"I went to Jerusalem to become acquainted (Gk. istoria) with Cephas" - Paul's words from Galatians 1:18.

Pondering More than a Moment on the Atonement

The Atonement in the Christian faith is defined as the reconciliation of a God with sinful people through the death of Jesus Christ. In biblical language, the Atonement means Christ died for our sins (I Corinthians 15:3). 

One's view of the Atonement determines one's conceptions of God. Both attraction to and repulsion of Christianity centers around the cross on which Jesus died.

One either appreciates a loving God as the source of Christ's death or one abhors the idea that a loving God had anything to do with Jesus' death. The point of controversy in modern Christianity centers on how one views the cross of Jesus Christ. 

It is for this reason we all need to ponder the atonement for more than a moment. The atonement is Christianity in brief. The Apostle Paul stated, "I resolve to know nothing among you but Jesus Christ and Him crucified" (I Corinthians 2:2).  If the crucifixion of Jesus is that important to Paul, then we better figure out why.

In our day, antagonism toward the Atonement often originates from the minds of those who wish to protect their image of a loving God from the charge He put His Son to death. "How," we are asked, "Can a loving God be a child abuser, putting his own Son to a cruel death on a Roman cross?" 

We respond that the Atonement of Christ is best understood through the Scriptures. God forgives sins, the Scriptures tell us, but this His free forgiveness comes at great cost to Himself and to the Son of His love. "Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins" (Hebrews 9:22). In fulfilling this eternal Law, Jesus Christ died for our sins that we might be forgiven, and resting in that full and complete forgiveness, live our lives now more abundantly (John 10:10).   

There are those who say, "But because God is love, He can forgive our sins without the death of His Son." That's not what God says. God established His Law, and His Law states, "the one that sins shall die" (Ezekiel 18:20). Sinners die. But God made Jesus the Messiah "who knew no sin, to become sin for us" (II Corinthians 5:21). So "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:23). In other words, Jesus fulfilled the Law by living the life sinners should have lived and dying the death sinners deserve to die (separated from the mercy of a just and righteous God).  Christ's resurrection from the dead is the "seal of approval" that God accepts the sacrifice of His Son in the stead of sinners (see Romans 1:4). 

This is the Atonement.

Problems with the Atonement form in the minds of people today because our culture expunges, extinguishes or explains away any consciousness of sin. When this happens, there is no need for Atonement. To tell people that Jesus died for sinners when nobody feels sinful makes the Atonement as fanciful as Goldilocks or the Fairy Princess. 

Of course, it is impossible for us to convince people of sin. That is the Holy Spirit's job (John 16:8). When we yell and scream at the culture around us in order to convince people of the sin within us, all we do is try to do the job that only the Holy Spirit is equipped to do. In fact, I'll go further. The more you seek to convince of sin, the more the world will ignore their sin. It is the love of God shown to sinners through you to sinners hat leads sinners to repentance.

In other words, when the love of God is magnified and bursts forth in your heart through the apprehension and the appreciation of Christ's death for your sins, then you will die to yourself in order to love sinners in the same manner Jesus has loved you (John 13:34-35). 

This is the value of the Atonement.

During the Fall of 2017 I am preparing a 12 week series on the Atonement entitled "Why the Cross?" and hope to show the great power of understanding the substitutionary, penal death of Jesus Christ for sinners. 

I've already been blessed in the preparation of the series. It will be available via podcast beginning on August 17, 2017.

157 comments:

Tom Ross said...

In Isaiah 58 God basically tells us to turn our hearts and mind over to be doing the work on God's heart, i.e. having an outwards perspective to bless other by helping them to overcome their circumstances and burdens. He also reminds us to stop pointing the finger at each other so that He can heal us. The atonement process of repentance and in believing in the work of Christ on the Cross to lift our burdens of sin from us is how we will be healed and made whole. This chapter then goes on to implore us to keep the Sabbath "Day" holy.

Ezekiel 18 tells us that if a righteous man sins and does not repent of his sin, then at the time of Judgement he will die the second death. It also tell us that a sinful man who is destined to die the second death at the time of judgement, if he truly repents of his sin(s) will live forever and will not suffer the second death.

If we acknowledge our sins and repent, then the Grace of God through the Death of Christ on the Cross will cause our sins to become hidden from God's sight and we will be judged to be righteous. This is a step of faith on our part, and by believing in Him whom He has sent, we will be saved.

Shalom

Pege' said...

Wade, " Atonement by the blood of Jesus is not an arm of Christian truth; it is the heart of it."
~Charles Spurgeon. I cannot add anything to what Spurgeon said. I hope your new series deeply roots itself into the hearts of the people who listen so that their lives and their understanding of God changes.

Rex Ray said...

Wade,

“Can a loving God be a child abuser, putting his own Son to a cruel death on a Roman cross?”

ANSWER:

For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone that believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.” (John 3:16 NLT)

“The time is coming…each one going his own way, leaving me alone. Yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.” (John 16:32 NLT)

“…Jesus called out with a loud voice, My God, my God why have you abandoned me?” (Mathew 27:45 NLT)

God’s reply was only tears as He could not comfort sin. Jesus was dying for all the sins from Adam to his second coming. “IT IS FINISHED.”

Christiane said...

I suggest widening the lens a bit. The whole 'Christ Event' is salvific.

For example, look at the Incarnation through the eyes of Gregory of Nazianzus:
"For we do not sever the Man from the Godhead, but we lay down as a dogma the Unity and Identity of Person, Who of old was not Man but God, and the Only Son before all ages, unmingled with body or anything corporeal; but Who in these last days has assumed Manhood also for our salvation; passible in His Flesh, impassible in His Godhead; circumscript in the body, uncircumscript in the Spirit; at once earthly and heavenly, tangible and intangible, comprehensible and incomprehensible; that by One and the Same Person, Who was perfect Man and also God, the entire humanity fallen through sin might be created anew."

'What is not assumed cannot be saved'

Gregory gave great prominence to Christ’s full humanity: to redeem man in the totality of his body, soul and spirit, Christ assumed all the elements of human nature, otherwise man would not have been saved.

Look to whole Christ Event in its totality. Then, I think the great mystery of the Cross becomes more clearly revealed.

RRR said...

"Problems with the Atonement form in the minds of people today because our culture expunges, extinguishes or explains away any consciousness of sin."

Your post brings up some great thoughts for reflection, i.e., the Cross brings to my mind just how serious "sin" is to God. I'm looking forward to the beginning of the 16 messages.

Victorious said...

I have two sons. Years ago, one of my sons was arrested for a violation of the law. I was notified of the amount of bail necessary to get him out and went immediately to the bank to pay for his release. I didn't hollar and scream at him on our way home; he was keenly aware of what caused his arrest and to this day has not violated that law again.

My other son, on the other hand, has engaged in a private violation of the law for which no monetary payment can release him from his private prison. This son was in bondage for a very long time until he found release in Jesus Christ. He is no longer shackled by guilt and shame even though he might fail in his struggle from time to time.

As a parent, I grieved at the separation their individual actions caused between them and me. But when I saw each of them coming just as the prodigal son did, I got ready to celebrate their return!

The father of the prodigal son did not lecture him upon his return. He didn't impose guilt and shame on him. He didn't even correct him for squandering his estate and his loose living. Instead, he felt compassion. And even when that son was groveling for forgiveness and self-deprecation, his father rejoiced that he was lost and now was found. Reconciliation between them was what brought joy and celebration!

Now the other son is a very different story. He felt he had earned the father's love by his years of faithful service and was jealous of the father's obvious joy over the one who didn't deserve the celebration in his opinion. It seems he would have preferred his father berate the prodigal son for his wayward, sinful years that deserved wrath, punishment, and quiet resignation to his son's return rather than the reward of celebration.

This is the way I see God...as one who grieves that our sin has caused a rift in our relationship and He is patiently waiting for our reconciliation. He pays the necessary bail to release us from our prison of bondage to sin and is celebrating our return to Him. He sees us coming from afar and rejoices that we were lost but are now found.

So we are not to have the attitude the older brother had...self-righteous goodness and faithful service. But rather extend love as the of the prodigal son did..."not counting his trespasses against him" but as ambassadors for Christ, pray for their reconciliation to God. We love because He first loved us. He paid the bail that set us free.

Mary Ann

Aussie John said...

Wade,
Thank you for another message of great import. For far too long Christians have been subjected to a hybridized Old Covenant+New Covenant message which mixed God's great gift of grace (Eph.2:8-9)with the performance of human centered effort.

That was the certainty of Paul when he said, "Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter (law) but of the Spirit (Rom.8:2)".

Paul well understood the amazing gift he had been gifted by God's grace alone when he wrote to the Ephesian believers. He knew that means that God loves, forgives, and saves us not because of who we are or what we do, but because of the work of Christ.

We are having a lend of ourselves if we ever think that our best efforts/behaviour can be good enough to earn salvation, but God declares us righteous for Christ’s sake. We receive that grace through faith alone. God even gives us the faith that allows us to trust Him. We are not saved by obeying a list of do’s and don’ts, but by grace through faith in Christ. Our salvation is in God’s hands. That’s the Gospel.

Anonymous said...

Hi CHRISTIANE,

I have a confidential question to ask you.

Could you send me an email at: gbfsvsurvivors@gmail.com

Thank you.

Regards,

Velour

Anonymous said...

Just one cautious caveat born of sad experience.

At one point we began hearing from the pulpit that we should not be trying to convict people of sin, as that was the job of the Holy Spirit. Well, duh, could not agree more!

That is, until we noticed the scripture readings were being edited to remove some readings that might suggest some things that are enjoying great popularity today are sins. At first it was one or two hot button issues, then broadened considerably into basically "nobody sins anymore so isn't it great God loves us." That church was a liturgical one that had used the Brief Order of Confession and forgiveness but that was changed to basically "thank you I am baptized".

We started to get concerned, and within two months were being asked to OK the church formally blessing an array of things the Bible refers to as sin.

We left and never went back, but did continue dialogue with leadership until we were told "sin is an outdated idea of the middle ages."

Hm.

But while saying "tread carefully" and "along with penal substitution please touch on the other theories and weave a beautiful tapestry" I mostly applaud you for being willing in today's world of reminding folks we even need an atonement!

Linda

Christiane said...

