"I went to Jerusalem to become acquainted (Gk. istoria) with Cephas" - Paul's words from Galatians 1:18.

Trouble at Southwestern Theological Seminary

In a contracting economy Southern Baptist churches and agencies must tighten the fiscal belt. Though God has promised to provide every need for His people, during recessionary periods it is prudent for Christians to place wants and desires in the back seat in order to ensure that the money provided by God to meet needs is not diverted to fulfill personal whims of those in charge. If a Southern Baptist church or institution ever makes the mistake of whittling expenses by firing staff, forcing the early retirement of older employees, and cutting salaries of low end employees while continuing to provide extravagant perks and luxuries for the pastor or president, then trouble for the church or institution looms.

There is no better illustration of this principle at work among Southern Baptists than what is now happening at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.

(1). The seminary must cut more than $4 million dollars this budget year and even more for the next fiscal year.

(2). Numerous staff were laid off the week before Thanksgiving. Most of those laid off were staff who had been at SWBTS for a number of years. They were let go and less experienced, less expensive staff were kept. For example, in the financial aid office, the director who had been at SWBTS a number of years was let go and the associate director who had been at SWBTS since May 2008 was promoted to director.

(3). Professors who did not have ten students enrolled for their classes for the spring 2009 semester had those classes cut, thereby costing the professors about $2,000 per class.

(4). In a meeting on Thursday, Dec. 4th, SWBTS administration announced that there would be "significant layoffs" of more staff and additional professors in January and February. The administration is pressuring older professors to retire early so that there will be less layoffs. The number of those who voluntarily retire will determine how many are laid off. Those terminated will be dismissed at the discretion of the President of SWBTS. One of the professors asked the administrators if Dr. Patterson had the authority to lay off the professors, or was he required to obtain trustee approval? SWBTS administrators skirted around the question, but implied that the trustees would need to approve the cuts. Many professors, however, left with the impression that President Patterson could lay off professors without trustee approval since employees had been told the cuts would be made in January and February, and the next scheduled trustee meeting will not be held until March 2009. Administrators also made it known that there will also be a number of staff let go. In one school alone, five secretaries will be laid off, though those secretaries have not yet been informed.

(5). Dr. Patterson sent out an email prior to the New Year notifying faculty and career staff that starting in January 2009 the seminary would not be paying retirement, and this reduction in benefits would last at least for all of 2009 and more than likely through 2011. This will cost each professor on average $700 each month - a total of $8,400 per year.

(6). SWBTS also announced on Dec. 12th that the Naylor Children's Center will close. Naylor is a full-time daycare for students and working parents who are members of the seminary family. 41 people currently work at the center and will lose their jobs and approximately 100 parents will be forced to find other daycare facilities that will be much more expensive than what families paid at the Naylor center.

(7). While SWBTS staff and faculty are being laid off and salaries reduced, the Pattersons continue to maintain a large personal staff. Mrs. Patterson has an assistant and a research assistant. Dr. Patterson has an executive assistant, secretary, personal assistant, and four interns. The Pattersons also have a large staff at their house. They have employeed at least one chef, though it is widely believed there are at least two chefs, possibly more, on the payroll. There are a minimum of four hostesses/servers, a director for the Presidential house, two people who are paid to walk their dogs, and other staff paid to clean their cars and do other household chores and errands for the Pattersons.

(8). Dr. Patterson has also taken numerous trips the past 3 or 4 months, no doubt spending budget dollars on airfare, lodging, etc. Dr. Patterson, Mrs. Patterson and Dr. Blasing all recently flew to Germany to visit the SWBTS campus there. While Dr. Blasing only went for the weekend, the Patterson's stayed for an additional week.

(9). The seminary spent thousands of dollars on the 100th anniversary celebration last year. This included buying Dr. Patterson an "unbelievably expensive" pair of custom made boots. The SWBTS budget also bought all professors black Stetson cowboy hats, as pictured by Dr. Patterson above.

(10). Enrollment continues to decline, but the numbers being presented to the public make it appear better than it really is because the numbers no longer include only full-time students, but anyone who simply takes a course from SWBTS.

When I begin to hear from faculty, staff and students at SWBTS then it should be obvious that trouble is on the horizon at SWBTS. What really bothers staff and faculty is the fact that people are losing their jobs, losing their retirement, losing their benefits, etc . . . but the Pattersons still have high end luxuries and expensive perks. The anger, in my opinion, is justified. During tough times, the person who should take the biggest financial hit is the one in charge.

If trustees at SWBTS do not do something quickly, the future could be very dark for SWBTS.

In His Grace,


Wade Burleson

305 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 305 of 305
Anonymous said...

Lay off of Patterson.

What you guys don't get is that the rich are so misunderstood.

Anonymous said...

Wade writes, 'Dr. Patterson, Mrs. Patterson and Dr. Blasing all recently flew to Germany to visit the SWBTS campus there. While Dr. Blasing only went for the weekend, the Patterson's stayed for an additional week.'

Scouting out their next fiefdom ?

Kate Johnson said...

G -
maybe that's the issue, the professors aren't really professors, they are teaching elders, so they should do it for free!

Of course the pastor gets paid! and has a parsonage - although I'm not sure many have names like Pecan Manor.

I'm just tired of the church acting less truthful and open than the world. I know many secular non-profits who do not hide behind the another non-profit (although there are some that do), yet it is very common for ministry non-profits to hide behind a church. We determined not to do that when we started our ministry, for just that reason. We are to hold higher ethical standards than the world, not less.

Kate Johnson said...

Lydia, I'm with you. And once I get our annual report done, with the budget, it will be available on-line at our website. I think it is a great idea that someone I know does, and when I saw his, I determined we would do the same.

Anonymous said...

Some have forgotten why the SBC was formed. Some have forgotten the goal of seminaries. I have no problem with one who has the means to live well. It is not more spiritual to live like a pauper. But, when other brothers and sisters,some with families, lose their jobs and there are no changes in higher living, no giving to these people to help them to keep their jobs, I have a big problem with that.

We cannot look to the social government and say they do it so can so and so. As has been pointed out, we are Christians, and Christ set us to a different, higher standard. We can't yell how wrong the world is, go to war against what we don't like, then compare ourselves to them.

Ron said...

Louis,
You wrote, "And that does not give me enough info to make a judgment. Others can make all the judgments they want, and may feel that those judgments are fully informed. I just don't care to play along."

You posted a very negative comment on the actions of Martin Bradley and were quick to make a judgement on his character without being fully informed. I tried to help you get informed but you did not respond. The facts were Martin Bradley did his job exactly as he was supposed to and Paul Pressler was out of place with his untrue charges.

You are quick to ignore the beam in the eye of CR leaders but even quicker to point out the splinters in the eyes of theological conservatives who point out the hypocrisy and lies of the CR political organization.

Anonymous said...

"The problem I see with a denomination having a "DC Lobby" (or whatever you want to call it), is that social policy is governed too much by one's political leanings. Therefore it is divisive to a denomination."

I agree. Can you picture Paul lobbying Rome for laws advantageous to Christians? Probably some could. But that is not our mission.

"Let's have the courage to get spin off the Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission and let it raise its own support independently of the Cooperative Program."

Excellent idea.

Lydia

Scott said...

Look at at the SWBTS site for the "Pecan Manor Christmas" and you will have a good idea of the Patterson's lifestyle. Of course, I realize he only lives this way to help the ministry. http://www.swbts.edu/dashboard.cfm?mediafile=PecanManorChristmas

Greg Alford said...

Curious,

I was just playing with my Landmark Friend Tim Rogers who has been known to “stroke out” when I say such things in public… you can read about it here.

Anyway, now I am curious…

You said:

“Greg, I take it that you do not hold with the Pelagian 'Heresy' as it has been called, but do you go to the OTHER extreme: mankind is totally depraved? Unable to respond to their consciences and the the moral laws that God imprints on the hearts of all humanity?”

Are you saying that “unregenerate” mankind is capable of responding to (obeying) the moral laws that God imprints on the hearts of all humanity?

If so, then you are not treading the “middle way” my friend… you are far down the road of Pelagianism. If “unregenerate” mankind is capable of obeying God then what do they need Jesus for? Perhaps, I am reading more into your comment than you intended to say… just curious?

Grace Always,

Anonymous said...

To anon,

Of course I don't think he would steal from his church. But that's the point--he can prove that he paid for his ticket and hotel with his money. If he says Patterson is spending CP money on the things he mentioned in his blog, then prove it. Let's see some receipts, some invoices, some emails, some statements, something! Anyone can say anything about anybody but that doesn't make it true. I can say I'm 7'0" tall, good looking and can dunk a basketball does that make it true? No, none of those are true by the way. I would have to prove it. It's time to put up or shut up

MIKE

Kate Johnson said...

Well, I watched the video and counted six Chrsitmas trees in the "manor". Then again, we don't know what is in the bedrooms....

Interesting credits at the end... thanks to the Director of Hospitality, Executive Chef, Pastry Chef... I stopped watching...

All I can say is OMG!

Anonymous said...

