"I went to Jerusalem to become acquainted (Gk. istoria) with Cephas" - Paul's words from Galatians 1:18.

Except You Enthrall Me, I Never Shall Be Free

"Take me to You, imprison me, for I,
Except You enthrall me, never shall be free,
Nor ever chaste, except You ravish me."
John Donne, Meditation 14

How many of you have seen a sign that says, "WET PAINT: Do Not Touch" and felt the urge to reach out and touch? The Apostle Paul said he would not have known "what coveting really was if the law had not said, "You shall not covet'" (Romans 7:7). 

Christians in leadership, whether parenting or preaching, often make the mistake of believing that protection from sin comes from proclamation against sin. Prohibition, however, only seems to decrease inhibition. The more a person hears "thou shalt not" the more that person says "I shall too!"

The increased desire for sin when Law is introduced is apparent through both self-evaluation and biblical revelation. With this double confirmation of the impotence of Law to destroy the desire for sin, I find it astonishing that Christian people remain steadfast in elevating Law, thereby guaranteeing sin's continuance. 

John Donne, the 17th century pastor of St. Paul's Cathedral in London, England, struggled with illicit sexual sins throughout his life.  After coming to faith in Christ, the temptation for these sins did not disappear. Rather,  John Donne finally discovered what he believed to be the only tried and true means for the avoidance of harmful sin.

"Except you enthrall me, (I) shall never be free, 
Nor chaste, except You ravish me."

The scars that come from Law are only healed by the balm of grace. It is only through the enjoyment of God - the deeply personal and abiding feeling of His mercy, love and grace for you - that you will begin to experience the breaking of sin's bondage in your life. We glorify God by enjoying Him. 

Next time you feel tempted to condemn a sinner - either yourself or someone else - through the imposition of Law, try turning the tables a little and proclaim the glorious riches of God's grace for sinners in Christ Jesus. The deep beauty of God's eternal love is the only elixir against the dangerous and shallow pleasures of this world.

Except Christ enthralls me, I never shall be free.


Ramesh said...

The above excerpt comes from HOLY SONNETS XIV.

Contrast the "thou shalt not" with "thou shalt" of Nietzsche’s "Three Transformations".

One can peruse through The Works Of John Donne.

Rex Ray said...


Did Paul sin when he said? “…I am on trial because my hope is in the resurrection of the dead!” (Acts 23:6 NLT)

I believe the Holy Spirit convicted Paul he had lied because in (Acts 24:20-21 NLT) Paul said: “…what crime the Jewish high council found me guilty of, EXCEPT…I am on trial before you today because I believe in the resurrection of the dead!”

Paul knew the reason of his trial was because he believed in Jesus and to claim otherwise was to deny him as Peter had when the rooster crowed.

I said all that to say I believe the Holy Spirit would have convicted Paul it was a sin to “covet” without him reading the law in Romans. I mean Adam and Eve knew right and wrong without reading the Bible.

Too many times preachers, BF&M, and we ourselves make ‘walls’ to keep sin out but make prisoners within.

Anonymous said...

"In short - the marriage has only ONE head - Jesus Christ."
“I’ve been happily married for 33-year years to a wonderful Christian woman who is my – equal - in every way.”

"The first time that the word equal is used in the Bible is in Job 28:17. The word is used 21 times in the Bible.

The only time that the word equal is used in talking about men and women being equal, is not in comparison to each other, but in comparison to the angels, after man and woman are resurrected. Luke 20:34-36 says, "And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are EQUAL UNTO THE ANGELS; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.This is an important point in the Scripture, and we are told why in II Corinthians 10:12, "For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and COMPARING THEMSELVES AMONG THEMSELVES, ARE NOT WISE."

It is foolish to compare ourselves with anyone else upon earth. Whether we are comparing ourselves to another man and how well he has done in his occupation; or whether a woman is comparing herself to another woman and her children; or whether a man and woman are comparing themselves to each other — all such comparisons are foolish. Such comparisons either fill us with pride (if we think that we have done better than the person to which we are comparing ourselves), or such comparisons depress us (if we think that we have miserably failed in comparison with the person in mind)."

So does being equal with your wife fill you with pride?


Anonymous said...

