"I went to Jerusalem to become acquainted (Gk. istoria) with Cephas" - Paul's words from Galatians 1:18.

A Pastor Tells the Poor in His Congregation Its All Right To Steal for Food

MSN is reporting that a priest in York, England is telling the poor in his congregation that it is proper, as a last resort, to shoplift food in time of need. Father Tim Jones is quoted by his hometown paper as saying, "With a heavy heart a I tell you that it’s okay to shoplift from big chain stores -- but only if you have no other choice. It’s the least worst option and is preferable to robbery or prostitution. I do not offer such advice because I think that stealing is a good thing, or because I think it is harmless, for it is neither. I would ask that you do not steal from small, family businesses, but from large national businesses, knowing that the costs are ultimately passed on to the rest of us in the form of higher prices. I would ask you not to take any more than you need, for any longer than you need.

The uproar over the pastor's remarks is enormous. I just have one question. What's the difference between the poor in England being encouraged to steal food in their time of need and the good citizens of Nebraska being led by their Democratic Senator to steal their payments for medicare medicaid bills from the pockets of people in other states?

173 comments:

Steven Stark said...

Nebraska deal sounds like it should be looked in to....

...but please, who would not steal if they were truly hungry, or especially to feed their family?

Steve said...

The institutionalized theft of buying votes with money forced from taxpayers at virtual gunpoint is so much an everyday thing in Washington D.C. that it would appear we are ripe for either insurrection or a string of secessions beginning in the West.

Where's those good old conquering Assyrians when we need 'em?

Wade Burleson said...

I would think the alternative would be to "beg" and not to steal.

But, I agree with you, the Nebraska deal needs to be looked into.

Bob Cleveland said...

One was a legal action perpetrated by a bunch of guys impersonating honest politicians, and the other is an illegal action proposed by someone impersonating a man of the cloth.

I mean .. if he was really what he purports to be, wouldn't he suggest the hungry come to the church to be fed?

Oh wait. They were already in church.

Sounds like their church and our congress are having a "dumb-off". I don't know who's winning, but I'm pretty sure it's us who are losing.

Thy Peace said...

Maybe Britain should institute food stamps for their citizens.

But on the other hand I find that the british govt. there does provide money if a family fails to make the minimum. And also they have free education and health care.

In the US, here is some info about food stamps and that it's usage has gone up in the recent economic mess.

NYT > Food Stamp Usage Across the Country.

NYT > Food Stamp Use Soars, and Stigma Fades.

On the other hand Pork is an established practice to get votes in both the Senate and the Congress.

Kevin M. Crowder said...

One thing:

The great people in Nebraska will be guilty only if they re-elect this freak. Every present sitting democrat congressman and senator needs firing. Not to do so is a crime against America.

I honestly believe Obamination WANTS to be shot. According to his beliefs he will get 70 some odd virgins to play with for eternity.


k

Thy Peace said...

In some ways I have some empathy for Father Tim Jones. I do not agree with him about stealing, but compared to other degradations being "voluntarily" being suffered by women to meet their family's needs has to be addressed. I also understand in England, they have a better safety net than in US.

Please read this shocker article that appeared in NYT Magazine more than 5 years ago about prostitution that takes place within US.

The Girls Next Door.

For some reason it has become more socially acceptable in this country to sell one self sexually. And lot of times it is forced slavery.

I do have to credit President George W. Bush for taking a lead to prosecute sexual slavery around the world.

Wade Burleson said...

Kevin,

Your comment comes very close to crossing the line. Spread a little bit of the love you express for Paige to Obama. They both are deserving of Christian grace, even if we disagree with their beliefs.

Kevin M. Crowder said...

Wade,

You give your 300.00 per month Country Club membership away to someone who cannot afford it this year (2010) and I will recant my disdain for the criminal who has disgraced my nation's highest office. Or better yet, instuct your church's finance committe to forward that 300.00 instead to the local food pantry for 12 payment in 2009.


That is a challenge.



K ( I do however promise to stay a bit farther back from the line int he future.)

Steven Stark said...

Kevin,

Please hit reset. wow.

Begging is a good start for sure, this is true. But there are worse things in the world than stealing, like starving.

CB Scott said...

Kevin,

Wade is giving you some very good advice about "crossing the line" in your last comment. Maybe you should ask him to delete it.

It would be for your own good and would take to long to explain on a comment thread.

cb

Christiane said...

What DO decent Christian women in this country do when they are desperate to help their families to survive? I found out the answer on this blog:

THEY SELL THEIR OWN BLOOD.

May God have mercy on us

Kevin M. Crowder said...

CB,

If I wanted it deleted I have the ability to do that myself.

But I am not sure that is necessary.

I am sure I am have come close to several line--many of them relative. The line to which Wade was refering (int he context of his comment) was that my post was not totally grace filled. I get that, I confess that, yet I do not recant at this time.

If anyone is refering to another line then i am not interested in that dialogue--on blog or off.

In Christ,

K

Christiane said...

KEVIN,
follow C.B.'s advice.
Please.

Love, L's

Thy Peace said...

I do not know how many of you have heard "dumpster diving". It is popular amongst the young in Philadelphia. They mostly do this on upscale grocery stores.

From what I understand, the stores can not distribute this food that is about to go bad and be responsible for distribution if something bad happens. So they dump food. Lots of it. Into the dumpsters.

And all these young people go around in their cars to do "dumpster diving". I am sure it is illegal.

Kevin M. Crowder said...

Steven Stark,

I am not sure what it is that you mean. I was not commenting to the OP's Pastoral advice of stealing. My opinion of that? That pastor is giving bad and unbiblical advice. Stealing from a brick and mortar grocer is the last of a hundred steps to keep from starving. Pride gets in the way of most from not taking those other steps first. This priest needs a lesson on pride himself so that he can properly preach to his flock. Shame on him! God have mercy on him!

Our churches need to be offering a free soup and bread meal several times a week to poor families and free milk to children on the weekends, and to mothers with babies. We also need to be hosting free clinics once or twice a month.

The love of Christ's people will help to tear down the pride of poverty.

K

Kevin M. Crowder said...

"THEY SELL THEIR OWN BLOOD.

May God have mercy on us"

L's,

How is that any different from Obamination selling the blood of thousands upon thousands of fallen and slain soldiers of wars and decades past???

I shall not recant!

Christiane said...

Hi THY PEACE,

My dear father, of blessed memory, used to do a version of 'dumpster diving'.

He worked three jobs to send us to university, and he also had this hobby: he loved 'trash day' when people put out their old broken appliances and televisions, etc. for the trashman. Pop would go around the neighborhood and scoup up any item that he knew he could repair or use for parts. As Pop was a genius electronically, he could make anything work. Actually, we were pretty proud of him. He didn't care what people thought, and most of the neighbors really liked him anyway. We learned a lot about what was really important from that good man. Pop always said that, 'if you could make something work again, that was a good thing'. :)
'miss him muchly today. L's

Thy Peace said...

L's for some reason in this country lot of food that is "edible" though perishing is thrown into the dumpsters. There are non-profits that take some of this food before it gets to the dumpsters, but lot of times, these non-profits that feed the homeless and hungry do not have the staff or the volunteers or the vehicles to receive this food. Hence it gets tossed into the dumpster.

I am sure the health care debate will go on in this post. Here are two links from "liberal" press, via Google Labs, Living Stories:

The Struggle Over Health Care - The New York Times.

Washington Tackles Health Care Reform - The Washington Post.

Thy Peace said...

Here is a comment left by Pastor Wade as an answer to a question from New BBC Open Forum about Golf Club Membership.

Kevin M. Crowder said...

Thy Peace,

You just made my point. Thank you for resurrecting Wade's response. Allow me to fold this into our pecan pie.

A couple points of interest:

If I were to become the next pastor of Emmanuel, I would before taking office, instruct the personnel committee to deal with the matter of the lavish country club membership. You see I do not play golf. I find the game boring. I would instruct them that I could not be the pastor of a church who spends 3600 dollars a year to save 5000. I would encourage them to "sell" the membership and fold that expense into benevolence until the new budget is adopted to eliminate the line item.

Second point: Many of the items on display at Pecan Manor belong to the seminary. Priceless artifacts and gifts. The next SWBTS president will have the joy and benefit of carrying on the same priceless tradition of bringing holiday cheer to the guests and residences of PM. The rest is simply personal decorations the Patterson’s have collected themselves through family Christmas observances throughout the years (they are old and should have a lot). I bet you have boxes of Christmas goodies L's, Rex, CB, PB, et al...

I would be willing to bet that Emmanuel's golf stock could be sold for around 2500. in this economy, plus the 3600. for 2010 comes to 6100.00



Who on here thinks Emmanuel and its pastor needs to give 6100.00 to the poor and hungry of Enid this year. Do it for Jesus!

Maybe now we know the real truth behind Emmanuel's not building a bigger building. Sure they could have swung the cost, but the increased yearly budget would not have been able to support her pastor's lavish lifestyle.


Ize just sayin;

Ya'know?

Foshizzel!

Lydia said...

From what I understand, the stores can not distribute this food that is about to go bad and be responsible for distribution if something bad happens. So they dump food. Lots of it. Into the dumpsters.


When Ike hit here, stores were dumping tons of meat and food. Why can't they give it out? They want to but GOVERNMENT regulations open them to massive fines and even closure not to mention many lawsuits if someone gets food poisoning or something. They would rather give it away.

Just the effects of letting government control everything.

Lydia said...

"The uproar over the pastor's remarks is enormous. I just have one question. What's the difference between the poor in England being encouraged to steal food in their time of need and the good citizens of Nebraska being led by their Democratic Senator to steal their payments for medicare bills from the pockets of people in other states? "

There is no difference. Welcome to rationing. Did socialized medicine supporters really believe that there would not be pork based rationing involved?

This is what happens when the government bakes one big pie we all have to share. That is Keynsian economics. It is always based on scarcity.

The free enterprise system encourages folks to bake more pies and even create new recipes. but those days are over because now government regulates the ingredients.

rick t said...

Kevin. Wade generally plays golf on Friday, which is his day off, when he takes a day off. It's a great way to meet and misister to folks in the community. A strong moral character is needed in this type of community of folks, and Wade offers that to them. He is a good golfer, and why not use that gift as a ministry tool. He took me out there on my 60th birthday and it was obvious when talking to folks he is well respected. He would probly not dwell on this but several months back we had the funeral for a man that was well respected in the community that Wade led to the Lord on the golf course. Someone he had been witnessing to for awhile. The man accepted Jesus right in the middle of the round. If not for the churches' initiative that man might not be in heaven today. There is no lamenting over the cost if it results in the salvation of ONE soul. Just some food for thought.

Kevin M. Crowder said...

Umm,

I am for less government and fewer regulations, but the govt has a duty to step in and prohibit large corporations from giving away expired perishables in the name of benevolence.

Kevin M. Crowder said...

rick t,


And you think that Dr. Patterson does not use his hunting hobby for the glory of the kingdom??? In fact he does. In fact one could argue he has led thousands of men to the Lord through his outdoor and big game adventures. Are you and Wade counting the costs for Paige and not for Wade?

