"I went to Jerusalem to become acquainted (Gk. istoria) with Cephas" - Paul's words from Galatians 1:18.

Comments For This Post Are Open: A Request for Answers to Specific Questions

Mohammad Kahn, the man who has posted 17 videos pointing out various descrepancies in the testimony of Dr. Ergun Caner regarding Caner's own biographical background, educational credentials and Muslim experiences, has requested answers to several questions. He has emailed me the questions, and I felt it appropriate to open up the comment section to provide answers to his questions from Christians at large. I remind you, before you answer, that how you answer represents more than just you as a person--you are representing the One to whom you owe everything. Let's honor Him in our responses:

Mohammed asks:

1) "Why are man Christians attacking me as if I have done something wrong? I receive countless hate mails through YouTube regarding Ergun, accusing me of being jealous of his status and that I just want to bring him down because he is a “convert” – this is not true.

2) Why are some Christians saying that my website is an “Islamic Hate Site” even though it isn’t?

3) Many Christians have been telling their brethren to not rely on information provided by fakeexmuslims.com as if the information is diseased. Why?

4) Many Christians have been telling people that they should not be taking what a Muslim says as truth. This is rather astonishing, because in my mind, as long as the information is verifiable and correct, then it is truth regardless of the beliefs and practices of the person providing the information. Is this not right?

5) I have been labelled as an “angry Muslim”. I am not an angry person at all, even if you see my videos you will see some jokes and laughter within it. I am not angry at all. The only faith being affected by the likes of Ergun Caner is the spreading of the Christian faith. Muslims find him funny, just go and see the comments section on YouTube which reflects this.

Please understand when I say Christians in the context above, I am not referring to you. I am referring to those Christians who clearly do not possess the manners like that of a true Christian. My questions do not mean that I am upset or saddened in any way, in fact, it is quite the opposite, I find it funny , but my laughter does not negate the seriousness of the matter.
"

150 comments:

Bob Cleveland said...

Particularly among Baptists, I think we've cheapened grace so much (just walk the aisle, shake the hand, say the prayer, take the plunge, etc) that far too many don't feel that their lives must change, in order to be a disciple. And with such a huge percentage of Southern Baptists simply missing, it's self-evident we've done a poor job making disciples.

And how, without that, can we think we're Great Commission Christians?

And, how can we expect changed lives? At least, any more than a small percentage in whose lives God sovereignly moves.

Wade Burleson said...

Bob,

I agree with your spot on assessment.

I also find it interesting that Mohommad has a definition of Christian that includes an expectation of civil courtesy and "Christian" manners. He obviously believes many Christians who deal with him with respect and courtesy have this Christian spirit about them. Now compare that to Liberty Seminary's leadership calling those who show Mohammad civility and Christian courtesy "alleged" or "professing" Christians.

Something smells rotten in Denmark.

Clif Cummings said...

I quote a famous saying: "Those who choose to ignore history are destined to repeat it."
One would think that with shameful history of Darrell Gilyard's climb to fame within our convention that we would have learned not to make more of men than we do of the Gospel.

Rhology said...

Mohammed,
I am a member of an SBC church. We're not all nearly-brainwashed celebrity-worshipers. I'm sorry for what you've experienced at the hands of other so-called brethren of mine. I pray for the repentance of many in the SBC, not least Ergun Caner himself. His dance has gone from the bizarre to the merely pathetic.

WTJeff said...

I think much of it has to do with what Bob said. Because discipleship has suffered, we become too dependent on our leaders. When something negative comes out about that leader, instead of checking the validity of the claims, we attack because much of what we hold dear about our faith is tied up in that individual. Because we haven't become reproducing disciples, our security as believers are often caught up in the individual rather than our relationship with Christ. Defending the leader becomes almost like defending ourselves.

ml said...

Mohammed and Wade,
part of the problem is the heart. The NT says you will know them by the fruit of their lives or their work. I believe we have erronously made that = to some standard group behavior or expectation (which is more law) rather than a life that points to God's glory and a life that exudes grace. so we focus on symptoms rather than real heart need. this is why we see such hatred between religions. religion says who is right? but christianity says who is jesus? religion says what must i do? christianity says what did Christ do for me? religion says how much must i sacrifice and give? christianity says look at how big God's sacrifice was and how much we receive from him.

potentiallyKINETIC said...

I am a proud SBC pastor, but I also have friends of other faiths (i.e. Islam) and some of no faith (i.e. atheist, agnostic). An atheist friend recently posted the following on facebook:

"When I meet someone, and they say they're a Christian, I automatically think less of them..."

The post continued:

"if you're a Christian, don't be surprised by this--the same phenomenon occurs every time I tell someone I'm an atheist."

I can also recall a time in college where a Muslim friend asked me why she was the only person in her World Cultures class (which also had 29 Christians) who knew about Levitical food laws. I believe Bob Cleveland's assessment, though an embarrassing indictment, is spot-on. The time is long past for "disciples" who refuse to learn from their Teacher and Christians whose conduct/character does not reflect that of Jesus the Christ. I have no desire to point the finger at the shortcomings of leaders with motives of self-preservation (or even group preservation) and saving face. I merely implore Christ followers (especially those who would lead in ministry settings), as Paul did, to follow the leader--not on some cognitive journey toward mere orthodoxy, but on a completely transformational quest of discipleship. Only then will we learn from Jesus and live like Jesus. Grace and peace (or truth--that seems to work as well).

Philippians 2:1-11

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Mohammad - I apologize on behalf of SBC lay people everywhere on how you have been treated by some of our so-called "pastors" in the SBC.

But you see, we have a huge problem in modern evangelical Christianity, and that is the creation of rock-star, celebrity pastors. We love to find the latest and greatest pastor who speaks well, has a special "schtick" to their methods or their story. Some of these are men not called by God, but called by the lure of wealth and prestige. Those that have attacked you on the Internet mostly are men that are "wannabes"...they are the underlings that aren't at that rock-star level yet, but they adore and admire and almost worship the men that already have reached it.

What you did was expose one of them as a fraud. But worse than that, you dared to ask questions. One thing they don't like, is questions. You wanted Ergun Caner to answer questions about his past, about inconsistencies in his testimony.

But these rock-star celebrity preachers don't like questions. They view themselves as "priests" or "prophets" from God, and mere laypeople like me have no business asking them questions. Asking tough questions is akin to challenging God...they call tough questions and exposing of lies as "slander" and "gossip". And so they don't answer questions they don't like, and they seek to shut down dissenters in any number of ways.

Many of them, like Caner and some of his friends that promote him, are opportunists...Caner turned his father's Muslim and Turkish background into a money making enterprise built on a lie that Caner lived in Turkey and trained as a terrorist. That is not a god-called preacher, that is an opportunist.

If you do ask legitimate questions of these men as you have, they will find the most convenient excuse to dismiss you personally, and therefore your questions. You were easy to dismiss, because you are a Muslim. They can characterize you as a terrorist in waiting, an angry Muslim, someone who is used of the devil to bring down the "man of God". But really, it wasn't about you, it was about your questions. Now that he is exposed, notice the one thing they will not do: answer the questions. Caner will not answer the questions about his past.

If one of these rock-star celebrity preachers is asked questions of an anonymous emailer, they spit at the email and throw it away and preach against anonymous email. If its an anonymous blogger, they will seek his identity in any way possible so they can cast him away, and denounce him as a sociopath, a coward, and seek to call blogging a sin. If you ask questions like Wade did with your name and they don't like the questions, they will attack you personally and castigate you.

Sad, but this is the way it is.

But the good news: us Christian laypeople are wising up to the antics of these men, thanks to the power of the pen on blogs. They can't control the messages in the blogs, and thus their house of cards is starting crumble.

What these men understand is the language of money. As we stop giving to their temples, and start doing what Christ commanded us to do, then they will lose their power. It will take time, but that day is fast approaching.

And let me say this also: the men who attacked you are the small, small minority of pastors in the SBC. Most are humble men, called of God, and would love the opportunity to tell you their TRUE, unembellished conversion story to Christ, and instead of attacking you they would tell you that Christ loves you and died for you, and they would pray for you.

I thank you for beating the drum of the lies of Ergun Caner as you have done for so long. There are many examples in the Bible of God using unsual people to expose sin and wrong. It took us a while, but we finally figured Caner out, and unless he humbles himself and repents of his pride, he will have a very hard fall. And therefore he is deserving of our prayers.

mokhan247 said...

Are those people pastors?!!!?? really?

Rhology said...

Mohammed, which "those people" are you asking about?

:-) Sorry, I don't understand.

Aussie John said...

Wade,

Bob has hit the nail on the head. I would simply say that those who really are genuine recipients of saving grace will show that grace as a fruit in their dealings with others, even with those with whom they disagree.

Your Dad's recent blog article is a good example.

I commend both you and he.

James Hunt said...