This post is quite interesting to me as a parent. I have raised my children with a motto of, "there is blessing in obedience and consequences in disobedience." I believed that to be a completely biblical precept. Lately, however, I have been rethinking my stance in light of New Covenant Theology. (Thanks to listening to the recent Covenant series on Wed nights)
This post highlights what I have been struggling with: how do I instill a healthy "fear" of disobedience in my children, yet give them the full understanding of grace? Even though as believers we are free from God's retribution and curse (as He displays toward Israel in the OT) we still know of his chastening and reproof in the New. How do parents offer the liberty afforded with grace, yet an awareness that the Law is healthy, too? Even though we no longer face the "curses and wrath", isn't the law important to keep our lives aligned with His word? After all, there are blessings in obedience and consequences in disobedience, right?

- Hupomone

Todd Harvey said...

Thanks so much Wade.

I'm taking this as "God's grace is there for the one who screams at me, the one who disrespects and disdains me" , instead of judging, plotting how to get even, ... I may still, however, plan and work towards an escape!

Christiane said...

you wrote, this:
" "God's grace is there for the one who screams at me, the one who disrespects and disdains me" , instead of judging, plotting how to get even, ... I may still, however, plan and work towards an escape!"

I think there IS an escape: God's grace helps us also, if we have Christian humility which protects us from the deadly sin of pride that produces anger over slights or insults. With humility, we can remain at peace during times of trial, and also stand strong for others who are being persecuted unfairly. The strength grace brings us frees us from reacting to those who target us with their provocation. We do not feel 'humiliated' by them because we are beyond their ability to upset, as grace gives us an equanimity to endure slights. And yet we can and do stand up for others who are persecuted, even if it means that our efforts for others will cause us to suffer also at the hands of the persecutors. Christ-like humility brings us God's grace. No need to 'strike back', and therein lies the secret . . . we can reach out to the person who persecutes us with compassion for their pain which is being expressed in harming others around them. We can stop the cycle of pain by reacting to our own persecution with love and forgiveness, in the way of Our Lord, but we can only do this with His grace.

Rex Ray said...


Your quoting Scripture of man being equal with the angels is good, BUT the reason you give by quoting Paul is out of context.

Was Paul discussing why man was equal with angels? NO! He was describing men that claimed their authority gave them knowledge that Gentile churches should abide by:

“…those false teachers of yours who must tell you all about themselves and bring long letters [from Jerusalem church Pharisees?] of recommendation with them.’ (2 Corinthians 3:1Living)

“…we do not tell them that they must obey every law of God or die; but we tell them there is life for them from the Holy Spirit. The old way, trying to be saved by keeping the Ten Commandments, ends in death; in the new way, the Holy Spirit gives them life.” (2 Corinthians 3:6 Living)

BTW, I think this should be a goal for every marriage:

“I’ve been happily married for 33 years to a wonderful Christian woman who is my – equal – in every way.”

Anonymous said...

Good day Rex
Pleasure to talk to you. I just firstly want to know something. Are you an administrator or a moderator on this blog or did Wade ask you to talk to me on his behalf?


Wade Burleson said...


I've found Rex to be a fabulous commentator over the years. I've never met him, but he's free to write and respond whenever he feels like it. I'm a fairly busy person and rarely have time to check comments - I do what I can, but it's insufficient. Thanks for commenting. We are on our way out of state to lead a marriage and family conference for missionaries, so I'll be limited in my responses to any questions.

Aussie John said...


I can only say a loud "AMEN!" to this article!


By God's great grace I've been married to one lovely lady for 55 years. We regard each other as equals in all things. I've got to admit that she is often first among equals in some things, especially when it comes to graciousness towards those with whom we disagree.

Anonymous said...

"I'm a fairly busy person and rarely have time to check comments - I do what I can, but it's insufficient."

I am a patient man Wade.

So does being equal with your wife fill you with pride?


Rex Ray said...


What’s with this question you keep asking? (“Does being equal with your wife fill you with pride?”)

Would you explain?

BTW, any comment makes a person ‘open season’ from anyone. :)

Wade Burleson said...


Equality leads to humility. Patriarchy leads to pride.


Anonymous said...

