"I went to Jerusalem to become acquainted (Gk. istoria) with Cephas" - Paul's words from Galatians 1:18.

Christmas 2009 at Pecan Manor and Southwestern Theological Seminary

This video from Pecan Manor gives you a peek into the Presidential Home of Drs. Paige and Dorothy Patterson for Christmas 2009. It's a very interesting video for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the opportunity to see the incredibly beautiful Christmas trees throughout the Presidential mansion and the tasteful, seasonal decorations throughout the home. While narrating the video, Dorothy Patterson mentions the need for prayer for Southwestern during these days of "national crises" and for the students, trustees, and professors who are having to bear burdens that are not of their own making. I join with the Pattersons in praying for the Lord's blessings at Southwestern Theological Seminary.

However, according to the Christmas edition of the alumni magazine, sent to all SWBTS alumni by the Seminary public relations department, not all the news coming out of SWBTS is cause for concern. One of the reasons for "celebration" is the growth of The Horner Homemaking House. Students enrolled in the "homemaking" degree program at SWBTS were housed for the first time in Horner this fall. I quote from the alumni magazine the reasons given for celebrating what God is doing at SWBTS:

"What excitement is found in the Meal Preparation classes working out of a pristine culinary center! (What excitement is found) in the Clothing Construction classes taught in a large room with sewing machines for every student and all other necessary accoutrements for learning this important craft! Bountiful "showers" are being hosted to help us add needed equipment and resources.

Without a doubt, the training needed to host parties at Christmas time, parties similar to those being hosted at Pecan Manor in 2009, is second to none at SWBTS. The Horner Homemaking House sure seems to make happy those housewives headed for homemaking. One trusts Southern Baptists in seminary are being as well prepared to help those headed to hell. One also can't help but wonder what Benajah Harvey Carroll, L. R. Scarborough, E. D. Head and Robert E. Naylor might be thinking about these days.

In His Grace,


Wade

332 comments:

1 – 200 of 332   Newer›   Newest»
Darby Livingston said...

Thanks a lot Wade, I threw up a little bit in my mouth.

to-obey-is-better said...

It's great to know that as we prepare to go back overseas; in a 3rd world area, live without ready made foods, without guarantee of hot water and electricity being on 24/7, that there will be some women learning to cook, decorate and sew......and at a seminary, no less.

imb lady

ATS Faculty said...

Why don't SBC leaders make known their displeasure with this kind of thing? Shortfalls for mission funding, lower CP receipts, declining membership/baptisms in churches, declining enrollment in seminaries, but very few have the courage to question decisions to start a homemaking degree at SWBTS.

God help us all.

Steve said...

A very "Old Texan" look to the video. Perfectly exemplary of a denomination with enough money to send, say, 600 more missionaries out to save the lost than it is sending this year! Halleluah!

oops

Kevin M. Crowder said...

In all fairness, both have Ph.D's and long service records to their denomination. They ought to be allowed to live their life how they feel the Lord leading them, and there are no shortage of philanthropic stories coming out of these two Southern Baptists. I watched the X-mas video last year from Pecan Manor. My first thought was the same as Wade's--i might have even mentioned it on here. But i have given this some deep thought. It is not a sin to be well off, clean, a collector of fine things, and enjoy a style and comfort of living which seems foreign to others. The Pattersons are of an older generation of builders (or close to) who in all likeliness have paid their dues and deserve to have a few creature comforts. Additionally, no one can doubt the fundraising and institutional development that goes on at Pecan Manor. If I were its resident, I would have all you gentleman into my library for brandy and fine cigars while our wives talked of needlepoint, exchanged recipies, and looked at the trees and ornaments from around the world--the many places form which Southwesterners serve--'tis still true today: "The Sun Never Sets on a Southwesterner."

Rex Ray said...

WHERE’S GENE WHEN WE NEED HIM?

Bill said...

I am very disappointed that they did not mention the new tatting class which will begin in the summer.

Seriously, somehow I am not surprised.

The BP article on 23/34 mentioned that Paige "prayed over and dedicated" the Lottie Moon articles from China.

Our denomination has become a group of pagans


Bill

Romans 6:23

John Daly said...

Maybe we can send this video to all the Believers languishing in prisons, marked with Jesus' scars?

Kevin: glad to see you gave this some "deep thought," sometimes our first thought tends to be the right one.

Kevin M. Crowder said...

John,

I tend to add grace and reason the more I ponder and study things. I know most of you all on here have an annointing from the Holy Spirit which gives your clarity on the first round. I on the other hand am called to study to show myself approved.

K

Kevin M. Crowder said...

Oh and John,

"Believers languishing in prison"???

"marked with Jesus' scars"???

What on earth do you mean by that? Are you suggesting we let the Christian prisoners free? Or that the SBC is the cause of their pain? That just makes no sense.
The video actually might give them some hope. SBC Churches have great prison ministries and it is not tons of money they need. They need people willing to go and share the Gospel and befriend these folks. So I submit the video has no bearing on prison ministries. But of course I am open to being enlightened if you care to explain. Remember I lack the annointing of you and others.

Former FBC Insider said...

I'm with Darby,
puking in Florida...

Ron said...

Kevin,
How much of their travels around the world were paid for by CP funds or by other funds raised by others? How much of their travels and those of their friends were approved and authorized by Paige Patterson before being financed by churches such as mine who support the cooperative program.

Wade Burleson said...

Kevin,

They ought to be allowed to live their life how they feel the Lord leading them ...

I don't disagree, Kevin, with the principle you state above.

However, one of the questions we must ask ourselves is "Does the lifestyle reflected in the video, and the reason given alumni for celebrating what is happening at SWBTS (Horner Homemaking House) reflect the wishes of SB's regarding how our Cooperative Program monies are to be spent?

If it does reflect the wishes of the majority of the SBC, then some of us are out of step with the majority and should evaluate our continued cooperation. If it does not, then accountability should be brought to bear toward those who operate and administrate SWBTS.

In the end, information about SWBTS and questions asked as a result of that information are all healthy.

I commend you for your grace and reason while you reflect on Pecan Manor. My hope for you is that the same grace and reason is extended to those who disagree with you in areas of tertiery theology, including your love for Presbyterian Covenant theology.

In His Grace (and reason),

Wade

Rex Ray said...

What’s missing in the video?

Where are trophies of the big game hunter?

Surely over the fireplace, but oops, the camera didn’t get that high.

Did the dead animals not fit in?

Wonder if they got stored behind the ‘demonized’ or something pulpit caused by a woman preaching at the school assembly?

I’m sure the high class cooking classes will educate people boiling a rat to stay alive.

But hey! They’re desperate to get enrollment up to keep egg off the president’s face, but it’s still smeared from ear to ear.

Yep. King Ahab has Dilday’s vineyard, but the Christmas trees aren’t producing fruit.

Kevin M. Crowder said...

Wade,

Covenant Theology is not Presbyterian. The Bible is free and open to all men to correctly interpret. I would simply ask you this: While I have in the past and in the present exhibited tones less than graceful to those who disagree with me, please be more specific as to my ungraceful tone regarding Covenant Theology. (My "thread cutting at the cross comment was not exclusive to non-CT'ers).

As to lifestyles Wade, this is all relative. Have you ever seen the movie The Wicker Man? (old or new). Your argument could have easily been cast as the strawman in either of those movies. :)

Relative my good gospel friend, relative. As relative as 300+ a month to keep you puttin'.

Press Patterson on the Gilyard case and I am right beside you. But stay out of Dorothy's bedroom and parlour. :)


Kevin

Kevin M. Crowder said...

"Kevin,
How much of their travels around the world were paid for by CP funds or by other funds raised by others?"

Ron,

I would be happy to call SWBTS and ask (as to CP funds that is). But before I do, would you please tell me who in the US is your favorite Seminary President currently serving? (Any Seminary, and denomination)

Darby Livingston said...

Bryan Chapell, of course. :)

Wade Burleson said...

Kevin,

You wrote this comment for the last post defending Covenant Theology:

Finally, only a fool cuts the thread of redemptive history at the cross.

I am not sure of the meaning of Jesus when He said, "But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell" (Matthew 5:22), but the words themselves should give us pause, I think, before we call anyone who disagrees with us a fool.

I also do agree that lifestyle is all relative. That's why I affirm the principle how people live is their own business.

But when a lifestyle is lived on the dollars of Cooperative Program funding, then tough questions SHOULD be asked.

Blessings,

Wade

Joe Blackmon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kevin M. Crowder said...

Darby,

Bryan Chapell donated all the royalties to all his books to the Seminaries Endowment. The seminary provides him a house, but it is 40 years old and needs alot of work which the seminary simply cannot afford. But he makes due. He is a man of grace the like of which I have not seen before.

I just thought you should know that.

Kevin M. Crowder said...

Wade,

I stand by my statement. A fool is a fool is a fool. I think Jesus had something different in mind. I mean a noun "fool" as in someone who is "foolish" (theologically speaking).

Finally PM is more than the President's home, it is a symbol of the Seminary's pride and history. The Patterson's do a marvelous job of maintaining that heritage.

Even though I do think their Arminian theology is "foolish."

My new thing is getting into hunting. I want to kill a moose and mount that puppy! Dr. P has been a great role model for many young men in the area of masculinity and manhood.

Let them life their life. Let the trustees guide PM, the museum.


But please do ask questions. There are many question which need to be asked of the Patterson's and all of our seminaries. Finish what Ben Cole began! Btw, what is up to these days? Is he even trying to expose those dems in devils' clothing on the hill???

Darby Livingston said...

Kevin,

Thanks for that info. I didn't know that, but I think it's a wonderful example. I love Christ-Centered Preaching. More than that, I love that his second edition of that book humbly and honestly dealt with areas in the first edition that were not as helpful as they could have been. He confessed and clarified his thoughts about those things in the Introduction. When I named him, I wasn't joking about him being the one I most admire. Very humble man.

Lydia said...

" But i have given this some deep thought. It is not a sin to be well off, clean, a collector of fine things, and enjoy a style and comfort of living which seems foreign to others."

The style of living is not so foreign. What you are actually saying is that if one 'wins' one should expect creature comforts paid for by giving to the CP.


If Patterson made his living say with...used car lots or a chain of hunting stores...no one should utter a word. But his style of living comes from the labors of those who think they are giving to missionaries and educating future pastors. Not to pastry chefs at Pecan Manor.

What you described above is part of what I call a "Darwinian Christianity". You think they deserve it because they were fit enough to get themselves where they are at the expense of others.

Looking to the future, Kev?

believer333 said...

"Dr. P has been a great role model for many young men in the area of masculinity and manhood. "

Depends on what you consider necessary for masculinity and manhood. If you consider it good for a man to treat women as slaves to their husbands and acceptable for women to endure beatings just in case their husband might repent (never mind the welfare of the woman)...... For many similar reasons, I consider Dr. P to be one of the worst examples of manhood in our era.

Personally, I don't consider trophy hunting a sign of manhood. But fresh meat is a good thing to provide for your family. Hunting is not something limited to men, although few women enjoy it. Deers are becoming more scarce. I say pick another animal to eat and let the deers increase in number.

Joe Blackmon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Alyce said...

I'm reminded of a video/sermon by John Piper on the 'prosperity gospel'. He speaks of exporting this idea that living in this kind of prosperity is to be expected when you come to Christ. My son has been in Peru for a year and I know he struggles with people coming there saying the same.
Then I remember that our Lord had no place to lay his head and he tells us to give, selflessly. The Lord was saddened when the rich young ruler loved his life and riches more than the kingdom. We are told to seek the kingdom of God first.
Have we missed it, is our primary focus teaching our children to accumulate stuff, things, money and heap it on themselves?
The widow gave it all, are His expectations less for us?
God give us a heart capable of giving it all away and one that stores in the kingdom to come.
Merry Christmas

Tom Parker said...

Joe B:
You said--"It's stuff like the from Patterson that gives comps a bad name. I appreciate what he and others did in the CR (even though they didn't go NEARLY far enough--it took how many years to boot Broadway out?) but now I really wish he would just go off into the sunset, do a little fishing, play with his grandkids, and for the love of Pete stay away from anything resembling a device that could be used for mass communication."

Since several are puking this morning when you say you appreciate the CR and what PP did for the SBC I must puke.

The CR destroyed a great denomination IMO.

PP is the poster boy of what the SBC leaders should not be.

Kevin M. Crowder said...

