Tuesday, October 16, 2007

Southern Baptist Women: Know Your Place (wink)


Jack Maddox said...

Very funny, insightful and uplifting post Wade...good to see your hard at work keeping the Southern Baptist masses entertained...also good to see that Ben is already making a contribution to the ol ministry team there at EBC!


Anonymous said...

LOL! Thank you for the laugh.

Dave Miller said...

Makes me long for the good old days, when things were as they should be!

Anonymous said...

Did you get this one from Page?
The title sound like him!!!
But thank you for the laughter.
The Fox

Anonymous said...

Okay, Wade, I am at work...and I can't be laughing...I have to remember my place and all.

What the heck! I'm going to laugh away anyway! Thanks for a Tuesday afternoon smile!

wadeburleson.org said...

You are welcome Jack.


Anonymous said...

Are you ok with women being senior pastors?
If not, thenn I will post this video on my website as an example of your intolerance and demeaning attitude toward women.

John Daly said...

I didn't know the bearded lady at the carnival was university educated :)

DL said...

The only thing missing is the brandy and cigars

wadeburleson.org said...


Feel free to post anything about me you please, whether it is true or not. A few other bloggers before you have exercised that same freedom.


wadeburleson.org said...

By the way, Shirley, your IP tells me you are a man.


The Lord and I know, but I'll keep it between us.

Anonymous said...

If you have to ask Wade if he's for women senior pastors, you haven't been reading this blog. He's not, give it a rest!

Just enjoy the video!

Anonymous said...

the video is extremely funny! i have a sense of humor, ie. gurly shirly.

just lightly making the point that while wade is lampooning some for their nuanced, even perhaps flawed, opinions of women in ministry the same video could easily be used by a liberal to object to his position on women as pastors.
too much down time this afternoon

Liz said...

Good grief! Just because a woman shouldn't be a "senior pastor" doesn't mean that she can't be educated, witty, funny, smart and serve God in a variety of other Biblically sound ways!
I thought the video was funny!


Anonymous said...

Question -- How will this particular post fit into your chapter on internet civility?

wadeburleson.org said...

Answer: "Laughter is medicine for the soul."

I'm being a good doctor in the Great Physicians service.


Anonymous said...

Rebuttal -- you might have a point if you weren't trying to make a sarcastic point AND if your point was actually funny.

Anonymous said...

HAHA. It was funny! And the comments gave me a chuckle or two as well.

david b mclaughlin said...

that was fantastic!!!

Me things Shirley is KMC. Just a guess.

And btw-let's all work together to End Women Suffrage Now! Stop the suffrage!


Jack Maddox said...

I thought the video was sophmoric, condensending, lacked civility and is loaded politcaly...

but it was funny as all get out

By the way, if I allowed my wife to get on the internet she would be offended...


Emily Hunter McGowin said...


I saw this video last week and laughed. Today I didn't.

Perhaps the wear and tear of seminary is getting to me. Perhaps I'm lonely without Ronnie here to keep me company. But, I think the real reason is that I'm tired of being patted on the head like a puppy and winked at like an 8 year-old at show-and-tell. (I'm not saying that's what you're doing. But, it is what many do.)

I heard homiletics professor Cleophus LaRue lecture today and I appreciated what he said. Here's the jist of it: "Stop winking at women who claim the call of God to preach. Either get on board or don't. Jesus said the harvest is plentiful but the laborers are few. Either welcome our sisters as co-laborers in the harvest or don't. I've picked my side. What about you?"

I am not making a political statement. I am not stirring up trouble. But, seeing that video again, I was struck by the exhaustion I feel as one who believes firmly in God's equal calling of men and women, but labors among those who don't share that conviction.

There's no whining here. I don't expect those who disagree to offer me support. Surely, I can join a different "crew" if I want. I'm just sharing how it feels.

I think that's why I'm not laughing today. For a woman who deals with this mindset day in and day out, its just not funny anymore.

Grace and peace,


Bill Scott said...

If imitation is the ultimate form of flattery, then you must be KMC's hero. He has renamed his blog "Grace and Truth to You!" Someone commented that he had made his blog invitation only. Apparently he has decided to copy your theme, name and even has spoofed your bio.

