one who wants to shut down his blog comment section because people's eyes are being opened to the truth and are now calling him on it, then he is lost in space.

Again, Andrew makes his comment at 12:47 am central time, just thirty minutes after the two comments in question appeared on SBC Today. Remember Andrew's comment, and the time of it, because of what follows.
______________________________

Sometime Friday afternoon people at Grace and Truth to You, including me, began to notice that the Time Stamp for the two comments at SBC Outpost had been altered by the administrators of SBC Today. Questions began to fly. What happened? Why the time change? What's going on? Was Wes Kenney embarrassed because he was being exposed as the anonymous John 3:16, and now he was attempting to cover it up?

A comment on Grace and Truth to You, time stamped at 3:02 p.m. (1:02 Central Time) February 6, written by a blogger named Wayne points people to SBC Outpost and the two comments, which still had their original time stamps. Wayne also alleges John 3:16 is Wes Kenney and is closing down his blog under false pretenses.

Then, mysteriously, the time stamp changes. The very thing Wes accused my pastor of doing, calling him deceptive and a liar when my pastor denied it. Anyone who uses Blogger.com, as does my pastor Wade Burleson, CANNOT change time stamps. It is impossible to do. But Wes uses WordPress, and administrators CAN CHANGE time stamps on Word Press. Wes starting changing the time stamps, separating his reponse from John 3:16 request by SEVERAL HOURS. He was wanting to cover up that he is John 3:16 and wrote BOTH comments.

Some of the most precise questions directed at Wes after he began deceitfully changing the time stamps came from a blogger named Byroniac, who revealed that he had received email confirmations of the original time stamps to the two comments on SBC Today. He confirmed that the John 3:16 comment and Wes Kenney's response were less than a minute apart in time. Byroniac wrote on Grace and Truth to You late Friday afternoon, February 6:

I am very fortunate to have subscribed by email to the comments at SBC Today. The time difference between John 3:16's comment (2nd from last) and Wes Kenney's granting the request was only one minute. And I have that in my email records.

So, Wes Kenney, what's up??!?!


Byroniac's confirmation email about the comments on SBC Outpost contained even more detailed time stamps for the John 3:16 and Wes Kenney comments. Byroniac's confirmation about the original time stamps was in military time, to the second.

Byroniac continued:

I was mistaken [about how long it took Wes to respond to the "request" to shut down the comment stream]. It was actually less than a minute. Someone has some explainin' to do. ;)

________________________________

When multiple challenges regarding the integrity of SBC Today began to arise by commentors on this blog, administrators at SBC Today continued to change BOTH time stamps of the two comments, as well as the comments that preceeded the two in question, in order to confuse people. The comment for John 3:16 is now stamped as below:
______________________________

John 3:16
February 5th, 2009 at 11:09 pm
_______________________________

This is an alteration of over an hour back in time from the original John 3:16comment time stamp. Administrators at SBC Today may change the time stamp again to try to confuse people who read this explanation of the deceit. When one starts deceiving, you must continue to cover your tracks.

Likewise, the comment of Wes Kenney is now stamped:
______________________________

Wes Kenney Reply:
February 6th, 2009 at 9:17 am

"Granted."

_________________________________

The change in time for Wes's response is significant. The administrators at SBC Outpost have moved Wes's response forward precisely TEN HOURS to make it look as if there was a ten hour separation between the request of John 3:16 that the comment section be shut down and the response from Wes Kenney.

But there is a problem. Do you remember Andrew's comment from above on Grace and Truth to You at 12:47 am on Febrary 6? How can Andrew be writing about the comment from WES NINE HOURS BEFORE THE CURRENT TIME STAMP THAT SBC TODAY CURRENTLY USES SAYS WES WROTE IT?

There is only one way, friends. SBC Today is practicing deceit. SBC Today is intentionally altering facts. And, what is truly unfortunate is the fact that Wes Kenney, Scott Gordon, and others repeatedly accused Pastor Burleson this week of lying - forcing Rev. Burleson's wife to come on this site and defend her husband.