Mr. Kahn,

When a person's argument is weak sometimes it's easy to attack the person's character who has the opposing view. As you probably know, that's called an ad hominem attack.

It's a sure sign of weakness when folks dodge honest, worthwhile questions and instead revert to personal attacks.

As long as they label you as a terrorist or hatemonger then they can discount you and discard your questions - even if such labeling is unwarranted.

Speaking of labeling: What was the prophet John the Baptist's perspective regarding Isa? Why did he say of Isa, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world," and, "there is one coming after me (Isa) whose sandal I am not worthy to loose."

It seems that Isa has been labeled by some as merely a good teacher or a prophet in a long line of prophets; however, what did John think of him? What did Isa himself claim? Did not the Jews kill Isa because he claimed to be one with the divine Father- thus making himself out to be God?

A good teacher would not lie. A faithful prophet would not mislead or be mislead. A wise teacher would not be a lunatic.

Could it be that the only proper label for Isa is Lord?

Salaam Alaykum in and through Isa.

Darrell said...

Sir, I am embarrased by those who call themselves Christians and act like this. I think the Word of God says it allabout these types of religious people....

1 John 2:4 The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 4:20 If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar.

Math 7---BY THEIR FRUIT THEY WILL BE KNOW AND A GOOD TREE CANNOT BEAR
BAD FRUIT.

The key here is "cannot" bear bad fruit. so what does that say about the trees that are spewing the ungodliness at you.

Joe Blackmon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Wade Burleson said...

Joe Blackmon,

There are four young people from our church at Southwestern Theological Seminary. I recommend the Seminary often. I was on campus two weeks ago and had a wonderful time. By the way, it is not "Southwest" Baptist Seminary as you write it.

Ergun Caner is not an enemy. I have never even met him. But he is a brother in Christ who needs to be held accountable for his embellishments, particularly since he represents himself as a Southern Baptist.

Joe, you, too, should be held accountable for your lying--including the words of your preceding comment--but since you are not Southern Baptist, and you seem to enjoy speaking of those things of which you have NO knowledge, I simply wish you a graced filled day.

Smiling,

Wade

P.S. Your ridiculous comment (but for the last two paragraphs) reminds me why I am glad there are no longer comments on this site.

Joe Blackmon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Mohammad - meet Joe Blackmon.

He is one of the people that I was referring to.

While not a "pastor", he is a preacher of the gospel, and he is one of the most hate-spewing bloggers that demeans women, has called Wade the ugliest of names...and here you can read him completely misrepresenting Wade's views and his motives.

Of course Joe is not one of the rock-stars, he is just a guy who defends them at every opportunity. He would rather stay silent when a man heading a prominent seminary has been fraudulently misrepresenting his past to his audiences for 10 years...but regularly rakes Wade over the coals for tertiary theological differences.

This is the state of the SBC right now, and I'm sorry that you have to be exposed to this.

Check back later, you might get to catch him spewing his venom toward me. (he'll call me a coward for not using my name most likely).

Thy Peace said...

Joe Blackmon:

Pastor Wade does not police this comment stream to meet the strict doctrinal standards being set by some.

People are free to voice their opinions.

Just because comments are not challenged, does not mean they are being endorsed by Pastor Wade or that they automatically fit the standards of Pastor Wade's thinking.

If you really wish to know what Pastor Wade thinks and believes, I would seriously encourage you to listen to his sermons at Emmanuel Enid. You will find that the sermons are driven from the text of The Bible.

Church goers at Emmanuel are encouraged to check whatever Pastor Wade is teaching against The Bible and form once own conclusions.

Having different opinions is not wrong. It encourages people to check for themselves what is The Truth. In short to be Bereans.

mokhan247 said...

@Joe Blackmon.

You're a funny guy. I like you. Very entertaining indeed. Just so you know, I don't need you to share the Gospel with me, I have already read the Bible at my own initiative, I don't need you to stick it down my throat in the manner that I have seen many people like you do. Your methodology of delivering your message to Muslims is improper and illogical. What you must do is learn about us, read our scriptures (not anti-Islamic websites), understand them, then produce your arguments in a nice, presentable and logical way. You can't just tell somebody to believe in Jesus (pbuh) and then expect them to believe you. You must ensure that you have a clear, concise and logical approach, then we listen to you.

Regarding your statement of me being used. My information is freely available for anybody to use, there is no copyright, they can use me all they want. Our purpose is the same - to show Ergun as the fraud that he really is. Only they and God know whether they really care about me or not. I don't need your or anyone for that matter to tell me what to think.

Holly said...

Joe Blackmon,

Perhaps there is no point in "presenting the Gospel" if you do not live it.

That's sort of the entire point.

Mohammed,

Here's the answer. They don't know Jesus. Not really. And they feel threatened. And they don't know how to love people who are different than they are. I am so sorry.

Turretinfan said...

Mr. Khan:

As to (1), claiming that Dr. Caner is a "fake ex muslim" is wrong. He was the son of a Muslim man, raised in a Muslim family and by your religion's standards was a Muslim. I still don't support those who personally attack you in revenge.

2) The use of "hate site" is not defensible, in my opinion.

3) Some professing Christians see some falsehood (such as the claim that Dr. Caner was never a Muslim) and conclude that probably the whole site is tainted by error. I don't think that's a helpful attitude, but it is the reason they act as they do.

4) This is similar to (3). Furthermore, it has become somewhat well known that there is at least one school of Muslim dawah that relies on taqiyya - since many Christians don't know the difference between Shia and Sunni, they simply distrust all.

5) Some of the extreme comments you have made have sounded angry in text.

As you know, I have attempted to respond respectfully and honestly to your comments and to present the truth of the matter. I don't defend those (whether or not they call themselves Christians) who have taken a lower path.

Christiane said...

Hello Mr. Khan,

I was looking at the videos of Caner, and I got to thinking that the exaggerations/mis-information/lies were progressing so extremely that he must have sub-consciously wanted someone to stop him from doing all that, or he wouldn't have let people film him doing it.

I don't think he was surprised when he was caught out. Embarrassed? I'm sure. But he knew that, sooner or later, people would put two and two together and get four instead of, well, 'a trained Islamic terrorist'.

Well, it's out in the open now, and Caner can have a chance to resolve it or let it fester a while longer.

As for Liberty, I noticed that the letter to the students came from a staff member, rather than Falwell, so I'm thinking that is a curious development. (?)

Why were you attacked? Fear, embarrassment, reaction without consideration, failure to see the long-term ethical impact on everyone involved, so many reasons, none of them good.
Plus, people in this country (USA) are more familiar with Christianity and Judaism than with the Islamic faith. I'm Catholic and I don't know much about the Islamic faith other than having read some of the encyclicals of the popes to do with Catholic/Islamic relations, and also from listening to Queen Rania of Jordan speak about her faith after the attacks on 9/11.
Queen Rania was very moving in sharing her faith with Americans. I know she did much good.

Why did those Christians do what they did to you and Wade and Debbie?
There are so many things they don't understand.
They just don't understand.
If God wills. that may change.
I have hope.

Respectfully,
Christiane

Joe Blackmon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kevin M. Crowder said...

@Joe,

Openly gay folks CAN be Christians and many are. I assure you this and promise you this. Openly untruthful folks CAN be Christians as well. This I assure and promise you as well. You are my brother in the Lord and my Internet friend. Be nice in the Lord.

@Wade and Mohammad,

I am not quite sure what hornet's nest you'all have stirred up here but I have a feeling it has to do with the power packed Board of Trustees at Liberty. I mean check out the lineup...you mess with them and you have dug deep into the Southern Good Ol' Boy's club.

I think we all need to have much grace when dealing with sin in ministry. Trust me, I am an advocate of much grace indeed. But when a man's testimony is false and manipulative in order to persuade people of the power of the Gospel then friends this is more than just quenching the Spirit...this is spitting in His face. No doubt Dr. Caner is a wise academic of the faith, but his sin demands he resign, step back, and rethink his witness to the cross of our Lord.

I have linked to two of Wade's "Caner posts" on facebook recently, having brought his (Caner's) staunch anti-Calvinistic rhetoric to light before as well, only to receive much ridicule from folks in my own church. This man's fame runs far and deep...especially among the Youth Groups who have heard him.

I have lost at least one fb friend recently over this and my opposition to the GCRTF proposal. I haven't cried yet though.

-K (selfishly happy to have had the opportunity to once again post at G&T2U.)

Pege' said...

Wade, I am ignorant of the details of this particular man. I would like to address the heart of judgment. In my flesh I am a judgmental person, labeling people and being critical of them. I am guilty of this sin. I also have been on the receiving end from others. When my paradimes are challenged I respond with curiosity and critical thinking and debate or I am afraid withdrawl and attack in any way I can. In the truth is freedom but it does take a brave heart to seek after the truth. For me to live in the humility that I really do not know everything and to trust the spirit of God and not men or women is a challenge for me. I have my favorite authors , teachers, reference book et al but they are only human and I must discern truth from the word of God and the spirit. I do have my "sacred cows" that I must be willing to sacrifice for the truth not my comfort. Is it arrogant to say I do not believe EVERYTHING calvin, Luther, Spurgeon or even you have written? How hard it is not to be a follower of one teacher or another but of Jesus. Oh for the love and grace to be humble enough just to love another Chrisitan for who and where they are and the courage to speak the truth and to hear the truth from others.

