"I went to Jerusalem to become acquainted (Gk. istoria) with Cephas" - Paul's words from Galatians 1:18.

Nationalism, July 4th, and the Kingdom of Christ

First Baptist Church, Dallas, Texas, on Freedom Sunday
I'm about to make a confession that almost guarantees half of you will immediately stop reading this post.

If possible, don't quit reading, but I understand you'll have a strong desire to stop after you read the next sentence.

I am a political conservative who voted for Donald Trump and think he's doing a pretty good job as President.

I know about half of you reading this are now very angry.  I'm asking you to continue reading even if you disagree with me about my politics, especially if you are a professing Christian. 

For I'm about to upset the other half reading this post as well.
At my request, the American flag has been removed from the auditorium of Emmanuel Enid, the church where I serve as a teaching pastor. 
Some members of Emmanuel Enid don't like that the American flag is gone. It has made them - friends of mine - about as upset as those of you who now know I voted for Trump.

So let me take the time to explain the principle behind the American flag's removal from the building where Christians gather for corporate worship at Emmanuel Enid.
Christ's people belong to an eternal Kingdom which has no flag. 
Some church members have a tough time understanding this principle because they've been raised in America, believing nationalism and Christianity go together like peanut butter and jelly between slices of bread.

In other words, they're comfortable with worship like that at FBC Dallas.

If I were at a political rally, I too would love what took place at FBC Dallas last Sunday during their church services.

I just don't think nationalism is appropriate in a Christian corporate worship service.

As a student of history, I understand that fascists and totalitarian governments always demand nationalism during Christian worship services. Little kings don't like their people bowing to a bigger King.

Some respond: "Wade, aren't you a patriot?" (Yes). "Aren't you a theological, political, and cultural conservative?" (Yes, yes, and yes). "Don't you wish to honor our military and our country?" (Yes). "Aren't we called by God to pray for our country's leaders?" (Yes).

Then why don't you place the American flag in the building where we corporately worship? 

Because too many people in America confuse and fuse Christianity and politics.

Nations come and go. Republics rise and fall. Countries create conflict and collapse or conquer. Nationalism, patriotism, and statism are all temporary.

Christ's Kingdom is eternal.  National kingdoms are not.

Never confuse the two. Our eternal citizenship is in Christ's Kingdom  Our temporary citizenship is in the kingdom (little "k") of the United States (or other countries). Never confuse Christ's Kingdom with an earthly president's or king's kingdom.

By the way, political liberals, as well as political conservatives, get confused over this because they both don't understand the principle that Christ's kingdom transcends every kingdom of the world:
"Political liberals want the government to look like their concept of the church as much as political conservatives want the church to look like their concept of the government."
Avoid the temptation to dilute the Kingdom with other kingdoms.

Emmanuel Enid has a Christian school where every morning we teach our children good citizenship to the United States. Students recite the Pledge of Allegiance. They learn about the Constitution of the United States. They pray for our President, regardless of party or affiliation.

But that's a school that teaches nationalism, patriotism, and good citizenship.

It is not a Kingdom church.

So, this July 4th there will be no patriotic service at Emmanuel. There used to be one every year.

But Emmanuel Enid now understands better the principle that in corporate worship the Kingdom always supersedes kingdoms.

There's nothing wrong with patriotic, fire-works worthy, nationalistic, triumphant celebrations using choirs, flags, military salutes, and bands! I enjoy them as a patriotic American and will participate in a nationalistic, patriotic celebration Wednesday night, July 4th.

But I know that my true citizenship is in a Kingdom that is eternal, one that will long outlast America, and I don't wish to downgrade the eternal with the temporal during worship of the King.

118 comments:

Scotty Karber said...

Could not agree more. Realized it years ago at a soldier's funeral in an OK SBC church when that Christian young man's Savior was hardly mentioned.

Donald Johnson said...

When merged, both end up distorted.

Wade Burleson said...

Donald, you and I seem to agree on many things. :)

Scotty, I'm wondering if a "funeral" might be something different than a "worship service." Here's what I mean. I have officiated at military funerals, and it is has been very moving. I think military funerals are the very place where if there is a "blur" of the lines, this is it. Why? Because you are dealing with a person who served his country (kingdom) small "k" with honor, but you are delivering a message of a bigger Kingdom (big "K"). I don't know I'd call a funeral corporate worship.

Having said that, were I a soldier (and I'm not), and were I to die on a battlefield for my country (a very high honor indeed), I would probably leave instructions for my family that my preference is that at the service the Gospel and the Kingdom of Christ be preeminent (no military tribute) and at the graveside, military honors.

But I respect military families who merge both.


Ron West said...

Wade, I have attended church in several foreign counties. I have never attended one to my knowledge outside the US where the nations flag was displayed in the church. I wonder if this is a peculiarly American custom. I am sure there are other countries that have a history of a state church where this takes place.
I also wonder if the opposite is true. How appropriate is it for government buildings and institutions to have religious symbols related to a particular religion.

Wade Burleson said...

Ron,

Good points.

I found it interesting that the early European emigrants (Puritans, Pilgrims, etc.) all thought the Native Americans were the 10 lost tribes of Israel and Christianizing the Jews would usher in the coming of Christ.

We are definitely a secular country and/or government today, and I'm not sure that's necessarily a "bad" thing in terms of the Kingdom.

Christianity has always flourished under oppressive governments because the message of Christianity - love, forgiveness, and service - resonates with repressed people.

Anonymous said...

"At my request, the American flag has been removed from the auditorium of Emmanuel Enid, the church where I serve as a teaching pastor. "

Just curious - how did the request turn into policy? Thanks, Ken

Bob Cleveland said...

Agree 100%, Wade. I don't like the American flag in our sanctuary, either.

Years ago, during our "patriotic service, the pledge of allegiance was recited. And I recall the first time I walked out, after I'd been overseas and realized that such recitation would separate us from those foreign worshipers I loved worshiping beside in their churches. So the next year, I just did not attend.

This year ... seeing that Sunday will be our "patriotic service", I asked our pastor if the pledge was on the agenda. Thankfully, it's not.

Now if I can just get something done about the flag.....

Christiane said...

I love the way the Brits have a patriotic expression in their C of E.
But it is a positive thing, not the hellish preaching in support of a political party from the pulpit that locks a denomination in as a 'friendly' entity to political power. In their patriotic expression, the Brits honor their service dead and yes, the hymns point to Christ.
But the Brits have a 'head of State' that is NOT political, so the integrity of the C of E is preserved and the 'fallen' who died in service to the country are honored for their sake.

I do worry in this country that any denomination that has locked itself firmly to a political party has 'lessened' its witness to Christ. In coming months or next year, we will like learn some information that will not be flattering to the supporters of certain political entities, and that the Church NOW begins to separate itself from politics is encouraging.

IF the Church and a political party are lock-step with one another, and the political entity does something immoral, it will reflect on the Church that supported it.

As for individual Christian people, we have consciences and we must come to terms with how we live in response to our consciences. We hope for 'integrity' and making difficult choices is our lot in this life; but there is one thing to remember: we cannot serve two masters. So it is imperative that we TRY to do 'the right thing' as our consciences give us to see. Easy? Not at all. But we NEED our integrity and our honor if we are to stand as Christian people in this world. Those orphans and widows are counting on us and yes, we do live out our faith in that, if we believe in Christ, we WILL obey Him with our full strength.

Wade Burleson said...

Ken,

Everything we do is based on biblical principles, so if a policy contradicts a biblical principle, the policy will change.

For example, I heard of a church in Enid that rejected an African American from attending (years ago). It was their policy. Did it violate Scripture? (Absolutely). However - those in leadership at the time did not believe racism was a violation of the Word of God. So guess what? Church policy reflected the theology of the pastor.

I am the teaching pastor of Emmanuel, and because I see what I wrote on this post as a biblical, Kingdom principle, practice and policy will reflect the biblical principle.

It's a little like "women in leadership." I believe leadership is based on giftings and not gender, character and not control, service, not status, and an offering of oneself to others and not an office of authority over others. Our church policy reflects that biblical principle.

So, if someone believes only men can lead or teach and that a worship service should be a patriotic celebration, there's plenty of churches that practice such things.


Alaskan in Texas said...

I am a conservative Republican and evangelical who voted in the 2016 presidential election, but not for either major party's candidate. I think this man that voters elected is an awful person whose misty-eyed embrace by so, so many evangelicals utterly confuses me (particularly those who embraced him earlier during the primaries). Although, at the same time, I believed the Democrat's candidate was a terrible option, too. Apart from all that, I heartily applaud you leading your congregation away from the uniquely American practice of combining patriotism with corporate worship. I have long, long disagreed with churches that do so. I think one can be a rock-solid American patriot without dragging Old Glory into a worship service, and also think that to do so actually diminishes the values and message of both patriotism and God.

Aussie John said...

Wade,
Could you hear my cheering?:)

Andy Taylor said...

Wade, I was privileged 15 years ago to preach at Emmanuel at your invitation. I had just returned from Iraq. I preached in uniform. But I talked about Jesus, not how wonderful I believe America to be (and I do believe it to be wonderful). I have since retired after 21 years of service. I pastor in Broken Arrow. I whole heartedly support what you have written here concerning nationalism. We have bordered upon, and IMO crossed the line often, to idolatry. I am a patriot and a patriotic man. But we don’t celebrate America in our worship services. Thankful for all service members, gathered to worship only One.

Anonymous said...


"Everything we do is based on biblical principles, so if a policy contradicts a biblical principle, the policy will change."

The biblical principle for getting kids to recite the what they do not understand or believe in?

The Pledge has an interesting history. Go for it, Wade.

Wade Burleson said...

Andy,

Thank you, sir! Appreciate your service and your comment.

Wade Burleson said...

Anonymous,

In Romans 13 we are instructed to "pray for kings and those in (government) authority." I'm reminded that when Paul wrote that pagan Nero was in charge of the Roman Empire. One might not "believe in" the leaders of government in the United States, but as a good citizen - and as a member of the Kingdom of Christ - nothing wrong with praying for government leaders, regardless of your personal opinion of their character or their politics. Temporary citizenship requires prayer for governmental leaders. Eternal citizenship in the Kingdom of Christ gives confidence to that the King reigns regardless of the fitness of any earthly king.

cslewis3147 said...

I find it very interesting that you voted for Trump and write so much about women in ministry and support of them. I'm not saying you are in support of Trump's morals or support them just because you support his political leanings, but I do find it interesting is where I'll leave it for now

everette said...

I appreciate your stand against mixing church and state, Wade. I too have traveled extensively and have never seen a national flag in a church outside of the US. I feel that a church that openly embraces its government will inevitably lose both its prophetic voice and ultimately, its ministry.

I'm not even sure that's it's a good idea for churches to accept tax exemptions. For one, I feel that it is contrary to Jesus' example in Matthew 17, where he paid his taxes to the Pharisees primarily so that he would be free to criticize the Pharisees two weeks later in chapter 23. For another, the existing tax exemptions largely reward churches that build large buildings and hire large staffs. Staff and buildings are fine to a certain point, but far too many American churches focus more staff and buildings than on reaching the lost.

I'm also conflicted about the how the American church treats the military. I do not condemn people for enlisting, particularly in light of the many advantages that military service can offer (not just financial benefits, but life training for kids who don't know what to do with themselves, etc). But the vast majority of America's wars, including pretty much every one of our conflicts since Korea, have been at best unnecessary and at worst aggressive and colonialist. When we overly praise military service, or put military service members on a pedestal, we can run very close to being the opposite of the peacemakers that Christ called us to be. And at the same time, America's neocolonial adventures can make life rather difficult on overseas workers like me.