_____________________________

IN CONCLUSION

SBC Today will probably delete the entire comment stream at some point to erase the evidence of their fraud and deceit and to keep people from checking the veracity of what I have written. But we all know. We have seen it with our eyes. Southern Baptists should not be allowed to forget this event.

People who have followed the the character assassinations against my pastor for the past week, assaults delivered by the very people responsible for SBC Today, should learn several lessons from these unfortunate events:

(1). It is the custom of human nature to yell against those things the loudest that actually are our own greatest weaknesses. The Baptist Identity people have yelled and screamed that my pastor has "lied" about SWBTS and his own time stamps (which we know is impossible), but all the while, they have deceptively and hypocritically altered facts to convey untruths.

(2). It is a different day in the Southern Baptist Convention. No longer can the reckless labels of "liberal" and "liar" be thrown around as they were in the 1980's. People are much more informed via the internet, and harsh ideologies have no room in the kingdom of Christ which is to be known for our love for one another.

(3). The Bible will never lead one astray. The axiom "Be sure, your sins will find you out" is as relevant today as it was when first written.

(4). Truth will always rise to the service. One should realize that credibility is based on character, and the loss of credibility corresponds to the exposure of corrupt character.

(5). Let us hope that those who have railed against my pastor will be humbled by the shame and humiliation coming their way.

I offer this to you, Pastor Burleson, for all you have done for me, my husband, and my family over the last fifteen years.

You have taught us to love with both grace and truth.

An Anonymous but Appreciative Church Member

Anonymous said...

To see if all Enid is blocked from SBC Today you might try a computer at the public library there and see if you can get into it that way. I used one at my local library while my computer was in the shop, though I can't remember if I commented from there; I did use email so I expect comments would work also.

If all Enid is blocked from SBC Today you might try going out of town with a laptop. Other places in Oklahoma don't seem to be blocked, though I didn't try to comment since I would guess they wouldn't allow comments by females.

This is if you want to bother with them at all.

BTW, This blog's post dated Thursday, Feb. 5 has over 300 comments and their (SBC Today) post on this topic dated Wednesday, Feb. 4 has 10 comments, all but the last two dated Wednesday also. I do not know enough about blogs to explain whether there are deletions or to enter the discussion of such. Just thought it is interesting.

Susie

Rex Ray said...

Susie,
I just did a copy paste of the comment I made on SBC Today. Here it is:

Rex Ray
February 7th, 2009 at 5:59 am
Scott Gordon, Peter, Wes (John 3:16?), and all doubters of Wade’s Christian integrity:

Let’s supposed there is a rumor that you suck raw eggs.

You are asked: “Is there any truth to that rumor?

Would you answer?
1. Yes
2. No
3. I hope not.

I realize if you chose number 3, you would be making a joke out of the ridiculous question.

But Patterson knew the question was sincere, and he answered sincerely.

If the rumor was false, Patterson, not being a timid person, would have yelled: ‘No! There’s no truth in it’!

Up to that point, Patterson’s replies were smooth as silk, but in using 285 words to say ‘yes’ or ‘no’, his six “ummm”, four “eh”, five “uh”, and eight “uhhh” reveals his brain was stalling for time trying to think of an answer that wasn’t there.

Regardless of all his stalling and wiggling, his weak denial of “hope not” was not only an untruth but Patterson knew it was untrue.


Susie, I guess Texas is so big, they're afraid to block it. smile

But wonder how long it will stay?

Thy Peace said...

Compared to my previous comment here, the times have changed.

Please look at the Page Source of each of those links to confirm this.

Comment-8234 now has the date/time stamp: February 6th, 2009 at 9:17 am
[Note the above link is for Comment-8233, the Comment-8234 is embedded within it or tied to it]

Comment-8235 has date/time stamp: February 6th, 2009 at 7:27 am

The Comments use Auto-Increment fields. The only way they can be changed is, if you know database programming. They have not changed these fields, indicating that they do not have the knowledge to mess with this data.