Wade,
I hope you post more on the aspect of this in the months ahead I am not quite sure as to claim that the budget cuts should be blame on Patterson. I have heard many ministries and charities are being hit heard in a thirty percent drop in the market that reinvests through endowments to such matters. We all in this together:0). Attacking Patterson will solve nothing. As we should fear something of sovereignity of Christ then I would suggest contemplating on being subject one to another out of fear and reverance to Christ. Truly there is no hierarchy if we understand this, and yes this goes for those in leadership position towards fellow brethren.
Somewhere West of Enid

Anonymous said...

I will say that I am bugged that there were layoffs of the more experienced instead of the less experienced. That is typically a Machevillian move for power. Wise men need fellow commerads around in tough times.
Somewhere West of Enid

Anonymous said...

Lydia:

I think we are on the same page when it comes to openness and I think you do understand my point there.

I am against emotional prejudice. That can be displayed by the educated and the wealthy, too.

Kate and Lydia, while I am for openness, I don't think that the non-profits that you guys are involved in have to post their budgets publicly. I think that they should be available to those who give or want to give. There should be some level of privacy, too. But if you guys want to post, that's fine.

I do not think that churches should have to file paperwork with the IRS. Since churches are exempt entities, I am not for giving the IRS any authority over them.

Ron, if you think that I made a mistake with the former Recording Secretary of the SBC, why would you want me to repeat a mistake?

And if you thought that I made an unwarranted rush to judgment that was unwise, why would you want to do that in this case?

I have contacted two people with regard to the Martin Bradley affair. One is a former SBC elected officer and the other is a former member of the Executive Committee member. Both remember the controversy surrounding Mr. Bradley and his failure to include material in the SBC annual that related to a resolution or motion on inerrancy. Neither confirmed, as you have suggested, that it was because he left the text of debate out of the annual which would not been included anyway.

So, I still conclude based on what these gentlemen told me and my previous reading that Martin Bradley failed to exercise correctly his corporate duties. I know that was one reason that Baptists voted him out of office - was their understanding that he had made that error.

I did not get the references that you want me to check out. I would be glad to check them out if you will post them here, and if I think I am wrong, I will let you know.

I do wish, however, that you would be less angry about all of this. I believe that you are a person of good will and I hope that you will extend the same belief to me. I am doing the best I can based on memory and what I read previously - many years ago, and have now confirmed with two sources who were involved at the time. I suspect that the SBC annuals would not be of help because we are talking about something that was left out of an annual - so it would not be there.

If you posted the information that you want me to look at earlier, I am sorry that I did not see it, but I got tied up and can't remember what post it was on.

Thanks.

Louis

Jon Estes said...

Gary,

If every student is a member of the SWBTS church do they get counted twice when ACP's are turned in across the nation. I would hope our seminaries would not promote duel church membership. But who knows???

Anonymous said...

GREG. what do you think about this:

We cooperate with God, but in the end: it is God who does all, since He is “at work” in us, “both to will and to work.”

Calvin is simply unable to grasp this biblical paradox. For him it is either/or: if God does all, man must do nothing. Conversely, if man does anything, then this is works-salvation and contrary to grace.

BUT THE BIBLE DOES NOT REQUIRE THIS CHOICE.
GRACE DOES ALL, AND MAN ALSO COOPERATES WITH IT.

In two sermons, John Wesley, the great evangelist and founder of Methodism, expresses thoughts very similar.



"God works in us – therefore man can work . . . God works in you – therefore you must work.
YOU MUST WORK TOGETHER WITH HIM OR HE WILL CEASE WORKING."

Anonymous said...

In the Christmas video, Pecan Manor has been publicly flaunted by the Pattersons in all its extravagance JUST AT THE TIME DRASTIC CUTS ARE PUBLICLY BEING MADE BY PATTERSON ('at the discretion of the President') in
SBTS.

What does this tell you?

There IS a message here from Patterson to everyone.
It is coded.
What is that message, people?

Anonymous said...

By publicly flaunting Pecan Manor's extravagance, maybe Patteson DOES in his own conscience WANT to be curbed.

My theory is that Patterson secretly answers to DOROTHY!!!!!
After all, men have been led into sin since Eve.

Some theory, I know, but only a totally idiot would flaunt that kind of extravagance on the one hand and turn around and tell his faculty and students that they are getting thrown under the bus.

It's Dorothy leading poor Paige into extravagance. Paige needs to practice what he preaches and tell Dorothy: no more pastry chefs!
(How many did they have, anyway?)

Anonymous said...

"I am against emotional prejudice. That can be displayed by the educated and the wealthy, too."

Where do you see emotional prejudice. Come on, Louis, spell it out for us instead of your vague 'warnings' with interesting descriptors. Lets get to some specifics instead of you telling us we cannot know everything so we should not have an opinion which you call 'emotional'.

That is the oldest excuse in the book and the most arrogant.


"Kate and Lydia, while I am for openness, I don't think that the non-profits that you guys are involved in have to post their budgets publicly. I think that they should be available to those who give or want to give. There should be some level of privacy, too. But if you guys want to post, that's fine."

Thanks for your opinion but I am surrounded by lawyers, Louis. They are trained just like you. :o) they are also clever communicators who are adept at planting specific seeds of thinking about others such as 'emotional prejudice' if someone speaks out about the Pattersons extravagence. Since i am related to these lawyers, I can pin them down and get them to admit that SOMETIMES where there is some smoke, there might be fire, too. :o)

Where there is a Pecan Manor with a pastry chef, there might be some excesses paid for by tithe dollars. You think they might be able to forgo the pastries in tough times? :o)

"I do not think that churches should have to file paperwork with the IRS. Since churches are exempt entities, I am not for giving the IRS any authority over them."

I agree. But I would run from any church or parachurch org that does not make a detailed budget availabile to members or donors. Even if it is an 'uneducated, emotional peasant'.

Lydia

Anonymous said...

Whether Louis can appreciate this or not:

the treatment of others by Patterson does impact us on a gut level: but it is INTENDED TO DO THAT.

That's part of the manipulation and the intimidation.

"See my power. See what I can do to someone if I choose to do it. (acting 'at the discretion of the President')
ME POWERFUL.
YOU TOAST. BE SCARED.
(Unless you are in my favor, or serve my purposes.)

At least there is some integrity here: the 'faithful' are now getting the same kind of treatment that others got in the past.

There should be no more surprises for anyone anymore in the SBC or the SBTS: yes, a certain integrity is at work here.


But there is ANOTHER kind of GUT LEVEL reaction that is intended to empower us as Christians:

People get the kind of leadership they deserve: but some of their relatives and children get hurt also, and, for them, at least, all Christians can mourn and possibly, take action to make change for their sake.

Louis, you know, a person's conscience will keep on troubling them long after they have intellectually gone over to the dark side: the Holy Spirit controls those 'twinges' of guilt.
All the 'rationalization' of a situation that we do is powerless against the force of the Holy Spirit to convict of wrong-doing.
So, paying attention to the feelings that 'will not go away' or be 'rationalized away' is important for a Christian.

Those 'Spirit-prompted' feelings are our guides sometimes, when we are too stupid in our human weakness to figure it out intellectually.

Don't discredit all human reaction to a situation that is not strictly rational when you are dealing with Kingdom matters, Louis. You are in the Court of the Most High when your informed conscience speaks to you, not in the man-made courts of 'reason' which sometimes desert the moral law in favor of darkness.

Anonymous said...

But every President has lived in Pecan Manor and with some element of luxury. How can you judge Patterson? Personally, maybe all ministers could have some degree of leaness needed. You got to be very careful in judging along on this lines lest a log comes back on you. If you bite and devour in blog like this just beware...grace must abound higher with such evaluations even if others don't do it to you. God knows what is going in all thi situation.

WatchingHISstory said...

Amen, Greg

Anonymous said...

"How can you judge Patterson?"

Whose judging HIM ?

It's the damage he's done to others we're concerned about.
It's his ACTIONS in a position of authority in the Church that bears scrutiny.

So we CAN look at his actions, and yes, from what he does we can learn about his character, especially now when his present decisions and actions bear even more striking similarity to his past treatment of others.
His 'style' is becoming trade-mark Patterson.

We know his title.
But what is the man?

None of us would care EXCEPT that so many people have been impacted negatively by this person, while he has benefited mightily. It just makes sense that we have to begin to carefully examine WHO and WHAT he is.

If his charges are suffering under the attack of economic lions devouring their security:
is Patterson in the ring with them OR is he sitting in the Emperor's Box watching the show: disconnected from their plight and disconnected from their suffering?

Is he benignly 'looking down' on them from above, like Bush harmlessly and helplessly looking down on Katrina victims from his plane?

OR is he setting the lions on them?

What is his place in this?

Don't tell people not to at least ask. Nobody knows who is going to be fed to those economic lions next in the SBC, do they?
'Course people care. They have families to feed.

We do know ONE thing, don't we:
Patterson and his family are certainly eating well and they let EVERYONE know it. So talk to him about why he flaunts this.

Leave those suffering people alone to ask what this man is really all about: they deserve to know.

Who are YOU to judge them for asking questions and seeking help from Wade and trying, somehow, to survive? And yes, God is watching.

Greg Alford said...