Hi VELOUR

I don't 'email' beyond my own family, but please come back and read how many people want you to come back to TWW, me included.

I stood up for Harley when 'H.A.' was on her case and I remember at the time thinking 'Velour' would do the same, probably even more effectively than me. Got to look out for our Harley.

Please return to us. What is that classic saying?
"Illegitimi non carborundum "
Don't let 'that group' win. Harley was targeted. Others may be also.
We need you. I need your wonderful gift of organizing the prayer needs .... so helpful for us all. Come back. Miss you. Worried.

Anonymous said...

Hi CHRISTIANE,

OK. Got it. Thanks for letting me know.

No, they blocked me from commenting at all on TWW because I brought up the issue of addiction.
This is an issue of addiction. I'm not excusing RC2. But there is an epidemic of
addiction in the church, among the clergy and the folks in the pews (including among women). They offered no hope and help to those who are suffering from addictions, spouses, children, and friends, and what can be done.

It was full of condemnation and relentless put downs of those addicted. I have received horrible follow-ups on social media from some of those people. Drama, drama and more drama.
Many people should go to Al-Anon in my opinion and learn to work on their own lives in the face of addiction.

I was going to ask you to take over the Prayer List, since I won't be coming back. I think that you are a woman of prayer and mercy and would be a good fit for that role.

Thanks for standing up for Harley. She's a friend of mine.


Anonymous said...

Hi CHRISTIANE,

This is the video of a former pastor who is in recovery from alcohol that I wanted to post at Wartburg, but I was blocked from doing so.

Matt Bays, author of Finding God in the Ruins
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZqqeEbyeNY

Christiane said...

Velour, please reconsider.

I hope you realize that Dee says she wants you to come back.

I strongly rely on you for that prayer list because I can't keep my own head straight at my age. Please come and help us.

A lot of people are posting on your behalf, wanting you to return. I can't imagine TWW without you there. Others feel the same.

At least think about it and go and read those comments .... please do. We want you back.

Anonymous said...

^Video to CHRISTIANE from VELOUR

Christiane said...

Matt Bays, author of Finding God in the Ruins
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZqqeEbyeNY

VELOUR, this seems appropriate for the TWW post. I wonder why it was not accepted? You've got some resources and have shared them in the past.

I don't understand the thinking about this film. It seems to fit the topic quite well. (?) (sigh)

Anonymous said...

Hi CHRISTIANE,

No, I won't be back. I was treated terribly, what was posted about me by her was untrue,
I asked her to correct it, she knew I was tied up. And she refused. She threatened me in an email and said that she would post my email and everyone would discuss it and that "no one would buy [my] 'excuse'." Because I'm busy? Because I don't have time this week and I am tied up with my job?

I don't need this kind of drama.

Is this her health problem and her medication? What is going on over there?

I have never gotten so many nasty social media private conversations as from the people over there. Just bizarre. But for the grace of God there go any of us, tumbling into the pit and chains of addiction.

People drink to numb: a history of traumatic child abuse, other traumas, stress, mental illness, and there can be genetic components for some people. We don't know why someone is drinking. We don't know where their bottom is and when they will get help. But help should be afforded, and separated from the other sins someone has committed.

I was excommunicated, as you know from a horrible NeoCalvinist church on some trumped up charges. But NEVER would I begrudge my ex-pastors/elders -- who have hurt so many people/spiritually abused so many people -- medical care and help for serious problems.
That would be unethical and immoral, in my opinion. I can separate out their sins from the fact that they are human beings and worthy of help. (I know, I know. A minor miracle for me, right? LOL. For this, I give thanks to God.)

Hugs,

VELOUR

Anonymous said...

Hi CHRISTIANE,

Well since I'm blocked from posting over at TWW, feel free to post the link to the Matt Bays video if you're still free to comment over there.

I think it is very relevant to the TWW subject.

Hugs,

VELOUR

Violet M said...

interesting! http://estates.uonbi.ac.ke/

Rex Ray said...

I’m so far out of the loop I’m starting a new topic: “Why did the chicken cross the road? Judy gave me 24 answers from people, but I’ll choose 7:

1. Al Gore: “I invented the chicken.”

2. Colonel Sanders: “Did I miss one?”

3. Al Sharpton: “Why are all the chickens white?”

4. Dick Cheney: “Where’s my gun?”

5. Barack Obama” “Let me be perfectly clear, if the chickens like their eggs they can keep their eggs. No chicken will be required to cross the road to surrender her eggs. Period.”

6. Hillary Clinton: “What difference at this point does it make why the chicken cross the road.”

7. Bill Clinton: “I did not cross the road with that chicken.”

Anonymous said...

Hi Rex,

That was funny.

Sorry but I was blocked from commenting on another blog and I needed to communicate with CHRISTIANE, who comments there and here. It was the only way I could find her.

Thanks for your patience.

Regards,

"Velour"

Tom Ross said...

Velour

I am sure that Wade graciously allowed you to continue to get what was bugging you out of your system, as did many other people who read Wade's blog pages. It may not have been good etiquette, but I can understand your frustration and have sympathise for you.

It seems to me that it is time to let go and to forgive those who, you may perceive, have done you wrong. Jesus said that we cannot be forgiven for our transgressions against God if we cannot forgive others for their transgressions against us. It is an often forgotten requirement of the atonement process.

If we cannot forgive others then bitterness may become a part of us that excludes us from among the judged righteous.

May healing begin for you as you chose to press into God's loving embrace.

Shalom

Anonymous said...

Hi Tom,

Thanks. Thank you this just happened a few days ago.

I have been praying for all concerned.

It was the only way I could find Christiane, who I knew posted on both blogs. She can't take over the prayer list duties, which I used to have on the other blog.

Thank you.

Christiane said...

Hi VELOUR,
Please read the comments on TWW.
Please pray for Brian and for Ishy's concern.
I have Daisy's concern here for you to read also and you are mentioned. I think I may have been correct about a person blogging under different names, but using different computers to do it, yes.
So sorry you have suffered through this trouble. You were needed there and you did so much good. Praying for your return. Come and help us again.
Here's Daisy's comment:
https://missdaisyflower.wordpress.com/2017/07/02/be-cautious-faux-niceness-victim-bullies-and-survivor-abuse-blogs/

Anonymous said...

Off-topic.

To: CHRISTIANE

Thanks for the update. I'll pray for peoples' concerns.

There are, in my opinion, lots of unhealthy people at The Wartburg Watch blog who want to take other peoples' inventories and not their own. It's not a healthy blog and I won't be back. I know about half-a-dozen people who are also not coming back to that blog for very similar reasons and they've called, emailed me, and sent me messages via Facebook. They've reached their limit. (It' very negative too, the articles. Do we ever hear anything positive?)

I am aware that the person you mention above. Sad. Oh well.

Hugs,

VELOUR

Christiane said...

Hi VELOUR,
I hear you, yes.
But I think TWW offers a place for some to tell their stories .... it was a place for prayer requests and for offering support for one another, which I think was wonderful.

That may be changing, yes. I received this rebuke from 'Jack':
"With respect, I think Okrapod said it best to the effect that folks gotta do what they gotta do. Empathy is when you feel for someone but not share the same emotions. Sympathy is when you take on those emotions.
A forum such as this is better served by empathy. The world is too big to save with one blog.
TWW does its best work telling the stories that need to be told and facilitating discussion on those stories.
I said it in an earlier comment, a comments section does not make a good support group.
I enjoy the interaction here, with limitations.
In the words of the immortal Stan Lee, “nuff said”. Time to move on."

Now, Velour, I am hopelessly sympathetic. :) So I have been a trouble-maker I guess but I thought praying for people was a good way to help out when they were troubled. I still do. I'll just have to watch my tendency to 'sympathize' when it see that it is not the done thing among certain people. I'm not sure I will be very good at this, no. Empathy/Sympathy do not seem so far from one another to me in my old age.... they merge and I can't separate them so easily as people who are disciplined like 'Jack'. I am what I am.

Anonymous said...

Off-topic.

To:CHISTIANE

Yes, there have been some good forms of support and prayers at The Wartburg Watch blog.
I am sure that will continue too, even without me there.

I simply can't agree with the "hit piece" articles at TWW and the lack of hope and help offered for people struggling with the same problems, hope and help for their spouses, and for their children. Even their friends.

I am glad that you are sympathetic and empathetic. You have many beautiful gifts and I love you for all of them.

Hugs,

Velour

Christiane said...

Velour, be sure to read the comments over at Daisy's post. I think it will put some light on what happened last week. I wasn't surprised to read what I saw there and who was involved. Oh dear.

Anonymous said...

Off-topic.

To: CHRISTIANE

Thanks. I read the comments. It doesn't really explain what happened (except for the 'core group' remark).

But like I said, I'm not going back over there. It was a very irresponsible piece to publish, in my opinion, considering this problem (addiction) is an epidemic in the church. To make it about one guy (a problem pastor) who mathematically represents a much greater problem is simply wrong in my book. No help and hope were offered. No real resources. Sigh. The problem pastor's wife showed up to defend her husband, and no one offered help to her. The 'dog piling' just continued. This is a wife who is in a terrible position: she loves her husband and he has some very serious problems. She should have been shown love, compassion, and proper help.

I don't believe that "H.A." (who is new) who was behind that T.W.W. article about the problem pastor should have been given a forum for his ferocious and inappropriate anger. When anyone disagreed with him he spewed his caustic remarks at people right and left.

Please join me in praying for everyone.

Hugs,

Velour

Anonymous said...

Hi Christiane,

If you ever want to set up a second email account, like a gmail account (google), you have my my second email address and can contact me that way. (I know you wrote earlier that you only email immediate family.)

Out of deference to Wade's blog, blog etiquette rules, I don't want to continue to use this website for our conversation about The Wartburg Watch.

I thank Wade and other readers here for letting me contact you here, the only way I knew how to reach you. Take care.

Thanks,

Velour

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Christiane said...

Hi VELOUR,
I'll talk to the family about your suggestion. You are right that the situation with that comment was 'sad'. I join you in praying for all involved. Have a great Fourth!

Anonymous said...

Thanks CHRISTIANE.

You have a lovely 4th too.

I prayed for all of those angry people over at The Wartburg Watch blog. I will pray for them for 30 days.

Hugs,

Velour

Christiane said...