Clearly Comment-8234 came before Comment-8235 chronologically. But the times have been altered to look differently.

I personally feel, it would have been lot simpler, if SBC Today just announced they are tired of taking comments and closed the post for further comments, than to go through this rigmarole.

It's hard to cover your tracks on the computer/database, when there are a chain of events that are automatically triggered for each comment coming in.

Lot of times simplicity, truth, openness and love covers and overlooks one another's faults.

Anonymous said...

Rex Ray, It looks like your comment didn't make it onto the SBC Today blog, since it's been awhile since you apparently posted. That's judging by how soon the comments I make appear on Wade's blog. Strange, or maybe not so.

I guess I have trusted Wade on many things - even though there are points of theology, belief, call it what you will, that we see things differently on - because he seems to accept people who don't agree with him as long as the discussion is kept civil, and there is respect. He and I may not agree on what something means, but I trust him that if he says he has seen or been told something he had cause to believe it.

Also, he stands up for people who are treated wrongly as he sees it. I quickly say I have strongly agreed with his stands on wrong treatment, I just phrase it that way because some see it differently or they would have done differently.

I phrase some of it that way because he still believes the SBC is worth saving and he can do something about it. I may think that much of what it was is worth saving but see nothing at all (other than prayer)I can do to influence what it has become, so I put my energy into other things I can do something about. I do say "Go for it" to anyone willing and able to try, but some time back I realized there was nothing useful I could do about it.

There are times I have felt God calling me to beat my head against a brick wall (which fell in one case) and times when it seemed wiser just to go on to other endeavors after a few tries at the brick wall.

Susie

Anonymous said...

Church member,

Thank you for the chronology of this entire episode. One thing that may confuse folks is that you mention SBC Outpost several times. Did you mean to write SBC Today?

When reading your chronology, I had forgotten that wordpress sends e-mail notification of comments on a thread if you request it. I bet that person who changed the timestamps forgot about that.

Like you, I thought the accusation from them that Wade changed his timestamp on blogger was very strange.

But we now know that one cannot change timestamps on blogger. It is unbelievable the lengths these 'pastors' have gone to try and impugn Wade's character in order to protect Patterson... when they DID exactly what they have accused him of doing.

Something to consider from now on.

Lydia

Jack said...

Wade & others:

The manipulation of the comment stream on SBCToday is now well-documented as is the ham-handed blocking of internet users from Enid.

Those responsible are trying to draw attention away from the larger issue at SWBTS.

Don't let them.

Focus on the "main thing" and do not feed the comment trolls.

Paige and his ilk hope to discredit this blog just as they did SBCoutpost.

After poisoning its comment stream by deliberately provoking its community they then used the angry comments in response to paint Paige and Dorothy Patterson as innocent victims "under attack."

You can expect Pope Patterson will attempt to prod others within "The Great Commission Council" and elsewhere in SBC leadership to come to his public defense so that these nasty bloggers don't attack them next.

Don't let it get personal. Don't be provoked to angry posts.

Stay Christlike in demeanor and focus.

Their own words and actions reveal them for who and what they are.

Argue for The Gospel and speak as Christ would speak for those at SWBTS who dare not speak for themselves.

In His Service,
-jack-

Wade Burleson said...

Jack,

Good words.

Amen.

Tom Parker said...

John 3:16 said:
" SBC Today is a reputable blog that does not need to become intertwined with less reputable blogs."

Sure. Someone's reputations are on the line from the fiasco that needed John 3:16 to show up and cause the Blog to stop.

We will be listening for their explanations.

Also it would be very interesting to see the list of who they allow to comment on their site, I'm thinking it would not be a very long one.

Wade Burleson said...