"Deers are becoming more scarce. I say pick another animal to eat and let the deers increase in number."

Are you kidding???????????????


Every state in the union has an over-poulation of deer. And that is for at least 3 reasons:

1. Fathers no longer teach their sons (and daughters) to hunt. (mine tried but in such a way as to turn me off from it for years)

2. The cost

3. Government Regulations.

My Pastor and his 2 sons annually kill upwards of a dozen deer a year, providing meat for them and needy families.

But I still want a moose head on my wall. :)

Kevin M. Crowder said...

"Now, when they start allowing people to hunt cows I'll take up hunting."

Wanna go cow tippin'? lol

Rex Ray said...

Moose for meat was my game. A tip for hunters; using an inter tube to keep your rifle dry and swimming down river didn’t work for me, but the wetsuit allowed me to retrieve another hunter’s moose from the middle of a lake in Alaska.

I was given half (400 pounds). That was easy, but dissecting underwater to get him up an 8 foot bank, and a mile to the road was the hard part.

Kevin, I wish you’d been there to carry those antlers.

Christiane said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Christiane said...

This season Wade has shown us two videos with Christmas trees in them. Both videos reveal evangelical values.



This video gives me hope:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khtBvQdxta4

The video showing Pecan Manor fills me with a sadness that I cannot explain.

Who are we as a Christian people?
What are we doing ?

CARITAS CHRISTI

Lydia said...

"Bryan Chapell donated all the royalties to all his books to the Seminaries Endowment."

This is awesome. Should be done at SBTS by Mohler, Ware, Moore and others. Speaking gig honorariums should also be paid to the seminary only for all SBC seminaries and the celebrities therein.

believer333 said...

"Every state in the union has an over-poulation of deer. And that is for at least 3 reasons:"


Keven, My mistake. I was thinking of where I live. Here in Hawaii there are barely any deer left. Once a year a very small number of hunters are given a pass for one deer. I'm not sure if we even have enough to do that now. Maybe you guys with an overpopulation should send some our way. We have hunters, just not enough deer.

But then we hunt wild boars and have fantastic luau's. Pig wrapped in banana leaves stuffed with red hot lava rocks, come out falling off the bones done! Much much better than that red ham meat in the markets. :)

believer333 said...

"I was given half (400 pounds). That was easy, but dissecting underwater to get him up an 8 foot bank, and a mile to the road was the hard part. "

Dissecting a moose under water. hehe LOL Too Much!! Now THAT is one thing I love about men. You guys just ooze strength and guts at times. :) Very fun for us women to admire.

And I know moose meat is good. I just hope some of you learn to thank that moose for giving up his life for us hungry humans (even though unwillingly).

Gary said...

It has been a long time since I actually opened a copy of SW'tern News. It goes from mailbox to recycle without even being opened.

Excess. We've all seen it and have been appalled over the last 18 months with the Wall Street traders who, while everyone else is loosing their shirts, houses, retirements, and lives, they continue to receive bonuses, live in multiple homes, and enjoy lavish lifestyles.

It just seems a bit tawdry to have this video and the plea for mo' money almost in the same breath. Not just the spread, but does anyone in this discussion believe in your heart that Paige and Dorothy put up all those trees, and festooned P.M. with their own four hands? Really?

Makes no difference if the money was donated or CP money, it could have been used elsewhere.


Portly Gentleman: At this festive time of year, Mr. Scrooge, it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the poor and destitute, who suffer greatly at the present time.
Ebenezer: Why? Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?
Portly Gentleman: Many can't go there; and many would rather die.
Ebenezer: If they would rather die, they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population.

Scrooge, 1935


Gary Skaggs
Norman, OK

Joe Blackmon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Alan Paul said...

Nice to see you trying to create wiggle room for the Pattersons Kevin. But don't feel obligated - they'll be the ones giving account for whatever they have done in this life one day - be it good, be it bad. The Lord indeed does not look down upon riches - only the heart of the rich. And we all know what he said about those who have much and their chances of getting into heaven.

Christiane said...

FOURTH CENTURY A.D.

From the litany of St. James, written in the 4th Century,
in honor of the night of vigil
of Dec. 24th
comes this hymn:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqA2O1c-WZg&NR=1

David Simpson said...

Hoo boy, this brings back lots of bad memories.
When I was on staff at a mega church producing TV, I had to make a few of these, just because I was ordered to.
Try being creative within those parameters.
Somebody actually spent a week of their life producing that- a week they'll never get back! :)
(shudder)

CB Scott said...

You just can't let it go, can you Wade?

Oh, well, Merry Christmas anyway.

cb

Kevin M. Crowder said...

"And we all know what he said about those who have much and their chances of getting into heaven."

Alan Paul,

No, I am unaware of what "he" said, regarding chance riches in heaven. I would be happy to respond however if you would enlighten me.


Rex,

I have had for a couple years now a passionate desire to live in Alaska--even b4 Gov. Palin made it popular. Give me a cabin in Soldotna, a 40x40 heated "Man-Shed" and a Jeep and I'll be in heaven. :)

believer333,

Sounds awesome! Hot Banana Pork!

Kevin M. Crowder said...

Lydia,

"This is awesome. Should be done at SBTS by Mohler, Ware, Moore and others. Speaking gig honorariums should also be paid to the seminary only for all SBC seminaries and the celebrities therein."

Don't be so sure SBC profs do not do just that. Eitherway, sounds to me like you are setting of laws of righteousness extant from biblical directives. I would be careful doing that if I were you.

Rick Warren and Dr. Chapell are no more holier than you or I based on an act of obedience.

Of course one might think differently after reading Chapell's book "Holiness by Grace."

A page turner and heart wrencher for sure! The man is a bastion of grace for certain.bonate

Michael Ruffin said...

My comment is that this one belongs in the no comment department.

Lydia said...

"Don't be so sure SBC profs do not do just that. Eitherway, sounds to me like you are setting of laws of righteousness extant from biblical directives. I would be careful doing that if I were you.

"

Kev, you remind me of myself coming home for break after a year of listening to my ivory tower professors.

Seriously, I have NO idea what you are talking about. Are you saying to question is sin? Or to point out hypocrisy in ministry is sinful? Or to make suggestions that our paid employees should follow to be more accountable is sin?

Or is it because I mentioned your idol, Mohler?

That is what is so fun about CT. The big cheeses get to make all the rules and interpret scripture for the rest of us. But it is sin for us to point out any folly on their part. (This will be a great set up for you in ministry, Kev, but a great big sin trap, I'm afraid)

I would think the season would give you pause on extolling the virtues of living high off ministry dollars. Our Savior was born in a dump. Literally. He had no where to lay His head. Barnabas sold his estate to help his brothers and sisters in Christ. I am trying to figure out where your biblical model is for living the high life off offerings?

Wade Burleson said...

CB, my favorite song is "No, No, He Never Lets Go!"

Laughing.

CB if you like our seminarys having "showers" to raise funds for Cooking Classes, Sewing Classes, etc..., then more power to you. As for me, I will not let that kind direction continue without drawing attention to it.

Merry Christmas!

Wade

Tim Marsh said...

Did anyone see the Stepford Wives the other night?

SWBTS seems to bring science fiction to life!

Lydia said...

Do these "classes" for cooking and sewing have academic credit? And how much are they? Do they get student loans for these type of classes?

Can't they watch Martha Stewart like everyone else or is there a special Christian way to make a dress or cook a meal?

Louis said...

I am utterly disgusted. For the wife of the president of our largest SBC seminary to show off an opulent lifestyle which is sustained by CP dollars--especially at a time when our missionary force is being reduced for lack of CP funding--is contemptible.

I can hardly wait to show this video to our church's budget committee, in the hope that they will keep it in mind while they are deliberating our level of support of the CP. I think that the looks on their faces when they hear of how the Patterson family dog enjoys being served tea in the Pecan Manor library will be--to say the least--priceless.

Thy Peace said...

I remember when Ronald Reagan was being sworn in 1981, he and Nancy Reagan had a gala ceremony and they spent lot of money. Of course all the money was donated by rich donors. But they faced lot of criticism since the country at that time was in a deep recession and it contrasted quite starkly with Jimmy Carter's austerity at the White House.

Are the Pattersons emulating Reagans to showcase their "home"?

Christiane said...

We could probably guess at the Patterson's motivation all day.
But there may be one possibility that no one has thought about:

is it at all possible that the Patterson's don't know any better?

?

Kevin M. Crowder said...

L's,

I understand the angst of many on here. For some it is jealousy, for others, there is no wiggle room for those who hold a higher social standing than they do, for others it is a true concern for CP dollars. But no one has put this in true perspective in light of the Patterson's salary, and the fact that they did not build PM, nor did they set the precedent for the way in which the building is used---build on it of course, for a purpose, and many purposes. One being the glory of our Lord.

L's, we must get past the physical pettiness in the kingdom. I am ashamed that many on this blog would denigrate the Patterson’s out of sheer sinful jealousy. I am going to guess that the Patterson’s donate more than most on here to benevolent causes. Dr. Dorothy does not even collect a salary for all she does.

Forgive me, but ya'all sound like a bunch of cackling old hens on here.


Enjoy the Spirit with which the video was made. Get a life ya'all!!!!!

And for the record, the Patterson’s will never be "up rung" of the career ladder I climb. Nor Mohler, nor Moore, nor Burleson. Heck, I cannot even get Dr. Moore to post the comments I make on his blog. I call things as I see them. Many of you should know me by now to know I have my own brain. So the condescending replies are uncalled for. I assure you I have plenty to disagree with regarding the Patterson’s and Land’s, and others. I have yet to tote their party line and I sure as heck do not tote ya'alls. :)


Merry X-mas!!!


PS: Get off your butts and stop letting the CP be your "go." Over a billion in tithes and offerings and you folks are givin' lip over trees and truffles.



Boy oh boy...


PSS: lots of love on the side.

Tom Parker said...

CB:

You said to Wade:"You just can't let it go, can you Wade?"

Am I to conclude that you are ok with this excess by PP and that money could not have been put to better uses and that you support the Homemaking degree?

Kevin M. Crowder said...

I support the homemaking degree 100%.

You will always be able to find things you don't like whose cost could be better spent for your kingdom project.

I love Dorothy's spirit of nostalgia and preservation. She will one day pass on a great heritage to another generation. DP is a very special lady whom God has gifted with many gifts beneficial to many young ladies.

Christiane said...

Hi KEVIN,

I was trying to suggest a possibility that the Pattersons may not understand the 'paradox', if you will, of the juxtaposition of their Christmas videos next to the problems many are facing today.

On the other hand, the 'Manor' looks like many upper middle class residences at this time of year.
It is certainly not 'upper-class'
as in 'top drawer', no.
The fact that the comfort is flaunted is a problem for many who see it, Kevin. It is more of case of possible 'flaunting' in the face of the suffering of fellow Christians that is disturbing.

Jealously, heaven's no.
Surprise. No, the Pattersons did the same thing last year.
A visceral upset and discomfort: I think that is more likely the case, Kevin. What the Pattersons are doing so 'tastefully' is actually in bad taste, considering the times and people's circumstances. So it's not so much 'sour grapes', as it is 'don't they know any better?'

I think people are 'scandalized' by the insensitivity and inappropriateness. The video would have been more appropriate if done by Martha Stewart, than the wife of a Seminary president.
Mrs. Patterson has the clout to do so much for than what this video represents. She could be a force for encouragement to people who need that so much right now.
She is missing her opportunity and that is sad.

Sorry, if you are upset about reactions to the video, Kevin.
I just sincerely hope that the Pattersons did not produce the video as an 'in your face' production. I actually hope they 'know not what they do'.

Be peaceful,
Love, L's

Kevin M. Crowder said...

L's,

Thank you for the gracious reply. I find the video in good taste for this reason: it gives hope, and warmth and holiday cheer. A bit braggy? Maybe, but I think one can almost hear her heart as she performs her duty as hostess of the seminary. We are losing much of this southern charm in America and I find it sad. I believe our Lord wants us to "settle in" to this earth He has given us. To make the most of each day, to provide a heritage for our children and grandchildren. That being said, allow me to humbly agree with you on one point L's.

"Mrs. Patterson has the clout to do so much for than what this video represents. She could be a force for encouragement to people who need that so much right now.
She is missing her opportunity and that is sad."