“What’s with this question you keep asking? (“Does being equal with your wife fill you with pride?”)”
Would you explain?”

It makes perfect sense if you understand the “context” Rex.

“BTW, any comment makes a person ‘open season’ from anyone. :)”
Open season? Well then Rex.... did you answer the question I asked? :)

“Equality leads to humility. Patriarchy leads to pride.”

Isaiah 14:14 “I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself – like- the Most High.”
Genesis 3:5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be – like- God, knowing good and evil.”

Interesting philosophy you have there Wade.
However that is not the question I asked. If you don't want to answer then please tell me and I will not ask you again.


Christiane said...

Looks like LINX has a different outlook on 'pride' than Christians have when Christians view 'pride' as the mother of all sins.

Now if LINX defines 'pride' in the sense of the term 'pride and joy', then I can imagine being a husband of a wonderful mother and accomplished doctor would fill that husband with joy and thankfulness. If LINX knows the term 'pride' in its worst light, then attempting to trap WADE would be an exercise in malicious badgering.

But I think Wade has the wisdom to deal with the possibility of a badgering bully rather well, and I find his patience and courtesy to be a part of Christian witness in their current discussion. Persistent badgering can be a sign of someone likely in crisis themselves. So patience and kindness in response is a very strong witness indeed. It allows the opportunity for LINX to clarify his/her meaning of 'pride'.

Humility like that of Our Lord is one of the strongest forces on the planet. We, in the Church, are continually learning the truth of this. :)

Victorious said...


Genesis 3:5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be – like- God, knowing good and evil.”

Those were Satan's words, not Eve's.

Here's what Eve reasoned:

Gen 3:6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate....

God Himself made the trees good for food, and pleasing to the eyes.

Gen 2:9 Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food...

What Eve wanted was "wisdom"(H7919)

Gen 3:6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, (H7919) she took from its fruit and ate...

We can't fault her for wanted wisdom. After all, it is the very same virtue Solomon asked for and God was very pleased with his desire.

Scripture refers to Eve's sin as deception and I personally believe that happened since Eve saw the Tree of Life along side of the Tree of Good and Evil and reckoned she wouldn't die for that reason. At any rate, being deceived or tricked is unintentional in contrast to Adam's intentional, deliberate disobedience.

My thoughts....

Anonymous said...

Good day Victorious.

Thank you for taking the time to give me your thoughts. However I find it interesting that those who talk to me, or like Christiane in her churchian “humility” who talks about me, give this long explanation on points I never raised. All I have is a simple question for Wade that he, nor none of the above who are intervening, have actually been able to answer.

Like I said. If Wade doesn't want to answer then all he has to do is say so.


Rex Ray said...


I’ll apologize if I’m wrong about what I’m about to say, but I think I’m right.

Have you been married 33 years?

If yes, then you are the one that wrote, “I’ve been happily married for 33-years to a wonderful Christian woman who is my – equal – in every way.”

The tricky part about that is you put it in quotes; as if someone else said it. Then you go on a rampage saying:

“It is foolish to compare ourselves with anyone else upon earth…or whether a man and woman are comparing themselves to each other.”

After saying that, you ask the stupid question: “So does being equal with your wife fill you with pride?” And you keep asking again and again like a broken record.

Congratulations on drawing attention to yourself.

Anonymous said...

Hi Rex.
Stupid? What did I say to you that has you so confrontational and hostile?

I told you that if you understood the “context” then it makes perfect sense. I did ask you if you were an administrator or a moderator or if Wade asked you to answer my question on his behalf to his statement (“I’ve been happily married for 33-years to a wonderful Christian woman who is my equal in every way.”). Wade informed me that he has confidence in you to also answer this issue. So Rex you are not acting in agent capacity for Wade and you have not given me your answer to my question (Does being equal with your wife fill you with pride?) in your personal capacity either.

If you don't want to answer the question Rex, then please just say so and I will not ask you again.


Wade Burleson said...


You ask, "Does being equal with your wife fill you with pride?"

Answer: No.

If you are extrapolating that because Satan "sought to be equal" with God and because of his desire, he was filled with pride and punished, so any "human relationship" where equality is sought is one where people are filled with pride - ASSUMES that two people in a relationship are NOT equal.