Byron said...

Joe Blackmon,

I honestly believe you are mistaken in your approximations of motive concerning Debbie Kaufman and Wade Burleson. While I have not read all that Wade Burleson may have written on the matter, I have read some, and probably everything that Debbie Kaufman has written, to the best of my memory. I do not remember seeing a connection to the Conservative Resurgence anywhere, no matter how tenuous. Now, if it was there, it is obviously not the main point of their argument because I would have remembered this being emphasized. I am belaboring a point: I do not believe that connection is there, and the CR has no bearing on this issue in my mind.

I do not agree with Debbie Kaufman and Wade Burleson on everything, such as The Shack (which I have yet to read, but I might actually read it just to see what the hoopla is about, though I have already read a couple of good reviews). Even a broken analog clock is right twice a day, so DK and WB are right on some things and might be right on this issue as well (I am asking you to consider that, as obviously I am not neutral and I do agree with them here). Perhaps people are too sensitive about the Conservative Resurgence and want to insert that as a conversation topic when it is not even relevant to the discussion. When Debbie Kaufman and Wade Burleson begin doing this, then come back and lodge that complaint. Until then, perhaps consider their words based on their own merits and contexts.

Rex Ray said...

Wade,
Once again, it’s hello, old friend – we’ve been missing communicating with you and the other ‘good’ guys.

I’m sorry one person reminded you why you’re glad comments have ceased. His kind of witnessing results in ‘if that’s a Christian, I don’t want to be one’.

I’m sorry Mohammad Kahn has experienced the same kind of slander that’s been dished out against anyone that’s not “one of us”.

In his case, he can laugh in their faces because they can’t hurt him or his belief, but others of our own have their lives crushed.

I admire Kahn in looking for truth. Someday, I hope he finds it.

And speaking of truth, there’s another man putting his life on the line. If he’s able to reveal it; what’s done in secret will be shouted from the house-tops all over the world.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/14/terry-lakin-birther-to-be_n_537310.html

Alaskan in Texas said...

Friend Mohammad,

The responses of those who are supposed to be holding heads of non-profit religious-education organizations accountable remind me of a saying I heard in law school (and here I paraphrase):

If you have the facts on your side, argue the facts;
If you have the law on your side, argue the law;
If you have neither, scream like mad and attack the other side.

I am saddened and embarassed that it took a Muslim person to bring to light the mischaracterizations and truth-shading being carried on at the highest levels of an evangelical Christian organization.

RRR said...

Dear Mohammed,

Thank you for giving the information that you did. Some followers of Jesus believe that the integrity of our church leaders should be maintained and all of us should be held accountable to our fellow Jesus-followers. Your providing this information opened the eyes of many of us to the fabrications created by Ergun Caner.

I only discovered since this came out that Ergun's brother, Emir, is President of another of our Baptist colleges! This is all very disturbing and has caused some of us to be disappointed that quick action has not been taken by those in authority of the institutions to correct these situations.

As to the attacks this has generated toward you, most of us can sympathize because even we who follow Jesus are sometimes hostile to our fellow Jesus-followers! So don’t think that it’s only because you practice Islam that you are being assailed.

One possible reason for hostility being directed at you is that Ergun has misled a number of well known Southern Baptist Convention leaders who have identified with him and given him their support. These new revelations concerning Ergun have really put their reputations and judgment on the line too, although they were no doubt innocent victims of his misrepresentations.

Some of these Southern Baptist leaders who have “celebrity” status. They have many admirers who could almost be described as “groupies” and follow the leaders with a great deal of loyalty and devotion.

I believe their commitment to these leaders is so strong as to sometimes cloud their judgment and make it difficult for them to exercise objective assessments of things.

So when the supporters of these celebrity Convention leaders see the objects of their admiration put in these awkward and embarrassing positions they are quick to defend them. That may involve their attacking the source of information that brought the truth to light; you.

I know it shouldn't be that way, but all of us fall short of God's glory. Even though we are Jesus followers, we are all fallible humans and that’s why we follow Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior!

We try hard to be as God intends but we still fail and we are so thankful for His grace and for giving us Jesus as the way to be forgiven. We believe that Jesus is the only hope we have to be accepted by a holy God in spite of our constant stumbling and sinful behavior. What a relief that is to know!

Thanks again. We will pray for you and ask God to protect you and to guide you in all things.

John Fariss said...

Dear Mr. Kahn,

As a Christian, a Southern Baptist, and a pastor, I am embarassed for any hate-mail and other negative comments you have received. As for why this has happened, I have several theories.

First, a tenant of Christianity is that it is not simply a matter of accepting propositional truth, but that somehow, mystically, mysteriously, upon asking Jesus to be Lord and Savior, He comes to dwell within that person. Unfortunantly, too many Christians assume that maturity--emotional and spiritual as well--instantly happen then. I know only too well that it does not; and an immature adult who becomes a Christian is then simply an immature adult Christian, and will often do and say much the same things any immature adult would do. I suspect a good many of the viteriolic remarks directed at you have had this source.

Second, there is a dynamic of "civil war" going on here. We have been arguing Christian theology within our own community for a long time--at least since 1979, and actually much longer. Ergun Caner is somewhat of a polarizing figure (and I say this with no disrespect intended) within the Southern Baptist community. Consequently, especially among those less mature who have something invested in Dr. Caner and his theology, they see any disagreement as being an attack, and unfortunantly, being immature, they do not know how to disagree without being disagreeable.

Third, we Southern Baptists have a tradition that God qualifies the minister, rather than education. Although many of the "first generation" of Baptist ministers 400 years ago came out of the Anglican Church and were well-educated, many in subsequent generations were not. Many even today have no specialized ministerial training; and while I agree that it is indeed God who qualifies the minister, a lack of education makes it more difficult for a person to know how to evaluate sources and establish valid criteria in decision making. Hate-mail and anger, I fear, have been the product of people making poor decisions.

There may be reasons, but none of them are valid; all are excuses. If circumstances ever allow us to meet, perhaps I can introduce you to my Moslem friends Khalid, Zafar, and Asef and their families, and we can all enjoy table fellowship together.

John Fariss

One Salient Oversight said...

Can I just point out what a wonderful witness this is to Mohammed and other Muslims who may be reading this post and others. It shows to them our desire for purity, our respect for biblical ethics instead of blind loyalty, as well as proving to Muslims that we do care about truth and evidence of slander.

Amy said...

My one question to Mohammad would be ... In all the time that you and Mr. Burleson have corresponded has he ever talked with you about the truth of Jesus and the need for you to receive Him as Messiah?

Byron said...

Amy, must every Christian share the gospel personally with a non-Christian even if the Christian knows the gospel has already been shared with that person by someone else, in this case, by persons known to Mr. Burleson to already be Christians and members of his flock? I am not saying that Mr. Burleson should not share the gospel if he feels the Holy Spirit's leading. Do you feel that God holds you responsible for individually sharing the Gospel and requires sharing the Gospel at every window of opportunity, like some good work that must be performed so a heavenly score card can keep track of the results? Sorry, I am not trying to offend, but I am trying to exaggerate to show a point (some Southern Baptists in my local experience treat evangelism like it is some good work to be performed without which God's Kingdom will be impoverished, rather than being joyously used of God to witness to the transforming truth that Christ saves His people from their sins and to righteousness).

Byron said...

I guess what I am getting at in a nutshell is that using a perceived lack of evangelism as means for a guilt trip smacks of works-based righteousness to me. I do not know if that is what you intend. But I do know Mr. Burleson does not require my defense, as he is well able to defend himself and his views.

Wade Burleson said...

Amy,

Your desire to denigrate my Christian character trumps any impression you wish to give that you actually have concern for Mohammad's soul. Your games are silly.

Wade Burleson said...

Byron,

I think you may have said to Amy what I was thinking better than I.

Thanks.

Thy Peace said...

Joe Blackmon:

I would encourage you to listen to this sermon of Pastor Wade, [Series in "I John: The Christian and Complete Joy] - #10. Watch Out for the Spirit of the Anti- Christ. This sermon will put to rest some of your criticisms of Pastor Wade.

Pastor Tommy said...

Just one correction,

One poster said that openly gay and openly dishonest people could be Christians, the bible says that neither who practice such things shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Not accusing, confirming, or naming these in the lives of any one specifically. Just saying.

Joe Blackmon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kevin M. Crowder said...