Anonymous said...

Just curious...do you come from a Jehovahs Witness background? (not asking to offend you)

Wade Burleson said...

Anonymous,

I do not. Laughing.

Wade Burleson said...

CSLewis3147,

Yep.

Interesting.

My American politics are much different than my understanding of the Kingdom of Christ - and I never ocnfuse the two.

everette said...

@Anonymous, no, I was born and raised the grandson of a Southern Baptist education minister and the son of IMB missionaries. But I've seen the life-changing and culture-changing impact of churches that actively teach their congregants to oppose the corruption and abuses of power they see in the government. In many cases they were taught to do this by American missionaries. But if those same missionaries were to practice the same kinds of speaking the truth to power back in the US, they would be denounced by much of the church as socialists.

I'm not advocating for liberation theology, communism, or anything of that nature--those ideologies, like capitalism, fundamentalism, and other ideologies, can be easily corrupted. But I get sick of hearing about how America was founded as a Christian nation devoted to freedom, when it's patently obvious that the early US was in favor of freedom only for white men, and that it actively worked to suppress freedom for Native and African Americans--the Treaty of Paris that provided for American independence even demanded that the British return the slaves they had freed during the revolution.

Similarly, I'm aware that my own family's middle class status derives in part from the wealth earned by the slaves they owned in the 1800's, and painfully aware that the US church largely ignored this huge injustice, just as it is frequently ignores the plight of brown people even to this day.

Anonymous said...

Thank you for your reply. I am not sure what part of Rom 13 enjoins Christians to swear an oath, especially a false one, to their government. Raising the issue of praying for one's government is a red herring. It is not a matter of believing in the leaders of one's government. No iteration of the Pledge contained language about governmental leaders. My question is still unanswered.

Ray said...

I am a former soldier, combat vet, and pastor for 18 years. When we built a new sanctuary 12 years ago I did not put the flags up. When people asked I simply said that the Kingdom is not America.

Wade Burleson said...

Ray,

You are my kind of soldier.

Kingdom minded. Well done.

Anonymous said...

CSLWEIS..."NICE TOUCH"
By the way you slipped in the jab "leaving it for now"...most would infer that you think less of Mr. Burleson because he shared who he voted for. This was his choice to do that to add credence and supporting evidene to back up an article. The point of the article...and i dont know wade very well...by the way...was to have a reasonable discussion about the role of patriotism (i.e. Presence of the flag in Christ honoring worship services on his own blog no less)
Please don't dilute the Biblical discussion at hand with (did you know that you voted for "so and so" and they aren't perfect or just like they shod be!
I heard a wise pastor state one time that "Christians have the opportunity to be salt and light in the world." Profound stuff I know.
The definition of being In the world means participation in the process matters.
I had and even wiser high school civis teacher (thanks Mr. Pearson) who taught us in 9th grade that "In our current 2 party political system; sometimes you vote for the lesser of 2 evils to be an active participant. Until power is disturbeted more evenly across 3 or more cantidates...any vote for someone other than elephants or donkeys is a waste of your freedom.

THAT....wasting our freedom, in my opinion...would be the bigger tragedy than voting for someone who could be proven less than perfect...
Romans 3:23.

Wade, thanks for taking the time to speak with me by phone yesterday morning from Alabama.
Love the spirit with which you attempt to "rightly divide God's Truths in His word."

Rusty Selman
Pastor
Northwood Hills Baptist Church
Northport, Al

CSLWEIS
Sorry for the lack of concern with grammar or capitals...this was from my phone...and it would only be slighy better if it was from something else. pray for our leaders ... Allofem

Rex Ray said...

Wade

It’s funny how many comments have been about the flag and very few about Trump. I wonder how many commenters voted for him.

My membership has been in many Baptist churches in 76 years, (saved when I was 10) and I don’t remember seeing the American flag in any of them. At our house the flag flies 70 feet above the ground.

My comment is about President Trump. I believe anyone would be an improvement over Obama. I think Obama will go down in history as the worst President America has ever had. Instead of apologizing for America, Trump fights for America. I voted for him and will do it again.

I believe “draining the swamp” and “making America great again” is reflected in many ways such as the low unemployment and the rise in the stock market.

One reason for all the ‘fake news’ is because he is NOT a politician. He is NOT one of the ‘good old boys club’ and they can’t stand it.

RB Kuter said...

Wade, I "thought" you might be a Jehovah Witness because you don't believe people go to heaven when they die but lie in the ground "sleeping" until Jesus returns and now you say you're removing the American flag from the church like a Jehovah Witness would do so I "know" you must be a Jehovah Witness!

JUST JOKING! JUST JOKING!

I understand your feelings about having the flag in the church but I also understand the concept of displaying the flag in the church as well. I believe that the United States is a very special nation that has always been blessed by God in spite of all of its shortcomings. I believe that it is a nation favored by God because it was founded on Godly principles and God has always been acknowledged as the basis and foundation of its well being.

I believe that churches that display the American flag are attempting to express their gratefulness and dependency upon God as Americans as well as being citizens of His Kingdom, which, of course, is sovereign in no disputable way.

But it's up to the church whether it be displayed or not, which brings up the question of whether your "church" was involved in the decision to remove the flag or was this simply a "Wade" as the boss type of decision? Surely not.

Loretta said...

Addressing Ron West, the reason for the US Flags in American Church business buildings is related to the 501C3 legal incorporation of the Church business with the US Government. Even if flags are removed from a Church building, the Church business is still under the legal authority, permission, rules, limits and oversight of the US Government, if they are registered 501C3.

Romycat Black said...

I'm not American. It is very amost like idolatry the way American's carry on mixing the two. Wade you are correct. The Devil offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world in the desert and Christ said no.

But I would like to add a comment about the complete nauseam I feel when American evangelicals believe that the God of the universe revolves around America, every prayer, tribute, sin, is attributed to her and her borders as if no other nation existed.

I have read all about Dominion Theology. I have seen you try to push Christians into worldly positions with the idea that you will create some sort of Christian nation.

The theology is that through politics America will delay or usher in the 2nd coming of Christ!

As if any nation has the powerto decide on Christ's return!!

There is a whole world God created and loves outside the American border but the way your church's act and believe down there you would think you are the chosen nation.

It might be wise for American's to get off their high horse about themselves. God does not revolve around you, your nation or your politics.

Christiane said...

Hello Romycat

you wrote, this
"It might be wise for American's to get off their high horse about themselves."

My thought is that 'America' willingly fell off of its 'high horse' the moment it's Administration first ordered a designated government employee to forcibly take an infant from its mother's arms and transport it across the country




Romycat Black said...

As for Trump being good for America?
Overall whatever he does that suits your needs as far as commerce and taxes yah, I can give you that. But as far as Trump being good for the nation of America.....you do all realize that you have lost integrity the world over right?

You are losing face with your allies, our country has a special administrative team just to handle the daily onslaught of Trump that is now taking energy away from our own domestic politics.

His ratings worldwide have slid the US as a whole down sometimes up to 50% points from various nations. Nobody wants to deal with the US.

So while you sit at home thinking he is good for you as a nation , you are so insular and can't see he is actually really bad for America.

He has made America the laughing stock of the world, nations and governments cannot trust him. His moral code does not exist, your internal politics has the world absolutely gobsmacked.

On another note. I was thinking about your size, force, and power nationally and of course internationally....and your national pride.

Is it not some sort of Biblical pattern that the natiin of Israel was without size and strength and won battle because God intervened?
Without God's power wasn't Israel nothing? I mean look at David and Goliath.

And there seems to be an unmistakable affinity in the New Testamnet about the poor in spirit and the weak. The lowly always seem to win God's favour and mercy. The poor woman who gives her last mite. The Beatitudes, the disciples were common lowlife . The widows , orphans, and Christ himself being born in Stable..

Not too much refernce to power,might, and greatness in the NT. Except when it comes to pride, arrogance, haughtiness all which is an abomination.

So it was making me wonder, the theme has been God's judgemnet has come to the US because of abortion and lack of prayer in the schools , etc, and yet I never hear one iota about the mention of national pride or America is the greatest nation, or even make America great again being among any of the sins listed causing God's judgement.

And yet Satan gets booted out of heaven for pride, God hates pride, Jesus continuously comes at the pharisees about pride and hypocrisy.

And here we have national pride inside the church with a flag raised up alongside those images of the cross on the walls.....here we have an image of the cross the very image of the humility of Christ and a flag signifying pride elevated to the same level of the cross.
Something is amiss. Something is terribly wrong.

I don't think judgement has come to America as some might believe. I just think you are reaping what you sow.

If it brings the church low, if it can squeeze the arrogance out of the pews it is a win for the body of Christ.

I may have stepped on many toes here but it is glaringly obvious the church in America has an arrogance problem steeped, seasoned, perculated, and fermented in one of the sins God detests. PRIDE.

Ken said...

Thanks, Wade! Thought-provoking post.

Sallie Borrink said...

Romycat Black,

Dominion Theology is only believed by a small segment of the American church. In fact, many American Christians are downright hostile toward Dominion Theology so to paint us all as Dominionists is completely inaccurate.

So you must be Canadian since you refer to the USA as "down there" in your comments?

Christiane said...

We are hearing desperate cries from the youngest refuge victims of the State.
And from those who say 'don't bother about them, they aren't American children',
we are asked to be silent, to look away, it's just politics as usual

But still,from our inner-most conscience, we hear the age-old echo, come down through the centuries:
"AND WHO IS MY NEIGHBOR?"

Seems to me, we have a choice to make based on a time of urgency for the little ones, and involving an intensely spiritual moment of discernment.... we either choose to 'do nothing' or we choose to respond as if the little ones were our own children

There will always be those times some call'Bonhoeffer Moments' because these times involve a great degree of difficulty in sorting out if and how we are called to respond, upon honor and conscience.



“As much as the Christian would like to remain distant from political struggle, nonetheless, even here the commandment of love urges the Christian to stand up for his neighbor.”
(Dietrich Bonhoeffer)

Rex Ray said...

OK, Romycat Black,

THAT’S ENOUGH

Merle Haggard’s song expresses my feelings: “When they’re running down my country, they’re walking on the fighting side of me.”

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-israel-obama-idUSKBN150001

“Relations between the United States and Israel have soured during Obama’s eight years in office. The U.S. declined to veto the United Nations resolution to move against Israel settlements. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu described the U.S. as “shameful” and accused the Obama administration of colluding with the Palestinians.”

Last year Judy and I were on a tour of Israel with Wade’s group and I told him I was glad Trump had reversed the damage Obama had done to Israel because I’d hate to have 8 million Jews angry at us.

Romycat Black said...

Sally Borrink,

I see fundamentalists pushing Dominion Theology and then it is also in the theology of the charismatics like Mike Bickle, Rick Wiles, and a slew of other folks.

What alarms me is the idea that if a person says he is a christian ,and runs for some sort of government he must be God's choice as a public servant. Even though the fruit of his lifestyle and beliefs say otherwise.

The idea that any candidate will do, in parliament as long as he says the right christian thing is scary. And those who vote in that mindset are feeding this Dominion theology. Because they want to take over parliament. Trump being a prime example. He said the Bible was his favourite book, even says he got saved and low and behold Christians fell for it hook line and sinker. Meanwhile, he's an adulterer, liar, womanizer, greedy, stirs up dissention, corrupt to the core, and has proven he is unstable in word and deed, he preys on the weak and vulnerable but this is all okay because he says he is a Christian.