Hi Velour,
very thankful to BeakerJ for enlightenment on the situation at TWW

things are coming into focus now :)

Anonymous said...

Hi Christiane,

In my opinion, Beakerj wasn't helpful. She inflamed the situation. She didn't want addiction to be talked about.

She was nasty to me. She was nasty to Friend.

Obviously this touched a nerve with Beakerj, but she didn't step back and say, "Yes, this is addiction [in the troubled pastor]."

Unlike others, I separate out addictions from other behaviorial problems.

Regards,

Velour

P.S. Dee didn't help the situation by posting an inflammatory remark about me to other readers. Dee said that I had refused to talk to her. I was busy with work and not available and I am undergoing complex oral surgery in my "free" time. Sigh. I'm in pain.

Christiane said...

no, I wasn't talking about that

BJ let me know about my own situation .... it came out that BJ was telling this to someone on another blog and I read it

it would have been better had the Deebs told me themselves, but at least I know of it, yes

this has been a strange week, and we have had some bad lab reports healthwise which add to the stress so I think prayer helps to put everything into perspective .... time heals all wounds

take care and be calm and rest .... all shall be well

Anonymous said...

Ok, Christiane.

It all seems so dramatic and strange over there at The Wartburg Watch.

I will pray for your family's health. I am sorry to hear about the bad lab reports.

Hugs,

Velour

P.S. Yes, this too -- the drama at TWW -- shall pass. I'm glad that I am no longer a part of such an, overall, negative community. I miss some positive people like you.

Anonymous said...

Christiane,

Did Dee block you from commenting at The Wartburg Watch? Did she put you in slow moderation?

She completely blocked me from commenting, and I will NEVER be back to that block. And that was for raising the topic of addiction in that pastor under discussion.

Anonymous said...

^correction, should read: blog (not "block")

BeakerJ said...

Christiane, You've misunderstood my post. You haven't - as far as I know - had any limits put on your posting. Why would you have been?

V was put into permanent moderation for the time being, & it was NOT for raising the subject of addiction, it was for her behaviour towards others on that thread. It could have been cleared up if she had picked up the phone to the Blog Queens.

I wish her well & am sorry she has chosen not to come back.

Anonymous said...

Hi Christiane,

I am praying for all of them for 30-days over at The Wartburg Watch.

It was a very strange thread about that troubled pastor and the group at The Wartburg Watch, save two people, is incapable of talking about addiction [which he has] separate from other issues that he has committed against former church members.

There is an epidemic of addiction in the Christian church -- in the clergy and in the people in the pews (including among women) -- and that article was very poorly done and in my opinion it should have never been published. It offered no help and hope to others. No explanation of addiction [a regular Wartburger is a recovering alcoholic and he was never asked to share his knowledge]. When the (troubled) pastor's wife showed up to defend her husband, which was natural, the put downs on her continued.

The Wartburgers are just as guilty of failing to properly address this subject as the church continues to be. It was a lost opportunity.

Many people that I know who read The Wartburg Watch, who struggle with addictions in secret or are in recovery, have vowed never to return to TWW because of that thread. They were so disgusted with how the subject was mishandled.

Anonymous said...

^From Velour, to Christiane

Anonymous said...

Hi Christiane,

Pay no attention to Beakerj's comments. She got it wrong. (Dee Parsons refused to correct the written comment she made about me on The Wartburg Watch that I had "refused" to talk to her. I am gone at work and not available to talk with her. My "free" time is tied up with complex oral surgery appointments and I'm in pain. I declined to return to TWW because Dee wouldn't correct the record and actually threatened me when I said she'd gotten it wrong. Totally unprofessional.)

Regards,

Velour

Christiane said...

Hi BJ,
sorry I misunderstood .... thanks for clarification concerning moderation thing

Christiane said...

Hi VELOUR,
sorry to hear about the oral surgery .... I hope they gave you something to cope with the pain ...... if not, call them and let them know you are suffering ..... will pray for you to feel better soon

well, I am waiting on some more medical tests following up some lab reports so time goes slowly .... but I'm peaceful as all will be done that can be done in time.

Hope you are recovering from the upset of last week. After some thought, I believe that the subject matter was upsetting to many people and sometimes that brings on reactions and responses that are not taken well or sometimes, not even understood by others. It happens.

I had forgotten about "D" sharing about needing prayer for troubles in the past, and I am feeling sad about not having kept that in mind.

Let me know how you do with the dental pain.
Hugs.

Victorious said...

Christiane, feel free to tell me to mind my own business....but Velour has graciously expressed a desire to maintain your friendship with her via email communication. You replied that you would discuss that suggestion with your family and it seems that would be a more appropriate way to continue your personal thoughts about past incidents that have obviously resulted in confusion and/or hurt on both of your parts.

Velour even provided her personal email address if I remember correctly in an effort to communicate on a more personal level than is possible and/or appropriate on Wade's blog.

Again, Wade or you can tell me to mind my own business.....but since you've made your correspondence so public, I thought I might express my hope that you would honor her wish and continue via an email.

Seems only right out of respect for both of you....

Christiane said...

Hi VICTORIOUS,
thank you for your advice and I am reminded that communicating personally with Velour here is not in the usual protocol ....

my hope is for her to return to TWW in time (no one can organize a prayer list every week like Velour and so many need prayer) .....

for a time, this will have to do, but I think all shall be well soon, and I think Wade does not mind under the circumstances, at least I hope not

Velour will always be dear to me even if we are not e-mailing and she knows this

is good of you to care and thank you again

Anonymous said...

Hi Christiane,

Someone who reads The Wartburg Watch told me that Dee Parsons just wrote a hit-piece article about me, including my personal emails responding to her.

Dee conveniently ripped out of context that she had threatened me first -- with posting my emails for everyone to discuss over there in response to her (I'm not available due to work and oral surgery appointments in my "free" time when she wanted to talk to me. She was offended that I was busy and demanded to talk to me. I don't have time!)

What would be your response if Dee Parsons threatened you? I've asked everyone that question from Wartburg who has contacted me. They said they would tell her the same thing I did: don't contact me again. I said: "What would you do if Dee Parsons said she was going to post all of your emails for everyone to discuss?" They said they would also tell Dee to "take a hike" and to never contact them again. Completely childish, unethical, and immature for her to do that article, include personal emails, and rip it out of context.

Dee also omitted the former pastor Matt Bays' video that I sent to her in my email, about his being a recovering alcoholic. He drank to deal with childhood abuse [a common problem in men and women who have drinking problems], including being sexually abused, and to deal with stress. It is an eye-opening video about the epidemic of addiction in the church. Why did she exclude something so important?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZqqeEbyeNY

Everyone who contacted me via phone, email, and social media is outraged with Dee and said that she should call it quits.

People have also asked what kind of medication she is on for her health problem and is it impacting her judgment.

It's all very bizarre.

Hugs,

Velour

Christiane said...

Hi VELOUR,
can you not call Dee?

If you talk over the phone, much more is clear than when people are emailing and blogging.

It wouldn't hurt to try. I know you are both upset. Something got confused and I think a phone call might help. You know I care that you come back and help out. Please try.

Anonymous said...

Hi Christiane,

Other people who read The Wartburg Watch have contacted me about Dee. They have advised me not to contact her at all. They have also said they will not contact her at all, including by email about how out of line she is or even on social media because Dee could target them next. She is completely out of line -- and everyone has said it.

People who read TWW want to know what kind of medication she is own because her judgment seems impaired and she is not herself.

She's on my prayer list for 30 days, along with the rest of them over there. That's the only thing I can do.

Regards,

Velour

Anonymous said...

correction: ^"she is on"

Christiane said...

Velour, I'm not 'other people' and I'm sure they want what's best, but a phone call is not something that could possibly make anything worse.

A lot of misunderstandings get worked out when people who have emailed and blogged finally do talk on the phone or face to face.

I can only encourage you to try. It would be a turn in the road. You've prayed for so many and helped encourage so many. I want to support you to re-think your direction. Please do. Hugs.

"“it may be that when we no longer know what to do, we have come to our real work, and that when we no longer know which way to go, we have begun our real journey. The mind that is not baffled is not employed. The impeded stream is the one that sings.”
― Anne Lamott, Small Victories: Spotting Improbable Moments of Grace

Anonymous said...

Hi Christiane,

I have hours of commuting to and from my oral surgery appointments in heavy commute traffic.
I have to travel some distance to see the specialist.

I am not up to it.

I need to be calm and keep my blood pressure low.

I have many appointments scheduled for my oral surgery procedures.

Thanks for your good thoughts.

-Velour

Christiane said...

Will pray for better times. Hug.

Anonymous said...

Hi Christiane,

And another outraged Wartburg Watch reader contacted me after Dee Parson's hit piece about me and said that Dee has become like the tyrants she writes about.

The person said she was gobsmacked by Dee's viciousness and that she too would NEVER return to The Wartburg Watch blog, that its tenor has changed, and she (like many others) wants no part of it.

She wanted to know why "EXACTLY" that Dee would write such an article. She said Dee's veiled threat came across loud and clear.

-Velour

Wanda Martin said...

Because Velour has taken such a strong public stand against The Wartburg Watch, I would appreciate her removing the following from her website (https://gbfsvchurchabuse.org/):

45 TWW re-posts

24 EChurch re-posts

Velour has made it patently clear that she will no longer be commenting on our blog. Given the exorbitant amount of time she has previously spent at TWW, she should now have an abundance of time to comply with my request.

Anonymous said...

Hi Deb (Wanda Martin),

To be clear, I haven't taken "a strong public stand against The Wartburg Watch."
I've taken a strong public stand against being lied about and Dee's unethical behavior.
I am gone at work and oral surgery appointments in another city miles away in my "free" time. I did not "refuse" to talk to Dee as she stated in her comment to readers about me. I am not available. Big difference.

I asked Dee to correct the record to readers and what she wrote about me in my response to her email to me. She would not. Instead Dee threatened me that she would post my emails for discussion. That is completely out of line and unethical.

Dee made good on her unethical threat and wrote a hit-piece about me, including my private emails. Wartburg Watch readers from across the U.S. have contacted me, since I no longer read the blog to tell me about it. They were shocked by how unethical Dee was.

Your readers who've heard about the threats are shocked by your unethical behavior and threats. I've received scores of emails, social media private conversations, and voicemail messages from people who refuse to read The Wartburg Watch blog anymore and are outraged by your bizarre post about me and unethical behavior.

