"I went to Jerusalem to become acquainted (Gk. istoria) with Cephas" - Paul's words from Galatians 1:18.

Experts in Islam? Is Emir Caner Complicit in Brother Ergun Caner's Embellishments?

On Saturday, February 20, 2010, I received a call from Southern Baptist Tim Guthrie. I was at home working on a manuscript for a new book. Tim's voice seemed to convey that he was in a state of panic. He told me that Dr. Ergun Caner, President of Liberty Seminary was in serious physical jeopardy because of a blogpost written by one of my church members, Debbie Kaufman. I was unaware of Debbie's post, but because of Tim's words, I was obviously concerned. I asked Tim how Ergun's family or life was in danger because of what Debbie had written. He essentially said that Muslims would like to harm Dr. Caner and/or his family, and that Debbie's post made Dr. Caner a target. I told Tim that I would immediately read Debbie's post, and if there was a problem, I assured him that I would ask her to remove it at once.

I went to Debbie's site and read the blogpost in question. Frankly, after reading it, I was shocked. Not at what Debbie had written, but at the phone call from Tim calling upon me to have her remove it. Debbie's post simply asked questions of Dr. Ergun Caner, questions that arose in Debbie's mind after listening to Dr. Caner's own words while he was speaking. Rather than simply answering her questions, it seemed to me that the friends of Dr. Caner were circling the wagons and attacking those who asked uncomfortable questions about discrepancies in Dr. Caner's background. My response to Tim Guthrie's request that I make Debbie remove her blogpost can be read in Comment #26. It's revealing to read what I wrote some two months ago, the very morning I first learned about issues with Ergun Caner (Edit: I should have said in the preceding sentence, ...."the very morning I first had confirmed that there were legitimate issues with Dr. Caner's Muslim background". It has accurately been pointed out in the comment section that I actually learned of Ergun's "alleged" deception two days earlier, on February 18th. Debbie's questions in her post, with actual links to videos and bios, confirmed there were legitimate issues). Later, I received additional phone calls, as did my father, who would eventually hear from Dr. Ergun Caner himself. It was obvious that some people were very upset. In the end, Debbie's blog post was not removed, nor should it have been.

For several weeks after that fateful Saturday, I wrote nothing about Dr. Caner. But after taking time to read many online resources, personally watching videos of Dr. Caner speaking, reading comments and emails from people who knew Dr. Caner prior to 2001, and then looking more closely at Dr. Caner's claim that Dr. Jerry Rankin is a heretic, I became troubled about the Caner issue on two fronts:

(1). Why was Dr. Caner misleading people about the degree of his involvement in Islam, his educational degrees, the number of his alleged "debates" with Muslims, and other things that directly relate to his ongoing ministry as "the" expert on Islam within the Southern Baptist Convention?

(2). Is there wisdom in deeming the "expert" in Islam for the Southern Baptist Convention a man with unreconciled discrepancies in his own talks, biographical data, and alleged "debates" with Muslims when there are dozens of highly qualified and competent International Mission Board missionaries who have been on the front lines of evangelism to Muslims for decades? Why do we make an icon of celebrity instead of seeing as the true heroes of the SBC our front line missionaries in Muslim countries?

The notion that there are no integrity issues that need addressed in Ergun Caner's background is ludicrous. The evidence is irrefutable. Only sychophants and ingnoramuses in the Southern Baptist Convention will deny that there is a problem. Likewise, however, Southern Baptists will be quick to forgive a man (or men) who simply say, "Look, at one time I embellished my academic credentials, the depth of my Muslim upbringing, and the number of "debates" I've held with Muslims around the world. I seek the forgiveness of those I have intentionally misled, and promise to speak the truth about my past from this point forward."

But, there is another issue that has been nagging at me since shortly after that phone call to my home last February. Ergun Caner has a couple of younger brothers. One of them, Dr. Emir Caner, President of Truett-McConnell, in Cleveland, Georgia is pretty high profile. Does Emir know of his brother's deception? Has Emir participated in the embellishments? Or, has Emir tried to correct his older brother?

Someone might ask, "But why is this an issue?" Well, both brothers are placing themselves as the resident experts of Islam for the Southern Baptist Convention, and both brothers have profited from speaking engagements on the subject. It would seem to me that one of the reasons the wagons are being circled so tightly by those who wish to protect the Caners is because there is so much at stake. Some pretty high profile people have pushed the Caners to the top of the academic world and the speaking circuit of the SBC. If the Caners' integrity is in question, either Ergun's or both Ergun's and Emir's, then there will be some pretty embarrassed high profile Southern Baptists.

This week I received a letter that details either explicit approval and/or illicit endorsement of Ergun's deception by his brother Emir. The letter is posted below, with sources unimbedded.

BEGINNING OF LETTER ....

Emir has been sitting quietly by, while his brother, often in his presence, has made public claims of being born in Istanbul, raised as a wahhabi and a jihadist without ever bothering to object. Emir knew that his brother was spinning a fantastic tale, yet it seems as long as he was also profiting from it, he was happy to go along for the ride.

There were times, though, when Emir ventured into the waters of overt deception himself. Consider Emir’s testimony as provided on his own website http://www.blogger.com/www.emircaner.com

"Imagine being raised with a father who was a muazzin (sic), one who went to the minaret and did the call to prayer. He is the one who melodiously called out 'Allahu Akbar, Allahu Akbar, God is great! God is great! Come to prayer, come to prayer.'So, we would go to our mosque and would be taught from the Qur'an. We would have our sort of a madras (sic), our Islamic school in which we would have our teachers who would teach us the verses of the Qur'an, the surahs.And our father was not merely a leader within the mosque. He was one of the prominent leaders within the mosque. He was an architect of the mosque. In fact,there he built a mosque as being an engineer himself and an architect. This was the family where we were raised." (Source: Online. Available from Internet, www.EmirCaner.com, "Recent Videos: Dr. Caner's Journey, Part 1," accessed 23 February 2010)

Emir's story sounds heroic and compelling, but under closer scrutiny reveals halftruths, shaded truths, and calculated deceptions in his testimony.

1. Emir was not “raised with a father” at all. He was raised with a mother, a grandmother, and two brothers. According to court divorce records filed in April 1978, Emir’s parents had been “living separate and apart for more than two years.” This means, Emir’s father was out of the house from the time he was only five years old. (Source: Judge George W. Twyford, “Divorce decree, July 1974, In the Court of Common Pleas Franklin County, Ohio.” Online. Available from the Internet at http://www.witnessesuntome.com/caner/caner‐decree‐web.pdf, cited 10 April 2010).

Emir’s father, Acar, was absent from Ergun and Emir’s home, and, in fact, had already remarried by 1977 when Emir was 6 or 7 years old and was now raising a new family. (Source: “DEATHS AND FUNERALS” section of the Columbus Dispatch, p. 7G).

2. Emir's father was not “a muezzin,” at least not as Emir claimed. The Islamic Center on Broad Street where the Caners claim to have worshipped each weekend had no muezzin. The president of the Islamic Center, Rustum Ali,said, "We had no muezzin. We simply asked whoever was around to call everyone to prayer." (Source: Phone conversation with Rustum Ali, president of the Islamic Center, the Islamic Foundation of Central Ohio, on 23 February 2010).

3. Despite Emir’s colorful imaginings, even if his father had been a muezzin, he could not have gone “to the minaret” because the Caners’ place of worship had no minaret. It was an old converted mansion constructed in 1903. According to Islamic Center president, Rustum Ali, Columbus city ordinances would not allow the construction of a minaret because the building was a historic site.

4. The boys never attended a “madras” (sic) or Islamic school as Emir claims,because the Islamic Center at 1425 E. Broad Street, had no “madrasa,” or “Islamic school.” Again, quoting the president of the Center, “We have never had a madrasa, only Sunday Sabbath School from 11 am to 1 pm. There we would teach the children how to pray, about our faith, and so forth.” (Source: In a phone conversation with Islamic Foundation president, Rustum Ali, the president said, “Oh no, we never had a madrasa in our building. All we had was Sunday Sabbath School from 11 to 1 pm, to teach the children how to pray.” Phone conversation, 23 February 2010).

5. Emir strains to support Ergun's claim that his father, Acar, built the Islamic Center on Broad Street, but perhaps knowing that this is not true, he modifies the testimony slightly to say that, "he (Acar) built a mosque." In fact, the Islamic Center, the Islamic Foundation on Broad Street was constructed in 1903, more than half a century before Acar arrived in Ohio.

6. The statement, "This was the way our family was raised," caps off the deception. There was no muezzin, there was no minaret, their parents had already divorced and, by the time Emir was six or seven years old, his father had already remarried and started a new family. Were the story not crafted for such self‐serving purposes, one might actually feel sympathy for the Caner brothers.

Emir also appears to have fabricated stories about his witnessing escapades. In a March 2004 article in Christianity Today, Emir casually says, “I speak weekly to American Muslims who say they realize Islam isn't the way to heaven.” (Source: Emir Caner to Corrie Cutrer in “The Muslim Next Door,” Christianity Today, March 2004. Online. Available on the Internet at http://www.christianitytoday.com/tcw/2004/marapr/6.44.html cited 23 February 2010)

Could this be an exaggeration? When asked about his converts and fruit from the Muslim world in 2005, Emir Caner admitted to the author, “I am not an evangelist. I am not a church planter. I am an academic.” This was his response to the question, “What methods are you using to share the gospel with Muslims and start new churches?”

In 2005, a year after purportedly speaking “weekly to American Muslims who say they realize Islam isn’t the way to heaven,” Emir could point to no converts whatsoever.

The truth is, Emir appears to spend virtually all of his time either in his study writing books, or surrounded by Christians, to whom he sells the books. Despite Ergun’s claim, with Emir’s silent consent, that the two of them have debated Muslims all over the world, there is no evidence whatsoever to support this claim.

While Emir doesn’t refute his brother’s claims, neither does he buttress them on his own extensive biographical websites (http://www.emircaner.com/). Nonethless, Emir has managed to gain a reputation among at least one of his peers, Dr. Keith Eitel of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, for bold confrontational witness to Muslims. According to the SBC Today BLOG, Keith Eitel is quoted as having said, that Emir Caner is a bold and confrontational witness in the mosque:

SBC Today: ‘In witnessing to Muslims, I know that when your brother got inaugurated down at Truett McConnell, Dr. Eitel talked about your brother's unique witnessing method. He would walk into a mosque and find the iman (sic) and say, 'I am an infidel!' Is that the kind of mission emphasis that you guys do at Liberty also?"

Ergun made no disclaimers, instead affirming his brother’s alleged bold technique: “I have no problem with using anything like that." (Source: Unnamed host of SBC Today in conversation with Ergun Caner on SBC Today 3 Feb 2010. Online. Available on the Internet at http://sbctoday.com/2010/02/03/podcast‐episode‐21/  accessed 8 February 2010).
So the reserved academic has embellished his reputation as one who “walk(s) into a mosque and find(s) the imam” to declare to him, “I am an infidel!” This certainly doesn’t mesh with what he told the author in 2005 when asked about the fruit of his evangelism efforts. Nor does it jibe with the first‐hand experience of IMB missionaries in Chiang Mai, Thailand who took a course on Islam under Emir Caner in the summer of 2009.

A couple of IMB missionaries made it a point to go with Emir so that they could learn how he conducted Muslim evangelism. The following information came from one of those missionary students (Source: Email from one of Emir Caner’s students from Caner’s summer class on Islam in Chiang Mai, Thailand in 2009. Subject: “RE: Emir's use of the Q” dated 9 February 2010).

