"I went to Jerusalem to become acquainted (Gk. istoria) with Cephas" - Paul's words from Galatians 1:18.

Liberty, Tyranny and the Debate Over Gun Control

Emotions are running very high in the United States on the issue of gun control in 2018.

There are friends of mine on both sides of the issue, speaking with equal passion on the subject. 

It's important to remember that every American heart breaks when our children are murdered, regardless of one's position on gun control. While every American may not agree on the solution, every single American grieves over the situation. 

My arguments against increased gun control go against the cultural climate. The principles I advocate run counter to the emotional current of many Americans who feel the pain of mass shootings. That is to be expected. Principled arguments during times of sorrow are like uninvited wedding guests; you may tolerate them for the sake of appearances, but you definitely don't like them or want them.  

Yet the best surgeons with the steadiest hands are those who operate using principles and procedures refined long before the emotional impact of meeting a dying patient.

The debate over gun control should be rooted in wisdom and principles, not emotion and passions.

On two occasions during my lifetime I've been in the middle of a crime scene that involved the deaths of more than one child. The gruesome images have never left me. I feel for the young people in the Florida high school who had to step over their dead friends. I empathize with first responders who cared for the wounded and the dying. My heart goes out to the parents who lost a child as a result of a murderer carrying a gun. I understand what you saw, and I know how you feel. 

If possible, read what follows without emotion and see if it makes sense.

Liberty Is the Principle 


Americans do not need less liberty regarding possessing and carrying guns, we need more.

The reason there are mass shootings like those we've experienced in America is due to the government encroaching on, limiting, and intervening in the personal freedom of individual Americans to openly and continually carry a firearm. 

Let me explain. 

When our country was founded, the nation's Founding Fathers believed in what is called Natural Law. Natural Law is a view that certain rights or values are inherent in - and universally known by - human reason. 

The best summary of Natural Law is contained in the following seventeen-word statement: 
"Do all you have agreed to do and do not encroach on other persons or their property."
Our Founding Fathers believed that every rational human being knows that you don't intrude or infringe on someone else's person or property.

In the early days of our country, when a criminal encroached on another person or property, the criminal was forcibly detained and jailed locally. The courts established the precedent that restitution would be made to the victim(s).

If your property had been taken, the thief would be ordered to return your property and make financial restitution to you for taking it in the first place. If your house were destroyed by an arsonist, the fire starter would be responsible for building you a new home and financially reimbursing you for your inconvenience.

If you were injured or wounded by a criminal, he would have to pay you moneyVictims of crime had their property and personal losses financially restored by the criminal. 

In the case of murder, the murderer would be swiftly brought to justice via execution. It was "a life for a life."

Over time, common law developed within the court system of the United States. As various crimes occurred in the United States and the criminals were caught and brought to court, the judges would look at legal decisions in previous cases to make a ruling on the restitution amount that would be deemed fair and equitable to the victim.

Again, throughout the first few decades of American jurisprudence, two things were true about crime and the courts:
1. The people encroached upon were the victims, not the state.
2. The criminals who encroached made restitution to the victims, not the state.

 The Reason for an Armed Citizenry in a Land of Liberty


Because our forefathers understood the principles of Natural Law, it was necessary that American citizens always have the right to keep and bear arms. Amendment II of the Bill of Rights of the United States Constitution gives to citizens "the right to keep and bear arms." 

Most Americans don't understand the reasons our forefathers felt the right to keep and bear arms was necessary for a free society to exist.

There were two main reasons.

(1). Our nation's forefathers knew there would be occasions when criminals would not make the court-ordered restitution to their victims.

When that happens in a country built on Natural Law, outlawry is invoked.

Outlawry is the ability for citizens in a civilized society to pass judgment and punish those criminals who refuse to make court-ordered restitution to their victims. 

Most of us understand the term "outlaw," but few of us understand that it is derived from the word outlawry. Outlawry means criminals who run from court-ordered restitution are handed over to society and placed "outside the protection of law."

This is what it meant to be an outlaw. One "outside the law" was Wanted: Dead or Alive.

It did not matter how the outlaw was captured. The outlaw was to be brought dead or alive back to the courts. The state paid the one who captured the outlaw a bounty for the capture.

In the old days, prisons were fairly empty. Incarcerations were limited to those awaiting trial. Once a court ordered the terms of restitution, the criminal was released to work and pay for his crimes. 

It was extremely dangerous for a criminal to run from his responsibility of making restitution for his crimes.

It would cost him his life.

Our Founding Fathers understood the need for civilized society to "keep and bear arms" because a society of free and civilized people was ultimately the highest power in the land. The citizens of the United States would need to keep and bear arms because of outlaws. 

A criminal placed "outside the law" for refusing to pay restitution was to be refused his civil rights. He is an "outlaw" or "out(side) of (the) law."

A modern version of outlawry would be a free and law-abiding teacher in a school, armed with a weapon, shooting and killing a murderer in the act of encroaching on a human life. When a person attempts to take someone else's life, as a citizen of the United States, you are to take action. You are to take that person's life.

Natural Law demands it.

The citizen doesn't wait for "law enforcement" to take action. Our Constitution, built on Natural Law, demands the citizens to take action.

Many believe a country is more civilized when free citizens don't have guns. Our Founding Fathers believed just the opposite. A free society, according to Natural Law, makes the free people of that free society the highest authority--not the state or the government.

Government is of the people, by the people, for the people.

Could law-abiding citizens in a free society make a mistake in dealing with an outlaw? Of course, but the checks and balances on a free people is the knowledge that you might be deemed an outlaw if you violate Natural Law and encroach on an innocent person. 

Natural Law is as much a science as biology, physics, and math. It is understandable regardless of one's religion because it comes from Nature and Nature's God. Natural Law understands that victims are those who experience a crime of encroachment and the criminal is the encroacher.