The utter deception to be behind this guy is unbelieveable and reprehensible. Mind boggling how he is justified by Christians.

And yes I am Canadian. Christiane is on point with her comments. What are you Christian's gonna do with your weak , vulnerable neighbors? Does not the parable of the Samaritan come as an answer to who is my neighbor?

Rex Ray said...

CHRISTIANE,

If Romycat agreed with something I said, I’d worry what I said.

There are two ways to enter our country: Legal and illegal. Should illegals be allowed to break the law because they have children?

If murderers go to prison should they be released because they have children?

Would you let terrorists enter American because they have children?

“Children” is the howl played against Trump for enforcing the law in trying to keep America safe.

BTW, July 4, means more to me since that’s when Judy and I married.

Christiane said...

Hey REX RAY,

now, now
don't pull me into a great big fight between you and Romy, 'cause you know I'd defend you even though I hardly agree with anything you are saying about 'T' :)

I stand by all of my comments about the little ones, though.

My defense of you would be to tell Romy that you have a good heart, and that you are possibly one of the best story tellers around;
on the down-side I'd probably let Romy know that you buy into crazy conspiracy theories, which even if they ARE interesting, are still crazy.

I see children hurting, and I am hurting too. They need for us Americans to put them back with their mothers and fathers. It's the right thing to do.

So we don't agree, but isn't it wonderful that we can at least talk about it openly here? As long as we can do that, it will still be 'America'. When we can no longer talk it out, THEN I feel sorry for everyone involved. Wade is good to us to let people have a voice.

July 4th - Happy Anniversary almost!



If I were a mother in Honduras, and my child was threatened by a gang, I would come north also and try to come in as a refugee legally, but if I was told 'no, we have no room for you now, go back', I would not go back. I also would, for the sake of my child, cross at another place. WHY? I would look at my child and say 'I have no choice, I can't go back'

You know, REX, even God told Joseph to take Mary and the baby to safety in Egypt before Herod's men came to kill the child. Refugees are NOT terrorists. Joseph was not a terrorist. Nor Mary. Nor the Baby . . . it wasn't yet His time to die for us.

It's wrong to take the babies from their mothers. It's just wrong. We are better than this and you know it too. Romy is trying to help people understand 'cause an awful lot of people are confused now by what our country is up to. I've got three military in the family and I am very worried.

Have a great Lord's Day. Get some fire crackers for the Fourth and surprise Judy! :)

Romycat Black said...

I'm just saying stuff other nations/people are thinking and talking about. I have American friends who have lived and worked in America for over 20 yrs and come home or left America because of what is going on in the US.

Sometimes it is good to get other perspectives because we can be blinded by tradition, ignorance, racism, bigotry and different things that we are raised to believe but maybe are not really true.

It takes an enormous amount of humility and a good dose of the Holy Spirit to rectify faulty, ignorant thinking. One which we all as Christians should be the first to step in line for. Instead of digging in our heels we should be people saying " Lord is this in me?"

If we shut ourselves off, turn our hearing and understanding on the lowest setting it does nobody any good.

If someone said what I said about Canada I would really take a look at it. Criticism or different perspectives are not bad.

Sin is abounding and flourishing in the church. Every single day a new pastor has been found guilty of some sexual offence. Pastors are ripping off the sheep in the name of God. False doctrine abounds galore, people practice all sorts of secret sin thinking it is all ojay and then go to church. The church is cortupt in many ways and it affects our ability to see things .

My thing is very few churches are plugging along shoulder to the wheel diligently doing what God asked of us. The church is too concerned about politics the sins of the unsaved rather than looking at our own sins.

A part of it is humility to digest and learn from others. I knew my comments would not be popular.

But sometimes things have to be said. There is sin in the church including nationalism and mixing Gods heavenly, spiritual Kingdom with a worldly kingdom and bringing that wordly kingdom into the church.

The church world wide needs to do a lot of repentance, I think we are missing the boat and not getting things right. The church needs humility.

connie said...

I believe God sets rulers in place, full stop. That means I believe God put Trump in office, just as He put Obama in before him.

God's ways are not our ways. He can use a donkey if He likes. God is not endorsing anyone just because He uses them. He uses the Devil if you want to be technical about it.

All I know is we are commanded to pray for our leaders, not complain about them.

And for the record Wade is absolutely right about the flag thing. I am so sick of American Moral Deism I could spit.

Jon L. Estes said...

Wade - I fully support the decision your church made for your church.

What disturbs me is your content that comes across as saying your church is more spiritual and Kingdom focused than all the other churches that...

1 - Have a USA flag in the worship center
2 - Do a patriotic theme service to support and honor all those who have and do serve.
3 - Do things differently than your church.

You write some excellent articles on what God is doing at your church and lives being touched. Don't stop.

Please though, think about how your proud presentation of the decisions your church makes comes across as legalistic towards those who continue to do what your church has done up until this year.

Rex Ray said...

CHRISTIANE,

Our local paper is so prejudiced against Trump it makes me sick. The other day their usual cartoon against Trump made his mouth ten times normal and for teeth there was bars. The cartoon was based on a real photograph of children from the Border in steel cages. Democrats tweeted the photo, but the truth showed it was made in 2014 when Obama was President as shown by:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/trump-immigration-children-cages-photos-obama-administration-us-president-twitter-a8373926.html

Speaking of Obama, ask Google or whatever how many people did Obama deport.

I’ve tried but can’t get a consistent answer. The number runs from 3 million to 5 million. He deported more than the combined number of three Presidents before him and was given the title: “Deporter in Chief”.

RB Kuter said...

Rex Ray; Listening to the local news this morning reporting how many people are traveling over the 4th of July week, an increased number over recent years. They reported it was due to people having increased disposable income and higher confidence levels. No doubt due to our having the lowest unemployment ever with lower taxes and increasing wages. My retirement investments have never looked this good!

At the same time, the news was reporting saying that "thousands" of people were protesting saying that President Trump was a meany, tearing "families" apart as they shouted, "Families were meant to be together!" Such stellar individuals. Wonder how many of these so concerned for "families" also protested against the "right to life" movement? So consistent.

I am so glad to hear people like them and Christiane and Canadian Romy speak out proclaiming their high morals and despair over the immoral President and the US Government that is focused on maintaining the integrity of its borders/ keeping out international drug cartels and their drug mules that are expanding their territories after totally taking control over Mexico! Romy also points out how terrible Trump and his government continues to function on the basis of the nation's own interests instead of Canada's and the European socials European Union. Yeah! You rock, Romy and Christiane! God must surely have sent you to be our conscience! What prophets!

Where would we be without folks like you guys to keep us moral? Oh, yeah... we would still be back where we were three years ago.

Bill said...

Yea Obama did try and do something to control illegal immigration but his administration did not have a policy of separating children from their parents. Of course there were some separations but these were reunited as soon as possible since the administration did not prosecute parents with children as is being done today. Every time someone mentions anything going on now with the disaster in the White House the response is but what about Obama or what about Clinton. No comparison folks. Not even close.

Christiane said...

Hello Bill,
I do think Trump owns the abuse of the refugee children, yes.
It's his policy that the babies and toddlers be TAKEN from their parents.
It is the worst thing he has done, in my opinion, and we as a nation are shamed because of it.
The heart-breaking emotional harm to the littles is irreparable.

What kind of person does this? Not one that is 'appointed by God', no.

Christiane said...

Hello RB Kuter,

If you want to denigrate 'Canadian Romy' for her nationality, please include me also in that process, as my good father, of blessed memory, was an immigrant from Canada who spoke no English when he came with his family at the age of five. He had been born in St. Armand, Quebec. So I have Canadian DNA and I am very proud of my father's original homeland. I still have family in Quebec although most of the family emigrated to New England in the last century.

And if you want to know WHY I feel so strong about moral conscience as a guide, I am Catholic to the backbone. I don't know 'Romy' or you, but I thought it was important that I stand up for my father's original homeland, which HAS BEEN an ally of the USA for many, many years . . . a strong ally.

Until now, when it looks like Trump has turned against it.

Will Canada ever again trust our nation? Will the Western Alliance ever again trust the USA? I don't know. Our credibility as a committed ally has been put into a state of confusion, and people don't know what to think.

My own opinion is and was, that the minute I heard Trump originally disparage NATO, that he was serving another country's interests. There is only one country that despises NATO and wants it disbanded. It is also a country that is attempting to confiscate other territories that had independence from it.

Well, that helps fill out my profile a little better for you. I don't know yours, and I do not judge, but I hope you will never denigrate your own moral conscience before God for any reason. Have a great Lord's Day. And know that we see things differently and that I accept that with good grace.

Wade Burleson said...

Jon,

You write: "What disturbs me is your content that comes across as saying your church is more spiritual and Kingdom focused than all the other churches that...

1 - Have a USA flag in the worship center
2 - Do a patriotic theme service to support and honor all those who have and do serve.
3 - Do things differently than your church."

I understand.

That's not what I intend to say - though I realize that is how it comes across. I am just asking that people consider the pros/cons and make the appropriate decision - and like you - I will affirm a church's autonomy to do as they please.

Wade Burleson said...

And Jon,

Our church is far from perfect. We are constantly reforming and have much that still needs reformed - beginning with me. I need to listen better. I need to not be as intense when I speak in order that presentation doesn't overtake the message. There are many things I'm working on.

Jon L. Estes said...

Wade,

Thanks for your response. Thinking it through more, you have a following. Not negative by any means but I think you recognize this. I hope no one goes to their Pastor and creates a problem for him and the church because they are not where you and your church are. That thoughts of their church needing to be more spiritual, like your church is being presented.

I don’t think that is your intent but having the following you do, please be careful. You write well and I know you can write where you don’t, even unintentionally, create a problem for other churches you are not pastor of.

Christiane said...

Hi JON,
my goodness, I think Wade's 'Refuge' program itself would 'shake up' many in the evangelical world, but for good reasons. For the best reasons.

Some things are so deeply rooted in the Holy Gospels of Our Lord that when they are put into practice, all around seems pale in comparison, but that should not be a PROBLEM. Rather it should be an encouragement . . . to TRY . . . to open doors and make welcome and offer Our Lord's goodness through example over time with patient care and a kindness like that of Our God, regardless of the broken 'presenting' conditions of the ones who seek Christ.

I believe Wade's 'Refuge' program IS deeply rooted in the Holy Gospels. May it go from strength to strength.

Jon L. Estes said...

Christiane,

This has nothing to do with the refuge ministry. I admire their work in this area.

My church works with the labor camps here in the UAE. Our church is open to many laborers from many different countries. We go to them and reach many for Christ. I have spoken in the last 30 days at two different Telugu church groups and we are seeing God do some amazing things.

My comments refer to the choice I support his church making concerning the American flag and his presentation of the story.

Jon L. Estes said...

Christiane,

Google the “Labor Camps in the UAE” to get a glimpse of the people we love to reach. Look at the images.

RB Kuter said...

"I don't know yours, and I do not judge, but I hope you will never denigrate your own moral conscience before God for any reason."

Sounds like "judging" to me.

Go Canada! Go Europe! Go Romy! Go Christiane!

Christiane said...

Hello Jon,
yes, I will google for that info.
Sorry about misunderstanding.

Christiane said...

Hello RB,
Likely we define 'moral conscience' in very different ways which is no one's fault, so it is not surprising that we see things differently. Wishing you well.