How much does one soul cost?

Could Dr. Dorothy's trees and banquets and tea's not give encouragement to pastor's wives, or others whom she entertains--spreading love and Gospel truth? Are "female hobbies" not covered by the Gospel insurance plan?

k

Lydia said...

I am for less government and fewer regulations, but the govt has a duty to step in and prohibit large corporations from giving away expired perishables in the name of benevolence.

Sat Dec 26, 11:24:00 AM 2009

hmmmm. So you think people are so stupid they cannot make their own decisions about such things after a huge storm? Must be the results of public education.

rick t said...

Kevin, Wade has nothing to do with what i said. This post has nothing to do with PP. I'm responding to this post only. If i had something worthwhile to say about the other thing i would have posted it.

New BBC Open Forum said...

"And you think that Dr. Patterson does not use his hunting hobby for the glory of the kingdom???"

If you consider the "glory of the kingdom" shooting and stuffing it one head at a time... I suppose one could make that claim.

"Could Dr. Dorothy's trees and banquets and tea's not give encouragement to pastor's wives, or others whom she entertains--spreading love and Gospel truth?"

If I were a young, struggling student or pastor's wife I would think having such a lavish lifestyle flaunted in my face would be discouraging, not encouraging. It would only make tomorrow's Ramen noodles that much harder to swallow.

New BBC Open Forum said...

"How much does one soul cost?"

In human terms? Nothing. Or at least a whole lot less than the cost of a country club membership, the annual salary of a pastry chef, or an African safari.

Lydia said...

"If I were a young, struggling student or pastor's wife I would think having such a lavish lifestyle flaunted in my face would be discouraging, not encouraging. It would only make tomorrow's Ramen noodles that much harder to swallow.

Sat Dec 26, 11:44:00 AM 2009

Ahhh...but they are dreaming of that for themselves one day. And that is what they are being taught to pursue when living off offerings of others like the Pattersons have always done.

Kevin M. Crowder said...

"So you think people are so stupid they cannot make their own decisions about such things after a huge storm?"

You are probably right about the public education thing. But the answer sadly is yes. This is a result of sin no doubt. People will do rash things to attempt to stay alive. Even eat things that will make them sick or kill them or spread diseases.

And it is the less educated/informed who are usually at the front of the line. They are "the least of these" and it is the churches responsibility to feed the hungry with "good grain" from the storehouse, not that which has been left to spoil.

When people do not reply on the provision of God and horde their manna in a greedy and defiled way, there comes spoilage and disease and pestilence. Sins creates this stupidity of which you speak.


Jesus said that man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God. (that word is the holy provisions God has made for those who love Him, and the provisions he has given to those who do not, out of His holy goodness.)

K

New BBC Open Forum said...

"Ahhh...but they are dreaming of that for themselves one day."

And how many of them are going to feel like complete failures when they never achieve that lifestyle?

New BBC Open Forum said...

"Jesus said that man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God. (that word is the holy provisions God has made for those who love Him, and the provisions he has given to those who do not, out of His holy goodness.)"

Kind of rings hollow (like one's stomach) when one hasn't eaten in two days.

Kevin M. Crowder said...

rick t,

Wade has EVERYTHING to do with it. He is the Pastor. He accepts a lifestyle he himself calls lavish and condenms others for the same. He is the shepherd of his flock. If his finance committee is dipping too far into the storehouse for his comfort he has a divine duty to stop them.

All of Wade's blog posts are interconnected, they flow out of the organic mind of Wade. I am simply connecting the dots and rafting down this obvious fluid path.

PP is relevant when Wade brings him up and denigrates the Kingdom work he and Dr. Dorothy do.

Kevin M. Crowder said...

new bbc,

"Or at least a whole lot less than the cost of a country club membership, the annual salary of a pastry chef, or an African safari."

At least you lumped them all together. Some on here think it is ok for Wade but not for PP.

I find no fault with any of it. I support PP and Wade to have hobbies which can be used to glorify the king of the kingdom. I am not counting the costs--others are--but only in reference to Patterson.

K

PS: I bet DRS Patterson both had their share of ramen noodles in their own seminary days. RN 's builds character. Ask Paul Burleson about cereal and character--He eats quite well these days I understand. As does the whole Burleson clan, even the ones being shipped off to expensive out of state private universities.


K ;)

believer333 said...

"And you think that Dr. Patterson does not use his hunting hobby for the glory of the kingdom???"

You asked for an 'opinion'? :)

No, I don't. I think he uses it for his own glory.

Kevin M. Crowder said...

"Kind of rings hollow (like one's stomach) when one hasn't eaten in two days."

Oh cry me a bloody river!

In the same context Jesus hadn't eaten for 40!

Get real!

Kevin M. Crowder said...

b333,

You think wrong.

I have heard the testimonies. You are wrong. Do not be a hate monger.

K

New BBC Open Forum said...

Anyone know how to make the little "rolling eyes" emoticon on here?

Lydia said...

"And it is the less educated/informed who are usually at the front of the line. They are "the least of these" and it is the churches responsibility to feed the hungry with "good grain" from the storehouse, not that which has been left to spoil"

Kevin, Let's get some perspective.
When I mentioned Ike, I was thinking of the Gourmet food market down the street that was throwing out Filet Mignon and pate. Many folks out cleaning up yards were asking why not give it away or pull the grill out, cook it and sell it? (They always grill on Saturdays)

They said they could not because of government regulation. Even though the meat had stayed cold enough in the unopened fridges, they were under government regulation to throw it away. This throwing away took place the day of the storm. The stuff had not even reached room temp.

My point? Individuals cannot make decisions on either end wthout fear of the government.

Lydia said...

PP is relevant when Wade brings him up and denigrates the Kingdom work he and Dr. Dorothy do.

Sat Dec 26, 11:55:00 AM 2009
Like Dr. Klouda?

Joel said...

Our Lord tells us how we may truly know someone:

"15 ‘Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17In the same way, every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus you will know them by their fruits. " St. Matthew 7

Lydia is right. Dr. Klouda and her family have suffered much from the bitter fruit of her persecutor.

Tom Parker said...

Kevin:

You said--"I honestly believe Obamination WANTS to be shot. According to his beliefs he will get 70 some odd virgins to play with for eternity."

You have crossed the line and should be very ashamed of yourself. But what little bit I know of you, you will be proud of such a ridiculous comment.

Wade Burleson said...

Kevin,

There is, unlike you suggest, no stock in the CC membership. There is an initiation fee which EBC paid fifteen years ago. It is non-refundable. Of course, it has increased significantly since then, but it is only paid once, and the new higher initiation is not paid by companies (like EBC) who have already have purchased corporate memberships in years past. You are correct that the dues are $300 a month. That is included as a benefit to the Senior Pastor of EBC, whomever he may be. The Finance Committee and Personnel Committee both believe that the $3,600 is money well spent in terms of community relations, evangelism, and outreach. Further, they feel it would be unwise stewardship to forfeit the low initiation fee they invested years ago. Rick T. brings out a great point about relationships developed with the lost in our community through the membership. Truth be told, much of what we received in our $220,000.00 offering last Sunday came from people who joined Emmanuel through relationships developed at the CC. That can feed a number of hungry people through our Benevolence Program that is funded by our budget. If the Finance or Personnel Committees ever believe this is an inappropriate way to spend $3,600 there will not be one word of complaint from me.

Finally, I think you may be missing my point about SWBTS. I have said to you that I don't disagree that the Pattersons ought to be allowed to live their lives how they feel the Lord leading them. The bigger question for me is turning a Seminary into a homemaking degree program where people can learn how to cook, sew, and host parties like those held at Pecan Manor at Christmas. Is this the purpose of seminary? If those who support the Cooperative Program believe it should be--then so be it.

Thanks for your comments. I hope that any questions you have about Emmanuel and the CC membership for their pastor have been answered.

In His Grace,

Wade

Wade Burleson said...

Kevin,

Now, back to the my original statement to you that you seem to have sought to shove aside by changing the conversation to my church's CC membership.

If I were you, I would delete your comment about Obamination wanting to be shot in order to have some 70 odd virgins for eternity, particularly before the Secret Service gets a hold of your comment.

I learned a long time ago that when people are in the wrong, they have a tendency to attack the one who points out the wrong.

Doesn't work, particularly with people like me.

In His Grace,

Wade

Tom Parker said...

Wade:

You said to Kevin:"If I were you, I would delete your comment about Obamination wanting to be shot in order to have some 70 odd virgins for eternity, particularly before the Secret Service gets a hold of your comment."

I 100% agree. If the Secret Service get's a hold of Kevin's comment, it might not be pretty.

We are only trying to help you, Kevin.

believer333 said...

Kevin, interestingly your dialogue toward me was quite a bit more respectful when you thought I was male. Why is that.

As to your charge, I don't hate Paige Patterson. I just don't believe your claims as to his greatness. And there has been so much harm that he has done in the public eye, that I do indeed question his motives. That is reasonable.

CB Scott said...

Kevin,

I am going to say again that Wade is giving you some good advice on the statement about the president.

Tom Parker has now joined to give the same advice.

You should delete the comment. I just don't think you realize the implications that kind of statement can have for you.

Wade,

Do a "young man" a favor and delete his statement for him. Sometimes zeal can get young men in trouble as you and I both know. Give him a break on this one.

cb

Christiane said...

Wade, please help Kevin.

believer333 said...

Ditto. We were all young once. :)

Young passion can often be a bit wild!

Thy Peace said...

I am afraid it is little bit too late to delete Kevin's comment about Obama. For his comment has become part of a slew of other comments where it has been quoted.

I would gently encourage Kevin to do the following:

1. Learn to play Golf.

Why? It teaches you humility and focus.

Also please read these two books by P.G.Wodehouse. Who knows? You might find a significant other through this game.

Fore!: The Best of Wodehouse on Golf.

Golf Without Tears.

2. Diversify your news sources. (besides Fox News)

Believe it or not, Obama is also strongly being questioned by the liberals who strongly supported him.

NYT > The Thread: Good Year and Good Luck.
On health care reform, what did President Obama stand for and when did he stand for it?

Wade Burleson said...

CB,

Those who write various comments have the ability to delete them. I long ago gave up playing comment police.

Kevin M. Crowder said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kevin M. Crowder said...

Wade,

Now back to the real issue. I have no real issue with your CC membership as a benefit to you the pastor. I have said that in the past and I think you know that. I also think you know that I was making a comparison. The President of SWBTS lives in PM. Would you have them tear it down and build a smaller one? Or would you consider the ministries they perform out of their home to be valuable ones? The CP is only part of the annual revenues the Seminary receives. Much of the money comes from benefactors who are wined and dined right at PM so that the students may have cheaper tuition. Even Dr. Mohler posted a few pictures of one of his such parties on fb. Doesn't look like less is being spent there. In fact every potential Southern Student is invited to a dessert social at the Mohler's on campus home twice a year. This is part of the wooing of seminary students--has been as far back as history recounts. PM is no different, only that benefactors around the world have donated Christmas ornaments and other artifacts for PM as it too serves as sort of a museum for Seminary collectibles I am sure.