The United States Government Has Assumed the Role of Victim 


In today's "advanced" society, the criminal pays his or her debt "to the state" (e.g. "prison time"). The criminal who encroaches is no longer forced to pay restitution to the victim. 

Unfortunately, in modern, progressive America, the United States government has replaced the people of the United States. When a state usurps the governance of a free people, the state will eventually devolve into fascism. 

A fascist state does not arise overnight. Just like Germany in the early 20th century, fascism progresses slowly as more and more power is handed to the state and more and more freedoms are taken from the people. 


(2). Our nation's forefathers understood that there could be an occasion when the government violates Natural Law (by encroaching), and it would be the duty of the free citizens of that state to rebel.

Very few Americans know that the reasoning of those we call Patriots, the men, and women who fought their government during the American Revolution, was built upon Natural Law. 

People like Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, John Adams, and others believed that England was encroaching on the people and property of the colonists. 

America's Patriots believed people should always be able to keep and bear arms because there always needs to be the ability for a free people in a free society to revolt against a government that violates Natural Law. England violated the principles of Natural Law, and in obedience to Nature and Nature's God, the American colonists revolted against England.

Thomas Jefferson, when writing the draft of the Constitution of Virginia, wrote:
 "No free man shall be debarred the use of arms."
 Alexander Hamilton wrote:
"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." (The Federalist Papers, pages 184-188). 
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember it or overthrow it."
These men understood that any government which removes the right to keep and bear arms from her free citizens takes a gigantic step toward statist fascism.

So, though we grieve over the mass murder at Sandy Hook, and though we deplore acts of violence by criminals throughout our land, we should resist with all our might any intrusion by the government to take weapons from us.

Natural Law demands free citizens have the right to be armed.

As a Christian, I may choose not to bear arms, choosing instead to turn the other cheek and to live like Jesus Christ lived. But as an American citizen, I feel I must resist any effort by the state to take weapons from her citizens. 

It's not a biblical principle on which I stand regarding gun control. It's not a Christian principle I am promoting. 

It's a matter of liberty vs. tyranny.

It's a matter of Natural Law.

Natural Law demands that I advocate against the government removing the liberty of our citizenry being armed, lest this great land of liberty become infected with dictatorial tyranny.

49 comments:

Christiane said...

I am a believer in the collective voice of the CHILDREN who are now the strongest advocates of common sense against the greed and corruption of the NRA which I now see as a gun-lobby for sales and as a purveyor of death.

I am ashamed of ANY politician who has ever bowed down before the gun lobby and taken money from the NRA to keep the status quo..

I stand with the CHILDREN who survived and now speak on behalf of their dead friends . . . they want common-sense gun laws in our land.

This is the ONLY country that has this hell going on and any politician who has taken blood money from the NRA is implicated in the massacres of innocents . . .

This time, the CHILDREN will do what no others have the courage to do:
stare down the NRA and it's greed and call 'B.S.' to all the old reasons why 'we can't do anything to stop this'.

Listen to the CHILDREN, some too young to vote, but soon, soon, they will be old enough. They know because they have been through the fire.
I ask God's blessing on them to shake the conscience of the nation. Let all be done that is right for the containment of certain weapons from the hands of those who should NEVER have a gun because they are not ABLE to control themselves and their sicknesses disqualify them from 'the right' to own a weapon of mass destruction such as have been used in the slaughter of our American children.

Enough. I am for the children. I hope those who stand with the greed of the gun lobby will have their eyes opened and that God will open their ears and their hearts to the message of the CHILDREN. These young survivors are rising to speak now. Hear them. They know something important. And they, as survivors, have a mission now.

The NRA? no longer an honorable organization in my view . . . long since got lost amidst greed and politics.

Dave Panzera said...

Part 1.

I often ask people who espouse great restrictions on guns to defend their position and often it comes down to saying that the average citizen has "no need" of such a weapon. The Crown thought much the same thing of the colonists. Those were mere musket requiring a long time to load and great skill and discipline to effectively fire. If we were to settle on the 2nd Amendment meaning only muskets it would be a very different situation today as that would have been our rights limit. Well, it wasn't. The word purposefully chosen was arms. A vastly different and superior right.

As they defend their position I pose a non-gun question to the principle of a right. Did Rosa Parks NEED to sit in the front of the bus? The answer is actually yes...regardless of all issues a right is a right. It is an on-off switch not relegated to elimination by government. Yes, we can regulate but we can't eliminate.

We must have a conversation on the real reasons behind mass death events. It does not begin with the instrument of choice because if we are to react to the reactionaries we must ban hammers. Why? Well, they are responsible for almost 100 more murders than all rifles like the AR-15. Every time I bring this up it seems that the people advocating for a ban do not care about people getting murdered one at a time but only when it happens in a larger number. The emotional reactions that take us to horror in an airplane crash are nothing to us when a car accident happens at the hands of a drunk driver and yet people die.

Then there is the argument that prevalence and numbers of guns and their easy availability is causal. It way well be correlated but not causal...at all. In the 1980's I would take a 22 to school. Yes folks, a gun to a school. Millions like me did so for decades. At that time there were some 200+million guns in the USA with FAR easier access in every state including hand guns and in some places fully automatic weapons. It stands to reason that if correlation WAS causation then we would have been dealing wit this for some time and yet its really only recent history.

This is a morality and mental health issue. Florida proves that even all the laws in place will sometimes fail us as Law Enforcement from local police to FBI missed this one. They did. As painful as it is we fell down. Does it mean no new laws? No, there is always room for things to improve especially when it comes to process and such. It DOES NOT mean you get to affect only the law abiding, thus, we are back to the principle of a right.

If one takes the time to read about the "Right of Revolution" in the Federalist Papers, the rights of self defense as promulgated by Sir William Blackstone (A brilliant man on British Common Law whose influence on our jurisprudence is wide ranging) and the many writings of the founders and those after them you will see a sustaining effort to the right of arms of all kinds by the lawful citizen for the express purpose of a defense against tyranny. Because, many of my left-leaning friends seem to think only the state should have the corner on arms...well, we have a lot of human history and millions upon millions of state-level murders that show it is unwise to take arms from the citizen.