Anonymous said...

"Everything we do is based on biblical principles, so if a policy contradicts a biblical principle, the policy will change."

Thanks for the reply, Wade. I personally don't take issue with separating Christ and country, but it sounds like there was an executive decision made by you in reference to what's on display in the building where people are gathered in one place?

What would you do if people (who disagreed) gathered the next time wearing USA flag shirts and held miniature flags and kept doing the same week in a week out? Ask that they quit because they are "violating biblical principle"?

What if you didn't own a place and had to meet in coffee shops, schools (or similar) where there might be a USA flag displayed? Ask to remove it temporarily, or not meet in such a place?

Almost seems like a smidgeon of Old Covenant attitude at work here when you have to remove an object to remain "biblical", instead of adjusting one's thinking. Life/attitude itself is worship, not a particular place.

Just my 2 cents! Ken

Rex Ray said...

RB Kuter,

Wonder why you and I agree so much? I hope it’s because we see truth. :)

You wrote: “the news was reporting saying that “thousands” of people were protesting saying President Trump was a meany, tearing families apart…”

Our Sunday newspaper headlines: “Hundreds of thousands protest Trump’s immigration policies”

It went on to quote Antonio Lopez: “Trump deserves to be jailed for his immigration policies. He is kidnapping those kids. It’s a violation of the Constitution.”

I’ll bet Hillary is walking on cloud nine. Since she lost the election ‘fake news’ has been trying to bring Trump down. It wouldn’t surprise me if the cost of ‘fake news’ lowered the Clinton’s Foundation just a tad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinton_Foundation

This link states: “Through 2016 the foundation had raised an estimated $2 billion from U.S. corporations, foreign governments and corporations, political donors, and various other groups and individuals.”

Bill said...

Rex Ray since you seem to be a Trump supporter could I ask you a couple of questions concerning your personal beliefs. Would you say that you and Mr.Trump hold similar beliefs concerning honesty,morality,trust and views of women just to name a few traits of Mr. Trump we all are so aware of? Do you pretty much follow the same path through life as Mr.Trump concerning these things and do you approve of such behavior?

Rex Ray said...

Bill,

God chose David for the linage of his Son. Do you think of David as the Giant killer, or as an adulterer and murderer?

How can I judge Trump when I’ve never worn his shoes? I look at Trump as he is NOW and in a position to help America.

You previously said, “Obama…did not have a policy of separating children from their parents.”

Did you not see the photo of Obama’s cage in 2014? There were no adults in the cage; only children. He did not get the title “Deporter in Chief” for kindness.

Bill said...

I did not ask you to judge him. I asked you if you approve of some of the same beliefs and practices he adheres to and are your beliefs and his similar. Like I said before you people always go back to the what about Obama and Clinton argument. This is not about Obama or Clinton. This is about what Mr. trump believes and obviously practices. Are your beliefs and practices similar.Simple question.

RB Kuter said...

Rex Ray, I don't know why we seem to fall in the same spot on so many diverse issues, but apparently, there are millions of others that fall close to that spot as well.

Things are very intense these days between those holding to various ideologies and political opinions. It is very difficult to have a civil dialogue where we maintain the respect of each other's right to disagree. I believe this is why so many of your persuasion, and mine, avoid speaking up publicly at all in defense of their position. They choose to reserve their opinion and to speak their mind in the voting booth on election day instead. That's why the polls were so inaccurate the past election.

But I "think" that you and I have some personal similarities in regard to our being the type of individuals that refuse to allow some comments in which we disagree to pass without being challenged. So we speak up even though it goes against the winds of the "politically correct" and what is popular in the temporal trend of social opinion. Maybe those who remain silent to avoid the conflict of confrontation with the aggressive leftists are the wise ones and people like you and I are foolish. I tend to speak out a bit more in the hope of portraying to any others that think like me to know that they are not alone.

At the same time, I certainly do recognize that devotion to Jesus Christ is what it is all about and that it is critical that He remains sovereign in my purpose. For that reason, I do regret when the expression of my political views and my devotion to my country get a bit too passionate so as to conflict with my desire to portray to others the love and grace of Christ in my life. That's a tough call to make in terms of deciding when to speak out and when to remain silent on important civil matters. I'll seek God's guidance and wisdom on that and ask for His forgiveness for those times when I go beyond what my Master would approve.

Rex Ray said...

Bill,

My beliefs and practices are similar to Trump in that we’re both Christians and pray to God. We believe the Bible and NOT “The Holy Koran tells us…” as Obama said in Cairo.

Bill, I don’t see why you condemn Trump when he replaced a Muslim President that bowed to a Muslim King; and I believe will go down in history as the worst President America has ever had.

I’d suggest you read Wade’s post more carefully and if you have problems, take it up with him.

Victorious said...

Anyone who can say he could walk down the street and shoot someone and still get the votes cannot represent Christianity.

One columnist wrote in my local newspaper what I think sums up the last year under our country's leader. I agree with this...

"Our sensibilities have been bludgeoned into submission. Surprises no longer surprise; shocks no longer shock. We have bumped up against the limits of human bandwidth, and find ourselves unable to take it all in. One simply cannot keep up with, much less respond with proper outrage to, all of this guy's scandals, bungles, blame-shifting, name-calling and missteps, his sundry acts of mendacity, misanthropy, perversity and idiocy. It's like trying to fill a teacup from Niagara Falls...."

My thoughts:

Something is very wrong when we worry more about a flag made of fabric as representative of our country than we do about how the presidency is representing our country.

Anyone who knows how a sexual predator grooms his victims in order to accomplish a loathsome goal, should recognize that a similar tactic has been used on the citizens of our country. Many now find themselves excusing the inexcusable.

You can often hear the canned retorts; don't judge....we're all sinners....we all make mistakes....

But hey! The stock market is soaring!! Our values are showing, aren't they??

Christiane said...

'For there is a true law: right reason. It is in conformity with nature, is diffused among all men, and is immutable and eternal; its orders summon to duty; its prohibitions turn away from offense . . . . To replace it with a contrary law is a sacrilege; failure to apply even one of its provisions is forbidden; no one can abrogate it entirely.'
(Cicero)


If our country has taken offense against refugees fleeing persecution (as Joseph and Mary sought to flee from Herod at the angel's warning)
and if our country has sought to punish the most innocent of these little creatures of God, and if our country has done this 'legally',
THEN we as a nation must pay a TERRIBLE price for doing this.
Each of us, each one, who looks away while the innocents suffer is complicit in the sacrilege. As a nation, we are changed by this persecution of infants and toddlers and young children. But we have a choice: not to 'look away'; not to be 'silent'


some time ago, I wrote about this:

"Deep within his conscience,
man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey.
Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . .
For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . .
His conscience is man's most secret core and his sanctuary.
There he is alone
with God, Whose Voice echoes in his depths."

'Authority' may teach, it may offer guidance, and give direction, but for a Christian person, no 'authority' can ever take the place of his or her own moral conscience.

I wondered what was troubling me about this discussion . . . and it looks like perhaps for many who are not of my faith, there is little or no recognition of the supreme importance of informed 'conscience' as moral guide, within the whole tradition of mainstream Christianity.

Samuel Clemens, who wrote under the name of 'Mark Twain' once cautioned people, this:
"re-examine all you have been told in school or church or in any book, and dismiss whatever insults your own soul"

Perhaps he had a insight that might prove useful in our own time,
when we are pulled this-way and that way by so many who would decide for us too many things,
and if we let them decide for us, our own hearts must 'look away'.

We were not made for that.

Don't look away from the 'legal' incarceration of infants, and very young children forcibly taken from their mothers' arms. If you are a Christian person, you answer to a 'higher' law, the Royal Law of Christ impels you to stand up for the innocent littles who are being persecuted unjustly. We are to WITNESS to Christ with our whole beings and not to remain silent in the face of evil.

Rex Ray said...

Victorious,

You said, “Anyone who can say he could walk down the street and shoot someone and still get the votes cannot represent Christianity.”

You know in your heart Trump said that as a joke to illustrate the loyalty of his fans’.

It’s easy to see the columnist you quote has drank Kool-Aid.

Do you watch CNN, Fox News, or both? You know Obama hated Fox news. I believe one reason why Hillary lost was that he endorsed her.

My wife records “Outnumbered” as her favorite show. It consists of 4 women and 1 man. The women are two Republicans and two Democrats. There are a lot of different men as the guest. They may be R. or D. They discuss and argue current events that are about politics.

Victorious said...

Rex, You said, "You know in your heart Trump said that as a joke to illustrate the loyalty of his fans’."

What I do know is that what's in one's heart comes out of his mouth. Those are the things that defile a person.

You said, "It’s easy to see the columnist you quote has drank Kool-Aid."

Oh, yes....he should have agreed that the things that come out of Trump's mouth are:

* just locker room talk
* just hyperbole
* just a joke
* just him "punching back" when he's insulted
* appropriate nicknames like Low energy Jeb; Low-life Elizabeth Warren (Pocahontas); Maniac, whack-job, rocket man (guess who); FBI Director Comey "slimeball", "little Marco" (Rubio) and on and on.

I think the columnist I referred to was right on and if we can justify overlooking all these things Fox News reports:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/04/17/trumps-nicknames-for-rivals-from-rocket-man-to-pocahontas.html

....then we are excusing the inexcusable and and in refusing to hold the President to a high standard that we should expect from leaders, then we are also neglecting to judge the righteous judgement.

RB Kuter said...

Guys; personally, I see little profit in even continuing the discourse. We certainly will not persuade one another to shift one iota on our political convictions. I know I scratch my head in wonder at the rationale of Christiane and Victorious and those of their persuasion but I am sure they do the same in regard to Rex and me.

This is pretty common when we get into political dialogue with those with whom we disagree and unfortunately, it damages relationships and undermines our ability to discuss other interesting topics introduced on Wade's site with civility.

Recently, a close nephew and I slipped up by allowing just a very brief reference to our political position to surface in a casual conversation. It was enough to reveal our having a difference of opinion. Even though we quickly diverted our conversation to avoid being offensive, I think that some damage was done. We will have the opportunity to repair it through some additional visits but it was enough to show that discussion on "politics" is like walking in a minefield.

Note: As far as Canadian Romy is concerned, I believe that when anyone begins criticizing another country's political issues and personally attacking their national leaders, especially their North American neighbor, they're being uncouth. I actually was shocked but I simply brush their opinion aside with that of other individual foreigners having hostile intent toward us. "Get the log out of your own eye", so to speak. I've had many close Canadian personal friends in the past. I believe our common views far outweigh our differences. I don't agree with some Canadian political positions but cherish our nations' long relationship over the decades and hope that all of Canada's endeavors succeed so as to make them more prosperous. I would never be so brazen as to personally attack their Prime Minister or their nation's political choices.

Sallie Borrink said...

I am a Deplorable from Michigan. I did not vote for Trump in the primaries. (I voted for Ben Carson.) I did, however, go out on a limb a few weeks before the election and stated on Facebook that hell had apparently frozen over because I had come to the same conclusion as Michael Moore. I was convinced Trump was going to win. Not because I wanted him to, but because all the indicators were there. I was seeing the same things Michael Moore was seeing even though we were from completely opposite ends of the spectrum.