I wish also you would get off your Homemaking Degree rampage. Other seminaries do similar things--none will call it "homemaking degree" but if we are taking issue with the name then call it something different. An institution of the Lord Jesus Christ training up ministry wives in an area that some ministry wives so desperately want help with. Besides their classroom setting and labs have all been donated. You precious CP dollars have not been spent.

Petty-Petty-Petty!

K

Kevin M. Crowder said...

An Open Letter to the United States Secret Service:

I believe President Obama is indeed a Muslim. That is not a crime to think that. I [don't] think he would have problem, as other Jihadists don't, with being martyred for his cause, for the reward in HIS heaven is 70+ virgins.

Wade and others on this blog would try to twist my words and tell you that I desire to make this happen. They are as foolish as the day is long. I may be wrong in my observation of Obama. But I have a right to make the observation--one no doubt many of you have made as well.

I wish no harm on our President and have even committed to pray for him each day while he is in office. But it seems to me he continues to do things that royally tick off every demographic, every religion, every gender, and so forth in America. It’s like, who does he think he works for???

So, I hope you had a Merry Christmas and hope that you too get a chuckle out of Wade's accusing me of sounding like I want to do harm to the occupier of The Oval.


Blessings,

K

Kevin M. Crowder said...

Because that totally fits teh context better. Where are those rolling eyes when you need them.


So are you suggesting that the President will become a white raisin? Isn't that sort of like an old white guy....er a republican?


hehe

Thy Peace said...

I deleted the earlier comment about "white raisins", mainly because the scholarship of the work is in question.

Wiki > The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran.

Wade Burleson said...

Kevin, I am confident you intend no harm to our President. My concern was that your first comment could be misunderstood by those who do not know of you. I trust you have cleared that up.

Tom Parker said...

Kevin:

It still appears the gravity of your words have not reached your brain yet.

You think you are playing with matches, but you are playing with fire.

The joke at this point in time is on you.

Kevin M. Crowder said...

"It still appears the gravity of your words have not reached your brain yet."

Possibly, but rest assured dear Tom, they came from the heeart. ;)

K

BaptistPlanet said...

Wade,
With regard to "beg and not steal," you must be aware that Anglican Priest Tim Jones was speaking to the issues faced by ex-prisoners and that he dealt with begging.
Jones' background includes prison ministry, so among other things he noted in his sermon that "found begging, they will quickly be in trouble with the police, and therefore in breach of their parole."
The case he made was distinctly British but parole officers with whom I am acquainted readily came up with similar, real-life, close by examples. None counseled stealing, but conceded the reality of the trap Jones described.

John Fariss said...

When I lived in southside Virginia, several of the grocery stores there donated their out-of-date bread stuffs (and occasionally other products) to our church, and we subsequently distributed them to places where it was really needed--shelters, the homeless, some really poor folks. Why did they do it? Two reasons: once, because their managers had hearts, and two, enforcement of health codes there was lax, so they could get away with it. Now I live in Maryland, in a DC suburb. Guess what? There are grocery store managers here with just as big a hearts as in southside Virginia, but they don't give us (or anyone else) their out-of-date bread. Why? Because the health department would throw them under the jail, close the deli departments (if not the whole store), and their insurance rates would skyrocket or the policies be cancelled, without which they could not operate. And dumsper diving is illegal here too. You tell me what's wrong with this picture.

I don't think I would ever advise anyone to steal; but I can easily imagine circumstances under which I would not condemn them either.

John Fariss said...

Kevin,

It's a free country, so you can think President Obama worships green cheese if you want to. (and yes, I refer to him respectfully, not because I agree with him on all issues, but because the office of the President demands it--as I refer to any President, including those who were colossal failures like President Hoover, President Harding, and President Grant). But on the other hand Kevin, what do you think Muslims do/think of someone who acknowledges Jessu Christ as Lord? They certainly don't accept that person as a Muslim. In fact, that is the greatest sin a Muslim can commit--to ascribe any portion, no matter how small, of God's divinity to anyone other than God, even including Mohammed. And I don't think they believe in "stealth Muslims" any more than we do in "stealth Christians."

John

Christiane said...

FROM: GAUDIUM et SPES

"The joy and hope, the grief and anguish of the people of our time, especially of those who are poor and afflicted in any way, are the joy and hope, the grief and anguish of the followers of Christ as well."


Perhaps Father Tim Jones has his unique way of sharing in the anguish of his suffering parishioners?


I think Father Tim has interpreted 'Gaudium et Spes' HIS way. He will be criticized, and reviled, but he reminds me of someone.

He reminds me of a father whose handicapped son fell into a deep well (part of a sewage system) and was drowning. The man went into the sewage and stood underneath his son, holding him up so that his son's head was above the sewage. The son was saved from death. The man perished.

This priest will get dirty. His reputation will be ruined. He knows it. But he's doing it anyway.

There are lessons in here, I think.
They go a little deeper into Christianity than 'nice people' care to go. They go into that place where there is pain to be shared, for the sake of Christ.

Caritas Christi

Liam Madden said...

(This post is one of two parts):

Wade,

No need to draw back from you original censurious remarks on Kevin's comments. Isn't there Biblical warning against "hate"speech. In the sermon on the mount, doesn't Jesus warn that hate is just as much a sin as murder, and that those who verbally assault others are just as liable to judgement as those

Personally, I'm proud of our president and thank God for him every day. He's not my Obamassiah, I just notice that he's a decent family man who brings an intelligence and seriousness to his job which has been somehwhat lacking during the previous eight years.

Some says he's not very accomplished. But his accomplishments include:

1) Putting pressure on both Palestinians and Israelis to get them to the bargaining table; thus far, suicide bombings are down as both sides work within a critical window to get back in step with the peace process.

2) Successfully negotiated release of U.S. hostages from Korea. (without use of force).

3) Successfully rescued and American ship's captain from pirates; afterward, coordinated a successful and ongoing anti-piracy campaign

4) re-set American relations with the Muslim world. Continues to fight extremists (many al-Qaeda killed; much new pressure on Pakistan to get results) while also reaching out to moderate Muslims to partner in the fight against terrorism. This is the smart approach. It will simply not be possible to kill every Muslim to win the war on terrorism. If a win comes, it will come by partnerships with peace loving Muslims.

5) Successfully bailed out the economy. Yes, I said successfully. The bailouts were enormously expensive, but in the majority of cases there was no real alternative. And he did this without temporarily nationalizing the banking sector (which Sweden did, with better results). Has shown sensitivity to our free market system, and is generally letting financiers work out their own recoveries.

7) Studied the issue and gave Gen. MChrystal most of the troops he requested for a "surge" in Afghanistan.

I could list more examples of successes. His critics must be very frustrated because in spite of their efforts to Carter-ize him (prove him weak) or Clinton-ize him (catch him in some scandal), they haven't been able to do it.

Liam Madden said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Liam Madden said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Liam Madden said...

(This post is part 2 of two parts)

Of all of the different types of criticism that are lobbed at him, though, the one that I find the most offensive is the notion that he's not a Christian. I think arguments of that sort are really based in a distortion of what it means to be a Christian, a kind of branding of Christianity for political purposes that we've become so accustomed to that many have begun to think that that is what Christianity is. We've gotten too used to having Presidents who talk about Jesus too casually and manipulate religious sentiment in order to get votes. Just because Obama is a Christian that doesn't look like "us" or walk the walk quite like "us" or talk the talk quite like "us" doesn't mean that there is not an active or even vibrant Christian faith there. And the fact that he doesn't actively bend over to please the old guard of American's self-appointed evangelical watchdogs and "leaders" may not be such a bad thing.

When we pause to look at deeper Christian issues, such as a serious commitment to the hard work of peace-building or peace-making, I think we will have to agree that there is much to admire there. I see Nehemiah-type character in this man; he has a sword in one hand, but he's not forgetting to build with the other. Leaders have not only the responsibility to protect their people, but also the responsibility to promote their general well-being.

(As an aside here, most conservatives continue to argue that the only proper role of the federal government is defense. But that's not what the Constitution states. Along with defense, it states other broad aims, such as to "establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, and to promote the general welfare.").

Here I've begun a preliminary defense of the idea of Barack Obama as a practicing Christian.

It's an important topic that deserves to be discussed seriously.

Wade, would you consider devoting a whole blog posting just to this topic so that all of the views about it can be gotten out onto the table?

Lydia said...

Liam, Of course you like Obama enough to rewrite history. I see you are in education, specifically in Humanities at a post secondary institution..

I would not expect to find free market Republicans enmasse there. :o)

You seem to forget that he sat under Jeremiah Wright's preaching of Marxist Liberation Theology for 20 years. He only repudiated Wright during the campaign because clips of his sermons were becoming quite embarassing for him.

Would a believer with the indwelling Holy Spirit make his career on being the point guy to legally make sure born alive aborted babies are denied any medical care? You do understand that he WORKED hard in the Ill legislature to make sure they were denied medical care? You and I must not be reading the same scripture.

And keep in mind I have denounced the evangelical right wing culture war. But you have joined the left wing religious culture war that wants power over every aspect of our lives. To me, there is no difference. Both say they represent Jesus Christ. And both are wrong.

Christiane said...

I think Obama has been influenced by this:

http://www.osjspm.org/majordoc_gaudium_et_spes_part_one.aspx


and also by part two.

I'm sure of it.

Liam Madden said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Liam Madden said...

Dear Lydia,
You assume a lot about me. I grew up a conservative Southern Baptist like most who blog here. I also served as an SBC journeyman overseas and had a successful evangelistic ministry there. It's also true that as the SBC skewed too far to the right for my tastes, that I broke off and now partner with other Baptist groups and Great Commission Christians wherever I find them. I read the same Bible that you do, pray just like you do, attend worship just like you do, and I am active in missions ministries just as I imagine that you are.

Please don't be so quick to judge or accuse someone that you don't know very well. But I will add that those aspects of scripture that some consider leftist--the prophetic ministry of the prophets, the scriptural emphasis on social justice, a concern for the poor, the disenfranchised, and the "stranger" in the land," and the Jubilee traditions of liberation--I consider these to be valid aspects of scriptural and Christian testimony and practice, not merely a modern overlay or a Marxist mis-reading of the text. And some of that belief does undergird my sense of responsibility as a Christian to participate in social ministries (medical missions, volunteering at homeless shelter, that sort of thing).

But back to your post, you stated:

"And keep in mind I have denounced the evangelical right wing culture war. But you have joined the left wing religious culture war that wants power over every aspect of our lives."

Please explain the last statement a little more. As I look around in America, I just don't see a very organized or threatening Left with a capital "L." No one takes Communism/Marxism seriously as a serious economic doctrine or plan. What I do see is gaggle of disparate concerns (healthcare, the environment, rising poverty/decline of American middle class, economy in transition from old energy/old industrial economy to something new that hasn't taken shape yet, and of course and unsustainable healthcare model--rising costs, lack of availability of basic preventive care). I did not see any serious effort to tackle these problems during the Bush years. Whether deliberate or accidental, the war on terror was a huge distraction that lulled the nation into putting off any serious discussion or action on these problems. To take people, such as myself, who are concerned about some or all of the problems listed above and label them lefist seems misleading. To conclude, I just don't see a monolithic Left in this country; also, the people that make up the groups that are labeled as Left seem to me to be relatively powerless and to have some valid concerns. Can you explain a bit more about why you feel threatened by such a mixed bag of poor, young, minorities, students, or whatever they are?