Curious / Anon, or (whoever I am having this conversation with)

I am not sure who your sources are for your information on what Calvin believed, but from what I can read in your comments, whoever your sources are they appear to have influenced your opinion of Calvin quite negatively. If your sources for what Calvin believed are books written “against” Calvinism, like those by Dave Hunt, or Wiley Richards then I can understand your bias.

I would encourage you to let Calvin take the stand to defend himself by reading some of his works… I would not ask you to read Calvin’s Institutes (at least not to begin with), but I would ask you to read “The Bondage and Liberation of the Will” by Calvin”. You can get a copy from Monergismbooks.com for $24.99. It is only 303 pages long and it will open your eyes to what Calvin really believed.

In it you will find that Calvin did not deny the “free” choice of man in choosing God at all. Actually the sub-title of the book is “A Defense of the Orthodox Doctrine of Human Choice Against Pighius”

Here is a little bit of the description:


The Bondage and Liberation of the Will is undoubtedly the most significant of Calvin's works hitherto not translated in English. This is in striking contrast to Luther's study on the same topic, which is one of his best-known publications." This is Calvin's "fullest treatment of the relation between grace and free will, and contains important material not found elsewhere in his writings. It also contains far more discussion of the early church fathers than does any other of Calvin's works, apart from the Institutes. It is high time that this major work is made available to those whose knowledge of Calvin is confined to English translations" .


Grace Always,

Anonymous said...

GREG,

You wrote: "Calvin did not deny the “free” choice of man in choosing God at all"

So, are you saying that you believe that Calvin was not a five-point 'TULIP' Calvinist?

I have actually heard others claim this.

Personally, if I thought Calvinism totally denied the moral law of God that is implanted in the hearts of ALL mankind;

and if I believed that Calvin thought God deprived mankind of choice AND of help from Him (offered to all mankind) to overcome the parts of their natures that were weakened by sin,
THEN,

I would find nothing to admire in Calvin's claims.

There are as many interpretations of Calvin's doctrines as there are Calvinists, it seems. So, to say one disagrees with Calvinism is too narrow a statement.


Perhaps it is a question of who gets CREDIT?
Does a human 'believe' of their own free will or not?
Is faith a 'choice'? Or was it Calvinistically hard-wired by God into our psyche at our creation.
Are we in control of our response to God, or is He pulling the puppet strings?
Are we sinners who know better, yet choose to sin? OR Are we sinners who were hard-wired at our creation as 'unregenerates' with no hope or help from our Maker, in which case, our 'sin' is not a choice at all for us, but His Choice for us? That's scary stuff.

Or is the answer somewhere in between: maybe just a little bit beyond our ability to understand in this world, Greg?
Some Calvinists don't accept that we see 'as through a glass darkly', do they? They think they know ALL the answers now: interesting they are so sure they are the 'elect' that many of them have great contempt for the 'others'. That's real Christian, or maybe its opposite.
Very scary stuff, Greg.

What some believe is this: the mysteries of God's mercy and of our redemption are more powerful than the limited vision of some of Calvin's followers who do not allow for God's infinite mercies to all mankind.

I'm glad you have the peace of mind that knowing YOU are one of the 'elect' must bring.
Perhaps you need this reassurance. It is said that people seek out the religion that matches their needs psychologically:
in their needs for immediate gratification of reassurance;
in the way they see themselves as different from others;
and in the way they see 'the others":
perfectly human response,
but is it spiritual?
Is it Christ-like?

There are too many verses of scripture that have to be either ignored or pushed to the side for many Christians to be 'tulip' Calvinists.

simplegifts3 said...

So, are you saying that you believe that Calvin was not a five-point 'TULIP' Calvinist?

Jumping in here, I was surprised to discover that Calvin was, in all likelihood, only a four pointer as far as TULIP goes. To be specific, he taught everything but limited atonement.

Anonymous said...

Who was it that came up with 'limited atonement'?
How did they support this doctrine?

simplegifts3 said...

Calvin:
"IT IS TRUE THAT THE EFFECT OF HIS DEATH DOES NOT COME TO THE WHOLE WORLD. NEVERTHELESS, SINCE IT IS NOT IN US TO DISCERN BETWEEN THE RIGHTEOUS AND THE SINNERS THAT GO TO DESTRUCTION, BUT THAT JESUS CHRIST HAS SUFFERED HIS DEATH AND PASSION AS MUCH FOR THEM AS FOR US, IT THEREFORE BEHOOVES US TO LABOR TO BRING EVERY MAN TO SALVATION, THAT THE GRACE OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST MAY BE AVAILABLE TO THEM."

simplegifts3 said...

Re: Limited Atonement, I don't know much about Beza, but he was Calvin's successor, and it was he who developed that doctrine as an extrapolation of the other four points. So I've been told.

simplegifts3 said...

OK, here's some more of Calvin's quotes. This is hotly debated, but I don't see how anyone can claim Calvin himself believed in limited atonement after reading these. What is in brackets are the comments of a friend of mine:

"SO WE MUST BEWARE, OR SOULS REDEEMED BY CHRIST MAY PERISH BY OUR CARELESSNESS, FOR THEIR SALVATION TO SOME DEGREE WAS PUT INTO OUR HANDS BY GOD."


"WE OUGHT TO HAVE GREAT CONCERN FOR THOSE THAT HAVE BEEN REDEEMED WITH THE BLOOD OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. IF WE SEE SOULS WHICH HAVE BEEN SO PRECIOUS TO GOD GO TO PERDITION, AND WE MAKE NOTHING OF IT, THAT IS TO DESPISE THE BLOOD OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST."


"GOD COMMENDS TO US THE SALVATION OF ALL MEN WITHOUT EXCEPTION [NOT "ALL KINDS OF MEN WITHOUT DISTINCTION," AS CALVINISTS WOULD HAVE IT], EVEN AS CHRIST SUFFERED FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD."


"PASTORS [WHO DO NOT EAGERLY PERFORM THEIR DUTY] HAVE PROFANED THE SACRED BLOOD OF THE SON OF GOD, AND HAVE MADE USELESS THE REDEMPTION ACQUIRED BY HIM. ...IT IS A HIDEOUS AND MONSTROUS CRIME IF, BY OUR IDLENESS, NOT ONLY THE DEATH OF CHRIST BECOMES WORTHLESS, BUT ALSO THE FRUIT OF IT IS DESTROYED AND PERISHES."


"CHRIST OFFERED HIMSELF AS A VICTIM FOR THE SALVATION OF THE HUMAN
RACE."


"OUR RECONCILIATION WITH GOD IS FREE, FOR THE ONLY PRICE PAID FOR IT IS CHRIST'S DEATH. ...THE WORD 'MANY' IS USED [IN MATT. 20:28], NOT FOR A DEFINITE NUMBER, BUT FOR A LARGE NUMBER, IN THAT HE SETS HIMSELF OVER AGAINST ALL OTHERS. AND THIS IS THE MEANING ALSO IN ROMANS 5:15, WHERE PAUL IS NOT SPEAKING OF PART OF MANKIND, BUT OF THE WHOLE HUMAN RACE."


"WE MUST UNDERSTAND THAT AS LONG AS CHRIST REMAINS OUTSIDE OF US, AND WE ARE SEPARATED FROM HIM, ALL THAT HE HAS SUFFERED AND DONE FOR THE SALVATION OF THE HUMAN RACE REMAINS USELESS AND OF NO VALUE TO US."

Rex Ray said...

Since the topic has strayed some…got this email today:

“The wrapping that had been on His head was not lying with the linen cloths but was folded up in a separate place by itself.” (John 20:7 Holman)

Why was the ‘napkin’ FOLDED?

A servant knew by Hebrew tradition if his master left the table with his napkin wadded up, it was OK to clean the table because his master was through eating.

On the other hand if his master left with his napkin folded, he was coming back to finish his meal.

Need I say more?

Anonymous said...

Dear SIMPLE GIFTS 3: you apparently are correct about Calvin, at least at the END of his life repudiating the 'unlimited atonement' doctrine.

I found this:


"John Calvin Witnesses For "UNLIMITED ATONEMENT" In His Last Will, And Farewells

Calvin's "LAST WILL AND TESTAMENT, April 25, 1564" as printed in the History of the Christian Church, Vol. 8, pp. 828-29, by Philip Schaff [as published by Eerdmans in Grand Rapids, 1972], states: "I testify also and declare, that I suppliantly beg of Him, that He may be pleased so to was and purify me in the blood which my Sovereign Redeemer HAS SHED FOR THE SINS OF THE HUMAN RACE, that under His shadow I may be able to stand at the judgment-seat...."(op. cit., p 829). Here is a clear testimony made by John Calvin who was about to die, in 1564, that He, at least at the end of his life, had come to believe most definitely that the Lord Jesus Christ "SHED" his precious "BLOOD" "FOR THE SINS OF THE HUMAN RACE "

Apparently he also spoke for unlimited atonement in some of his scripture commentaries.

So, apparently, 5 point TULIP is not representative of Calvin's beliefs in the matter of atonement.

Anonymous said...

Let's get back on topic, people.
We can continue the Calvinist/Arminian/Pelagius thing another time when Wade provides the opportunity.

Rex Ray, tell us about the scripture and what you think the meaning is.
Good that you know about the customs of the day that cast light on the meanings of scripture. :)

Anonymous said...