Perhaps you and Dee could enroll in a journalism ethics class at your local community colleges and learn about ethics.

So have countless other people that have written about me.

Why don't you and Dee apologize for your unethical behavior to me and to your readers instead of these further demands (now including to remove reblogged articles since I was a subscriber to the blog, put in charge of the Prayer List, and in charge of the GoFundMe campaigns).

You are factually incorrect, Deb. Dee blocked me from commenting at all on The Wartburg Watch, including to correct the record and defend myself from your factually incorrect information about me.

Regards,

Velour

Anonymous said...

^correction: "So have countless other people that have written TO me."

Christiane said...

People need to talk on the phone. And if there has been misunderstanding, let it be worked out between them, if at all possible.

Please try.

I do think it is still possible, in spite of all I have seen and read. In short, no one has died. Just a lot of unhappy people.

And I tell you this:
'reconciliation' would be a much greater witness to the faith of all concerned than is the present situation, yes

all parties are 'better than this' and to leave 'this' in its shattered form gives so much pain to those who value these parties and their work for the Church

put down this burden,
pick up the phone and talk with one another



Anonymous said...

Hi Deb (Wanda Martin),

A Wartburg Watch reader just contacted me and read your statement here to me. The Wartburg Watch reader wanted to know when you and Dee plan on removing your unethical article about me from The Wartburg Watch?

Regards,

Velour

Christiane said...

Sharing:
in the midst of troubles, some humble witnesses of God's Providence:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vu7L5zVwB9M

Anonymous said...

Hi Christiane,

Thank you for your encouraging words. Ditto fort the video.

Regards,

Velour

Christiane said...

Ah, that video :)
I like to think that God sends help for all living beings who are in the darkness. The Scriptures tell us in Job 12 'ask the animals and they will teach you'

Sometimes when we are weary of human voices, God's creatures can and do help fill in the gap, such is the great mercy of God in the midst of troubles:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vu7L5zVwB9M

BeakerJ said...

V. I want to echo what Christiane says, for you to at least try to contact Dee to sort this out. You are taking a strong stand against TWW, & it's unnecessary.

Here's what I notice: for whatever reason you did not speak to Dee on the phone you could have emailed or messaged, you clearly have time to do that. Most people would have said, 'oh hang on, I can't talk on the phone, but email me', because they would have wanted to hear what the blog owner of the blog they were helping with prayer requests had to say about that difficult thread. There has been no attempt by you to hear what the content of that call would have been, and I suspect you know that you weren't going to like what you heard as you knew you'd gone too far. We all do it sometimes & we all squirm when it catches up with us. Best to look it in the face & get it over with. The issue was never the subject of addiction, which has been discussed many many times at TWW, it was the way you went about communicating with those you disagreed with.

All I see now is you shielding the fact that you didn't want to hear what they had to say behind a complaint about Dee's ethics. It's a glaring omission & such an easy way to shift from thinking about your own responsibilities in this situation by making loud noises about hers. Classic deflection. Classic assumption of victimhood.

It really didn't have to get to this point & it's just so sad it has.

Anonymous said...

Hi Beakerj,

Thanks for your comment. You are, however, incorrect. I have a very busy schedule at the moment and I was not free to talk to Dee when she wanted to. I said so.

When other people that I know are busy and say that they aren't free and it's a bad time for them, I believe them. I don't respond by threatening them. I don't respond with telling them that I will publish their emails for everyone to discuss. That's childish and immature. It's also unethical.

I am however praying for her, you, and others there for 30-days.

Take care.

Regards,

Velour

Wanda Martin said...

Velour,

In addition to removing those 69 TWW posts from your website, I am hereby requesting that you remove our blog from your blogroll at your earliest convenience.

Thank you in advance for complying with this request.

BeakerJ said...

V, if you have time to post here you have had time to talk to Dee, or to email her. This is getting silly, but thanks for the prayers. I too have dental surgery this week.

Anonymous said...

Hi Deb (Wanda Martin),

When do you plan to remove the negative hit-piece about me containing personal emails about me from The Wartburg Watch blog?

It is unethical of Dee and you. It is untrue.

Ditto for the untrue comment Dee made about me in that thread about the troubled alcoholic pastor.

Please do the right thing and change your blog first.


Regards,

Velour

Anonymous said...

Hi Beakerj,

Good luck with your dental surgery. I will continue to pray for you.

The votes are in from my friends and family and they think otherwise than you do about calling Dee.

Take care,

Velour

Anonymous said...

Read the blog post and have scrolled to the comments. Wow, what a bizarre and odd thread!

Since it's public, I guess anyone can join in!

1) If Velour has her own blog, why is she posting here?

2) What kind of family does Christiane need permission from to set up an anonymous gmail or outlook account where Velour and herself can share all the *hugs* they want?

My only guess is that a public forum is what's desired - Velour's blog probably doesn't get much traffic and private email correspondence is well....not seen by anyone and therefore no attention.

Although how much attention the tail end of week old blog gets, I have no idea. Oh yeah, I found it!

Have fun storming the castle!

Anonymous said...

anonymous when pigs fly
https://auntbeulahblog.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/daisies-in-meadow.jpg

RRR said...

Wow! Glad I happened upon this string of comments on such a dated blog post. Had never heard of "The Wartburg Watch" site but have checked it out since seeing the weird conversation going on here. I conclude that the strange-spirited conversations here seem to be representative of the nature of this "The Wartburg Watch" site. Title sounds like something from a Harry Potter film and after a brief visit there, I understand why it was chosen. Folks get their kicks in strange ways.

Anonymous said...

Hi Deb (Wanda Martin),

Wordpress says that you can make The Wartburg Watch blog private so that no one can reblog
it. Wordpress says that there is no copyright infringement with reblogging as it is linked to the original source.

Take care.

Velour

Anonymous said...

Hi Deb (Wanda Martin),

I am filing a legal take-down notice against The Wartburg Watch blog.

Dee and you published my private emails without my legal permission on your blog.

Since you refuse to take down the article about me, I'm filing a take-down against your website.

Regards,

Velour

Dee Parsons said...

Dearest Velour

I have removed the unidentified emails in question from the post. If you will carefully read the post, your name is never mentioned. The post was about how we look for help amongst our readers and what is expected when an individual agrees to help us.

I pray that the God of all peace and love will bring you comfort, fellowship and joy. You are deeply and profoundly loved.

Christiane said...

praying for healing

Christiane said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Michele said...

Is there no moderator here to screen the comment section? This has gone far enough and has nothing whatsoever to do with the original post. Why are Velour, Christiane, and the ladies from the Wartburg Watch being allowed to conduct their business here?

Christiane said...

I think reconcilation IS made possible by the Atonement. So maybe seeking peace between sisters in Christ is not so far from the topic of Wade's post.

Christianity is really all about mending. That is what redemption means: mending something which is broken. Every Christian is called to share with God in mending that which is broken: mending our relationship with God, and with one another.

When parties are this hurt, it is a sign that they cared about each other greatly. In the very degree of upset there is evidence that people cared and valued one another. So, why let the 'diabolos' have his way with them ..... 'diabolos' means 'the one who throws apart' ..... why leave it that he was victorious over these Christian sisters who cared for each other???? These ladies are each of them marked by the cross of the Atonement. And the Cross is a sign of mending and of hope.

I'd say the struggle in the comments here is more about the topic than you realized. I think if Wade allowed the conversation, he would understand this also, but I cannot speak for him.

The Lord Christ reconciles us to the Father AND to one another in His great work of the Atonement.

Michele said...

Does anyone know how I can contact the moderator? Thanks.

Ramesh said...

Thank you for allowing off topic comments. This is fine. Conflicts by themselves are not bad. A normal course for human beings. Even angels have conflicts.

Michele said...

To Wade Burleson:

I just tried to send you an email through the contact page on wadeburleson.com but it would not go through. It just sends me to another web page with this message:

Deprecated: Function eregi() is deprecated in /home/content/26/7131926/html/wp-content/themes/carbon/sendmail.php on line 30

Warning: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /home/content/26/7131926/html/wp-content/themes/carbon/sendmail.php:30) in /home/content/26/7131926/html/wp-content/themes/carbon/sendmail.php on line 49

Here is what I was trying to send:

The comments on this thread have gone completely off the rails and have nothing to do with the original post culminating in a threat by Velour to file a takedown on TWW's site. I do not see how any of this contributes to the original topic of the thread. Why are these people being allowed to air their dirty laundry so to speak in your blog comment section?

Ramesh said...

Emmanuel Enid Staff Directory

http://www.emmanuelenid.org/index.php/contact/staff-directory

Ramesh said...

Emmanuel Enid Staff Directory

RRR said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Wade Burleson said...

Michele,

In 10 years of blogging I have rarely, almost never, moderated the comment section.

I feel the Spirit and people are capable of moderating themselves.

My attention has just now been drawn to this comment section.

Disagreement and conflict happen.

I am uninterested in moderating.

HOWEVER,I do request that commenters not personally attack other people.

In reading a few of the commemts, some personal attacks seem to have occurred. Hurt people hurt people.

Let's all find our healing in Him a not through attacking others.

RRR said...

Good on ya', Wade. Good response. Appreciate you.

Wanda Martin said...

Wade,

Dee and I are so very sorry that this conflict, which began a few weeks ago on our blog (The Wartburg Watch), somehow spilled over to your comment section. It has been a most unfortunate situation.

We apologize to your loyal readers for this terrible imposition and ask for their forgiveness. We hope it never happens again.

Thanks to you and the Emmanuel Enid congregation for allowing us to feature your sermons each week in our EChurch posts. Many lives in the TWW community are being impacted by your inspiring messages.

Christiane said...

Thank you, WADE

I am made peaceful by your comment. I hoped for the best outcome. I am told I did not know 'everything', so if I hoped for a reconciliation that was not possible, it was out of ignorance of whatever it is that I did not know about.

You're a good person. I am glad that you continue your work at TWW with the E-Church. It serves people who struggled with abusive churches and need ministry while they are not attending church in community. Please know I am sorry for my part in any upsets, especially of the good people at TWW. Sorry if I troubled you with any of this. Please also pray for the lady 'Velour' who is very distressed who commented here also. I am worried for her.
God Bless.