1. Emir certainly did not, as the SBC Today podcast boasts, walk into the mosque, find the imam, and announce, "I am an infidel."

2. The student reported that Emir probably used the Qur’an more than the imb students did. But Emir used it to try and start an apologetic debate that he believed would destroy the Qur'an and win the contest. The IMB students used the Qur’an to try and bridge the Muslims into the gospel, similar to the Camel method. One of the IMB personnel "asked him (Emir) the question, ‘What do I do if a Muslim says he doesn’t know the Qur'an and that I should go talk to the Imam? Can I show it to him?’(Emir's)

Answer from Emir Caner: “I would walk them through the Qur'an and ask questions they can’t handle”

"He mentioned he frequently would ask the Muslims to give him a section of the Qur'an to read and he would give them a section of the Bible to read and they would agree to come back together later to discuss it."

3. Though Emir had criticized IMB missionary efforts at contextualization for being a compromise with the false religion of Islam, Emir made his own cultural accommodations to the mosque, by veiling his wife, keeping her out of the prayer room, and referencing Qur'anic verses to initiate conversations with Muslim worshippers. When asked about this, Emir said these accommodations were not bridges (which he had condemned), but rather cultural "points of contact." "Points of contact" appears to be Caner's politically correct substitute for what Camel practitioners call "bridges."

4. Emir admitted to his students that though his approach can lead into the gospel it seldom does. According to two different IMB missionaries who ventured into the mosque with Caner, Emir never got to the gospel in his attempt at apologetic debate.

5. (During his time speaking) “he [Caner] was not able to lead into a Gospel presentation or attempt to leave them a tract or Injil (New Testament) using his approach at either place."

6. Emir said that his ministry to Muslims is to accept referrals from other believers who have been sharing with Muslims that are already seekers, and then expose them to the lies from a former insider's point of view. He says his is not an evangelistic or apostolic ministry (Source: Email correspondence from “anonymous IMB missionary to the author, 9 February 2010)

Given these accounts of Emir’s awkward and ineffective witness to Muslims in Thailand, it is difficult to imagine Emir Caner ever walking into a mosque, seeking out the imam and declaring, “I am an infidel!”

Emir Caner may be a more cautious fake than his boisterous brother, but he is a fake nonetheless. Like his brother, he has used his fraudulent notoriety to elevate his own celebrity and currency within the Evangelical world, while undermining and attacking legitimate Christian witnesses to Muslims both in America and around the world.

END OF LETTER ...

One might expect that self-proclaimed experts in Islam, men like the Caner brothers, would offer criticisms of the International Mission Board and President Jerry Rankin for the Southern Baptist missionary work that has been taking place among Muslims around the world for the past several decades. But those criticisms are deeply ironic when they are attached with a claim that the IMB President is a heretic and a liar. One can hope that the majority of Southern Baptists will reject the ungodly emphasis on celebrity, star power and the errors associated with it, and remain consistent with our emphasis on both biblical and personal truth.

We'll see.

In His Grace,

Wade Burleson

Postscript: One of Emir's friends, a fellow pastor in the SBC, has called me and spoken highly of Emir's evangelism to Muslims. He told me that two young women in his church, former Muslims, were converted to Christ through the patient evangelism of Emir Caner. I believe this pastor is telling the truth, and in fairness to Dr. Emir Caner, wanted to balance out the questions raised by the missionary in the letter with the report of this pastor.

To the pastor's credit, he too, voiced hope that the questions being raised regarding discrepancies in the Caner brothers' background will be satisfactorily answered in the near future, but felt compelled to rebut the suggestion that Emir Caner has no practical experience in leading Muslims to faith in Christ.

156 comments:

Wade Burleson said...

I have chosen to leave comments open and unmoderated. Please check your spirit before you press SEND.

Thy Peace said...

I would sincerely encourage the Caner's brothers to confess and repent and seek the forgiveness of their brothers and sisters in Christ, whom they have mislead about their past status of being a devout muslim and their embellishments.

Christians are very forgiving people.

It would be to the Caner's brothers advantage to come clean and make a new start. There is nothing wrong in confession and repentance, with a change of heart from now on.

If they were to do this sincerely, this would go a long ways in reinvigorating the evangelical community and The Spirit would move mightily.

Thy Peace said...

VTM Bottomline [Paul Burleson] > AN OPEN LETTER TO E.C. [APRIL 16, 2010].

Brent Hobbs said...

Thanks for continuing to follow up on this, Wade. Its pretty disturbing what is being revealed, but it all needs to come to light.

Its becoming more and more clear the reason the Caners won't respond is that there is no way for them to other than admitting they are wrong.

Thy Peace said...

Witnesses Unto Me > Ergun Caner, you moved to Ohio when you were 2 years old.

Wade Burleson said...

Thanks to Thy Peace's link above to Jason Smather's blog, I listened to today's Focus on the Family's broadcast. It was Ergun Caner preaching at Prestonwood a few years ago. Astounding. Compared to what is now known, to what was then said at Prestonwood (and continuing to be said thanks to Focus on the Family), it is almost embarrassing.

Greg Alford said...

The greatest thing that the Caner brothers need to repent of is their “Raw Ambition” which is at the root of their sin…

But then if we call on the Caners to repent of this sin, we must also call upon a great number of the current SBC Leadership “which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces, and the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts:”

Grace Always,

Lydia said...

From Jason's blog and the official documents he gathered he makes this excellent point:

"You speak about being part of the Islamic Jihad in today's broadcast. In other places you are described as a hardened terrorist. You said that you were "trained to that which was done on 11 September." Did you report this to the authorities some time after you were converted? I suspect that you made this up, but if it is true, maybe you had information that could have prevented 9/11"

So, he was involved with some sort of anti American sleeper cell that trained for Jihad and this information could have helped the FBI tracking potential terrorists in the US. But I suppose this is top secret. (rolls eyes)

In any event, from a purely pragmatic point of view, The Caners are actually helping the anti American Islamists with all these fabrications.

Martin_Luther said...

Try this link to
Focus On the Family radio broadcast.

Lydia said...

Patterson is speaking at Liberty University’s Class of 2010 graduation. Now, I am starting to understand better what is going on in the Baptist Idenity circles with the illogical defense of Caner's obvious bio fabrications.

Grigs said...

In Presbyterianism if one of our ordained teachers of pastors did this there is a way to bring up charges and have a trial for ethical conduct even if someone wasn't an heretic. In the SBC, is there a way to formally bring up charges in order to protect the integrity of the institution and denomination?

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

I want to thank FBC Jacksonville for being the source of the November 20, 2001 recording of Ergun Caner's sermon just after 9/11. They had the integrity not to dispose of his audio tape but to keep it available for check out even after the accusations surfaced of Caner's "embellishments". They could have destroyed that tape, and never let anyone check it out, but they did the right thing in keeping it available to the public.

It was that day, 11/20/01, that Jerry Vines brought the unknown "Ergun Caner" to us, while our emotions were still raw after 9/11. We all sat in stunned silence to hear this former terrorist, someone who was "trained to do that which was done on 11 September", who was "raised in Europe", and who was "in Islamic Youth Jihad" until the age of 15 - tell us that he was raised to hate us.

To me, this is the most damaging evidence of all against Caner. This shows that his lies went all the way back to 9/11...it shows him, in my opinion, to be the worst of all opportunists, to use the tragedy of 9/11, and our fears at the time, to launch himself into superstardom in the SBC as an expert in all things Muslim. It was after this sermon that came the book deals and the speaking gigs. E. Michael Caner became Ergun Mehmet Caner.

I was present in the building for that sermon, and Ergun Caner lied to me and about 9000 other people about his background and upbringing, and he did it with his mentor Jerry Vines just over his right shoulder. It reminded me of the day that Darrel Gilyard was introduced to us at FBC Jax as the homeless black preacher who grew up living under a bridge.

I hope that the Caners come clean and will repent of this.

And then we'll ask Tim Guthrie and those like him to repent as well, for defending that which is indefensible.

Thy Peace said...

The Wartburg Watch > A Liar for a Seminary President?.

Thy Peace said...

Watchdog:

How did you go into FBC Jax to purchase/procure the November 20, 2001 recording of Ergun Caner?

Are not the Trespass Warnings still in effect for you and your wife?

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

And I have to remind everyone of one of the sinister sides of Caner's fabrications:

During the last 9 years while traveling the preaching circuit, Caner has used his story of being an "olive skinned" Turkish immigrant, a minority himself (which I don't see how he is a minority at all), to speak false stereotypes of certain minorities.

His sermons are laced with false stereotypes of blacks, Hispanics, Mexicans, women, Turks, Muslims, etc. He used his phony, self-made image of himself as a platform from which to joke about these false stereotypes.

And we Southern Baptists played right into his hands, and laughed and guffawed at his jokes when he should have been booed off the platform.

The worst of which was his joke made during a sermon at a conference on the west coast, where he said that he and his wife, if they ever adopt, will adopt Mexicans, since they will need to have their roof repaired and their lawn cut.

Over the years when I heard these kinds of statements from Caner, even as recent as last summer at FBC Jax, I knew there was something wrong with this guy.

And now we know.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Thy Peace:

I was a member at FBC Jax for many years, all the way back to 1988...and as you can imagine I still have a few friends and contacts who are members, people that haven't totally written us off.

Thy Peace said...

God bless your friends Watchdog. That audio recording of Ergun Caner changed lot of peoples thinking about Ergun Caner.

TransplantedOkie said...

I guess I am confused as to why Debbie's post was so "dangerous." If Ergan Caner's information was/is on the Liberty site, what difference would Debbie's post have made. Are fanatical Muslims now scouring the internet for fake ex-Muslims? Would these self same fanatics just not have found him through his own site? Sounds like these guys created a tempest in a tea cup, OR they thought the only way to get Debbie to remove the post was create some crisis.

Weird

TransplantedOkie said...

Sorry! misspelled "Ergun," and should clarify "these guys" are those that sought to have the post removed.

F Y I said...

I warned all about this guy at Truett / MC and the Georgia Baptist Convention issue.

I warned all about Emir and his deception 3 years ago!

I wrote all about how I discovered his lies and fabrications...but NOBODY believed me then...

Maybe they will now! I know much much more than is even published.

To me this is old news, but maybe now it will make an impact.

I brought out these issues when I exposed Mike Everson.

Guess I need to "open" my blog for business again......
Doug

Tim Rogers said...

Brother Wade,

You are not being truthful in this OP. You say: It's revealing to read what I wrote some two months ago, the very morning I first learned about issues with Ergun Caner. in reference to Debbie's post. That post is dated Feb. 20, 2010. According to your OP that is the first you learned of these issues. However in a Feb 18, 2010 10am comment thread look at what you said. You linked both to the same blog that Debbie Kaufman linked to in her post (where you say hers was the first you heard of this) and to a facebook site that was set up to attack Dr. Caner. Then someone posting as "The Way of Cain", at 9:00pm on Feb. 18, 2010, writes James White is not a fan of Ergun either:

http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=3765 the same post Debbie linked to in her Feb 20 OP.

So, Brother, now you go after Dr. Caner's brother. Well you have told lies about how you came to know about these issues. You have said you did not give Debbie the very information that you posted in the comment thread 2 days earlier. What happens when Debbie posts her OP. You ask the question at the end of your comment concerning Dr. Caner on Feb 18, "Does anybody feel a post coming?" On Feb. 20, 2010 Debbie Kaufman post her vitriol of fabrications and the first person to acknowledge her was your Dad.