Dear Simple Gifts 3,

I'm glad you explained about Calvin and the 'atonement' thing.
I know some people in the Dutch Reformed Church in New Jersey who are such very fine Christians. They are heavily into serving the less fortunate in the community in Christ's Name.
I have never heard anything from these people that demeans the power of God's Mercy or the power of Christ's Redemption.
If anything, these reformed people personify beautifully the teachings of Jesus.

No sign at all of 5 Point Tulip
'attitude' in these reformed people whose church was influenced by Calvinist teachings.
They are Christians first, and, if Calvinists second, but not 5 pointers. They show too much active love for others and too much humility for that. :)

simplegifts3 said...

The Ten Boom family comes to mind.

Anonymous said...

BACK ON TOPIC,

We could compare Patterson to the great Harry Truman who said,

THE BUCK STOPS HERE.

Only, in Patterson's case, you have to understand that he gives the saying a different 'spin'.

Patterson keeps HIS bucks.

It's the faculty who bear the budget cut burdens of responsibility to balance the SBTS budget.

Anonymous said...

Lydia:

I am talking about the specifics listed in Wade's original post. I am not going to make a judgment about this stuff at this time without more info or involvement. I believe that the administration and trustees at the institution are responsible. While I do not have a chef or a dog walker or some of the other things mentioned, I am not going to let the fact that I don't say it is always wrong.

Anony: You are right about the conscience. I am just way too cautious to always identify the Holy Spirit as the mover and not my own spirit.

Oh, and I didn't mention that my former brother in law did some work on the SWBTS President's mansion back when he was in seminary there in the late 80s or early 90s when Dr. Dilday was President. He was quite critical of Dr. Dilday and his family for living in such opulence when the seminary profs and students lived much more meagerly. I treated his complaints against Dr. Dilday then (and as Rex Ray can tell you, I am not a big fan of Dr. Dilday) as I treat the complaints about personal spending against the Pattersons now. I take a "wait and see" approach.

It might be different if I were on the Board at SWBTS, but I am not. So, I am making judgments about things I know very little about.

I am not comfortable making such judgments. Others are. That's the difference.

Oh, and also, I HAVE been to Southern Seminary and I have seen the mansion in which Dr. Mohler and his family reside.

I do not know the cost of the property (it was bought years ago and many presidents of Southern have lived there), but I am sure that it is expensive to operate and maintain.

In my opinion, it is worth every penny. I am not on the Board at Southern but suspect that I would support maintaining that property.

Others would have a different opinion. Dr. Mohler can live in a ranch stlye 3 bedroom brick home with everyone else. But then, we return to the mentality that I think is penny wise and pound foolish.

It also reminds me of something Leonard Ravenhill once said. He was a famous and very direct preacher. One time I heard him say that people who had missed a revival meeting to stay home and watch the World Series were more interested in the World Series than a "Serious World." Upon touring the religious art collection at Bob Jones University (which I understand is quite beautiful and very, very valuable, but I have never seen it), Leonard Ravenhill is said to have quipped, "Why don't they sell all of this and give it to missions?"

Well, that is the mentality to which many in the Christian community are given, and it is one that I do not care to join in on. It is petty, it is naive, it is ugly and it is foolish.

I cannot make a judgment about SWBTS seminary based on the limited info that I have, and have said that. Time will tell all of these things.

But until then, I am not going to join the party.

I think that I have said all that I can say on this. I know that I will not persuade anyone, but merely have tried to express my own feelings. I will beg off on answering what I am sure will be some doozy retorts.

Unless, of course, Ron West gives me any info on the issue that he and I have written about.

Happy Hunting to all.

Louis

Anonymous said...

MIRACLE AT THE SBTS:
a prophecy for the future

As of tomorrow, imagine the following:

P. has a heart-transplant: ie. a spiritual change of heart.

He fires the whole menage over at the "Manor' and hires the wives of students to work there.

He helps organize a day-care co-op at the Manor under the supervision of Dorothy, who is now working and contributing her salary to benefit the professors' retirement recovery fund.

Patterson puts his cowboy boots and Stetson on e-bay for sale: proceeds to go to the retirement funds of professors. People respond: millions are raised.
(everyone wants to find out what it is like to walk in P's boots)

Dorothy and the wives at the 'Presidential Residence' offer hot meals to the starving poor students who were living on Top Ramens and noodle meals.
This is a miracle for the students who can now focus on their studies instead of their growling stomachs.

Dorothy begins to lose weight thanks to the firing of all those pastry chefs. She is thrilled.

The list goes on and on as miracle after miracle unfolds and all to the glory of God. :)

PROFIT PROPHET:
where thy treasure is, there will thy heart be also.

COULD IT HAPPEN?
Sure, it could.
ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING . . . :)

There are no limits to what God can do. :)

Anonymous said...

LOUIS wrote:

Anony: You are right about the conscience. I am just way too cautious to always identify the Holy Spirit as the mover and not my own spirit.

We can all understand that.
The thing is, it's that 'twinge' that won't be ignored, or forgotten, or rationalized.
It's usually not even in our own nature to feel that type of twinge.
After a while, Christians come to know it as the still, quiet Voice of the Lord speaking to our spirits.
Praying about it should help you to distinguish any confusion.

Honestly, a lot of people know right away when the Spirit kicks tail. Yes, the Comforter can kick tail when needed, but then, there is peacefulness when we respond in obedience.

Louis, don't worry about it.
The Holy Spirit will help you sort this out. His isn't called the 'Counselor' for nothing. :)

Anonymous said...

"In my opinion, it is worth every penny. I am not on the Board at Southern but suspect that I would support maintaining that property."

It would be instructive to hear why you think it is worth every penny to maintain such things. To have status with the world?

"Others would have a different opinion. Dr. Mohler can live in a ranch stlye 3 bedroom brick home with everyone else. But then, we return to the mentality that I think is penny wise and pound foolish."

Why is that pound foolish? Because of how it looks?

"It also reminds me of something Leonard Ravenhill once said. He was a famous and very direct preacher. One time I heard him say that people who had missed a revival meeting to stay home and watch the World Series were more interested in the World Series than a "Serious World." Upon touring the religious art collection at Bob Jones University (which I understand is quite beautiful and very, very valuable, but I have never seen it), Leonard Ravenhill is said to have quipped, "Why don't they sell all of this and give it to missions?""

Ravenhill was wrong? Where your treasure is...

"ell, that is the mentality to which many in the Christian community are given, and it is one that I do not care to join in on. It is petty, it is naive, it is ugly and it is foolish."

Again, it would be instructive to understand why you think Christians expecting our organizations to be lean and not given to grand opulance is petty, naive, ugly and foolish.

You must look with disdain upon those who are the least. Do you wonder why God has not blessed them like he has you? YOu have also communicated much disdain for what you refer to as 'uneducated' Christians.

Louis, I fear you belong to the 'organization' and not the 'organism'. Your heart is pretty hard, brother.

Lydia

BTW: Patterson made huge and very expensive renovations to the President's house so what you say about your brother thinking it was grand then makes me wonder why it was necessary to make it larger and more opulant.

WatchingHISstory said...

anon
It was the Dutch Church that created the TULIP at the synod of Dort in 1610 in response to the remonstrants who somewhat represented Arminius' views.

They presented five items and the synod responded to each with a response. Limited atonement was a clear distinction of this celebrated synod. It was not Calvin and Luther seemed to be even clearer than Calvin on limited atonement.
The name Calvin just became attached to the truths of grace called TULIP.

Greg Alford said...

I really did not mean to get us off topic with my Pelagian comment… so anyone who wishes to continue the discussion on Calvinism or Pelagianism can do so here.

Curious / Anon, …you ask a lot of question that I cannot answer in short order… please consider reading “the Bondage and Liberation of the Will”

Grace Always,

Anonymous said...

Dear Watching HisStory,

Who was it in the Dutch Church that created TULIP ? (and how appropriate that the name 'tulip' and the 'Dutch' are connected, although I don't like TULIP :)

What I do know about my Dutch Reformed friends is the depth of their commitment to CHRIST and the least of His. I don't think they see themselves as the 'elect' above others. I think they see themselves as able to help others.
The group I know help many who do not share their faith, and they do it generously as well as volunteering their time and their strength. I'm honored to know these dear people.

I could never put them in the same category as some of the people I have heard praising the 'tulip' doctrine. It just wouldn't make any sense. No comparison at all.

Thanks for responding.
By the way, Corrie Ten Boom's family was mentioned. I also thought of the woman who tried to help Anne Frank's family: Mies Geip.

Apparently, the tulips in Holland are blooming but the TULIP doctrines didn't take very deep root there.

God bless the Ten Booms and Mies.
The Dutch people have done much good in the Kingdom of God. :)

Anonymous said...

I just saw the Christmas Video.

Well, that's not entirely true,
I saw as much as I could watch knowing that at the same time, people had or were going to be laid off.

No compassion. To show this kind of materialism, at the Season of Christ's Birth, with no regard for others who won't have much of a Christmas.
No compassion.
What kind of people are these?

Rex Ray said...