Michele said...

Christiane, I am neither bedazzled by your knowledge of theology nor taken in by your disingenuousness. The “Christian sisters” were way out of line—boundaries need to be respected. You had the option to keep this on the QT when Velour asked to speak to you in private, but you declined. For some reason of your own, you wanted the drama to unfold online for all to see.

Wade Burleson said...

Deb,

No apology needed. Conflict happens.

I appreciate the manner in which you both are communicating in this stream, making decisions you feel are in the best interest of TWW, but not making it personal.

Blessings to you both.

Wade Burleson said...

Michele,

I'd like to give some "food for thought" based on my nearly 15 years of being the focal point of peoples' online attacks for standing on principles which I believe the Scripture teaches. People have called me a liar, a slanderer, a gossiper, and a host of other names. They have ridiculed my family, ministry and my life. All online, all public, and all a "permanent record" of what they think of me. It has been, and in some cases, continues to be very personal.

I've discovered two things:

1. The more you try to defend yourself (or others) from online attacks - even false ones - the more it emboldens people to do "just the opposite" of what you are asking. I've learned that sometimes its best to remain silent, similar to Jesus when He stood before Pilate and was falsely accused. In time, people make decisions themselves, not based on what others are saying "about you," but based on what they see you from you. In other words, what one writes, and the spirit of that writing in positive Kingdom work does far more to advance one's reputation than personal defensiveness. There was a recent case when someone said Wade Bureson "falsely declared he had a doctorate" and always introduced himself as "Dr. Burleson." This person made the charge anonymously. I went on the blog site where this claim was made and asked for two things. First, I asked that the person who made this false claim be made known (by IP address from the administrator), and second, I asked that this person provides proof or apologize. Without an apology, there would be legal consequences. In reflection, I may have been too firm, but anonymous accusations are the coward's path. That's one of the reasons I respect Dee and Deb (Wanda). They are known. After I was given an apology by the anonymous commenter (who never identified himself), I asked that the back-and-forth dialogue remain online as a lesson to those who wish to slander other people anonymously. Interestingly, in this comment stream, Dee and Deb are "known people," and if one reads what they've said in this comment stream, you can easily draw a judgment about their character. I do not know Velour, but she obviously feel passionate about a principle, and she feels she has been slandered in an attempt to quiet her. That's conflict. Conflict happens. The Internet makes what used to be private, public, and though I am in agreement with your expressed desire to begin resolution privately, I do not believe external controls (taking down the comments, shaming people, etc...) will effect Christian resolution. In time, God's people are convicted. After 10 years of making it his personal job of slandering Wade Burleson, a gentleman wrote me a heartfelt apology and went back and deleted hundreds of comments he made about me. I never asked for him to do this. I never shamed him into doing it. I left his comments (on my blog) and eventually the Spirit produced the man's response. He's since deleted over 500 of his comments.

2. Most people forget what happens to other people within 24 hours, but if it happens to them, they don't forget in 24 years. So when things are said "about" other people, the only ones who don't forget are the people of whom the things are said. So I've determined to typically ignore what people say about me because everyone else forgets. The only exception to that rule is anonymous commenters who slander. I will draw them out so that they are known, and ask for "proof" or an apology. Once the apology is given - whether or not they are known, I forgive. If they are made known (in other words, they are no longer anonymous), I usually always ignore what they write - and rarely ask for an apology because it does little good (read #1 again).

Wade Burleson said...

So, Michele, the request you have made to "do something to stop the drawn out conflict" in the comment stream of this blog may seem appropriate to you, but it violates my principle of letting the Spirit move in His people without external control from other people - particularly if the people involved are "known."

Blessings,

Wade

Christiane said...

"In time, God's people are convicted. After 10 years of making it his personal job of slandering Wade Burleson, a gentleman wrote me a heartfelt apology and went back and deleted hundreds of comments he made about me. I never asked for him to do this. I never shamed him into doing it. I left his comments (on my blog) and eventually the Spirit produced the man's response. He's since deleted over 500 of his comments."

ah, you had the 'patience' and the 'long-suffering' AND the humility to let the man's conscience be worked on by the Holy Spirit, and the process of repentance unfold

not many see the power of the fruit of the Holy Spirit these days, but in humble ministers, the concern for 'the other' can help bring healing where there was enmity

thank you for sharing this witness, Wade

Christiane said...

for all in need of God's peace (and that's most of us :)
(sorry if any ad is at intro)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUeymJ6JJno

Elisabeth B. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
missdaisyflower said...

Hello.
Sorry to Wade's readers for the off-topic intrusion.

About a week or more ago, a reader named Velour at TWW (Wartburg Watch blog) got angry when another member there, Barbara, made a comment about churches "kicking out" alcoholics.

Velour then went on a rampage down that thread, biting off the heads of several people, including me, who were confused by her posts, or who did not totally agree with her views about alcohol treatment.

Imagine Godzilla (or Kitten-Zilla) stomping on Tokyo. It was like that, but not as cute or amusing.

I published a blog post on my Daisy blog about a week or more ago about all this stuff, linked to that post in a single comment at TWW (Wartburg Watch blog) precisely so anyone from that blog (including Velour and Chrisitane) could post about it there, rather than take TWW or this blog or some other site off-track.

This is the first post I have made to this thread.

To the person above who wrote:

"Anonymous said...
anonymous when pigs fly
...daisies-in-meadow.jpg
Sat Jul 08, 05:41:00 PM 2017"
// end quote

I assume you are accusing some Anonymous poster above of being me, Daisy? That was NOT me who made that post.

I have not even been on the internet at all since July 5 or 6 (I have not been on the internet on July 7, 8, or 9), and the post to which you refer was made on July 8.

If I post here, I will sign off my name as "Daisy."

Signed, Daisy
- - - - - - -
This is the first (and hopefully last) post I will make to this thread.

I don't know why Velour and/or Christiane don't avail themselves of another avenue - such as my Daisy blog thread about this, or Velour's own blog - to discuss this further.

Or, Christiane could totally make a G-Mail or Yahoo Mail address and give it to Velour.

Christiane said...

a reflection for evening

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z28Mi6mUyKo

Ramesh said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Michele said...

Wade,

I would like to set the record straight. I never asked you “to do something to stop the drawn out conflict” anywhere in my remarks to you.

I am perfectly aware that conflict can develop in the comments of a blog post—that’s a given. However, when the comments deteriorate into personal attacks and threats of legal action, that’s where I draw the line and that’s when I tried to contact you privately to determine whether or not you were okay with that. Due to a couple of bad experiences in the past, I don’t follow unmoderated blogs and will not be following this unmoderated blog any longer.

Here is a recap of what I actually said:

(1)
“Is there no moderator here to screen the comment section? This has gone far enough and has nothing whatsoever to do with the original post. Why are Velour, Christiane, and the ladies from the Wartburg Watch being allowed to conduct their business here?”

(2)
“Does anyone know how I can contact the moderator? Thanks.”

(3)
“To Wade Burleson:

I just tried to send you an email through the contact page on wadeburleson.com but it would not go through. It just sends me to another web page with this message:

Deprecated: Function eregi() is deprecated in /home/content/26/7131926/html/wp-content/themes/carbon/sendmail.php on line 30

Warning: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /home/content/26/7131926/html/wp-content/themes/carbon/sendmail.php:30) in /home/content/26/7131926/html/wp-content/themes/carbon/sendmail.php on line 49

Here is what I was trying to send:

The comments on this thread have gone completely off the rails and have nothing to do with the original post culminating in a threat by Velour to file a takedown on TWW's site. I do not see how any of this contributes to the original topic of the thread. Why are these people being allowed to air their dirty laundry so to speak in your blog comment section?”

Christiane said...

Hi VELOUR,
hope things are better with you and the oral surgery is over (and the resulting suffering)

here's another video I think you might like that speaks to God's loving-kindness in court settings with abused children who are nervous to testify
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxaFkBba87I


RRR said...

Okay, you have really tazered my curiosity so I can't stand not asking; Christiane, why is it that you and "Velour" have not established a personal communication link long before now but instead continue to have what seems to be very personal conversation in the public arena? Seems to have caused quite an unnecessary stir. Am I wrong to ask?

Christiane said...

Hi VELOUR,
Hope this finds you better. Doctor's appt. for complete physical today. Little tachycardia this week, 'I wonder why?' :) Lab results came back and no 'C', thank God. My son is traveling for two weeks in the Baltic Sea area (Latvia, Sweden, Finland) so am doing a lot of praying. Please let me know how you are. Come to Imonk some time if coming here is worrysome for you. Chaplain Mike won't mind. :) God Bless!

Unknown said...


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Christiane said...

Hi RRR,

no, of course you are not wrong to ask, if my posting here concerns you, as it may have seemed unnecessary on the surface. Without going into personal matters, I can assure you that I thought it best to attempt to respond to Velour here. I am very grateful to Wade for the gracious opportunity to respond to Velour's request at this site. Sorry for the delay in responding to your inquiry.

Anonymous said...

Hi All,

There is an epidemic of addiction in the United States and in the Christian church.
This a public health crisis, among the clergy and the people in the pews. There is a skyrocketing rate of addiction in women, including older women.

While The Wartburg Watch recently covered the story of a problem pastor who has a serious drinking problems and problems with the law because of it, I disagree with hateful, uneducated comments that so many people made about addiction. This pastor needs medical care, if it will "take". His second wife needs help (his first wife died from cancer). His children need help.

No help was offered. No resources were offered.

A regular Wartburg Watch commenter is a recovering alcoholic with many years (praise God) of sobriety. He was not asked to share his thoughts about dealing with addiction in the church prior to the publication of this story.

Many lurkers at The Wartburg Watch struggle with addictions, including Christian women.
People were reeling from the hateful comments about those who struggle with the compulsion to drink, because for many of them that's their struggle too. I have heard from many of them who no longer deem the community at The Wartburg Watch a 'safe place'. Those comments from many readers drove them further into shame and secrecy with their addictions. They reached out to me, because they know that I will listen and offer help. They know that I will not shame them. They have a bona fide medical problem that changes the brain and the body. (Go to youtube to see the changes.)

When the troubled pastor's wife showed up on The Wartburg Watch to comment, she was not shown love, compassion, or help. She is in a very difficult position. Her husband has terrible problems...and she loves him.

