"I went to Jerusalem to become acquainted (Gk. istoria) with Cephas" - Paul's words from Galatians 1:18.

What Would Happen If Liberty Followed the Student Honor Code In the Ergun Caner Situation?

Liberty University has an Honor Code for students that lists "Reprimands and  Consequences" for violations of the Honor Code. Without arguing the rationale for why certain sins are listed in the differing categories, I would simply like to point out the consequences for Ergun Caner's deceptions were he to be held accountable to the Honor Code in the same manner Liberty University students are.

DECEPTION is listed in the category of sins receiving (12 Reprimands + $50 fine) for each offense. DECEPTION is considered more illicit than gambling at Liberty (6 Reprimands + $25 fine), but less than "associating with anyone who is consuming alcohol" (18 Reprimands + $250 fine). So, while scratching my head wondering how it is less offensive to lie during the preaching portion of the communion service in Germany than it is to be present while German Christians drink real wine during communion, let's put a tally on the actual costs for Ergun Caner's DECEPTIONS according to the Liberty Honor Code.

From the altered biographical data, to the numerous lies spoken while preaching in SBC churches, to the false claims of the number of public debates, one can calculate the number of DECEPTIONS (called "factual statements that are self-contradictory" )  by Ergun Caner, ranging from place of birth, native language, Islamic jihadist training, debate credentials, etc .... A very partial list of "factual statements that are self-contradictory" made by Caner in public forums include:

(1). I was born in Sweden. I was born in Turkey.
(2). I came to the United States in 1969. I came to the United States in 1979.
(3). I came to the United States through New York and learned English as a high schooler in New York. I came to the United States and settled in Ohio and attended high school in Ohio.
(4). I watched the Dukes of Hazard and learned about America while a young man in Turkey. I grew up in Ohio from the age of four where my father was a local Muslim leader.
(5). I dressed in traditional Muslims clothes in high school in New York and prayed traditional Muslim prayers, sometimes in the bathroom. I attended high school in Ohio.
(6). I was trained in Islamic jihad to do to America what was done on 9/11. I was raised by a mother and grandmother who resisted Islamic teaching and taught me Christianity.
(7).  I was led to Christ at a revival service through a classmate and was disowned by my family upon announcing to my father my conversion. I was led to Christ by my grandmother.
(8). My father had "many" wives as traditional Muslim men do. My father remarried after the divorce stayed married to his second wife until his death.
(9). I have debated _(name)_ at _(location)__ on _(date)_. Some of the alleged persons Caner debated have no knowledge of ever debating Ergun Caner, much less meeting him.
(10). My native language is Arabic. Ergun's native language is English and he neither speaks nor understands Arabic and when he says he is speaking Arabic publicly it is actually jibberish.

Taking into consideration the times the same lies ("statements of fact that are self-contradictions") are recorded being told on separate occasions (Prestonwood, FBC Jacksonville, Pastors' Conferences, etc...), and enumerating other publicly documented "factual statements that are self-contradictions" one can place the number of Caner's DECEPTIONS at a conservative 350. The number could be extremely higher, but it cannot be lower based upon the video, audio and written evidence publicly available.

Applying the student honor code of 12 Reprimands + $50 fine for each DECEPTION, Ergun Caner should have  4,200 official "Reprimands" from Liberty and a fine of $17,500. However, since Liberty assesses an additional fine of $150.00 for every six "Reprimands" over 30, Ergun Caner's bill would increase to a whopping $25,450. The Honor Code handbook also states that if a student has over 30 "Reprimands" he must go before the Disciplinary Committee and present a formal appeal to be allowed to continue his education. It is assumed that after 30 Reprimands, the student will no longer to be allowed to stay in school unless the appeal is approved.

I am not suggesting that Liberty treat Ergun Caner any differently than it has chosen to treat him. The Committee's decision to remove him as President (Dean) of Liberty and retain him as Professor is well within the Committee's perogative. What I am suggesting is that it might be beneficial to alter the Student Honor Code Handbook so as not to give the impression Liberty's Seminary leaders are treated in a different manner than Liberty University's students.

Finally, Liberty's Honor Code states:

We, the students, faculty and staff of Liberty University, have a responsibility to uphold the moral and ethical standards of this institution and personally confront those who do not.
One wonders where in the Honor Code the consequences for failure to confront DECEPTION is categorized? I wonder if Liberty's Elmer Towns knows the answer to that question?

112 comments:

Lydia said...

Isn't it strange that Christians need an honor code with fines? Isn't that putting the cart before the horse in a spiritual sense?

Anyway, I would think deception would rate very high and be the most expensive fine due to Revelation 21....it is the most dangerous, eternally.

Wade Burleson said...

Lydia,

Honestly, the Honor Code with fines for students is a tad bizarre in my mind.

But what is beyond absurd is that you would have such an Honor Code for students and refrain from applying similar standards to faculty, refuse to address the public "factual statements that are contradictory" with a factual statement of what is contradictory, and be surprised that others are surprised at the "official response."

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Late breaking news:

Liberty announces change to their Honor Code:

They add the following:

"Misstatements and factual self contradictions": those persons found to be making misstatements and factual self contradictions shall not be worthy of holding the office of dean or president, but shall be allowed to be professor in the theological seminary to teach students to never lie or deceive, but that misstatements and factual self contradictions are ok as long as they're done for Jesus."

CB Scott said...

Wade,

Is there ever going to be a time to let this go for you?

Mercy has been demonstrated by Jesus to be more valuable than justice.

Don't you think it is time to let this man alone?

Thy Peace said...

Deception by a student who is a less mature Christian vs. deception by a professor (+ dean of theological seminary + president) who is supposed to be more mature as a Christian ...

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Wade - I rather like the idea of fines.

We should try that in the SBC churches.

We could raise some serious revenue by charging people for their sins, and increase money for missionaries.

Where sin abounds, so much more does the revenue.

What would we charge for critical blogging?

Wade Burleson said...

CB,

Not only will I "leave this man alone," I will be the first person to invite Ergun Caner to speak at Emmanuel, and pay him a nice honorarium, when ....

(1). He publicly acknowledges his deceit involving his ministry, and
(2). Officially and thoroughly corrects the record by issuing a statement that lets everyone know once and for all the truth about his past, and
(3). Seeks forgiveness for profiting through speaking engagments and royalties based upon his "expertise" built on an embellished testimony.

Ergun Caner is forgiven. The issue is publicly correcting the public contradictions. Once that is done, "this man will be left alone."

Wade

Wade Burleson said...

Watchdog,

I think we should fine CB for acting if it is Christian to "leave Ergun Caner alone" while he perpetually hounds Christianne and Debbie Kaufman for matters of far less significance than public deception.