Anonymous,
I did not know about the Hebrew custom of the napkin being wadded up or folded until this morning’s email.

I hate ‘good stories’ on the internet that are not true.

I checked Scopes.com and found nothing. I will regret if I have passed on a lie. I was hoping some Hebrew scholars might verify the custom.

I do know Jesus came back from the grave, and will come again.

Anonymous said...

This comes from someone's blog.
Her name is Sharon Rose.
She is not Jewish, though.

"The Gospel of John (20:7) tells us that the napkin, which was placed over the face of Jesus, was not just thrown aside like the grave clothes. The Bible takes an entire verse to tell us that the napkin was neatly folded, and was placed at the head of that stony coffin. Early Sunday morning, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene came to the tomb and found that the stone had been rolled away from the entrance. She ran and found Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved. She said, 'They have taken the Lord's body out of thetomb, and I don't know where they have put him!' Peter and the other disciple ran to the tomb to see. The other disciple outran Peter and got there first. He stooped and looked in and saw the linen cloth lying there, but he didn't go in. Then Simon Peter arrived and went inside. He also noticed the linen wrappings lying there, while the cloth that had covered Jesus' head was folded up and lying to the side. Was that important? Absolutely! Is it really significant? Yes! In order to understand the significance of the folded napkin, you have to understand a little bit about Hebrew tradition of that day. The folded napkin had to do with the Master and Servant, and every Jewish boy knew this tradition. When the servant set the dinner table for the master, he made sure that it was exactly the way the master wanted it. The table was furnished perfectly, and then the servant would wait, just out of sight, until the master had finished eating, and the servant would not dare touch that table, until the master was finished. Now if the master were done eating, he would rise from the table, wipe his fingers, his mouth, and clean his beard, and would wad up that napkin and toss it onto the table. The servant would then know to clear the table. For in those days, the wadded napkin meant, 'I'm done'. But if the master got up from the table, and folded his napkin, and laid it beside his plate, the servant would not dare touch the table, because..... The folded napkin meant, 'I'm coming back!' He is Coming Back!! "

WatchingHISstory said...

"I could never put them in the same category as some of the people I have heard praising the 'tulip' doctrine. It just wouldn't make any sense. No comparison at all."

Now madam I think your sweet little mind is given to irrational emotional thinking which is not a characteristic of most five point Calvinist. Do most of your Arminian friends here in America display the same love for Christ and others as your Holland friends?

I suggest that perhaps the practical lives of your Dutch friends are the result of their rich Calvinist heritage.

I praise the TULIP doctrine and I am active in mass evangelism to the non-Christian masses and I am taking two of my non Calvinist friends down to the homeless shelter to introduce them to a ministry of feeding the hungry homeless.

I don't want to be a smart alec but just shed the emotive thinking and search objectively for the truth of Calvinism and don't listen to anti-Calvinist who can be very closed minded and not very evangelistic.

WatchingHISstory said...

Corrie ten Boom and her family were not Catholics — like my family of origin for the last 400 years, they were good Dutch Calvinists — but their lives were as eloquent and ringing an expression of the truth attested by Pius as one could hope to find in Christians of any stripe. - By Steven D. Greydanus, National Catholic Review

Corrie was also a Charismatic as well as Calvinist. She disapproved of premillenial views of the rapture. She was a great Christian with a rich history of helping people.

Anonymous said...

For REX RAY,

Hi, it's me, L's

There is a part of a 'seder' meal in Judaism, where a piece of matzoh (unleavened bread) is torn off and wrapped in a napkin to be consumed AT THE END OF THE MEAL.
I'm not sure if this might or might not be related to the cloth placed over Christ's face in the tomb, but it is noted that the seder meal is not concluded until the matzoh is consumed that was kept wrapped in the napkin.

Here is something from the directions.

"Take larger part, wrap it in napkin and save for the conclusion of the meal. ..."

This is interesting. Seder meals don't just 'memorialize' passover, they are a re-ennactment for the people present. I thought that all Protestants had lost the connection between Christ's Sacrifice and the Jewish Passover.
Maybe this legend is somehow left over from that "connection" which orthodox Christians believe in, wherein Jesus is the new 'Lamb of God" crucified as an offering for our salvation.

BTW: the way the lamb was prepared for the Passover meal was to be sacrificed and placed on skewers 'so that the lamb took on the shape of a cross'.
Lots of interesting connections that are not well known by most folks.

Rex, do you know the story of Veronica from tradition and the image of Christ that was supposed to have appeared on the cloth she used to wife his face as he bore his cross towards Calvary? It's just an ancient legend, so old no one knows exactly its origen.

Anonymous said...

correction: 'to WIPE His Face"
sorry! typing too fast. L's

Anonymous said...

Dear WATCHING HISTORY:

Sorry if you took it in that light.
What I noted in my New Jersy friends, many of Dutch descent, who are of the Dutch reformed faith is this:

they are heavily involved in 'good works' in the name of Christ.
I did not get it that TULIP people believed in doing 'good works' as an active part of their faith. So, I may be wrong about that assumption. It does seem that the TULIP doctrine rejects the idea that Christ asked his followers to help the less fortunate by actually DOING SOMETHING FOR THEM.
Did I misunderstand? It could happen. The TULIP thing is very complicated to understand.

WatchingHISstory said...

anon

your response is genuine and i appreciate it.

I myself am Calvinist, unashamembly so and do not believe in the free offer to everyone. I beelieve that attonment is provided effectually to the elect alone. My faith is Christ drives me everyday to bear witness to everybody I meet with out distinction. I witness and the Holy spirit uses means to win the souls. specifically my faith drives me to especially bear witness to the less fortunate where ever I go. My faith is patterned after Christ's anointed life to the captives, lost, poor, lame, infirmed etc.
This is not the result of discipline but the Holy Spirit who creates a strong mandate.

The result for me is an unbelievable joy!

Anonymous said...

Dear Watching History,

Thank you for sharing with me.
I have had the wrong impression of how the Calvinist doctrines affect those who believe in them.
I am beginning to understand that I misjudged these believers.

Thanks again for helping.

WatchingHISstory said...

anon
You are too gracious

Rex Ray said...

Shame on you Rex Ray; you didn’t look hard enough! Google says:

The Message in the Neatly Folded Napkin in Jesus' Tomb-Fiction!

Summary of the Rumor:
According to this forwarded email, the head covering over the body of Jesus Christ in the grave was a neatly "folded napkin." It goes on to say that among Jews of the time a master would let his servants know whether he was finished eating or coming back to the table by the way he left his napkin. If he tossed it aside, he was finished. If he folded it, he was not finished and would return. The hidden message in the story is that by laying his "napkin" aside and neatly folded Jesus was saying he was coming back.

The Truth:
We have checked numerous Bible study sources and have found nothing about this alleged Jewish custom of the folded napkins. We did not find any Bible scholars who have used this story and illustration about the meaning of the folded napkin.

Additionally we talked with a Jewish rabbi friend of TruthOrFiction.com's who has been a life-long Orthodox Jew, a Jewish scholar, and lives in Jerusalem, Israel, and he said he'd never heard of it

The only references to this story that we found are from Internet postings and emails that seem to have originated in 2007.

L’s,
I’ve never heard of the story of Veronica and the image of Christ on the cloth she used to wipe his face. I’m not much of a historian as I’ve just proved.

Thanks for trying to help me out. I’ll be more careful from now on.

Anonymous said...

Hi REX RAY,

It's me, L's

I was thinking about your legend of the 'folded napkin'.

Here is something that may be related in some way. It comes from an Episcopal website:

"Altar Linens
Altar linens are most often made of linen, because Jesus’ graveclothes were linen.

Chalice Pall
The chalice pall is a square cloth, usually seven by seven inches, with a cardboard or plastic stiffener. It is called a pall because it has the same function as a funeral pall. It protects the bread and wine from insects."

Anonymous said...

REX RAY: It's me, L's and I found something else, but I'm not sure about how it connects or if it connects to your story about the 'folded napkin' legend.

"When we are baptized, the Easter candle is lit. The resurrection of Christ foreshadows our own resurrection. Baptism incorporates us into the body of Christ and gives us a share in his resurrection. Whenever the baptismal waters are poured, the Easter candle burns bright. Parents and godparents light a baptismal candle from the Easter candle. They accept the responsibility of keeping the flame of faith alive in the heart of the newly baptized. Parents carry this candle home, where it may shine on baptismal anniversaries to symbolize the first news of the risen Christ.

We also light the Easter candle at FUNERALS. In the midst of our grief, we call upon the symbols which enliven our faith. Several images of baptism reappear at the funeral; the sprinkling with holy water, the placing of a WHITE LINEN PALL (like a white garment) over the casket and the lighting of the Easter candle. Christ rose from the dead so that we too might pass from death to life. Every death reminds us of Easter. And every Easter gives up hope that death is not the end, but the passage from darkness to eternal light."

Rex, this is another reference to a linen 'pall' or 'grave-cloth'.
It is used at a funeral, but the Easter Candle celebrates Christ's resurrection and our hope of eternal life in Him.

There is no mention of 'coming back' other than the fact that this is ALWAYS mentioned when this prayer is said:

CHRIST DIED.
CHRIST IS RISEN.
CHRIST WILL COME AGAIN.