You should be honored Wade (wink)& :-).

Anonymous said...

Emily, your post really touched my heart. Please know that today I will be praying for you as you continue your search for knowledge from on high. Your search is worth the journey. I promise! Don't grow weary. Keep the faith.

For many years, I served as a SBC pastor. I am seminary trained, including my DMin from an SBC seminary. Unfortunately for the world, I went through a divorce a few years back. Fortunately for me, God isn't through with me yet!

While my days of being a pastor are apparently over (unless I become Methodist :) ), I will never stop serving Him, no matter what the world says! My calling is from God not from man or woman!

When my daughter was 5 she accepted Jesus Christ as her Savior. Shortly thereafter she began to feel the need to talk with me about her serving God one day. Her question to me? Simple: "Dad, if God calls me to be a preacher like you, can He do that?" Wow! From the mouth of a babe. I pulled her into my lap and said to her as honestly as I knew how, "God can do anything He wants to do!" I meant it then, I still believe it today.

Emily, God can use you in any way He wants! Don't let anyone stop you from knowing His truth for your life and ministry.

greg.w.h said...

Everyone should read Emily's post several times before responding to it. I hope Emily won't mind me using her thoughts as springboard for further conversation:

Each believer needs to decide for himself or for herself precisely how to relate to those fellow believers he or she deems liberal. The choice is coming down to a combination of isolationism and namecalling OR acceptance and cooperation.

On the issue of women serving in ministry, the record of service is clear. When women are permitted to serve as ministers in even the most conservative Baptist churches, they are profoundly capable. I am thinking of two women in specific as I write this: Trexa Hildebrand at Great Hills BC in Austin, Texas and Martha Taylor formerly at Immanuel Baptist in Highland, California.

I have known both as they served in roles that have mirrored Ministers to Children and Youth held traditionally by males in those churches. Both ran in my opinion significantly better organized ministries that were more highly dependent on engaging and leading volunteers including men. This included significant TRAINING of men, too.

In case no one has caught on so far, I'm deeply conservative. That conservatism requires me to read the Bible literally. But it also is built on reading the Bible holistically as well. One of the primary hermeneutics of the Bible is progressive revelation. God reveals himself more fully over time. He hides as mysteries things that he isn't ready to reveal.

One theory as to why God does that is that as human hosts of the knowledge of his glory, if he didn't reveal himself progressively, we WOULD--because of sin--contaminate the mysteries. So the mystery of the church waited until we had the sealing of the Holy Spirit so that God could sufficiently influence it directly rather than only through written revelation.

The foundation that Paul set for leading early churches could be prescriptive or it could be reactive. It might even be a mixture of both. But it is significant that Paul proclaimed not once but TWICE the rubric regarding in Christ there is "neither Jew nor Ethnos, neither free nor slave, neither male and female." And it's worth noting that his view of the support of women of his ministry is significantly more progressive than the view of the stark conservatives.

I am not concerned that specific churches continue to maintain the practice of men in leadership in their churches as a matter of culture or as a matter of custom. God wandered the pre-Israelite Hebrews in the wilderness for 40 years to deal with those that preferred custom and culture to God's leadership after all, so being intransigent is hardly a sign of spirituality. My thought is that these churches remain obedient only to the extent that they acknowledge that God CAN work with other ekklesias in a more flexible manner and seek cooperation with "all of the Redeemed" (BFM 2000, Article VI The Church).

But thinking, reasoning, loving Christians need to read what Emily wrote very carefully. She has a point that is pretty easy to support with Scripture...especially if you believe the Holy Spirit continues to reveal mysteries to us even to this moment in time.

Everyone else--who believes all that is ever going to be said about faith and practice has already been said--should join the dead in burying the dead in my opinion. We have a world to reach and the laborers INDEED are few. I've been taught by very conservative leaders that the precise metric for when God will use women instead of men is when not enough men are willing to serve.

Perhaps that is precisely where we are and why women like Emily and my close friend Rev. Cindy Beck have succumbed to the overwhelming call of the Holy Spirit to serve as ministers of the gospel?