So I ask you a question LINX.

"Is your wife UNEQUAL to you, and if so, HOW?


Anonymous said...

“So I ask you a question LINX.

"Is your wife UNEQUAL to you, and if so, HOW?”

Those are two questions Wade. :)
My answer to that would be Yes she is my “UNEQUAL”. My reasons for my answer can be explained by something you said.

“Equality leads to humility. [Patriarchy] leads to pride.”

Someone much wiser than I once said.
“Envy insists upon equality. Love admires excellence, and is grateful for it in others. So it is as, as the acute philosopher Plinio Correia says, that we begin speaking of equality and end in the hatred of God [Father....Son....and Holy Spirit].”

So then I guess the questions one should ask is this.
1) Does being "equal in every way" truly show love to God and your spouse?
2) Does being unequal truly show love to God and your spouse?

Thank you for your answer. It seems that my questions cause some strive on your blog so in order not to be seen as a troll I will take my leave.

Soli Deo Gloria.


ScottShaver said...

Question for Linx:

Do you have a wife? LOL

Ramesh said...

The one thing I see in John Donne from reading his Holy Sonnets 14 is the STRUGGLE. I notice this in myself and others too. But why this struggle? All of this is unnecessary when looks at Christ's words of acceptance and looking at the world via a child's wonder and faith. The more I think about this the more I notice most of this is of our own making. Or should I say of what the society expects and does.

Christiane said...


here's a quote you might enjoy:

"“I didn’t need to understand the hypostatic unity of the Trinity; I just needed to turn my life over to whoever came up with redwood trees.” (Annie Lamott)

Ramesh said...

Holy Sonnets:

According to scholar A. J. Smith, the Holy Sonnets "make a universal drama of religious life, in which every moment may confront us with the final annulment of time."[1] The poems address "the problem of faith in a tortured world with its death and misery."[9] Donne's poetry is heavily informed by his Anglican faith and often provides evidence of his own internal struggles as he considers pursuing the priesthood.[1] The poems explore the wages of sin and death, the doctrine of redemption, opening "the sinner to God, imploring God's forceful intervention by the sinner's willing acknowledgment of the need for a drastic onslaught upon his present hardened state" and that "self-recognition is a necessary means to grace."[1] The personal nature of the poems "reflect their author's struggles to come to terms with his own history of sinfulness, his inconstant and unreliable faith, his anxiety about his salvation."[10]:p.108 He is obsessed with his own mortality but acknowledges it as a path to God's grace.[11] Donne is concerned about the future state of his soul, fearing not the quick sting of death but the need to achieve salvation before damnation and a desire to get one's spiritual affairs in order. The poems are "suffused with the language of bodily decay" expressing a fear of death that recognizes the impermanence of life by descriptions of his physical condition and inevitability of "mortal flesh" compared with an eternal afterlife.[10]:p.106-107

My thinking is John Donne was a product of his time, just as each of us are. If John Donne was born during early Christianity this struggle would be either non-existent or diminished.

Rex Ray said...


You said, “It seems that my questions cause some strive on your blog so in order not to be seen as a troll I will take my leave.”

In Internet slang, a troll is a person who sows discord by starting arguments by posting inflammatory off-topic messages with intent of provoking readers.

Linx, my thought would be YOU LEFT TOO LATE.

Ramesh said...

Off topic: New Classical Tracks: Bach and Bell

Anonymous said...

In reading through these posts, I've been mulling over some of the comments made. I think it may be worthwhile to suggest that those who profess Christ remember a wise saying, "In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas"
(In necessary things unity, in doubtful things liberty, in all things charity.)
Since the ideas posted by Linx are not necessary unto salvation, I think demonstrating liberty and/or charity would be a wise approach to consider.


Rex Ray said...


My, that was some great ‘fiddle playing’!

Yes, it’s time for “Off-topic” as I believe “All the potatoes are dug in this field.”

How’s this for off-topic? “Save your Confederate money, boys, the South’s going to rise again.”

Eleven States including Oklahoma and Texas have filed lawsuits against Obama for sidestepping the Constitution by his order for all schools to allow male and female to use any restrooms depending on how they ‘feel’.