Mail your fine, CB, of $50.00 to

The Sin Fund: Hypocrisy
Emmanuel Baptist Church
2505 W. Garriott
Enid, Oklahoma 73703

:)

Thy Peace said...

Pastor Wade, you forgot this ...

And second, he will have to relearn how to preach. It can no longer be story after story, putdown after putdown--he will actually need to exposit and exegete the Word of God. Were both things to occur, I would be thrilled to have him preach at Emmanuel.

Cheryl Schatz said...

When a sin is done in public, a public confession and apology is appropriate. When a sin is done in private, a private confession and apology is appropriate.

It appears that Ergun Caner has confessed to misspeaking in private since his confession and apology for misspeaking was done in private without the public's knowledge of exactly what he confessed to or apologized for. Private matters stay private. But what, I wonder, will he do about all the public lies that he told?

If Ergun Caner will not speak publicly to confess his sin and to apologize in order to turn from his sin, is he really acting in accordance with a love for the body and a desire to model the truth? It doesn't appear that he cares more about the One who is the Truth more than he cares about his own interests.

Perhaps churches that have retained Caner to speak as a guest speaker should allow him the opportunity to give a public confession or retract the invitation. If there is no real acknowledgement of sin for the purity of the body, then how will the world see us as any different than they are?

And lest anyone think this is a Arminian vs Calvinist issue, I am not a Calvinist. What I am is one who loves the truth and one who knows that God's grace through forgiveness is amazing when we repent and turn.

Wade Burleson said...

Thanks Thy Peace.

I would, of course, let him know that over the phone during my invitation for him to come to Enid.

:)

By the way, lest folks think I'm not serious, I can assure you that if Ergun Caner does what Cheryl Schatz suggests above, I will be on the phone immediately.

The Squirrel said...

Wade,

Steve Hays over at Triablogue has found and published Liberty University's graduated penalty scale for different types of official misconduct by faculty members and school administrators. It explains a lot.

Squirrel

Lydia said...

"We could raise some serious revenue by charging people for their sins, and increase money for missionaries."

You just made me realize what really bothered me about the fines. It reminds me of the Catholic practice of selling Indulgences.

CB Scott said...

I will be glad to do that Wade. I will send in mine when you send yours in for deceptive statements about Ben Cole.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Caner coauthored a book with Mac Brunson entitled "Why Do Churches Die" (I'm not kidding, these two actually have a book with that title).

On page 208, in a chapter dealing with sin in the church, the authors say:

"Not every disease [sin] needs to be excised publicly. In fact, one of the principles that has guided churches which have survived these spiritual diseases is this: public sin, public confession. Private sin, private confession."

But maybe Ergun didn't write that chapter.

:)

Wade Burleson said...

CB,

?

Nebulous comments without specifics don't count.

If you are referring to Ben becoming Roman Catholic, then you must be the person telling everyone that THAT is a "deceptive rumor." You must have missed SBC Voices and the quote from Ben himself, written this year.

“My reception into the Catholic Church last Spring was the culmination of years of reflection and the Lord has opened doors for me that would have never been possible if I’d stayed shackled in Southern Baptist hell, fighting foolish battles to accomplish silly victories for the Lilliutians who thrive on such pettiness.”

You've got to do better than that CB.

Lydia said...

cb wrote:
"Mercy has been demonstrated by Jesus to be more valuable than justice."

But repentance was still required for salvation. Or do we not believe that anymore? And here we have a TEACHER of the Word.

Where is YOUR mercy for all the folks that listened to Caner talk about himself, bought his books and believed him? Instead, you want so badly to make the messengers the sinners here.

Cheryl wrote:

"Perhaps churches that have retained Caner to speak as a guest speaker should allow him the opportunity to give a public confession or retract the invitation. If there is no real acknowledgement of sin for the purity of the body, then how will the world see us as any different than they are?"

I so hope the churches and organizations who have retained him will give this serious consideration.

But I read yesterday the account of a student in one of his classes who said that Caner spent the first day speaking of his innocence. This concerns me greatly.

Alan Paul said...

CB let not your compassion for the man get in the way of the truth. Experience tells me that if we don't come completely clean when we sin, we will be right back where we were (sinning again in the same way) eventually. He needs to be as public in his remorse and repentance as he was when he was spinning his lies and tall tales.

Darrell said...

CB, how do you handle "If a person claims to love me and DOES NOT keep my commandments, he is a liar and the truth is not in him". especially since the issue is decades of lying and no public repentence."

How do we explain away "By your fruite you will be known". and corr6 "liars, cheats, thiefs, ....etc WILL NOT enter Heaven"

Out in in middle America, with the salt of the earth people, we really do believe the Bible. How can we explain away DECADES OF LYING?

AND HE'S TEACHING THEOLOGY!! INCREDIBLE!

Thanks Wade for NOT keeping quiet about these types of things.

Fearing Only God
Darrell

CB Scott said...

Alan Paul,

You always seem to be a reasonable man.

Therefore, Let me say again, as I have said before. I do not claim Ergun has not sinned. I am saying there comes a time to leave it in the hands of God. I am saying this is no longer about holding a brother accountable. It is far beyond that now.

What purpose does all of this serve now?

Wade Burleson said...

CB,

Set the record straight. Clear the air. Come clean. Tell the truth about the past. THEN move forward.

That's what this serves.

Thy Peace said...

But I read yesterday the account of a student in one of his classes who said that Caner spent the first day speaking of his innocence. This concerns me greatly.

{portrait of a magnificent obsession} > Theology Day 1

Within the first 20 minutes of class Ergun is chatting about the accusations against him, but he made it clear that he isn't worrying about the issue or looking in to it...yet he gave my class an explanation, which I was extremely grateful for since for the next 4 days he would teach me a basis of theology that I would use throughout the rest of my academic life. If you're interested I have 7 minutes of his innocence recorded on my cell phone. *(I have recently been contacted about this media clip via blog comments, and let me make it clear that I will not be giving out any information).

Anonymous said...

Interesting comment from the Bagdad Bob thread that CB might want to contemplate when he asks, What purpose does it serve to talk about this:

Wade,

I don't know if it is permitted to digress into an area opened up in this combox?

I will be bold and digress though and see?

The sin of the man in 1 Corinthians and the sins of Hymenaeus and Alexander were raised in some of the discussions above.

I wanted to note God's sense of humor, even with such sorrows and errors of men.

Consider the depth of wisdom God gave to Paul? He was putting on Satan and directing the Church, as a disciplinary action, it appears from the verses, what Satan had to do for the Church as directed by Paul, regards to both of these incidents recorded in the Bible here:

1Co 5:2 And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.
1Co 5:3 For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing.
1Co 5:4 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
1Co 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

and

1Ti 1:18 This charge I entrust to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you, that by them you may wage the good warfare,
1Ti 1:19 holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith,
1Ti 1:20 among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.