Dave Panzera said...

Part 2

Where does the Christian fit in all this? Ask our founders and the many men of the revolution. Many of them deeply religious believers who walked their talk. I do NOT require you to have an arm of any kind, but my right to them are absolute. Deaths by a law breaker do not ever trump our rights. This is why I get very upset with those who would dance on the graves of the children murdered as if you can't argue your right anymore because if you did, well, then you hate the children and their blood is on your hands. That, my friends is a totally bully tactic meant to shut down not only conversation but even your offerings for a workable solution. In politics today the dance will happen and you will be ordered to shut up and agree to only the anti-gun-right prescription...or else you get the false labels.

Wade Burleson said...

Christiane and David,

A perfect juxtaposition in the first two comments of the divide between Americans. Christiane, I know David, and he is a wonderful follower of Jesus, a man of principle, and one who would never dance on the grave of a dead child. David, I could say the same thing about Christiane. My desire is that both sides see this as a matter of principle, and argue on principle, not emotion.

Christiane said...

Hopefully, this time the gun-lobby will NOT say 'ignore the CHILDREN' . . .

just try and shut them up after they have seen their friends murdered by a deranged person with legal access to the gun he murdered with

It's all gone too far.

The old 'excuses' don't work... the blood of the dead children will cry up from the ground if the far right tries to silence those who now speak for the dead.

The NRA is an immoral institution. It has lost any credibility in our land . . . somewhere between Sandy Hook and this week's blood-letting, the NRA is being damned by honest American people who KNOW that it has fallen into being a 'gun sales' lobby.

I am so relieved to speak here, although too strident, but that may not any longer be something I am willing to be apologetic for. . . . why did we not speak up sooner against what seemed to be too powerful???? if we had, we adults might not have left the work of preventing future massacres to the CHILDREN who now rise to do that work.

I am horrified by any person who has been elected to serve who is taking blood money from the NRA. A line has been crossed. There is no going back.

Lon Dawes said...

Yeah , WE always think of NEW ways to make our world better. That new way of borrowing to get what the next generation needs ?? How will they handle trillion dollar debt... how well will they appreciate the confusion of gender issues ? on and on. Only if we stuck to The Word , ok my rants done.

Bob Cleveland said...

It seems logical to me that, when something comes off the rails, the first thing you do is to go back to where it came off, and fix that.

The real loss in our society is respect for others. Respect for their property, respect for their lives, respect for authority. And, according to Bill Bennett, who was Pres. Reagan's Secretary of Education, that started when they banned prayer in schools. When children stopped acknowledging authority first thing every morning.

Then there's the loss of the nuclear family. There's the new-found attitude that it's the state's responsibility to raise our children. Or maybe the village's.....

From what I've read, those things, that have happened in the USA within my memory, are major players in the nation we've become. Which is not the one I grew up in, when I walked 6 blocks to grade school as a first-grader.

Rex Ray said...

Christiane,

Old friend, lets imagine a situation you won’t like. In church, you’re in the nursery when a crazy person that believes all babies go to heaven enters and starts shooting babies. Another enters with a pistol but is shot. Their gun falls at your feet. ‘Crazy’ starts shooting more babies. What would you do?

Rex Ray said...

I just asked Judy,

‘If I was gone, the house was locked, and this guy with a gun starts breaking through a window; what would you do?

“I’d call the police.”

“It would take 15 minutes or more for them to get here!”

“I don’t know.”

“Get the shotgun out of the closet, and shoot him!”

Anonymous said...

I agree the principle of the right to bare arms shouldn’t be what changes. What needs to be evaluated is the advancement of weaponry from the 1700’s to 2018. Something our founding fathers could not forsee. A simple single shot muzzle loader long rifle to a now sophisticated home modified assault rifle is a completely big difference. To say there should be no laws to govern sophisticated weaponry today that has evolved over 300 years is ridiculous. Some may not like this but, but a more recent technology that has spun out of control that has evolved over the past just 40 years is the creation of the World Wide Web. A perfect example of how the creators obviously did not forsee the future implications of the black market, cyber space, hacking, pornography addiction, social media addiction, etc. So should there have been an intervention of laws that paralleled the advancement of weaponry? Should have been an advancement of laws that paralled the advancement of the internet? I believe with liberty and freedom comes consequences, that are never forseen.

Gina Clark said...

How do we reconcile what we know - and how the country has changed since the founding fathers used Natural Law as their guide on this subject.

I fully agree with them. With a far smaller population, communities where people depended on each other and when mentally unstable people were generally locked away; they had the advantage of their friends and neighbors supporting them. HELPING them find those deemed outside the law.

I also fully agree that school teachers and staff members willing to carry arms and be trained in safety and use should be allowed to do so. In their position I would opt to kill a shooter and send my students home and for me to go home. Even considering the personal consequences.

My personal feeling is that Reagan's dismantling of mental health care, ease of access to weapons designed to kill other humans as rapidly and efficiently as possible, Trump easing restrictions that allow mentally unstable people easier access to weapons along with having schools where 3,000 students are protected by a single armed individual - with some smaller schools having no one armed; our society and culture have set up a ripe and tempting fruit for - especially young people - to violently express their rage or instability or simple evil.

Because we know that the brain isn't fully developed until age 25, I cannot see an infringement on a person's right to own a weapon developed for the use of killing humans until then. There numerous other options for personal protection available that would, in hope, decrease the number of deaths in these events. That is just what I see as sensible purveyorship of weaponry. It's not an inability to arm yourself, or restrict weaponry - it's using knowledge gained since the 1600-1700s combined with natural law to adapt to a country I can't imagine the founding fathers imagining.