Food for thought for those who are true Bereans and search and prove the Scripture for themselves and don't take dictation from dictators.

Greg Harvey

P.S. The video was funny precisely because it showed how horribly intolerant and condescending males STILL tend to be towards females. While I'm better than I used to be, I'm still guilty as charged. If I will acknowledge my sinful condescension MIGHT be impacting my interpretation of the Bible, will you?

Anonymous said...

I loved it, Wade. Of course you knew I would!
Florence in KY

david b mclaughlin said...

When my daughter was 5 she accepted Jesus Christ as her Savior. Shortly thereafter she began to feel the need to talk with me about her serving God one day. Her question to me? Simple: "Dad, if God calls me to be a preacher like you, can He do that?" Wow! From the mouth of a babe. I pulled her into my lap and said to her as honestly as I knew how, "God can do anything He wants to do!"


Rex Ray said...

In my opinion, the best comment (excluding Emily’s) on this post is Greg Harvey’s.

Her comment is clear and easy to see. It’s easy for all to agree the way she feels.

Most may say, “Now honey, you’ll feel better if you’ll accept the position God has made for you.”

On the other hand, Harvey’s comment is mind shattering.

Not that God has changed his mind, but God has waited until the right time for the fulfillment of Paul’s “…neither male nor female.”

Thanks Greg, and preach on, Emily, preach on!

Lin said...

Emily, Mega Ditto's :o)

What is so shattering …is that those who disagree don't just disagree...some claim we are in sin.

What I cannot comprehend is how our leaders in the SBC can be so consumed with THIS particular secondary doctrine ...while conversely ignoring disagreement in other secondary doctrines such as padeo baptism and baptismal regeneration?

They are inviting those with these opposing beliefs to speak in seminary chapels, share stages at conferences, etc.


Anonymous said...

If we accept the idea that women are full human beings and children of God everything else should be clear. If women are lesser creatures then all sorts of questions must be answered, like: Where do they fit in the scheme of things? What can they do, or not do? That seems to be what happens in SBC life: At what age must she stop teaching boys? What leadership roles can she have in a church? What kind of mission work can she do? Can she teach men anything in a seminary, if so, what?

As for the place of women being a secondary or tertiary idea, I suppose it can be for men. How can it not be primary for women, especially those who feel called to serve God in a way that men try to deny them?


Emily Hunter McGowin said...


I think you've voiced what I've felt for some time when I hear people speak of "women in ministry" as a secondary or tertiary doctrine.

Certainly, ministry roles is not central to the Gospel message, but the results of redemption in Christ is central. The Spirit's calling on my life will never be secondary or tertiary for me, just as preaching will never be secondary or tertiary for Wade or other preachers. That's why I feel so strongly that there is little room left for neutrality. In my life, at least, I had to "pick a side" and take my stand.

Thanks for all the good words, especially from Greg.

Grace and peace to all,


P.S. As a word of clarification, I do not claim to be called to pastor or to preach.

kehrsam said...

I find it shocking that Wade would take a position so eminently contrary to scripture as to deny the Gold Standard. I demand that the BF&M be amended forthwith to exclude this vile heresy from our ranks, as well as to prevent it from infecting our seminaries and Missionaries. This cannot be allowed to continue if we are to remain coherent as a denomination. If it is to mean anything to be a Southern Baptist, that must includes gold (or possibly bimetallism, but such believers must adopt utmost humility). Paper "currency" is nothing but the seed of the Devil. ;-)

Ummm, thanks for the thoughtful laugh, Wade.

Anonymous said...

I have waited until now to comment. Even with your (wink) after to title, I knew some people would try to turn it around and use it against you (or for you) when you were trying to "be a good doctor." I personally thought it was hilarious. No, I personally do not believe women should be senior pastors, but neither do I believe that they are somehow "inferior". I have seen many women "pastor" better than many male "pastors". Keep making us smile every once in a while.

Rex Ray said...

You bring up a point that the SBC, specifically the BFM 2000, (by Patterson’s hand-picked small committee) completely ignores.