Now you comment today that you knew nothing about this issue until Debbie posted it, when you gave her the information in your comments and I would not doubt that you are the one pushing all of this because of your desire that dates, I know back to 2006, where you were telling pastors that the SBC did not need the likes of Ergun Caner in leadership.

Have a nice day. You have either mis-spoke or you have flat out told a lie here. Which do you think it is? If it is a mis-spoken incident I can forgive. If it is a lie, you need to confess that also.

Tim

greg.w.h said...

Tim:

Oh, so we're supposed to overlook the Caners' fictionalized life stories because Wade's not spectacularly careful on constructing timelines. Is that what Jesus meant about logs and motes by any chance?

Greg Harvey

Tom Parker said...

Tim Rogers:

Why are you trying to change the subject?

Paul Burleson said...

Tim,

I'm not sure what your are saying by these words..."You ask the question at the end of your comment concerning Dr. Caner on Feb 18, "Does anybody feel a post coming?" On Feb. 20, 2010 Debbie Kaufman post her vitriol of fabrications and the first person to acknowledge her was your Dad."

But I will say something that will either show my age..or ignorance..or both perhaps, but when I read that post, I had to wait a few minutes before I commented because I had to LOOK UP who Ergan Caner WAS. [I'm chuckling to myself with the memory of my ignorance.] I was totally unaware and clueless about who he was.

But before that event subsided I had heard from Tim G. [If I remember correctly] and ultimately even had the opportunity of talking with Dr. Caner myself.

So if you are trying to say Wade and I conspired to get the information for Debbie.. boy are you off base. But..whatever.

[I did do some real research afterward and the result was my post on my own blog.]

Bart Barber said...

One Sunday morning at FBC Farmersville a young lady walked forward during the altar call, confidently looked me into the eyes, and said simply, "I have received the faith. I believe in Jesus." It was the culmination of months of prayer and witness to this young woman. She testified that the person used by the Holy Spirit the most effectively to bring her to Christ was Emir Caner, who had preached at our church about a month previously, with whom she had spoken afterwards in our sanctuary, and who had spoken with her by telephone and corresponded with her in an ongoing fashion afterward, and even to this day.

A few years later another young woman did much the same in our congregation, and again with Emir playing the same role.

Not only I, but the entire congregation at FBC Farmersville—before whose eyes this entire story played out and to whose prayers these events were a glorious answer from God—will dispute any characterization of Emir Caner as one who does not preach the gospel to Muslims or who has no fruit for his efforts.

I was not present at Emir's birth nor at his conversion, but others were. I will leave it to them to testify as to what they know. But as to this one question, I can bear personal direct testimony of two whom I hope to see in Heaven whose stories of conversion mention Emir Caner. I'm reticent about attributing the divine miracle of conversion to the influence of any human being, but to the degree that any of us can go about claiming credit for "fruit," these two belong to Emir Caner.

I regret that I don't have the time to stick around and participate in the comment thread (I don't even do a very good job of doing that at MY blog these days!) Pardon my interruption. By all means, let the lynch mob continue unabated.

Paul Burleson said...

For the sake of clarity..I heard from Tim as a result of my comment not my research which came over the next few days and completely verified for me the legitimacy of Debbie's post. [Though I had complete confidence in it because I do know her character and integrity both of which remain intact IMHO.]

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

My word. I'm listening now to Caner's Focus on the Family sermon that was delivered to Prestonwood shortly after 9/11. He referred to the 9/11 attacks "earlier this year", so this must have been a sermon delivered around the time of the FBC Jax 11/20/01 sermon.

Here he says twice that he was in "Islamic Jihad". At FBC Jax, he told us he was in "Islamic Youth Jihad", but now he is in "Islamic Jihad", with the implication that this occured in Europe. Again, Caner is trying to pass himself off as a trained terrorist - taking advantage of Christians who believed that a man standing in a pulpit would never, ever have the audacity to lie right to their faces.

He over and over says he was raised in Europe and the Middle East.

He tells Prestonwood that he learned English in Brooklyn, and went to high school in Brooklyn where he rolled out his prayer rug 5 times a day.

Said at age 17 his English was poor. After living in the states since the age of 4, he claims at age 17 he spoke broken English. He even says a year later at age 18, when he surrendered to full time ministry, that his English was poor.

Said he led his mom to the Lord over the phone. This contradicts what he has said elsewhere.

Worse and worse.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Bart - yes, thank you for chiming in. Please return your head to the sand on the Ergun Caner issue, we'll continue to expose the truth.

Tom Parker said...

Bart:

Wade said in the first comment:"I have chosen to leave comments open and unmoderated. Please check your spirit before you press SEND."

You say in part of your comment:"By all means, let the lynch mob continue unabated."

In my opinion you violated Wade's instruction.

Do you know how reprehensible it is to even use the words, "lynch mob?"

Tim G said...

Tom Parker,
I just love the way you drive by and attack! You crack me up more than anyone else in blog world. It must be great being you!

Have a great evening!

Tom Parker said...

Tim G:

When will you admit you are on the wrong side of this SAD issue?

How much evidence will it take?

Wade Burleson said...

Tim Rogers,

Thanks for pointing out the comment I made on February 18 about a blogsite that exposed what I called (at the time) Ergun Caner's "alleged" deception.

You are correct that my comment was two days prior to Debbie's post. However, what Debbie posted was something she decided to do totally on her own--possibly because of the comment you pointed out, but she never emailed me, sought information from me about Caner or even told me she was going to post anything on Caner. Frankly, I didn't know anything to contribute. Like my father, Caner was not on my radar screen.

Frankly, Tim, it is people like you who make me interested. As I've said before, your friendship with Ergun is not real helpful to him. What you are doing only steels my resolve to get to the truth, whatever it is.

Now, you have my testimony, my father's testimony and Debbie's testimony that her post was independently produced without any help from me. Unless you are deceived into believing we are intentional liars, conspiring to mutually lie to destroy people out of malice, hatred and bitterness, I would suggest you accept our word as brothers and sisters in Christ.

Otherwise, you reveal far more about yourself than you do us.

Tim G said...

Tom,
Yet another good laugh! Just as the Patterson issue was proven to be bogus...!

Have a great evening!

Wade Burleson said...

Watchdog,

Honestly, my jaw hit the floor as I listened to Focus on the Family.

For those who wish to uphold Ergun's "apology" as proof of his "repentance" for unintentionally misleading people, then for heaven's sake, somebody ought to write to Focus on the Family and tell them TO NOT PLAY THE TAPE EVER AGAIN.

Interestingly, books are being pulled from libraries and bookstores, changes are being made to official "bios," websites are being altered or taken down, and other efforts are being made to erase past "unintentional" statements by Ergun Caner--but SOMEBODY FORGOT TO CALL FOCUS ON THE FAMILY.

Tim G said...

Paul,
You said "But I will say something that will either show my age..or ignorance..or both perhaps, but when I read that post, I had to wait a few minutes before I commented because I had to LOOK UP who Ergan Caner WAS. [I'm chuckling to myself with the memory of my ignorance.] I was totally unaware and clueless about who he was."

Were you not at a table in 2006 where your son stated that Ergun did not need to be in leadership in the SBC? Did you just forget this? Or ????

Incredible!

Tim G said...

And I might add that neither of the Caner brothers are in Leadership of the SBC.

Somehow this is being missed!

Wade Burleson said...

Tim Guthrie,

Were you not at a table in 2006 where your son stated that Ergun did not need to be in leadership in the SBC? Did you just forget this?

Umm, maybe he did forget. Umm, maybe I did too. Please enlighten the both of us since you obviously were there. Oh, umm, Tim, you weren't there? Hmm, who was there?

Laughing.

I have absolutely, positively no recollection of ever saying anything like that to anyone at a dinner table. However, if I was brilliant enough in 2006 to see a connection between Dr. Ergun Caner and Dr. Paige Patterson in separatist, Landmark, anti-cessationist theology, and a propensity to promote celebrity over character, and had I actually said something to the effect that you say I did (i.e. "he shouldn't be in leadership in the SBC"), then I need a pat on the back.

Of course, I wouldn't put it past my Baptist Identity friends to allege that I also shot JFK when I was 2 years old.

Tom Parker said...

Tim G:

Satisfied now? Or do you have proof of what you allege?

Tom Parker said...

Tim:

I think I hear the crickets chirping coming from your direction.

Scott said...

I think an underlying issue that has gone unnoticed is this:

How often do pastors embellish a little story here or there? How often do pastors exaggerate an event or an experience to further underline a point in a given sermon?

I've worked behind the scenes for too long and have had pastors admit that to me in a moment of candor since if it helped reached the lost, then it's alright.

Kevin M. Crowder said...

It would seem that the same men protecting Brothers Caner are some of the same men behind the Great Commission Takeover of the SBC. The problem here is the timing. Next week we have a report coming out that the "Power-mongering Nicolaitans" need to get passed in Orlando to successfully funnel the big bucks to their causes and out of the direct control of the people of the SBC. The "Good Ol' Boys Club" gots a plan and this darn'd Caner thing is just not timely. So under the rug she goes...

...Caner is safe in the arms of the machine. Do not give the machine more power. Vote down the GCRTF Report. Vote for Dr. David Tolliver's motion to table the the vote 'till next year. The people need time to process and study the drastic changes being made to the SBC. A yes vote will wipe out the State Conventions, the Associations, and the power of the local bodies. Christ is the Victorious General and King, and He is giving gifts to ALL men, not just a few. Stop the Power-mongering Nicolaitans and turn to Christus Victor!

Tim G said...

Wade,
Your last post reveals more than I could have ever dreamed you would admit to.

Thanks!

Tom,
Again, a great evening to you!

Tom Parker said...

Tim G:

You're a very SAD case!!. I'd respect you more if you would just say that you were wrong, instead of slinging mud with no evidence.

Douglas said...

As he snuffs the gale of popular applause!

(J. A. James, "Ministerial Duties Stated and Enforced")

"In all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God." 2 Corinthians 6:4.

This verse implies that ministers are to labor for God—surely not for the preacher's fame. SELF is an idol which has been worshiped by far greater multitudes than any other deity of either ancient or modern heathenism. A minister is the last man in the world who should be seen at the altar of this vile abomination—SELF. And yet without great care he is likely to be the first one there, to linger there the longest, to bow the lowest, and to express his devotion by the costliest sacrifices!

Many become ministers merely to acquire popular applause. 'Fame' is their motive and their aim. To commend themselves, is the secret but powerful spring of all they do. SELF is with them in the study directing their reading, selecting their texts, arranging their thoughts, forming their illustrations—and all with a view to 'shine in public'. Thus prepared, they ascend the pulpit with the same object which conducts the actor to the stage—to secure the applause of approving spectators. Every tone is modulated, every emphasis laid, every attitude regulated—to please the audience, rather than to profit their souls; to commend themselves, and not Jesus Christ. The service ended, this bosom idol returns with them to their own abode, and renders them restless and uneasy to know how they have succeeded. If they are admired, they receive their reward; if not, the first prize is lost!

It is nothing in abatement of the sin, that all this while evangelical sentiments are uttered. Orthodoxy is the most direct road to popularity. Christ may be the text—when SELF is the sermon! And dreadful as it seems, it is to be feared that many have elevated the cross only to suspend upon the 'sacred tree' their own honors! and have employed all the glories of redemption—merely to emblazon their own name!