I think of this issue deeply with event I hear and read about and have since the post office shooting in Edmond where my uncle was present. I also was a neighbor to the woman shot and killed on Mother's day here in Enid during the late 1980s. Her husband did it, then turned the weapon on himself. He was someone who not so long ago would have been permAnently institutionalized.

Christiane said...

Hey REX RAY,
If I were the protector of twelve babies in nursery, you had better believe I would fight to disarm the 'shooter'. No one would get past me to hurt those babies. No one.

I taught in schools for years and we did 'lock down' training, sure. I had a child ask me, 'Mrs. S. would you protect us from a shooter?'

I told the child that I was there 'in place of their parent' to protect them from harm and that is what I would do. I don't know any teacher who would not come between a crazy person and the children under their care. It 'ain't gonna happen. Those children are the ONLY reason that teachers are there. When the children are in the care of a teacher, it is as though that teacher is parent to those children and WILL NOT allow anyone to hurt them.

I am opposed to living in a country where I have to carry a gun because some NRA group decides to allow loopholes in common sense laws, and bribes politicians to vote along with that kind of agenda.

That is NOT freedom. We are a better country than this.
NRA gun-lobby is no longer honorable in this country.
Their greed and their fear-mongering shames them. I hold the NRA and their supporters responsible for us being the ONLY country where these massacres are happening.

Enough. Enough. May God help us.

Rex Ray said...

Wade,

I made some of this comment on your post a few days ago. I think it fits here:

“As Christians, we are to wait for Him to execute righteous judgment on the wicked.”

That seems what our government is doing when it comes to stop the slaughter of children in schools, churches, etc.

Well, God gave us a brain. When our service starts, all doors except the main door are locked. (They can be opened from the inside. Our church has several men carrying concealed guns. One of them watches the main door.

Today, my brother-in-law, added another plan. Their people are trained if they hear a shot, they are to get under pews and lay on the floor, because there’s going to be a ‘shootout’ that won’t last long.

Wade, does your church have a plan if someone starts killing people?

A few years ago, our 500 long lake dam was used as a backstop for target practice. School teachers got a ‘concealed gun license’ from a police instructor.

In the latest school massacre, I heard there was a coach that saved lives. Instead of being a dead hero, he could have saved more lives if he had a gun.

Wade Burleson said...

Rex,

I find it difficult how Americans struggle with the notion that the only way murderers with guns are defeated is with an armed citizenry with guns. It seems that progressives feel civilization is civil because there are no guns. Truth be known, civilization is only civil when civil people carry guns and criminals don't get away with their crimes of encroachment.

Just as you are saying.

Anonymous said...

Good article, Wade.

When I was a teen, I bought a 30-06 rifle from a friend of mine who brought it to high school, and I put it in my locker all day. Took it home on the bus. Never thought twice about it.

Very few people want to wrestle with the fact that most of the perps in these mass shootings were on "legal" psychotropic drugs.

http://kellybroganmd.com/mass-shootings-the-new-manifestation-of-an-ancient-phenomenon-and-their-link-to-psychiatric-drugs/

Ken


Christiane said...

Thanks for the encouragement, WADE.
This is such a beautiful and safe blog to vent in, where there is a chance to express what words fail . . . I wish only that our country let go of the fear-mongering and come back to common sense solutions instead of worrying about 'ratings' from what I now consider and immoral organization.

When after Sandy Hook, nothing was done, I realized that either people don't care OR don't know how to move forward in a good direction.
I chose the latter, still hopeful for some sign of reason and good sense to prevail.

This time, something is different. I can't explain it. I am feeling guilty for not being more strident about the extremism. I want to scream at someone, but not David, not you, not Rex Ray. So in the end, I blame myself for not having found some good way to take action and join with people who also seek changes that will put an end to this living hell.

The voices of the children .... Fox News won't show them, of course, but take a moment and listen to them on CNN or on MSNBC. They are not 'progressives'; they are survivors who saw their friends and teachers die.

Please listen to the voices of the children. They have a story to tell straight out of hell. I am so sad.
No disrespect to people here but this is really, really hard.

Aussie John said...

Wade,

Christiane is right on the money!

"This expression, “natural law,” or jus naturale, was largely used in the philosophical speculations of the Roman jurists of the Antonine age, and was intended to denote a system of rules and principles for the guidance of human conduct which, independently of enacted law or of the systems peculiar to any one people, might be discovered by the rational intelligence of man, and would be found to grow out of and conform to his nature, meaning by that word his whole mental, moral, and physical constitution."

Of course it will depend on "the nature" of the person/s.

It seems to me that the kind of weaponry available when your gun laws were instituted was far less able to do the awful damage that modern weaponry does and that the laws need to be changed accordingly. No household needs high powered weaponry of any kind, let alone automatic weaponry.

Dave Panzera said...

Christine, I find it hard to sit on the sidelines and not hold you accountable to some of the things you have said.

Your constant charges about the NRA are demonstrably false. And the only reason I get somewhat upset about it is because not only am I a lifetime member but I have known about this organization nearly all of my adult life. I follow it closely, watch what they support and what they stand against and demand of them the exact same kind of accountability I demand of myself. You are applying the blood of these children to their hands. You are making the suggestion that it is they who are at fault here they both abhorrent and absurd charge.

Christine, do you even know why the NRA was founded? Have you ever looked up their history as to just why they formed in the first place? Do you know anything about their safety programs and about the ILA, The Institute for legislative action, which seeks to encourage sensible reforms and safety laws all over the country? Do you know that they are the largest and most successful safety advocates for guns in the United States? Do you know that every state requires you to get an NRA approved safety course for handguns to get a carry concealed permit?