I agree. But the video, PM, SWBTS, the SBC, and all that Wade and others dislike about these things is not the reason you and I find a lacking in Dr. Dorothy's "visible" benevolence.

Sadly however I must confess to the same sin for which you and I have judged dear Dorothy.

I am not using my position in life and in Christ as efficiently and effectively as I could. But where is the line? Sell all and follow me? What does that really mean? Never put up a tree? Never collect ornaments? Never accept priceless gifts and artifacts?

7 billion people on this rock. I am not going to put all the monkeys on Dorothy's back.

I have said a lot of bad things about the Patterson's on this blog over the years. If I am ever blessed by getting to meet them, I have to first ask for their forgiveness.

Tea anyone?


K

Jonquil said...

Wade, I sew. I learned from my mama, who learned from her mama, on back. I had a long conversation with my friends on my blog. None of us save money by making our own clothes. You can't. Cloth is more expensive than clothing, pure and simple. I was talking to my mother about this, and she agreed with me: she said it hadn't saved money to sew clothing since at least the 1980s, when all the cloth stores started shutting down. (The remainder mostly cater to quilters, not home sewers.)

Learning to sew on a machine is not a tool for saving money. It's an upper-middle-class hobby, nothing more.

They're teaching tools that suit a vanished life.

Lydia said...

"Many of you should know me by now to know I have my own brain."

Actually Kev, your views seem to have changed back and forth over the past years of blogging here. So, not sure if I know you or not.

Tom Parker said...

Kevin:

Me thinks you would make an excellent Fiction writer. Your stories keep a changing.

Christiane said...

KEVIN, I'll have a cup of Earl Grey, please.
I love the stuff.

You know, Mrs. Patterson is not that far from projecting what people are 'looking for'. If her videos at Christmas ever show her reaching out into the surrounding community to those who wait for Christ in despair and suffering, then I will personally send her a gift: a samovar that was made in the Ukraine.

And a fabulous recipe for samovar tea with spices. (A family secret from my Godmother, who is of Ukrainian descent.)

Mrs Patterson might be able to pull it off. She knows that with Christ the Lord, all things are possible, so we may hope.
Love, L's

Kevin M. Crowder said...

I always reserve the right to revise and extend my remarks. i have been furious along with the rest of you all at the stories coming out of SWBTS, but Wade reports the headlines. I do not read other blogs. If I smell possible inaccuaracies then I do some digging. Wade has never been able to substanciate the nasty claims he has made about the Pattersons over the years. I still disagree with some of their theology and some of their actions over the years. But I can forgive and move on. The Patterson's are not part of the systemic problems in the SBC. Whether you thin my view has changed or not, so be it, but it is where I stand today.

K

Kevin M. Crowder said...

Thank you L's, for at least endulging me. And I would be happy to have Earl Grey with you as well.

K

Tom Parker said...

Kevin:

You said--"Wade has never been able to substanciate the nasty claims he has made about the Pattersons over the years."

How much proof do you need?

Louis said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Louis said...

Kevin, I appreciate your desire for the whole story to be told, as well as your concern that some of the objections stated here might arise from petty jealousy. But it seems to me that the real issue is not that the Drs. Patterson live in opulent surroundings; but that said opulence is paid for by the sacrificial offerings of churches and individuals who are being encouraged to dig deeper and give more sacrificially so that the gospel might shared with more people.

I daresay that those sacrificial givers might not be as inclined to generosity if they were to discover that even a portion of their gifts was being used to purchase a 6th Christmas tree for the Pattersons' home, or a 2nd Christmas stocking for the Pattersons' dog.

believer333 said...

"The video would have been more appropriate if done by Martha Stewart, than the wife of a Seminary president."

Quite right! From Mrs. Patterson, it just comes out bad taste. I come from a wealthy family, so I'm very aware of the attitudes behind lavish displays. In my case, I realized the emptiness of it all and walked far away from that whole lifestyle. The last thing I want to see is have it promoted as "Christian" hospitality. Nor do I want to see young Christian women being taught this attitude or think it is necessary to being a good wife.

I would be far more impressed with a simpler and less ostentatious display of Christmas cheerfulness and the bulk of dollars spent on giving gifts to children's families with less money, turkey dinners for the poor, and some sort of outreach to the poor.

Darby Livingston said...

Well said, Believer. I've found myself counseling some of the women in our church to stop reading the excellent wife-type books because they try to be mini-Martha Stewarts, except they judge themselves on that basis rather than on the merit of Christ alone. I hate to see wealthy Americana promoted as Christian hospitality.

Chris Ryan said...

Kevin,

You wrote, "We are losing much of this southern charm in America..." And that has been the problem for the SBC for many, many years. For too long the SBC has attached what it meant to be from the southern United States to what it meant to be Christian. So alcohol is evil (southern aristocratic culture, not Bible). So now, the highest and holiest calling of woman is homemaker (southern culture, not Bible). The problem with programs like the homemaking degree is that they are, as someone else pointed out, representative of a culture that has faded. They are nostalgic. They are not Biblical imperitives. They do not represent a furthering of the Gospel message but a push towards Southern culture. There is much about that culture that was great. But that culture is not where we find ourselves now. And such nostalgia is hardly conducive to pressing forward with an unadulterated Gospel message.

CB Scott said...

Tom Parker,

First I would like to say to you that I pray you and your family have a blessed time in the presence of God the Father as we all celebrate the birth of God the Son in the flesh.

Now to answer your two questions.

You ask/said:

"Am I to conclude that you are ok with this excess by PP and that money could not have been put to better uses and that you support the Homemaking degree?"

1. I am not in favor of excessive spending by anyone in SBC life including myself. And I have been guilty and I have repented.

2. Tom, I have spent 12 years of my life as a student in four different seminaries. I worked in the administration of 1 seminary for 10 years. My wife worked in the administration of 2 seminaries for a total of 12 years.

Based upon my experience with seminarians and their families I must, in all honesty, say to you that all six of our SBC seminaries desperately need to establish a homemaking and child rearing degree.

Tom, if you and I ever meet in person I will buy your lunch and tell you exactly why I believe Dr. Patterson has done a very good thing in establishing the homemaking degree at SWBTS. But be warned; It will take at least three hours of your time for me to give the whole story as to why I am so strongly convicted that the degree is a necessity in this present culture.

cb

Kevin M. Crowder said...

Louis,

I simply do not consider that opulent. I do not hail from wealth nor poverty. PM is what it is. Much of what you see has been donated, purchased by the Patterson’s, or purchased by the Seminary for the purpose of entertaining guests, benefactors, students, classes of students, and the Patterson's family--as it is their home as well.

I am going to personally guarantee you that not one penny of CP dollars was spent on the Patterson's personal trees or their dog's stocking.

Your idea of the best dollar spent, or the most pragmatic use of every penny may not always be the best solution for the greater good.

Even discussing this is a waste of time.

No where does the Bible say “take every dime you would not otherwise spend on only the bare necessities and give it away to the poor”. (explicitly, implicitly, or principlicly)

K
nonesses

Lydia said...

Well said, Believer. I've found myself counseling some of the women in our church to stop reading the excellent wife-type books because they try to be mini-Martha Stewarts, except they judge themselves on that basis rather than on the merit of Christ alone. I hate to see wealthy Americana promoted as Christian hospitality.

Wed Dec 23, 11:12:00 PM 2009

Thank you, Darby and believer. I lived this "hospitality" lifestyle for many years with our jet setting mega church circle. Talk about empty and sinful! It was more about who was taking the senior pastor to Vail skiiing this year than anything else. It was all about face (hosting) time with the celebrity Christians who paraded through on their highly paid speaking gigs.

It dawned on me at some point that we were no better than Hollywood types except we slap a fish on it and call it Christian. It is a very insulated world.

Louis said...

Kevin--I love ya, bro, but you're arguing in circles.

Granted, many (most? all?) of the items under discussion were purchased by the Pattersons. But whence cometh their cash flow? Are they printing greenbacks in the basement? No, Dr. Patterson is drawing a salary paid with CP dollars--so it is simply not accurate to state that "not one penny of CP dollars was spent on the Patterson's personal trees or their dog's stocking."

So perhaps I would state my point more clearly in this question: Why should my church give sacrificially to the CP when our sacrifice is being used to help pay the sort of salary which would enable a seminary president to afford such extravagances? I find it difficult to justify increasing our church's CP gifts when I see how some of those gifts are used. I would much rather keep those dollars at home and use them to buy sleeping bags and food for the homeless people I encounter every day, rather than helping to buy teacup chandeliers for Pecan Manor.

Tom Parker said...

Kevin:

What you are saying makes no sense at all. Sorry you find this discussion a waste of your time.

Kevin M. Crowder said...

Fine Louis. Keep your money. No one is asking for it. A man's wages do not belong to the CP, nor the scrutiny of a masked blogger. Do you follow your pastor's wife to the mall or the grocery store telling her what to buy? NO!

I'm done! This is SO STUPID!

Sheila said...

There is something that bothers me about the "homemaking degree," other than the fact that most, if not all of the material can be learned in the home, in a club, or on HGTV. It is the likelihood that young women who will become the wives of preachers are going to be burdened by an impossible standard.

As the wife of a minister serving in the San Francisco Bay area, I dare say that almost all of my peers have careers. These careers are an essential part of our ministry. The fact that we work in these jobs has allowed our husbands to serve small churches in a high-priced area. I know pastors' wives who are lawyers, nurses, pharmacists, MDs, legal secretaries, and even a city bus driver. Many times we carry health insurance for the family so that the church does not have to.

I have seen many young, bright-eyed couples come to my area in view of a call, only to run away when they realize they may have to live in an apartment, and she may have to work. God never seems to call these type of people away from the Bible belt.

If a prospective preacher's wife were to ask my advice, I would tell her to get a good education: pharmacology, nursing, occupational therapy, even teaching. With these skills, she will be able to help support her family should her husband be called to a church outside of the South.

By the way, even though I have worked full time since my youngest child was in kindergarten, I would still call myself a homemaker. When my children living with us, our meals were home cooked, and I used to love to sew. So, please do not think I do not value homemaking skills.

Jonquil said...

Amen, Sheila.

The thing I did for my daughter so that she is prepared for her household is to send her to college.

If I believed that it was unChristian for women to work outside the home (I don't!), I would recommend that a course in homemaking include gardening and canning, both of which are brutally hard and dirty work, but which can save money. Sewing? Not so much. There's a reason people don't darn socks -- it isn't that standards have dropped, it's that socks are so cheap there's no point in spending the time that could be spent elsewhere.

Kevin M. Crowder said...

Tom,

That was the word verification. I must have typed it int the text field. But now that yu mention it, I am going to move on until the people on this thread act like Christians again. Few here have met Patterson. Shame on them. Some liberal women are so full of hate it really makes ME want to puke!!!

Tom Parker said...

Kevin:

You said--"I'm done! This is SO STUPID!"

Temper, Temper young man.

Wade Burleson said...

Kevin,

To question the wisdom of one's actions is not to question the character of one's soul. Dr. Patterson is a brother in Christ, and a man of God.

It would be wise on your part to know and understand the difference between the two. It might prevent you from calling a person a fool and only suggest your brother in Christ's actions might be foolish in nature.

In His Grace,

Wade

Wade Burleson said...

Shiela,

Really good thoughts.

Thanks for the comment. I hope people read what you have said.

Wade

Wade Burleson said...

Louis,

You ask the million dollar question:

Why should my church give sacrificially to the CP when our sacrifice is being used to help pay the sort of salary which would enable a seminary president to afford such extravagances? I find it difficult to justify increasing our church's CP gifts when I see how some of those gifts are used. I would much rather keep those dollars at home and use them to buy sleeping bags and food for the homeless people I encounter every day, rather than helping to buy teacup chandeliers for Pecan Manor.

Wade Burleson said...

CB

You write: if you and I ever meet in person I will buy your lunch and tell you exactly why I believe Dr. Patterson has done a very good thing in establishing the homemaking degree at SWBTS. But be warned; It will take at least three hours of your time for me to give the whole story as to why I am so strongly convicted that the degree is a necessity in this present culture.

We have even less in common than I thought. Seminary's were never designed to teach homemakers how to sew and cook, and if SB's like yourself believe we should establish seminaries for this purpose, then we will never see eye to eye on this issue.

Wade

Christiane said...

warning: disrespectful, ungraceful rant to follow, contains poorly written sarcasm and likely will be a waste of your time)

Instead of turning the wives of future ministers into 'tatting Marthas', why not allow these wives to 'audit' the classes that their husbands are taking for credit?