What trouble the Apostle and the Church brought upon Satan, in that with the man, Satan was forced to "destroy the man's flesh that "his spirit might be saved"!

Huh?

And, what double trouble it must have been for the "chief blasphemer of God among men, Satan", to have to teach those two "not to blaspheme God! :))

Might the Godly men and women commenting hereon come together in the Spirit and Prayer of agreement and turn the Caner brothers over to Satan so that Satan has to teach them not to lie as he had to go and destroy the man's flesh so that his spirit might be saved and teach those two blasphemers not to blaspheme?

Wade Burleson said...

I tell you what is plain mind boggling:

Peter Lumpkins, Tim Rogers, Tim Guthrie, you and other BI guys went off on people who even SUGGESTED impropriety in the speeches of Caner.

Then, when the Committee comes out and confirms "factual statements that are self-contradictory" you guys are saying "Enough!" but the RECORD has NEVER BEEN SET STRAIGHT.

Wade Burleson said...

Anonymous,

Honestly, I would prefer to deal with Caner as a brother in Christ and bring him to public confession and repentance of his public sin than to do what the Apostle Paul suggests and turn him over to Satan.

Just my feelings.

CB Scott said...

Wade,

You and I both know I am not talking about Ben's becoming a Catholic or not becoming a Catholic.

And if you want to know who said you were deceptive about Ben's becoming a Catholic, you need to turn in Ben Cole's direction about that, not mine.

Let me ask you another one Wade.

You published a post stating David Jones of SEBTS wrote an article that was later proven not to be from his hand in the least. Did you ever publicly apologize for that?

Wade Burleson said...

CB and BI Friends and Caner Defenders:

Would you respond to Thy Peace's concern? Please?

Thy Peace gives a link of one of Caner's students who says Caner spent "seven minutes proclaiming his innocence," but the Committee found him guilty and removed him as President. CB, you yourself say he is guilty, but Caner is proclaiming his innocence (if this student is to be believed).

What gives?

Anonymous said...

"I am saying there comes a time to leave it in the hands of God. I am saying this is no longer about holding a brother accountable."

He was never held accountable for 9 years. And he has still not been held accountale even though he wrote a book saying that public sins require public confession. Where is the public confession?

Are we to throw out the Epistles? God has given us His Word for exactly these situations. Yet, you say, do nothing.

That is not showing Caner mercy for his soul. I find it hard to believe so many SBC pastors take this so unseriously. It is nothing less than a sin of partiality.

Wade Burleson said...

CB,

If I remember correctly, the LINK at the Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood listed SEBTS David Jones as the author of the article I quoted. After my post, CBMW changed the link, and yes, I apologized for attributing the article to David Jones and explained why.

But let me suggest something to you. Deflecting questions about Caner to a questioning of my character, or changing the subject to Ben Cole (which has nothing to do with Ergun Caner), is an old, old debate tactic that smart people see right through.

Discuss the facts CB.

Finding yourself short on facts, please refrain from attacking your opponent.

It doesn't work.

Lydia said...

Wade,

You and I both know I am not talking about Ben's becoming a Catholic or not becoming a Catholic.

And if you want to know who said you were deceptive about Ben's becoming a Catholic, you need to turn in Ben Cole's direction about that, not mine.

Let me ask you another one Wade.

You published a post stating David Jones of SEBTS wrote an article that was later proven not to be from his hand in the least. Did you ever publicly apologize for that?

Mon Jun 28, 01:17:00 AM 2010

Typical tactic to change the subject.

CB, start a blog and put it on there. Maybe you can make Wade worse than Caner, there. But that still won't help Caner.

Wade Burleson said...

Lydia,

Great minds must think alike.

Smiling.

CB IS trying to deflect. I have no clue, whatsoever, of what CB is talking about. But, that is not unusual. I rarely, if ever, understand CB Scott.

CB Scott said...

Wade,

Let's do set the record straight. When Ergun publicly stated he had told things that were not true (He used the word "misspoke" I think) I stated that he had sinned. I think you can actually find my statement on one of Debbie's earlier comment threads.

And in truth Wade, I do not really know what "factual statements that are self-contradictory" means.

What I do know is that Ergun Caner was not exonerated. He was demoted. Liberty says he will be allowed to teach for one year.

I also know that it is wrong to continue to beat a guy down when he is finished.

I even knew that when I was a hired "bully" as you referenced just recently. And I certainly know it now.

Lastly, I was never part of the BI gang. Although, in general, I find them all to be fine fellows.

Lydia said...

"I also know that it is wrong to continue to beat a guy down when he is finished. "

CB, How can you say this when one of his own students says he spent 7 minutes talking about his innocence just the other day in her class? You can say she was lying and Caner isn't but many will find that hard to believe.

How can you say this when there is no corrected public statement from him about his lies? He needs to set the record straight. (And that will take time since there are so many)

Where do you see it stated by Liberty he will only teach for one year? Or, are you referring to one year contracts and assuming he is there for one year only?

CB Scott said...

Wade,

You are the great deflector.

That was your purpose with the Debbie comment. That is fine. I don't really care.

And you do well know of what I am speaking. You can deny that also. That is fine also. I don't care. We both, along with others, know the truth.

Lydia,

I have no desire to make Wade worse than Ergun. Wade and Ergun will write their own histories.

My only concern here was to ask Wade a question as to when all of this will end.

It seems that a pound of flesh is never enough for Wade.

CB Scott said...

Lydia,

I am not saying the student is lying. How would I know that? I don't.

What I do know is that there comes a time to let it go. And it just seems to me that now should be that time.

As to the one year statement; All I know is that Liberty gave him the coming school year in their printed statement. I saw nothing of the future beyond that and I know nothing more of the future for Ergun at Liberty after that year ends.

Darby Livingston said...

Many people in blogdom are asking those bloggers who are following the Caner fiasco when they will be satisfied and stop discussing the issue. For example, it seems to me that CB is suggesting it's like kicking a man when he's already down. Here's the problem with the question. It's being asked of the wrong people. There is one person who can end this and that is Ergun Caner. Why don't all those who are slamming the bloggers turn their guns on the actual one true culprit in all this? I have seen very few admissions that what Caner has done is even wrong. That's why the bloggers are up in arms. I don't think it's a vendetta about Calvinism. I think it's indignation about all that's wrong with western celebrity worship. CB, Caner is not down yet. He's never been down yet. He has repented of nothing, and since his sins are public, his repentance should be also.

Christiane said...

In certain quarters of Christianity, a 'confession', without true contrition, is meaningless.

Confessing that one has done something is NOT the same thing as having contrition for it.