Christine the NRA spends less than 4 million dollars a year lobbying. I defy you to show me how that much money influences and then take a look at the chart at the link I provide and get an education on who is actually influencing Washington more than the NRA ever did.


https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-National-Rifle-Association-is-the-most-powerful-lobby-in-the-US


One last point to make regarding the recent lie being told by the media regarding the rule that was rescinded by the GOP and the Trump Administration. Conveniently left out of the reporting on that is that the ACLU is 100% in support of rescinding that particular rule. The only thing that that rule achieved was taking gun rights from people who couldn't keep up their checkbook anymore. I'm not kidding and I'm not making that up. The rule was used by certain people in the medical community to suggest that someone should not be able to have a gun because they had trouble keeping their bills straight. It was beyond ridiculous to make a decision that is that arbitrary and capricious so as to strip someone of their rights. I know a lot of doctors who can't keep their financial affairs straight, we don't stop them from practicing medicine. There are yet other people that can't remember to pay their bills if they live their lives just fine it is precisely why the ACLU was 100% against the rule. But then again you did not know that and if you did know that did you?

Christiane said...

Hello David,
please hold me accountable for saying that I believe with all my heart that the NRA is corrupted, greedy, and immoral in so far as it departed from its original purposes which were honorable and became a lobby for gun sales and used money to corrupt politicians and target them if they did not 'perform' according to NRA expectations.

I don't mind being held accountable. I do see many people now beginning to despise what the NRA has done, and I do believe that the NRA has been corrupted beyond any hope of correction. The NRA has the blood of children on its hands.

If I am guilty, it is only because I ought to have spoken out sooner against the evil. I don't blame anyone for my own lack of response that ought to be positive and forward looking in a good direction. So blame away.

For me, the time of the extremists in our land is nearly over. I want my country back. No more extremism. It doesn't work for us here. Not here.

I am hopeful that the Church will separate itself from the politics of extremism. Extremism has harmed the Church's witness.

Dave Panzera said...

It's one thing to hold the NRA accountable If they had done something wrong, it's another thing to repeat entirely made up narratives handed to you by those who don't like guns out of emotional response.

I have absolutely no problem with the fact that people do not like guns. I have no problem with the fact that some people do not want to see them don't want them around and believe them to be dangerous. I have to ask them sometimes is your car dangerous? Of course the reply no and I will ask why? And it's real simple because they know it they educated themselves about it and they can handle it. The same can be said about guns but that does not assuage the feelings some people will have.

You say the NRA is corrupt and that it corrupts politicians I'm going to hold you accountable and demand of you to show proof of that not just your feelings about the what happened in any given incident. You say that you despise with the NRA has done and you cannot even faithfully articulate what they do...how is this a proper or honorable response? Did you know the NRA led the effort to ban bump stocks after Las Vegas? Do you know they have been urging schools to allow armed presence on campus precisely because of these issues like Sandy Hook and now Florida? I am 100% confident you don't know but for some reason find solace in repeating a false narrative.

Its a morality and mental health issue Christine, we started heading this way when we allowed our national adherence to Judeau-Christian ethics to be removed from every aspect of our lives in the nation. From movies to education from "lifestyle choices" to the now defunct definition of marriage and worst of all our abhorrant culture of death related to abortion. If you think this just happened because guns were present and that the NRA is somehow complicit in that deranged individual successfully getting one you're believing the lie over the reality in front of your nose.

Let's review...
39 visits by law ENFORCEMENT
FBI informed TWICE
YouTube videos showing his desires
School children in numbers telling others of him
This man fed on violence and had no moral compass and a whole host of other issues.

But let's blame the NRA

Bill said...

Dave,

Very well said, all of it. You expressed my thoughts so well. Now I don't have to go to the trouble, thanks.

Christiane,

You said " I want to scream at someone". Please, go ahead, scream at me. According to you I have the blood of children at my feet. I am an ardent 2nd Amendment supporter, NRA member, and will be making another donation to the NRA in response to the current insanity. I am one of the extremist you are so passionately opposed to. So scream, curse, whatever, all you want. I promise I won't take offense, but will respond respectfully, and hopefully in an informative manner. In addition to being a Christian, husband, & father, I am a first responder trained and employed to shed my blood or life, in defense of the innocent. I say this only as a long-shot hope that you might give pause, and consider that your viewpoint of the NRA and it's members has been wrongly influenced by politicized falsehoods. I hope you will direct some of your passion towards reasoned and logical truth-seeking. Finally, "common sense gun laws", the euphemism for ineffective but tyrannical infringements, should be dropped and replaced with "common sense measures" such as SECURE the schools, as opposed to violating the rights of 320 million law abiding citizens.

Sincerely,
Bill

Anonymous said...

Christiane, obviously you care about the deaths of so many children, as do I, but please think for a moment about those children hiding behind doors or underneath desks, or running for their lives... don't you think they might have wanted very much, in those moments, a "good" person with a gun to stand up against that man and protect them? The only thing that will stop a bad person with a gun...is a good man or woman with a gun, and if I were in the situation those children were, I would rather it be ME with a gun than waiting endless minutes for the police to arrive... Also, those children are naturally extremely traumatized, and to use them in their vulnerability to make a point on gun control, when they don't truly understand all the issues, is exploitation.

Christiane said...

Hello Dave,

you wrote 'But let's blame the NRA'

Yes, it's time to call B.S. on that organization and its effect on our politics to maintain a 'status quo' that has set our children up for more massacres.

The NRA has promoted same-old-same-old, and God help the politician who goes against them.

Christiane said...

Dear Anonymous,

you wrote, this
"Also, those children are naturally extremely traumatized, and to use them in their vulnerability to make a point on gun control, when they don't truly understand all the issues, is exploitation."

well, just try to shut them up or belittle them or shame them . . . . they are articulate and they have been awakened by something no child should ever have to face

They have a right to be heard. Sure, be afraid of them because they are going to change things now. They have the gravitas to speak and you may not wish to hear them, but that is your choice. I hear them. And so do many many Americans.

Why did it take the voices of the children to face the extremists and speak truth to 'power'? Maybe there is some justice in this, that those who were abandoned by the far right to become martyrs for the gun lobby should now stand against the greed.