The women could sit quietly (for they must be silent) in the back of the room and simply listen.

The women will never 'preach' and they won't disturb the class by asking questions because, being women, they have nothing of value to offer, you know.

They might could use the enrichment of these classes to become better teachers of the young, and so build up the Church.
Anyway, it's a shame to waste those empty seats, as seminary enrollments are falling.

And the President and the Trustees? What do they have to fear? Ah, the spirit of Lottie Moon. But only once in a generation is born such a one as her. And in her day, the Church was on the move for Christ. This modern generation is much more conservative.

Kevin M. Crowder said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kevin M. Crowder said...

WARNING: Disrespectful but loving chide to L's,

Allow you priests to marry, then you can have a voice in our present debate.

Love in Christ,

Kevin

CB Scott said...

Wade,

I did not say seminaries were established to teach homemaking.

I think you might agree that I know the basic purpose of a seminary education.

The basic purpose of a seminary degree was not the subject I saw discussed in this comment thread.

I was speaking to the pros and cons of the homemaking degree at SWBTS only and not to the general purpose of a seminary education.

I said it was a good thing to establish the homemaking degree.

That particular degree is not for everybody I am sure just as a degree in sacred music is not for everybody.

Actually, my specific statement which qualified my position on the subject was:

"Based upon my experience with seminarians and their families I must, in all honesty, say to you that all six of our SBC seminaries desperately need to establish a homemaking and child rearing degree."

I said that in light of what I know about seminarians and their families specifically in this culture after having spent twelve years as one and ten years working very closely with a few thousands of them.

Let me go on to say that the aspect of child rearing would probably be something of a greater need than homemaking alone.

It is my opinion that every seminary student regardless of gender would be far better equipped for a future ministry if they were required to take at least four to six hours of home and family management and child rearing.

I certainly would not say that every seminary student should get a degree in homemaking.

Maybe that will better help you understand what I am saying.

cb

Christiane said...

Advising disrespectful but dear-to-me Kevin:

I am absolutely in support of all my Christian sisters: regardless of denomination.

Besides, I hate 'tatting'. It's hard on the eyes and leads to arthritis in your hands when you get older. Lace-making is easier!
I wouldn't wish tatting lessons on anyone.

Ungracefully, but sincerely,
L's

believer333 said...

"It is my opinion that every seminary student regardless of gender would be far better equipped for a future ministry if they were required to take at least four to six hours of home and family management and child rearing."

That would be admirable. Also, it is a far cry from the Martha Stewart type of fake (IMO) degree that SBC is offering only women.

Kevin M. Crowder said...

L's,

I submit. I know not what tatting is.

I confess. I have a wisdom tooth coming in that needs extraction. Dentist out for the week. my doctor put me on antibiotics and vicodin yesterday.

I recant NOTHING, except for my tone.

fyi: Covenant Seminary offers seminary wives not free audits, but a free degree of equal or lesser value than their hubands. Yes, yu heard right. They can get an MDIV along side their husbands for free. (and they can ask questions in class; but no preaching) ;)

Push for that Wade! Leave the homemaking classes.

Steve said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jonquil said...

Tatting is a lacemaking art and (glares humorously at L's) DOES NOT CAUSE ARTHRITIS.

Tatting, like crocheting, embroidery, and bobbin lace, produces great pleasure but rarely great utility. I'm all in favor of it, but I certainly never had time when I had wee ones. (Or money; supplies can be very expensive.)

Christiane said...

KEVIN,

Vicodin should knock you out.
That pain must be fierce.

Take those antibiotics as prescribed and don't miss a dose.
If, in spite of the medication, the pain gets a lot worse, or your face and jaw starts swelling up, call the doctor and let him know.


ALL IS FORGIVEN !
Am in great sympathy for you and will pray. Go get some rest.
L's

Steve said...

Anyone who thinks the United States doesn't have enough "deers" (sic) should go visit the place. The middle part of the country, at least, is overflowing with them because so many dear hearts saw Bambi too many times and have restricted hunting just like they have restricted smoking, beef and pork agriculture, and even cooking outdoors.

Jonquil said...

Oops, Christiane not L's.

The point is, quite seriously, homemaking is very different from being good at home decoration, arts and crafts, and other time-consuming pleasures. And often the most precious gift a woman can give to her household is her salary (and her health insurance!), not her sewing clothes for the family.

Rex Ray said...

Kevin,
Did you say “I have a wisdom tooth coming in that needs extraction”? Well, let me tell you my sad story:

A filling fell out, and on October 6, a dentist told me the pain in my UPPER tooth was not caused by the lost filling in my LOWER wisdom.

Long story short, after 2 trips to doctors, 5 trips to 3 dentists , 5 x-ray examinations, teeth flattened for better fit, my wisdom was pulled on December 8.

All that time I lived on pain pills and ice packs. I’ll skip the pain for having it cut out.

It doesn’t hurt now but still sore. I finished my second round of antibiotics last night.

REFERRED pain is like a dog hurting from being kicked by a guy angry with his wife.

As Lincoln said, “I care not for a man’s religion if his dog is not the better for it”, I care not for a man’s religion if his house flaunts wealth with no room for a poor stranger.


Kevin, I wish you could sing, ‘All I want for Christmas is my two front teeth.’

Rex Ray said...

“Oh, holy night…”

That’s what I grew up hearing about the birth of Christ, but tonight at our church candle light service, I heard a new version.

I couldn’t sleep, so I wrote Kevin about teeth. Went back to bed and I’m still wide awake.

I guess I’m angry with myself for sitting through that service without saying anything just like everyone else.

Part of a book was read about the birth of Jesus. The words were clear and read with delight and fascination.

The reading was a blow by blow description of a woman having a baby – the cries, the pushing, the misshapen head from the birth cannel - it had it all – blood, mucus etc.

Can anyone tell me why?

Lydia said...

Sheila, Your comment was spot on. I almost blew my green tea on this:

"God never seems to call these type of people away from the Bible belt."

Former FBC Insider said...

Idea for a more effective video:

Dorothy dressed in a nice shirt and her dress jeans, hair net on her favorite 'do', comfortable tennis shoes for the hours she will spend on her feet serving the homeless in a shelter or soup kitchen. (Directors note: add some sweat on her brow.)

Not saying she doesn't do that, just that it would make a better Christmas Spirit video.

Lydia said...

"I am going to personally guarantee you that not one penny of CP dollars was spent on the Patterson's personal trees or their dog's stocking."

Nor on the big game hunts in Africa nor the world travels nor the fancy hats nor the remodeling of Pecan Manor and furnishings.

We all know the Pattersons do not make enough money for their lifestyle. Not even with a moderate 6 figure salary. Benefactors must step in and divert money from the work of the CP in order for them to live the life they live. Money from the CP had to be diverted to remodeling Pecan Manor into a Southern Mansion and to pay for the taxidermy bills. (Which are not cheap)

And this is quite normal to them. Been going on for years. Actually, this is quite normal in many Christian celebrity cirlces.

The question is why? What does it mean?

Lydia said...

"Let me go on to say that the aspect of child rearing would probably be something of a greater need than homemaking alone."

Seriously, what curriculum are they using? The Pearls? Ezzo's? Growing kids God's Way? There is some sicko and bizarre stuff out there that is called Christian.

Why not teach them to rely on the Holy Spirit, tons of prayer and the Word? Like our parents had to?

There is a huge movement out there in Christianity to make childrearing uniform and it is down right cultish.

It would be interesting to know if any of the current homemaking students are now married with children. Taking time away from their family for school.

This homemaking degree at Seminary is nothing but a push to make stepford pastor wives in the SBC in Patterson's mold.

Christiane said...

Perhaps someday the house will become a place of refuge for the 'people who sit outside the gate'. They can be fed and clothed, there. And, if by chance, they learn of Christ, then the money spent on the house will have been justified.

Louis said...

Kevin: It's all well and good that you tell me to keep my money, since you were not asking for it in the first place. But to say that "no one is asking for" my money is simply not true. I am an SBC pastor and get all of the stewardship/CP literature that is mass-mailed to SBC churches. Oh yes, they DO ask for my money. As an aside: Since I am the pastor, the answer to your question about whether or not I follow the pastor's wife around the mall offering my opinion on what she buys is YES. ;-)

Wade: Thank you.

Christiane: Well said. VERY well said.

Christiane said...

FOR REX RAY,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDeXUvWbLp8

Many prayers on this Holy Night,
Love, L's

revhardy said...

Many years ago as a young, wide-eyed pastor, I attended one of my first state conventions. I was somewhat awed as one of the "big guys" rushed past with his entourage, headed for the pulpit. His expensive suit, immaculate appearance, gold jewelery and air of success was captivating. He mounted the stage and began preaching an inspiring message on the need for followers of Christ to avoid the "trapppings of success by the worlds standards" and the need for believers to associate with and sacrificially give and care for those who had "less." He then left the stage amid the amens, cheers and applause of all in attendance, except for a small few of us.

The irony of the moment was profound to me.

There is nothing inherently wrong with decorating your home to the hilt at Christmas time. The irony, however, is profound to me..........

Lin said...

" But to say that "no one is asking for" my money is simply not true"

I think this may be the crux of the whole matter. Many SBC churches are pounding on the shortfall in Lottie Moon and the CP in general. It is a big deal right now. Many folks have lost their jobs and are being asked to 'sacrifically' give to the SBC.

That makes the video in poor taste and it makes the Patterson's lifestyle in poor taste. As a matter of fact, all the large salaries in Christendom while asking for more money is in very bad taste.

And a homemaking degree in this economy is a pipe dream. I know PhD's who are taking 10 buck an hour jobs. If we continue with Obama economic principles, all wives are going to have to work for low wages unless they are part of the Christian elite. The only jobs being created right now are government jobs.

Darby Livingston said...

I still think the question isn't how lavish the seminary president's house should be decorated, but is seminary the best place to train pastors or their wives in the first place.

Kevin M. Crowder said...

There is no shortfall of cash in the Kingdom work. God accomplished everything he intended to in 2009. He already has the money He needs to accomplish Him will in 2010.

Lydia,

I do pray that you have a joyous holiday well into Epiphany and Easter.


The Lord bless you and keep you, and all that jazz!

K

Thy Peace said...

Off Topic:

NYT > Senate Passes Health Care Overhaul Bill.

Also via Google Labs Living Stories:

The Struggle Over Health Care - The New York Times.

Washington Tackles Health Care Reform - The Washington Post.

Lydia said...

"There is no shortfall of cash in the Kingdom work. God accomplished everything he intended to in 2009. He already has the money He needs to accomplish Him will in 2010."

Remember Kev, He disciplines those who are His. It is simply bad stewardship to keep throwing money at the SBC so that PP can use seminary resources to get his big game heads stuffed among other things. I guess you did not see the taxidermy invoices sent to SWBTS. PP (and others) have been living high off the SBC for years. And he has a lot of rich friends who would rather give to him than to our entities. He is an SBC employee, you know. The stakeholders have every right to point such things out contrary to what many have been taught that it is a sin to question the king.

Ron said...

Kevin, my question about CP spending for the Patterson’s travels was in response to your following statement. “But i have given this some deep thought. It is not a sin to be well off, clean, a collector of fine things, and enjoy a style and comfort of living which seems foreign to others.”

Patterson has a style of living that has been financed for many years now by CP funds that pay his salary and finance his travels. You talk as though he made his fortune and is now financing his lifestyle on his hard earned salary. I am aware of his frequent round the world travels including his many trips to Africa and big game hunting expeditions. Who paid for the majority of these trips for Dorothy and himself? Was it his personal funds?

CB Scott might be able tell us, who paid for the trips when Patterson was president of SEBTS of professors and Ben Cole as they travelled to mission fields trying to find dirt on the IMB and Jerry Rankin to use to in their scheme to get Keith Eitle in as president of the IMB. Was it CP funds?

When you call SWBTS, ask them to also give us Patterson’s salary and expense budget for travel, etc. When his buddy from Alaska was on the SBC Exec Committtee, he continually attacked Morris Chapman at Patterson’s urging for not publicizing Chapman’s salary. Patterson hired this guy at SWBTS (I forget his name). Patterson uses CP funds to reward his buddies with jobs.