The ministry is not intended to be a platform, where the petty manufacturer of 'tinsel eloquence' and 'rhetorical flowers' shall display to a gaping crowd his gaudy wares!

When carried to this height, this is the direst, deepest tragedy that was ever performed by man, since it ends in the actual and eternal death of the performer, who forgets, as he snuffs the gale of popular applause, that it bears the vapors of damnation!

"The Spirit took me to the north gate of the temple's inner courtyard, where there was an idol that disgusted the Lord and made Him furious!" (Ezekiel 8:3)

Tim G said...

Tom,
I do love our conversations!

Tom Parker said...

Tim:

With overwhelming evidence you continue to deny the truth and try to discredit other Christians. How Sad.

Kevin M. Crowder said...

This is the kind of crap Mr. Guthrie and the Power-mongering Nicolaitans use to manipulate the people in the pew. God honoring or man?

Tim G said...

Tom,
And again, a wonderful evening to you!

Kevin,
I thought the video was funny. Glad you can read my mind and know my heart. You and Tom mus be brothers.

Great evening to you as well!

Kevin M. Crowder said...

Mr. Guthrie,

I was not attempting to read your mind nor your heart. You posted it and called it "creative teaching on stewardship" and thus are endorsing it. I find it shameful, unbiblical (both theologically and worshipfully), and manipulative.

Tim G said...

Kevin,
I find you obnoxious. We are even.

Have a great evening!

Tom Parker said...

Tim G:

You tell Kevin that you find him to be obnoxious and then tell him to have a great evening.

KMC simply said to you:"I find it shameful, unbiblical (both theologically and worshipfully), and manipulative."

Once again you can not deal with TRUTH.

Kevin M. Crowder said...

"God gave us the New Testament church. We have corrupted her greatly in America [with lies and deceit]but God still has not given us an alternative. In fact He did not give us a choice [Calvin rocks!]. Ephesians is clear that God provides every gift for the church for the purpose of her caring(sic) out the mission - the Great Commission! It is the church that is to hold us accountable as individuals. It is the church that is to provide for the teaching and discipleship of the people that are reached with the Gospel. The gifts given were given to local churches to honor God in doing the work of God.[Go to church this Sunday to get your gift!] Each one of us according to Ephesians are part of the body that God uses to equip and "staff" the church." -Tim G.

TransplantedOkie said...

Good grief! Y'all need to stop this fake "blessing" and wishing of "good evening" at once! It's embarrassing to watch you behave like this. If you are going to keep at it, go build your own sandbox.

Tim Rogers said...

Brother Wade,

Let me see if I can ask this again. Did you mis-speak or did you lie?

Blessings,
Tim

mirele said...

It should be noted that there are as yet unanswered issues regarding two of Ergun Caner's degrees. (Specifically: his misrepresentation of a Th.D as a Ph.D and his M.Div from an apparently unaccredited institution.) I documented them in some detail last summer:

http://mmmirele.blogspot.com/search/label/Ergun%20Caner

Tom Parker said...

Tim Rogers:

I believe you are asking the wrong person who lied--have you lied?

Scott said...

Tim Rogers,

Provide proof to your accusations rather than this paltry evidence.

Then again, you're king of throwing around accusations with little to no proof.

You have linked a comment post and based a claim on an anecdotal source from a person that may not have even been present in the first place, yet you expect to be taken seriously.

All the while these people are citing written sources, legal documents (good luck forging those), audio files, video files, and yet you still defend Ergun Caner and his actions.

Why is your standard of evidence so high yet you expect us to accept your circumstantial, at best, evidence?

Oh, and nice beer in that profile pic.

:)


Scott

Wade Burleson said...

Tim Rogers,

Let me see if I can ask you again. Did you mis-peak or did you lie

?

Tim, pray tell, what motive would I have to lie about when I learned about Ergun Caner's deception?

Obviously, I became aware of Ergun Caner's "alleged" deception on February 18th. I made a comment about it, and on February 20th, I read Debbie's post and the deception of Caner became, at least to me, verified by the videos.

You seem quite intent on proving that I am "lying" about when I found out about Caner's deceit? I have offered to you a detailed explanation of the difference in days on when I learned about Caner's deception, including an edit in the main body of the post.

Why are you so concerned? More precisely, where is a similar outrage over major, documentable deceit about Dr. Caner's educational credentials, Muslim background and alleged debates?

That's the issue. But, it seems that you wish to denigrate me in order to avoid the real issue.

Won't work.

Alan Paul said...

Tim, Tim and Tom: I feel like I should take my mom's role with you all. When my brother (40 years old) and I (43) are doing the arguing "tit for tat - i gotta get in the last word" thing. She says something to the effect of: "Knock it off and grow up!" It always embarrasses and humiliates me when she feels the need to do that (thankfully it's not very often - but once is too many for grown men).

The Squirrel said...

You know, I can "get" the Caners and LU buttoning up like turtles and hoping this goes away. Embarrassment is one of the hardest things any of us ever have to face. Especially when we've done it to ourselves.

What i don't get is guys like Tim Guthrie who, in the face of such overwhelming evidence, keep hanging it out in public. Reminds me of "Baghdad Bob" "There are no (BOOM) American troops (Sound of aircraft & bombs) in Iraq, let alone (Sound of tanks driving by) in Baghdad!"

Inconceivable.

Squirrel

Lydia said...

Bart, I am confused by your comment. Are you suggesting Christian celebrities should lie more in order to save more souls?

Frankly, I am concerned about those saved 'by' Caner.

Wade Burleson said...

Squirrel,

You made me laugh with your descriptive comment.

I remember Baghdad Bob well! Great analogy.

Bart Barber said...

Tom Parker,

I did indeed violate what Wade asked me to do. I typed that comment, clicked Send, and received a Blogger error. Thinking that matter over, I thought it would be better to call Wade and speak with him personally about the matter. Our conversation was gracious and he was a Christian gentleman throughout.

Upon arriving back to my computer, I was surprised to see that my comment had gone through. The Blogger error had led me to believe that it had not gone through.

I repent of allowing a caustic tone to color my remarks and ask for the forgiveness of all who are in the thread. Although I feel passionately about the souls now in the Kingdom through the ministry of Emir Caner, it is for that very reason why I do not want to sully the testimony of these courageous (beyond any significance that the word 'courageous' will ever hold for me) young believers by dragging it down into some Baptist online squabble.

I was wrong.

Kevin M. Crowder said...

Not sure why you deleted that Wade, I was about to post the proof that that too was a fake stunt.


Seems perfectly germane to the thread.

Bart Barber said...

To be entirely clear (I was a bit too nuanced in the preceding comment, I think), the coming to Christ of these young women was something sacred. I dare not tell of it in the same breath with sarcasm and cobelligerence.

Lydia said...

"Let me see if I can ask this again. Did you mis-speak or did you lie?"

Where has Wade preached in sermons he was raised by Cherokee Indians on a reservation and trained to hate Americam who stole his ancestors lands while lobbying congress for more tax free Casino's?

Lydia said...

To be entirely clear (I was a bit too nuanced in the preceding comment, I think), the coming to Christ of these young women was something sacred. I dare not tell of it in the same breath with sarcasm and cobelligerence.

Tue Apr 27, 12:05:00 AM 2010

It is sacred, Bart. That is why MAN never gets the credit.

Bart Barber said...

Lydia,

Perhaps you missed the sentence: "I'm reticent about attributing the divine miracle of conversion to the influence of any human being, but to the degree that any of us can go about claiming credit for "fruit," these two belong to Emir Caner." Did you catch that lengthy introductory clause?

To all:

It occurs to me that, my having now stepped in this far, and it now being pretty evident that I am the person whom Wade mentioned in the post, that I want to clarify something that might be read either of two ways in what Wade posted. I am not nervously hopeful that Ergun and Emir will find some way to demonstrate the validity of their conversions from Islam to salvation. Rather, I am confidently hopeful that this will happen.

Off to bed. Busy week.

Wade Burleson said...

Kevin,

Feel free to repost. Just a gentle nudge to keep the language in the title about the video and not a statement about character, and provide the proof as a comment with the video itself.

Thanks.

The Squirrel said...

Wade:

Thanks, I was chuckling as I wrote it. :o)

Bart Barber wrote: "...I feel passionately about the souls now in the Kingdom through the ministry of Emir Caner..."

God will save His elect, and a poor presentation of the Gospel will not prevent those "appointed to eternal life" (Acts 14:38) from coming to Him. However, a poor presentation of the Gospel can lead a lot of people who are not saved to think that they are saved. That is a big problem with the emotion-laden style of evangelism practiced by Dr. Caner.

Squirrel

Wade Burleson said...

Lydia,

Your Cherokee heritage, American hating, lobbying Congress comment was hilarious.

The only problem is the Tim's in this section probably believe it and will pass it on as fact.

Smile.

Paul Burleson said...

Tim,

I've just returned from preaching a second night of a four day conference on spiritual renewal and am late in getting to read your question.

No I DO NOT remember being at a table where Caner was talked about as a leader. The only explanation I have, if someone told you I was, is...

One..I heard that name and didn't have a clue who was being spoken of and promptly forgot it.

Two... I wasn't at a table where it was being talked about.

Three..Someone heard a statement made [conversation] while I'd gone to the men's room.

Four..Someone is pulling your string.

Five..I have short term memory loss and remember things that happened a long time ago only.

I think the only one that makes any sense to me and my memory is number four. But I'm open.

Tim G said...

Lydia,
Now you have done it - you stole my next post. Oh well!

Kevin M. Crowder said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Thy Peace said...

This Sunday's sermon of Pastor Wade is very apt for this post and for people who are discouraged by all that is happening around us.

If you wish to watch the video, it's titled "Christ in Me Guarantees the Enemy's is After Me", April 25, 2010.

Maybe Ergun Caner needs to listen to this sermon.

Wade Burleson said...

Thanks, Thy Peace.

To All: I am out of pocket for the next two days. Please keep things civil.

In His Grace,

Wade

Debbie Kaufman said...

Tim Rogers, Tim Guthrie: I will state it again. Wade nor Paul had nothing to do with my post, posts, posting. I followed a link made by a commenter which led me to the James White video which I watched more than once, not believing what I was seeing, but yet seeing it. I followed the trail until I came upon Mohammd's then 10 videos. I spent the whole night watching each and every video, checking each fact that he gave concerning Islam out and this continued until I was convinced that Ergun had indeed lied about many things, changing his story based on the audience, and until I had enough material to write my post.

It has to be because I am a woman, otherwise why would you doubt my skills as a research writer. Writing term papers and researching was part of my High School curriculum. I went to a private Christian High School whose standards and grading scale were much higher than public school. I went for 4 years. Then I honed my writing and research skills in the time I began to study the Bible for myself, seeking the God of the Bible.

In my 40's I went to NOC where I took 2 semesters of college writing, where research skills were further homed. I feel I am very good at what I do. Take that with nursing skills due to being a med aide for many years, and having to be alert, which homed my skills at spotting many things people miss. I also know when something isn't right, and unlike you, who also has to know something isn't right,but choose to be for the home team, I call them as I research them. I know to post proof beyond a shadow of a doubt. That is how I found Mohammad, I wrote to him, I liked what he wrote me back, I interviewed him and the rest is history. Wade nor Paul did nothing but support where my conscience was leading. Just as my husband has been doing. Period.