For people who took the time to observe, read widely, and watch Trump’s full rallies on YouTube that were streamed by non-MSM and therefore unfiltered by the MSM, the signs were all there. I think some of my liberal FB friends thought I was absolutely nuts when I said that he would win, but I looked a lot less nuts the day after the election. If I could figure it out, then anyone else could who was willing to read beyond their own narrow scope and stop simply regurgitating what the talking heads were saying. People were so blinded by their own feelings and biases that they couldn’t see the big picture.

They still can’t.

Trump won for MANY reasons and anyone who is willing to leave their echo chamber and really look at it can see that clearly. Trying to negatively and hysterically pigeon-hole people who voted for him simply reinforces the reality that some people are unwilling to take off the blinders. But among many professing Christians who voted for him it primarily came down to two things that were big picture items, not policy minutia.

One, the Supreme Court. Two, the other option was so unthinkable from the perspective of eroding our constitutional freedoms it wasn't possible to allow it to happen to our country and the country our children and grandchildren would live in.

As one speaker I listened to on YouTube explained it shortly after the election, Trump was a potential problem since we didn’t know how he would govern. But Hillary was clearly a known problem. People felt more comfortable taking a chance that Trump would follow through on what he claimed he would do, especially when it came to appointing Constitutional conservative judges to the Supreme Court. Justice Scalia passing away before the election probably helped in many ways to elect Trump. So although it was sad that the gentleman passed away, in retrospect it was probably a huge blessing in disguise for conservatives and Trump.

People in these threads keep asking how a Christian could vote for Trump. It’s not complicated.

I have no idea of Trump’s eternal state any more than I have any idea of the salvation of anyone else who posts here. I pray for him and I pray for VP Pence to have a profound witness to Trump. Do the people who are constantly railing at Trump and his perceived lostness pray for him daily? Do they pray for him to seek wisdom from God? Do they ever really listen to him in-depth and listen to his supporters in-depth? Or do they just hate him and the people who voted for him because THEIR conscience required it of them?

I will not defend Trump on every detail any more than I would expect someone who voted for any other president to defend him on every aspect. We vote for flawed leaders. That’s the reality. Anyone who has studied presidential history will know this.

(continued below)

Sallie Borrink said...

(continued)

I say this with all kindness. If you aren’t attempting to read and watch widely and objectively from all parts of the political spectrum (including both the far left and the far right), you have no idea what is going on in this country. We have to do the hard work and dig for the truth now. You will not be informed or understand the big picture unless you look for it. That’s reality. And once you do that, you will be able to see who does the same thing and who doesn’t. It’s obvious from their word choices, the issues they discuss, the way they speak about the “other” side, etc.

If you think Trump is bad for America, you would be better off putting your time in to help get a strong electable candidate to run against him rather than discussing him online because unless something dramatic happens, he is cruising to re-election in 2020. The more irrationally hysterical people are against him, the more Trump voters are created. Again, the signs are all there if you are willing to open your eyes and look.

Sallie Borrink said...

(Sorry. Part of my post was lost when I had to break it up. This should have been in between the two. Character limits! LOL!)

Hillary Clinton was a seriously flawed candidate in a KNOWN way. People who hate Trump ignore that over and over. People knew what they would get with her, and many conservatives and many Christians did not want that. They might not have liked Trump for any number of reasons (and there were a number to choose from), but they held their nose, voted, and prayed that he would do what he said he would do. It was a leap of faith in Trump rather than a known leap into the abyss with Hillary. So far he has done what he said he would do in the areas that matter the most – the Supreme Court and protecting the constitutional rights of American citizens.

I did vote my conscience, something some people seem unwilling to understand. I voted for the sake of my daughter and her future. I voted in the way that I thought was best for the future of the country God saw fit to place me in. I don’t apologize for being an American or thinking the U.S. Constitution is incredibly valuable. Being an American doesn’t make me better or more valuable than a citizen of any other country. But it does mean I have a responsibility to be a good steward of the vote I’m given regarding how this country is run. If you think that doesn’t make any difference, go talk to someone in Venezuela or Cuba or China.

Sallie Borrink said...

RB -

We were apparently posting at the same time. I disagree about not having discussions or sharing views. I wrote what I wrote for the people who read and don't say anything but do think about it and discuss it elsewhere. It's false that people don't change their minds based on what they read on the internet. I have changed my views about at least a couple of issues based on persuasive and thoughtful arguments I've read or watched online.

My two cents. Your mileage may vary. :-)

Wade Burleson said...

Sallie,

Well written comments.

Thanks.

Gerry Milligan said...

Wade, you said "I know about half of you reading this are now very angry. I'm asking you to continue reading even if you disagree with me about my politics, especially if you are a professing Christian." First, I am a born again believer but I am not angry with your voting for a thrice married admitted adulterer who has a problem with truth. No, I am disappointed that a born again believer could vote for this man. But, as Russel Moore tried to say the choices were dismal. But, I am hopeful that things will get better and more honest.

Victorious said...

Sallie,

You said: "People in these threads keep asking how a Christian could vote for Trump. It’s not complicated."

I, for one, do not find this question arising in the discussion boards I am involved with. What I am finding is an unwillingness among believers to admit the obvious...and I find that very troubling. Do we really think that this president respects our constitution? Does he respect the system of checks and balances or have we not seen him vilify the judicial and legislative branches, the FBI, the news press, the special council currently investigating as well as insulting individual members on national tv? Does he show respect for our allies and engage in reasonable negotiations or have we not seen and heard his bully tactics when referencing them?

He has overestimated his power and seriously lacks the ability to interact with diplomacy. He may have fired more people in the past year than he did in all episodes of the Apprentice. (slight exaggeration....;)

So...what I find so troubling is our willingness to pretend these traits and behaviors are
not seriously lacking the expected standard of the office of the president. He may be be elected to another term, but if that happens, we will have no one to blame but ourselves for being complicit in covering up and white-washing his failure to respect our constitution and the members who serve along side of him.

I've not seen anyone judge his salvation, but as believers hopefully we recognize there are indications he has an inflated sense of his power and a continual marginalization of others who serve in our government.

Christiane said...

Hello Rex Ray,

I've been pondering your comment, this:
"You know in your heart Trump said that as a joke to illustrate the loyalty of his fans’."

And, in her last comment, I think Victorious points out something you might consider, this:

". . . . have we not seen him vilify the judicial and legislative branches, the FBI, the news press, the special council currently investigating as well as insulting individual members on national tv?

Rex, my thought is that
IF Trump was 'joking', it is hard to take him seriously (sorry for pun)
BECAUSE he does show some really urgent need to put down and denigrate a legal and judicial system that is investigating HIM

Trump values 'loyalty' not to the law, or the nation, or to justice, but to him personally and that is why I think he was 'bragging' about his fan-base supporters, when he said that he could walk down the street and shoot someone and still get the votes.

In short, I think, in Trump's plan, his denigration of our nation's justice and legal entities is to destroy the credibility of their findings with his 'base'.

As for me, who would I believe?

A five-time draft dodger who is a known liar

OR

a prosecutor who, for his service in and during the Vietnam War, his military decorations and awards include: the Bronze Star Medal with Combat "V", Purple Heart Medal, two Navy and Marine Corps Commendation Medals with Combat "V", Combat Action Ribbon, National Defense Service Medal, Vietnam Service Medal with three service stars, Republic of Vietnam Gallantry Cross, Republic of Vietnam Campaign Medal, and Parachutist Badge

?

RB Kuter said...

Thank you, Sallie Borrink, for being so bold as to state your position. I am glad that you do.

Regarding all of these very spiritual humanists who downgrade Trump supporters due to his being so immoral, consider past Presidents; which of them do you hold to be of the greatest stellar character?

John Kennedy? My goodness, have we ever had a President who was a greater philanderer than Jack?

Oh, maybe Frank Roosevelt? Oops, even righteous Franklin had his live-in squeeze to Eleanor's great embarrassment!

No! Not Slick Willie?!! Just one of the boys!

Jimmie Carter? Well, no publicized shenanigans with the girls, but he is obviously confused in his identification of what is a Christian. Even though he gets hundreds of fans to attend his Sunday School class in Plains, he proclaimed that Mormons should be considered "mainline Christians" as much as Protestants! Whoa! Give me my own planet to be lord over!

I guess George W. was a stellar lad, except that he was a rehabilitated alcoholic, but he did admit and confess to that and got on the recovery course.

Harry Truman? My goodness! You would REALLY throw him under the bus given his foul mouth and fluid cussing exhibitions!

Oh! I know! Richard Nixon! He did, after all, have a Quaker upbringing! We'll overlook his cursing habits exhibited on the Presidential tape recordings; and his Water Gate shenanigans, of course.

Not sure about Ronnie's character prior to committing to Nancy, though we do know she wasn't his first love.

Hillary didn't make it to be President and I guess she didn't have any hidden romances so she must be a saint without faults. Supporting the murder of babes, impeding the justice process, lying during testimony, etc., can't be as bad as talking trash in the locker room, can it?

You know, I think that LBJ might have been the most stellar President, although he did have a pretty rough Texas mouth. I think he was true to Lady Byrd too. Just don't ask Rex Ray about LBJ or he will have you believe he was behind the Kennedy assassination!

I love Gerry's quoting "Russel Moore" who, alongside Al Mohler and others blasted Trump's immoral fiber although they all campaigned for the Mormon Romney who, as a professing JCLDS believes God was a man like us and Mitt will be a god like God!

So to you all; good luck on unearthing your moral giant who doesn't cuss, chew or hang out with those that do as you compromise the superficial in support of those bent on unraveling the moral fabric of the nation. For me, I will vote for those who I personally conclude might best actually promote principles that tend to coincide with God's, although none will do so perfectly. I guess that's what all of us Wade site readers do, right?

Romycat Black said...

The Bible states we will know who is his disciples are by our love.
The Bible says we will know christians by their fruit. Bad fruit no christian.
The Bible days if you dont have love you are a sounding Gong.
The Bible says if whoever does not have love, does NOT KNOW GOD for God is love.

The Bible says our love for each other proves that we have gone from death to life and if you dont love one another you are still under the power of death.

The Bible says dont believe everyone who claims to have the spirit of God.
The Bible days cowards, immoral, all liars , the sexually immoral, idolaters, those who practice magic will go to the firery lake of sulfur.

The Gospel is simple. According to these things that are in the Bible Trump does not know God. He does not love, he does not know God. I dont know him as a disciple or a brother in Christ because he does not love, he sounds like a gong.

The Biblesays not to believe everyone who claims christ. I don't believe he knows Christ just cuz he says.

Its not that hard to define if Trump is a christian or not.

He lies . Facts he says are facts are actually not true especially if you do your homework on Nafta, especially the milk industry.( it was in peril before Trump and it has nothing to do with Canada or Tariffs) He lies about anything and everything and can be proven by a bit of study. He is immoral. Stormy Daniels.The filth he spews about women and even his own daughter. He is greedy and and idolater.

The Bible spells things out clear and simple. No ifs ands or buts.

What absolutely astounds me are people who say they are Christians, ignore the scriptures that define a disciple of Christ and those that are not, and say Trump is a Christian.

So either the Bible is wrong on it's criteria and definition or those claiming Trump is a Christian are wrong.

The only person Trump loves is himself. And the Bible says in the last days there will be ,overs of self, puffed up from pride, treacherous, rash,lovers of money, abusive, unholy,ungrateful , disobedient to parents.....have nothing to do with them. I am assuming that nothing means nothing...

I just don't get it. Clinton, Trump....they both dont qualify as a disciple of Christ do they?

Rex Ray said...