Perhaps it is the same in the Southern Baptist denomination ?
If it is, that may explain the disconnect, where some do not see real signs of contrition from Caner, and therefore may be questioning the sincerity of his acceptance of responsibility for what he has done.

And others? Oh wow.
'thanking God that he has been exonerated'?
Hardly a sign there of public recognition of Caner's mea culpa.
In fact, quite the opposite.
When his own supporter's haven't seen signs of true contrition and are celebrating his 'exoneration', then no wonder others believe that he is not truly repentant.

You know, his 'supporters' are doing it wrong. I think they've been doing it wrong for a long while now.
Caner deserves the absolute best Christian counsel at this time, so that he has an opportunity to be reconciled to God AND to his whole Christian community.

CB Scott said...

Darby,

Let me ask you a question or two about this statement:

"CB, Caner is not down yet. He's never been down yet. He has repented of nothing, and since his sins are public, his repentance should be also."

Have you had contact with Ergun of late?

How do you know what state he is in at the present?

Darby,

I am not arguing guilt or innocence. Liberty has taken an action to demote Ergun. I don't know if anything like that has ever happened to you, but I assure you Ergun Caner is a broken man tonight.

I am not trying to defend Ergun here. I am simply saying there comes a time that the way of the high ground is to let go and move on.

Anonymous said...

"When his own supporter's haven't seen signs of true contrition and are celebrating his 'exoneration', then no wonder others believe that he is not truly repentant."

good point

Darby Livingston said...

CB,

I hope we do see a public response from Caner soon, but I am not aware of his condition right now. He might be truly broken, in which case, I'm guessing we'll see evidence at some point. I agree that this must be a terrible weekend for him and his family. I agree with you that this entire conversation is unpleasant. But that doesn't make it unworthy of having. God bless, CB. You've always struck me as a man of integrity, so I'm sure your comments here are with a true heart to see God glorified.

New BBC Open Forum said...

I had seen that list of LU rules and fines before. One big thing that jumped out at me was that "possession or consumption of alcoholic beverages" is listed on the same level as "abortion." So the bottle of rum that's currently in our pantry (which is used solely for cooking purposes) is on par with abortion. Unbelievable!

RRR said...

Wade said: "Anonymous,

Honestly, I would prefer to deal with Caner as a brother in Christ and bring him to public confession and repentance of his public sin than to do what the Apostle Paul suggests and turn him over to Satan.

Just my feelings."

You're not dealing with him as a brother. You continually bring his failures and weaknesses to light and then say that you want to deal with him in love as a brother. You're not convincing.

I'm thankful for the part you played in bringing this to light. I for one did comment on some blogs where people were apparently not aware of Ergun's failure to represent himself truthfully as well, so I certainly do not mean to criticize you for doing that.

You are not the Holy Spirit and you cannot bring him to public confession and repentance.

I'm not sure what your motive is and I'm not even asking for an answer because I don't think you can give a response that would justify what you're doing.

The guy has definitely been shone for what he is. Everyone has enough information now to decide what their position about it will be. God will not bless you for your continued obsession with this and you will not find any gratification or peace in it.

From your brother.

Jon L. Estes said...

I'm sure the first thing on EC's mind is to speak in the pulpit of one who has lashed out at him in print and allowed others to say, in print, ugly remarks about him. The demand that EC must comply to whatever judgment you think is appropriate for words he used... yet you turn a blind eye to many inappropriate words, in print, that have been hurled at EC from your blog site, comes across unbalanced in your gracious spirit.

Maybe you don't see it but there had been a high lack of grace spewed throughout the comment section of the blog you administer.

Send me a 500.00 finders fee for this offense. Oh, I forgot it is LU which has an honor code, not this blog.

gary dilworth said...

Peace is not just stopping the war. Peace is creating the righteousness that brings the two parties together in love. Peacemakers are those who not only call a truce, but a real peace where all is forgotten and they embrace one another. It is an aggressive good.
There's a difference between truce and peace. Truce just says you lay down your guns and you don't shoot for a while. That's the world's definition when everybody stops for that one glorious brief moment when we reload. That's truce. Peace is when the truth is known, the issue is settled, and the two parties embrace each other. Now some people think that peace is just stopping the war. Now some people may say well, I just want to make sure there's no conflict. I just want to kind of cover it up and stop the fighting. And you really by just approaching peace in that manner stopping any conflict, you may develop a situation far worse than you ever developed by letting it go on. Because you may eliminate any resolution at all. Drive it underground until it smolders and destroys both sides. For example, if two people are at war with each other, the thing to do is not separate them so they don't see each other. The thing to do is to bring them together so they can resolve what's the problem so they can come together in love and embrace each other and make it right. That's peace not truce.
The peace of the Bible does not evade issues. It never evades issues. The peace of the Bible is not peace at any price. It isn't a gloss. The peace of the Bible conquers the problem. You see the difference? It conquers that problem in the middle ground so that the two can come together. It builds a bridge to two sides. Sometimes it means struggle. Sometimes it means pain. Sometimes it means anguish. Sometimes it means a little more strife, but in the end, real peace can come.
-----
All from John MacArthur: Blessed are the Peacemakers

gary dilworth said...

Peace that ignores purity is not the peace that God talks about. In Hebrews 12:14 it says this and another word you must remember, "Follow peace with all men and holiness." In other words, you cannot divorce peace from holiness. You cannot divorce peace from purity. You cannot divorce peace from righteousness. Psalm 85:10 says, "Righteousness and peace have kissed each other." Where there is real peace, there is righteousness. Where there is real peace, there is holiness. Where there is real peace, there is purity, because that resolves the issue.
------
Ibid- MacArthur

Wade Burleson said...

RRR

Why is it every time I see RRR think of a Lionel Model Train and want to whistle like a locomotive?

Anonymous said...

Wade, good (and funny) word to CB! That shoe just feels so bad on the other foot, hey CB?

Thanks for the post.

Thy Peace said...

A Squirrel in Babylon > Lynchburg, We Have A Problem...

Tim Marsh said...

Pastor Wade,

In a previous post and a comment on this forum you mentioned that you would welcome Caner to Emmanuel if he repents. I would like to see that. However, I would like Caner to:

1. Voluntarily resign at Liberty. He no longer holds credibility in the eyes of students.

2. Tell his story. We need to know why Caner embellished or lied about his background. We need to know if others contributed to the celebrity Ergun Caner and his transformation from the Pastor Michael Caner.

3. We need to know if others are promoting this embellishing as learned behavior. Or we need to know what factors Caner felt that led to this.

Recently our community hosted a youth revival in which the speaker claimed that he had debated "top evolutionists on the subject of creation versus evolution and never lost a debate." He claimed that he led a science professor at a college to Christ. I googled all this and found no information on these debates or the conversion of this professor. I think that this embellishing is common behavior among evangelists.