They have seen the worst. What now do they have to fear?
Your criticism? I don't think anyone can stop them from speaking out. I don't think anyone should try to stop them. They NEED to have a voice because their friends are dead now and cannot speak. That is a 'burden' they carry that is painful, yes. But it is empowering too.
It's what they CAN do to try to stop the madness that is the far-right's 'do nothing' craziness. I will listen to them with the respect they deserve.

Christiane said...

also to Dear Anonymous,

who wrote " Also, those children are naturally extremely traumatized, and to use them in their vulnerability to make a point on gun control, when they don't truly understand all the issues, is exploitation."

may I leave you with this thought:
'all the issues' don't amount to a row of pins when one of these 'children' have seen their teacher or their friend shot to death right in front of them

They KNOW what the problem is. Anything else spoken cannot add to what they have witnessed . . .

if someone cared about their 'vulnerability', maybe something would have been done to protect them from seeing the killings . . . but nothing was done, nothing

'all the issues'? They buried their friends. What more is there for them to understand????

Victorious said...

They buried their friends. What more is there for them to understand????

I'm not trying to minimize the trauma these children/teens experienced, but what they must learn eventually is that "where there's a will...there's a way." Of course there can be more stringent laws enacted, but they will most likely not stop the goal of a deranged individual of murdering a specific group of people. Prohibition of alcohol led to illegal stills; walls between countries leads to underground tunnels to transport drugs; exorbitant taxation on cigarettes in some states has led to a black market; etc.

My nephew is the Captain on the Lee County Sheriff's org and is in charge of resources for school safety. It's his responsibility to ensure each school has an officer present for the safety and healthy interaction of students with law enforcement. But even with an officer on the premises, he/she would be of little help against an AR-15.

Again, I'm not minimizing the trauma experienced nor the effect these teens' voices may have. But just what measures will be totally effective in the long run remains to be seen. I have reservations about the success of reducing or eliminating the evil use of weapons by a determined individual.

Mary Ann

Dave Panzera said...

No, Christine, they have not promoted the same old same old. That is a lie, I am calling you out on it, you are promoting a lie. I will do this every time you want to get on this forum and promote a lie about an organization as opposed to going ahead and speaking the truth of the matter. It is complete absurdity and obscenity to me for you to suggest that they are the ones at fault here. Either you can be honorable about this or I will continue calling you out on it.

Anonymous said...

As parent to a mentally ill adult, all the gun laws in the world will not stop this madness. They won't. Guns are not the only weapon capable of killing many in a hurry. Are we going to ban all autos? How many innocent children can be plowed down in a split second by someone not in their right mind?

The real discussion, the one no one seems to want to have, is this:

Some attitudes, actions, and conditions signal very clearly "this person needs to be locked up." Oh sure, there are stories of "he was just quiet and nice and must have just snapped." Until the truth comes out. He was antisocial, are hurt animals, or had done violence before, or threatened it, or like the Aurora shooter told his shrink he had homicidal thoughts and desires. But we don't like to say anymore some things are just "off", not eccentric or having this syndrome or that one, but really and truly just insane. And if we do get to that, we don't want to infringe on the sick person's freedom. We don't want to lock them away.

All that is going to stop this madness is putting some teeth back into commitment and putting in more beds in the mental hospitals. Some people should just never be back out in society. And it needs to happen BEFORE the killing starts.

Linda

Anonymous said...

Interesting reading: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/21714

Ken

Christiane said...

Hello David,
by 'same-old, same-old', I mean if you list all of the massacres and you see how there was such political resistance to any kind of responsible change,

it didn't happen . . . nothing happened

This is the ONLY country where this nightmare is playing out.

I do hold the NRA responsible for every manipulative move they made on politicians to keep the status-quo going.

But now the voices of those clear-minded young people in Florida are rising. And they want justice and accountability for the lack of action that has encouraged these massacres to continue .....

do you have ANY idea how the NRA is now seen as 'the problem' ??? the NRA is a powerful organization, but the politicians who have played the NRA game are also complicit in the lack of action.

Gun Lobby. Big money. Political power. Control.
Anything but responsible government at the national level.

Some states are forming coalitions to make changes. Because the national government has no backbone to stand up to the NRA and the 'base'.

Dead children.
Did you know those bullets SHATTER organs beyond repair.

NRA to me is now an agent of death. I have no respect for it or its agenda.
I see it as an enemy against any reasonable needed changes. I cannot say otherwise. To me, it is an evil entity which has ignored the deaths of so many innocents.

Dave Panzera said...

You are so over emotional in this I wonder if talking to you anymore on it will do any good. The ONLY reason I am engaging with you hear is for the benefit of other readers as I do not in any way expect you to change your mind. The rhetoric you espouse belies your indoctrination combined with emotion.

Here you go posting "Dead children. Did you know bullets SHATTER organs beyond repair." This kind of emotional bully tactic is spoken only so as to have me shut up. It is as if I argue any point with you this will be thrown in my face by you and others so you do not have to consider what I have said. This is precisely what I meant when I said "The left dances on children's graves" You are doing that here.

All life is precious to me. You stand on no higher ground than myself or any in the NRA when it comes to the protection of and the reverence for human life. I say all this to warn you that I am not easily bullied and will not tolerate such things being said to me or about others I know. Christine I have concern for the 473 human beings who died because of a hammer attack on them in the past year. Do you realize that's 99 MORE people who died from a hammer than from a rifle? Using your logic, your approach to all of this when can I expect you to start raging against Lowes and Home Depot and those at ACE Hardware as well as their lobbying groups in Washington? When will the madness end Christine? Over 100 more people. Do you not care about them or is it that you only care when it is a child? You see, two can play at this false accusation game. I do not. I fully expect and believe you care wholeheartedly about those 473 people I told you about.