Not as a tit-for-tat sort of thing, but as an honest question: Do you think they want more "total control" over your life than say, corporations, advertisers, TV networks, credit card companies, or certain self-appointed leaders of the Christian world. To be honest, I find Obama less scary or threatening than some of those.

Charles R said...

I'm sorry that I'm not surprised that no one has mentioned the mistake in your post. The Nelson deal was over Medicaid NOT Medicare. Medicare is health care insurance for Americans 65+. It has multiple parts including the multibillion dollar Part D pushed and passed by the Bush administration with no plan to pay for it.

Medicaid is assistance in paying for SOME bit of health care for those who live below a certain income level. Medicaid costs are divided between the Federal government and states. While it is an unfunded mandate, it is also great motivation for state governments to work hard to raise the standard of living for their residents.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Someone astutely observed that Paige Patterson's "Welllll... goooood eve-en-ing!" reminded them of Sivad, a character who hosted horror movies on Memphis TV in the 1960s.

About Sivad

Lydia said...

"No one takes Communism/Marxism seriously as a serious economic doctrine or plan."

They do not need to. It is now firmly planted within our national psychological makeup. When the most hardcore independent workers in our country took subsidies NOT to grow crops, a form of Marxism became inbred. We just do not call it that nor do we recognize it for what it is. I use farmers as just one example of many.

What most do not realize is that the New Deal WAS a revolution. Not of protests or arms but one of bookkeeping and laws.

That is why economic crises are so important to leftists and very important to prolong as much as possible. So the people will cry: Give us bread. It works.

And leftist Christians will say it is Christian to hand over your money to Caesar so he can decide who merits the bread.

Lydia said...

"Do you think they want more "total control" over your life than say, corporations, advertisers, TV networks, credit card companies, or certain self-appointed leaders of the Christian world. To be honest, I find Obama less scary or threatening than some of those."

Well, since I do not watch TV and ignore most of the popular culture I find they control our family very little. At least I have a choice in the matter. With Obama, I won't. This is a man that wanted to pass a law making it mandatory to buy health insurance. This is also a man that has NO clue what it takes to build a small business since he was pretty much on the government grant dole most of his life.

His comments on small businesses were so ignorant, I was embarassed for him.

Lydia said...

Liam, Just for another perspective, may I recommend a book?

The Road to Serfdom by Friedrich von Hayek

Barbara said...

The priest in England may do well to read Psalm 37:25, "I have been young and now I am old. Yet I have not seen the righteous forsaken, or his descendants begging bread."

Barbara Ebert

Liam Madden said...

Lydia,

I think you and I have some things in common. I certainly don't believe in handouts except for the elderly, the sick, or the disabled.

My grandad was a farmer (modest 120 acre farm), but not the kind that took subsidies or loans or other forms of "aid." While some of his neighbors down the road bought new tractors with loans, I watched as year after year he repaired the old tractor that he already had and kept on using it. In the
1980's, when many farmers went "bust," my granddad retired prosperous.

However, in his old age, he spoke to me of his gratefulness to President Roosevelt--how Roosevelt's creation of the CCC camps had given him a job at a critical time in his early years as a father and a husband when there were simply no jobs to be had. Of course, he worked for every dollar he earned in the work camp. Most of Roosevelt's programs were work programs. And at least, in the case of men such as my grandad, did not lead to a decline in their sense of personal responsibility.

Last month, an article in the Atlanta Journal & Constitution stated that Georgia has spent 1/4 of the stimulus money apportioned to the state, resulting in the creation or maintaining of 23,000 jobs at a total cost of about $27,000 per year per job, most of it for education and infrastructure. Even our Republican governor just welcomed Vice President Joe Biden to thank him and affirm the positive impact of the stimulus on our state.

Of course, like any sensible person, I hope that our entrepreneurial economy and all of the good magic of free markets to help us be the wonderfully innovative, globally comepetitive, job-creating economy that has made us the envy of the world will correct itself and re-assert itself, but in the meantime, in the most serious economic downturn during my lifetime--when jobs are so scarce and even formerly middle-class people are hurting, I do approve of the president's actions in providing stimulus funding for jobs and don't understand why anyone would criticize it.

And again, I am really troubled by the whole "Obama" is not a Christian" or "Obama is a secret Muslim" meme. And I know that you didn't start that on this blog; it was Kevin. But both by his own confession and scriptural measures (not just Southern Baptist stereotypes), it can be argued that he is a good, practicing Christian. SBC folk should consider that if they want to have effective outreach to peoples of other ethnicities, heritages, and traditions, they should restrain themselves from insulting well-educated, successful, decent, and competent people, such as I believe the President is. I'm not saying he's a messiah or without flaws. I'm for fair play, though I will have to concede that I will tend to side with the underdog in any fight, which could reflect a stubborn contrarian streak--perhaps the Irish in me.

Christiane said...

Hi BARBARA EBERT,

You wrote this:

'The priest in England may do well to read Psalm 37:25, "I have been young and now I am old. Yet I have not seen the righteous forsaken, or his descendants begging bread." '

My thought was that, as a priest, Father Tim is attempting to care for those who are less than perfect. Maybe, especially for those who are less than perfect.
(Some see a precedent in Christianity for that effort.)

Although, come to think of it, the good father may be responding to the the Gospel which asks who would give a stone to a child who asked for bread. (?)

I cannot answer for Father Tim.
I know I will not judge him.

Kevin M. Crowder said...

"SBC folk should consider that if they want to have effective outreach to peoples of other ethnicities, heritages, and traditions, they should restrain themselves from insulting well-educated, successful, decent, and competent people, such as I believe the President is."

Thanks for the complement Liam which proceeded this quote. Would you also apply Paige Patterson to this above quote?


K

Lydia said...

Liam, Track the rise of government jobs over the last 70 years. The first 100 years of our government it increased spending 4fold. The next 100 years it increased spending 55x that amount. Then track the timing of that huge increase.

Work programs only prolong the crisis and increase the burden of maintaining a large government that does not actually produce anything. If you look at real figures during the depression, you will see that unemployment stayed between 18-25% the entire time. Why? Overall, we had the same problem we started with. And that is even with the heartwarming FDR worship depression stories.

The real jobs program came from the War and the need to 'produce' and 'invent'. There is a lot of misunderstanding about the Depression. And of course, the government types wrote the history and put it in the textbooks.

What folks like you do not understand and is that the government must first take what it gives out. And since it can only do that to a certain degree before a revolt, they print money and try to control the markets even while nickel and diming us to death with taxes that come in many forms from surtax to property to sales taxes.

George Bush was wrong to start the bail out process. That is like funding carriage makers so they can continue to employ people. It only prolongs the inevitable.

But Obama has taken the bail out to a most ridiculous level. And now he cannot get the bankers to spread the bail out money around. They are holding on to it. He can berate all he wants but he will have to takeover the banks if he wants to run them. That is where it is headed.

And GM has become a joke. Cash for clunkers is a perfect metaphor for this man who is in way over his head. A man who has been on the government grant dole most of his adult life.

But I will say, you sound like most of the profs I had in college many moons ago. Some things do not change. :o)

We are already socialistic. It is only a matter of degrees. Have you noticed that those who merit "bread" are the ones who are bribed with the bread to support the President? Like Senators from Louisiana and Nebraska. Caesar is unjust. It is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys to continue to fund the bottomless pit of government. What are we thinking? We could take a lesson from Ancient Rome.

Liam Madden said...

Dear Kevin,

Merry Christmas! As a professor now and even during my student days, I've always tried to be on time for class. But I'm still glad of the fact that although I was accepted to attend SWBTS, I chose not to attend once I learned why and how Dr. Dilday was fired. So, you know I don't/won't agree with most of what you say. But even though I don't agree with the homemaking classes at SWBTS or PP's cutthroat style of convention politics, I didn't find anything unusual about the Christmastime decor at Pecan Manor, so for once, we were almost on the same page, or Paige, or whatever.

Honestly, I don't know very much about you; what are you up to these days? Pastoring? Seminary student? Both? Or other? Probably not working for the Obama in 2012 campaign, but hey, we can't all be on the winning team.

Lydia said...

Liam, Here is one of my favorite quotes from the Depression. It seems we never learn from our history:

"We have tried spending money, We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work. . . . I say, after eight years of this administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started . . . and an enormous debt to boot."

-- Treasury Secretary Henry Morgenthau to the House Ways and Means Committee in the late 1930s.

Liam Madden said...

Lydia,

Agree with you on the GM bailout. It was one of the companies that should have been allowed to fail (be broken up and sold off).

But I don't agree on the critique of the stimulus jobs program because education and infrastructure are things that we need, and providing such jobs in a downturn doesn't add to bureaucracy or create a standing government agency--in other words, doesn't create "permanent" government jobs that would be a drag on the tax base or private sector. Moreover, the paychecks earned from jobs provided by the stimulus will do what their namesake implies--stimulate the economy because the earners of those wages will spend them on goods and services--cars, durable goods, groceries, etc. How could that be bad?

I am familiar with the critique of Roosevelt and the fact that the Depression was not alleviated until the War. As a Southerner, I cannot ignore evidence that some of his policies made the Depression in the South worse than other parts of the country (There isa well-known essay in my discipline called "The Mind of the South" by Cash that discusses that). Overall, however, your assesssment of FDR seems rather reductive and needlessly cynical--who can deny the reality of the numbers of people helped by the works set in motion by his leadership? Can we imagine the modern South without the electricity that flowed from the dams of the TVA? Would we want to visit Washington D.C. and not see the Jefferson or Lincoln memorials?

Now as then, with an economy in freefall and a near total collapse of the banking system so close at hand; I'm not sure what alternative you would have preferred. Nationalization? But from your earlier posts, I thought that just such government control was what you feared and hoped to avoid.

Anyway, I'm still feeling a little hurt that you want to lump me in with other "professors." I certainly don't waste my time (or theirs) trying to indoctrinate my students with Leftist ideas. Bless their hearts, my students haven't the slightest clue about Karl Marx and I would be lucky if I could get them to turn off their iPhones long enough to correct a comma splice, much less read Karl Marx, (whom I never assign anyway).

I haven't spent my whole useful life in a college classroom. I worked in the health insurance industry to put my way through college. I could have had a lucrative career as a health insurance exec but got out of it because of mixed feelings about the system. The next job I had was working customer service line for a public hospital where I saw firsthand how many people fall thru the cracks of the healthcare system. For myself, I favor action over inaction, and I'm willing to make a sacrifice (i.e. pay a tax) to support a more public healthcare system. I realize that not everyone will share my convictions, but at least mine is based on some inside knowledge and firsthand experience.

Liam Madden said...