Words are necessary and important to share the Gospel of The Anointed of God, but the Gospel is more than words. Mr. Mohammed need not hear Wade's, your's or my words Amy to know more about what Jesus' message to His creation is all about. He can see what belief in the Only Son of God does to people when that truth...that Word...that Logos transforms them (us) from the inside out. The Logos must inform and transform our pathos and ethos.

This was Dr. Caner's mistake. His pathos controlled and has destroyed his ethos, creating a false logos not at all based on The Logos.

Wade Burleson said...

Joe,

I hope that your erroneous comments are based upon pure, unadulterated ignorance, because if you are writing continual, intentional lies, then you should be concerned about Him who created you; He himself hates "a lying tongue," and promises an abode in "a lake of fire."

You see, I know you are either ignorant or lying, because you speak of my motives, and only I know those, and I know you are wrong. So therefore, for your sake, I pray you are simply ignorant.

If not, you are the one to whom I should share the gospel.

Amy said...

Wade and Byron,

I had another response all written out but then God and the accidental erasure of my message reminded me the heart and purpose behind my original question. So let me share it with you.

Last Sunday at my church the music before the sermon was Steve Green's People Need the Lord. Grew up listening to the song and even sang it myself in church during the 1980s and 1990s. However, I cannot sing that song anymore and can barely listen to it because it reminds me of my college days. I went to Houston Baptist University for two quarters before transferring to ETBU and during my time there a young woman died on campus. I knew her. I liked her. She was a kind girl; however, I never had a discussion with her about eternity.

When she died, I was wracked by a fear that I had let her "pass me by" and never stopped to find out if she knew where she was headed. I pray she is heaven today but I just don't know. And while there have been times where I have allowed other witnessing opportunities to slip through my fingers (because none of us are as faithful as we should be), I am still reminded of the first time I did it ... and it causes me to weep for lost souls.

So as I have read the posts on Ergun Caner and the comments from this post, I was struck by one thought, "Here is a man named Mohammad who needs the Lord but has anyone told him about the truth of Messiah Jesus?"

So yes, Byron, I think we should never pass on an opportunity to share the Gospel because we don't know what tomorrow holds. And Wade, I did not intend to offend because we are all guilty of letting opportunities pass us by; however, I would encourage you the next time you have a discussion with Mohammad to bring up Jesus to him because we all must share to anyone God places in our lives.

Byron said...

Amy, I understand and appreciate where you are coming from in your comment. Of course, share the gospel when that is on your heart. In Mohammad's case, I honestly believe he has heard it many times from many people, and my own comments contained the gospel at certain times, though they were not addressed to him specifically (as they were in a gospel context if not an evangelism mode). In light of your current comment, I can see I misinterpreted the intent behind your previous comment, and for that, I'm sorry.

Steve said...

I have this cartoonish scene in my mind's eye.
Here is an angry "Christian" standing in front of Mr. Khan and Wade. He is trying to hit Wade with the Bible in his hand - unsuccessfully. Meanwhile, he's saying, "Here, mister, let me read to you from our peace-filled Scriptures - just as soon as I swat this here boy! You'll love the peace you'll find in this here book!"

Wade Burleson said...

Amy,

I understand.

I would suggest, then, that you share the gospel with Mohammad.

Wade

Lydia said...

"I would suggest, then, that you simply share the gospel with Mohammad."

Maybe she thinks she is not allowed since she is a woman?

Wade Burleson said...

Lydia,

Hmm.

:)

Let me say, I would be honored to have Amy share the gospel in our church, either as a teacher, preacher, exhorter, etc....

Thy Peace said...

Off Topic:

More nasty comments on Threats against Pastor Wade Burleson ...

Baptist Life Forums > SBC News and Trends > Burleson gets threatened....

(TimR2 is Tim Rogers)

Sam Wise said...

Amy, you asked:

My one question to Mohammad would be ... In all the time that you and Mr. Burleson have corresponded has he ever talked with you about the truth of Jesus and the need for you to receive Him as Messiah?

Then, when you were challenged about pretending concern for someone's soul as a cloak to denigrate Mr. Burleson, you tell an emotional story about being racked with guilt for not sharing Christ with someone close to you years earlier. My one question for you is this: Why did you phrase your original question the way you did?

Why not write, "Mohammad, do you know the truth of Jesus Christ and your need to receive him as your Messiah?"

You are making no sense.

Debbie Kaufman said...

Wade: Mohammad asks some good questions. They are questions that I too am wondering the answers to. I mean the real answer not pat answers.

Robert said...

Wade,
You have not figured out that the leadership in the SBC doesnt give a flip about what you think ?
Wade and his ilk running their mouths again....whats new!!!!!

Robert I Masters

anon said...

This is about the bee in his bonnet he has about SWBTS and the CR.
__________________________________

Get over the CR. The tactics used, and the "ends justify the means" mentality was not of God and was not Christ-like. We are all now reaping what Patterson, Pressler, Vines, Rogers and others sowed. The tactics used against so called "liberals" are now being used against laymen in the church that ask questions. Even Mrs. Yvette Rich was banned and issued trespass warnings because she was faithfully married and submissive to her husband, who had some questions.

Joe, your bringing up the CR tells me my suspicion that those who supported the CR just can't adjust now that they "won." And by the way, I met Paul Pressler, loved and knew Vines, attended SEBTS while Patterson was president there and admired Patterson and Rogers. But the next generation needs to disarm. That war is over. Those guys were used to win it. Who will protect us from you now?

Rex Ray said...

Robert,
Does your attitude encourage Mohammad Kahn to want a relationship with Jesus? It would seem you don’t care about him.

All you care about is protecting the image of those that gave you a high position at SWBTS. They as well as you don’t want to admit they’ve been fooled by a hypocrite exposed by Kahn and Wade.

To keep your self esteem you shoot the messengers.

With neither facts nor law on your side, you’ve followed the advice of ‘Alaskan in Texas’:
“SCREAM LIKE MAD AND ATTACK THE OTHER SIDE.”


BTW Robert, when you make a statement, it’s not followed by a question mark, and when you ask a question it is followed by a question mark.

This is not an attack because there are facts and laws that deal with your mistakes. The main one is ‘love your brother’.

deepintheheart said...

As Christians, our agape love for other people, regardless of their religious beliefs (or their political persuasion, which seems to be just as divisive in this country today) should be so evident that people ask us to tell them why we have such hope. And Peter tells us that our response should be done in a way that is filled with gentleness and respect, so that those who want to slander our good name in Christ will be ashamed of what they do. What a tremendous testimony it would be to have a Muslim notice the love of Christ in a believer, instead of feeling hated or lack of trust.

Debbie Kaufman said...

Robert: It's your type of answer that many have been saying, see no evil, hear no evil, but speak lots of....

Frankly it's not the leadership that I am as concerned about as those who look the other way as if to say well it's there but I don't see it.

Answering for myself, it's no one's business whether I give the Gospel to Mohammad or not. That is between me and my God. I am so tired of that question it's use is to try and intimidate pure and simple it is so against what the Bible teaches.

Robert said...

Rex Ray,
I dont believe I addressed you or Mohammed.
2. it was a rhetorical question....ie have you figured out that the sbc leadership doesnt care what wade thinks.
He is politically a pastor non grata in the SBC.In the same sense that mr Khan probably would not change Mr Achminajab opinion in Iran. Even though both claim to be of the same religion.
3. The Southwestern reference.....not me.
I am beholden to no SBC entity. I own a small free software computer company in Nashville.
4.feel free to judge my attitude but I really said nothing negative about being a Christ follower. Love doesnt mean you cant ask questions or criticise.

Robert I Masters
From the Southern Baptist Geneva

Dave Miller said...

Wade,

I have freely criticized you for the things you have written in recent years. No shock to you, but I mention it for the sake of anyone who might read this. I'm not a "WB worshipper" as "TimR2" said on Baptist Life.

But I would say two things here, with your leave.

1) What Tim said to you on that website was despicable. I have seen a lot on blogs I consider low. That may be the lowest point I have seen.

I was appalled, shocked and disgusted. I'm not sure who he is (though suggestions were made over there, but not confirmed).

It was the most ungodly blogging I have seen.

2) As far as Mr. Khan goes, we live in a "black hat, white hat" world. For those who see Dr. Caner with a white hat, anyone who criticizes him is "subchristian" and a hate-merchant. For those who see him wearing a black hat, any evidence is accepted with glee.

For me, the jury is still out on Ergun Caner. There have been some significant questions raised that need to be answered. I'm a big Liberty supporter and I believe they need to research this.

If Caner fictionalized or augmented his "testimony" it is no small breach of integrity.

Rex Ray said...

Robert,
I noticed you capitalized my name, Mohammed Khan, Achminajab, Nashville, Christ, and your name, but did you fail to capitalize Wade’s name on purpose or was that just another little mistake?

You’re correct that you didn’t address me, and a cigarette smoker is free to smoke until it reaches my nose; then the smell effects me the same way.

Rex Ray said...