Lydia,

I awoke this morning to find in my email box a very kind email from my "anonymous" church member. There are a couple of typos, like the ones you mention, that I have been asked to correct. However, at Blogger.com, I cannot change comments, comment time stamps, and tamper in anyway with what has been written by others. I have emailed this person back and asked for a repost, but to leave the original up.

Frankly, his/her work has helped me immensely. I will be calling both Wes and Scott Gordon this morning.

In His Grace,

Wade

GeneOK said...

"SBC Today is a reputable blog that does not need to become intertwined with less reputable blogs."

Wow, if changing time stamps to hide what you're doing is now considered "reputable" then Lord help us.

It's the coverup that gets you in trouble. Nixon learned that as did Clinton. Apparently the editor at SBC Today failed to learn that lesson.

Tom Parker said...

I would like to know who John 3:16 is? Does anyone know?

Carl said...

Tom,

Read the devastating comment from the anonymous church member from above. You will know who John 3:16 is.

Anonymous said...

What happened to the timeline?

Wade Burleson said...

I have been overruled by my church members! :) Not the first time.

She and her husband found some typos and rather than leaving their previous comment up, they have corrected the typographical errors and said they would repost the time line in a few minutes.

I would encourage all of us to remember what Jack wrote. There is a much bigger issue in our Convention that we cannot lose sight of.

In His Grace,

Wade

Anonymous said...

I'm telling you, this stuff beats prime time television.

Ralph said...

Wade,

I agree with Ray and OC. I sure hope you haven't run Dr. Phil away. I know you wish to keep things civil, but that man made me laughed so hard I cried!

Ralph

Wade Burleson said...

Ralph,

I have left Dr. Phil's comments up. I'm just asking him, as nice as I know how, not to go after anybodoy's character. You can disagree with what is being done, but you can do it with grace.

Wade

Anonymous said...

Approaching 400 coments. Unbelievable

Steve said...

?? Where's the timeline at 3:00 a.m. this morning?

Anonymous said...

It's coming.

An Appreciative Church Member said...

AN IMPORTANT SUMMARY OF THE DECEITFUL COVER-UP AT SBC TODAY ON FEBRUARY 6, 2009

The administrators of SBC Today, including men like Scott Gordon, Wes Kenney, Robin Foster, Tim Guthrie and other Baptist Identity people have spent two days this week accusing my pastor, Wade Burleson, of being a liar. It was a concerted effort, led by the aforementioned men and joined by others including Peter Lumpkin, Bart Barber, and David Volfann. Their barbs of "liar," "wild-eyed liberal," "slanderer," "rumor mongerer" have been cast on several blogs. My pastor quietly, and with civility, denied their charges, and maintained his position that he was simply wishing to protect Southern Baptists from losing their jobs for ideological reasons. He has informed our church members that he will not sit by and be silent if he believes he can protect another Professor Sheri Klouda from the hurt of ideological extremes. Thus, his posts revealing that Calvinists are now being targeted by ideologues at SWBTS.

Shortly after midnight, February 6, 2009, after posting many comments containing scandalous and ungodly charges against my pastor, and deleting comments that defended him, including one of my own, a person identifying himself only as John 3:16 came on SBC Today and wrote a comment denigrating Grace and Truth to You and called Pastor Burleson a "rumor mongerer. " John 3:16 then asked that the administrators of SBC Today "close the comment stream" to prevent intertwining with "less reputable blogs" This request of John 3:16 had a precise time stamp: It read . . .
_______________________________

John 3:16
February 6th, 2009 at 12:16 am
________________________________

Less than one minute later, Wes Kenney, one of the administrators of SBC Today, writes a one word response to the lengthy request of John 3:16. Wes Kenney's response looked precisely like this . . .
_________________________________

Wes Kenney Reply:
February 6th, 2009 at 12:17 am

Granted

___________________________________

The time stamps on the two comments reveal that the response to John 3:16's request came in less than a minute. It is obvious that John 3:16 is actually Wes Kenney, and Wes wanted himself to close the blog comments, desired to impugn the character of my paster, but sought to do it through deception. Now, reread the comment by John 3:16, printed in full below, with the knowledge that it was Wes Kenney writing it . . .
_________________________

John 3:16
February 6th, 2009 at 12:16 am


"I was so taken with the passionate interview with a man who was obviously tired when he gave this interview. That is, until I began to read the comment thread. Patterson is obviously committed to the gospel, to the churches, and to reaching the lost, as came out in the interview-we really heard from this man’s heart in a weak moment.