"We have tried spending money, We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work. . . . I say, after eight years of this administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started . . . and an enormous debt to boot."
Lydia, I'm pausing to say that I appreciate and respect your views as expressed above. I don't want to be debating just to be debating and seeming to be arguing with and maybe stirring up bad feelings with someone that I don't even know. I know that you're smart and well-read, so I hope you don't think I'm treating you as if you are not. I think any sensible person would have to be concerned about the debt and where that's headed. The spending is an act of faith; I hope it's only temporary and I hope it works. I'm not sure what if any alternatives there were, which is the only reason that I support it.

Barbara said...

Christiane,

Thank you for you thoughtful response to my comment. You're right; I do not know in what context the good father made his comment. That verse is the first thing that came to mind when I read the story. If he was speaking directly to his congregation, it would have been good to think instead of condoning stealing, he would have entreated those who can to give to those in need.

It was not my intention to appear judgmental. I was just very surprised by his remarks.

Your responses are always gracious and thought provoking.

Barbara Ebert

Rex Ray said...

Kevin,
I think the worry some have for your statements about Obama is only worry because you’re too far down on the list for the CIA – FBI etc. to ever reach you.

Check this on the Baptist Standard blog. http://www.baptiststandard.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=10420&Itemid=53

Willie Drake (Second Vice President of the SBC at one time) said on the radio he was praying for the Lord to take Obama. But now he wants to see the president live long enough to stand trial for treason.

The comment section has 38 times the number of most subjects. Most have zero. :)

Some comments:
My definition of treason is changing “Speak Softly and Cary a Big Stick” to ‘Laryngitis carrying a Toothpick’.

Has Obama said anything that would keep America from becoming Muslim?

TREASON to the elderly is in Obama’s health care bill http://tinyurlcom/mcmq6h.

Explain on Dec 6 how 42 billion cut from ‘home health’ made it better?

What once was ‘over the hill’ will change to ‘over the cliff’ for the old folks!

BaptistPlanet said...

Charles R. is right.
The Nelson deal was over Medicaid.
It was not over Medicare, Wade.
Correction?

Lydia said...

"Can we imagine the modern South without the electricity that flowed from the dams of the TVA? Would we want to visit Washington D.C. and not see the Jefferson or Lincoln memorials?"


Here is a perfect example of that lack of understanding.

1. The RECC still exists TODAY. Why? It is no longer needed.

2. The story behind the rewritten history of the RECC:

Ever heard of the Commonwealth and Southern Corp? This was the private sector group fashioned by venture capitalists and industry leaders explicitly to raise the vast sums of capital necessary to light the South.

Here Roosevelt, too, combined a stimulus project with his goals for social equity. He created the Rural Electrification Administration to wire the countryside. He also created the Tennessee Valley Authority to provide hydropower. One can picture private and public working together, and that's what Commonwealth and Southern imagined, too, at first. At a tense meeting at Washington's Cosmos Club in 1933, the company's chief executive, Wendell Willkie, begged a TVA officer, David Lilienthal, to strengthen public-private cooperation. Instead, Lilienthal waged war on Willkie, using the TVA's tax-free status to compete for customers and fighting Commonwealth and Southern in the courts. In 1935, Roosevelt signed a utilities law that so restricted private capital raising that it was known as the "Death Sentence Act."


At the time, observers told themselves that the shift caused no economic loss. But the stock indexes told the real story. Instead of matching or outperforming the industrial average, the Dow Jones utilities average lagged behind. The great "stimulator," government, had emerged as an opponent. The effect, beyond the tragic unemployment, was to slow down the creation of new companies. Even the New Dealers despaired. "

So government goes into business and has, of course, tax free status, it refuses to grant to private industry and because there is no motivation for efficiency and quality with government run institutions they lag behind
and actually undermine job creation and stimulating the economy for the long term.

Rewritten history hardly ever tells the real story behind the story.

Lydia said...

I'm not sure what if any alternatives there were, which is the only reason that I support it.

Sun Dec 27, 03:58:00 AM 2009

Liam, this comment scares me more than anything. What other alternatives? There are tons and one only has to look at the history of our country to figure out what worked and what did not.

The problem is that the leftists want to eliminate all risk in life. And the only way to do that is to become a collectivist society and turn over your life to government. You assume government automatically knows best.

What most do not understand is that all governments eventually become tyrants when given more power over the individual. The bigger they grow the more tyrannical they become.

Why do you assume that governments made up of people who desire power are not as corrupt as the private sector? Why would anyone assume that government paid doctors would care more? Or that government run hospitals would be more efficientand provide better care?

Government does not have the motivation to provide quality, efficiency and develop new technologies.

With the private sector you have choices and even the ability to sue for wrong doing. You cannot do that when government is the provider. You are stuck. I hope you merit the bread. Because in the end, government has to take from someone else to give to you.

Thy Peace said...

NYT > Deep in Health Bill, Very Specific Beneficiaries.

Senator Ben Nelson, Democrat of Nebraska, was the critical final Democrat to endorse the bill. He obtained tighter restrictions on insurance coverage of abortion, and additional Medicaid money and other benefits for his state.
...
Another provision would give $100 million to an unnamed “health care facility” affiliated with an academic health center at a public research university in a state where there is only one public medical and dental school.
...
The Senate health bill, like one passed by the House last month, would impose tough new restrictions on referrals of Medicare patients by doctors to hospitals in which the doctors have financial interests. The package assembled by Mr. Reid would provide exemptions to a small number of such hospitals, including one in Nebraska.

Under the original Senate bill, doctor-owned hospitals could qualify for this exemption if they were certified as Medicare providers by Feb. 1, 2010. Mr. Reid’s proposal would move the deadline to Aug. 1, 2010.

Molly Sandvig, executive director of Physician Hospitals of America, which represents doctor-owned hospitals, said the change would benefit Bellevue Medical Center, scheduled to open next year in Bellevue, Neb.

Under the proposal, Ms. Sandvig said, “doctor-owners can continue to refer Medicare patients to the hospital” in eastern Nebraska.

“Senator Nelson has always been a friend to our industry,” she said. “But doctor-owned hospitals in other states were not so fortunate. They would not meet the Aug. 1 deadline.”
...
Nebraska, with help from Mr. Nelson, won a particularly generous arrangement under which the federal government would indefinitely pay the full cost of covering certain low-income people added to the Medicaid rolls under the bill.
...
“You’ve got to compliment Ben Nelson for playing ‘The Price is Right,’ ” said Senator Richard M. Burr, Republican of North Carolina. “He negotiated a Medicaid agreement for Nebraska that puts the federal government on the hook forever. Not for six years, not for 10 years. This isn’t the Louisiana Purchase; this is the Nebraska windfall.”

Lydia said...

"Now as then, with an economy in freefall and a near total collapse of the banking system so close at hand; I'm not sure what alternative you would have preferred. Nationalization? But from your earlier posts, I thought that just such government control was what you feared and hoped to avoid. "

This comment tells me that you cannot conceive of any other solution but government intervention? Nationalize? Hardly!

Again, you want to eliminate all risk. If the banks fail, they fail. And yes, in the short term, it hurts. It would hurt me in some ways, too.

Enron failed. It was not bailed out. What happened? Where are the thousands of Enron employees today?

We have gotten to the point that we want to be protected from all risks. Why not allow the banks to fail? We have deposit insurance for every single depositor. What more do we want?

What happens if we allow these banks to fail? Worst case scenerio?

Yet the government made sure AIG, which failed, got their big bonuses. Dodd put it in the bill and it embarassed Obama when it came out.

What happened when the government told the banking industry they would guarantee home loans to those who did not qualify?

Again, government intervention that resulted in calamity. Even our private sector is becoming addicted to government largesse when they make very bad decisions.

I don't use banks. I have a family member who is a corporate lawyer who did due diligence on bank mergers all through the 90's. We use credit unions. Always have and always will as long as the government allows. Which may not be for long.

The whalers were put out of business because we stopped using whale oil because of new discoveries. Wasn't that wrong? We should have been forced to continue using it so they could have jobs. Government could have subsidized it. The carriage makers were put out of business and that was wrong because their skills were not transferable to making automobiles. That was wrong. We should have continued making carriages so they could keep their jobs. What about the folks who made typewriters? I know of a typewriter ribbon plant that laid off 600 people back in the 80's. That was wrong? The government should have made sure it stayed open? After all, people were hurt by this and we have to eliminate all risk in life.

That is what we are now doing with these banks. We are propping up a failed system. We always recover faster when the government is not involved.

Lydia said...

"Overall, however, your assesssment of FDR seems rather reductive and needlessly cynical--who can deny the reality of the numbers of people helped by the works set in motion by his leadership?"

1. The actual numbers tell the real story. Both spending numbers and unemployment numbers.

The Depression was actually prolonged and more people were hurt because of it.

2. Am I cynical about FDR? Two facts about him that are rarely spoken:

When the margin calls were threatening the stock market we had NO federal laws to regulate. Only the state could intervene. The President called the governor of NY and asked him to intervene on the margin calls. He refused.

That governor was FDR, who was planning a run for the Presidency.

Also,

FDR's mother, Sara Delano, sent to FDR each month an envelope with his monthly allowance money. This continued throughout his 16 years in the White House. A middle aged man taking allowance money from his rich mommy. And you think he understood the economy? All he understood is that someone gives money to someone else and that fixes everything.

Darrell said...

aRick t,

I agree with you on the witness part of golf. I have done it. For me, though, it is better with a shotgun. Our church men, and many women, all hunt. we have guest that we take hunting for mostly quail and pheasant. WE have witnessed to hundreds like this. Most who would not have heard the gospel otherwise.

Some of the finest food ever is pheasent.

We had a youth rally and had horseback riding, boating, swimming, skeet shooting. be it golf, guns, meals, WHATEVER IT TAKES, (THAT DOES NOT DISPLEASE GO) TO SHARE THE GOSPEL. We baptized a lot of kids from 7 different churches that day in that small lake, only 2 of the churches were baptist.douggic

On Wades post.

I DIDN'T MEAN TO STEAL AND I DIDN'T MEAN TO ROB BUT MY CHILDREN ARE HUNGRY AND I LOST MY JOB.

IT IS EASY TO BE FED AND COMFORTABLE AND JUDGE THOSE THAT ARE HUNGRY.

Jonquil said...

" the stores can not distribute this food that is about to go bad and be responsible for distribution if something bad happens. "

That is why the charity organization "Feeding America" (formerly "Second Harvest") exists; they're one of my two major feed-the-poor donations every year. They establish relations with restaurants, caterers, grocery stores, and others who are likely to have good food going to waste. (Note: they are very careful about health, and make sure that food that might actually be contaminated stays out of their food chain.)

Christiane said...

Wade's readers may know 'Feeding America' by its old name:

The Second Harvest

Christiane said...

Regarding FDR,
the drum on the far right is that, in addition to starting the Great Depression, he also started both WWI and WWII.

Joe Blackmon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Steven Stark said...

We will always need a mix of socialism and capitalism. The pendulum will swing this way and that.

The comment that WWII got us out of the depression is true. But how is that different than the New Deal? WWII was a giant government jobs program financed by debt.