As for the Patterson debacle, Tim, he was never proven innocent, just like we do with all our stars, leadership ignored, stuck their heads in the sand and did nothing. Which they may possibly do with Dr. Caner, but it doesn't matter cause too many people know the truth. Things of his have already been pulled from websites. Books, videos, pulled. So someone is listening and believing.

Tim G said...

Debbie,
Because you are a woman??? You have just proved that you do not know me at all.

Tom Parker said...

Alan Paul:

You said:"Tim, Tim and Tom: I feel like I should take my mom's role with you all. When my brother (40 years old) and I (43) are doing the arguing "tit for tat - i gotta get in the last word" thing. She says something to the effect of: "Knock it off and grow up!" It always embarrasses and humiliates me when she feels the need to do that (thankfully it's not very often - but once is too many for grown men)."

I agree with you and shall cease and desist with Tim G. and Tim Rogers. I will let them have the last word.

Alan, thanks for the way in which you made me take a good hard look at my behavior this morning and having to ask God to forgive me of this sinful behavior.

Bless you, brother. You greatly improved my day.

Joe Blackmon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jeff said...

I have decided to make both sides mad at me this morning in this silly political argument.

I'm praying the Lord builds a ship and sends both parties to Mars.

Neither of you are honoring God. The avg SBC'er could careless about this argument.

Grow-up and move on....

Tim Rogers said...

Brother Wade,

To begin, I am not intent on showing you as lying. I am merely asking you did you mis-speak or did you lie when you said in this very post that Debbie's article was the first time you learned of the issues alleged by a Muslim who is has gone after ever converted Muslim he can find, concerning Dr. Caner's alleged discrepancies.

I am merely asking, did you lie or did you mis-speak?

More precisely, where is a similar outrage over major, documentable deceit about Dr. Caner's educational credentials, Muslim background and alleged debates?

Let's examine the "documentation". All public records that anyone can go and purchase a copy of under the freedom of information act. The records show what? Dr. Caner and her mother were divorced? Everyone knew that. What else did they show? Dr. Caner's dad insisted on raising him Muslim? Nothing new there. You allow yourself to be suckered into a running vendetta against Dr. Caner based on these public documents? Are you saying that you are going to allow a Muslim, whose sole purpose in life is to discredit Christians, to feed you his lies?

Let's look at the educational credentials. Are you certain you want to go there? Where did you get your Masters? Where did you get your Doctorate? As to Dr. Caner's degree it is verified that he has a ThD from the University of South Africa. As to the ThD becoming a PhD. Same thing happened at New Orleans. They changed the ThD to a PhD and made it retroactive. There is no difference in the academic rigors between a ThD and a PhD.

Concerning Dr. Caner's Muslim background. You have allowed a Muslim, whose sole intent is to tear down Christians, to sway you with the way Dr. Caner pronounces words in Arabic. The President of Iran uses the same dialect and enunciation in his Arabic. Are you going to try and tell us that he is not a Muslim either?

At to debates. If you desire to follow James White, whose credentials you have never questioned, (let me write my own curriculum and I can get 3 or 4 PhD's) and his strictly held definition for debates to a formal setting with a moderator, then be my guest. However, Wade, what you and I are doing is debating.

So, back to the topic at hand. Did you mis-speak or did you lie when you said the first you heard of Dr. Caner's issues were on Debbie's blog?

Blessings,
Tim

Tim Rogers said...

Brother Wade,

I must confess that I wrote my last response before I re-read your updated version of what you say happened.

In your update you say; "the very morning I first had confirmed that there were legitimate issues with Dr. Caner's Muslim background". No, Wade you cannot have it both ways. Debbie used the very material that you linked to and also the material that was posted by "The Way of Can" in your Feb 18, post. So, you cannot say it was confirmed by Debbie's post because of the comment by "Way of Cain". You provided two independent sources in your comment and "Way of Cain" provided another independent source.

So, now you have two times that you have either lied or you are mis-speaking. Which one is it?

Blessings,
Tim

Transplanted Okie said...

Joe Blackman,
Where is your Christian spirit when you call someone an airhead? Or did you read that Wade was going to be gone so you decided you would begin to act like an 6th grader with the teacher out of the room? Grow up. Your ugly comments do nothing but reveal your ugly soul.

Debbie Kaufman said...

Jeff: So you believe it's honoring to the Lord to say nothing? You believe it is honoring to the Lord to just let him lie, fool people, take their money on false pretenses? And to say it is political is a red herring. It also lets me know and determine further to keep doing what I am doing.Your statement shows me that our mindset has been wrong for too long. Thank you.

Debbie Kaufman said...

The madder Joe gets the more I know I am doing the right thing again. It's an airhead that got to the bottom of this, it is an airhead that put this out there and so others with more resources than her could gather even more information. What have you done lately Joe? I mean other than abuse with your words? Ignorance is simply being shown on your part. It shows again where we are, so continue showing the world Joe. It just confirms what I am saying.

Debbie Kaufman said...

Tim Rogers: You sound like a broken record here. I do worry about your demeanor. It's just not able to be reasoned with.

It is you who are lying. Why you insist on this I do not know. I told you exactly as it happened. But my question is why are you diverting attention anyway? What I wrote turned out to be the truth. That is something you have ignored and failed to speak about. It doesn't matter if what you say is true(which it isn't, again I did this on my own) or not. And it began with me watching James White's video on the subject. I followed the trail. Period. End of story. Now get off of this rabbit trail and deal with the facts that have been presented. That would be refreshing.

Debbie Kaufman said...

Oh and by the way Joe, it is an airhead that got Dr. Caner so worried about my first post that he contacted Paul to get me to take it down. Along with Tim Guthrie and other's emailing me. It is also an airhead that got a couple of people who know Dr. Caner to confirm that I was right on the money. It is also an airhead that read Jason Smather's time line, who as you know I have conversed with, and thought that was closer to the truth. It is also an airhead that banned you from abusing on my blog so you have to go run and do it on others.

So think about that for awhile before you decide to blow in my ear. I don't think it is me who is not thinking properly. Joe, there is an elephant in the room, be careful not to bump into it on your way out the door.

Richard said...

In the last two weeks, Joe Blackmon has called a responder a "bimbo" or an "airhead." I cannot believe that I am the only one who finds such language offensive and unnecessary. Since such a spirit is outside the nature of a blog that cautions us about such attitudes, I request respectfully that Joe be barred from responding on this site. I do not find Christian grace being expressed in such adolescent name-calling.

The Squirrel said...

Tim Rogers said...
Let's examine the "documentation". All public records that anyone can go and purchase a copy of under the freedom of information act. The records show what? Dr. Caner and her mother were divorced? Everyone knew that. What else did they show? Dr. Caner's dad insisted on raising him Muslim? Nothing new there.

Tim, what the records show is that:(this is not an exhaustive list)

1)Ergun Caner, who claimed to move to America in 1978 at the age of 13 actually moved here at the age of two.

2) Ergun Caner, who has repeatedly claimed to have grown up in majority Muslim countries, did in fact grow up in Ohio, which is not a “majority Muslim” country. Prior to that, he lived in Sweden.

3)Ergun Caner only lived 6 weeks out of the year with his Muslim father. The rest of the time he lived with his mother, whom Emir says was not a devout Muslim, but was, in fact, a hippy.

4)Ergun Caner changed his public persona from “E. Michael Caner” to “Ergun Mehmet Caner” after 9/11/2001. He also, at that time, began to speak publically about “growing up in Turkey” and being a part of the “Islamic Youth Jihad.”

Tim, Dr. Caner has been putting forth a false front for most of the last decade. He has repeatedly misled people, in person and in print. Is this a man to be trusted? If he is lying about these things, and the evidence strongly suggests that he is, I must wonder, “what else is he lying about?

Are you saying that you are going to allow a Muslim, whose sole purpose in life is to discredit Christians, to feed you his lies?

This is a total ad hominin. Facts are facts, and their factuality is not dependent on who discovers or delivers them. If someone tells me it is raining, it either is or it isn’t. No characteristic or belief of the person relating the fact changes the fact in any way. What I find sad is the fact that we in SBC are apparently not willing to police our own.

Squirrel

Debbie Kaufman said...

To all: I know this will not end all of the name calling, copy infringement garbage, or any other lies that you deem to print. But what I have given is fact. It has been verified by legal documents. Jason Smather's current article is also based on fact, that Ergun was 2 years old when he came to America to Ohio. Not Boston. Yet in the Focus on the Family, he claims Boston and a whole new set of made up facts. Deal with that. The more names, the more posts dealing with ridiculous ways of not dealing with the facts just show that you cannot deal with the facts. Ergun Caner made everything up. He got his job and worldwide notoriety based on lies. Deal with that folks. The more you squabble the more I am determined to get it out there. Nothing may be done, but books are being pulled from websites. I hear from more people giving me encouragement. Christians, not just SB. So I hope that if the SBC does not see fit to disassociate with him, that others with more integrity and who face the truth, will. It may take time, but they will. Cause things on the internet stay up for a very long time. I will not be bullied, beat up, or intimidated. It just doesn't work. It hasn't in the past, it won't now.

For the last time, Wade did not know I was going to post what I did. Paul did not know. End of story. I'm not the one lying here, I'm not the one nor Wade that should be questioned. None of you have questioned Ergun. That is the height of craziness and shows the heart. Integrity is the least of your concerns. That concerns me greatly.

Tim Marsh said...

I have been wondering how common it is for "evangelists" to embellish their "testimonies" to elicit response from the crowd.

It seems that this practice is more common than not.

Where are these "debates" taking place that several evangelists cite. They claim that they have participated and won against the greatest in their opponents' fields.

I hear of miracles in their stories. Where are those who have benefited from these miracles?

I am grieved and greatly concerned that claims of "supernatural" ministry success are embellished.

Is there any research into this?

It reminds me of an Andy Griffith episode when Colonel Harvey came to Mayberry peddling his famous elixer that was to "cure what ails you." He claimed the recipe came from Indians and that he lived among them. He even performed smoke signals and spoke the language, which was gibberish. Of course, Andy and Barney eventually exposed the formula to be whiskey.

I just wonder how common this practice is, and how often evangelists preach under the cloud of deception.

Thy Peace said...

The only problem with embellishment and lies to spread The Gospel is the rest of the world will turn it's back on The Gospel as a result.

I am beginning to believe this is the work of the Devil or the Enemy.

The only way to overcome this is for the Caner's brothers to confess and repent publicly and apologize to their brothers and sisters in Christ for their embellishments and lies.

B Nettles said...

Richard,
No, you are not the only one offended. I can only guess that Wade has his reasons for allowing Joe to speak. Matthew 15:11 comes to mind.

Thy Peace said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Thy Peace said...

Ministry of Reconciliation [Debbie Kaufman] > John Ankerberg Has Had Part 3 of Mohammad’s Videos Removed.

Dear mokhan247,

We have disabled the following material as a result of a third-party notification from Dr. John F. Ankerberg, claiming that this material is infringing:

FAKE EX MUSLIM EXPOSED PART 3 Dr.Ergun Caner talks about his Journey from Islam to Christ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-MIZdCKLoQ

Please Note: Repeated incidents of copyright infringement will result in the deletion of your account and all videos uploaded to that account. In order to prevent this from happening, please delete any videos to which you do not own the rights and refrain from uploading additional videos that infringe on the copyrights of others. For more information about YouTube’s copyright policy, please read the Copyright Tips guide.

If one of your postings has been misidentified as infringing, you may submit a counter-notification. Information about this process is in our Help Centre.