Unfortunately, these heartfelt thoughts are being shrouded over and lost because of the imposition of ideas that have come from another blog, a blog that has been making unsubstantiated claims. And now, the conversation has shifted to whether a Calvinist can say that Christ died for lost people. Even though some of the Calvinists themselves have objected to the idea that such passionate presentation of the gospel is perfectly compatible with Calvinism, the conversation continues and the unsubstantiated charges are subtly brought over from the other blog.

May I ask a favor from the editors of SBC Today? Would you please consider closing the comment stream in order to allow people to listen to Patterson directly without distracting (and what some might legitimately consider to be rumor-mongering) catcalls from the gallery? SBC Today is a reputable blog that does not need to become intertwined with less reputable blogs.

Thank you for considering my request."

________________________________

Wes Kenney Reply:
February 6th, 2009 at 12:17 am

Granted

________________________________

AN IMPORTANT CONFIRMATION OF THE TIME OF THE TWO COMMENTS AND THE BELIEF THAT THE TWO COMMENTS COME FROM THE SAME MAN

Exactly thirty minutes after John 3:16 (aka: Wes Kenney) made his request and then Wes Kenney answered himself and shut down the comment section, a person named Andrew, commenting on Grace and Truth to You at 12:47 am central time, February 6, wrote:

People go look at SBC Today and notice how Wes Kenney and the comments about the Patterson interview and notice what Wes has done. He takes down comments that say he and others ought to apologize to Wade Burleson for calling him a liar, then has an anonymous "John 3:16" person come on at 12:16 a.m. and write - "May I ask a favor from the editors of SBC Today? Would you please consider closing the comment stream in order to allow people to listen to Patterson directly without distracting (and what some might legitimately consider to be rumor-mongering) catcalls from the gallery? SBC Today is a reputable blog that does not need to become intertwined with less reputable blogs." Less than one minute later Wes Kenney himself comes on and writes one word - "Granted" If Wes is so naive to think we can't see he is the one who wants to shut down his blog comment section because people's eyes are being opened to the truth and are now calling him on it, then he is lost in space.

Again, Andrew makes his comment at 12:47 am central time, just thirty minutes after the two comments in question appeared on SBC Today. Remember Andrew's comment, and the time of it, because of what follows.
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Sometime Friday afternoon people at Grace and Truth to You, including me, began to notice that the Time Stamp for the two comments at SBC Today had been altered by the administrators of SBC Today. Questions began to fly. What happened? Why the time change? What's going on? Was Wes Kenney embarrassed because he was being exposed as the anonymous John 3:16, and now he was attempting to cover it up?

A comment on Grace and Truth to You, time stamped at 3:02 p.m. (1:02 Central Time) February 6, written by a blogger named Wayne points people to SBC Todayt and the two comments, which still had their original time stamps. Wayne also alleges John 3:16 is Wes Kenney and is closing down his blog under false pretenses.

Then, mysteriously, the time stamp changes. The very thing Wes accused my pastor of doing, calling him deceptive and a liar when my pastor denied it. Anyone who uses Blogger.com, as does my pastor Wade Burleson, CANNOT change time stamps. It is impossible to do. But Wes uses WordPress, and administrators CAN CHANGE time stamps on Word Press. Wes starting changing the time stamps, separating his reponse from John 3:16 request by SEVERAL HOURS. He was wanting to cover up that he is John 3:16 and wrote BOTH comments.