These three parts are always prayed in unison.
So maybe the linen funeral 'pall' has always had a connection with Christ's victory over death and Christ's return to us. ?

Couldn't find anything else specific to help verify the legend, but I love the story and I agree with you:
CHRIST WILL COME AGAIN. :) L's

Anonymous said...

Hi REX RAY,

The story about Veronica is NOT found in the Holy Writings. It is a traditional story that has come down to us through the ages verbally. There is NO EVIDENCE that it is true from scripture.

The story goes, that one of the times Our Lord fell on His way to Calvary, a young woman ran to him a wiped the blood and sweat from His Face with a cloth.

Later, when she looked at the cloth, on it was the image of Our Lord's Face.

Her name was not known, but she has been called 'Veronica' from the terms: Vera Icon : meaning,
"True Image".

It's a nice story. And a source of embarassment for me. Once I was at the home of a friend named Veronica. Her family was VERY religious and read the Bible together and prayed together every evening. (I'm not sure what denomination they were.)
All the children had names from the Bible except for Veronica. I mentioned this and they looked at me like I was crazy. (you know I have big mouth) Well, turned out, their mother thought the name Veronia was in the Bible.

I never learn. (I was about fourteen years old then. I should know better now.)

Another legend that is from ancient times is about St. Christopher: he is supposed to have carried Christ across a river.
So he is known as the 'Christ-bearer' or 'Christopher' from the Greek for 'Christ bearer.'
I like any name that has 'Christ' in it, so I like this legend. :)

I think I like any legends that point to Christ. :) L's

Anonymous said...

To anon 01:07:00 PM
If you to continue to attack then you will be destroyed by each other. That is quote staight from Galatians. If you feel that somehow I am judging posts that is NOT true. It is merely a post that attacking Patterson is NOT the correct solution not really a post defending him. I posted earlier that the stock market endowments in the last year contributed much more to this dilema than Patterson. One can always petition the trustees if you feel as such to have him removed. Personally, I don't understand or know such procedures.
From anon 12:21:00 PM 2009

Anonymous said...

Petition the trustees?
Petition the 'Pals of Patterson'?

THROW ALL THE BUMS OUT.

(imagine speculating in the stock market with funds reserved for the Seminary) Please !
Anyone ever heard of certificates of deposit instead of speculation?
Poor stewardship, if 'stewardship' it was.

The root of 'trustee' is 'trust'.

THROW OUT THE LOT OF 'EM.
And get some new trustees that the faculty could call on for help, instead of having to call Wade.

GIVE THEM ALL THE 'BOOT' AND THE SOONER THE BETTER FOR THE SBTS.

Now, how's that for an attack?
BTW, anything you want to say in support of the students, the faculty, and good child care for the Seminary? Thought not.

Anonymous said...

Total up the salaries of the 'trustees', the Pattersons, their personal staffs, and what is costs to run P. Manor:

Lay off the lot and close the Manor until the budget is balanced.

The seminary will not lose any faculty and the students will not have to suffer for lack of child care they can afford.

Top heavy expenses?
Are these turkeys REALLY WORTH all that money?
They are not worth one hair on one child's head that had to leave the day care center.
Unload the whole black-hatted, black-hearted lot:
Good old-fashioned round-up.

Any reform of this crew will have to be 'grass-roots'. The leadership is too entrenched and the 'old boys club' will protect their interests.

Rex Ray said...

Hi L’s,
You wrote: “I was thinking about your legend of the ‘folded napkin’.”

‘Legends’ are supposed to be true. Jesus said we were set free by truth; not by untruth or fairy-tales.

It’s true the head cloth was folded. Man does not know if Jesus, angles, or God folded it or why. We can do a lot of guessing, but that’s all we can do. It’s a lie to say it was folded because of a custom that never existed.

I’m sorry I pasted this falsehood on that was started a short time ago by some ‘do-gooder’. In my opinion, they do more harm than good.

Anonymous said...

The whole thing shows the similarity of Baptist leaders with the television preachers--to live luxuriously off of the people by different method of preaching but the same end of living.

Bo Siau La

Batchaps said...

SBTS = Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, Louisville, KY

SWBTS = Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Ft. Worth, TX

Let's keep the abbreviations correct.

Russ+
SWBTS 01'

Anonymous said...

To anon 11:32:00 PM 2009

Hmmm, ..."kick" em all out? ..and your comment on defense of the people you know not anything of WHO I hang with, WHOM I talked with, or how I have been PERSONALLY affected by this and abusive ministerial leaders as well. Let wisdom prevail is all I am saying. One should know the difference between judging and procedurally handling a matter and rash "condemnation."

Anonymous said...

Adding to the last entry:
Has anybody seen the movie Luther with Joseph Fiennes? This might clear of some matters.

Anonymous said...

I think your comments about the Patterson's personal lives sounds a lot like gossip. Your're just dishing to everyone how much you know about them and how you think they out to run things. I don't think the way everyone is bashing them is very edifying. There are always two sides to the story but on this blog everyone always thinks there's just one - Wade's story.

Liz

Anonymous said...

From anon 09:33:00 AM 2009

I will say that Wade has been good in trying to hearing everyone stories. I commend wholeheartedly in what he trying to achieve. Solomon states that a man who truly fears God will avoid in avoid in following into the extremes.

Anonymous said...

Liz: the Christmas video is not 'gossip'
Consider it a 'visual aid'.

After watching it, imagine the Christmas that the faculty and students had: some with pink slips, some with no place to take care of their children that was affordable, some with their retirements jeapardized.

Now: try contrasting the two different kinds of Christmases.

Now. You have just dealt with a lesson in CONTRASTS, not indulged in gossip.

REALITY CHECK FOR MANY:
that video and their 'pink slips'

No, not gossip.

Over a week in Germany? $$$$$$$$$$

Anonymous said...

When Christ threw the money-changers out of the temple, wasn't it because they were
PROFITING EXCESSIVELY
on sacred ground?

If Christ returned today to SWTS,
WHAT WOULD HE DO?

Maybe it will take His Return to show people how to have spines again in the face of something that profanes what exists in His Name.

Anonymous said...

What will the impact be on the SWTS of these changes?

How much of Patterson's presence at SWTS has led to these changes?

We know who loses.
Does anyone come out ahead here?
Is there ANYONE or ANY GROUP that remains unaffected by the decisions that engineered these changes?

How does SWTS continue to 'benefit' under Patterson?

How does SWTS continue
to 'benefit' Patterson?

What changes at SWTS are still possible?
What changes do you think are prudent FOR THE SEMINARY?

How have the trustees protected the seminary?
How have the trustees served the personal interests of the Pattersons?

What was the size of the endowment funds prior to Patterson.
What was the size of the funds just prior to the economic crash.
How much money is left of what was donated FOR THE SEMINARY?
How much of that money ended up as perks and salaries for the trustees and the Pattersons?
Look at percentages.
Can you?
Is there any transparency?
Is there any accountability?

VIGILANCE:
constantly watching over,
protecting, not neglecting for a moment, protective caring that is constant.

Who was assigned to be 'vigilant' and watch over the SWTS?

Anonymous said...

What would a Christian leader need to hide from the Church?
'confidential records'?

Of course, everything at any SBC enterprise must be transparent and accountable to the whole Church?

Bring it all out into the light.
Then the SBC, as a whole people, can make good decisions.

Darkness, closed doors, lots of money and power, human nature.
Ingrediants for unwholesomeness.

Accountability, TRANSPARENCY, shared 'power' among all SB people, mixed with a good dose of humility and responsibility:
Might better serve the Lord.

What changes need to be made in the interest of serving Christ?

Who will resist those changes?

Find those people quickly and then 'throw the money-changers out of the temple'

No wonder they got rid of that phrase about Jesus' Words and Actions in the BF&M 2000.

Too good a role model for Christians, was Jesus?

Well, you reap what you sow.

John Fariss said...

Re: costs of maintaining presidential mansions: when Randall Lolley was president of SEBTS, he asked the trustees to sell the mansion there--I think this was about the time Wake Forest was beginning to look attractive to folks as a suburb of Raleigh--or at least keep it only for ceremonial functions, and let him buy a smaller, more efficient, and more "livable" house of his own. They refused. And while I am not sure exactly when this happened, I know it was after 1979 and I think after the CR movement began adding trustees to the SEBTS board.

John Fariss

Anonymous said...

So CR movement has stacked the trustee boards.

Grassroots clean-up will be the ONLY way to make things right again.

Is it possible? Anyone out there with a back-bone?

Anonymous said...

Cordial SWBTS meeting contrast to previous session
‘Peace has been secured’ board chairman says on issue with trustee.
Written by Tammi Reed Ledbetter, News Editor
Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007

(excerpt)
"Trustees emerged from executive session April 3 having passed a policy that clarifies the responsibilities and duties of a trustee.
Meeting behind CLOSED DOORS for more than half an hour, board members reviewed a memorandum that explained the legal status of the seminary, its relationship to the SBC and those outside the institutions.

THEIR NEW POLICY LIMITS THE EXPRESSION OF PUBLIC OBJECTION BY INDIVIDUAL TRUSTEES TO
BOARD-APPROVED ACTIONS AS WELL AS CRITICISM OF SISTER ENTITIES.