I do not have a favorite seminary. I am a Southwestern grad and that is the reason I am interested in what takes place there. I have had dealings with Beeson Divinty School (SB) and its dean Timothy George and respect him and that school. I have also studied at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and had several friends who taught there but I do not know the name of their current president. I am not sure what that has to do with this discussion though. If you want to compare travels I doubt if you will find anyone who compares to Patterson for travel and waste in spending. It is ironic that when Patterson’s friends were trying to get rid of Russell Dilday one of their complaints was money spent on the presidential mansion. Dilday did nothing compared to what Patterson has done. Take about CR hypocrisy.

Ron said...

CB I agree with you that a required course in parenting and marriage or family relationships would be good for all seminaries but a degree in homemaking and all that SWBTS is doing is wrong. I want to take you up on the offer you made to me once also about sharing a BBQ meal and conversation. If you will take me to your favorite BBQ place, I will buy. I had a trip through Birmingham planned in February but it was cancelled. I hope to be through sometime this year though and will contact you. I will enjoy listening to your stories about the CR but you have to listen to mine about the carnal, dishonest attacks by Patterson and other CR supporter on the IMB and its missionaries as well as on SWBTS.

Darby Livingston said...

Lydia has a point. Timothy Keller points out in his book "Counterfeit Gods" that in all his years as a pastor, he's had nearly every sin confessed to him except greed. I believe capitalism is a good economic system for this fallen age. But that doesn't mean that I think the Bible has nothing to say about lifestyle. I'm so sick of people always pointing out how okay God is with Christians living lavish lifestyles. That is nowhere expressly written in the NT, but there are many clues to the opposite. Are we to honestly believe that if Paul were alive in America right now, he wouldn't challenge the excesses? Could it be we all protect Christian excess because we're all afraid of the guns being pointed on ourselves?

Tom Parker said...

Kevin:
You said--"There is no shortfall of cash in the Kingdom work. God accomplished everything he intended to in 2009. He already has the money He needs to accomplish Him will in 2010."

What a cop out!

Is it nave or naive?

believer333 said...

"I was somewhat awed as one of the "big guys" rushed past with his entourage, headed for the pulpit. His expensive suit, immaculate appearance, gold jewelery and air of success was captivating."

This is what concerns me. Too many pastors are wanting this type of success. In our era it is common for pastors to request and require salaries that fit their lifestyle desires.

But this is simply not the sort of thing for those to seek after who are desiring to serve the people of God. This goes hand in hand with the present discussions of leadership and servanthood and IMO is why it is desirable for so many to want to be servant leaders instead of servants of the doulos kind.

Kevin M. Crowder said...

Tom,

You can just call me The Naive in the nave.


Look it up. ;)

K


PS: PP trips to hunt in Africa. I am going to say he pays for them himself. I will believe that until told otherwise. And if the seminary chooses to gift him the trips then that is their perogative in an effort to attract the very best qualified President for the job of Pastor/Professor/CEO.

Btw, Patterson is not an employee of the SBC. The SBC does not have employees.

K

believer333 said...

"And if the seminary chooses to gift him the trips then that is their perogative in an effort to attract the very best qualified President for the job of Pastor/Professor/CEO."

So, now we must have the mentality to buy and woo who "we think" is the best qualified person to serve us. Sounds like a job offer. Where is God and the Holy Spirit in this?

Lydia said...

"Btw, Patterson is not an employee of the SBC. The SBC does not have employees."

Huh? The convention financially supports "entities" and those entities have employees.

This was a concern about Mohler running for SBC Prez, him being an employee.

You are playing word games, Kev.

believer333 said...

"The reading was a blow by blow description of a woman having a baby – the cries, the pushing, the misshapen head from the birth cannel - it had it all – blood, mucus etc.

Can anyone tell me why? "


Rex, My guess is that there are those there that find woman's main worth in her bearing children. Thus, since that is it, it must be seen to be a huge deal.

Inappropriate for a celebration of the birth of Jesus! But creative! :(

Lydia said...

So, now we must have the mentality to buy and woo who "we think" is the best qualified person to serve us. Sounds like a job offer. Where is God and the Holy Spirit in this?

Thu Dec 24, 01:54:00 PM 2009

Hmm. Wouldn't the 'best', in this case, be those who would not want extravagance? And would not consider luxury lifestyles to be important or an entitlement for the job? Sounds like we have our qualifications backwards.

Lydia said...

And often the most precious gift a woman can give to her household is her salary (and her health insurance!), not her sewing clothes for the family.

Thu Dec 24, 02:20:00 AM 2009

Amen! As Carolyn Custis James says, an Ezer fighting for her family.

You cannot beat the Goodwill for clothes. Why would anyone pay for kids clothes at retail when they can only wear them a few months before growing out of them? You cannot make kids clothes for a dollar. But you can buy a nice top for a dollar at Goodwill and it is amazing how many things they have that still have the tags on them. You find darling girls dresses if you look for 5 bucks.

I wonder if that is in the swbts curriculum? If not, I am giving here for free. But no credit hours. Just a big savings :o)

Sheila said...

Kevin says:

"And if the seminary chooses to gift him the trips then that is their perogative [sic] in an effort to attract the very best qualified President for the job of Pastor/Professor/CEO"

Here is the question: Is he the best qualified for the office of President? How is that measured? Is the seminary growing, attracting the best and brightest to prepare for ministry in their graduate program? Or is the seminary shrinking, and are staff being laid off? Is he a divisive figure? I know some churches will not even look at a recent grad of SWBTS because of him. (Unfair, I know)

On those merits, I believe he is overpaid, and I don't even know what his salary is. The same goes for Robert Reccord at NAMB. The salary may be the correct level for the office, but neither of these men perform(ed) well in office.

And it makes me wonder: What standards do the trustees use when evaluating his performance?

Kevin M. Crowder said...

"What standards do the trustees use when evaluating his performance?"

i would think in Patterson's case they looked at his Educational and Theological prowess, his leadership and administrative gifts, his dediction to Sola Scriptura and other baptistic doctrines, his power in the pulpit, his brilliance in the languages, his record of service, on and on and on...

Obviously I disagree with Patterson on a few minor points of doctrine, but he is God's man for the job. Tear him down if you like. Satan is loving ya'all.

Tom Parker said...

Kevin:

You said:"but he is God's man for the job."

How do you know that?

I say he is not!

Who is right--your or me?

Neither your or I really know.

Study the history of the CR and his role and your glowing view of this Man just might change.

Lydia said...

Obviously I disagree with Patterson on a few minor points of doctrine, but he is God's man for the job. Tear him down if you like. Satan is loving ya'all.

Thu Dec 24, 02:21:00 PM 2009

Actually Kev, Satan loves it when we continue to look the other way and support excesses and a slick variation of the prosperity gospel.

We redefine Christianity when we do that. I have been guilty of just that.

Martin_Luther said...

Christmas at Pecan Manor
2007


"..Pecan Manor belongs to the Southern Baptist People.."
Paige Patterson

"What if Christmas, he thought, doesn't come from a store. What if Christmas, perhaps, means a little bit more."
~Dr. Seuss

"God Bless Us, Every One!"
Charles Dickens

Kevin M. Crowder said...

I find it interesting that you all bash Patterson for being open and transparent. How bout bashing Mohler, Kelley, Iorg, Akin and Roberts?

Becasue you havn't a clue how they live. Nor is it your business. Calla trustee and complain if you have an issue. To bash a man publically like this is pure evil. It is satanic to the dotting of every i and crossing of every t.

If you all knew the real benefits package of your good buddy Wade, alot of you would throw up some more.

Its all relative my friends. My sister travels to Singapore in January. I think I might have her pick up an ornament and bring it back so I can donate it to Pecan Manor in honor of the fine folks of Grace and Truth 2U. Why yes, Kevin, what a splendid idea. hehehe...we gots them where we wants them... :)

believer333 said...

It is my understanding that Patterson's taxidermy bills were recently being sent to SEBTS for payment. IOW the seminary paid for them. Here is a sampling of his mounted dead animals.

http://www.paigepatterson.info/speakingschedule.cfm (Under Game Trophies click on Safari and Wall Trophies)

I'm pretty sure he wasn't eating all of that meat. As an animal lover, I find that deplorable. I don't consider killing and stuffing carcasses as guarding and guiding the creatures of the world. It is my guess that his collection would rival some museums.

Lydia said...

"I find it interesting that you all bash Patterson for being open and transparent. How bout bashing Mohler, Kelley, Iorg, Akin and Roberts?

Becasue you havn't a clue how they live."

You might be surprised about that. But you are right, Mohler is definitely not open and transparent.

"Nor is it your business."

When they keep begging for money and lay off fathers of 3 kids while they spend 9 million on campus beautification, as an SB, you better bet it is my business. Even men with lofty titles can make very poor decisions. Someday you will figure that out.

If they do not want the scrutiny, then I would recommend not trying to become a Christian celebrity while an employee of the SB entities with speaking gigs, radio programs, books, etc.

Sheila mentioned Bob Reccord. He was a symptom of a much deeper problem in the SBC. Even after it all came out, he was able to get more guys with lofty titles to sign a letter of support for him.

All those sermons about it being a sin to dare question the celebrity did not take. But it did for many who have found some idols to follow and defend.

Don't forget, Paul made tents so as not to be a burden on the Body.

Rex Ray said...

Kevin,
At times we all have a problem of ‘There’s none so blind as those who refuse to see’.

Do you not know Patterson’s primary job of replacing Hemphill?

Hemphill was the pick of the ‘powers that be’ but later they realized he had two weak spots. He would not break the law and he had a soft heart.

Thus he could not rid unwanted Seminary professors that had “hunkered down”. (Hunker means they signed the BFM 2000 etc. but was not ‘one of them’, and there was no legal way to fire them.)

So Hemphill was ‘promoted’? Patterson became the ‘hatchet man’. Patterson was pleased with himself how he did it. He called them to his office one by one and explained the facts.

Resign with full benefits and recommendation, or be fired without them.

Simple – huh? Our former interim pastor was one of them.

Bill said...

Let's say for the moment that I accept the fact that some people need training to be a homemaker or parent.

But a degree? This isn't academic stuff folks, it is vocational training, such as is taken by high school students all around the country who either aren't suited for, or interested in higher education.

Homemaking and parenting are extremely important. But they aren't degree-worthy. They simply aren't an academic field of study. CP dollars should not fund women learning how to sew, cook, or burp a baby.

Jonquil said...

Bill:

One of the questions a business is supposed to ask is, "Is this my core competency?" Which translates into "Can somebody else do this better?"

If you want to learn to sew or cook, the local community college certainly offers night courses; other institutions may as well. Sewing and cooking classes are very popular in community centers; parenting classes are available everywhere; you can find posters in your pediatrician's office. If you want a degree in homemaking, why don't you get it from a school that offers a home economics degree?

I looked at the Powerpoint slides of that trophy wall. That there is a very expensive hobby.

Ron said...

Kevin, you seem to know a lot about Patterson's ability and character. Remind me again of where you went to seminary and how you have made contact with Patterson and the other seminary presidents. You asked me about my favorite seminary president. Who is yours? Have you called SWBTS yet?

Kevin M. Crowder said...

Dr. Bryan Chapell,

Dr. Al Mohler,

Dr. Molly Marshall----hahaha JK

I am not even saying PP is my favorite Seminary President. But I have decided to stand up for him on this blog because he is my brother. I'd say it was also because the HS has led me to do this, but you'all while telling me to listen to the Spirit out of one fork in your tongue, would chide me for blaming it on God with the other fork.

Liberals sure reek of wormwood!


K

Joe Blackmon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Suzanne McCarthy said...

To tell you the truth I didn't see anything that shocking in the Xmas trees, except that they were all put up and decorated by the "staff."

But this,

http://www.paigepatterson.info/speakingschedule.cfm (Under Game Trophies click on Safari and Wall Trophies)

is truly the most bizarre, pagan and outlandish sight I have ever associated with any kind of Christianity. I really want someone to tell me this isn't so.

I do know that we have a superabundance of deer, and that there is nothing wrong with eating meat. But the display in the PPT reminds me of the legend that the Romans ate all they could get down, then puked and ate some more. It is the worst kind of excessive decadence I could imagine.

The video Wade showed was mild in comparison.

Truly bizarre - thanks for sharing that with me.

believer333 said...