Hey, RB Kuter,

You really know how to get me going on how LBJ masterminded the murder of JFK. So I asked Google how many books blame LBJ for the murder of JFK.

https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=rAA7W8ulO8iosgXQo4f4DQ&q=How+many+books+blame+LBJ+for+the+murder+of+JFK&btnK=Google+Search&oq=How+many+books+blame+LBJ+for+the+murder+of+JFK&gs_l=psy-ab.3...3337.35683..39198...0....1222.7128.11j34j1j1j7-1......0....1..gws-wiz.....0..0j35i39j0i131j0i20i264j0i22i30j33i22i29i30j33i21j33i160.OrJO8j0wk1A%3D

This link tells of ten sources but doesn’t name my favorite book, “LBJ and the Kennedy Killing by eyewitness James T. Tague.”

He lived in Bonham, TX. (my hometown) and became a friend.

He was wounded by a stray bullet that first hit the curb where he was standing. JFK had three bullet wounds, and there were three shells at the sniper’s window. This made the ‘Warren Commission’ to invent the magic bullet that produced seven wounds.

LBJ’s car was usually behind JFK’s car, but at Dealey Plaza his car was several cars back.

A motorcycle policeman said LBJ hit the floorboard 30 seconds before the first shot was fired.

LBJ was to be sworn in on the runway of the Dallas airport. But Judge Sarah Hughes apologized for not having a copy of the ‘oath’ she had to use. LBJ just happened to have one in his pocket.

JFK’s wife still wore her blood soaked cloths as she watched LBJ become President. She said later: “She was sorry she had washed her hands and face because she wanted them to know what they’d done to Jack.”

Christiane said...

Good Morning REX RAY,

I just read your story about Hez and Orthel Large which was wonderful.
(Fri Jun 29, 10:33:00 AM 2018)

From my point of view, the truth is that you do stories far better than you do conspiracy theories.

I vote for MORE stories. Yours are the BEST! :)

Christiane said...

For Romy, may you be en'COURAGE'd :)

"We may not agree on what to do, but most of us know what we would do, if we had the wits, or the freedom, or the imagination, or the courage.

The church has been longer on advice than it has been on “underneath nurture.”
Perhaps that is because advice is easier to give than is freedom or courage, and more obvious, too.

Or perhaps it is because as liberals or as conservatives, we feel so passionately that we want to get everybody else straightened out. The problem is that the others are not very much open to coercion either, as we are not open.

It is a time, in my judgment, when the church may lower its voice about advice, and speak more gently and healthily and honestly about the nurture of faithful imagination, freedom, and courage.
That stuff is not in large supply among us,
and when it is not, our lives are diminished."

(from 'The Gospel of Hope' Walter Brueggemann, author)

Christiane said...

For them what loves children, there is the gentle story of Paddington Bear and these days, it is a good thing to share his story with the children in hopes they may learn of kindness. :)

"Paddington Bear as a "refugee with a label." It's true, too:
Paddington arrived to England from deepest, darkest Peru, and even carried around a picture of his aunt wearing a poncho. But what makes "Please look after this bear" such a special quote is the tenderness it implies, as well as a call for the simple act of humanity — of looking out for each other."

so it was that Paddington Bear was stowed away on a boat and came to live in another land where he was 'looked after' with much kindess.

So if you have time, and there are children about to read to, pick up a copy of Paddington Bear at the library and sit down where it's peaceful and have a good read with the little ones. I think the lack of kindness in our world is the greatest sin of all. The children need to know what 'kindness' looks like, so they may grow up towards the light. :)

Sallie Borrink said...

I’d like to go point by point and respond to everyone, but I can’t. I need to work. I’m self-employed and if I don’t work, I don’t eat. I spent a lot of time yesterday writing what I did when I probably should have been working. I can’t do that again today. But I didn’t want to just disappear and say nothing.

Trying to reduce a conversation regarding Trump down to sound bites and trying to catch people saying something you want to hear so you can think “gotcha!” isn’t helpful. I’m a big picture person. I read widely and synthesize information. It’s what I do. I attempted to synthesize what I’ve observed in the big picture before, during, and after the election. I attempted to synthesize what I'm seeing about the next election. People can take it or leave it. It's simply what I've observed and shared.

I’m also not going to defend viewpoints I haven’t interacted with or ever stated. I’m sure there are Christians running around saying all kinds of things online about Trump that I don’t agree with. If you notice, I never said I voted for Trump because I thought he was a Christian. Ever. Because I didn’t. But it’s like no matter what anyone says about Trump short of condemning him as Satan incarnate is totally missed because people will not read what you say without filtering it through their hatred for him.

If you think Trump is lost, do you pray daily for his salvation? Do you pray daily that the scales would fall from his eyes and He would truly meet Christ? Because if you are saved and you discern that he isn’t, it would seem you would have a responsibility to pray for him and VP Pence (who by all accounts IS your brother in Christ). If you truly feel Trump is a real threat to the USA and world, then it would seem to me you
would be praying for his salvation daily.

I’ll say it again. If you aren’t reading widely, you aren’t going to understand what is going on in this country. If you don’t read widely, you are not going to understand who Trump is or what he is doing. If all you see when you look at Trump is evil, you don’t see the big picture.

Have a lovely day!

Rex Ray said...

CHRISTIANE,

AH, since you think my “conspiracy theories” are not so hot; how about proving Oswald was innocent?

These 9 facts in James Tague book with page numbers as (#) and my comments in [ ] will prove Oswald did not kill anyone.

1. Carolyn Arnold saw Oswald eating in the lunchroom on the second floor at 12:15. JFK was killed at 12:30 (#47).

2. Marrion Baker, policeman, thought the shooter was on the roof but had to take the stairs because the two elevators were at the 5th floor with the electricity cut off for 3 minutes [which let assassins hide their guns and escape on the elevator as the electricity was on again.] Baker pulled a gun on Oswald in the lunchroom on the 2th floor 75 seconds after the first shot was fired. Oswald was calm and released after he was identified as an employee. Afterwards, Oswald bought a soda from a soft-drink-machine. Baker continued up the stairs to the 5th floor and saw one elevator had gone down. He took the other elevator to the 7th floor. (#44) (#373)

3. Employees, Vickie Adams and Sandra Styles, were watching through a window on the 4th floor as shots were fired. Since the elevators were not working they immediately went down the stairs and outside without seeing anyone. (#214)

4. If Oswald had shot Kennedy from the 6th floor, he’d had to hide his rifle on the 5th floor, and be in the lunchroom in 75 seconds without being out of breath. Also, since the women had a head start of two floors, he would have the impossible task of running past them without being seen. (#217)

5. After drinking the soda, Oswald casually walked out of the front door and caught a bus. After the bus got stalled in traffic, he got a taxi but not before waiting for the bus driver to give him a transfer that was stamped 12:40 which was on him when he was arrested.) (#95) [Would a killer on the run wait for a transfer?]

6. Attorney General of Texas, Waggoner Carr, said Oswald was hired by the FBI in September 1962 as an informant with a salary of $200 a month. (#179) Oswald had been put at the TSBD (October 15, 1963…five weeks before the assassination. (#205)

7. Tague said, “It’s evident to me that the taxi ride to Oak Cliff [to his apartment] gave Oswald a moment to think, and he panicked knowing he was a patsy. (#97) [TV quoted him saying: “I’m a patsy.”]

8. Oswald rushed in and out of his room so fast, his landlady, Earlene Roberts said, “My, you’re sure in a hurry.” (#95) [He probably got his pistol. He was accused of shooting a policeman, but the bullets did not match.]

9. “A theater cashier called police and reported a suspicious wild-looking man had entered the Texas Theater.” (#96) [In the lunchroom, Oswald faced a policeman’s gun and stayed clam because he hadn’t done anything wrong, but now fear of being a ‘patsy’ had him looking for someplace to hide.]

Christiane said...

Hey Rex Ray,
it IS interesting, I will give you that

but

I'm not into conspiracy theories . . . except for ONE time

It was then:
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/20427730/ns/us_news-military/t/air-force-official-fired-after-nukes-fly-over-us/#.Wzu-f9JKi70

Rex, I got it from my military family members that things 'like this' aren't 'accidents'. They thought it sounded 'funny' (as in 'something was going on', so knowing them, I bought into the whole thing as an extremist plot against the nation)
By the time I spent a week thinking about it, I had cooked up a lot of 'theories' in my head about 'who' was 'doing what' and I got very intense about my ideas. It was not my best hour. But I do know the experience of suspecting that something was not as it was presented in the press and by the government. Sure, it's interesting, but it all gets crazy.

What I'm afraid of is like in that story about the little boy who cried 'wolf', one of these days, some REAL conspiracy will have taken place and everyone will say 'oh no, couldn't have happened' and WHAMM, are we ever going to be in for it. :)

Don't forget to buy an anniversary present for Judy! And Happy Fourth! Let's celebrate our freedom while we still can!

Christiane said...

". . . IN THE END THE SHADOW WAS ONLY A SMALL AND PASSING THING:
THERE WAS LIGHT AND HIGH BEAUTY FOR EVER BEYOND ITS REACH
(JRR Tolkien)


A wonderful thing happened:
a lawyer found out how much was needed to bail out a mother being held in Arizona (her children were transported to New York. So someone in New York raised thirty thousand dollars from about 500 people and the mother was bailed out. Now, she couldn't fly commercially or take the bus to New York to see her kids, so MOTHERS organized a 'relay' of nine drivers who drover her all the way to New York.

But then, when this was publicized, the lawyer reported that she was told no other mothers could be bailed out.
And THEN it was found out that this order came from 'higher ups';
AND THEN it was found out that this whole restriction of 'no bail' was not the real policy being used . . . . so this is being investigated. . . .

Americans (a lot of 'moms') want to help the mothers get to their children. Even if it takes donations, and drivers, and all manner of assistance, a LOT of our people are going to do what they can to get those children with their mothers again. This makes me proud of my country. Very proud. :)

"“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.” (JRR Tolkien)

Romycat Black said...

It is sadly shocking that people are immediatley divided up to liberal/conservative. If I say something online anywhere it is assumed or I get called liberal. I don't have any association, committements, or brainwashing to either side. My news reels dont lean any particular way. I view many different types of news sources , blogs, and forums. I get NBC, ABC, Fox, CNN, BBC, CBC, GLOBAL, CTV to name just a few.

I read left and right stuff. I dont adhere to any particular denomination. And what I find awful is if you have formed an opinion based out of a lot of reading and education from all sides no matter what side you lean on you are labelled.

What I have found over a period of years is people who are from outside a denomination, or party or country can see things differently than those inside.

For instance we have had an influx of Dr.s from South Africa come to Canada. They listen, diagnose and evaluate illness very thorougly not by diagnostic testing but by listening. So curious one day I asked the Dr, why? Why is he asking so many questions? Why is he so thorough?

I had seen many South African Dr.s between two provinces. This one said to me. They are not quick to run to machines because their country is poor and they dont learn on expensive equipment so they dont become lazy and rely on machines. All their training is based on education, listening to the patients complaints and piecing things together. Overall, it leads to really attentive doctoring.

My point is people from outside can sometimes be more knowledgeable, see things that other's have blind spots about. And assuming they dont know or understand because they are from somewhere else or have an outsiders view does not make them wrong.

I really like listening to foreign pastors. Their diverse upbringings, social and political climates has formed them differently than the western church and because of struggle, adversity it has brought them a really balanced approach to Christianity that has not been swayed by political left or right that causes a huge divide in America.