Caner could do a world of good if he led us on the inside of this world, the rationale behind it and positively impact God's Kingdom by calling for integrity in the pulpit.

gary dilworth said...

Thy Peace,
I know the gift of links is not listed in the bible, but the gift of knowledge is, and I've wondered if you have it. You certainly bring alot of pertinent information to the table.

The student from LU that spoke of Caner's 7 minutes of innocence: did she speak of something that took place early this year on 'Day 1' of the theology class?

Thy Peace said...

My understanding of the student's post about Ergun Caner proclaiming his "innocence" is that it happened last week. The blog entry was Monday, 6/21/10. There are other blog entries for the rest of the days of last week.

Thy Peace said...

The really sad thing I have found in all this Ergun Caner fiasco is that LOTS of pastors and students and people in the pews lack discernment. This is the tragedy of this age. Lot of these people do know the meaning of "love", "correction", "repentance", ... What are they teaching in schools, universities and churches?

My gut feeling is when the end of time occurs, the Lord of Hosts will hold ALL the teachers to task for their "sloppy" work.

Thy Peace said...

Correction:

Lot of these people do not know the meaning of "love", "correction", "repentance", ... What are they teaching in schools, universities and churches?

Inkling said...

I'm not going to say anything about Caner's biography, because that's been talked to death. But did anybody else catch the huge whopper mentioned by the student of Caner's to whom Thy Peace linked? According to the student, Caner told the class that presuppositional apologetics and limited atonement are one and the same, and that evidential apologetics and general atonement are likewise one and the same. My jaw hit the floor when I read that -- can Caner, a man who supposedly has a terminal degree in the field of theology, really be that utterly clueless about basic apologetics? Does he really not understand the difference between apologetics and soteriology? Or is this just another form of dishonesty in service of ideology?

Wade Burleson said...

Tim Marsh,

Well stated.

Anonymous said...

"I'm sure the first thing on EC's mind is to speak in the pulpit of one who has lashed out at him in print and allowed others to say, in print, ugly remarks about him."

Strange position considering the demand for mercy from Caner defenders. One would think Caner would have mercy for his crtics. Or does that only work one way?

Wade Burleson said...

For some reason, folks seem to not understand in the BI world.

Grace and mercy are for the broken and humble.

Even God Himself said, "I resist the proud and give grace to the humble."

Anonymous said...

I am a Liberty Student.

There is a lot of favor shown to certain students, especially athletes when it comes to the Liberty Way. (i.e. athletes not being punished for drinking alchol, and deceipt).

I remember a friend of mine in my dorm had a problem with alcohol. We were able to get him help through a alchol abuse program, and were able to disciple him. Liberty found out about this, and we were all give 30 reprimands and a $500 fine because we did not "turn him in"

I pray that Caner will repent and ask for forgivness publicly. Alot of Liberty Students will extend grace to him for doing this.

B Nettles said...

Wade,
Isn't it interesting that the PGA and USGA expect (and enforce) and receive a higher level of integrity than most Christian institutions, denominations, and churches. They also have the highest level of grace.

Competitive golfers, amateur and professional, regularly call penalties on themselves, sometimes after finishing a round and sometimes resulting in disqualification from the tournament. But then, they go back out next tournament. They accept the consequences of breaking the rules, sometimes even when no one else same them commit the foul , then move on, having learned from it.

Also, contrast that with all other sports in which players are mostly (but certainly not exclusively) taught "get away with whatever the refs miss." How many defensive backs in football would call pass interference on themselves?

Interesting, the trouble Tiger got in when he left his golf integrity on the course.

What kind of golf do preachers play?

Former FBC Insider said...

Does the Honor Code mention anything about racial jokes?
I think Caner's practice of making fun of ethnic groups should be worth a few grand. Maybe we could send the fines directly to those he offended.

Anonymous said...

FBC Insider,

Liberty pays you $15 and you receive a Merit Badge.

Darby Livingston said...

"Grace and mercy are for the broken and humble.

Even God Himself said, "I resist the proud and give grace to the humble."

Good word, Wade. I think some mix up the idea of being humble (an attitude of the heart) and humbled (an external force put upon a person causing them to bow down). At the judgment, everyone will be humbled, but not all will be humble.

Bennett Willis said...

It is nice to know that it is Monday and nothing has changed--neither tactics, personalities nor opinions.

natamllc said...

Honestly, I think they have a bit of a dilemma with the cliche "do as I say, not as I do" when their leaders are caught with what they are saying is actually factual and self-contradictory!

I wonder if this might be a better cliche? "don't do as I say or as I do, do as Jesus says and does instead"

natamllc said...

Watchdog,

"...We could raise some serious revenue by charging people for their sins, and increase money for missionaries.

Where sin abounds, so much more does the revenue.
..."

I thought the RCC was already doing that?

Christiane said...

To the person 'NATAMLLE'/anonymous:


Please know that 1 Cor. 5 cannot be taken into consideration without reading also these words of St. Paul to the same Corinthians in 2 Cor.2:

"5
2 If anyone has caused pain, he has caused it not to me, but in some measure (not to exaggerate) to all of you.
6
This punishment by the majority is enough for such a person,
7
so that on the contrary you should forgive and encourage him instead, or else the person may be overwhelmed by excessive pain.
8
Therefore, I urge you to reaffirm your love for him.
9
For this is why I wrote, to know your proven character, whether you were obedient in everything.
10
Whomever you forgive anything, so do I. For indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for you in the presence of Christ,
11
so that we might not be taken advantage of by Satan, for we are not unaware of his purposes."


Extremely fundamentalist Christians sometimes quote 1 Cor. 5 without mentioning the connecting writings in 2 Cor. 2: 5-11.

The truth is, that St. Paul's writings were NOT 'divided' up into verses by him. So to be able to learn from St. Paul's writings, we must look at the tone of ALL of them that are related, not just isolate one section without seeing how it is affected by other salient sections.

If 1 Cor. 5 is read and applied without any recourse to 2 Cor. 2:5-11;
then we are not following the intent of St. Paul as inspired by the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Scriptures are protected by a certain integrity: to manipulate or to deny that integrity is not the purpose for which we were given these treasures.

natamllc said...

Wade,

am I permitted to respond to Christiane?

thanks
michael/natamllc

Thy Peace said...

My Utmost For His Highest [Oswald Chambers] > December 7th

REPENTANCE

"For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation." 2 Corinthians 7:10

Conviction of sin is best portrayed in the words -

"My sins, my sins, my Saviour,
How sad on Thee they fall."