"Getting rid of those seminary professors who were too liberal to sign the BFM 2000--right on brother!!! "

IMO it wasn't a matter of being liberal or not, it was rather shocking that the demand was made in the first place. Baptist churches have always been self organized. We are all a priests in the community of the priesthood of believers. No one should ever think they can stand between God and the body of believers as a whole.

Christiane said...

Peace of Christ be with you this night.

'Why is this night, above all other nights, different?'

In the Peace of Christ, The vigil of the Christmas Nativity begins once more with the lighting of the Christmas Candle against the mid-winter darkness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPeVIuRjUi4

Rex Ray said...

Joe Blackmon,
I believe your attitude toward me made you jump to conclusions.

I wrote the fired professors signed the BFM 2000, but you read it as they “were too liberal to sign”.

You wrote; “Right on brother!!!”

I’ll just say ‘Oh brother’.

CB Scott said...

Ron,

I have just caught up here and I read your comment.

It is a deal. Whenever you plan to be in Birmingham send me an email. We will spend some time together. But as I have said, I will be more than glad to pay the bill.

Now, for everyone on this thread:

I repeat my comment to Tom Parker relating to excessive spending;

"I am not in favor of excessive spending by anyone in SBC life including myself. And I have been guilty and I have repented."

And I would also like to state for the record that I know for a fact that the meat taken during the Safaris was given to people in villages for food. They were very happy to get it.

That may make no difference in your opinions, but now you know the truth.

I have had a great variety of experiences with Dr. Paige Patterson. (since 1980) I feel that I know him fairly well. And I must say I still believe him to be a lover of God who has done much to advance the Kingdom in the last fifty years in many ways. And please remember, we are all flawed. And for some of us, our flaws are made more public that the flaws of others. But we will all face a just God who knows each and every motive of our hearts. (That is often a frightening thing for me. Therefore I thank God for grace.)

And again, that may make no difference in your opinions, but that is my experience with the man and my opinion of him.

Nonetheless, I do pray the blessing of God upon you all as we celebrate the birth of our Lord Jesus this Christmas Eve.

cb

Sheila said...

Kevin said:

"Tear him [Patterson] down if you like. Satan is loving ya'all."

Please show where I was tearing him down. The SWBTS is shrinking. He is at the helm.

I highly recommend you add "Good to Great" by Jim Collins to your reading list (and his addendum written specifically for non-profits). We need to face the brutal reality. The SBC that many people once thought to be invincible, is in trouble. Our vision for the future has to be more than adding homemaking classes to the seminary.

Tom Parker said...

Joe B:

You said:"Getting rid of those seminary professors who were too liberal to sign the BFM 2000--right on brother!!"

That getting rid of meant these people were fired.

PP would be proud of your heartlessness, Joe.

Joe Blackmon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Darby Livingston said...

Kevin,

I think John MacArthur's new book "The Jesus You Can't Ignore" deals with the idea that public confrontation is not sub-Christian, but actually very Christian if done properly. That's the key. Obviously, no one here is directly confronting Patterson, but rather speaking about him or his policies. However, Patterson makes these policies public, therefore leaving himself open to public scrutiny.

Puff pieces designed to drum up publicity can either inspire people or backfire on the one who made the piece. Either way, it was the Pattersons' decision to play that video and live that lifestyle.

Jesus not only confronted his opponents, but warned others about the his opponents. I don't see how that is evil if one thinks the opponents are doing evil. So I don't accept that any derogatory comment is inherently evil and Satanic.

While defending Patterson, you have publicly rebuked others, challenged and chastised Wade. How is what you're doing different from what everyone else is doing. They're discussing the Pattersons and you're discussing those who are discussing.

believer333 said...

"
And I would also like to state for the record that I know for a fact that the meat taken during the Safaris was given to people in villages for food. They were very happy to get it."


Really! Always? I didn't know that one could eat hippo, giraffe, monkey and Zebras. I suppose Zebra is like horse meat. But what about monkey and giraffe; what do they taste like.

That does change the waste issue. However, it does not change the expensive habit of stuffing and mounting one's catch (which others paid for). I doubt that he did all that hunting for the express benefit of others to have food. The impression is that he just loved the thrill of hunting and killing, triumphing over wild powerful creatures. And mounted them so others could be proud of him also.

CB Scott said...

B.333,

Like I said in the comment you quoted:

"That may make no difference in your opinions, but now you know the truth."

I simply stated what I know to be true. You have every right to receive it as you wish and form your own opinion.

BTW, Zebra and monkey taste pretty good. I have no experience with Hippo or Giraffe meat. But I am sure that if it is prepared by an experienced person/persons it would be rather tasty. If it taste anything like Water Buffalo it will make for a very happy meal...and for a lot of people at that.

Merry Christmas,
cb

Bill said...

I have been a hunter most of my life. Safaris are not hunting. It is simply killing. Not that there is anything morally wrong with that per se. It is the same thing that happens in slaughterhouses every day, except perhaps that the animal isn't always killed quickly and cleanly. The only "accomplishment" achieved on a safari is perhaps a little bit of marksmanship.

believer333 said...

"Safaris are not hunting. It is simply killing. Not that there is anything morally wrong with that per se."

That is the impression I am getting, especially if one does not even eat the meat they kill. I suppose it all depends upon the motives, of which we are not privy to. If a person really cared about others not having enough to eat and went hunting for them so they could eat, that is admirable. I'm not getting that impression. I bet the village people did quite well at hunting their own prey.

At any rate......

Hope all are having a wonderful evening with family celebrating the birth of Jesus.

believer333 said...

CB, just out of curiosity. Do the villagers eat the lions, cheeta's and tigers also?

Rex Ray said...

Joe,
It takes people with wide shoulders to admit they’re wrong. Thanks.


Believer 333,
You in scuba gear made me think you were a man – you know ‘a man thing’. Once I flew the ‘Golden Triangle’: Dallas – Alaska – Hawaii – Dallas. (It cost an extra $50 to include Hawaii.) It was before credit cards and I arrived with $50 in Hawaii. Spent 5 days with my cousin and swam alone about six hours a day. Loved it.

I agree with your saying:
“We are all a priests in the community of the priesthood of believers. No one should ever think they can stand between God and the body of believers as a whole.”

I’ll bet I know which you’d choose as our ‘doctrinal guideline’ the Bible or the BFM?

Strange how some will bow to a man-made paper while thinking they’re following God.


Catherine,
I know your heart meant well in referencing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDeXUvWbLp8

It’s a wonderful song. I had seen the reference before, but not for long because of the half dressed singers. Why it is in most churches there are many who could not pass school dress codes?

Do they go to church to worship or to show what they’ve got? On one of Wade’s post or comments, he addressed this problem in saying something like…he could see… peeking through…

Well, I should stop being scrooge on this Christmas day and rejoice in God’s gift to man.

Christiane said...

Hi REX RAY,

Merry Christmas!!
Sorry about the formal gowns.
They are certainly not 'church clothes', but are designed instead for stage presentation. So much for those 'good Irish Catholic girls' I didn't give it much when I shared it, but I see what you are saying, yes. And I bet the nuns that taught these ladies might share your thoughts a bit too about the clothing choices. :)

I'm glad you liked the music, though.

I hope you have a wonderful day.
I hope Belle is doing better.

Love and many prayers,
L's

P.S. And yes, I always, always 'mean well'. Always.

believer333 said...

Rex Ray, you consider the women half dressed because of bare shoulders? Well, I suppose in church. But on stage presentations, they looked beautiful and quite feminine.

You mainlanders. Yeeesh! I'm so glad I live in Hawaii. We wouldn't dream of making our hula dancers cover their shoulders in every performance. <>

believer333 said...

"Believer 333,
You in scuba gear made me think you were a man – you know ‘a man thing’."


LOL Some of our best scuba dive masters are women. I took the training but did not do the work. Diving in Hawaii has been one of my all time best sports. And God has blessed me with awesome experiences down under. But we don't swim alone. Diving always requires a buddy in order to be safe. Hopefully, you have opportunities for diving where ever you are.

Many blessings.... Mele Kalikimaka!

Steve said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bob Cleveland said...

OK, I'll say one thing about the whole homemaking thing.

Peg cooks dinner every Sunday, and the family .. sons and wives & kids .. come here at noon every week. It's a nice thing, and day-after-tomorrow, our younger is going to cook some ribs and bring them over after church. BUT .. I am not sure I know anybody at church that does that. Eating out seems to be the thing.

There certainly seems to be a lot of room for encouraging the continuation of the old nuclear family model that raised up what Tom Brokaw referred to as the greatest generation.

I hear entirely too many people saying "We're going home for Christmas". Home is not where you GO, it's where you STAY, and I fear we greatly underestimate the long-term effects of losing that "home image".

If SWBTS' program helps, more power to them, and kudos to Dr. Patterson for seeing that.

believer333 said...

"There certainly seems to be a lot of room for encouraging the continuation of the old nuclear family model that raised up what Tom Brokaw referred to as the greatest generation. "

That was not by any means the greatest generation. Many women knuckled under to great heartache and loss of dreams chained to the home and kitchen. My mother did the necessities but was not happy. Many women did not emote true happiness, just doing what was expected of them. And the men were having affairs in great numbers, just like today. I don't think we can holi-ize a style of living.

However, mothers staying in reach of intimacy and nurturing care of young children is a good thing. Many parents can adjust their lives to make room for that, and that is a good thing.

As for cooking and cleaning, I see no reason why men and women shouldn't be taught the skills for that, as well as the skills of training up children. It should not be all left to one parent. But this can be learned quite well at less expense through community colleges where real professional training can take place instead of fancy ways of indoctrinating young women into a culture promoted by churchianity.

Mara Reid said...

Bob: "Peg cooks dinner every Sunday, and the family .. sons and wives & kids .. come here at noon every week. It's a nice thing,"

Just curious.
What day of the week does Peg get for her day of rest since it doesn't appear to be on Sunday. ;)

Joking mostly.
However it does bring up a point my mother-in-law always said.
She didn't believe much in fasting but she always said, "If your are going to fast do it on Sunday so the Mama of the family can have a day of rest along with everyone else.

Some people are not happy about restaurants being open on Sunday when those workers ought to be going to church and then going home to rest instead of feeding all those hungry church goers after church. (after, of course, the Mama of the family exhausts herself making a big Sunday dinner for everyone and then cleaning it up afterwards.)

:)

Guess I'm feeling a little mischievous. Some people's nostalgia is other people's hard times.

Suzanne McCarthy said...

You in scuba gear made me think you were a man – you know ‘a man thing’.

There are a lot of stereotypes peeping in on this thread. I too love scuba diving and have a certificate although I have only done it a few times.It is one of the best ways to appreciate rare beauty. I have never thought of it as a "guy thing."

Also I made an increadible discovery yesterday and today. My daughter, 20, has become an absolutely amazing cook. Yeah, she has been away from home a bit this year and has indeed "come home for Christmas." I ask her how she learned to cook, because even though I cook, her recipes were quite different. She sheepishly grinned and said "TV." I don't care - she has become an acomplished cook and hostess at a relatively young age. She also is experienced with children and has a good job. She is so lovely and warm and more at ease than I ever was cooking and entertaining. But she is fully egalitarian - what a sweetheart.

I had to spend Christmas Eve sewing another Christmas stocking for a guest. Its a myth that women cannot be fully womanly and equal at the same time.

I have nothing against home ec. courses, but it doesn't really seem that they are necessary in order to become accomplished in the domestic arts. Tatting anyone? ;-)

Suzanne McCarthy said...

PS Fortunately neither of us feel the pressure to cook every day, or even every Sunday, for a lot of other people. Fortunately the guys find their niches by becoming expert in making some admired dish or meal. But it can all be a drudgery under the wrong conditions.

Christiane said...

Hi REX RAY,

It's me, L's

This time, I've found some Irish lady singers behaving properly.
(It took a while to find this. :)

I hope you like it. I do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePTVypG9UVA&NR=1

Peace of Christ,
L's

believer333 said...

Wow! the acoustics in that place are incredible. They sounded like angels. :) thanks Christiane.

Bob Cleveland said...

Believer 333 and Mara:

I've suggested Peg might discontinue the practice .. some time back .. but she says she doesn't want to quit as long as she's physically able. She enjoys it (those are her words).

I also asked her to comment here, and say it for herself. She says she doesn't give a flip what you all think, and further added that she'd rather conform to Proverbs 31, the woman she believes God wants her to be, than what others think she ought to be doing. Or not doing.

We've been married 50 years, 9 months and 12 days. Any other questions?