I wish you all well. I will continue to pray for everyone at The Wartburg Watch.

Take care. I am praying for everyone for 30 days.

Regards,

Velour

Anonymous said...

Hi Christiane,

This is my last comment here on this thread. I think it's best to drop the subject now about The Wartburg Watch.

Thanks for asking about me. My oral surgery is very complex with a specialist in another city several hours away. Several oral surgeons are having to consult on the next steps about my case so as not to damage my jaw bone. My most recent appointment was 6 hours.

I've had many appointments and it's a lot of work last week, this week, and in the weeks and months to come.

You know how to reach me at my alternative email address should you ever wish to.

Hugs,

Velour

Christiane said...

Hi VELOUR,
Thanks for responding! I am praying for your surgeries to have a good outcome. Seems so many are suffering physically and in need of prayer these days. Please let me know your progress from time to time .... I don't think Wade would mind even on his current post, just a note to me of how you are; but if you want, Imonk's blog is a sanctuary also where I can hear from you. You are in my thoughts and prayers, as are so many whose struggles are known, and also the many whose struggles we know nothing of but are also suffering. Take care of yourself during this surgery ordeal. Prayers will be said for your healing. God Bless!

Anonymous said...

Thank you, Christiane, for your thoughts and prayers for me, my oral surgery, and well-being.
Thank you for being so faithful to pray for others as well.

I will check in with you now and again here or on Imonk for a short update.

Bless you back, sweet lady.

Hugs,

Velour

Anonymous said...

Hi Daisy,

I am praying for you for 30-days. I don't know how to help you. You seem very negative a large part of the time. You take things out of context. I don't know what that's about.

You have defended a woman on The Wartburg Watch who said in a comment to me that people with addictions should be kicked out of churches. My social media has also been clogged with her uneducated, ill-informed views about this serious medical problem that is a public health epidemic.

Take care,

Velour

Anonymous said...

Hi Beakerj,

I think you've posted on The Wartburg Watch that you are English and live in England.
There is a public health crisis in the United States of addictions: alcohol and drugs.
There is a skyrocketing rate of addiction, including alcoholism, in women -- including older women. That public health crisis of addiction shows up in our clergy and in the people in the pews in our churches.

Perhaps our public health crisis here in the United States doesn't register with you there across The Pond in England. It matters to me. And it matters to me that people who are suffering are handled correctly and offered proper help.

It wasn't possible to have a cogent, medical-based discussion on The Wartburg Watch about the problem pastor with the drinking problem, offering help to him, people like him, his spouse, and his children, and to other people impacted by his drinking or another person's drinking.

It was, sadly, a missed opportunity. We will hear more stories like his, and another pastor before him, because after all this is a public health epidemic.

I really wish that a man who is a regular commenter on The Wartburg Watch, a recovering alcoholic with many years of sobriety (decades), had been consulted about his experience with addiction and resources for people before that story was published.

Many people who lurk on TWW are also struggling with addictions in secret, have much shame, and they need help. The putdowns of 'people like them' drove them further into secrecy and shame. Many of them have reached out to me, knowing that I know that they have a serious medical condition and they need proper help.

We don't really know what drives people to drink. Many people -- men and women -- were sexually abused as children. (You can see these stories by doctors on youtube.) Others
have genetic predispositions that make them crave alcohol. Others have mental illness, depression, anxiety disorders, extreme stress, loss, and adult trauma that they 'manage' by drinking to numb the pain and shame. Some people were regular drinkers, and because of the addictive nature of alcohol it turns on them and they compulsively drink.

I may not agree with someone's theology like the pastor in that story, or how he mistreated current and former church members, but I would never begrudge him, or anyone like him, medical care for a serious problem and other necessary help.

I wish you well with your oral surgery. I am praying for you for 30-days.

I have enjoyed visiting your country. I worked one summer for Yorkshire Cricket.

Take care,

Velour

Christiane said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
missdaisyflower said...

(Must break this up in more than one part, b/c this blog does not publish one long comment)
(Part 1)

To Velour, from Daisy

To all:
If you don't see my name in or on a post I leave in this thread, don't assume it is me.
Someone above made a post as "Anonymous" and then another Anonymous implied the first Anon was me (it was not me).
- - - - - -

Velour said:

"Hi Daisy,
... I don't know how to help you. You seem very negative a large part of the time. You take things out of context. I don't know what that's about.

You have defended a woman on The Wartburg Watch who said in a comment to me that people with addictions should be kicked out of churches. My social media has also been clogged with her uneducated, ill-informed views about this serious medical problem that is a public health epidemic.
...Velour
// end Velour quote

I don't need your help, Velour. I already figured out what my issues were and largely over-came them already, no thanks to the psychiatrists I visited over 20+ years who mis-diagnosed me.

Why don't you stop by my Daisy blog to discuss this? I have two threads about this where you are free to comment.

I did not defend Barbara Roberts in the TWW thread, not in the way you describe or imply. You are now taking my views and comments out of context.

I already said on TWW I am rather agnostic about whether or not alcoholics should be kicked out of church for being alcoholic.

I'm not even 100% sure what Roberts meant by "kicking them out of church" in the TWW thread.

Roberts' point, per a section of 1 Corinthians 5, is entirely debatable:
the Bible does say that unrepentant drunkards should not be fellow-shipped with.
The Biblical quote on that issue is:

/// quote (1 Corinthians 5)
But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one
/// quote

Why not go to my thread about that topic on the Daisy blog and defend your interpretation that says 1 Cor. 5 should not be interpreted in that manner?

What I did do at TWW was point in regards to Roberts is that you were being rude to her, Julie Anne, and several others in that thread.

I don't so much care about the substance of your opinions about alcoholics in the church so much as the crummy way you treated people while discussing the topic. Do you not understand that?

You keep mentioning that you have heard from people who are appalled by TWW over the Sproul Jr. / alcoholic thread, so they will not be returning to TWW.

Do you realize I've heard from people in public and in private - some communicate with me directly, and I've seen them talking to others - who say your behavior was one thing that drove them away from T.W.W.?

You continue to neglect taking personal responsibility for your off-putting behavior in that thread.

Anonymous said...

(part 2)
Post by Daisy
ATTN: Velour:

Further, for whatever reason, you equate someone disagreeing with you, or holding differing views about addiction treatment, as being "hateful," or you use other negative terminology.

I wouldn't say I am negative, but I am a realist.

TWW blog routinely covers topics such as spiritual or child abuse in or by churches: why oh why would you expect their subject matter to be cheery?

You keep saying the TWW blog is too "negative," that it's not sunny and cheerful enough for you.

By default, reportage of child abuse cover ups or spiritual abuse is going to be "negative" or a "downer."

I have no idea how Deb and Dee can make posts about child abuse scandals by churches more happy-clappy and cheerful. Maybe they could add smiley face drawings to all their blog posts? What would you suggest?

You don't want to accept the fact that A.A., other 12 step programs, and secular psychology and medications do not always work for everyone - they didn't work for me, and I have a post critical of A.A. on my Daisy blog with quotes by former AA members who say AA did not work for them.

I have always said in such posts that I am not dissuading other people from trying AA or secular psychology, but I want them to be prepared that these approaches may not work for them. However, you continue to overlook that part of my posts.

There is no one magical, instant, one- size- fits- all solution for drug addiction, depression, and other problems, Velour.

Please stop spreading this falsehood that if anyone and everyone goes to A.A. meetings, or attend church services, or take anti-depressant medications, they are guaranteed to be cured (this is pretty much the view you keep implying or presenting).

Issuing false hope, as you tend to do in these matters, is just as bad as, if not worse, than offering "no hope."

I have several alcoholics in my family, including a grandfather, siblings, and two uncles - yet you keep acting as though myself and others "hate" alcoholics or are totally ignorant of the topic.

(By the way, have you figured out by now that poster Christiane is not really your friend? I explained this in posts at my Daisy blog.

That Whiner Guy at the Whiner blog you have posted to as "Anonymous" in order to complain about T.W.W. is also not your friend.

Just a few weeks ago, Mr. Whiner was ridiculing you and/or me in one of his "anti-women" blog posts.

I can kind of understand if you feel hurt or angry at TWW people and want to vent about it somewhere online, but Mr. Whiner's blog is not a wise place to do so.

Mr. Whiner doesn't care about you; he's just gleeful that someone else is on his blog to complain about T.W.W., because he has a weird, long-running, negative obsession with TWW.

Mr. Whiner stopped by my Daisy blog over a year ago under two names so far, to try to entice me to complain about TWW. (I didn't take his bait.)

By the way, you have a blog of your own. Why not write one blog post on your blog stating your displeasure with TWW?

And/or, you can come to my Daisy blog to state your case in the threads there.

Why keep coming to Wade's blog here, or to the Whiner blog?)

Signed, Daisy

Jeannette Altes said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Christiane said...

Hello JEANNETTE, I have altered the comment so you may be peaceful.

"Christiane said...

Hi VELOUR,
good of you to pray for others during this time ..... I am also, as so many suffer from illnesses over many years duration and have sought help but report that it has not worked for them ....

perhaps that is where misunderstandings occur, when folks who have been abused since childhood give up on professional help and medication and then seek to turn others away from it also?

Such people can be helped best by prayers for their healing from suffering. And it IS important not to do anything to aggravate or feed into anything that might cause further injury inadvertently. 'At least do no harm' is the best way to put it. In time, their negative attacks may calm, and they may be able to come to some kind of recovery and renewal and become the person they were meant to be by Our Lord Who loves them as they are now in their struggles . . . . . like that man Wade described who persecuted Wade and when Wade responded only with long-suffering and patience, the man came to understand what could only be learned from someone who had been gifted with that 'patience' and 'long-suffering' that is of the Peace of Christ and has within it no desire to harm the aggressor who is already a hurting person.

There is a lot of pain in some of the people affected by the last two weeks communications (or lack thereof), but I think Wade's story is something to learn from. And there is also that old Franciscan thought that it is better to understand than to be understood.

It's Sunday. In time all shall be well. God is not far from any of us.
BTW, Wade's sermon on TWW E-Church is wonderful.
Some thoughts for VELOUR and others who may read them who have been involved in troubling communications such as ('Daisy' and Lydia and Jeannette Altes) on this beautiful 'Lords Day'. Special prayers for all who are physically ill and worried.