Conviction of sin is one of the rarest things that ever strikes a man. It is the threshold of an understanding of God. Jesus Christ said that when the Holy Spirit came He would convict of sin, and when the Holy Spirit rouses a man's conscience and brings him into the presence of God, it is not his relationship with men that bothers him, but his relationship with God - "against Thee, Thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in Thy sight." The marvels of conviction of sin, forgiveness, and holiness are so interwoven that it is only the forgiven man who is the holy man, he proves he is forgiven by being the opposite to what he was, by God's grace. Repentance always brings a man to this point: I have sinned. The surest sign that God is at work is when a man says that and means it. Anything less than this is remorse for having made blunders, the reflex action of disgust at himself.

The entrance into the Kingdom is through the panging pains of repentance crashing into a man's respectable goodness; then the Holy Ghost, Who produces these agonies, begins the formation of the Son of God in the life. The new life will manifest itself in conscious repentance and unconscious holiness, never the other way about. The bedrock of Christianity is repentance. Strictly speaking, a man cannot repent when he chooses; repentance is a gift of God. The old Puritans used to pray for "the gift of tears." If ever you cease to know the virtue of repentance, you are in darkness. Examine yourself and see if you have forgotten how to be sorry.

Wade Burleson said...

Michael,

? Sure. Since when did anyone need my permission? :)

"Granting permission" is the antithesis of freedom, and contrary to every principle I cherish.

Jon L. Estes said...

"? Sure. Since when did anyone need my permission? :)

"Granting permission" is the antithesis of freedom, and contrary to every principle I cherish."

I'm sure your kids would have wished you cherished this principle more for them as they were growing up?

;-)

natamllc said...

Wade,

I am new to commenting on your blog and I don't want to assume to much.

If I cross over a line then, I guess freedom reigns and comments will rain down on my head! :)

I also would note your comment earlier about my post reproduced here from an anonymous commenter from the other combox and thread, Baghdad Bob:

"...Honestly, I would prefer to deal with Caner as a brother in Christ and bring him to public confession and repentance of his public sin than to do what the Apostle Paul suggests and turn him over to Satan.

Just my feelings.
"

You stated a position that would be different than mine and I respect that without knowing just how thick your skin is and how soft your heart is, even though some in here seem to think it is thin and thick not thick and thin! :)

With that, I do appreciate Christiane's comment.

I am not sure what her point is?

If she could rephrase it and uncover more of her motive for expanding on my rationale I might be able to respond appropriately?

With that then, I did not develop my position further and in one sense, not really knowing my way of reasoning and thinking and just how thick my skin is and soft my heart is, you might conclude what I think Christiane has concluded?

What is the difference between the "unnamed" man in the Corinthian lesson and Hymenaeus, Alexander and Philetus lesson?

Why are these stories in the Bible?

Well, as with the first man and with Hymenaeus and Alexander, they were turned over to Satan. Philetus was mentioned with Hymenaeus later on together in another epistle and Paul also mentioned Alexander again in even another of his epistles, too. I can assume Paul was intent on turning Philetus over to Satan as well for joining with Hymenaeus in blaspheme?

We learn, as Christiane points out, [which wasn't far from my thinking when posting over at the Baghdad Bob thread], that the unnamed man did repent and was so fruitful in repentance the Church was then encouraged to receive him back to "full" fellowship and communion. He was restored! It was the Church, then, that seemed to have trouble receiving him back into fellowship?

That was not the case for the others as Paul continued writing about them in later epistles.

The purpose of turning someone over to Satan as a remedy is that it seems to "quicken" repentance for the "True Believer" such as was the unnamed man's case.

It also shows True Believers, who are personally apart of the process of bringing correction to someone, that someone is not a True Believer willing to repent, as the Scripture indicates was the case with Hymenaeus, Alexander and Philetus.

This gives me pause to think, turning someone over to Satan is not a bad idea, rather it is a good idea, when appropriate.

The unnamed man, it seems, was benefited by that sort of discipline while Hymenaeus, Alexander and Philetus were shown to be false brethren in the midst of the thriving, lively Church of their day?

I believe in the case of Dr. Caner, if we do not see something happen quickly enough, close to or exactly as you have laid out above, as a sign of true contrition and the fruit of repentance, we might want to pray together in agreement, those who are so led, and turn Dr. Caner over to Satan so he can teach him to not lie? Until one or the other fact comes clear to us, the True Church, I am in doubts Dr. Caner is a brother? Either he is a true brother and now repentant or he is of the devil, unrepentant and has no intention of speaking the truth of the Truth as all True Believers should and must on occasion?

Well, that's the way I feel about it.

Wade Burleson said...

natamllc,

Well reasoned comment. You've given us all food for thought. I'm non-committal on doing such a thing, but I can sure see your perspective and trust it comes from a heart of love.

Richard said...

Natamllc,

Your reading of 1Cor5 is correct--that guy was turned to Satan, but later restores to fellowship. He was saved in when turned to Satan. It is always refreshing to see a serious wrestling to apply Scripture correctly.

Lydia said...

Your reading of 1Cor5 is correct--that guy was turned to Satan, but later restores to fellowship. He was saved in when turned to Satan. It is always refreshing to see a serious wrestling to apply Scripture correctly.

Mon Jun 28, 04:04:00 PM 2010

What exactly does everyone think
being 'turned over to Satan' means?

Anonymous said...

Deliver this man to Satan: once the sinner is expelled from the church, the sphere of Jesus' lordship and victory over sin, he will be in the region outside over which Satan is still master. For the destruction of his flesh: the purpose of the penalty is medicinal: through affliction, sin's grip over him may be destroyed and the path to repentance and reunion laid open. With Paul's instructions for an excommunication ceremony here, contrast his recommendations for the reconciliation of a sinner in 2 Cor 2:5-11.

Anonymous said...

Wade, your 940 AM comment, "Why is it every time I see RRR think of a Lionel Model Train and want to whistle like a locomotive?" -

The PRR (Pennsylvania Railroad system) was called the "Standard of the World" in almost every category.

Certainly what we have here by Caner and his sycophants embodies what is, actually, the Standard of the World.

The responses by his friends on this site - trying to score debating points oh how clever - compare with the famous "what is, is?" by a previous President.

The simple fact is he lied and he was caught. You know that was not his plan at the onset. The best laid plans of mice and men...

We expect that of our politicians and business people, but are disappointed when it is done by the self appointed anointed.

Lying and fabricating narratives are the standards of the world.

Bob Kellner

Thy Peace said...

ABP News > After investigation into claims, Liberty University demotes Ergun Caner

Anonymous said...

Ergun's brother Emir is President of Truett-McConnell Collge in Cleveland, GA, a Georgia Baptist Institution. It will be interesting to see if TMC reprimands Emir for not correcting his brother's "factual statements that are self-contradictory". My guess is ... it ain't gonna happen.