As a Texas non-profit corporation, Southwestern Seminary is a private organization not bound by the legal requirements of a public body “required to be open to public scrutiny,” the statement reads. That said, the policy concludes, “A trustee’s accountability to the Southern Baptist Convention is to protect the seminary and its mission as approved by the Convention. It is the SEMINARY'S WELFARE that a trustee must put first and foremost, not withstanding any of a trustee’s personal desires and beliefs.”

Despite this priority, the trustee’s accountability does not limit his expression of doctrinal or moral convictions “as long as the trustee does not suggest a specific link to trustee or seminary policy and action,” the document added.


A set of 10 duties and responsibilities are spelled out, leading with the primary charge of setting policy which the administration implements. The board approves the BUDGET, authorizes an AUDIT OF FINANCES, SELECTS THE PRESIDENT, senior administrators, deans and faculty, and adopts curriculum offerings.


Other sections of the policy stipulate prompt and cooperative responses to officer requests, preservation of the board’s autonomy from influence that fails to utilize appropriate channels that allow the full board’s consideration, and a duty to enhance the public perception of the kingdom of God, the seminary, the SBC and its agencies.



Several instructions address confidentiality, expecting trustees to keep all materials for private use, avoiding even the appearance of leaking any such information."



AVOID EVEN THE APPEARANCE OF LEAKING ANY SUCH INFORMATION. . . . . . .


COMMENT: at least they are open about being 'not open' concerning how the money is handled.

One thing we know, the Pattersons live VERY WELL, and SOMEONE authorized all this indulgence.
NO WONDER they are told to keep quiet.

The answers are found in what happened to the MONEY.

With this crew, it's the money that was important, they are allowed, it says, to speak publicly on matters of faith.

Who appointed the trustees?
Who are the trustees?
What are their salaries?
Can 'the President' operate over their heads 'at his discretion'?
What is the President's salarie?
What are the costs of all of his perks?
Who authorized the spending on all of these 'perks'?
Who authorized all of the travel instead of telecommunications meetings?
What happened to the budget that it went so far over this year?
What kind of monies are available for the seminary for next year?
Are they in safe hands?
How do you know?
Whose job is it to keep oversight on the President and the Trustees of the SWBTS?

Anonymous said...

" “A trustee’s accountability to the Southern Baptist Convention is to protect the seminary and its mission as approved by the Convention. "

ACCOUNTABILITY TO THE SBC . . .

Okay. Let's see what they do.
But don't hold your breath.

And look at your wills. Who is it that you are endowing with your money? Get some answers, folks, for HIS SAKE, get some answers.

Anonymous said...

"Patterson also said the seminary was doing well financially. He said that there would be new capital expenditures in the future, such as those for a new chapel, and a building to house the Roy Fish School of Missions and Evangelism and The College at Southwestern.

“This chapel will not be built with Cooperative Program funds, an increase in fees for students, a decrease in faculty salaries or through any campaign,” Patterson said.

Greg Kingry, vice president for business administration, said the architects and administration had completed the design process for the 3,500-seat, 106,000-square foot chapel. He also said the plans for a building that will house the evangelism and missions school and the college are in the process of being formulated.

“We don’t want to turn a spade of dirt, as Dr. Patterson has said, until we have 85 or 90 percent of the funding in place,” Kingry said."

WHERE'S THE NEW CHAPEL?
WHERE'S THE MONEY THEY ALREADY COLLECTED?
IS THAT GONE, TOO?

Wanda said...

Anonymous said:

"Grassroots clean-up will be the ONLY way to make things right again. Is it possible? Anyone out there with a back-bone?"

Yes, I have a backbone, but I can't use mine because I'm a woman!

The only good thing about being a woman is the SBC is we can't be blamed for anything that has happened in recent decades.

Anonymous said...

As a Texas non-profit corporation, Southwestern Seminary is a private organization not bound by the legal requirements of a public body “required to be open to public scrutiny,”

How convenient.
No 'scrutiny'.
Ain't nobody gonna know. (unless
they watch that P Christmas Video.


1. Trustees and Patterson
answer to the SBC
2. Patterson IS the SBC, you fool
3. Okay, who's watching
Patterson?
4. No one.
5. Really? Someone spilled the
'beans': did you see that
video?
6. That's P bragging about his
perks, that's all.

WHEN TRUSTEES ARE TOLD TO SHUT UP AS INDIVIDUALS AND KEEP QUIET ABOUT MONETARY DEALINGS, YOU ARE SMART ENOUGH TO SEE WHAT IS GOING ON.

AREN'T YOU?

Isn't there any discernment alive and well in the Southern Baptist Church?

"be as wise as serpents; and as harmless as doves . . . "

Well, P got the first part of that quote right.

A nest of vipers.
Ravening wolves.

God help us.

Anonymous said...

HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF,
WHEN LESSONS ARE NOT LEARNED.


1. When they took over , they took control of EVERY organization.

2. They eliminated the ones they chose for expulsion from their midst.

3. They took over education and indoctrination.

4. They silenced any opposition, intially by 'booing and heckling'; finally by elimination.

5. They demanded allegiance and issued identification documents for all under their authority.

6. They took over the wealth.

7. They allowed NO DISSENT.

8. They were the AUTHORITIES, even over the laws of God.

9. In the end, there was little left of existing infra-structure.

10. Claims to 'moral authority' had self-destructed.

12. They encouraged children to turn their parents in to the authorities.

13. And Germany rotted from within
before it was defeated, as the 'leadership' had within it the seeds of destruction.




What are the similarities between Nazi Germany and the SBC under the CR leadership? They are there, no doubt. "Better play ball, or else."
And the 'or else' is brutal.

What direction is the SBC going in?

Has EVIL been done?
Who was victimized?
How badly?
Why was it allowed to happen?

HISTORY IS DOOMED TO REPEAT ITSELF WHEN PEOPLE DO NOT LEARN FROM THE PAST.

ESPECIALLY, WHEN THE WORDS AND ACTIONS OF JESUS CHRIST IN THE BIBLE NO LONGER HAVE PRIME TEACHING AND GUIDING AUTHORITY IN AN ORGANIZATION.
The CR people took care of that first, didn't they.
Of course. Now it makes sense.

Anonymous said...

For P, this advice:

take his yoke upon you for He is gentle and humble in heart . . .

God abides in the highest Heavens surrounded by majesty and glory.
BUT HE MAKES HIMSELF AT HOME IN A HUMBLE AND CONTRITE HEART.

not too late for you . . . .
and for those you have led into temptation . . . . .
repent
seek to return what is not yours
seek forgiveness from those you harmed and then from Him

and you will find peace for your soul

Anonymous said...

Anon 11:20:00 AM 2009
You have no idea what you are talking about when you equate Patterson's crew to Nazis is completely offensive being of German background. This is completely revisionism and a distraction to the seriousness of, true, question on authority. Wade please screen the comments more from the blog. Or nobody will take you serious

Anonymous said...

If the 'boot' fits . . . .

Did we step on somebody's toes.
Well, it's about time.

Actually, maybe giving the boot(s) was symbolic. Only the 'presenters' couldn't explain that for fear of losing their heads.

Two expensive cowboy boots.
One to kick tail.
The other as a memento of how
'extravagance' used the Lord's money.

I don't think Wade minds when people tell the truth on this site.

Sooner or later the truth will come out anyway.
May as well be sooner, before any more extravagance.
What an abuse of trust !!!!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

Yea, are you perfect in your dealing this week? If so bold then identify who you are so we can nominate you for SWBTS president. I could be as corrupted and admit uncertainty if I were in leadership. I have little understanding on what it would take to run a seminary. Should I run it out of shack on the railroad tracks? There needs to defining aspects to this not mere "boot" comments. That is way too easy. Your just as bad in your comments about him...whoever you are. Good teachers model what they want in their students.

Anonymous said...

"I have little understanding on what it would take to run a seminary. Should I run it out of shack on the railroad tracks? "


COMMENT:

NOW you are beginning to get the idea.

A shack on the railroad tracks?
You have a problem with this?

my dear man,

Lord Christ was born in a STABLE,
and placed in MANGER.
This was okay for Him.
But not 'grand enough' for the likes of YOU?

Better a shack on the railroad tracks, and the professors keep their retirement, and all who need the child-care center are not hurt by its loss.

I thought 'many mansions' referred to rewards in heaven.
I guess not.

That shack can help you regain your dignity, your integrity, your honesty, and maybe your faith:
as you remember the simple way Christ came into this world: there WAS a lesson in that, you know.

Don't worry about what you wear, or the food you eat, or the place where you rest your head.
God provides those needs.

People can live simply, honestly, with GREAT dignity, and with the respect of the whole world:

in a stable. . . . . or in a shack by the railroad tracks.

Try it.
It is a gift
to come down
where we ought to be.

May God forgive us all our foolish ways.

May we care for the welfare of our brother, before our own welfare.

And may we be grateful all the days of our lives for a chance to serve HIM.

Anonymous said...