'Shepherd us, O God, beyond our fears. Amen.'
:)

Jeannette Altes said...

Christiane, thank you for fixing and now it makes sense.

Christiane said...

Hi JEANNETTE,
yes

Christiane said...

Boy howdy, are there some folks with a lot of insecurity and anxiety and in the middle of it all, things have been said to suggest that they are much worse off as a result of recent events. I am sorry for any part of my own in the trouble, but I am also angry that people have not REALIZED that their own baggage played a role in the strife that unfolded. People are not to 'blame' for how they react to certain issues when they have experience so much pain in their lives from those issues. Trying to blame someone in a case like this makes no sense. And that is troubling because I count on there being enough adult experience among the group involved to understand that the 'talk' on the surface was about deeper issues altogether.

I think the degree of insecurity is at too high a level for people to continue with the kind of enmity towards one another that they carry. So here's to any and all 'adults in the room' who can get enough perspective to step back for a time and examine WHAT made them 'insecure' and troubled and why it was that they sought relief in even more destructive ways.
People need peace. And rest. There is too much in the way of upset and pain out there. Take a break from all the 'drama'. It's time. Get some rest friends.
Here's to sensible introspection for everyone.
A little added humor to brighten the night:
"“I thought such awful thoughts that I cannot even say them out loud because they would make Jesus want to drink gin straight out of the cat dish.”
(Anne Lamott)

Dale Rudiger said...

Christiane, who is insecure? What things that have been said have troubled you? What part that you have played in this "drama" are you sorry for? Which people are you angry with? Which people are not to bkame? What issues are being reacted to, and by whom? Whose degree of insecurity is too high? Who acted in destructive ways? Boy am I confused by your communication. Please be straightforward and speak without horns.

Christiane said...

Hello, DALE

The people who are distressed (very distressed) are the ones I am addressing. It is hard to see people who are unwell and in pain, and worried about their health, ALSO experiencing upset over the troubles of the last few weeks. I'm hopeful that there will be a break in some of the insecurity I've observed, and of the worries that add to already over-stressed individuals.

Things will improve in time. But it's not just a 'tempest in a teacup' when individuals are in pain from illness or surgery. That is hard to see and not hope for something better for them. I accept that there is no 'going back' but at least I hope people will go forward in a good direction and be more peaceful than they are now. Prayers to this end, yes. Horns? never that.

Dale Rudiger said...

Oh, sorry Christiane. I thought you were addressing certain people who are insecure, anxious, much worse off, ignorant of their baggage, blameless, blaming, immature, who lack perspective, troubled, self-destructive, and upset.

Christiane said...

Hi DALE,
you were looking for a 'detailed' rational response to a heart-felt concern for two people especially who have been in physical pain and now are very stressed.

If you wanted 'rational' response instead of 'heart-felt', I cannot be forthcoming, no. If you wanted personal details and 'names', then I am also unable to be forthcoming.

As for reason being superior to 'the heart' in the matters I was concerned with, there is only this to share that may help a little to understand my obscurity:
"“”The heart has its reasons which reason knows nothing of.”
(Blaise Pascal)

Have a good evening, DALE

Anonymous said...

Christiane,

You are doing a very good job of making a bad situation worse. If you are a truly nice person then it is time to stop stirring the pot. If you are not a nice person then I guess you will just continue. People are beginning to see who you really are.

Christiane said...

Anonymous,
We disagree.
On my part, hopefully respectfully. Have a good evening.

Christiane said...

an beloved epigraph .... for a summer night's meditation

"Only in silence the word,
only in dark the light,
only in dying life:
bright the hawk’s flight on the empty sky"

(Ursula Le Guin)

Dale Rudiger said...

Christiane, I know you can't help yourself. You have been expressing your negative feelings in an indirect manner. You do not have the ability to state your disapproval in a direct manner. You miscommunicate in a way so as to cover up your hostility. You assume that we can decipher what you are thinking and feeling. You disguise your criticisms as compliments. And you absolutely must have the last word.

These are all traits of passive aggression. "Let our information and social technologies raise awareness, build connections, and not passive aggression." (Criss Jami).

Unknown said...

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Christiane said...

I look at the various comments and I see them as mirrors of the people who made them. This, at least, is beneficial to these people, if they go back and examine what they have expressed.

So, it is a 'record' of sorts that something happened, that people suffered, that people ALSO cared that somehow that suffering might be healed in a good way.

Like that wonderful cave in South America's Patagonia region: The Cueva de los Manos, where prehistoric people made a statement 'we were here', 'we existed' 'we were human persons'
..... there is at least some dignity that people CAN record that they were in a community, that something terrible tore them apart, and that they suffered, and that there were people who hoped those who suffered would find healing and peace again.

A mirror. A record. A witness that human persons were here. That they cared.
I think that is not such a bad thing at all. :)

Anonymous said...

Update.

Since Deb at The Wartburg Watch demanded that I take down reblogged links from my blog to articles on TWW's website, since my disagreement with TWW's uneducated stance and many of its commenters about how we deal with alcoholism and addiction in the church (this is a public health crisis in the United States according to the U.S. Surgeon General's reports and yes, even in our churches), now the big law firms and attorneys representing Wordpress, other blogging companies, and First Amendment groups are now involved in California (my state).

The big law firm Copyright and First Amendment attorneys advised the Wordpress company about the design of the reblog feature prior to its release to users so that it would comply with federal Copyright Law, "Fair Use" law, so that rebloggers who follow blogs like TWW aren't in violation of federal law.

So now all of those attorneys are spending time on this. They asked what this heated debate was about and were incredulous that The Wartburg Watch couldn't cover a public health epidemic about addictions (alcoholism and drugs) and advocated that people with those problems be kicked out of churches! Not medical care or other help was advocated for those addicted, nor help for their spouses, nor help for their children. No education and resources were given...for a public health epidemic! Talk about a missed opportunity and a missed educational moment.

The First Amendment attorneys in California are now also involved from big law firms, since according to The Wartburg Watch, who apparently doesn't understand the user agreement they signed up for including reblogging notifications released to followers works, and TWW wants people to remove those links and silence Free Speech. Well that didn't go over well with the attorneys.

The big law firm attorneys said about the reblogging feature, "It's like quoting a person and giving their name." Wordpress won't be taking down the legally compliant reblogs from my blog.

And for all of you who advocated that people be kicked out of churches instead of getting comprehensive care for addictions and related problems (like trauma that is beneath many peoples' addictions that they are numbing), you look terrible before all of these top-flight attorneys.

According to the U.S. Surgeon General only 10% of people who are struggling with addictions (alcohol and drugs) receive help. 90% of people who need help with addictions do not receive any care.

https://addiction.surgeongeneral.gov/

Regards,

Velour

Christiane said...

Hi VELOUR,
how's the dental work going? It sounded like you were anticipating more work to be done, and you have my sympathy with that.

I read your comment, and I thought maybe some of the people who reject 'treatment' for addiction (that is medical or professional mental health therapy) HAVE actually tried to get help for it from those sources and for them, there was no respite from their suffering. So they stick with self-medicating with more substance abuse and their troubles are compounded.

Or, in the case of anxiety and depression, they ask for prayer, having tried for years with psychiatrists and medication, which they feel failed them, as they still suffer.

People have different journeys, different experiences, different outcomes from intervention;
so it makes sense that some will not have any faith left in professional treatment.

In short, you can offer information and suggest professional intervention for addiction, but your good intentions may be rejected. People lose trust in advice about that which they HAVE tried that didn't work for them. The best you can do is to offer the information and then maybe to LISTEN while they tell what happened in their lives that led to their addiction or depression. No one can be 'convinced' by anyone else to sort out that which must come from within themselves .... they must be the one who controls and takes charge of their own decisions and actions, if any good is to come. It's not easy for them to do this, nor is it easy for others to see people suffer and not be able to 'make' them help themselves. Just some thoughts on some of what seems to have been a difficult couple of weeks. Remember that even wanting better for people is, in itself, a kind of prayer. :)

I expect to hear from you that you are feeling better soon. Dental pain is very wearing. I hope the doctors are giving you something so you can rest. Prayers are being said for your recovery. Hugs.

RRR said...

Hey, Velour, sorry to step into what may be a very personal conversation, but hope you will allow me to make a couple of comments regarding addiction relative to my personal experiences.

I am a co-dependent. Right now I am inflicted with two meth addicts recently incarcerated who are dear, loved, relatives. Both have been suffering from addiction for decades. Another relative even more dear to me, is a heroin addict who has been clean for 10 years. He has married an awesome, Godly, supportive woman (only after his recovery program was completed, which took years), and has just had his second son. Has completed his bachelor degree and close to completing his masters, all following a long, tough recovery program.

I have gone through extensive group therapy and training to help me know how best to respond as one close to these and how to behave in a manner most helpful to them and myself. During the course of walking alongside those who are going through rehab programs, I see that almost all relapse. The ones I have seen succeed are those who are so desperately seeking to win that they are determined to entirely leave their old lives behind. Really.

They have abandoned their previous residence area, totally cut off all communication and contact with former companions, associates, "friends", and enter controlled rehab residence programs for years. They NEVER go back to former associates. The programs they entered are very strict and controlling during the first months or year, then as the addict's worldview, self-identity and mindset changes, they begin a very slow and gradual process of reducing the strict accountability measures through half-way residences and eventually, acquire victory.

A person who is an addict for years cannot be expected to go through a few weeks or months of rehab and escape the power that substances have over them. They cannot be expected to change the way they think or to change those with whom they have contact and who behave in ways that contribute to their addiction. Neither can an addict be expected to make rational decisions on their own because they are totally under the control of substances that have power over them. An addict friend told me, "To expect an addict not to relapse and submit to a craving when on their own is like feeding a person 100 packages of Ex Lax, putting them in a van on a long journey and expecting them to control their movements."

Sorry if I seem to be intruding or talking down to you as though you are not already aware of this. I am so sick of seeing the destruction, pain, and impact on families that this drug epidemic is having on millions. I believe we generally take it too lightly, respond in ignorance and wishful thinking, and as a result, our loved ones eventually either overdose, go to prison, or kill themselves out of hopelessness.

I tell friends that true recovery may take 4, 8, or even 10 years, but at least you can reach a new beginning. It is possible, but very radical steps must be taken. Anything less than taking that first step to enter a serious program is sure to fail.