Please note that under Section 512(f) of the Copyright Act, any person who knowingly materially misrepresents that material was disabled due to mistake or misidentification may be liable for damages.

Yours sincerely,

– The YouTube Team

Tim Rogers said...

Squirrel,

Before you try to correct someone you need to come out of hiding. Posting facts anonymously is tantamount to lying.

Blessings,
Tim

Tim Rogers said...

Debbie,

You can talk until you are blue in the face you cannot hide the facts. WB posted on Feb 18 the very source information that you used to write your blog post on Feb 20. "The Way of Cain" posted James White's video link on Feb 18 and it is the very video that you linked on Feb 20.

If that is what you call independent research, you probably need to go back to school. While you independently may have posted that, (if you say it I guess I have to accept it, but because of past relationship and defenses of WB I do not believe for one minute he and he daddy are not behind this mess)you certainly are misinforming the public where you got this material.

So, defend WB all you desire, but he still needs to answer the two statements. Did he mis-speak, (first about not knowing any issues about Dr. Caner until he read about it on your blog, second about your blog confirming these issues as he was the one who provided two of the links and also the James White link provided in his comment stream) on these now two occasions or is he lying? Which is it Wade? Did you mis-speak or have you lied?

Tim

Debbie Kaufman said...

Tim: I did not click on the link. I did not see it. I went to the bottom of the page as I always do on comments and worked my way up. I did see the comment further down on James White's video. I clicked on it. I followed the trail, which I knew how to do to find Mohammad. End of story. Enough already. I am not lying to you, I am stating what I did that anyone can do. I also now have more contacts than ever. Believe me this is going to all come out. Now are you going to deal with the facts or not? You are exhausting me, you are a broken record.

Think about this. If I did see it, it wouldn't have mattered as far as the facts. I did not. In fact Mohammad pointed me to many things that I linked to. Noone else other than Turretin and James White through his blog. It takes a lot of time, but it's not difficult. Just time consuming.

The Squirrel said...

Tim Rogers said...
"Squirrel,

Before you try to correct someone you need to come out of hiding. Posting facts anonymously is tantamount to lying.
"

Tim,

It seems that you didn't follow the link to my profile, as, if you had, you would see that I am decidedly NOT anonymous.

Here. I'll save you the trouble. My profile reads:

"GENE CLYATT
MONTANA, UNITED STATES
I am a Christian man in a pagan culture who believes that the Bible actually means what it says, and is clear about what it means. I love my wife and my daughter, and am an elder in my church
"

Further, if you follow the link from my blog to my local Southern Baptist Association, you would find the following:

"SUPERIOR BAPTIST CHURCH
502 Pike Ave.
(across the street from Eva Horning Park )
PO Box 850
Superior, MT 59972
*Gene Clyatt, Teaching Elder
Sunday School - 9:30 AM
Sunday Worship - 10:30 AM
"

I'm currently teaching through Daniel, if you, or anyone else, would care to join us some Sunday.

Squirrel

Lydia said...

"Perhaps you missed the sentence: "I'm reticent about attributing the divine miracle of conversion to the influence of any human being, but to the degree that any of us can go about claiming credit for "fruit," these two belong to Emir Caner." Did you catch that lengthy introductory clause"

Yes, I caught it. Still do not know how it makes any difference. How can one have both good and rotten fruit? Jesus said a good tree CANNOT bear bad fruit.

I still maintain that men should not take any credit or even be mentioned when it comes to salvation. We are simply broken vessels with a message of truth. We deserve NO credit for speaking truths that leads to salvation.

There are NO great men of God. Just broken sinners who should be growing in Holiness saved by the same grace.

I am reminded you are a trustee of the seminary where Patterson is president. I take that into consideration when reading your apologetics for the Caners.

Thy Peace said...

For readers who missed Tim Rogers (TimR2) comments at Baptist Life Forums ...

Burleson gets threatened....

Tim Rogers and SBC Today.

Debbie Kaufman said...

Read Lydia's comment over and over again. That is the heart of what we should be remembering here.

Tim: I knew who Squirrel was without even digging. See? Clicking on links is a good thing. :)

Good answer Gene.

Thy Peace said...

Thoughts of Francis Turretin > Compare and Contrast.

Dr. Ergun Caner (actual quotation): "All Christian ministers have critics. Some mean well; Others are just corrosive. U can't shut them up, but U CAN SHUT THEM OUT." (source).

A Squirrel in Babylon > More Questions in Search of Answers.

Richard said...

Bill---perhaps you are correct. BTW, my last name is Joiner. Hope you are well, my old friend. (grin)

Paul Burleson said...

Tim,

I do not know you and will not try a guess as to motivation. But when you say stuff like this this..."because of past relationship and defenses of WB I do not believe for one minute he and he daddy are not behind this mess)you certainly are misinforming the public where you got this material"...you are not only misinformed but ill-advised.

I will say it to you as clear and unequivocally as I possible can a final time.[Wade is out so I'll speak for him here.] Wade nor I gave Debbie the information on the one under discussion and charged with deceit on her post that day [Dr. Caner] and I will leave it there for the Lord to "judge between me and thee" as did David who spoke those words to the one who sought to kill him. [1 Sam. 24:12]

This is the last time I will speak of this issue with you personally on any blog [unless Providence intervenes] having already silenced my own blog about this very thing.

I long for repentance on the part of any and all of us who may be grieving the Spirit here with whatever strife and ill-spirit may exist. May it be so from the perpetrator to those of us who might be involved in any fashion in the aftermath.

But I do believe the truth is to be [has been] spoken in love and brokenness by most I know who are concerned and needs to be experienced and exhibited by us all, including you and others who read and disagree.

Tom Kelley said...

Tim Rogers said...
Squirrel,

Before you try to correct someone you need to come out of hiding. Posting facts anonymously is tantamount to lying.

Blessings,
Tim

Tue Apr 27, 01:10:00 PM 2010


Aside from the fact that anyone could determine The Squirrel's identity by looking at his blog, this statement is just plain silly. Anonymity is in no way deceit.

-----
Tom

Kevin M. Crowder said...

Joe Blackmon,

You and I need to take a vacation to Arizona...turkey hunting ya know? ;)

While I think you are wrong on the Caner issue, I finds your wit and sarcasm perfectly Christian. You have a raw communication style and I find that refreshing. I filter out the rash remarks as I know they are just you posting in the heat of the moment. I am sure most on here have never once read your expositional posts on your own blog. Your commitment to the teaching of God's Word is commendable. You my friend have earned the right to opine.

The situation we are faced with here is a strange bird. We have Dr. Caner caught in lies, then we have the Body (me included) throwing a brother under the bus--over and over again. We Southern Baptists do a great job of making sure the dead corpse is thoroughly dead!

Anyway, I am sorry you have been beat up as you have. But here is the reason why. You see, the piety of some demands retaliation against all who make them feel less important.

Anyway, none of this is as important as it seems. Vengeance is the Lord's.

So, wanna go shrink the 2012 electorate? :)

Lydia said...

"Before you try to correct someone you need to come out of hiding. Posting facts anonymously is tantamount to lying."


So we must surmise the anonymous writer of Hebrews "posting facts" was lying... according to this logic?

Wade Burleson said...

Tim Rogers,

You and others want others to believe that I have no influence in the SBC, constantly telling people I have none. Now, you want everyone to believe I am orchestrating some grand conspiracy to get Ergun Caner out of the SBC. You can't have it both ways.

I can assure you that the truth is spoken here by my father. The real issue is deception that is being called out. The fact that you wish to deflect is understandable but ultimately a failed objective.

I am continuing my trip. Without access to a computer for the reminder of the night!

Go Thunder!

Joe Blackmon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Debbie Kaufman said...

Jeff: You and I are going to disagree. And it is not true that most Southern Baptists do not give a rip. That is what you and Tim would like to convey, but trust me, it's not true.

As for Kevin: Unbelievable. Absolutely unbelievable.

Jeff said...

Debbie, I was not going to respond again, but I do want to know what makes you think most SBC'ers really care about this. I hope it is not the "hits" you are receiving on your page. The hits are just repeats coming and going. If you can't to the church I served and ask.. They wouldn't have a clue what you talking about.

Tim Rogers said...

Wade,

You and others want others to believe that I have no influence in the SBC... When have you seen me write, or imply in my writings any such of a thing? You haven't. So, once again you have another issue that you need to help me get straight.

When you said that, were you mis-speaking or were you intentionally telling a lie? Now there are three issues within this one post and comment stream you need to help us understand.

First, were you mis-speaking or telling a lie when you said Debbie's blog was the first you heard of Dr. Caner's issues when in fact you posted about his issues in a comment stream 2 days before her blog post? Second, were you mis-speaking or telling a lie when you changed your statement to saying that it was the first time it was confirmed, when in fact you linked to a FB site along with a website where much of the allegations came and the comment stream revealed a link to James White with the same video that Debbie used in her blog article. Third, you now accuse me of purporting I have said you do not have any influence in the SBC.

So Wade, you have now either mis-spoke or lied about these three issues. Which is it?

Tim

Tom Parker said...

KMC:

For you to defend Joe B. is beyond the pale. Please tell all of us you were just funin.

I have not seen anyone here attacking Joe??

Kevin M. Crowder said...

@ Tom Parker,

Not funnin'....a test? Maybe.

@ Deb,

Had I said something negative toward Joe I might be still be on your team. But I chose to stand up for one with a valid opinion. I don't think you or Tom would talk to me that way face to face. That is the problem with the Internet. Btw, I still have a big problem with Dr. Caner--but I am beginning to think my motive and your's are different.

@ Joe B,

I never said that all homosexuals who claim Christ (or their version of Christ) will see eternal life. In fact I would guess most won't. But what I am saying is that people who have been regenerated can and do live in temporal states of rebellion. Sadly some might even die in that state, but glory to the Son of God, He will make all things new! He will take away our flesh and our pain and our suffering and replace them with a glorified bodies wrapped in a robes of righteousness. I think even you would agree that when Scripture calls out people as not having eternal life in the context of specific sins that it is because they have not the Son of God, not because they have remaining sin. Anyway, happy to have a real conversation amidst the rancor of the day.

Blessings to you brother!

K

PS: I deactivated my fb account for the summer due to a high work load and school. 'Tiz better for me...and for all who might have to hear me rant... :)

Your Home Town said...

Mr. Rogers,

It is quite clear to me that you are in need of some serious help. Seek counsel immediately.

Debbie Kaufman said...

Jeff: It seems that you listen to neither reason or fact therefore you will just have to trust me on this one. :) And Ergun doesn't just mingle with Southern Baptists. Christians all over the world and in general are concerned. Very. Trust me on that too. :) Just do.

Kevin: I have stated my motive. It seems you like to stir the waters of twisting. So be it. As I said I don't answer to you or anyone. And my motives and conscience are pure before God. I would advise you not to churn with the waves Kevin. Find where you stand and stick with it. Your moving back and forth is making me sea sick. As do a lot of things I have been learning in the past 3 months.

Tim: No lying, no misspeaking the simple adulterated truth. I personally don't care whether you believe that or not, though I suspicion you do, it would just strengthen the facts against Dr. Caner, which you have yet to answer or deal with. That should be telling in and of itself.

Byron said...

I'm just about sick of this issue, myself. But Jeff, if someone is part of the SBC, should they not be interested in what concerns a leader of the SBC? I'm nominally SBC at best, and I care. I want to see this mess straightened out. And, I naively thought that if credibility problems arose with a well-known SBC leader, that most if not all those in the SBC would respond by seeking the truth, as opposed to shooting the messengers and circling the wagons while crying foul. Obviously, I wasn't paying attention at the time when the likes of Gilyard and Warnke and others, I'm sure, were a big deal.