IrishTexan said...

natamllc,

I've seen church discipline personally carried-out twice, in both cases the excommunicated member was unrepentant then and is still to this day.

I've also seen a situation that got to the point of the church officially calling a member to repentance and the offending member repenting of said sin. That same member is now thriving and has been fully accepted.

I know of a situation where a man was unrepentant for close to 20 year, saw his sin, repented of his sins and was forgiven, even after all those years.

In every case the subject of "church discipline" was brought up as a very last measure of resort and was only entered in to with much sorrow, mourning and prayerful hope. And even once the "process" started, if there was a simple glimmer of possibility of the offending member turning from his/her sin, the process was halted and more time was taken. The idea of church discipline, while necessary (and ultimately good for those who DO repent out of it) is in many ways an evil necessity of an evil world.

Flat out, it sucks. For everyone involved.

As such, every effort and opportunity is given to a person who is unrepentant and then more opportunity is given. The idea of "giving someone over to Satan" is a terrible (while sometimes necessary) consequence of human sin, and it should only be done in the utmost humility, sorrow, sobriety, seriousness and ultimately hopefulness in the power of Christ's Redemption and Work on the Cross.

All that to say, natamllc, that I agree with your assessment, although a further definition of the term "quickly" (as it is applied to public repentance ala the 1 Cor. 5 situation) would be welcome.

Bennett Willis said...

I wonder when Baptist Press is going to say anything about EC's problems? The most recent date that turns up when you search for Caner seems to be several months old.

Anonymous said...

Isn't this kinda like "the selling of indulgences"?

I mean think about it, you give Liberty money and the "pronounce you forgiven"?

pastorbillm

natamllc said...

Irish,

I would quickly respond by saying, "in the person's lifetime and certainly before they would die in their sins". Some go a long time before true repentance comes forth, as you have indicated.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
2Pe 3:11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn!
2Pe 3:13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.


Seeing Paul wrote his epistles around 55-57 a.d., one would assume the effects began affecting the unnamed man rather soon after his encounters with Satan were beyond the norms we all have to encounter, maybe within a couple two or three months on the short side and a couple of years on the long side?

The word quickly is turning out to be a rather long period of time for me since I am going to paste a verse where the word quickly, it seems mostly likely, is implied differently:


Rev 22:12 (KJV) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.


How long is soon? Is it not quick enough, quickly? Soon?

And, by the way, for Dr. Caner, 9 years of being deceitful with everyone seems like a quick blink of the eye in the eternal light of being, does it not? But, nine years of lying seems a bit long for me, just as one nanosecond of being in the lake of fire does too?

For the Elect saints, this is what we wait for:

Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

IrishTexan said...

natamllc,

Thanks for the clarification. Again, I'm in agreement with you, I think. No matter how you cut it, such situations are hard. Some upon whom church discipline is carried out are so sensitive to sin that once they really realize that their sin is about to have some major repercussions, they come running back and never do such a thing again. For some, this kind of public discipline simply hardens them in their sin, and they never come back. I don't know myself how to judge the whens and hows of such situations. The Spirit's supplied wisdom is vital.

Patience and humility seem to be the order of the day, but still, sooner (or later), enough becomes enough, and action must be taken.

Anonymous said...

2 Peter 3:9

"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

as some understand 'slowness'

Anonymous said...

patience and humility ?
Oh, that's right, Paul said he was the 'worst of sinners'

go figure

Anonymous said...

so who's got the authority to say 'enough is enough'?

who calls the shots?

Richard said...

Lydia,

It is impossible for Satan to do anything to a believer unless God permits it (e.g., Job & suffering for blessing). There are certain cases where God does permit it, but this would only be in cases where the justice was fair all the way around.

“to deliver" in a point of time

"for the destruction of the flesh,” here is a believer who is so far out of line that God is going to take him out of the world before his time. He sinned unto death (physical death as most severe discipline of believer; Saul is one example in OT; also Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5).

The flesh does not refer to the sin nature but to the human body. Once the flesh, the human body, has been destroyed the soul and the spirit will enter into the presence of the Lord.

“that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord,” he doesn’t lose his salvation.

The day of the Lord here refers to the Second Advent. The word ‘saved’ means to be delivered--at the day of the resurrection of the body. This guy will receive a resurrection body like all other believers.

Anonymous said...

the off campus LU kids drink like crazy. Everyone in the community knows about it...seems everyone but LU.

Thy Peace said...

This sermon is very appropriate to this discussion:

Series in "I John: The Christian and Complete Joy > #25. The Sin that Leads to Death (I John 5:16-17)

Marco Vasile said...

Interesting that the Honor Code puts abortion and possession of alcohol in the same category.

RRR said...

"Wade Burleson said...
RRR

Why is it every time I see RRR think of a Lionel Model Train and want to whistle like a locomotive?"

I dunno. Maybe you're like me and just like old trains.

Thy Peace said...

CRBC Pastoral Blog [Tom Chantry] > A Declaration from Liberty

The Ergun Caner's of the world are not going away because one of them was caught. The peddlers of falsehood will continue to plague the church. They can only be thwarted when we stop exalting talented ministers without regard for truth or character, when we demand that preachers give us Christ and the Scriptures rather than anecdotes and jokes, when we recover a sense of the glory of God in worship and put away our crass desire for entertainment, and when we trust God to give growth to the church rather than put our faith in men and programs.

Dr. James Willingham said...

The more you stir a cow pile, the more it stinks. Just think what it would mean, if we went back in history to examine every cow pile. You can find a cow pile in practically every one's past and plenty even in the present. The situation regarding Dr. Caner has been identified. The ones immediately affected have dealt with it as they see fit. Not every one is going to be satisfied. But if you wish we can go back and dig up the bones of David (if they still exist) and hassle over his adultery with Bathsheba and his murder of Uriah the Hittite. But God forgave him, and I really wouldn't want to try and stir up somethng God forgave. Look who might take offense. Some things will continue to sift out over Dr. Caner, but I think it is wiser to move on. After all, we all suffer when a brother fails.

Anonymous said...

"Moving on"
is that the same as reconciliation and renewal?

so easy, just 'move on', walk away from the trouble and 'fogedaboutit'
Problem is: what about NEXT time, and the time after, and the time after that?

Why not face it.
And sort it out, even though it's difficult to do? Nah . . . that's too hard. No patience for that.

Let's show the watching Islamic world how we can bury our heads in the sand. see no evil hear no evil speak no evil
cool

Anonymous said...

CB wants Wade and others to get off Caner's back, thinking he's had enough. Thank goodness that hasn't happened yet, it shouldn't stop until Caner makes a public confession or is evicted from even his professorship.