That is the account of the disciples complaining to Jesus that others were using HIS NAME to cast out demons and they were NOT one of THEIR group. (Mark 9:38)

(Almost like Patterson telling Dilday…you’re conservative all-right, but you’re not one of us.
How does it feel now that you have his job and messed it up so bad the law is teaching you Christian principles?)

Ut oh, got off the subject, or did I? Jesus said to his disciples, “Anyone who isn’t against us is for us.” (Mark 9:40)

Are some afraid there is not enough lost souls so they don’t want any competition from women?

Will said...

The college education...beard growth commentary cracked me up.

But then again, I, too, love little kittens. They're soft and fuzzy.

LOL, Wil

Blake Dempsey said...

Rev. Burleson,
After the initial video plays, there are links to other videos across the bottom of the youtube screen. I believe you do not want to provide a link to some of those videos as the two I viewed contained inappropriate gestures and behavior.
Just wanted to let you know.

greg.w.h said...

I need to correct a couple of things in my previous post:

Gal 3:28 uses `ellen and not ethnos. My focus was on the use of kai in "ou eni arsen kai thElus" which is distinct from the "ou eni ioudaios oude hellEn" and "ou eni doulos oude eleutheros". I've been fascinated by the male and female being separated with "and" (kai) rather than the "or" (oude) of the previous phrases.

Col 3:11 Does not mention "male and female" when Paul makes a similar comparison between "neither Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free".

It's still worth noting that given the Jews (and perhaps even Jewish Christians) of Paul's day saw as stark a separation between Jew and Greek, that my point regarding male and female today (i.e. the possibility that God intends to continually extend equality perhaps even to the point of calling women to senior leadership positions) stands.

There's more I could say, but I mainly wanted to clarify the mistakes I made and to amend what I said accordingly.

Greg Harvey

wadeburleson.org said...


You are correct, I do not desire YouTube's bar at the end of the video. This is the code they give for you to place the video on your blog. I have made a couple of phone calls to get the code to prevent that bar from appearing, but so far, I have not had success in obtaining the computer language html code to prevent this from happening.

greg.w.h said...

According to this page

the magic is to add &rel=0 to the end of the HREF.

This post will destruct in 5....4....3...2...1...

Oh...phoeey...please delete it once you read it Wade.


Anonymous said...

There are still many men (not all) who respond to other men in spiritual matters, rather than to women. Maybe that should not be, but it is.

When my husband and I hear women teachers, he tends to tune out or somehow become irritated. You can call that Neanderthal, medieval, ignorant, or whatever; we can pray to change his heart and open his ears; we can try to love him into "hearing equality" ; we can take him to as much teaching by women as possible....

But who am I trying to kid? To tell the absolute truth, I am kind of afraid of you guys. I am putting up all kinds of preemptive defenses b/c I think you will look down on my husband and me. But here goes, I believe that men should teach men in Scriptural/spiritual matters. I don't regard it as some unbreakable rule but as God's wisdom.

Wade, how does a seminary go about acommodating this view with the opposite view?

BTW, I don't attend an SBC church.

Have at....

Anonymous said...

I think the video is highly amusing. As one in denominational work, still a man's world, by and large, what's portrayed is nothing new. It's not insulting at all, really, it's simple reality. And it's not just Southern Baptists--it's men and women in general, no matter how enlightened even in the corporate world. What's fun is knowing how to use it to your advantage. Women, empower yourselves, study the issues and the body language. There is much written about how men and women communicate on different levels. It's like learning a foreign language. It doesn't have to be demeaning--it's just knowing how to work within the madness without becoming one of the bearded women--but having the glowing face of the kittenish, smiling beauty! And ending up on the better end of the deal :)

Anonymous said...

My goodness! I certainly know my place. I would never dream of speaking in any way that would put my loving Christian husband's ego in threat-mode. (wink, wink) Just one problem with your video: the neurosurgeon who helped save my son's life after his accident may not have gone to University because she was a beautiful, well-spoken woman whose skills I thank God for. She might wonder how many Baptist women are still kept "behind the veil"???