Not that I'm really a part of the SBC in any meaningful way, but I'm really disappointed with a lot of folks in our fine convention. I can only imagine the loss of confidence and respect elsewhere. Tim G uses all the right words, "sad" and "pathetic" and all that, only he isn't applying them to the proper subjects (those being the willful refusal to acknowledge and consider the evidence presented, and falsely construing this as a religious conflict or an obstacle to evangelism, when in truth it goes much deeper than that, with serious consequences, into the area of morality and integrity).

If morality and integrity are so important, why aren't they being defended by resolving the issues at hand by the people who are most able to do so and so far are unwilling?

Jeff said...

Byron, As I wrote earlier. I think the truth about Egar is between two extremes. Debbie is not rational in her thinking, neither is the other side.

Debbie, Very disappointed you did not show proof that most SBC'ers care about this. In my next of the woods, most people have no ideal who he is or who you are. They don't care, and guess what I don't talk about it.

It is time to build that BIG ship and send the entire group to Mars to do mission work. They will discover life goes on. The SBC will cont to plant seeds of the Gospel.

Joe Blackmon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jeff said...

Bryon, You are not a good example of careful study. I remember when you jump all over me for appearing to be posting under two different names. Remember that? It was discovered that there was no deceive on my part, just a matter of how I was signing into the blog. The only reason you know about this is you read blogs like Wade or Debbie. It is time to move on, but she is OCD about it. She has done the same thing Wade has done on other issues. She has go overboard and thus hurt her own cause.

Tom Parker said...

Jeff:

I'm disappointed that you do not view this issue as a very serious one. You appear to me to be quite flippant about all of this. It appears to me you just want this one to go away. It is not going to.

Also, why say what you said to Bryon?

You said:"Bryon, You are not a good example of careful study."

Not nice, Jeff.

Are you attempting to change the attention away from the bigger issue?

Rick Boyne said...

I'm not intending for this to be a point of contention but merely a couple of observations by the mildly interested:

1)I doubt there are more than 10 SBC people in my entire association who have heard of either Caner and probably fewer who are aware of this entire situation.

2)If the Caners have committed this deception, then they should be called on the carpet, and if they are indeed men of integrity, then they should "make it right" (whatever that means)

3)The average SBC'r would be appalled to know that a Muslim man had been partnered with by Christians to expose/bring down a fellow Christian. (to me, that smacks of the last days prophesies)

4)You guys DO know the world is watching you fight like kindergartners, don't you?

By the way we treat each other, people will know that we are followers of Jesus.

Anyone who reads this comment thread will recognize that there aren't too many Christ Followers commenting here, at least judging by the way you are treating each other.

You should be ashamed.

But, having been a reader of the comments of this blog for years, and knowing it's the same ones over and over who show a contempt for the Scripture and a contempt for fellow believers, I know you won't be ashamed.

On this side of Heaven, we have to live with each other's faults and failures; but folks, the Bible says we reap what we sow. You realize you WILL answer for the way you deal with each other, right?

I wrote about this on my own blog back on Feb 23 (http://www.rickboyne.com/2010/02/ergun-caner-james-white-tom-ascol.html)

Surely there is enough grace to go around? Exercise it.

Rick Boyne
Pastor
Immanuel Southern Baptist Church
Wagoner, OK

rick@immanuelsouthern.com

Joe Blackmon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Rick Boyne said...

@Joe,

I see you missed my point.

Byron said...

Jeff,

Well, my skin grows thicker, and my concern for other's opinions about me grows thinner.

I remember it differently: I asked very pointed questions, because of what appeared to be happening. Yes, the questions were not friendly. But, as soon as you answered to my satisfaction, I apologized, and the issue was dealt with. Had you been guilty, you would have received no apology from me. I do not feel that I did you any wrong except perhaps not giving you the benefit of the doubt, which these days it's usually safer not to do. So, I apologized for it, and moved on. Why bring it up again?

You have a point that the only reason I know about these things is because of Wade's and Debbie's blogs. That just underscores my reasoning, and points out what Tom Parker said, that you do not take this issue seriously. Like it or not, it is not a trivial matter, and like it or not, it is not going away. If your happiness depends on it going away, well, sorry to break it to you, but you will just have to trod through the mud and mire like the rest of us, miserable as it is. And, if you truly don't care, why are you here talking about it and saying that the rest of SBC does not care?

Sorry, I am in a "No Bovine Scatology" mood this morning.

The Squirrel said...

Rick Boyne:

What should we do about church leaders whoare unrepentant & continue in sin?

"Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging, doing nothing from partiality.
(1 Timothy 5:19-21 ESV Emphasis mine)


"For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. 'Purge the evil person from among you.'"
(1 Corinthians 5:12-13 ESV Emphasis mine)

I do not see any Biblical warrant for standing aside and doing nothing in the face of such well documented deliberate falsehoods on the part of a high-profile spokesperson for Southern Baptists. (And, yes, I know he holds no official position within the SBC, per se, but Dr. Caner is very much in the limelight & is identified with the SBC.)

What are we to do? Just sweep it under the rug? Ignore what's going on in the hope that it'll just goes away? Unrepentant public dishonesty should be dealt with openly. It's the "back rooms" & "Good Ol' Boys" stuff that gets us into situations like this.

Why is all this taking place on the interwebsy? Idealy, Ergun Caner should have publicaly repented when he was first confronted with his sin, but he didn't. Liberty University should have conducted this investigation when they were first made aware of his "embellishments," but they didn't. Should we all just say, "Oh, well..." and just stand aside?

Or should we raise our voices in protest of the evil in our midst?

Squirrel

Rick Boyne said...

@ Squirrel,

You seem to have missed my point as well.

My point wasn't necessarily about the Caners, but about how people are dealing with each other regarding this ugly situation.

Just because the situation is horrible, doesn't mean that we have to be horrible to each other.

However, if you will notice that in my point 2, I said that If the Caners have committed this deception, then they should be called on the carpet: My protest is HOW this is being accomplished throughout the blogosphere.

Personally speaking, I think that if these allegations are indeed true, then Ergan, at least, should be fired from his post at Liberty.

But rather than bashing each other on blogs, why aren't people writing Liberty with demands for justice?

I'll go ahead and take a shot at answering my own question. I think people don't write Liberty because it is much easier to spew vile on a comment thread than it is to sit down and compose a thoughtful letter to a board of trustees.

If the situation with the Caners bothers everyone this much,then why is everyone wasting time debating it on a blog instead of taking real action?

While partnering with a Muslim man to accomplish this task isn't a path I personally would have pursued, and while I have nothing against Debbie or Wade, at least they are trying to do something.

And, let's be clear here; I'm not taking sides. If I'm forced to take sides, I choose Jesus.

And Jesus said that you'll know His disciples by their love for each other.

I'm not seeing any love.

The Squirrel said...

Rick Boyne said...

"My point wasn't necessarily about the Caners, but about how people are dealing with each other regarding this ugly situation... Just because the situation is horrible, doesn't mean that we have to be horrible to each other."

Ah, okay. I did miss your point. You were saying, "Don't talk about it this way." But I heard it as, "Don't talk about it at all." My bad. Sorry. I agree with you, we need to keep this civil. For my part, I have endeavored to do so.

"Personally speaking, I think that if these allegations are indeed true, then Ergan, at least, should be fired from his post at Liberty."

I couldn't agree more. Liberty University's accademic integrity demands it. And the longer they wait before taking action, the more shredded that integrity becomes.

"But rather than bashing each other on blogs, why aren't people writing Liberty with demands for justice?"

I have tried to contact Liberty University & Dr. Caner both, although I had not done so at the time I wrote my first blog article. I know that others have tried to contact them as well. The attempts that I am aware of have been met with stone-walling and obfuscation.

"While partnering with a Muslim man to accomplish this task isn't a path I personally would have pursued, and while I have nothing against Debbie or Wade, at least they are trying to do something."

I don't believe that anyone has "partnered with a Muslim man" to do anything. As I understand what happened, Dr. James White was looking for copies of Dr. Caner's debates for review and critique on Dr. White's The Dividing Line webcast and was having a hard time finding anything. He put out a call for help in locating the debates, and was then contacted by Mr. Kahn. Mr. Kahn had enough evidence to raise serious questions as to Dr. Caner's honesty, so Dr. White and a team of volonteers began to investigate. Others picked up on it, and that is what got the whole ball rolling. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on my recollections.)

"And Jesus said that you'll know His disciples by their love for each other."

Jesus also said, "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector." (Matthew 18:17 ESV)

Squirrel

Bill said...

RB

Does the New testament teach any of the following?

1. to have no fellowship with workers of iniquity.

2. By their fruit you would know them

3. Expose the works of darkness

4. Confront evil and evil doers

5. Publicly call out those who proclaim themselves to be Ministers of the Gospel (BTW, check Titus for this one)

The greatest loving thing that we can do for a "Brother" is to help them see their sin (hoping they repent). Also, please read about what the NT says about helping a brother who is caught up in sin (James, I think--"If a bother is caught sinning......)"

Grace in Christ

Rick Boyne said...

@ Squirrel,

I'm not intent on insisting to use the word "partnering". Maybe that was too strong; maybe not. I used it because that was my perception of what has happened.

But, you are right.... it is they WAY it is being done that I have the problem with. And the way people are being treated in the process.

@ Bill,

I'm honestly not sure why you addressed that line of questioning to me. I thought I adequately addressed your concern when I said, "My point wasn't necessarily about the Caners, but about how people are dealing with each other regarding this ugly situation. in the Wed Apr 28, 12:02:00 PM 2010 time stamp comment.

I'll be happy to answer your question, but I'm not sure why you are asking it. Please read my first comment at Wed Apr 28, 10:51:00 AM 2010 and then my reply to Squirrel's concerns at Wed Apr 28, 12:02:00 PM 2010.

I think we are actually on the same page here. I'm simply questioning the technique used to employ those principles set forth.

Bennett Willis said...

While I think that writing Liberty would be a good thing, Liberty has made it clear that they are following the plan that Dr. Caner is following: Issue a rather general and vague statement about misstatements, clean up the biography and hunker down. We have not heard anything on this topic from Dr. Caner and Liberty in weeks (with the exception of the cleaned and stripped biography that acknowledges the truth of the situation). Their expectations apparently are that the complaints will go away and they won’t have to make any other changes, repent, or be officially embarrassed. When this is their approach, writing them is probably not much use unless you already had a relationship with them.
And if no one had bothered to defend Dr. Caner, this plan might have worked. However when “supporters” defend things that were clearly not correct, false statements that are documented repeatedly over years of recorded public speaking, writing, and book covers—well, that is easy pickings and fuel that keeps the flame burning brightly. We are not talking about shifts in emphasis on a story to help the emotional impact but about errors of fact that were clearly manufactured to produce a persona that did not exist before them.
My personal plan is not to buy any books on Muslim issues by the Dr’s Caner. I will also make sure that they do not speak to any meeting that I have any influence with—and should they be speakers at a meeting that I happen to attend, I will wait until they come to the podium/pulpit and quietly leave. If I had a son or daughter attending Liberty or were a graduate from that institution, I would be more active in writing about this embarrassment—but neither of these situations fit. So I do what I can in the most civil way I can. This approach is not likely to produce quick results but it will prevail if we each do what we can.