Lydia said...

"I hear entirely too many people saying "We're going home for Christmas". Home is not where you GO, it's where you STAY, and I fear we greatly underestimate the long-term effects of losing that "home image"."

Bob, I think there is a misunderstanding about your comment. I am assuming Peg did not go to seminary to learn how to make a home?

Your comment above (and maybe this is a Southern misunderstanding) does not really define America and her history. We have always been a moving people..leaving family and forging ahead. Home is not always where we stay but where we ARE at any given time.

The nuclear family at some time breaks up when the kids (hopefully) grow up and make their own lives. They do go 'home' for Holidays. We have a bigger problem in America with kids who never grow up and move on!

The seminary cannot teach the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and love for one another. All the cooking and sewing classes in the world are not going to produce a mother that models Christ for her kids or her husband.

These women and their families would be much better served by them becoming theologians. A great book about this that makes my point even better is Carolyn Custis James' book: When Life and Beliefs Collide.

Women have got to stop the all encompassing focus on Martha Stewartism (And the other Martha of the Bible) and get into some deep study of the Word at the feet of their Savior. A day will come when they are going to need theology and making the best dinner is just not going to be enough.

believer333 said...

"I've suggested Peg might discontinue the practice .. some time back .. but she says she doesn't want to quit as long as she's physically able. She enjoys it (those are her words). "

Why would you think anyone here would want her to quit? It's wonderful that she enjoys doing that. Just don't expect others to do the same. :)

Bob Cleveland said...

Lydia,

I do believe there's misunderstanding, so I'll explain again and maybe I can get it right.

When we bought our first home, it was in Carmel, Indiana. Peg's folks lived in Lebanon and mine lived in Indianapolis. When she said one time she'd like to go home for Thanksgiving, I said we were already there .. our home was Carmel. "Going home" is when we go to our house, not someone else's.

So home is not someplace we go, it's where we stay.

Bob Cleveland said...

believer333,

Don't believe I mentioned anybody else should do that. That's their business.

Perhaps those enrolled in SWBTS' homemaking program do, which would indicate it's serving a purpose.

:)

Lydia, I'll stack Peg and her theology up against any other lady I know.

:)

-30-

Christiane said...

On the theme of 'home' . . . from
THE DEATH OF THE HIRED MAN
by Robert Frost:


""Warren," she said, "he has come home to die:
You needn't be afraid he'll leave you this time."

"Home," he mocked gently.

"Yes, what else but home?
It all depends on what you mean by home.
Of course he's nothing to us, any more
Than was the hound that came a stranger to us
Out of the woods, worn out upon the trail."

"Home is the place where, when you have to go there,
They have to take you in."

"I should have called it
Something you somehow haven't to deserve."



I love the way that last line evokes our heavenly home.
Love, L's

Mara Reid said...

Bob: "I've suggested Peg might discontinue the practice .. some time back .. but she says she doesn't want to quit as long as she's physically able. She enjoys it (those are her words)."

Nice that she's had that option.
Speaks well of you. And you need not trouble her to comment here. I take your word for it.
Too bad she has such a bad attitude towards us. She might like a few of us if she gave it a shot.
She wouldn't need to be afraid I'd try to negatively 'influence' her take Sunday off. I understand enjoying it. My mom is like that.
Yep, nice she's had that option. That's where the joy is, not being forced.
Not all women have had that option.

CB Scott said...

Bob,

I trust you have had a great Christmas Day.

It has certainly been a "trip" around this place here today. And looks to be another tomorrow. I want to thank you for hanging out with us this past Wednesday. That made things even more meaningful for us.

BTW, I have heard Peg's theology and life philosophy many times. And I know what a lady is in several different cultures around the globe. Peg would qualify as one in any of which I have spent time over the last four decades.

And as for her theology and life philosophy.........I'll just say it is my opinion that it far surpasses that of many who pass through these blog comment threads, both male and female and of any age or life style.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. She must have been extremely good at her profession, especially one that is usually a "man's" vocation. Otherwise why would her peers have kept trying to stop her from retiring?

Frankly, Bob it is my opinion that few people of either gender have been able to "pull" out of one life all the things Peg has. Come to think of it, that would be true of you also.

Your friend and Peg's secret admirer,

cb

believer333 said...

"And as for her theology and life philosophy.........I'll just say it is my opinion that it far surpasses that of many who pass through these blog comment threads, both male and female and of any age or life style."

I'm all for passing around compliments whenever the chance arises. However, it demeans the compliment to take pot shots at those you don't know in the process. Of the few women (and men) that I do know of somewhat, I would say that most everyone who takes the time to participate on these blogs, sharing their heart and intelligence in the process are gifted and talented individuals. You may not be as aware of it as you are of this nice lady Peg.

CB Scott said...

B333,

For two days you have taken "pot shots" at someone you know nothing of what so ever.

Think about it.

cb

Kevin M. Crowder said...

"For two days you have taken "pot shots" at someone you know nothing of what so ever."


TOTALLY! What a hypocrite!

B333, Repent, Recant, and Rucuse yourself from further sin. Call or email Dr. Dorothy Patterson and confess the sin which you have committed in the name of He who's birthday we celebrated today!


You are banned from the sacraments until further notice!!!

I brand thee of the brow with a capital "H"

believer333 said...

Hey CB, I've only given my opinion on what I know, on what is out there for everyone to see. You OTOH have made comments on all the men and women here on things you know nothing of.

With that said, I am still really disgusted with many of the things that Dr. Patterson (not Dorothy - I don't think I've commented on her at all) has done in the public eye....

As for your friend Peg, she sounds really nice..... as do many/most of the women who post here.

And frankly, I'm tired of talking so much about people instead of spiritual things.

And I've got to prepare for cookie baking tomorrow. Have a nice Christams day evening.... still only dinner time here. :)

CB Scott said...

B333,

Here is my comment:

"And as for her theology and life philosophy.........I'll just say it is my opinion that it far surpasses that of many who pass through these blog comment threads, both male and female and of any age or life style."

Notice how I used the word "opinion" and also notice how I constructed the following: "....these blog comment threads...."

"these blog comment threads" are in reference to many blogs and not just this one.

And my reference to your "pot shots" was not about Dorothy. It was about Paige. And you don't know him at all and we both know that to be true.

Now, I hope your baking comes out well. Mine did today and I have it to do again tomorrow.

Merry Christmas....All Twelve days of it. :-)

cb

believer333 said...

"I brand thee of the brow with a capital "H"
"


Hey Kevin, getting a little loosy, goosy, goofy, aren't we. :)

Is there is anyone here who has been perfect in word, action and deed all day on any one day (being honest, eh), .........

Rex Ray said...

Christiane,
Well, bless your pea-picking heart. (That’s country talk) Thanks for trying but I couldn’t understand the ‘Irish language’. Maybe if they had ‘captions.

Now my kind of singing is that old Baptist theme song – “I’ll Fly Away”, but it’s not in the song book anymore and it’s sure not going to be seen on our screens.


Believer 333,
You asked: “You consider the women half dressed because of bare shoulders?”

No. No. Lower. :)

I don’t understand your saying: “I took the training but did not do the work.”

Would that be like me? I paid for training, but my wife had ‘cabin fever’. A school teacher didn’t make enough for baby sitting, so she took the course and I ‘learned’ in the bathtub.

“We don’t swim alone.”

Hey! Being alone, you don’t worry about being shot with a spear gun, or drown by your buddy.

Jesus walked on Galilee, but I can brag I crawled on the bottom! Through stupidity in thinking four miles was one, at 65, I swam across that sea for three hours and eighteen minutes. I was more than thirsty.

Now my dream would be like Caleb at 85; and swim the English Channel. Now, don’t laugh – I’ve got two things going for me:

Not liking cold water; there’s Al Gore and Obama’s “Global Warming”, and my wife said at that age I might be crazy enough to try.

Believer 333, since you seem to be a Bible scholar and I’m already so far off topic, let me ask a question:

Was Peter’s speech (Acts 15:7-11) given to the “apostles and elders” (verse 6) or to the “multitude” (verse 12 KJ)?

To All,
Merry Christmas.

PS When I started this comment – all were fairly friendly. Now I start to post, and I feel like I’m in a combat zone.

Reminds me of some advice my father gave us: ‘Don’t wear your feelings on you sleeves.’

Christiane said...

Hi REX RAY,

Found it ! Here are three different versions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BPoMIQHwpo&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNXpMylnhcA&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tItWdrmsec&feature=related

LYRICS:
“Some bright morning when this life is over
I’ll fly away
To that home on God’s celestial shore
I’ll fly away
I’ll fly away oh glory
I’ll fly away (in the morning)
When I die hallelujah by and by
I’ll fly away
When the shadows of this life have gone
I’ll fly away
Like a bird from these prison walls I’ll fly
I’ll fly away
I’ll fly away oh glory
I’ll fly away (in the morning)
When I die hallelujah by and by
I’ll fly away
Oh how glad and happy when we meet
I’ll fly away
No more cold iron shackles on my feet
I’ll fly away
I’ll fly away oh glory
I’ll fly away (in the morning)
When I die hallelujah by and by
I’ll fly away
Just a few more weary days and then
I’ll fly away
To a land where joys will never end
I’ll fly away
I’ll fly away oh glory
I’ll fly away (in the morning)
When I die hallelujah by and by
I’ll fly away”



REX, if you want to hear some other versions, type ‘I’ll Fly Away youtube’ into Google and it will bring up LOTS of versions. Try ‘Jars of Clay’’s version, too.
Have a wonderful day.

Lydia said...

Gentlemen,

The topic is a SEMINARY teaching homemaking. That is the elephant in the Living Room. One commenter, many comments ago, nailed it when he said it was VOCATIONAL school stuff. He is right. Many have already pointed out that sewing clothes is not cost effective and one can turn on the tv to learn to cook. So, what is the REAL purpose of this program? I think we all know the answer to that and that is what we are debating.

And SWBTS has already made it clear they do not like women knowing Theology. They might end up trying to teach male students Hebrew.



"And you don't know him at all and we both know that to be true."

CB, Patterson has made sure he is a very public person. I did not have to know Clinton personally to know I disagreed with him. And of course, many people said he was a real nice guy. I am trying to figure out why that should make a difference to me based upon what I know about him that is fact?

Tom Parker said...

CB:

Are you the only one that really knows about PP? You sure come across that way.

He is not the saint that you and others from the CR period would have us believe.

BTW please let someone besides yourself who does not support PP be allowed to give their "OPINION"
about PP without attacking them everytime. My thanks in advance.

My suggestion would be for you to start a Blog and moderate your comments like so many bloggers are doing this day and time and keep out the negative thoughts and opinions about PP.

CB Scott said...

Tom,

I did not attack anyone. I did answer your question way back up this thread. A couple of others asked questions of what I said.

Did you even read my answer to you? I certainly did not attack you.

I will repost the answer to your original two questions of me:

"First I would like to say to you that I pray you and your family have a blessed time in the presence of God the Father as we all celebrate the birth of God the Son in the flesh.

Now to answer your two questions.

You ask/said:

"Am I to conclude that you are ok with this excess by PP and that money could not have been put to better uses and that you support the Homemaking degree?"

1. I am not in favor of excessive spending by anyone in SBC life including myself. And I have been guilty and I have repented.

2. Tom, I have spent 12 years of my life as a student in four different seminaries. I worked in the administration of 1 seminary for 10 years. My wife worked in the administration of 2 seminaries for a total of 12 years.

Based upon my experience with seminarians and their families I must, in all honesty, say to you that all six of our SBC seminaries desperately need to establish a homemaking and child rearing degree.

Tom, if you and I ever meet in person I will buy your lunch and tell you exactly why I believe Dr. Patterson has done a very good thing in establishing the homemaking degree at SWBTS. But be warned; It will take at least three hours of your time for me to give the whole story as to why I am so strongly convicted that the degree is a necessity in this present culture."

Tom Parker, I don't think that was an attack. I think it was an honest answer. I will let you be the judge.

cb

CB Scott said...

Lydia,

I commented on the degree above.

You can think what you please about Paige Patterson. I simply commented on what I know and also a few opinions I hold based upon what I know.

If you read my comments I think you would have to agree.

I hope you are also having a good Christmas.

cb

Lydia said...