Lt. Texas Governor Dan Patrick in today’s newspaper said, “When the president of the United States decides to get into every schoolhouse in America, that’s a violation of local control.”

I think if Obama wants all ‘discrimination’ to be accomplished, he should order male urinals to be installed in women’s bathrooms. :)

Obama’s speech in Japan emphasized his goal of removing all nuclear bombs. That would reduce President Teddy Roosevelt’s “Walk softly but carry a big stick” to carrying a toothpick.

Hey! For a guy that bowed to a Muslim King, maybe he should be known as ‘Apologizing Toothpick Obama’.

Todd Harvey said...

Thank you Christians, I saved your reply.

Two to Rajesh:
1) wow, I hope Nietzsche is never my neighbor! Entirely above any law or constraint
2) you think early Christians were not concerned with their own tendency to sin as Donne was?

One to Wade:
When the law was preached to Jesus (as a boy, for example), was he tempted to sin? When you read the command "honor your father", do you then call your father and disrespect him?
Or rather, when you consider your heart in the full light of "thou shalt not kill", and you see your failings, does it not produce conviction of sin and commitment to change - repentance? Otherwise, are we not all bible-ized petty Nietzsches?

Rex Ray said...


Shannen Coffin who was a lawyer in the Justice Department under George W. Bush, wrote on National Review that Hillary Clinton is using the same excuse of George Costanza on the TV show, “Seinfeld”, to justify her use of a private email server.

Costanza fulfilled one of his fantasies with an after-hours romp with a cleaning woman at his office desk. Confronted by his boss after his lover turns him in; George insisted that the standards for workplace intimacy were not clear at the time of his indiscretion.

Costanza said, “Was that wrong? Should I have not done that? I tell you, I gotta plead ignorance on this thing, because if anyone had said anything to me at all when I first started here, that that sort of thing was frowned upon, you know'..."

Hillary did not go full Costanza in the beginning. At first she insisted she had faithfully complied with the law. In July 2015, she told CNN “Everything I did was permitted. There was no law. There was no regulation.”

But her tune changed last week when the State Department inspector general rejected her legal analysis.

Clinton now insists the governing rules were simply uncertain at the time and she thought it was allowed.

George Costanza’s approach to controversy did not work for George Costanza, who was fired on the spot. Hillary might want to look to more successful crisis-management professionals for advice.

Breaking News at Newsmax.com June 1, 2016

Wade Burleson said...


I think you missed my point. A person filled with the Spirit of love honors his father or mother because "the law is written on their heart." A person without redeeming grace is never motivated to honor his father or mother by Law.

Old Covenant Law only convicts of sin (Paul's words).

New Covenant faith redeems the heart.

Ramesh said...

A lengthy and interesting read: Poetry Foundation > John Donne Poet Details 1572–1631

Ramesh said...

Exploring STRUGGLE ...

Israel is struggling with God. In Christ there is no struggle with God. So in Christ Israel has no purpose or meaning? Logic points that way.

Did Christ struggle with God? To me the answer is no. He endured isolation and burden of bearing our sins and paid with death. This is not a struggle but willingly unto pain of death went to it.

What does all this mean for John Donne's and our struggles when we are in Christ?

Thinking to do. :)

Ramesh said...

On reflection, this struggle is with ones own self and not with God. Even outside Christ, this struggle is with self. My thinking is in Christ this struggle lessens and one is able to be in REST in Christ. Of course even to get there is a struggle with ones own self even though one is in Christ. :)

Scotty said...

You know you are almost quoting John Piper don't you? Amazing that the same truth is arrived at from men very different - yet remarkably the same. I really appreciate your thought and writing Brother.

Ramesh said...

Continuing ... The above thread of inquiry leads us to a very profound and simple unravelling of internal or physcholgically barriers that cause this struggle and the solutions to overcome or sidestep these psychological barriers of entry into REST are indeed provided by Christ himself in his words.

Just as in science, understanding and revelation comes from going from complex to simple, so is the case here.

It is in the BEING and the elementary child like faith and wonder these doors are open to entry to REST.

There are equivalent concepts in other religions but using their language will only confuse Christians and possibly rail the theologians who are not pursuing the basics or fundamentals but are just reciting their knowledge.