I don't like Trump based on who I see as a person. I don't like him on his qualities he displays. I dont care for him based on the criteria he has given me. Not because of what party he aligns himself with.

I think he is ill equiped to run a country. He has had no training. His social and foreign dealings with many other nations is very poor. He is like a clown or a monkey at a circus. He basically is not fit to run a country and especially a country like America that has power and their hands in a zillion different policies world wide. And he doesn't understand how his words and deeds affect every other country he deals with. And he doesn't care. There is protocal, etiquette, and consequences that affect us all globally and Trump is quite unfit for dealing with all of it.

Until Trump I didn't care who you had in office or what party. But when you get a hot tempered, egocentrical, reactive president who thinks he is the king of the castle to the detriment of other nations and even the USA it becomes my business.

I'm pretty sure what you hear on your newscasts are very different that the views the rest of us have on the outside. It's not fake or swayed by political parties trying to get my vote.

And to the comnenter who says he wouldnt comment on another country's leader or politics? My question is have you never commented on Russia, France, England, China, Mexico, Germany, Vietnam, North Korea ? We all do it.

Rex Ray said...

CHRISTIANE,

Thanks for a more favorable comment than on my ‘conspiracy theories’. :)

Your link told of a B-52 flying for three hours from almost Canada to almost the Gulf of Mexico while carrying six nuclear warheads that were attached to the wings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_United_States_Air_Force_nuclear_weapons_incident
This link states:

“Secretary of the Air Force Michael Wynne and Chief of Staff of the Air Force and General T. Michael Moseley were asked for their resignations, which they gave.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._Michael_Moseley
This link shows his picture, three battles/wars he was in, and list his medals that’s almost as good as a bullet-prof vest. :)

It does not tell his nick-name was “Buzz Moseley” from flying too close to a control tower, or that he had a pilot license before he had a driver’s license.

The reason I know is because he was the kid across the street.

Rex Ray said...

OOPS

I should have asked Judy to check my comment. Should be "...Chief of Staff of the Air Force General T. Moseley..."

Rex Ray said...

It's not my day: should be "...Chief of Staff of the Air Force General T. Michael Moseley..."

That about ruins my whole story.

Christiane said...

Hey Rex Ray,

now THAT is a coincidence! It's a small world.

what I read once was that the Air Force brass tried to blame 70 young people for the incident, but the brass got nailed also

My military family was adamant that this incident was NOT something that was 'accidental' because the protocol for handling nukes is so strict.

Did you know 'Buzz' Moseley as a kid?

Jennie Mayes said...

Rec Ray, Obama is not a Muslim(not that it would matter if he was). Please stop spreading lies. He is a Christian and much classier than DT.

Rex Ray said...

CHRISTIANE,

Small world indeed. I think I saw him once or twice. His father across the street talked of him a lot.

Oh, Judy got an anniversary present a day early. Today, I helped her put together a push grass mower that she bought. :)

I told her I wanted to go to town and buy her something, but she said no…all I want is you.

She knows how to make you feel good.

Rex Ray said...

Romycat Black,

I believe if you put on political boxing gloves or a debate with Sallie Borrink, she’d knock you out in the first round.

RB Kuter said...

Hey, Rex Ray, I wonder if you've heard this one: Last week I was watching a documentary which seemed to very legit using a lot of official-looking US govt documents to support all its claims. They said that Kennedy was killed because he was about to unveil the hidden details about the alien crash in Roswell and the alien beings recovered!

RB Kuter said...

"HAPPY BIRTHDAY UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!"
God, help us to survive another year!

Rex Ray said...

RB Kuter,

Et tu, Brute? :)

Rex Ray said...

RB Kuter,

Just for that I’m firing both barrels. :)

Meet Malcolm E. Wallace,(Mac) (pages 405-410 in Tague’s book). He was an ex-Marine. While working on his Doctorate Degree, he taught at four Universities. He was introduced to LBJ who got him a job for the U.S. department of Agriculture.

LBJ’s sister, Josefa had a boyfriend, John Kinser, who managed a miniature golf course in Austin, Texas. They wanted to start a business and Josefa asked her Senator brother for a loan who turned her down. She reminded him she and Kinser knew how he stole the 1948 Senate election. LBJ considered that blackmail. (Mac’s wife lived in Austin while Mac worked in Washington.)

In 1951, LBJ told Mac that Kinser was having an affair with his wife, and if he wanted to do something about it he would back him. Hot-headed Mac shot Kinser several times. A witness gave his license plate number to police. One of LBJs lawyers defended Mac. (LBJ stayed in a hotel nearby.) The jury found him guilty of murder, but the judge overruled them and sentenced him to 5 years imprisonment, SUPENDED. Mac was free.

If someone was giving LBJ trouble, he paid Mac to get rid of them. Mac’s favorite method was routing exhaust fumes so the driver became unconscious. By 1971, Mac’s bragging he’d killed 17 people for LBJ, and wanting more money got him killed by exhaust fumes.

When JFK was killed, unidentified fingerprints were found in the ‘sniper’s window’. In 1998, the fingerprints were identified as Mac’s.

RB Kuter said...

Rex Ray wrote: "Et tu, Brute? :)"

Oh, I see what you mean. My note, "God help us survive another year" was certainly not meant to ask for God's help in asking us to survive another year of Trump Presidency. To the contrary; my intent was to ask for God's protection from those who would seek to undermine the nation, from within and from without. I also pray for God to protect our President, his family, and all Government leaders, as I always have no matter who is in office.

Rex Ray said...

RB Kuter,

I thought you were making fun of my reasons how Kennedy was killed by your saying, “They said that Kennedy was killed because he was about to unveil the hidden details about the alien crash in Roswell and the alien beings recovered!”

But about Roswell where aliens were found, about 50 years ago I met a stranger who claimed he had seen their bodies. He talked with ‘authority’. Said their clothing was made from something not found on earth. He tried to cut a button off but couldn’t do it. We talked a couple of times.

Richard said...

Sallie, “Trump won for MANY reasons and anyone who is willing to leave their echo chamber and really look at it can see that clearly.”

Trump won because of the racist and nativist stuff he spewed during his campaign. That’s all it is. If you’re a white person typing those words: you need to wake the heck up. You’re not a minority. The minority vote in this country is so terrified of this man, they voted blue in record droves.

Even if you insist “I voted for him because SCOTUS”- you decided that the racist, nativist, sexual assaulting, habitually lying, morally bankrupt individual of Donald Trump wasn’t a deal breaker.

To the tune of 87% of Evangelicals didn’t think those things were deal breakers. The church needs to do better.



And yet we have the white-privaledge blindness to sit around and wonder why the church in America has largely lost any and all influence? The church has to do better. Not voting would have even been a perfectly viable option which would have maintained the church’s integrity and given them a platform to more easily denounce the awful policies of this Administration. Or vote for Gary Johnson. (I know, I know, for some reason in conservative circles, voluntarily marijuana consumption is much worse than sexually assaulting a woman and bragging about it). Now, Evangelicals are between a rock and a hard place and trying to defend this man as long as they can.

I just ponder where’s the line for the evangelical conservatives, here? Will we finally reach it if we discover that Donald Trump paid for a hooker’s abortion?

Sallie Borrink said...

richard said:

Even if you insist “I voted for him because SCOTUS”- you decided that the racist, nativist, sexual assaulting, habitually lying, morally bankrupt individual of Donald Trump wasn’t a deal breaker.

No, I decided that your characterization of Trump concerned me less than allowing an elitist, globalist, multiple sexual assault enabling, habitually lying under oath, morally bankrupt running a crime syndicate with a trail of suspicious dead bodies in her wake who said "what difference does it make?" activist judge appointing woman to get into office.

I have no problem with Christians who chose not to vote if that is what their conscience demanded of them. That is between them and God.

There are a lot of different articles and videos out there regarding voter turnout that people can pick apart over the nuances, but the minority vote did not turn out in record numbers. That much is clear. minorities did not fear Trump so much they went out of their way to vote for Hillary. Anyone can google it and read reports for hours.

And the white guilt thing doesn't work on me.

If this is how you speak to a sister in Christ who disagrees with you, you must be a lot of fun at the church potluck.

Happy Independence Day everyone!

David said...

Richard said, "Trump won because of the racist and nativist stuff he spewed during his campaign. That’s all it is. If you’re a white person typing those words: you need to wake the heck up. You’re not a minority. The minority vote in this country is so terrified of this man, they voted blue in record droves."

And yet, those "droves" weren't enough, even with California. Richard, have you heard of the #walkaway movement that is made up of liberal voters who now realize that they were manipulated by the media to think that Trump was something that he wasn't? Check out what those people are saying.

One person said was on board with the fear and loathing campaign around Trump until he began asking people back home (in rural Nebraska) why they had voted for him. To his astonishment, they told him about Obama-era regulations that had crippled their small businesses. He didn't realize people were voting because of issues, policies, and real stuff and not because of all the pet character issues which were a lot of smoke if you look into it deeply.

Like the one about Trump supposedly mocking a disabled reporter. When he found that it was a total distortion, he kept researching, his anger rising as he realized a great many of the issues were questionable in their presentation. This is a liberal person waking up and seeing he was manipulated by the media.

And did you see the research last week where 70% of those polled believe the media makes up much of what they report? Have YOU bought into the lies of the media? They're being proven wrong time and time again by those who aren't lazy and do the work of a journalist.

I was 85% on board for Trump. I was 110% against Hillary and the Leftists. You can complain about "purity" of the two choices, but to not vote for Trump was to vote for Hillary, and we'd be in a deep-deeper hole to dig out of politically. Those rulings by SCOTUS would have been the other way last week.

Christiane said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Rex Ray said...

CHRISTIANE,

Looks like Trump has listened to the protest of children being separated and changed the policy.

https://www.npr.org/2018/06/19/621065383/what-we-know-family-separation-and-zero-tolerance-at-the-border

This link states: “President Trump signed an executive order reversing his policy of separating families — and replacing it with a policy of detaining entire families together, including children, but ignoring legal time limits on the detention of minors.”

Christiane said...

Hey Rex Ray,

I deleted my comment, sorry.
His policy did not need an 'executive order' to be rescinded, just a phone call. But I think, considering the out cry, he panicked and wanted to make a 'show' of 'doing the right thing'

however

see if you can find his 'plan' for re-uniting the children with their parents and then let the rest of the country and me know what it is

I hope you read my comment that contained this:
"A wonderful thing happened:
a lawyer found out how much was needed to bail out a mother being held in Arizona (her children were transported to New York. So someone in New York raised thirty thousand dollars from about 500 people and the mother was bailed out. Now, she couldn't fly commercially or take the bus to New York to see her kids, so MOTHERS organized a 'relay' of nine drivers who drover her all the way to New York.

But then, when this was publicized, the lawyer reported that she was told no other mothers could be bailed out.
And THEN it was found out that this order came from 'higher ups';
AND THEN it was found out that this whole restriction of 'no bail' was not the real policy being used . . . . so this is being investigated. . . .

Americans (a lot of 'moms') want to help the mothers get to their children. Even if it takes donations, and drivers, and all manner of assistance, a LOT of our people are going to do what they can to get those children with their mothers again. This makes me proud of my country. Very proud. :) "

Rex, thanks for the comment about Trump signing an executive order, but we are waiting to see the children together with their moms (and dads)..... especially the little ones who don't understand 'why?' and who are totally innocent and yet suffer such sadness

Happy Anniversary! And Happy Fourth!
I have hope that we will all see happier days when this darkness leaves our land and no more innocent children, who cannot understand, are punished by our government.