Dave Miller,
Nice to hear your comment, and I believe from an open mind.

Some words cannot express the exact true feeling; such as “glee’. I’m referring to you saying: “For those who see him wearing a black hat, any evidence is accepted with glee.”

‘Glee’ is not the word I felt when I learned a few minutes ago that Frank Norris killed and unarmed man as reported on Wade’s blog today. As much as I disliked his theology and methods, I felt more of sadness or ‘my-my’.

Jesus did not feel ‘glee’ when he called the Pharisees some pretty bad names. I feel we should follow his example in pointing out truth but it is not with ‘glee’.

Tom Parker said...

David Miller:

You said“For those who see him wearing a black hat, any evidence is accepted with glee.”

How do you know this? Not all people function out of that type of narrow mindset.

Joe Blackmon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Tom Parker said...

Wade:

At first I was not happy about your closing your blog to comments. But it is clearly demonstrated here why I now believe you came to find it necessary.

The Lord is on his Throne and he will work it all out.

I love you in the Lord Wade, and I am thankful for all you have attempted to do for the Lord and the SBC.

Tim Marsh said...

I hope that Dr. Caner can experience true forgiveness and reconciliation AFTER Liberty University terminates his employment.

Mohammed, as we all know, Christians, Muslims, Jews, and other faiths contain those with varying degrees of commitment to the truth and ethics of their particular faith. You have angered a certain group. You are not being attacked by "Christians" but supporters of Dr. Caner who would never believe that "a man of God" could commit such a travesty. They just happen to support a particular brand of Christianity.

I know that Dr. Caner has spoken at many youth events. I think about a Pastor/Preacher I admired as a youth who spoke on Sexual Purity. At the time, he was having a long-distance relationship with another woman, for over 20 years!

Can you imagine the disillusionment from youth who heard and responded to Caner's preaching?

Finally, recently I heard an evangelist at a local youth rally talk about debating evolutionists and never losing a debate. He also spoke about converting a college biology professor committed to evolution.

Where do these debates take place? Who referees them? Who decides a winner and loser?

I wonder if these embellished biographical accounts are not uncommon among evangelists.

Christiane said...

TIM MARSH wrote 'I wonder if these embellished biographical accounts are not uncommon among evangelists.'

Maybe it's more the 'fundamentalists' who are doing this? I don't know, but when I look at the 'ends justifies the means' mentality that is now so very documented, I do wonder.

I see evangelists as people who desire to bring Christ to others and to do it in a way that attempts to honor Him and His teachings.

But what has happened with fundamentalists is 'not the same' and I don't even have the words to speak of it. The effect though, is that in using 'exaggeration, misinformation, negative attack, self-righteousness, and judgmentalism, they are now sometimes perceived as either:

A. Hypocrites
B. or liars

In either case, their attempts to spread Christianity are seriously compromised, and may in fact, scandalize those who do not know Our Lord in a way that drives them away from wanting to know Him.

It is said that God uses imperfect people. But imperfect as we are, we are asked 'not to be ashamed of Christ'. Not to deny Him. St. Peter wept, and repented. I have hope that those who feel the need to be 'dishonorable' in how they attempt to spread the Gospel will come to believe in the POWER of the Gospel and the POWER of the Holy Spirit so much that they no longer feel the need to 'exaggerate' and 'misinform', 'Bible-thump', or threaten with Hell, point the finger, or 'weed out' the 'sinners' from among their midst. They can 'let go and let God'. Then they will find a place to rest and be at peace in Christ, and be able to give HIM the full credit for calling those who come to Him through their ministry.

Steve said...

Wade's post included a question about why Americans and Christians react the way they do when faced with arguments from opponents - attacks, refusal to listen, not debating points fairly, etc.

I have to say we are still way, way too human to react maturely when the things closest to us come up in conversation.

Football offers an easy example. Philadelphia Eagles fans can make broad judgements about the Chicago Bears' players, team results, and fans, but prefer to attack all opponents and their ideas with famous emotionalism when the Eagles are discussed. It pretty much goes that way all over the league, except everyone takes time to hate the Cowboys.

So, if you're wondering why Christians continue to be as devoted to their arguments as Jews or Muslims, I simply say that we are still people, despite the changes being made inside of us by Jesus, even in a country where you'd think we would be safe and mature about religious argument.

Christiane said...

Sadly, I read this statement about Ergun Caner on the Liberty University site. It was written by pastor James Merritt, as Caner first came into the Presidency of the theological school:

"Only God knows the incredible heights that LBTS will reach under Dr. Caner’s inspiring leadership.”

An unfortunate but prophetic choice of word in hindsight:
'incredible'

and sad because Pastor Merritt sounded so hopeful. It is sad. No 'glee' is felt by anyone who understands that most of the good people at Liberty may not have known any of the details of what would later need to be white-washed.

Wade Burleson said...

Joe Blackman,

I hope everyone takes you up on reading the articles I have written. They are important for the future of the SBC.


Wade

Robert said...

Tim Marsh,
Liberty firing Ergun Caner!!!!! Ha , Ha Ha
hell will freeze over first.

Christiane
I would think that you would want to worry for the little boys in the Catholic church then in troubling your head with the "fundmentalist" Liberty University.

Wade comes out of his closet to attack a fellow brother in Christ. Go back in CBF closet please Wade!!!!

Robert I Masters
From the Southern Baptist Geneva

Byron said...

Good grief. Now I understand why Wade Burleson felt led of God to shut down comments on his blog. Meanwhile, the wagons get circled, and the spin machine continues on. Such is life in the SBC, never a dull moment.

Thy Peace said...

Maybe SBC needs to come up with a new BFM ... that makes ALL its leaders GODS. And the leaders should NEVER be questioned, NEVER be confronted with their errors, NEVER be asked to explain their actions and whatever they say is God's word.

Of course, fire or kick out anyone who does not sign the new BFM.

Maybe this has already happened and I am the last to know of it.

Christiane said...

Robert,

I worry about the minors in the SBC as well as in my own Church. Check up on Christa Brown's blog.
BTW, the news is out: she is being quoted by the London Times.

Robert, when will the SBC take the responsibility of keeping a listing of predators caught working for churches who belong to the SBC?

I've heard all the 'excuses'. The 'excuses' don't help the minors who may be preyed upon, do they? You would think that someone in power in the SBC would think about holding predators accountable. But they do not, quite the opposite.
Read Christa's blog, and you will see the truth of this.

Robert, everyone needs to 'worry' about predators. And everyone needs to take the responsibility of doing something about it, even the SBC.

Read Christa's blog.
It will be an education for you, I think.

In Christ, peace
L's

Robert said...

Christiane,
the worlds headlines are on your faith leaders ....not on the SBC.
you worry about your religion and I will worry about mine ....fair enough!

Robert I Masters

Robert said...

Christiane:
here is what your faith is saying....
http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/04/13/vatican-cardinal-claims-homosexuality-associated-with-pedophilia/

Robert I Masters

Joe Blackmon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Robert said...

Along with the fact that you set up a man made priest order that is unnatural....ie God set up man to marry women ....then you have double jeopardy.
Please reform your faith ....it will take all your resources.

Robert I Masters

Tim Marsh said...

Robert,

So you are saying that Liberty will never fire Caner as a statement of fact or that you yourself support Caner?

For Liberty not to suspend Caner until an investigation is completed is irresponsible. For Caner to continue to work at Liberty is an approval of his past and the course of action he took to get where he is.


Finally, to anyone, are these fanciful stories and embellishments common among evangelists. From who do they learn these methods? What is the justification that they use to excuse lies from pulpit.

For anyone to say this is excusable is completely out of line when it comes to scripture and the words of Jesus.

Robert said...

Tim Marsh,
The Falwells support Ergun Caner....end of story.

Robert I Masters

Christiane said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Christiane said...

Hi ROBERT and JOE

Yes, I do care about all cases of clergy abuse, particularly when the victims are minors.

Let's see what a Baptists ethics professor has said:

""The Baptist situation may be no better than the Catholic, only shielded more deeply from view."
David Gushee, professor of Christian ethics, Mercer University

Read more in the Associated Baptist Press > (see Christa's blog for reference)

Now why would David Gushee say 'shielded more deeply from view'.
I can tell you. The SBC doesn't want to learn from the horror of what my Church has gone through. The SBC could and someday WILL establish a list of clergy predators for the protection of the people of its member churches. I say 'will' because I believe it to be true. It is a matter simply of 'waiting' (impatiently, if you are a Baptist mother) for people in authority to do the right thing, or to be replaced by those who will do the right thing to protect minors.

You brought the subject up. And I know this may be difficult for you, but my Church does keep a registry NOW. But in the days when it did not, predators were allowed to go from one parish to another, and the new parish did not know about the abuse... now the SBC is needing to register known predators among its clergy, but it will not. Christa Brown, who is one my heroes, is working very hard to change this. She has received contempt from some present SBC leaders. But she is committed to doing the right thing.