The New Deal programs created many structures the country still uses, yet "producing" war is the most spectacular waste of resources one can imagine (even if completely necessary at times).

Christiane said...

WHEN ‘HEALTH CARE ‘, AS WE KNOW IT, WAS BEING FORMED.

‘the less care they give ‘em, the more money they make ‘ Ehrlichman speaking.

‘not bad’ Nixon replies . . . .


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmHTte8jRLk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGKkPEvD2OM

Only the personalities change.

Kevin M. Crowder said...

"So, you know I don't/won't agree with most of what you say. But even though I don't agree with the homemaking classes at SWBTS or PP's cutthroat style of convention politics, I didn't find anything unusual about the Christmastime decor at Pecan Manor, so for once, we were almost on the same page..."

Liam,

I think it takes a lot of character to fundamentally disagree with someone and not bash everything about them. I recently read somewhere Ben Cole's comments and name calling of Mrs. Patterson. It was sad to read the hate he feels toward them.

I understand the sorrow you and many feel about the methods of the CR. My good friend Darrell Treat has enlightened me to a great many things which should make us all pause and weep. But we all know that people from both sides are unrelenting. No one can claim the upper hand. There are a great many things good about both the SBC and the CBF and all the smaller splinter group and state and local groups. We all want to be a part of that group we remember as a child. This is why it is so sad for many to leave, or stay and fight within the SBC. I believe in most of the principles currently being touted by the SBC's present leadership and so I remain. Obviously none of us likes the debacle that is the IMB. Personally I think a wider IMB tent would be better for all, allowing missionaries to serve as the Lord has called them, and to take them out from the control of what Paul calls the "schoolmaster/tutor/guardian/child's nanny"---that is the Greek word paidagogos. (Gal 3:23, 25)

It saddens and irritates me to see some on here that would bash PP and DP for wearing the wrong color socks simply because they dislike the fact that he loves to sport hunt or his wife has a passion for tea time.

So thank you for your comment and the spirit with which you posted it. I still think you are a bleeding heart liberal, but at least you are an intelligent and discerning one. That makes a big difference to me, and makes me happy to call you a brother in Christ.

:)

K


Word Verification--seriously: ihunt


:))

Christiane said...

Imagine two individuals come for judgment on the Last Day:

a 'bleeding-heart liberal'

and

a merciless persecutor of a woman with a sick husband


What guidance have we been given from Holy Scripture about what might happen to these individuals on That Day?

Jeff said...

They both don't have a chance without Jesus.

Jeff said...

Liam's wipe at President Bush was not Christian. The last 8 years were not a waste. I hate to see what would happen if Jimmy Carter or Obama were in charge. History will be kinder to W, then so called Christians.

Tom Kelley said...

Liam Madden said...
(As an aside here, most conservatives continue to argue that the only proper role of the federal government is defense. But that's not what the Constitution states. Along with defense, it states other broad aims, such as to "establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, and to promote the general welfare.").


My reading of the US Constitution is that those broad aims (establish justice, etc.) are the aims of the Constitution itself, not those of the federal government. The Constitution sets forth specific roles and limitations for both federal and state governments, and it is through fulfilling those roles and abiding by those limitations that the Constitution's goals (justice, tranquility, general welfare) are to be achieved. That is, it is not, for example, the role of the federal government to "promote the general welfare" -- it is the role of the Constitution to do so, and it does so by ensuring that the federal government stays within certain strict boundaries, with all other unspecified powers being "reserved to the States ... or to the people."

Tom Kelley said...

Steven Stark said...
The New Deal programs created many structures the country still uses, yet "producing" war is the most spectacular waste of resources one can imagine (even if completely necessary at times).


I doubt those who gave lives and limbs for the freedom of others would appreciate seeing their sacrifice referred to as a waste. As one who lost a brother to war, I prefer not to think of the use of that particular resource (his life) a waste.

Steven Stark said...

Tom Kelley,

I admire anyone who is willing to give their life for a worthy cause, and WWII was a necessary war. My grandfather is a veteran. I apologize if my comment made it sound like I thought people had wasted their lives in fighting this war. I don't think that at all.

I used the term "waste" in an economic context. WWII is often "credited" with the end of the Depression. My point was that the war was a giant government jobs program created with no regard for government debt - we had to win the war at any cost, of course.

In one sense, we were using the world's resources to destroy Europe completely. And this is regarded as a better economic stimulus than the New Deal by some. Why? Perhaps because of the greater level of spending by the government for the war?

One Salient Oversight said...

There is a universal health care system in the UK called the National Health Service (NHS).

This is paid through taxes.

It is a far more comprehensive and expensive scheme than anything experienced in the US.

There are no British Christian leaders who are calling for the end of the NHS and its taxes. They do not consider it equivalent to "theft".

Tom Kelley said...

Steven,
Thanks for the clarification.

Re: WW2; it is true that the end of the Great Depression coincided with the onset of the war. I've always heard that the spending for the war was a primary reason for the depression's end, but I haven't studied it in much detail, so I only know that's what is commonly asserted; I can't say whether or not it may have been due to other reasons.

I do know that economic recovery in the US preceded the involvement of the US in the war. So even if it can be said with certainty that the war ended the depression, here in the US it was as private industry ramped up in support of the countries who were already at war. So the depression in the US didn't end due to US government funding of our military.

(Maybe that means that the key to true economic prosperity is to ensure that other countries are at war. Reminds me of Orwell's 1984...)

Bob Cleveland said...

O.S.O: All my friends in Great Britain purchase their own private health insurance, in light of the deficiencies of the Nationalized System, and its delays, limitations, etc.

Might try checking the tax rates too.

Christiane said...

TRICARE: is it run like the Canadian system or the British system?

Also, found this:
"The high Southern enrollment in government-run TRICARE, where the military pays private doctors in a single-payer system, seems at odds with the vocal opposition of Southern lawmakers to anything smacking of public involvement in health care.

Take South Carolina: The Palmetto State has the 8th-highest TRICARE enrollment in the nation, nearly a quarter-million people. But South Carolina's overall population ranks only 24th nationally -- meaning that the share of South Carolinians using TRICARE's single-payer, government option is one of the largest in the country.

Contrast TRICARE's popularity in South Carolina with these words from Sen. Jim DeMint (R-SC) last week, who has led the Republican party's attempts to torpedo health proposals that involve the government:

"[Democrats] think we're stupid," said DeMint. "They think that you don't know that government does not work well, that the same people who cleaned up after Hurricane Katrina are the ones who can really run our health care system with that personal touch that we all want ... They're talking about a government plan that can do things that no government plan has ever done."

The 233,725 people who chose to use TRICARE in DeMint's home state likely disagree."

Kevin M. Crowder said...

"There are no British Christian leaders who are calling for the end of the NHS and its taxes. They do not consider it equivalent to "theft"."


Um, here is "one sad oversight."

You would have done well to stop your quote here: "There are no British Christian leaders."




k

Tom Kelley said...

One Salient Oversight said...
There are no British Christian leaders who are calling for the end of the NHS and its taxes. They do not consider it equivalent to "theft".


The UK is an explicitly Christian nation, without clear separation of church and state. The US, while founded on Christian ideals, is a nation wherein church and state were explicitly and intentionally intended not to be intertwined.

In a nation in which the government and Christianity are not distinguished from each other, is is no wonder that the citizens would consider it their government's right to force all citizens to give their money for the benefit of others. It is simply the government working to impose the moral dictates of that government's official religion.

But a key factor in the existence of the US was a desire to keep federal government from dictating to citizens the moral codes and practices of a specific religion. Our founders believed that separation of the powers and roles of church and government is necessary to ensure both true freedom of religion and the legitimate functioning of government.

My religion (Christianity) compels me to do certain things (e.g., care for the needs of others). In order to be truly free to do those things which God commands, not under compulsion from any source other than my choice to obey God's Word and His Spirit, I must be given the freedom to choose not to do those things. But if my government steps in and says I must give my money, under threat of arrest for not paying taxes, so that it can do what my God commands me and my church to do, my freedom to exercise my religion has been limited by my government.

I would not expect this concept to be understood by those in countries where church and state are intentionally intertwined, so I would not expect British citizens to object to being taxed to support government health care. But it shouldn't be a surprise that many people in the US would not consider health care a legitimate function of the federal government and thus object to being taxed to pay for it. For the US government to take money from me to do things that aren't part of its legitimate function is indeed "theft".

The thing that saddens me is that more Christians don't object to the myriads of other government programs and policies already in place that infringe upon our fundamental religious freedoms. Historically, the shift toward government intrusion into areas not intended by our country's founders traces back to the Progressives like Teddy Roosevelt, Wilson, and FDR. It's a shame we have gotten so far from our founders' intent.

rick t said...

Darrell. I am also a "professional" bowler. I bowled on the tour back in the 70's and still belong to a strong organization. Bowlers are known for beer bellies and smoking, which i fitted right in. That is, till the Lord got hold of me. It has given me a wonderful opportunity to witness to my friends and let them see personally what the Lord can do in someones life, and i know my new lifestyle has made a difference in many of theirs. My prayer is that the gifts and talents the Lord has given us will be used for His glory.

Steven Stark said...

Tom,

Government coercion is always tough to swallow. I don't like stopping at red lights. One person is upset because her taxes are used to fund the Iraq war. Another is upset because her taxes are used to increase access to health care for the poor. I don't like the idea that more or less government is a principle. More relative to whom? less compared to whom? It's a matter of balance. Competent government should be a matter of principle, I suppose.

As for WWII (how did we get to this subject anyway? out of control memes!), the US debt as a percentage of GDP was way higher then than it is now. Everyone was working, even if it was to produce many items for almost instant destruction (planes, etc.). And sure, some of the early economic stimulus was provided by foreign governments too. It's just super interesting that massive public debt (foreign and domestic) sparked recovery. Could it have worked if it was not for war? Could it work for a worldwide green initiative or to feed and educate every 3rd world country? Interesting thoughts. I don't know.

Joe Blackmon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Tom Parker said...

Joe B:

Why must you say such things as "Obamassiah" I hope you know how offensive that term is. Are you a birther?

Pege` said...

Wade, I hope you have a great game of golf when the weather clears up.
The Pope seems to be doing alright in Vatican city. I am sure he eats well too. He may be able to cut back a little to send some funds to feed the people struggling under this Father's care. To those of you who critisize my friend Wade or EBChurch, it is the most generous church I have ever had the priveledge to be a member of and have been helped in time of need by them. What church can you name, when the collection is taken after service,Wade states that if you have a need feel free to take from the plate and if there is not enough in it,please the pastor so we may help you?? I must tell you there are many here who do not know what you are talking about. it says in proverbs that even a fool when he keeps his mouth shut is considered wise.Some of you need to follow the advice.

Joe Blackmon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kevin M. Crowder said...

"Therefore, if the term "Obamassiah" is offensive to christian supporters of Obama, it was intended to be. If, however, they decide to repent of their support of a baby murderer and stand with Christians they would be welcomed."

Amen!

Tom Parker said...

Joe B and KMC:

You're being in agreement about such an offensive comment suprises me not.