Tom,

CB is a bit strange when it comes to PP. Here is Ben Cole talking:

http://sbcvoices.com/ben-cole-leaving-the-sbc/

"The facts, however, are these: For four years, I have planned an exit from Southern Baptist life, beginning with my pursuit of a doctoral degree at Baylor University. That exit was forestalled because of one phonecall — received past midnight from Alabama pastor C.B. Scott — that urged me to fight the good fight stirring up on account of a famously recalcitrant mission board trustee and his opposition to exclusionary policies governing the appointment of international missionaries. Once I listened to C.B., who made me promise not to allow the Baptist brouhaha to distract me from my academic pursuits, I launched a counter-offensive that has become, to at least some degree, notorious.

The objective was simple. Neutralize the influence of fundamentalist, landmarkist, legalistic theologies that trace their most recent incarnation to Paige Patterson and his graciously submissive wife, Dorothy. Patterson is a politically shrewd and quasi-cannibalistic junkyard dog. His wife is one part old lace and two parts arsenic. An invitation to high tea with the pair can result in a trusteeship or a tombstone."

So, it seems CB encouraged Ben to be point man but when it gets too hot, CB has plausible deniability.

CB has to ignore a lot of miserable history about Patterson to go around defending him now. But I am sure it is safer for him.

Tom Parker said...

Lydia:

You said--"CB has to ignore a lot of miserable history about Patterson to go around defending him now. But I am sure it is safer for him."

Lydia, sadly for many of the PP supporters they dare not cross him for they know what he is capable of. They have seen him ruin the lives of others and it is better someone else than themselves have their lives ruined. How sad?

Their will one day be an accounting for all of these secret deeds!!

believer333 said...

Rex Ray, thank you so much for the friendly banter. Reminds me that we are indeed all family in the kingdom of heaven. :)

When I said, “I took the training but did not do the work”, I was referring to training to be a Dive Master, but did not work in a dive shop afterwards. Dive Masters don't make much money, but the training is grueling and excellent knowledge.

"Through stupidity in thinking four miles was one, at 65, I swam across that sea for three hours and eighteen minutes. "

Yeeeesh! At least it was good exercise. That was even further than the swim in our Triathlon's. Good going Dude!

"Was Peter’s speech (Acts 15:7-11) given to the “apostles and elders” (verse 6) or to the “multitude” (verse 12 KJ)?"

My guess would be that more joined them as the apostles were only 12 and some of the apostles were elders. It does not seem accurate to call the twelve plus some elders a multitude. Good question.

Lydia said...

"Lydia, sadly for many of the PP supporters they dare not cross him for they know what he is capable of. They have seen him ruin the lives of others and it is better someone else than themselves have their lives ruined. How sad?"


Trust me, Tom. I KNOW how they operate.

believer333 said...

"Trust me, Tom. I KNOW how they operate."

How sad and also deplorable that a denomination is known for such.

Bob Cleveland said...

I have to ignore a lot of miserable history about me, too. Jesus showed me how, and I'm sure there are others who can identify with that fact.

He also shows us how to do the same for others.

CB, thank God you and I married above ourselves. I could not possibly describe how much the poorer I'd be, here such not the case.

All the recriminations WRT Dr. Patterson and I'm reminded of the 4th grader who was being yelled at by his dad, for bringing home a report card with a "D" on it. Dad finally said "What did you EXPECT me to say"? The boy answered:

"I hoped you'd notice the 5 "A's".

Tom Parker said...

Bob Cleveland:

I'm quite sure any honest report card of PP's impact on the SBC would not contain 5"a's."

PP does not get a pass for the harm he has and continues to inflict on the SBC.

Lydia said...

PP does not get a pass for the harm he has and continues to inflict on the SBC.

Sat Dec 26, 12:57:00 PM 2009

PP worries me less than ALL the people who have looked the other way or gone out of their way to protect him. They scare me more.

CB Scott said...

Lydia,

I spoke with Ben just yesterday. He may be dropping by my home today. Email me a number and I will have him call you and you can ask him anything you please about the past.

And Lydia, you may believe what you please, but safety has not been granted to me about anything. Seeking the safe position has not been on my agenda in the issues of the SBC.

Tom Parker, Did you read my comment to you at all? Tell me Tom, in my answers to you here how did I attack you?

cb

Lydia, all I have done is speak to what I know. I have only defended Paige when I knew better of what was being said. I have challenged his actions when I knew he was wrong.

Lydia said...

"I spoke with Ben just yesterday. He may be dropping by my home today. Email me a number and I will have him call you and you can ask him anything you please about the past."

Emailing you now.

CB Scott said...

Lydia,

Somehow I messed up my comment to you.

You are in error to say the following:

"So, it seems CB encouraged Ben to be point man but when it gets too hot, CB has plausible deniability.

CB has to ignore a lot of miserable history about Patterson to go around defending him now. But I am sure it is safer for him."

Lydia, all I have done is speak to what I know. I have only defended Paige when I knew better of what was being said. I have challenged his actions when I knew he was wrong.

A short history of events in the last five years will bear out that you are in error as to my positions.

But you can think what you want. But the truth is that I was standing up when no others would. Like I said, email me a number. I will ask Ben to call you.

I can be no more open than that. I am making you an honest offer. If you want to know the truth, we will give it to you.

cb

Lydia said...

CB, Based on just facts from over the years, PP needs to resign or be fired. Not be defended as some great man of God. (There are NO great men of God just depraved sinners saved by grace)

And that does NOT include all the shenanigans that many other leaders tried to bury about him to protect themselves.

Tom Parker said...

Lydia:

You said:"CB, Based on just facts from over the years, PP needs to resign or be fired. Not be defended as some great man of God. (There are NO great men of God just depraved sinners saved by grace)

And that does NOT include all the shenanigans that many other leaders tried to bury about him to protect themselves."

When the SBC totally falls apart and it is moving swiftly that way and the Big Boys fall, then maybe the truth will come out.

Right now there is too much at stake for these men to ever turn against the Big Boys of which PP is Big Boy #1.

Wade Burleson said...

Lydia,

Your comment at 11:28 a.m. in this section has to be one of the most astute, acumen filled, and pointedly insightful comments that I've read in the history of this blog.


Wade

CB Scott said...

Wade,

What is so insightful about her comment Wade? I would really like to know.

cb

Jonquil said...

I'm speaking as an outsider rather than a frequent commenter. Lydia identified that the issue was *not* whether young pastors' wives should learn to cook, clean, ... hold household, but whether a seminary was the appropriate place for those skills to be taught.

There are already, in society, multiple institutions -- and, as Lydia said, television shows -- that will teach any person who wants them housekeeping and childrearing skills. A seminary doesn't have the charism to teach those skills, any more than it has the charism to teach medicine.

Tom Parker said...

CP funds should not be used to teach "Homemaking". It is just that simple.

Christiane said...

Does the institution of a Baptist seminary 'need' to be propped up by the founding of a house for 'instructing women in the finer home-making arts'?

Has the subjugation of women become such a prominent 'trophy' that it needs to be displayed so in its own building on campus?

I have a friend who is a minister's wife, a teacher, and a mother of two sons. She has taken training with her husband in receiving phone calls from people who are in some kind of difficulty and who are reaching out to someone they trust as a contact for help.

I am blessed to have her for a friend. She is a blessing to her students, to her family, and to anyone who approaches her seeking a compassionate Christian heart to hear their need. Does she sew?
I don't know. Can she prepare elegant meals? I don't know.
Can she listen to a hurting, troubled person and connect them with the help they seek ?
Absolutely.

John Fariss said...

I am southern, from the tips of my toes to the crown of my head. I am from Alabama, and BTW Bob, Talladega County is home.

My grandparents made it their home, and they had to move to get there. My maternal grandparents went there in the 30s to find work--Grandpaw Smith lost his job on the railroad in the Depression, and they eacked out a living for almost two years on him possum hunting, running a trot line, and a little garden. They they left family and friends because he got a job at a model company mill, the Bemis Brothers Bag Plant, in Bemiston, near Talladega, and what with company provided houses (with furnaces), electricity, and other amenities, they had it better that they ever did before--even though they had to leave parents and family behind. Granddaddy Fariss moved there thirty years earlier--he was in the sawmill business, and that was when they moved the mills to be as close to the timber as possible. After ten or so years, he lost the mill in a fire, and almost lost his life too. It produced a significant change in his outlook, so he bought the land he had been cutting from and stayed there farming another 50 years. Granny has been heard to say that had she known he was going to stay in Alabama, she would have never married him, but I'm not so sure. Still, before she married she was a nurse in Atlanta, taking care of her elderly and widowed mother; after she married, she was a homemaker. But she worked: she cooked for the sawmill crew, she worked a garden and canned, she kept chickens and cows and sold eggs and milk, she helped pick and sell scupernongs, washed clothes by boiling them and scrubbing on a washboard, and did it from a house that was only partially sealed, heated (such as it was) by wood, got her water from a spring a couple of hundred yards down a hollow, and did it all without gas, gasolene, electricity, or a telephone.

Then there was Mamma. She had culture shock going from Bemiston to the Fariss farm, but she went. I have heard her say how much she would like to have joined the WACs during WWII, but could not because she was married. We got electricity in the late 50s, and a telephone sometime in the mid 60s--not that the power was reliable, and the phone was on an 8 party line. Before and during WWII, Mamma worked in cotton mills, and after it, until I was born, at a sewing plant. And we barely made ends meet.

I say all this to remind folks that all was not rosy in the earlier generations, not every family (Southern or otherwise) could have a June Cleaver-type mom, not everyone did or could stay where family was at, and women, even if not largely employed in offices and at careers, still worked hard and contributed substantially to families financiually. Even the virtuous woman of Proverbs 31 did that, and plenty of others worked in cottage industry, from Old Testament times right up to and through WWII.

And me? Well, I could have stayed in Talladega County. I could have been a policeman there like Daddy (after about 1950, when he realized he could not make a living off the family farm), and put up with the politics of small town police departments; or I could have become a teacher (which I almost did), and maybe have gotten a teaching job at a local high school there, and stayed put, or failing that, went to work for the Georgia-Pacific plant there or the Kimberly-Clark paper mill 30 miles away. Or I could have been obedient to God, went to seminary, and followed His call, even though it has led me further and further away from what I will always regard as home.

So before anyone talks glibly about "home" being where you stay rather than somewhere you go, think about economic realities. And think about being obedient to God, who sometimes--oftentimes--moved us out of our comnfort zones.

John

Ron said...

I have not known PP as well as CB and Ben Cole but I have observed has actions and been impacted by his political activities since 1970 when he was pastor of First Baptist Church in Fayetteville, AR. His methods have not changed in 40 years. He begins to advance himself by looking for ways to undermine others and then begins a campaign to discredit anyone he sees as being in his way.

Since we are quoting Ben Cole, here are two quotes by Ben from a few years ago. CB should be able to verify the veracity of these quotes.

“For several years I was a part of a daily conversation in Wake Forest, NC, that sought to undermine Jerry Rankin's leadership at the IMB. I genuinely believed at the time that Rankin was a detriment to SBC missions. I now know that his chief detractors are a much greater threat. Other men, who worked diligently to put IMB employees out of work were promoted to positions of greater responsibility at SBC seminaries.”

“I refused to go on payroll at Southwestern Seminary in February of 2004 when a job was offered to me. The proposed job was to listen to audio-recordings of Jerry Rankin and to cull them for suspicious charismatic theology. I flatly rejected the offer, and went on with my ministry. Since that time, I have only told a handful of people about the job offer. Today, I don't care who knows it.”

Therefore, according to Ben Cole, who was Paige’s disciple and was mentored by Paige, while at SEBTS Patterson oversaw a campaign to undermine the leadership of another SBC entity. He also has used CP funds to pay people to work for seminaries for the purpose of carrying out Conservative Resurgence political activity and reward political operatives. Jerry Rankin and the IMB are not the only cases for which this is true. It is has been his entire history in the SBC. It would seem natural to conclude that if Ben Cole’s testimony is true and from observing the history of Patterson’s advancement that Patterson is a man who without the CR could never reach leadership positions based on his own academic achievement or leadership ability. It has been only by tearing down others that he could advance.

Those of you who know Patterson are welcome to give evidence where Ben Cole’s testimony is wrong and where these conclusions are wrong.

If there had been a hint of this kind of activity on the part of Keith Parks or Russell Dilday, the cries of righteous indignation on the part of CR supporters would have been deafening. But because it is Patterson, we only hear silence. Why??

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