Most importantly, you did not look at the list I provided you as to just what money is actually going to Washington DC and what they lobby for. I would hope you pour more of your energies and efforts into the hundreds of millions spent to keep murderous abortion mills open by planned parenthood. 1100 Children a day, Christine. Once again, I am confident you actually do care but your efforts and energies are against an organization that you cannot even articulate what they do. Have you gone to the ILA website to see the legislative efforts the NRA actually does and does not get any credit for?

You are falling for the hype and hysteria. Its so bad that even CNN gets caught staging the townhalls and scripting the questions. One kid who was a survivor wouldn't put up with it and CNN has been exposed.

You have every right to your opinions. You do not have the right to an expectation that you will not be called out when you get something wrong. The NRA has had more success at safety with guns int he USA than anyone else. They stand against all the evil mind-polluting and violent video games like "Grand Theft Auto" which PROMOTES murder, rape and many other horrible things. Do you really think the NRA has more to do with a deadly gun culture than they do? Its ridiculous on its face to even suggest it.

Anonymous said...

This would be a good discussion to watch if it were allowed to happen:

https://sheriffrichardmack.com/articles/sheriff-richard-mack-calls-for-a-televised-round-table-discussion-with-the-outspoken-survivors-of-the-parkland-massacre-before-the-march-for-our-lives

Ken

Anonymous said...

Ooops...was allowed to happen.

Christiane said...

Hello David,
once, the NRA was an honorable organization, yes, but no more in MY opinion, and in the opinion of many others also

what happened?

it took up the cause of promoting gun sales?
it sought to control the voting of elected representatives by 'contributions' and/or by 'rating' them for 'the base' so that they would be intimidated into playing ball ????

after the first massacres, something ought to have been done . . . the NRA was a force that demanded 'status quo' and I can't forget or forgive that, no

over-emotional ?
Dear God, I hope so.

the only response to these massacres is the great sadness of knowing that I might have raised my voice sooner in some way that might have made a difference,
and I blame myself for the sin of NOT doing what was right to confront the 'crazy' effectively . . . my sin was one of not responding

Nothing personal, David, but I don't mind being 'called out' by any NRA advocate ..... these days, it is a badge of honor that I spoke up against the extremism, the greed , the fear mongering, and the lack of responsible reaction to a national nightmare which no doubt has AIDED the continuation of these massacres

the bullets? go ahead and read what you can find about what they do to a child's body . . . one little one at Sandy Hook was shot eleven times

enough slaughter

I look forward to a return to reason and responsibility in our land. Right now, the NRA seems the focus for the same-old same-old and that is no longer acceptable, because too much has happened

My condition? I am out of hospital this week and on oxygen. My heart is broken for the dead children and their families. Over-emotional? I certain hope so.
'bout time I saw my own failure to speak up sooner as a part of the problem ...... I bear you no ill will, David

I call myself to account now. God help us all.

Dave Panzera said...

Only the NRA doesn't have any extremism. Any NRA doesn't support the things that you're claiming it does. And the NRA doesn't advocate for the harm of anyone. And the NRA doesn't corrupt politicians the way that you claim they do.

You haven't given a single example of how they have done any of this but you lay all of the blame at their feet, that's appalling.
It's an unfortunate fact that 374 people died last year from a rifle bullet. It's a horrible fact. It's just as horrible a fact that 473 people died from a hammer blow to their head. I have mentioned this several times in the course of our conversation but your only concern is that of what you claim the NRA is doing but you're not seeming to care one bit for the even greater number of people murdered by hammers. No age restrictions on hammers, no licensing of hammers, no putting them behind the counter? I only again point this out because it seems to be just a foolhardy conversation that times with people who focus on one thing and act like they care a lot about it but then are dismissive of another fact and avoid even commenting on it. You see you know it undermines your position and it undermines your current arguments. But then again your current arguments do not lay out any facts or any details there were emotional reactions and I think you've been indoctrinated to believe them. This is not an informed electorate when people act that way this is a manipulated electorate when they do.

You've not done any research on this Christine. If you had I'm sure you would have presented it. It's one thing to disagree with the NRA on their positions but it's another thing to accuse them of the things that you accuse them of. I'm a lifetime member of the NRA so you're including me in that group. Your accusations of blood on my hands your accusations of extremism are just being used to describe me. It would be one thing if I emotionally reacted to that and just lashed out and anger but I have several times now called on you to provide examples or evidence of the charges you make.

Christiane said...

Hello David,
'blood on our hands' would apply to our whole nation at this point . . . to them what said 'don't do anything, it will all die down' all the way to them what said 'we can't do anything because of the power of the gun lobby'

I don't think any of us in this country are without blame for what befell innocent children, no

our 'rights' end where the lives of the children begin and we cannot 'buy' our 'rights' with the blood of those children . . . they had a right to live

it's the 'do nothing' 'it will all die down' that killed them and we have a collective guilt for their deaths

our children who died were let down, and we let it happen again, and again, and again . . . . we let it happen without intervention of common sense into a divided world of conspiracy theories, 'alternate' facts, fear-mongering, and political intrigue, and yes, big money from the gun lobby

collective guilt? I accept mine. My conscience is deeply troubled.

You? blood on YOUR hands? you must examine your own heart and I don't judge you personally other than to say this:
WHY? how can an organization like the NRA possibly try to pass as uninvolved in these deaths, when all it has done was to try to keep everything 'the same'?????

Dave Panzera said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
David Panzera said...

It's easy Christine, it's because the NRA was not involved with the deaths of any shootings. Time and again we see people like you come out and promote this anti-nra agenda and yet the people involved we're not only not associated with the NRA, had nothing to do with the NRA, they pretty much were all liberal Democrats. This is a known fact. An inexplicably the left comes out to find their bad guy in the whole situation that fits their narrative. This is why I say you are indoctrinated in this narrative and you've not at all thought it through or looked for information that supports or substantiates your position.