Some of the most precise questions directed at Wes after he began deceitfully changing the time stamps came from a blogger named Byroniac, who revealed that he had received email confirmations of the original time stamps to the two comments on SBC Today. He confirmed that the John 3:16 comment and Wes Kenney's response were less than a minute apart in time. Byroniac wrote on Grace and Truth to You late Friday afternoon, February 6:

I am very fortunate to have subscribed by email to the comments at SBC Today. The time difference between John 3:16's comment (2nd from last) and Wes Kenney's granting the request was only one minute. And I have that in my email records.

So, Wes Kenney, what's up??!?!


Byroniac's confirmation email about the comments on SBC Today contained even more detailed time stamps for the John 3:16 and Wes Kenney comments. Byroniac's confirmation about the original time stamps was in military time, to the second.

Byroniac continued:

I was mistaken [about how long it took Wes to respond to the "request" to shut down the comment stream]. It was actually less than a minute. Someone has some explainin' to do. ;)

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When multiple challenges regarding the integrity of SBC Today began to arise by commentors on this blog, administrators at SBC Today continued to change BOTH time stamps of the two comments, as well as the comments that preceeded the two in question, in order to confuse people. The comment for John 3:16 is now stamped as below:
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John 3:16
February 5th, 2009 at 11:09 pm
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This is an alteration of over an hour back in time from the original John 3:16comment time stamp. Administrators at SBC Today may change the time stamp again to try to confuse people who read this explanation of the deceit. When one starts deceiving, you must continue to cover your tracks.

Likewise, the comment of Wes Kenney is now stamped:
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Wes Kenney Reply:
February 6th, 2009 at 9:17 am

"Granted."

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The change in time for Wes's response is significant. The administrators at SBC Today have moved Wes's response forward precisely TEN HOURS to make it look as if there was a ten hour separation between the request of John 3:16 that the comment section be shut down and the response from Wes Kenney.

But there is a problem. Do you remember Andrew's comment from above on Grace and Truth to You at 12:47 am on Febrary 6? How can Andrew be writing about the comment from WES NINE HOURS BEFORE THE CURRENT TIME STAMP THAT SBC TODAY CURRENTLY USES SAYS WES WROTE IT?

There is only one way, friends. SBC Today is practicing deceit. SBC Today is intentionally altering facts. And, what is truly unfortunate is the fact that Wes Kenney, Scott Gordon, and others repeatedly accused Pastor Burleson this week of lying - forcing Rev. Burleson's wife to come on this site and defend her husband.

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IN CONCLUSION

SBC Today will probably delete the entire comment stream at some point to erase the evidence of their fraud and deceit and to keep people from checking the veracity of what I have written. But we all know. We have seen it with our eyes. Southern Baptists should not be allowed to forget this event.

People who have followed the the character assassinations against my pastor for the past week, assaults delivered by the very people responsible for SBC Today, should learn several lessons from these unfortunate events:

(1). It is the custom of human nature to yell against those things the loudest that actually are our own greatest weaknesses. The Baptist Identity people have yelled and screamed that my pastor has "lied" about SWBTS and his own time stamps (which we know is impossible), but all the while, they have deceptively and hypocritically altered facts to convey untruths.

(2). It is a different day in the Southern Baptist Convention. No longer can the reckless labels of "liberal" and "liar" be thrown around as they were in the 1980's. People are much more informed via the internet, and harsh ideologies have no room in the kingdom of Christ which is to be known for our love for one another.

(3). The Bible will never lead one astray. The axiom "Be sure, your sins will find you out" is as relevant today as it was when first written.

(4). Truth will always rise to the service. One should realize that credibility is based on character, and the loss of credibility corresponds to the exposure of corrupt character.

(5). Let us hope that those who have railed against my pastor will be humbled by the shame and humiliation coming their way.

I offer this to you, Pastor Burleson, for all you have done for me, my husband, and my family over the last fifteen years.

You have taught us to love with both grace and truth.

An Anonymous but Appreciative Church Member

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