Blessings to you.

Anonymous said...

...and you had no time to talk to dee, Velour?

Christiane said...

Anonymous, show some patience with people ....
in God's time, all shall be well :)

On 'the other side', there will be no more misunderstandings, only peace among those of good will who cared

Beakerj said...

Hi V,

I cannot believe this is still going on. But as it is let me quote you: I may not agree with someone's theology like the pastor in that story, or how he mistreated current and former church members, but I would never begrudge him, or anyone like him, medical care for a serious problem and other necessary help.

No-one was begrudging him proper medical care, no-one, (I cannot emphasise that enough as it is a most important point) & especially not the commenter you have decided was saying something it was made clear to you she wasn't in fact saying. Misrepresenting things over & over again still does not make them true, & I wish you'd see that.

You clearly need that thread to be saying something it wasn't saying & are choosing to run with it, deflecting away from your poor behaviour & bad manners there, to a national problem the US is having with addiction. That the US has this issue does not excuse your ongoing falsehoods. Trying to make that thread do something it was not designed to do does not cover up your own shortcomings there.

We all get it wrong, we all run our mouths off sometimes, even with good intentions, but we don't all go on some nonsensical rampage through several blogs to cover it up. Come on V, you can do better than this.

Christiane said...

I don't understand several important things that happened, but I am not sure of the reason(s) that people were UPSET that I chose to communicate with Velour on Wade's post,
in a place where few people tune in as the post is an old one.

What harm was done by this?

For example, I don't know any person named 'Michelle' and yet this person has posted here in a great state of upset. So there is mystery. It's almost a case of 'methinks the lady protesteth too much' and I am left to wonder two things:

1. What was it that I didn't know?
2. Why are people so concerned that Velour and I communicate here?

I am honestly left with more questions than answers. From my point of view, I see Velour posting here and 'venting' some of her frustrations; and I see others on several blogs commenting very openly that they are terribly offended.

I am not posting 'my dirty laundry' here. I want to clarify that. I am at peace with trying to encourage Velour to make a phone call so that misunderstandings might possibly have been resolved.

Something very terrible must have happened that I am not privy to, for some very responsible people to be so upset that Velour has a voice here. She's not feeling well. Neither is Dee, who is in pain and worried about her health. These ladies neither of them need this trouble. For me to want something better for them is pretty far from 'airing dirty laundry'.

As for sharing people's private information, that is not something I am into because it is not the right thing to do. But as for encouraging people to communicate with the hope of understanding and reconciling differences, I am fully on board with that behavior and I accept the consequences, because that, for me, IS the right thing to do. I remain at peace and in prayer that others may also be at peace. It's time for people who don't feel well to rest and cease worries and upset. God Bless!


Anonymous said...

No one knows anything about the truth of what anyone says about themselves online unless proof is offered or found. Be cautious of taking anything at face value and repeating or believing things that someone has *told* you online. By acting on unsubstantiated information one could inadvertently make things much worse for lots of people. Add wisdom to compassion to be effective.

Athlone gurl said...

I think it would be wise to stop the comments.Commenting will just encourage and inflame . Best to just ignore and move on.

Christiane said...

my thought is not to silence anyone, but to 'listen' and try to understand

if silencing a person is being considered 'wise' by some, I think the people who are into that kind of thinking may likely 'have got hold of the wrong horror' to paraphrase Flannery O'Connor.

I'm very concerned about the level of comments I have read here and on another blog. It's not 'silencing' that's needed, not here, not there. What's needed may be more than can now be summoned, but in the meantime, allowing 'venting' may help take the edge off of some of the upset. It is hard to read it, I know, but people are needing to get their frustration out in their own words. They can 'edit' it later, when the upset is somewhat past. I hope for people to have some patience with one another, but I would not want anyone to be silenced, no. There is too much 'silencing' going on among Christian people.

Christiane said...

ANONYMOUS wrote, this:
"No one knows anything about the truth of what anyone says about themselves online unless proof is offered or found. Be cautious of taking anything at face value and repeating or believing things that someone has *told* you online."

I would change ONE WORD to make Anonymous' comment even more meaningful during the present crisis:
"No one knows anything about the truth of what anyone says about ANOTHER online unless proof is offered or found. Be cautious of taking anything at face value and repeating or believing things that someone has *told* you online."


Anonymous said...

I did mean that one should not even believe primary commenter without proof. My previous comment stands as is. That comment is meaningful to me and others, even if it is not meaningful to you.

Christiane said...

I am aware of how it is that the change in your comment might not be acceptable to you in the present situation.
But I felt it had to be mentioned for the sake of all concerned, yes.

May this, from the Jewish tradition, help someone who reads it:
" A Chasidic tale illustrates this point: A man went about the community telling malicious lies about the rabbi. Later, he realized the wrong he had done, and began to feel remorse. He went to the rabbi and begged his forgiveness, saying he would do anything he could to make amends. The rabbi told the man, "Take a feather pillow, cut it open, and scatter the feathers to the winds." The man thought this was a strange request, but it was a simple enough task, and he did it gladly. When he returned to tell the rabbi that he had done it, the rabbi said, "Now, go and gather the feathers. Because you can no more make amends for the damage your words have done than you can recollect the feathers."

Speech has been compared to an arrow: once the words are released, like an arrow, they cannot be recalled, the harm they do cannot be stopped, and the harm they do cannot always be predicted, for words like arrows often go astray."

May God protect the vulnerable who are not totally responsible for all they do and say.
May God keep the vulnerable from influences that hurt them and indirectly harm others.
May God help people who are responsible understand that their words should never be used without this consideration: that their words have the power to accomplish harm to others that may not have been intended.

some things to think about, yes


Anonymous said...



"Something very terrible must have happened that I am not privy to, for some very responsible people to be so upset that Velour has a voice here. She's not feeling well. Neither is Dee, who is in pain and worried about her health. These ladies neither of them need this trouble."



Not feeling well is no excuse to treat Dee/Deb the way Velour has treated them publicly.

1) Velour tried to take over TWW blog and acted like she owned it and created a divisive climate.
2) Velour demanded Dee remove her e-mails. Dee did.
3) Deb asked that Velour remove the reblogged posts. Velour refuses.
4) Instead, now she claims she has attorneys looking at this case and threatens lawsuit, never naming said attorneys.
5) Velour is praying for 30 days. This is not praying in secret as scripture commands. And then what after 30 days? I'll bet other people are praying, too. God hears their prayers just as much as Velour's.
6) Velour took advantage of Dee during her health crisis, knowing that Dee could not respond. Strange how Velour's dental crisis has not kept her away from posting, yet she can't seem to find the time to call Dee. Cop out.
7) Velour has been publicly rude to Dee. Dee has been continuously gracious.

Christiane said...

This is what I DO know, Anonymous:

May God protect the vulnerable who are not totally responsible for all they do and say.
May God keep the vulnerable from influences that hurt them and indirectly harm others.
May God help people who are responsible understand that their words should never be used without this consideration: that their words have the power to accomplish harm to others that may not have been intended.


there are people tangentially involved in this crisis that are extremely vulnerable souls, and I am very conscious of 'at least do no harm' ..... but I would ask these dear people to at least consider becoming calm and thoughtful for a time, for even a few days so folks can breathe and think



Anonymous said...

My advice to all who have been commenting on this brouhaha - it's time to drop it and move on. Of course, for those who wish to continue in this absurd spectacle, feel free to carry on. Hopefully it will become an echo chamber that will eventually fade into Oblivion.

Anonymous said...

To add to the recent comment. When you stop feeding the monster, he will shrivel up and fade away. ��

Christiane said...

a meadow hymn for a summer's night .... enjoy! :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvtT3UyhibQ

Anonymous said...

Last word.

Michele said...

’Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

Christiane said...

My son is in Latvia with his fiance visiting her family, and they are also going to Stockholm SWE. Hence the lovely music of a northern latitude summer night. :)
Here is a lovely Latvian folk song to bring joy and brighten the evening:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJndwCWCWGo

Anonymous said...

The rumor is true! Christiane must have the last word.

Take it away, Christiane, we are all watching.

Ladies and gentlemen, Christiane's LAST WORD . . .(brace yourselves) . . .

Christiane said...

a respite from the all-consuming summer's heat (after the ad, sorry) .... Enjoy! Fall is coming~

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr1qiKoMyQ8

Wayfaring Stranger said...


“A reprimand goes deeper into one who has understanding and a teachable spirit

Than a hundred lashes into a fool.” Proverbs 17:10 (AMP)

Christiane said...

A beloved childhood memory:
A little New England summertime humor, in honor of the good Aunt Evelyn who taught us cousins to love all things natural, fresh, and wholesome.

"Do unto those downstream as you would have those upstream do unto you."
(Wendell Berry)

Reading Berry's words reminded me of my aunt Evelyn who took all of us cousins up into the mountains and state parks of western Massachusetts for berry-picking, swimming in ice-cold lakes, and climbing up fire towers because Evelyn knew the rangers. (Everyone should have an aunt like this.)

One day at Mt. Tom, Evelyn is filling her spring water bottles at a tap coming out of a mountainside and a ranger comes along and says 'Evelyn, you don't want that water!'
So Evelyn says 'I've been getting water here for years for the whole family. It's the best.'

'Not any more,' says the ranger,
'This whole summer, hippies have been camping upstream and peeing into the water.'
We had to revive Evelyn before she could drive us home.


Christiane said...

for perspective ....... and being grateful for the really important things
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe87cNLQCqA

Wayfaring Stranger said...

“Stone is heavy and sand a burden,

but a fool’s provocation is heavier than both.”

Proverbs 27:3 (NIV)

Christiane said...

"It is written, better to be a fool all your days than for one hour to be evil."

a story: my five-year old son was once called a fool by a kid who shoved him into the dirt at a playground, and I watched my son get up and try again to befriend the kid who shoved him in the first place. . . . . some of the other children gathered around in anticipation of an impending 'fight', but they were to be disappointed :) My son didn't understand at all what they expected of him. He didn't know 'the rules' and so he wasn't afraid to reach out to be friends in spite of what had happened.

In celebration of my son, whose 'foolishness' I proudly celebrate as wisdom:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/77/4b/58/774b58b852b6d2c02d710ca035d4d4d8--down-syndrome-quotes-father-in-heaven.jpg

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