So, there it is. Not a pretty story.
No excuses. No one gets a free pass.
Accountability of clergy is needed in all faiths. Keeping a registry of offenders is absolutely critical. Learn from my Church's experience.

Now, do you want to give me all the 'excuses' why the SBC shouldn't, can't, or 'doesn't have to' keep a list of known clergy predators?

Oh, please.
Enough all ready.
Read Christa's blogs. And wise up.

Mon Apr 19, 04:54:00 PM 2010

Thy Peace said...

Wade Burleson in a comment here, says this ...

Ben [Cole] seems to be doing quite well in Washington, D.C., working in the political arena. I will occasionally catch a glimpse of him behind some Senator or Representative who is signing a bill--one most likely written by Ben. He has left the Southern Baptist Convention and joined the Roman Catholic Church.

Robert said...

Christiane:
Most of the people you mention are not Southern Baptists.....people like David Gushee. Why do you think he left Union for Mercer.

Lists do not stop people from sinning .

BTW ...databases wont be happening in the SBC.
Stop Catholic paedophiles.

Robert I Masters

Robert said...

Christiane,
You need to spend more time cleaning your own house!
Stop supporting wickedness!
You will learn of the sometime!

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Catholic+predators&aq=f

Robert I Masters

Christiane said...

Robert, who is supporting wickedness?

I rest my case.

Robert said...

Christiane,
the SBC is not hierarchal like your church. No monies of mine go to either Liberty university or any pastor in the SBC. I dont believe you can say that about the R.C Church.

Robert I Masters

Christiane said...

Yes, what is wrong with a Catholic supporting the Church? And our universities are excellent. Lot's of people from different denominations are WELCOMED to come to our universities, to study, and to teach. Yes, to teach.
Diversity is valued tremendously.

I know one blogger who is Southern Baptist who is going for a doctorate at a Catholic university and is doing well. She was hired as a teaching/research assistant at this university, no conflicts with her being a Southern Baptist at all.
She intends to remain in her Baptist tradition and I predict she will become a wonderful force for good in the Church in future. She is a gifted writer and known to many on this blog. Her gifts are God-given and a good Catholic university will help her develop those gifts while respecting her own faith tradition. They are the better for having her there and I'm sure they know it.

Kevin M. Crowder said...

I like Catholics 'cuz I hear they get real presence...and I love presence. :-D

Christiane said...

Hi KEVIN,

:) Yes, we are absolutely blessed.

Robert said...

Diversity,
isnt that another word for pro-homosexual, anti-white.

Joe Blackmon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Byron said...

Robert, your definition of diversity might exist in your mind, but not mine and I would wager not in the mind of the person who used it. Yes, diversity can mean that, unfortunately. But diversity is not always bad, unless of course you happen to have the minority viewpoint in an atmosphere where independent thought is frowned upon. In my opinion, the SBC should rewind at least one revision of the BFM, and begin relying on the Holy Spirit for guidance and the priesthood of the believer. But that's just me.

Byron said...

Oh, come on Joe. Think outside the box for once. You might like it.

Christiane said...

Robert,

People can have unity and still be 'different'. God made us different and gave us special different gifts. Our 'diversity' can enrich the unity of the community. It's like this:

1 Cor. 12

"18 But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose.
19 If all were a single member, where would the body be?
20 As it is, there are many members, yet one body.
21 The eye cannot say to the hand, ‘I have no need of you’, nor again the head to the feet, ‘I have no need of you.’
22 On the contrary, the members of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable,
23 and those members of the body that we think less honourable we clothe with greater honour, and our less respectable members are treated with greater respect; 24whereas our more respectable members do not need this. But God has so arranged the body, giving the greater honour to the inferior member, 25that there may be no dissension within the body, but the members may have the same care for one another. 26If one member suffers, all suffer together with it; if one member is honoured, all rejoice together with it. "

Debbie Kaufman said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Debbie Kaufman said...

And this ladies and gentlemen is why I write what I write. Thank you to all the above who reminded me of why I am continuing to do this. And know I'm not smiling while I write this. The crazy comments above that have no place in a Christian's mind let alone in his theology, unless you show me passages otherwise, and these from people who say they believe in Bible inerrancy and the topper statement of them all......

"The Falwells support Ergun Caner....end of story." Robert

Robert said...

Debbie,
That was simply a pragmatic statement to Tim Marsh.
Like this statement about you....Debbie Kaufman has the support of Wade Burleson in her promotion of the Shack....end of Story.

Robert I Masters

Kevin M. Crowder said...

Falwell (verb): to end in disgrace with much grace.


OK, I know that is totally wrong and unbefitting of the late Dr. Jerry...he built more bridges in Christendom than most of us will ever have the opportunity to cross. But he was not without controversy and overreaching zeal. He was a man of forgiveness and exercised grace. He condemned sin as sin (while sticking his foot in his mouth) while at the same time giving great hope to groups such as Exodus International, the largest post-gay ministry in America. One wonders what he would have done in such a time as this? Dr. Jerry was the old guard. I think he would have forgiven Dr. Caner and moved on, trying to salvage a man's ministry in the process. But to what greater damage? Integrity is truly a once gained and seldom regained commodity. The later only by the Divine Authority of God. But when we mess up in the process of reconciliation, the process of rehabilitation becomes more difficult, if not impossible. We must pray for Dr. Caner, that his future will include much humility and submission. It would be a sad thing, in my mind, for the Kingdom to lose such a proponent. I am going to pray that he will soon accept John Calvin as his personal theologian--for the glory of Christ. :)

Tom Parker said...

Robert:

Your lack of Christian Civility is showing again. Maybe it is time for you to take your fingers off of the keys and the publish button.

Byron said...

Robert, what does Ergun Caner have to do with The Shack? Or, for another commenter, what does Ergun Caner have to do with the CR? In fact, why is it that the more evidence that comes out, the more insistent some are to redirect the conversation away from Ergun Caner to something else (usually the favorite hobby horses like the CR and The Shack). Sheesh.

Tom Parker said...

Byron:

I think it is that some do not like to think for themselves.

Byron said...

Tom Parker, no kidding. Doing your own thinking is enough to wear you out sometimes, so that's enough by itself. My whole life I've tried to reason with people, never got anywhere, and now that I'm starting to learn to give up, it's a lot less stressful. Orange grass? Purple sky? Whatever, Check. Next, please.

Robert said...

Byron,
it might take a little inquiry but you have to follow the comments directed to me first from Tim Marsh then to Debbie.
My point concerning the Shack is that just like Debbie was unmoved by 500 comments telling her that the Shack was heresy she was allowed to promote that heresy in Wades Church and on his blog....thus the statement "End of Story".
In the same manner the Falwells have publicly stated their support for Ergun Caner. Its their university...they can hire and fire as they see fit.
Frankly I would have the school sue debbie kaufman for harassment of ergun caner.

I also find it extremely offensive that Debbie and Wade make alliances with Mohammedans against a fellow Christian to attack Ergun. You think that is Biblical....please.

Robert I Masters

Debbie Kaufman said...

Robert: Kind of like God using Rahab a prostitute to hide the spies? Yes, how disgusting. To realize a young man who is Muslim is telling the truth. To seem him not as a Muslim but as a human being and more than that my friend. If you are disgusted by that I must be doing something right.

Byron said...

Robert,

I don't agree with Debbie or Wade on The Shack. But then again, I haven't read it for myself. It may have positive elements, but I'm skeptical.

You're right, Liberty has the right to hire, fire, and support whomever they wish to. That's not an issue. What IS an issue is the idea of personal integrity, contradictory and mutually exclusive statements made in public, and perhaps even issuing an incomplete apology and then retracting it without notice or explanation. How does pointing any of these things out constitute harassment? That's the part I don't get.

The other part is the whole "alliance with Mohammedans" thing. If someone comes along and says X, and if X is true, or could be true, how is agreeing with that person creating some unholy alliance? If a Satanist comes along and says 2+2=4, or some guy named Mr. Jones claimed to be something he isn't (as could be the case here and seems to be with the presented evidence), should I not agree just because I heard it first from a Satanist? That makes no sense to me, and neither does the rest of this debacle.

If I didn't know better, and I don't, I'd say this is a bad case of star-struck fan spinning. Sorry, no offense. But I honestly cannot see it otherwise, especially because if the shoe was on the other foot, who would care about that much about what the whistle blowers believed or did not believe on unrelated issues?

I mean, I get it that Ergun Caner is an evangelist and is trying to evangelize those in a different religion, and yes, these controversies short-circuit that. If all you're in it for is evangelism, then yes, that's bad. But if you want evangelism with truth and integrity as a foundation, answering this controversy should be the first and foremost concern, not laughing it off and sweeping it under the rug as if it were simply unfounded slander, which is what it is treated like.

So, no, I couldn't disagree more, sorry.

Byron said...