Christiane said...

A Fourth of July Meditation for 2018

"The New Colossus"

"Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!” "
(Emma Lazarus,1883)

I think of the Statue of Liberty, which I have seen from many an airplane over NYC, and I have been PROUD of it,
and now when I read the words of Emma Lazarus, I feel sad and strangely lost

I’m more inclined to envision the Trump
. . . and of the ruins of a monument that might be raised to Trump’s memory in some far dystopian future,
and in those ruins, we would find ANOTHER kind of words, not unlike the poem by Shelley, this:

“Ozymandias”
BY PERCY BYSSHE SHELLEY

“I met a traveller from an antique land,
Who said—“Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
And on the pedestal, these words appear:
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.”


And if I stop and remind myself that it is our country’s fate to endure this present moment, I remember then the wise Prophet Simon who had warned us in those days when we were young and smug:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCmgKSUXH18

Rex Ray said...

CHRISTIANE,

Yesterday, Judy bought herself an anniversary present, a push lawnmower to go with the riding lawnmower. Hey! I did help her put it together. :)

https://www.snopes.com/news/2018/06/27/did-80-percent-undocumented-without-parent/

This link states:

80% of minors cared for by Health and Human Services arrived in the US alone, unaccompanied, without a parent. They were not separated by the government. June 20, 2018

RB Kuter said...

"see if you can find his 'plan' for re-uniting the children with their parents and then let the rest of the country and me know what it is"

Uh...here's one and I bet President Trump would be receptive to it; may even already have it:
-have buses at the southern border to load on the illegal invaders and drive them back deep into their own countries?
-Put up a 40 foot high, double wall along the full length of the southern border with a 20-yard canal space running in between and deep metal barriers implanted 10 feet beneath the ground to minimize tunneling. Even if it costs 1/2 trillion bucks, we'll make it back in 10 years and it will serve as a barrier for the invading international drug cartels who are taking over the U.S. (We're ignorantly complacent like a frog sitting in a pot of water over a slow burner).
-Build giant detention center camps just inside the border wall with high-security prison wall/fence to impound all those claiming to be seeking asylum due to imposed threats against them by the meanies in their home country until their claims can be founded, sponsors acquired, visa process completed and job placement in the US assured before letting them out. Always with the option that they can be carried back home if they choose. - Keep their children with them in the camps. Let them farm their own plots and earn at least a portion of their room and board in inside work projects while detained.
- Should no credible evidence be discovered qualifying them as legitimate asylum seekers, send them home with their children on the bus.

"The church needs to do better."
Boy, if "Richard" is a member of the church he is REALLY right; it needs a lot of improvement!

"But about Roswell where aliens were found, about 50 years ago I met a stranger who claimed he had seen their bodies. He talked with ‘authority’. Said their clothing was made from something not found on earth. He tried to cut a button off but couldn’t do it. We talked a couple of times."
Rex Ray; I don't know the stranger you met so have no clue as to the legitimacy of his claims but I have learned to NEVER shrug off your comments and input no matter how astounding they seem initially. If "you" claimed to had seen them, I would certainly believe it. If only we had a "Rexepedia" site to go to!

Do you think that if "aliens" from another planet begin invading our country that we should let them in without having gone through a proper visa process? I think they should first have to learn the English language, study up on our Constitution, agree to "assimilate" into our culture, get a job, pledge to be loyal American citizens, pledge allegiance to the American flag, register with the Selective Service Board, and pay taxes. But first keep them in the detention camps on our southern border so that any claims they might have that they are fleeing religious persecution in their home planets is legit.

Hmmm..how would we get such evidence?

Of course, there are those who would want them to just come in and live with none of those prerequisites other than their having the right to vote; for their party's candidates.

Otherwise, send them on their way back to where they came from!

Christiane said...

Hi Rex Ray,

The protests of 'moms' in this country involves young children, and some toddlers, and some babies, being TAKEN from their parents involuntarily;
NOT under-age minors who cross the border on their own

I would look for more sources of information, but if 20% of 'minors' cared for came WITH their parents, that is still a lot of children.

The total info is sketchy because when congressmen and senators first came to visit these 'shelters', they were turned away. Even the Red Cross which offered its help was told it was 'not needed'. And no press was let in.

All was very secretive. Apparently under orders, likely because the Trump people knew that if this got out it would explode.

And THEN the powers that be started moving the kids all around the country, far from where their parents were incarcerated. Very sad business. People can do a lot of things and get away with it apparently (look at Scott Pruitt); but tormenting little ones by taking them away from their moms and dads, that is so wrong. So very, very wrong.



Christiane said...

So, REX RAY,

Judy got a push lawnmower for her first anniversary. (sigh)

In our family, we also give strange practical gifts, like the time my brother bought his wife Bonnie a bulldozer because she wanted to have one to dig the muck out from underneath the bridge that is on their farm property. Yep. Bonnie got a bulldozer. For Christmas. And she USED it!

Judy sounds like a really nice sensible person, and I sure hope she has a sense of humor. :)


Rex Ray said...

CHRISTIANE

Yesterday, Judy and I had a lot better celebration of our third anniversary than last year where I was in a hospital with a fractured back.

I’m surprised no one has commented about “Mac’s fingerprints found in the “sniper’s window”.

A 22 pistol can shoot different size bullets. A ‘short’ make less noise than a ‘long rifle’.

Once upon a time, a cassette recorder revealed 13 gunshots in six seconds. It revealed eight gunshots had the same sound and were the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th, 7th, 9th, 11th, and 13th. Louder gunshots were 3th, 5th, 8th, 10th, and 12th. Some gunshots were so close together it’d be impossible to pull a trigger that fast.

The end of the story is this: the gun that made the louder noise was found in a pond 25 years later. That gun proved to be the one that killed Robert Kennedy.

If no one wants to hear the whole story, I’ll leave it at that.

Rex Ray said...

Oh, I’ll add LBJ had NOTHING to do with the man that killed Robert Kennedy.

Rex Ray said...

Looks like I’m not leaving it at that.

Kennedy’s security team acted similar to how Hillary furnished body guards at Benghazi. She hired an agency to hire body guards for Ambassador Chris Stevens. The agency hired men who replied to their newspaper ad without a background check.

List of assassinations - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assassinations
This is a list of assassinations, sorted by location. For the purposes of this article, an ..... September 12, 2012, J. Christopher Stevens, United States Ambassador .... Shot by one of his bodyguards,”


DID YOU READ, "SHOT BY ONE OF HIS BODYGUARDS"?

Kennedy’s Campaign Team became worried there wasn’t enough bodyguards and hired Thane Eugene Cesar from Ace Guard Service.

Cesar was a 26-year-old plumber who worked part time as a guard. He was a strong supporter of George Wallace running for President. Cesar was outspoken in his hatred of the Kennedys.

Unlike Hillary, they didn’t say, “At this point, what difference does it make? They’re all dead.”

Christiane said...

Hello 'Connie'

you wrote: "I believe God sets rulers in place, full stop."

on what basis do you believe this?

I think there are references to the power of God active in the affairs of men, but if a 'leader' is raised up, so can God bring a 'leader' down . . .

as for obeying a 'ruler'? not in America, as we don't have kings here and we come from a colony of England, where even the 'kings' were beholden to the will of the people to a certain degree ( think: 'Magna Carta') Our American government also reflects our English colonial heritage and we have already dumped one 'king' who tried to oppress people. :)

I am wondering if you come from a culture or a land where there were absolute rulers because here in THIS country, we don't. Thank God we don't. But that fact makes US more responsible for what our country does in this world, and that responsibility is double
IF we are 'Christian', I think, because of Him)

I am law-abiding IF a law is moral and is not opposed to the common good, as are most American people. But IF our country is ever engaged in doing terrible things, WE THE PEOPLE must intervene to stop the wrong-doing. If we are Christian, this is even more of an imperative because we are called to love our neighbors, not to persecute them.


" “Blessed be the name of God forever and ever, for wisdom and power belong to Him. 21He changes the times and seasons; He removes kings and establishes them. He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to the discerning. 22 He reveals the deep and hidden things; He knows what lies in darkness, and light dwells with Him " (from Book of Daniel, chapter 2)

"We think of Him as safe beneath the steeple,
Or cosy in a crib beside the font,
But He is with a million displaced people
On the long road of weariness and want.
For even as we sing our final carol
His family is up and on that road,
Fleeing the wrath of someone else’s quarrel,
Glancing behind and shouldering their load.
Whilst Herod rages still from his dark tower
Christ clings to Mary, fingers tightly curled,
The lambs are slaughtered by the men of power,
And death squads spread their curse across the world.
But every Herod dies, and comes alone
To stand before the Lamb upon the throne."

(Malcolm Guite)







Richard said...

Sallie,
“I decided that your characterization of Trump concerned me less than allowing an elitist, globalist, multiple sexual assault enabling, habitually lying under oath, morally bankrupt running a crime syndicate with a trail of suspicious dead bodies in her wake who said "what difference does it make?" activist judge appointing woman to get into office.”
So if that’s what you ACTUALLY value, either you’re a hypocrite or ignorant, because you voted for that which you claim to loathe.

Elitist... Like Trump outspending Obama’s entire 8 years of travel in 1?
Sexual Assault enabling... So, to get this straight, you prefer the man who OPENLY BRAGS ABOUT ACTUAL SEXUAL ASSAULT over the woman who enables it? Lol....
Lying under oath... Like Trump’s entire self-contradictory and internally inconsistent Twitter feed? Trump refuses to GO UNDER oath because, as his lawyers put it, he can’t help himself from committing purgery.
Morally bankrupt... Like paying off hookers? Got it
Crime syndicate... Like defrauding people millions of dollars for a fake university?

You voted for the thing you said you didn’t want to vote for.
So, are you a hypocrite?
Or, ignorant (willful or not doesn’t matter)?
Or, could it be that one little item you slipped in a long list of ignorant/hypocritical things? Globalism? This is just a re-term of “us vs the others”, because the alternative to globalism is isolationism, and we’re already seeing the horrible effects of that in our retirement account and the costs of EVERYTHING going up right now. Nativism is no better than racism. There is nothing “being born on dirt in the US” does to your value of a person over anyone else.



David, your response is nothing more than a length logical fallacy of anectdote, containing even more logical fallacies within it.



KB,
Either you can choose to love the founding fathers and the Constitution or you can choose to hate the entire idea of a nation ruled by law.
You can’t pretend to do it and then do the opposite. “Load them on busses and drive them back” deprives people of due process. The US Federal system was designed (go read the Constitution again- I dare you) applies to everyone within the border of the country- not just citizens.
The only thing citizens have, Constitutionally? The right to vote and hold office. That’s it. Not only is your position against the grain of everything our founding fathers fought and died for, it’s entirely anti-Christian at the outset.


Christine,
Thank you for reminding us all of the encryption on the Statue of Liberty. Conservatives, especially, have long forgotten what this country used to stand for:
“Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!” "

This stands in stark comparison to “load them up on busses and drive them back.”

Sallie Borrink said...

Best wishes to you, Richard.

Sallie

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Tom Parker said...

Rex Ray"

You said:"Unlike Hillary, they didn’t say, “At this point, what difference does it make? They’re all dead.”

You take one sentence out of long dissertation and make a federal case of it. How many investigations did they have of Benghazi and were they not all led by Republicans?

I for one am extremely disappointed that you are not the Rex Ray I have known in the posts for years.

IMO you have become a surrogate for the current president/