Look Joe B at what Kevin had to say earlier:

"I honestly believe Obamination WANTS to be shot. According to his beliefs he will get 70 some odd virgins to play with for eternity."

Do you agree Joe B. with what Kevin had to say above?

Chris Ryan said...

Steven,

Hear, hear. We all pay taxes for things that we don't necessarily like. I wish that there was a way for me to not pay the proportion of taxes that go into the military budget (at least as long as we are funding the current war efforts). But will I ever get that? No.

Do I like the idea of paying taxes for other people's medicine and healthcare? No. Not a bit. But I would rather pay for that than for the military to protect national interests and make it sound morally imperitive by calling it "punishing the wicked and immoral axis of evil." At least this way people are saved from death, not ushered into it prematurely.

Chris Ryan said...

Joe,

And George Bush is guilty of supporting grown-up murder. What's your point? Unless you are honestly so naive as to think that every person killed in the current wars were armed combatents. So should we say that (to borrow your phrasing)

"Christians recognize that he is a supporter or grown-up murder. Therefore, nothing he does or says is worthy of support. In contrast, christians who support him believe that he can do no wrong because of his rightest social policies....If, however, they decide to repent of their support of a grown-up murderer and stand with Christians they would be welcomed."

Or does life somehow become less valuable to you once it is outside of the womb?

Kevin M. Crowder said...

Chris Ryan,

There is no such hting as a prematur death. Life and death and all the juicy middle happens exactly according to the will and purposeof our God and Father in Heaven. War is part of life. Wars serve several purposes, not the least of which is to restrain sin. Nothing wrong of course with being prudent however.

K

Lydia said...

the drum on the far right is that, in addition to starting the Great Depression, he also started both WWI and WWII.

Sun Dec 27, 02:58:00 PM 2009

Christiane, can you provide a source for that? I certainly do not think that for one moment. I think he was willing but it was not popular with the America First crowd.

I think he was very naive about Stalin, though.

I find it interesting you cannot judge the pastor of this story but are quite wlling to judge the right wing. :o)

Christiane said...

Hi LYDIA,

Google in 'FDR caused the Stock Market Crash'
and enjoy.
It just gets better and better. :)

Joe Blackmon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Darby Livingston said...

"There is no such hting as a prematur death."

C.S. Lewis dealt with this in Why I'm Not a Pacifist in The Weight of Glory.

Lydia said...

Google in 'FDR caused the Stock Market Crash'
and enjoy.
It just gets better and better. :)

Mon Dec 28, 05:04:00 AM 2009

No, Christiane, That is not what you said. You said the right wing accuses FDR of STARTING WW2. Since I have NEVER heard that put forth as sort of theory for the rise of Hitler, I found that comment extremely strange.

Now, if you want to give me some references of historical research, that is fine. But I am not interested in reading any conspiracy theory stuff.

Joe Blackmon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Lydia said...

Joe, what is interesting is that FDR promised us much of what Hitler promised his own people
people. The methods to obtain them were different, of course.

The glorious government will take care of you. And we all know how fair governments and just governments are. Like internment camps for Japanese Americans. And refusing Jews who escaped Hitler entrance to the US during the war.

It seems Chris would be offended to pay taxes to help stop Hitler. It would be more 'Christian' to look the other way as Hitler enslavedEastern Europe.

Joe Blackmon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Christiane said...

Hi JOE BLACKMON,

Merry Christmas.

I offer this observation regarding your comment " The liberal/moderate** mantra currently sounds something like "America is evil."

What mainstream Americans are hearing now is more like this comment from STEVE:

'The institutionalized theft of buying votes with money forced from taxpayers at virtual gunpoint is so much an everyday thing in Washington D.C. that it would appear we are ripe for either insurrection or a string of secessions beginning in the West. '

Truthfully, talk of secession and insurrection is not usually done by those who are going to war to defend their country. I just learned that my niece Lindsay, the Navy trauma nurse, will be heading to Afghanistan within the next year along with the big troop increase.

I don't know what 'hatred' main-stream Americans feel towards their country, but I don't see it in my family or my friends. I see gratefulness for the service of the young who unselfishly put themselves into harms way for us.
They seek no 'secession', or 'insurrection'. They love their country, enough to die for it, not destroy its unity.

Just a thought. BTW, what did you get for Christmas?
My brother, the doctor, gave his wife a chain-saw. She had asked for it because they own a farm near Charlottesville, VA and she is clearing a lot of brush on it.

My brother says: 'I guess you're a red-neck if you give your wife a chain-saw for a Christmas present'.
Thank God for humor. So refreshing.

Love you dearly,
L's

Joe Blackmon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Christiane said...

Hi JOE,

I got Godiva chocolates (very sinful, as am on a diet), and the usual abundance of Barnes and Noble's gift cards.

The FAMILY plays this game: they know Mama is too cheap to spend money on books and music from Barnes and Noble Book Store.
They know that Mama LOVES to go to Barnes and Noble's, to look longingly at the abundance.

Sooooo, at Christmas, on anniversary, and birthday, comes to Mama so many gift cards that Mama can indulge her love of books WITHOUT ANY GUILT !!!!!
That is how the game is played. :)
I always win. I love my family.
They save me from my own cheapness.
I got enough gift cards on Friday to last for at least a year.
I was thrilled. :)

I gave my husband socks (Gold-toe sox bought on sale. Cheap.)

He loves me anyway, 'cause I let him turn an upstairs guest room into a man-cave with huge TV screen and all the trimmings, for his birthday. He was thrilled. :)

Life is good. Glad you had a good holiday. God Bless,
Love, L's

Darby Livingston said...

"He loves me anyway, 'cause I let him turn an upstairs guest room into a man-cave with huge TV screen and all the trimmings, for his birthday. He was thrilled. :)"

That is hilarious. Are there trap doors in the front yard that detect testosterone and shoot one up to the room automatically?

Christiane said...

Hi DARBY,

That is a GREAT idea.
Thank you !!!
Love, L's

P.S. How was your Christmas?

Chris Ryan said...

Lydia,

You said I would be rather not pay taxes to stop Hitler, etc.

Let's take an honest look at WWII, shall we. I'm guessing you are not a warmongerer, and thus fall more along the lines of some sort of just war theory. If I'm wrong, and any war any country thinks it should fight is just fine in your opinion, then say so and ignore the rest of this comment.

If, however, you adhere to some sort of just war theory as do most Christians: was WWII a just war? I cannot doubt that in *retrospect* good and noble ends were accomplished. But the American people were very content to let Hitler enslave Europe... until our chief trading partner of England was in desperate straights. Then we started supplying troops and (limited, mostly volunteer) manpower. Why did we enter the war? Not because Hitler was a psycho, but because Japan attacked us because we were desperately hurting their economy with some of our trading decisions. We didn't enter because of what the Japanese had been doing to the Chinese.

There was nothing humanitarian about our entering the war *except* within the political rhetoric. But the Jews?! But most Americans were completely unaware of the holocaust. While the ghetto-izing (should such a word exist) was public knowledge, what happened after that was not clearly exposed to the world public until the Allies began their march through (formerly) occupied Europe. And they weren't expressly outraged by putting the Jews in ghettos. Anti-semitism was a part of the moral compass of Europe and America during that time. And few were the objectors when America placed the Japanese in their own ghettos. That wasn't morally offensive to enough people for that to be a real cause of the US going to war.

We can look back and see good things that happened. But the war was made justifiable, not fought for just purposes. Like nearly all wars, it was a matter of economics. National interests. Not self-lessness.

Unless you believe the rhetoric over the facts. Which isn't the typical you.


Kevin,
Okay. Then stop with the anti-abortion stuff. Because God intended those babies to die exactly when they did, too. Can't go that far? Shocker.

Joe Blackmon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Lydia said...

Chris, I agree with MOST of your analysis of WW2. Except that surprisingly, J Edgar Hoover was outraged by the internment of Japanese citizens because the FBI was investigating the claims and could find no evidence.

" And they weren't expressly outraged by putting the Jews in ghettos"

Who wasn't outraged? And who understood outside of Europe what was going on?For the 1936 Olympics all the Juden Verboten signs were taken down and a big show was put on for the guests. And the American Journalists were censored for every single word and broadcast and were not allowed anywhere near the camps or ghettos.

Read William Shirer's personal account and his "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich"

There were some Americans who were supportive of Hilter such as Joe Kennedy and Henry Ford. Oh and of course, Lindbergh

In same way, the civil war was not fought to free the slaves. it was fought to keep the Union together. But the outcome was a good thing.

I was referring to your comment about not wanting to pay taxes to keep a military. Now that we know about the little Hitlers who murdered 3000 Americans and the many more who want to murder us, you resent paying taxes for our protection. I am thinking you might change your mind when you are responsible for children. At least I hope so.

Lydia said...

"I'm guessing you are not a warmongerer, and thus fall more along the lines of some sort of just war theory. If I'm wrong, and any war any country thinks it should fight is just fine in your opinion, then say so and ignore the rest of this comment"

BTW: Chris, the above is not worthy of you. And it makes little sense if you really think about it.


Why would I think it fine for Saddam to invade Kuwait? Why would I think it fine for the Soviets to invade Afghanistan? The Chech's?

Who have we 'invaded' with intent to gain more land and rule the people? I would be interested to know.

Chris Ryan said...

Joe,

Notice that in my origninal comment to you, I specifically took note of those who were NOT armed combatants. Thank you for stealing your own oxygen.

Furthermore, if I am only to vote for the anti-Abortion and anti-homosexual candidates because the Bible is against both (and it is), then what about the abuse and misuse of creation or the exploitation of the poor since the Bible is against both of those (and it is). But how rare is a candidate that would be for all four of those?! Extremely!

So is the solution to not vote? Or is it to vote only on the basis of those that you, Joe, say are more important? Thus making *you* the final say, not the Bible? But you want to be the final say on a great many things, don't you, Joe...

Chris Ryan said...

Lydia,

In regards to your last post, I really did mean that I didn't think you would fall into that position. I wasn't trying to demonize you by branding you as such. But as to your question:

Spanish-American war.

In regards to the prior post: I would pay taxes gladly for the protection of those who feel the government needs to protect them and will not trust solely in the providence of God. However, I am not fond of paying for that defense budget to fund wars for the protection of national interests rather than defense of the people. Of which this is the former, imo. Our targets would have been slightly different if this were truly to defend America against terrorists. Afghanistan may still be on the list, but Saudia Arabia would have been attacked before Iraq.

Joe Blackmon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Lydia said...

" I would pay taxes gladly for the protection of those who feel the government needs to protect them and will not trust solely in the providence of God. "

If you wear a seat belt, you then you must not trust in the Providence of God. We wear seat belts as protection against the folks who will run red lights and/or drive drunk.

Why lock your home? Why not trust soley in the Providence of God?

And that also begs the question about health care. Why be for universal health care when you can trust soley in the Providence of God?

"Spanish American War"

Hmm. The treaty of Paris ceded Independance to Cuba from Spain. I understand why you might think of our business in the Phil as invasion and occupation. It is a stretch but I can see it from your perspective.

Chris Ryan said...

Joe,
No. You are terrible at translations. Please stop trying that and try to simply read what the other person said. I'm not one to parse words, especially with you.