Your reactions to all of this dust far remind me of why we do not hire a lamb to guard the Lambs. We get well trained Sheepdogs to guard the Lambs because the sheep dog understands the wolf. Not only do you demonstrate to me that you do not understand the wolf in this matter, but you also do not understand the fallacies of your current arguments related to the NRA and others who support the Second Amendment.

Lambs do not like the Sheepdog. The sheep dog will actually bite and do those things necessary to keep the lamb both alive and safe they do not like this. But somehow they consider themselves the expert when it comes to the ultra violent extremist wolf who not only doesn't obey any of the rules but does not care about your feelings. Now, I do not begrudge you your desire to be a lamb. Your desire to be a Peaceable loving and gentle soul. You can be all of that and still understand the necessity of the Sheepdog and the methods to protect you from the wolves. The NRA not only completely understands that but has been advocating for everybodies safety ever since they were conceived to give blacks who were recently freed from slavery the ability to defend themselves because that is the roots of that organization.

Anonymous said...

So, Christiane, for all your heated rhetoric, what have YOU done to stop abortions? Kills more kids than guns do, and talk about shattered organs: how about crunchy vs non crunchy procedures? What have you done to prevent homicidal mentally ill people from being free to run the streets? What have you done to prevent hammer sales? To prevent the mentally ill or the terrorist access to autos? Are you active against drunk driving? So you are actually doing something to stop mothers from drinking while pregnant, shattering brains?

Give us some truth, not some propaganda.

Linda

Christiane said...

the NRA's reputation is dying faster than they can bury the most recent victims

I will not mourn the monstrosity it has become.

Once it existed for the right reasons, but it was corrupted.

Now, with the children's voices heard in our country, the power of the NRA to do more harm will begin to be destroyed . . .

the voices of the surviving children call for the NRA's destruction and people are listening .... $ sponsors are withdrawing from the NRA in droves

the time of the NRA will soon be over and it cannot happen quickly enough

Bill said...

For those interested in an encyclopedia's worth of information about mass/school shootings, violence in general, statistics, comparisons of the US and other countries, and ways to prepare or respond, and much more, I highly recommend Greg Ellifritz's website:http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/. He is not political, but a subject matter expert from an instructional point of view.

Bill

Bill said...

Christaine,

You have expressed broad accusations, conclusions, and condemnations, with little or no facts to support. When and how did the NRA evolve from an honorable organization to a corrupted one? What are you advocating for? I have read all that you have written, and see nothing but emotion and regurgitated talking points. Yes, the murder of children is horrific. That is not news to any sane person. What principle are you advocating, that children should not be murdered? Oh, the NRA is responsible? Actually, the shooter is responsible, nobody else. It seems this incident has triggered a strong emotional response in you, understandably. But emotions need to be married to factual information for anything productive to happen. Just because your emotional disgust or outrage is justified and feels right, does not mean your understanding of the facts or your conclusions are correct.

Sincerely,
Bill

Dave Panzera said...

Christine, this last post of yours is Lunatic Fringe. It's hardly even worthy of consideration. Not only will the NRA be stronger out of this but more people will actually join it. It is happened every time the false narrative gets used against it. Yes it appears that Enterprise Holdings is no longer going to give them the discount through their organization because they have been pressured by activists funded by George Soros. That is who you are teaming up with. I want you to think about that for a few minutes and see if that is the alliance you really want to be making.

Dave Panzera said...

For you Christine.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/27439/6-facts-show-gun-control-not-answer-amanda-prestigiacomo?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_content=062316-news&utm_campaign=benshapiro

Christiane said...

My very wise Coast Guard son came over last evening and we talked about all of this. He says people need to STOP the refusal to talk to one another, and begin to sit down and offer workable solutions to what is happening . . . he says that good solutions can come from people of good will on all 'sides' . . . . that we need to be open to the good ideas that are out there and we need to drop the 'rhetoric'.

Sometimes my son opens my eyes with his wisdom. I am so weak physically from recovery from bilateral pneumonia, and so ANGRY that the blood-letting once again has happened and, of course, the victims include the innocent children. My son says I need to begin to think about this as where and how do we go 'forward' now . . . and he says that there will be voices on all sides that offer common sense solutions to the known problems.

Maybe it's the young people who will be able to call B.S. on the nonsense of doing nothing but who also will be open to listening and working with any people of good will who are out there who are willing to make the necessary changes and sacrifices to stop the killing.

I hope the younger generations are going to be strong, principled, positive, and committed to doing what is right . . . those young survivors KNOW 'the issues' from their experience and they know they don't want that hell for anyone else so I am counting on them to be a voice to be reckoned with.

And I am counting on people like my son who 'listens', who is unafraid, who is willing to sit down and 'reason with' those of good will. He believes the answer(s) can be found by 'moving forward in a good direction'.

I am ill and tired and my heart hurts from grief. But the young people are coming up and they give me hope that their generation can take their stand for what if right and good and positive . . . no heads buried in the sand, no 'do nothing' it will all die down, no fearmongering, no avoidance of reality, no running away from what is obviously a nightmare of the killing of innocent people by weaponry designed not for any purpose other than killing .. . . . here's hope for the young people to rise and be strong and do what we have failed to do in our divisions and hopelessness . . . may God be with them as they work for a better time when common sense solutions are again honored in our land.

Anonymous said...


Excellent Post! Whomever reads it, take it to mind and heart.
LMM

Christiane said...

if 'tyranny' is feared, there is one universal sign that it may be on its way in a nation, this:

an attack on the free press

Watch closely for that sign, especially when those in the press who criticize 'power' are targeted and threatened. . . .

It's a tyrannical leader that cannot handle criticism and strikes at those who 'dare' to confront the powerful.

Anonymous said...

Way too many similarities with Benghazi, Sandy Hook and Las Vegas shootings. Never believe what the authorities tell us without proof - especially since their narratives so frequently change.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31_sZQu0o9Q

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