Don't get me wrong reductionistic approaches are essential for good leaders in troubled times. Lee Iococca did relent his salary for a year in order to get Chrysler on track (too bad he is not back their). My grandad did the same thing during the depression in being a banker and then closed the bank because the assets were given back. I just think some sensibilities need to prevail and reactionary statements are not going to solve matters.

Anonymous said...

But then again some cathartic expressions may be necessary when in distress

Anonymous said...

Correction on my part:
Reductionistic approaches are essential for good leaders especially in troubled times. This is why million dollar word of faith leaders are indeed false leaders.

Bryan Laramore said...

Wade,

For what it's worth, the Stetson cowboys hats were not purchased by the budget, they were a donation from a wealthy fella who himself wanted to see it done.

Thought I'd help keep ya honest :)

Grace to You

Anonymous said...

Where is that 'wealthy fella' now, when the SEMINARY needs him?

Anonymous said...

Chances are, that 'wealthy fella' who 'donated' those hats was given a cushy SWBTS trustee postion with high salary and tons of perks.

People that donate to a church organization generally do it appropriately.

Donating 'hats' to 'the leadership' is not a gesture of disinterested generosity. It is called 'sucking up'.

People who 'suck up' want something in return.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

Why pick on Patterson?
God rewards some and not others.
Those God chooses to reward are His business.
Why envy Patterson? Envy is a sin.
Patterson has earned his perks.
God is in charge here.
People should shut up and mind their own business.

Here is the problem with the SBC the reason the hand on the wall is beginning to write "Ichabod". "earned perks - where in the Scriptures does it says we have earned perks? Because some one lives a lavish lifestyle means they are being blessed by God? The problem is people say they believe in the infallible Bible - but do not spend time reading the Bible - I guess God the Father did not love Jesus the Son because He did not seem to give Him many perks in His life here. We have been called to be servants - bond-slaves of our Lord Jesus - instead we magnify arrogant bullies that abuse the sheep & spiritualize it as being blessed by God - shame on us. God forgive us & we wonder why the lost world does not see the Gospel as being relevant - not because of Jesus but because of His supposed followers.

Anonymous said...

Wow.
I can't wait to see the next
BF&M edition come out.

They are really going to have to rewrite it to justify all the nonsense they have pulled on the Southern Baptist people.

Of course, they will require a 'loyalty' signing 'or else'.

Spiraling downward.

Sad thing is: maybe PP just got blinded by all that 'bling' so that he couldn't see the needs of others he was responsible to take care of. That would be the kindest thing one could say.

My sympathies, once again, are with those who are suffering and will continue to suffer because of this man.

Anonymous said...

The Gospel tells us that "when the man heard this he became very sad. " And it is in that sadness that we find the answer to an important question--the question of why Christ asked PAIGE PATTERSON, and not another, to sell all his possessions. He seemed to be a person of virtue, responsi bility and personal faith. But he was also a person who was good, who did good, and who sought to be better under only one condition--and that was that it not cost him anything. He was willing to obey the commandments, to participate in worship, to be responsible for, and careful of others, but would do so only if they did not reduce his own wealth, comfort, social privilege or anything else that he held dear. And so, in the end, PAIGE PATTERSON turned away in great sadness. He refused the challenge laid down by Christ because he had many possessions. PAIGE PATTERSON'S tragedy was that he loved those things more than he loved people; and PAIGE PATTERSON loved himself more than he loved those in the seminary he was responsible to look after. And any man who puts things before people and self before others, must turn his back on Jesus Christ.

Put your OWN NAME in and see if you also have turned your back on Him.

We all are guilty, one way or another.

Anonymous said...

You know what, who knows what the Pattersons make, spend, give, etc. I have no idea. I know Pecan Manor has a large staff. Is it necessary, I don't know. But appearances are critical if you are the public face of an institution, and the appearances of many things are not good at all and looking worse by the day.

Here is where the real issue is: Since the institution has decided that cuts are to be made, how are these cuts being handled? The answer is atrociously. People being fired/laid off within a short time of retirement. People fired/laid off with very little notice. Married couples let go and losing all of their household income. People losing jobs BECAUSE of their long and faithful terms with the Seminary. Pressure to leave positions faculty have no desire to leave. Many things are just being handled very poorly.

Here is my concern, a two-fold concern (one that is rarely raised): (#1)- We lost a lot of money, millions from the endowment, but why on earth is the endowment, money the Lord has entrusted us with, being basically "gambled" on the stock market? I really don't know how I feel about investing endowment funds in moderate-to-high-risk investments. (#2)- Yeah, we lost millions in the endowment, but don't we still have over $100 million in the endowment?! What on earth is that money sitting there for if not to get us through times like these? The parable of the man who built an extra barn to store all his massive harvest and whose life the Lord required of him that day comes to mind as we sit on millions and millions of dollars while people's lives and careers are destroyed by such massive cuts.

Even if we have to make cuts, can we not be humane and give people at least until the end of the semester?! Would it really cost us all that much when compared to the damage of the rampant slashing of jobs as is currently being undertaken?

-Justin Perry-

Anonymous said...

By the way...

...IF YOU POST CRITICAL COMMENTS WITHOUT ALSO POSTING YOUR NAME, YOU ARE A COWARD.

If you want to say something to someone, do so, but have the dignity to let them know who is saying it. Half the things on this blog would not be here if cowards had to post their names.

-Justin Perry-

Trey said...

I've already applied and have been accepted to SWBTS and my wife and I plan to move out there next Fall. Frankly, after a lot of reading, I'm not so sure that we're making the right decision. As for PP, if that is what his home life looks like then that is something that he will have to answer for but I can say that I find it horrible that they shut down the children's center. I am going full time to finish my Master's and my wife is going to be working and supporting us so we can get through faster. I don't have a clue now what we're going to do with my (currently) six-month old son when I have to go class.

I attended NOBTS for my undergrad up until Katrina and I can say that there was not any exorbitant spending other than much needed new apartments. Our gym was a wreck and everything else was pretty modest. I wonder if we shouldn't be trying to head back there.

Also, please stay off the lovely SBC bias against Calvinists. My wife and I are missionary minded, evangelical (at least 4 point) Calvinists and frankly it makes me sick that people constantly tear us down. I respect other people's opinions to know that there is a possibility that I am wrong and that I should not Lord a non-essential (salvtion-wise) belief over others.

Anyway, let us all commit to praying for the SBC so that we can stop living like the world and start fulfilling the Great Commission...

Trey

Dee said...

So, appearances are necessary if one is the public face of an institution....was Jesus successful or not? Did He live in a manor? Maybe He should have? Wasn't He the public face of His Father? Maybe I am just uneducated.

Anonymous said...

My quote:
"But appearances are critical if you are the public face of an institution, and the appearances of many things are not good at all and looking worse by the day."

Dee:
"appearances are necessary if one is the public face of an institution....was Jesus successful or not? Did He live in a manor? Maybe He should have? Wasn't He the public face of His Father? Maybe I am just uneducated."

I said appearances are critical, I was quoted as saying appearances are necessary. Those are two very different statements. To clarify what I meant by "appearances are critical," no matter what Patterson says or does to justify the actions of Southwestern, ultimately it will either be backed up or nullified by what he appears to be doing personally as the face of our institution. I was in no way saying that some kind of ritzy, glamorous facade is required for him since he is our public face. Absolutely not. What I was saying is that how he appears to others outside the institution is how the institution itself will be perceived by many. If his lifestyle looks glamorous in the face of economic crisis, it makes our entire seminary look bad.

So to say "appearances are critical" for Patterson as our leader is more than anything a challenge to him to put forth an image of integrity in the public eye as he represents all of us here in Fort Worth.

-JustinP-

Mark said...

Has anyone ever taught you what gossip is? Professors, parents, anyone?

Anonymous said...

Many of those still serving at SWBTS grieve at these facts as much as anyone. We were called here by the Lord, and have not been called away. We have a mission to fulfill and continue to do so, in spite of greatly changing circumstances.

When the Lord calls us elsewhere, we will faithfully go, but until that time, do not assume we who remain are "in the loop" for what is being done above us. If we leave for spite, or for our own egos' sake, without the Lord's leading, we are being disobedient to the call that brought us here.

There are *many* who remain here faithfully serving the Lord, teaching students, giving away their lives. We are not the enablers of the abuse.

Jeremy said...

Pastor Wade,

I graduated from SWBTS in Dec. of 2008 and can assure you that all of your facts and figures are correct. My wife and I saw first hand the lifestyle the Patterson's have. My wife was also one of the ones laid off. Although I believe it is important for the president to have the resources to entertain and go about the business of the seminary, his unwillingness to make any changes in salary, home and lifestyle are insulting to those of us who are paying the price for this economic environment we live in today.

Tertullian said...

This entire thread is a reflection of why it is so hard for us you call the unchurched to believe your "message."

Wow! Pastors fighting other pastors and agencies! Christians against Christians! You leave the world speechless with your strong words against each other!

Homer said...

Homer says: Patterson, with Paul Pressler, has caused more heart-ache and sadness in the SBC than any other individual in my memory and I am 82 years old. This is the same Patterson who repeatedly recommended a sexual predator and child molester for pastoral positions who had been charged with sexual misconduct at other churches.

Anonymous said...

5 years later and history has once again repeated itself at SWBTS.

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