Also, I see an attitude that's never explicitly spoken but almost translates into the idea of non-SBCers (or hypo-SBCers if I can invent that term) criticizing SBCers is just uncool or something. It's like, if the person who started this whole thing was part of the SBC instead of a Muslim, some would find some other way to tar and feather the person (gasp, "Liberal!") and still avoid dealing with the content and implications of the message. Or if the criticism was of someone outside the golden elite of the SBC, the whole spirit of the thing would be far different. It's enough to make someone sick, and the fact it is not making more people sick, is troubling even more.

Joe Blackmon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Debbie Kaufman said...

This is a recording.

Joe: What! I won't let you post your ugly words on my site so you have to buzz over here?

Tim Marsh said...

To all,

Here are the facts:

1. A man has fabricated much of his personal history.

2. The man is Dean of the seminary at one of the largest, maybe the largest conservative seminaries in the country that supposedly speaks the truth.

3. The faith this man professes is founded on truth and calls its followers to speak truthfully.

4. If this man has been habitually lying, fabricating his background, and exagerating the truth, then what should be done?

If this was a moderate Baptist or Catholic Bishop (as Christiane's faith has already been attacked), then what is the right thing to do?

You terminate this person's employment. That does not mean that you do not help this person thereafter. It does not mean that you do not seek forgiveness and reconciliation.

But you DO NOT COVER IT UP...PERIOD!

I don't care who it is, you cannot sweep under the rug lifestyle sins. They are not little mistakes but tragic character flaws developed by a series of repeated mistakes.

To all of you, if this was a moderate Baptist who was dean of the fictional Fellowship of Moderate Baptists Seminary, then what would you do? You would argue for his or her termination, right?

If not, then may I ask why?

Forgiveness does not mean that there are not consequences to the action. Forgiveness means that the relationship may still be restored after repentence.

And, the silence of Liberty University is deafening.

Debbie Kaufman said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Joe Blackmon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Thy Peace said...

Mohammad Khan:

Why is your website still down?

Did anyone issue a DMCA takedown notice to you or your website operator?

Is this related to Jason Smathers contesting you about copyright issues related to public documents unearthed by him related to Ergun Caner?

What caused your website operator to put a notice saying, "This website is currently not available. If you are the site owner, please contact
Our Abuse Team regarding the status of your website.
" ?

Robert said...

debbie,
Rahab had faith in the one true God,
Please Show me Mohammed has put his Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
ie Rahab was counted as righteous!!!1

Tim Marsh
I disagree with almost all your facts
and the times that he has admitted to misleading people he has repented.
Ironically I saw on Betweenthetimes where they asked Prayer for Cecil Sherman and I know he passed away but we conservatives have not been out attacking him like you moderates are attacking Ergun Caner. This from a guy who has thinks Wade is not Calvinistic enough!

BTW-Liberty baptist Seminary is no where near the largest Baptist Seminary nor any seminary. And it is not SBC funded.
Why dont you attack the Methodist seminaries or the AME seminaries they have some truly wacko things going on in those seminaries.

Robert I Masters

Tim Marsh said...

Robert,

You disagree with the facts???

1. Caner is the Dean of a Seminary, a position with authority and accountablity. How can you disagree with that fact?

2. You disagree with the fact that our faith calls us to be truthful? We are called to tell the truth and to do so by means that communicate integrity. You disagree with that fact?

3. Caner is being investigated on his biographical claims. Do you disagree with that?

4. If the investigation proves true, what should happen?

Maybe you disagree with the direction that the facts point, but these are facts. Disagreeing with them is like disagreeing with the definition of a number or the name of a color.

I ask, if this was Cecil Sherman, or whoever, what should happen to him?

Joe Blackmon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
John Fariss said...

Some of these last 20 or 30 comments I agree with and some I disagree with. But either many of y'all have forgotten the purpose of the comments section having been opened, or I misunderstood it myself. I thought it was to "request answers for specific questions" for Mr. Mohammed Kahn, not to argue among ourselves, on topics ranging from those related to his questions (such as the integrity of Dr. Caner and his job at Liberty) to those far afield (disagreemnts among Christians about our own doctrines and theology, and things like "The Shack"). If my understanding of the purpose is correct, right now I am am embarassed for how we have digressed and lost focus, and what message it sends to Mr. Kahn and others outside Christianity like him. If my understanding is incorect, I would appreciate someone showing me where I missed the boat.

John

Tim Marsh said...

John,

You are right. As always this forum digresses. I guess that is why Wade has eliminated responses.

I will refrain from further discussion on this topic.

As to answers to Mohammed's questions, all I can say is that a celebrity has been exposed, and now he will hear from those who believe that a man from God has been wronged.

Robert said...

Tim Marsh
you rewrote your own statements.
let me copy and paste the two additions and I will be precise as to why I think they are not facts.
I did also almost all the facts...not all.
1.1. A man has fabricated much of his personal history.
1.2. Interesting you left this out of the second one...its simply conjecture on your part not fact at all.
2.1.The man is Dean of the seminary at one of the largest, maybe the largest conservative seminaries in the country that supposedly speaks the truth
2.2.Caner is the Dean of a Seminary, a position with authority and accountablity. How can you disagree with that fact?
I can disagreee with your original statement because I can look up the stats on enrollment and so forth and find many larger seminaries including Calvinistically inclined
SBTC.
3.1.The faith this man professes is founded on truth and calls its followers to speak truthfully.
3.2.You disagree with the fact that our faith calls us to be truthful? We are called to tell the truth and to do so by means that communicate integrity. You disagree with that fact?
this we can both agree on as fact
4.1. If this man has been habitually lying, fabricating his background, and exagerating the truth, then what should be done?
4.2. not repeated as a fact
This is a question not a statement of fact....Statements of fact do not begin with "if"
New statements not posted on the original facts sheet.
5.1.
Caner is being investigated on his biographical claims. Do you disagree with that?
This one I have been unable to verify if you mean by the those in authority at Liberty. The last I heard was that the Falwells had given him their support. Can you give me a link to adddress this implied fact. So now I do not consider this a fact.I will gladly admit that if you show me where Liberty is doing a separate investigation.
On the other hand if you mean Debbie Kaufman or Wade Burleson james White or Peter Lumpkins is investigating well then it would be an irrelevant fact because they have no authority to fire Ergun.
6.1.If the investigation proves true, what should happen?
Again not a statement of fact.

I take Ergun at his word that he answered all those charges to those who have authority to fire him and to the Lord.

Furthermore to do anything less shows a lack of Grace toward a fellow Follower of Christ.

BTW- I dont think James White has responded in the same way as Debbie and Wade have here.

Robert I Masters

Robert said...

Sorry should be SBTS
http://www.sbts.edu/

Debbie Kaufman said...

What Mohammad and I talk about in private, is just that private. I owe you no explanation nor anyone else who has asked me or will ask me. That is between Mohammad and myself. Period.

Joe: You can threaten as you have on my blog and you will get the same answer. It makes me more determined to get to the bottom of this. And by that I mean the very bottom of this. So you don't have to be silent. You just have to be silent on my blog. That I can control. I'm the Administrator. I just wanted the truth out(not that I care, people will think what they think) while you are pontificating. :)

Joe Blackmon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Thy Peace said...

Finally found the answer why Mohammad Khan's website is down ...

-------------------------------------
Source: (bolded for clarity)
I would like to clarify that I did not contest to the use of public records. Public records are just that: public and available to anyone that walks into the court room.

I did object to the use of my exact words, copied and pasted onto Mr. Khan’s website and represented as his own words. Doing this is theft, copyright infringement, and plagiarism.

Mr. Khan refused to remedy the situation even after I made the request to him in private email. Unable to resolve the matter privately, I submitted a DMCA takedown notice to the ISP hosting the website where my words which were copied and pasted in exact form with no attribution. Other parts of my writing were mildly reworded or had word order changes, but had no substantial change. If Mr. Khan issues a DMCA counter notice, he must agree to be sued in the United States court, district of Maryland.

I will prayerfully consider defending my copyright in that venue if the situation arises. However, I hope this matter does not escalate further and is resolved by Mr. Khan removing the infringing content from his website, apologizing for his infraction and asking me to retract my DMCA notice. I am a forgiving person. Christ has forgiven an unspeakable multitude of my sins.

Please do not confuse my action to be support for Dr. Caner. My action is support for integrity on both sides. Although Mr. Khan has made many verifiable claims, as long as they are mixed with his own deception they carry little weight in the eyes of the greater community.

Blessings,
Jason Smathers

Comment by Jason Smathers | April 20, 2010

Thy Peace said...

Wiki > Digital Millennium Copyright Act.

Wiki > Online Copyright Infringement Liability Limitation Act.

Thy Peace said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Thy Peace said...

Off Topic:

Interesting links related to Google receives Government Information and Takedown requests ...

EFF > Google Shows Government Information and Takedown Requests.

Google > Government requests directed to Google and YouTube.