But this thread should not let up, not because of Caner, but because of the open deception of SBC Today and Liberty University. We should be demanding repentance from SBC Today for claiming deceptively that Caner has been exonerated and Liberty should repent from not calling lies, lies, trying to mislead us, in the same manner as Caner, to make us think his lies were not lies.

I guess the former pastor of Two Rivers, who teaches now at Liberty, didn't lie either. And my former pastor, who speaks sometimes at Liberty, didn't lie when he said the church ended $1500in the black, when they had $50k in cash, but $129k in short-term Accounts Payable.

It seems that Liberty is becoming a liar-magnet for misunderstood,"ministers," who have been making, "self-contratictory misstatements."

Tom Kelley said...

FBC Jax Watchdog said...
Wade - I rather like the idea of fines.

We should try that in the SBC churches.

We could raise some serious revenue by charging people for their sins, and increase money for missionaries.

Where sin abounds, so much more does the revenue.

What would we charge for critical blogging?

Mon Jun 28, 12:35:00 AM 2010


Paging Dr. Tetzel!

Rex Ray said...

The Holy Spirit dwells within the heart of every Christian. Many have said if they believe like Baptists (once saved always saved) they would get saved and live like the devil.

For a Christian to live like the devil would grieve the Holy Spirit so much the Christian could NOT stand the torment and agony and be happy.

For someone to remain happy while lying many years tells me they have NOT been grieving the Holy Spirit. Nuff said.

BTW, the Baptist Standard reported there is an overabundance of preachers (about two for ever church) in many denominations including Baptists.

Makes you wonder why God is calling all these people if there is no place to serve. Or could it be they are calling themselves?

“…I never knew you; depart from me…” (Matthew 7:23)

Anonymous said...

“I am familiar with the slanderous charges that have been made against Dr. Ergun Caner generated by some Muslim groups and other extremists. I have looked into the matter, talking with Ergun and other principal parties at Liberty, and am convinced that the charges are libelous.”

-- Dr. Norman Geisler

Richard said...

Anonymous,

Is it all ecclesiastical dirty politics?

Michael said...

Anonymous:

Are you posting the Geisler quote to let us know your conviction or is it sarcasm?

Richard said...

Michael,

Geisler is a good scholar. But by making this kind of statement he just shows his ulterior motive by twisting facts for personal gain.

Some, like Paige Patterson [Richard Land also], who was instrumental in EC went to Libery is 'wiser' and keep their mouths shut for safety's sake. It is just two sides of the same coin. It is just playing Pilate's political strategy--win win cowardly politics.

Anonymous said...

Are you posting the Geisler quote to let us know your conviction or is it sarcasm?

Tue Jun 29, 11:31:00 AM 2010

So, the person who posts Geisler's comment about Caner is the problem. Can you explain to me how that works?

Pastor Bobby T said...

I truly mean it when I say you and your ability to come with stuff (GOOD STUFF by the way) and put that stuff into writing is incredible. This is an amazing column/blog that shows great insight and knowledge and genius. I still say we ought to elect you as the next SBC President -- although it will have to be in Phoenix this time and not Orlando as was the case the last time I suggested it!

Michael said...

Anonymous:

"So, the person who posts Geisler's comment about Caner is the problem. Can you explain to me how that works?"

Can you show me where I said anyone was the problem? I simply asked an honest question, not knowing whether it was a dig at Geisler's comment or it was posted to say someone with credibility believes in his innocence.

Touchy, touchy.

Anonymous said...

I have kept up with all the details of this story, but has any word been heard from Ergun's brother, Emir Caner? Emir serves as president of Truett-McConnel, a Baptist affliated college. Emir had to at least know that the stories his brother was telling were fictitious. Did he or has he spoken out about this?

Michael A. Jordan, Pastor
Mount Vernon Baptist Church, Axton, VA

Anonymous said...

My comment should read "I have NOT kept up with all the details of this story."

Michael A. Jordan

Wade Burleson said...

Michael,

I have not heard.

I am sure Emir is in a pretty tough spot himself.

Thy Peace said...

Alpha & Omega Ministries Apologetics Blog [James White] > Those Who Live in Another Reality

But when I read this on Norman Geisler's Facebook page, I was left without words (briefly, anyway):

Norman Geisler An extensive independent investigation has exonerated Dr. Ergun Caner of all the false charges made against him by extreme Muslims and others and has been retained as a Professor at Liberty University. In spite of a few misstatements (which we all make and he has corrected), nothing has diminished his testimony and orthodoxy as one of the great Christian voices of our time. I totally support him.

Bliss Spillar said...

I am currently serving as a Resident Director at LU. One of my responsibilities is to assign reprimands to students upon infractions. You are totally off on how many Reprimands Caner would have received and need to do more research before speaking out in ignorance.

Also as far as Christians needing an honor code with fines, dont forget that we are an institution and that just with any institution there are rules, boundaries and consequences if you disobey those. Those rules are placed there for young students who lack a world view and the discernment or wisdom to make good choices. If you disagree with this then dont place rules for your children and let them do whatever they want otherwise you are simply a hypocrite.

Some of you are just getting off on another Christian who has failed and are acting like the religious leaders that Christ himself called out and mocked. Where is the grace?

Even if you want to tear into him and into LU that is fine, that is between you and God. BUT... You had just better be sure that before God you are praying for Dr. Caner to seek healing, praying for Liberty to seek honesty, praying for the Body of Christ more than you are criticizing. If not than you are not better than wolves among the flock. Sheep need to be shepherd, goats need to be instructed and wolves need to be shot.

Anonymous said...

Baseball Managers, Ergun Caner and Moving On: http://wp.me/p6Lea-5X

Lydia said...

"Also as far as Christians needing an honor code with fines, dont forget that we are an institution and that just with any institution there are rules, boundaries and consequences if you disobey those. Those rules are placed there for young students who lack a world view and the discernment or wisdom to make good choices."

So, for Caner, the President, it is a normal failing and he does not need to pay a fine for breaking the honor code? But for young students, it is different?

Is that your logic?

Joshua said...

CB Scott,
I do not think that Wade should leave this man alone until he rightly repents of his deception. Remember, the father of lies is the devil. You yourself must admit that it is very very odd that this man can only come up with "misstatements" as an explanation for his lies. That is it: it is a lie. Therefore, the truth is hidden. Therefore, what is he hiding? Therefore, should such a man who hides the truth of his life, and tags it using a misnomer, be allowed to continue in shepherding God's children? Indeed not! That will only result in them becoming prey for the hungry ravenous wolves! I applaud Wade for his work here! It is a powerful voice that will come down so hard upon Liberty and Ergon Caner that the only thing to result will be safety for the sheep of God from this liar. That is what it is about here—protection and guiding of the sheep.

A servant granted repentance for God's glory,
Joshua

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