Furthermore, I expect to make no headway with you in seeing that the deaths of many noncombatants could have been avoided by US policies and procedures as well. Sure, it all could have been avoided if the other countries had rolled over. But there has been much since that time which we could have done differently. But rather than share blame, your unequivically pro-Americana mindset will only allow for the first cause to recieve blame. No sharing allowed. America could never do wrong because it is God's chosen country for blessing the world. I have seen the light! Praise be Jesus! Or is that George Washington? Or is it one of the deist political philosophers Washington relied on? We are in the business of first cause, aren't we?

PS. Don't bother answering any of that. Your world is too black and white for this conversation.


Lydia,
I will grant you that the use of seatbelts and locks probably reveal that one isn't entirely trusting in God. The difference, and a significant one, between relying on the military and relying on your seatbelt is that using your seatbelt doesn't cause other people to be killed. Nor do your locks. Unless you want to create some highly unlikely scenario that strains credulity.

As for healthcare, I have repeated many times that I don't like it, and definately not this bill. But I'd rather take what we are spending on Iraq, Afghanistan, and Gitmo and pay for people to have access to health care. If I could choose. As is, it looks like you and I will be paying for both.

And I was thinking primarily of the Phil.

Kevin M. Crowder said...

To all,


I have been informed that a slang term I closed with in a post of this time and date:

Sat Dec 26, 10:37:00 AM 2009

is attributed to the rapper Snoop-dog and has a rather scatological meaning. For that I am sorry and while I do not talk like that, was simply trying to close in a light hearted way. Obviously I failed and apologize. Now that I kow its origin and meaning I shall never in any way use it again.

K

Liam Madden said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Liam Madden said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Liam Madden said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Liam Madden said...

Jeff,

Merry Christmas to you! I'm not sure what you meant in your post. I didn't make any swipe against President Bush (you said "wipe" but I think you meant "swipe"). In any case, please try to check that sinful urge to pile on and say something rude and untrue about me just because others are already doing the same. I seem to recall that in a previous comment stream, after I made a second defense of the work of the Holy Spirit through my church's pastor, Dr. Julie Pennington-Russell, that you exited the comment stream and made no additional reply. Try to show a little more courage and a little more manners, man. I have a cousin who could never out-wrestle me in a fair fight, so he would wait until three or four of my other cousins had wrestled me to the ground and then run in an give me a little cowardly kick. I hate to say it, but your actions here remind me of him a little bit.

:)

Joe Blackmon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kevin M. Crowder said...

Now Liam, our war tactics would be called into question if we did not keep a last man fresh to kick the last man standing.

:)

Lydia said...

"The difference, and a significant one, between relying on the military and relying on your seatbelt is that using your seatbelt doesn't cause other people to be killed. Nor do your locks. Unless you want to create some highly unlikely scenario that strains credulity. "

Read military history. You could not be more wrong in your thinking. In just ONE exmaple, had France attacked and not run, Hitler would have been stopped and millions would have been saved. Instead the war went on for years and millions died. The same thing happened in the civil war because McClellan would not fight. Because of that, many more died than needed to and the war lasted longer.

And, having a ready defense does save lives in many venues because it can deter attack. But then, people like Hitler do not learn from history and invade Russia anyway.

Remember, Osama bin Laden said he thought we were cowards and would not be able to fight back. Keep in mind this was after 8 years of Clinton where there was a lot of hatred of the military.


As long as there is evil, there will be wars. Chamberlain thought he had negotiated peace with one of the biggest terrorist of all time. It never occured to him he was talking to a liar. It is interesting to note that Chamberlain was a universalist and thought man is basically good.

So, we need those defense seat belts. :o) They save lives in the long run when used against evil.

Liam Madden said...

Kevin,

Good morning. I was on the road coming back from a holiday trip to VA. Enjoyed your earlier post and appreciated your gracious words. I'll take a fair foe with convictions over a half-hearted friend any day :) Trust that you won't be the "last man" that you described in your post. Best wishes to you and yours for a happy new year.

Chris Ryan said...

Lydia,

I will grant that from your perspective that logic flows. If the church and its constituants are not prophetic witnesses to a different way of doing things and are meant to employ the ways of the world via the establishments of the world to accomplish our ends, then surely war is a necessity. But if Christ defeated evil by submitting to it, and we are followers of Him, I think that the Christian witness you suggest is still basically misguided, even if defendable by a certain form of hermeneutics.

But I did think of a war that requires, I think, a little less of a stretch to establish imperial aims for Americana: the Indian Wars.

Rex Ray said...

Chris Ryan,
I’ve always respected your views in knowing what the Bible means. That’s why I’m at a loss at your words:

“But if Christ defeated evil by submitting to it, and we are followers of Him, I think that the Christian witness you suggest is still basically misguided, even if defendable by a certain form of hermeneutics.”

Since Jesus submitted to the will of his Father, your statement would mean God is evil.

Would you please explain.?

Chris Ryan said...

Rex,

It's the Christus Victor concept of the cross.

Evil did it's worst. Christ overcame it. Not with violence, not with opposition. He let it do its worst. Submitted to all it had to offer. And overcame it.

Evil was defeated. Forever conquered.

Lydia said...

But I did think of a war that requires, I think, a little less of a stretch to establish imperial aims for Americana: the Indian Wars.

Tue Dec 29, 05:23:00 PM 2009

Totally agree. Our strategies for dealing with a nomadic people were ridiculous on hindsight. And it is very hard to settle a country with nomadic people who make claims on lands but do not stay on them.

Our decisions have horrible consequences even today! The alchoholism and drug use on reservations that have every tax free advantage for business and commerce is astounding. Not to mention the gaming rights, etc.

There are even laws that prevent the adoption of neglected Indian children because they are to be raised in Indian families only. So, the cycle only continues.

Rex Ray said...

Chris,
I hear what you’re saying, but the Christus Victor concept is not a true concept in my opinion, because the pain etc. of the Cross was just a drop in the bucket that Jesus endured from his Father.

Do you think Jesus sweat drops of blood over going to the Cross? If he did, he would be a sissy compared to many that embraced the stake where they would be burned alive. Even Peter asked to be upside down on a cross which is more painful.

The drops of blood were caused by Jesus knowing the pain of hell which he would suffer for three days. Every breath would be a scream.

Hell did not come from evil, but from God.

We can not fathom the love that God has for man as shown what he did to his Son. “I will smite the Shepard…” (Mark 14:27) and (John 3:16)

Chris Ryan said...

Lydia,

We agree on something!!!


Rex,

And did not Christ also endure the trials of Hell without complaint? Christus Victor certainly tends to be expressed in terms of the cross but is capable of including the entire passion experience, including a descent into Hell. Propitation theories do not stand in opposition to CV, but I tend to think they complement each other quite well.

Christiane said...

Hi REX RAY,

My Church sees Christ's descent into 'Sheol' or 'Hades' differently than you see it.

Here is an ancient prayer from our liturgy for Holy Saturday, which marks the day after the crucifixion. This prayer is almost two thousand years old and is shared with the Orthodox who also have prayed it since time immemorial:

"Today a great silence reigns on earth, a great silence and a great stillness. A great silence because the King is asleep. The earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. . . He has gone to search for Adam, our first father, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him - He who is both their God and the son of Eve. . . "I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. . . I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead."

We believe that Christ entered Hades as a Savior.

Love, L's

believer333 said...

I like that Christiane. Do you have a link that has it published. I'd like to take that to my Bible Study class.

Christiane said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Christiane said...

Hi BELIEVER 333

Yes. You can find it at:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p122a5p1.htm
Scroll down to # 635 to find the prayer.
The site is from my Church's catechism,
If you are interested, for the Bible study, there are some verses referenced at the bottom of the page to do with Christ's descent into Hades.

Happy New Year,
L's

P.S. I rather like that prayer myself. :)

Steven Stark said...

Christiane,

Are you familiar with the work of John Dominic Crossan on The Gospel of Peter? He believes that this later gospel used as a source an older work which included an account of the harrowing of hell.

interesting stuff!

Christiane said...

Dear BELIEVER 333

Here is another site from the Orthodox that gives the patristic history of that ancient prayer:

http://fastingforlent.blogspot.com/2009/04/there-is-great-silence-on-earth-today.html

Christiane said...

Hi STEVEN,

No, I am not familiar with the writings of this gentleman, but I am very familiar with the doctrine of 'the Harrowing of Hell' and with the Scriptures 'arise O sleeper . . .'
as well as the belief that the righteous dead rested in the bosom of Abraham until Christ came for them.

Thank you for the reference. I will follow up on it.
Happy New Year,
Love, L's

Lydia said...

"We agree on something!!!"


Indian war. Who woulda thunk it?

Chris Ryan said...

Lydia,

Who would of ever thunk we could get there from the post origin, either?!

Liam Madden said...

Well, as far as Obama's successes go, all I said was:

1) Put pressure on both Palestinians and Israelis to get them to the bargaining table; thus far, suicide bombings are down as both sides work within a critical window to get back in step with the peace process.

2) Successfully negotiated release of U.S. hostages from Korea. (without use of force).

3) Successfully authorized use of force to rescue an American ship's captain from pirates.

4) re-set American relations with the Muslim world. Continues to fight extremists (many al-Qaeda killed; much new pressure on Pakistan to get results) while also reaching out to moderate Muslims to partner in the fight against terrorism. This is the smart approach. It will simply not be possible to kill every Muslim to win the war on terrorism. If a win comes, it will come by partnerships with peace loving Muslims.

5) Successfully bailed out the economy. Yes, I said successfully. The bailouts were enormously expensive, but in the majority of cases there was no real alternative. And he did this without temporarily nationalizing the banking sector (which Sweden did, with better results). Has shown sensitivity to our free market system, and is generally letting financiers work out their own recoveries.

7) Studied the issue and gave Gen. MChrystal most of the troops he requested for a "surge" in Afghanistan.

Items 2,3 & 7 are objective facts and pretty difficult to argue against. The others, while open to interpretation are defensible.

But, I agree, after reviewing your posts, that I overstepped on my comment about FDR and Hitler.

The quote that I saw in your post which I thought was your opinion
was actually a quote from Christiane that got pasted into your post, so I apologize for that.

I hope you don't mean that you truly don't want to interact with me on this blog in the future. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. And I acknowledge my mistake in the case of the above. More like, I am trying to understand why so many Christians today are bent on arguing that their rather severe free market philosophy and Ayn Rand-like vision of society is harmonious with the gospel of Christ.

However, I should state that as much as I've read of Cold War literature, such as Arthur Koestler, Solzhenitsyn and others, I should be more skeptical of different types of big government social engineering than I am. I'm not sure why I'm not. Partially, it's because of still having faith in the American people and our system. The other part is because at heart, I'm still an optimist.

No offense intended. I thought that you liked to debate and didn't want to leave some of your criticisms un-answered. That being said, I considered deleting my post as soon as I put it up, just because I want good fellowship here and don't feel that I have to win these arguments. I think that everyone hear feels that while our words are sometimes important but our unity in the faith and our actions are more so.