Thy Peace said...

The site fakeexmuslims.com, is back online.

Debbie Kaufman said...

Umm Robert, go read James White's blog. :)

Robert said...

Debbie,
here is a good video for you you to watch.

http://www.clipser.com/watch_video/134506

and for

Mohammed

Robert I Masters

Debbie Kaufman said...

Robert: You and I have nothing more to discuss. You need however to search your heart and truly ask God where you should be standing in this area. I know what the Quran says. I need no lessons from you. I am a born again Christian. Now you can believe this or not. Doesn't matter to me. But it does matter where and who the Gospel is preached. It's not done through hate or prejudices in the name of Christianity, which quite frankly sticks in my throat even as I say it.

Christiane said...

The Christian Faith has never needed to be 'propped up' or made to 'look better' by comparisons that put down other faith groups.

Christ's message is unique in all the world,
AND
Christ's message stands strongly on its OWN merits.

Robert said...

Debbie,
Are you accusing me of hate. I dont hate are you sure your not hearing your own thought patterns.

here are some more words of wisdom for you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3tgY_eI_P0

and Mohammed

Robert I Masters

Robert said...

Christiane,
Your rather Naive about Islam.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVPi2jMeDig&feature=related

Robert I Masters

Robert said...

Christiane,
You think abuse is bad in the SBC....
listen to this discussion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nUI3TUdFCk&feature=related

This is Qatar official TV

Robert I Masters

Christiane said...

Robert, for some advice from an Apostle, you can read 1 Peter 3

and also let me share some advice from my own tradition:

'To begin with, we need to speak and act as the people of hope we are, for the hope we have in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is unassailable and its fulfillment unstoppable.

If we do that, people will notice and sooner or later they will ask.


"Always be ready to give an explanation
to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope,
but do it with gentleness and reverence..." (from 1 Peter 3)



“Do it with gentleness and reverence” is a critically important three-fold guideline for how we should share our faith with others.

We need to be gentle: not flippant, arrogant, impatient, or defensive.

We need to be reverent: reverent for the other human being, who has been created in God’s image and who is in some way responding to God’s call, and also reverence for the truth revealed perfectly by Christ and communicated through Christ’s Church.

But we should not just think of being gentle and reverent: we must DO IT: – we must gently and reverently share our faith and give others an explanation of the reason for our hope in Jesus Christ our Lord.'

To bring bring Christ to others who do not know Him, is to bring the Light, to share the Good News, and to do it in the 'Spirit of reconciliation' spoken of in Paul's letter to the Corinthians.

God goes before those always,
who bring to others the Light of Christ,
so that when they come to those in darkness
it is not with a spirit of fearful contempt for the darkness,
but with a Spirit of hope.

We are taught in Scripture that the people in darkness will see a Great Light, and that this Light will shine in the darkness, and the darkness will consume it not.

Better to light one candle
than to curse the darkness.

Remember that, Robert.

Joe Blackmon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Joe Blackmon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Tim Marsh said...

Joe Blackmon: "You're such an airheaded bimbo that you don't even have sense enough to be ashamed of yourself."

You have crossed the line.

Richard said...

In the comments of Joe and Robert I find nothing of Christ's teaching for us who love the gospel. I have 10-year-old grandtwins who recognize when to stop fighting faster than you two, and I am embarrassed for my faith being represented in this way. For this Baptist, the careful, loving remarks of Christiane, Tim, and others are what Christ is all about. Robert and Joe, your cultic Calvinism is causing you to miss the boat, and ruining your witness.

john said...

Richard,

The meanness in postings has nothing to do with calvinism. It is more of the old sin nature. Same as Dr. Caner's in essence, though different in forms. We all have that potential. But surely it is not reflecting Eps 5:18

Calcun

Christiane said...

Hi JOE BLACKMON,

You wrote this,
"we must gently and reverently share our faith

Why?"


St. Peter explains the 'why':


"15
but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts. Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope,
16
but do it with gentleness and reverence, keeping your conscience clear, so that, when you are maligned, those who defame your good conduct in Christ may themselves be put to shame.
"

You can read the rest in 1 Peter 3 and ponder those words 'your good conduct in Christ' together with '
gently and reverently share our faith'.

A 'Christian' is to live in imitation of Lord Christ as best they can, and to conform their lives to His. He's the example.
Christ, if you will, IS the 'proto-type' Christian: the first-born of many. His are the footsteps we follow, Joe.

Be peaceful,
Love, L's

Robert said...

Christiane and Debbie,
I am appalled at you lack of support for women and womens rights in light of your hatred for what Ayaan Hirsi Ali has stated about the way of Islam.

You support the beating of women with electric cables like the Qatari women said on TV. Wow I would think even basic religious teaching would urge you to speak out against such a violent religion.

No instead you make alliances against a fellow believer with a mohammedian. Remember the war on terror is a war on Islam!

Robert I Masters

Christiane said...

"Remember the war on terror is a war on Islam!"

No. It isn't.

Robert said...

Mohammend,
Does the Quran allow for wife beating?

Robert I Masters

Richard said...

John---You are correct, and I did not mean to blame Calvinism with that response, but rather a "cultic" point of view that limits a tolerance for other opinions or Biblical interpretations. I regret that I have often seen Calvinists take this viewpoint, but I have also seen it in other believers influenced strongly by theological personalities. Their argumentative immaturity should be a reminder to all of us that Jesus is the author of our faith, and our Lord has clear words for us to apply in loving and living with other believers, as well as in witness to nonbelievers.

Debbie Kaufman said...

I don't know Robert, Mohammad has treated me ten times better than those men from my own denomination.

Thy Peace said...

I would encourage all readers to listen to this sermon of Pastor Wade. This sermon is very apt for the Ergun Caner issues we are facing today.

Series in "I John: The Christian and Complete Joy > #11. The Anointing of the Father (I John 2:26-27).

Excellent sermon.

Kevin M. Crowder said...

To the Mike Warnke story above, I found this PDF file of the restoration process of Mike Warnke to be rather interesting. I found the information at www.mikewarnke.com under the FAQ's tab.

http://mikewarnke.org/PDF/Tribunalhearing.pdf

I know nothing of Mike Warnke other than his site and reading about him on Wade's post above. The PDF file includes 35 or so pages of testimony, apology, legal documents, and letters from the men on Mike's "Spiritual Tribunal." Most of these men are/were Southern Baptists...one even held some posts in Oklahoma SB life. I honestly cannot make a sufficient judgment as to the process of reconciliation without knowing more. But the process and apparent transparency is what many would like to see out of Dr. Caner and Liberty. I mean even to appear that they are walking in that direction might calm the storm for the moment and bring glory to Christ.

Robert said...

Mohammed,
if Muslems dont beat women ....why did Franklin Graham say so on National TV.
Do you beat women?

john said...

Kevin,

Since Liberty is in essence a Independent Baptist and only formally a SBC entity, I don't think the Liberty and TRBC's leadership care too much about explaining their philosophy re. Ergun Caner to outsiders. They tend to practice second degree separation as it was in the past. Hence, there is no need to answer nobody beyond themselves. They are not responsible nor accountable to the 'compromised' organizations out there.

Calcun

Christiane said...

Calcun wrote this:

"I don't think the Liberty and TRBC's leadership care too much about explaining their philosophy re. Ergun Caner to outsiders. They tend to practice second degree separation as it was in the past. Hence, there is no need to answer nobody beyond themselves. They are not responsible nor accountable to the 'compromised' organizations out there."


The world 'out there', the one that Liberty hopes to reach 'for Christ' is still watching.


It's God's Laws that were scandalized by Caner whom Liberty hired to head their school of theology. How strange is this?
The 'world' knows that Liberty IS ACCOUNTABLE and DOES ANSWER (supposedly) to a 'higher Authority' in this matter.

Or maybe not.

We shall see.

Lydia said...

Mohammed,
if Muslems dont beat women ....why did Franklin Graham say so on National TV.
Do you beat women?

Fri Apr 23, 11:05:00 AM 2010


Robert, Can't you find a better example? There are tons of them with Islam. My problem with the above is that the SBC is not much better. After all, we promote Bruce Ware (SBTS) who teaches that an unsubmissive wife triggers abuse from her husband. He also teaches that women are made in the indirect image of God...a derivative.

Scary when you think how close they are to Islamic teaching on women's "roles".

Lee said...

Liberty University just invited a professing, active member of the Mormon church to address its commencement. I wonder what Joe Blackmon thinks about that?

Living the Christian life is not easy. Part of the humility that is supposed to be part of the DNA of the faith is the recognition that it isn't humanly possible to conquer sin in your life, that you must depend on the Holy Spirit, and that only God working through you can do that. If you can't admit your own struggles, and keep laying them at the foot of the cross, you are setting yourself up for a fall.

I am so encouraged by the comments of so many people here who have genuinely expressed the true nature of Jesus, and are being obedient and submissive to God.