Bennett Willis

Debbie Kaufman said...

Rick: I have so much respect for you and do love you as a Christian brother. I knew you before you were the minister of Wagoner through blogging, so I can give you my answer. You may not accept it, but I will answer for myself.

It has been tried. Many have tried to contact Dr. Caner privately before I knew of the story. He did not answer the questions, Muslims that tried to contact him, he said were sending him hate mail and attacks, which I saw some of the emails and it was not true. Publicly is the only way I was going to go. He can't lie about what I sent him, other people need to know that he is lying about his past because he is not going to stop or repent. Just the retaliation that he is launching by John Ankerburg taking down the video that is one of the most damning to Ergun's persona, should be proof enough that public is the only way to go.

Ergun is a public figure and therefore I feel strongly this should be done in public. Private is not and has not worked. This for me is a people need to know what kind of person Ergun Caner is. The rest of the reasons I have already stated on my blog.

As for partnering with Mohammad, thank you for the way you have worded it. I have partnered with him, and I am proud to say I have. He is the only one who has been honest through this whole thing. He has told the truth. We as Christians and Baptists have not. He and I became friends through this, and that I am proud of too. I don't know what more to say on that one.

Thank you Rick. I always appreciate your heart even when we disagree, which is seldom.

Debbie Kaufman said...

By the way I am Partial Preterist.

I might also add to lie about those without Christ and to alienate them is a much worse sin in my opinion. We are the ones sinning each time we sweep this under the rug, cave into strong arm tactics knowing that wrong is being done. And say nothing. We have done wrong to the Muslims in this case, they have not done wrong to us. So I disagree that this has anything to do with end times. It has everything to do with doing the right thing and to keep doing the right thing until I feel in my heart I have done enough. I am not near there yet.

Rick Boyne said...

Thanks, Debbie. I do appreciate your answer. Like I said before, it isn't that path that I would have taken, but I can only be responsible for me! :)

The thing that actually provoked me into making my original comment was the un-Christlike way I saw people speaking to each other on this comment thread.

That bothers me.

That bothers me as much as the Caners' apparent deception.

The point I hoped to have made was, "the world is watching". If you don't believe me, just look at the bottom of the comment thread where it says "Links to this post".

My comment about the last days didn't have anything to do with Muslims/Christians....

I'm glad to know that we can disagree without name calling! ;-)

Bennett Willis said...

Just to see "what I was not going to buy", I went to Amazon. There I found a quote from the book (Chapter 13 of the "look inside" information on case studies, I think) that Dr. Caner wrote with Dr. Brunson. It goes something like this, "The authors emphatically insist that private sin, private confession--public sin, public confession." Since all the surrounding discussion is not included, I cheerfully jumped to the conclusion that it might be applicable to this problem--and I am sure that someone with the whole book will correct me if I am wrong. Finding this caused me to laugh aloud--about the only thing funny I have found in this whole discussion. [http://www.amazon.com/Why-Churches-Die-Diagnosing-Poisons/dp/0805431810#reader_0805431810]

Bennett Willis

Thy Peace said...

Ministry of Reconciliation [Debbie Kaufman] > The Email Campaign By Doctor Ergun Caner Using His Supposed Persecution Is In Full Swing.

Bill said...

RB

I ask for your forgiveness in how that question was addressed. It seemed to me tha you questioning whether or not it was right to hold people accountable for their actions.

Please forgive me for that!

Grace in Christ

Bill

Romans 5:1

Rick Boyne said...

@Bill,

No problem, bro! No, let's hold folks accountable! By all means!

But let's be civil when we do.

Thy Peace said...

MIRELE'S MISCELLANY > Should Ergun Caner lose his job?.

BARTHOLOMEW’S NOTES ON RELIGION > Ex-Muslim President of Liberty University Under Fire over Details of Biography.

ml said...

So would it be wrong to ask for Ergun to return the money we paid him for his speaking engagement at our church?

ml said...

Here is a sad but true ironic quote from none other than . . . well read the quote and you will see. "...the Christian community needs to become more vigilant in not just halting these rumors, but even running truthful accounts back in the direction from where they emerge." Focus on the Family, 1999-AUG-4

Simply listen to the very beginning of the Focus on the Family broadcast and Ergun claims to have come to America in 1978 having been raised in Turkey.

When I called them and suggested there were holes in his testimony I was told that "I simply had anecdotal evidence then?"

Sad . . . the broadcast certainly is not doing their part to end a Legend of an Urban Persona.

ml said...

I must also make notice in light of my previous post it appears that Focus on the Family has pulled Ergun's testimony from their website. Bravo to them if in fact they have.

Sameh said...

Hello,
I'm a Muslim myself, and I realize that maybe I have no business commenting here since this is a private Christian discussion about a fellow Christian, but I just wanted to say that as a Muslim I do admire the fact that you as a community are openly discussing this matter, it says a lot for your honesty and integrity. Don't get me wrong, I'm secure in my faith. But having seen and read a lot of Ergun's works it always frustrates me how he tries to pass himself as an ex-devout Muslim when it is so obvious from the things he says that he was never devout, and some would even say "never even a Muslim". Believe me, if you're looking to debate with Muslims in an attempt to bring them over to your faith, then listening to what Ergun and Emir say about Islam and repeating it to Muslims with the hope of "exposing" something they didn't know will only get you laughed at. They guy when once asked couldn't recite the Islamic testimony of faith, which every 5 year old Muslim would know by heart. instead he recited the first two verses of the first Sura of the Quran. That was like an ex-Christian saying that the holy trinity is Peter, Paul and Mary.

Just a thought...
Peace,
Sameh

Sameh said...

P.S. He did a very poor job at reciting those two verses to boot (which are very very very basic knowledge for any Muslim since we recite them in every prayer).

Peace again,
Sameh

terriergal said...

Is he complicit? Absolutely. So is everyone who has known about these lies and done nothing.

F Y I said...

As a Ga Baptist and knowing how these men operate within this dysfunctional body work,

I sent Emir Caner the following letter to him at Truett here in GA which IS a GA BAPTIST Convention ran institution;

From: Doug [mailto:doug.pittman@att.net]
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010
6:42 PM
To: 'ecaner@truett.edu'
Subject: Your story and Bio



Please send me a bio / story on your history as a Muslim. I am interested in hearing how you became Baptist along with your brother.

Please email asap or send me a link on your websites.

Thanks

Doug Pittman
doug@dougpittman.com

TO DATE NOTHING BUT CRICKETS;

I plan on hitting the G B C very herd very soon and I am working with a reporter to bust em again.

Doug

Dk said...

Sameh said:

"That was like an ex-Christian saying that the holy trinity is Peter, Paul and Mary."

Try Allah, Jesus and Mary, and you will have the same mistake that is in the Quran! So Dr Ergun Caner was about as ignorant as whoever wrote the Quran using your criteria, which I actually agree with.

As a former apologist to Muslims, I remember my Dad went to a Christian bookstore and sent me a DVD with Dr Ergun Caner. I was never very impressed with the emotionalism, story telling etc. I also see basic mistakes with his knowledge of Islam, and a definitie significance placed on his apparent fake testimony over use of argument or plain proclamation of the Gospel.

It's also rather pathetic reading I think it was a "Tim Rodger" attack a person (Wade) for not being specific enough in his wording, and then giving a laughable defense of Caner. And then attack Squirrel as "annyomoous" while refusing to address the facts she presented.

Tim your ad-hom isn't working.

More importantly your red herring doesn't work.

Your fake "have a great evening!" and "blessings" is also a diservice to sincerity.

Mike Yarbrough said...

Good evening one and all...as a trustee at Truett, from what I know, I have full faith in the integrity of Dr. Emir Caner...One of the previous posters seemed to be saying, and correct me please if I am wrong, that the Caner brothers supported the GCRTF, which I know from personal conversations with Emir that he does not support it (and neither do I).
I am not sure about what the Caner brothers have done or not done, I am still reading all the post here as well as other sources, so I cannot speak intelligently about the veracity of what is being said about them, but I do find that the words that have been "spoken" through this blog give Christianity a bad name...aren't we supposed to be Christians? Followers of Christ? Would He have said some of the things posted here?

Anonymous said...

@dk

If someone gives a reference, I like to check it before I respond to it. I'm not well-informed about Islamic texts, but that is where Google can be so helpful. I believe your dismissal of Sameh's Trinity analogy may have been either disingenuous or ill-informed (or both). Any clear reading of the passage of the Koran you quote that mentions Mary, in full context, is very clearly a challenge aimed at the Catholic practice of placing Mary as an intercessor between believers and God in Catholic prayer. Catholics offer direct prayers to Mary, as in: "Holy Mary, Mother of God", also confusingly deeming Mary "holy" in the process. The context makes it obvious that it is this Romanist notion of the elevation of Mary to the status of an intercessor in Christian prayer that is being challenged. It perfectly clear to even a non-expert in the field such as myself that this not a reference to the Holy Trinity of non-Romanist Christian doctrine, as you seem to suggest in your attempt to impugn the validity of Sameh's, in my view, rather apt analogy.

Anonymous said...

WORTHY IS THE LAMB
HOLY HOLY HOLY
IS THE LORD ALMIGHTY
WHO WAS AND IS
AND IS YET TO COME
AMEN.

Bennett Willis said...

Nearly four years have passed since most of the comments were added to this thread. Things have not changed much. Some new people have found the problem with the Caners testimony and are bothered by it. The same defenders attack these new people just as they did people four years ago. Their style has not changed at all. But the problem has not changed much either so maybe that is reasonable.

Byron Smith said...

What a difference four years makes. When I last commented, I was a sincere, devout Christian, but beginning to question my beliefs. Now I have completely left Christianity and embraced atheism as the only alternative I personally can find. And this business about Caner still bothers me (though it played no role in my deconversion). I am especially bothered by this because I have known, both personally and online, many fine Christians who honestly and truly try to live what they believe and do so with integrity. If there is such a thing as sin (and there is, at least humanly speaking), then the Caners have sinned more grievously than I ever did by making a mockery out of integrity and perseverance. And I am now an atheist, and I probably should rejoice in this hypocrisy, and if it were not for the good Christian people I have known who suffer directly or indirectly because of this, I would. This is just truly sad.

Bennett Willis said...

Byron, the EC saga is interesting. I can't think of anyone who has changed their mind and commented about how the conversion happened. With the recent lawsuits, EC has dug his hole deeper and deeper.

I wonder what EC's supporters truly think about his speeches over the years. Can anyone really be so insensitive to facts that they deep down can support EC as being correct in what he has said about himself? Or can anyone truly believe that the facts don't matter? I don't understand how they could, but I have seen people take strange positions and hold with them regardless.

Interestingly, EC seems to have cleaned up his story. Many of the talks have been cleared off the Net and biographies have been corrected.

Best wishes to you.

Byron Smith said...

Thank you, Bennett Willis, and best wishes to you as well. Though I have not stated this publicly, I have returned to Christianity. However, I am an extremely liberal Christian (which is not something I wish to debate here out of respect for Wade Burleson, whose blog I always enjoy reading). I am not sure exactly what I believe, honestly. But I still cannot stand hypocrisy, whether it is from EC or anyone else. Christian or atheist, we should all strive to be as genuine people as we can be, and also strive to be humanists (small-case "h") and do everyone good. The way I see it, we should honor God by being good stewards of his creation, and also love our neighbor as ourselves, and let hypocrisy and deception be foreign to us as individuals concerned for the greater good.