BTW compared to other faiths, in Christ there is NO work whereas in others it is ALL work by one to gain entry to REST.

The key in my view is found in the simple words of Christ.

Christiane said...

from a letter written by Tertullian to his wife (circa 202 A.D.):

” How beautiful, then, the marriage of two Christians, two who are one in hope, one in desire, one in the way of life they follow, one in the religion they practice.
They are as brother and sister, both servants of the same Master. Nothing divides them, either in flesh or in Spirit. They are in very truth, two in one flesh; and where there is but one flesh there is also but one spirit.
They pray together, they worship together, they fast together; instructing one another, encouraging one another, strengthening one another.

Side by side they face difficulties and persecution, share their consolations. They have no secrets from one another, they never shun each other’s company; they never bring sorrow to each other’s hearts… Psalms and hymns they sing to one another.
Hearing and seeing this, Christ rejoices. To such as these He gives His peace. Where there are two together, there also He is present, and where He is, there evil is not.”

Ramesh said...

Another word besides STRUGGLE is YEARNING that changes John Donne poetry and places it amongst St. John of the cross, St. Teresa of Avila and others. I found this album speaks of the same yearning: Lover and the Beloved | John Michael Talbot.

What is REST anyway but believing the words of Christ that anchors us to a better reality than reality itself which on simple observations leads us to the discovery of illusions and delusions of what we call reality. Things we perceive are not what they seem.


Christiane said...

your comment reminds me of this:
"Jesus did not come to explain away suffering or to remove it. He came to fill it with His Presence.”

This is the mystery of 'the Peace of Christ' . . . one of the earliest of all Christian greetings was a blessing: 'Dominus vobiscum' which means 'The Lord be with you';
and the reply to that greeting was another blessing: 'Et cum spiritu tuo' which means 'And with your spirit'.

I think these words were a part of the foundational strength of trust in Christ that the early Christians felt after Pentecost had come. Not so much 'fear' and a realization that they were not left alone in the darkness of this world; that there was a Presence which calmed their fears and enabled them to go out into the world with the Good News.

Ramesh said...

Since Wade is busy, I will share this excerpt from Jonathan Biss on Schumann's music. To me this is all related to John Donne, Christ, Nietzsche (yes Nietzsche too, why not) and searching or groping at the edge of understanding and beginning of new things ...

Jonathan Biss on the music of Robert Schumann

Unlike other great composers, whose imaginations are sources of mystery and wonder to me, Schumann’s music feels as if it springs from my inner life: It is the music I would write if I were braver, and a genius. In this unique case, there is no awe, because there is no distance: His music is about me, and for me. When I play his music, I understand everything about him.

Like every performer, I have the capacity for delusion, but I am not quitethat deluded. Schumann did not write especially for me, and I understand his music no better or worse than any of the large army of listeners who so love his music.  But that is the aspect of Schumann’s gift that is most unusual: personal as his music may be, what it describes is universal enough that a remarkable number of people feel that it has a special resonance for them. It is music that articulates the most private thoughts of a large public—individual by individual.

And to be clear, I am speaking about a very extreme degree of privacy. There are, for all of us, the things we tell everyone, the things we tell just a few people, the things we tell only loved ones (and perhaps therapists), and the things we tell only ourselves. And then, of course, there are the things we do not even admit to ourselves; it is at that level that Schumann’s music operates.  Over and over again, in piece after piece, he reaches deep within himself for that which is most obscured, and makes it feel like everyone’s obscurity.

This is a quality to be treasured; it is also dangerous as hell. To acknowledge one’s frailty is healthy; to stare at it repeatedly, with a magnifying glass, under fluorescent lights, is not. But that is just what Schumann does.

Ramesh said...

Christian Living__is It Christ In Me Or Me? | Paul Burleson

A great thinking post. My view is this dynamo works in BECOMING from BEING. This is organic and a natural and continual burst of action/growth. In my mind Christ's words about lilies, speaking without forethought or planning what to say and Nietzsche's wheel impelled from its own hub speak of similar things.

Ramesh said...

Jonathan Biss: Shooting Down The Schumann Detractors | NPR

The above goes with the Schumann comment above.