"I went to Jerusalem to become acquainted (Gk. istoria) with Cephas" - Paul's words from Galatians 1:18.

Why Every Southern Baptist Should Know and Care About a Woman Named Pamela Wynona Schoen

The Star Fish Insurance Agency in Gulf Shores, Alabama, pictured here, is owned by a former Southern Baptist woman named Pamela Wynona Schoen. I first introduced readers to Pamela in December of 2008, explaining that she had hired, in good faith, a former Southern Baptist missionary named Gray Harvey to be her bookkeeper. Pamela had grown up in a family who regularly gave money to Southern Baptist causes (Lottie Moon, Cooperative Program, etc...). What could be better but to have one of those missionaries as an employee at her office, right?

Wrong. Gray Harvey began to write fraudulent insurance policies on multi-million dollar condominiums and homes in Gulf Shores, Alabama without Pamela Schoen's knowledge. Harvey scammed dozens and dozens of policy holders out of hundreds of thousands of dollars. He wrote what looked like legitimate policies on fake Lloyds of London forms, underbid competitors, and pocketed the premiums--all without his boss's knowledge. Harvey was eventually arrested by federal authorities, and will soon face prosecution by the United States attorney for bank fraud, wire fraud, and mail fraud in stealing all that money from unsuspecting people. Pamela Schoen's lawyer, Richard Lively, recently told the Alabama insurance regulators that his client, was the worst victim of all, suggesting that Benton Gray Harvey may have poisoned Schoen to keep her away from Starfish Insurance Agency as the scam peaked in the summer of 2008.

What makes this story so sad, and why every Southern Baptist should remember Pamela Wynona Schoen, is because Gray Harvey had previously stolen hundreds of thousands of dollars from the Southern Baptist Convention's International Mission Board--but IMB executives and trustees did not wish to criminally prosecute him. The IMB had their reasons for not wanting the authorities to press charges against Gray Harvey in 2004. But, in my opinion, the unwillingness of SBC officials to see Gray Harvey prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law directly led to Pamela Wynona Schoen's legal, financial and physical problems. Pamela's life, as she once knew it, has been ruined. Had Gray Harvey had his rear sitting in jail, or at least had it been made public that Gray Harvey was a professional thief, he would have never been hired by Pamela Wynona Schoen and been in a position to defraud her and others in his Alabama scam. When a thief changes his environment by moving from one state to another, nothing in the evil nature of that thief changes. As the old-timers used to say, "Unless there is a change in the atmosphere, what thaws in the sun will once again freeze in the shade."

One year ago, in the fall of 2008, after I visited with Pamela Wynona Schoen's very emotional mother over the phone, I made a vow. I promised myself that if I ever came across another individual who exhibited the gall to deceitfully and intentionally steal money from Southern Baptists, I would do everything within my power to ensure that federal authorities prosecute to the fullest extent of the law--regardless of the desires of SBC leaders, whomever they may be, who might wish the problem to go away lest further "embarrassment" come to Southern Baptists. I call it my "Pamela Promise."

And I aim to fulfill it.

In His Grace,

Wade Burleson

67 comments:

Jack said...

So does this mean you are getting ready to involve yourself in the ValleyGate scandal in the BGCT?

: )

Jack

Wade Burleson said...

So does this mean, Jack, that you believe somebody stole money from Southern Baptists in Valley Gate?

Welcome back.

:)

Jack said...

I have no idea Wade, that kind of stuff is your territory...I know David Montoya certainly believes so...I was just being annoying!

and I am not back

just visiting

love ya

Jack

Rex Ray said...

Wade,
Good for you.

My father had a statement he would “hit sin between the eyes every time it stuck its ugly head up.” (It got him in a lot of ‘trouble’.)

You asked Jack if he believe somebody stole money from the BGCT and he said someone else did.

I’d like to include me in on that deal, and I believe thousands of others. When fake churches on paper only; received over a million dollars from the BGCT, I’d call that STEALING.

To add insult to injury, when the BGCT convention wanted to prosecute, LEADERS said they would decide.

You see, at least one was a poor pastor that converted to a rich lifestyle, but ‘we’ can’t touch God’s anointed can we???

My father said it was OK to have a soft heart as long as you didn’t have a soft head to go with it.

Bill said...

The harvest of the seed returns!!! It is unconscienable to me that the Power Brokers of the SBC turn their heads on such wickedness.

Those that allowed this man to escape prosecution should be condemned publicly and harshly, and then removed from any official office of power (both presently and for the future--like they will allow that to happen to one another). But, we all know that the power brokers harbor one another, brush issues such as this under the table and cover for one another like Los Angeles Gangsters. God will rightly judge those who allow these things to happen by their silence.

Let us all pray for this lady and all that has been done to her. May God save us all from such deception; and may God richly bless and shine forth His grace and goodness upon His people.

Grace to all

Bill

romans 5:1

Paul Burleson said...

Wade,

I know next to nothing about the particular situations which are being mentioned here but...I do know that the biblical thing to do when crimes have been committed is to bring them before the courts of law for judicature. In fact... 1 Peter 2:12-14 shows this is the will of God for such things.

If I know of a crime that has been committed and I say nothing, or worse, try to cover up what has been done because of fear of what someone will think, I'm guilty of a crime myself and my guilt is before the court of God's Word.

If it is right and good for Acorn to be brought to justice, and it is, it cannot be wrong for the situations I hear mentioned in this post and comment stream to be brought to the light of justice just because professing christians are involved. Let the courts have their say as to violations of the law in each situation.

1 Peter 2:12 specifically says our way of life is to be one of honesty in order for our life to glorify God. My hope is honesty will prevail in all of us as christians and justice will be done in any case of violated State or Federal laws mentioned here.

More power to you.

Dad

Christy said...

and what is your promise to the thief? only justice? all sinners need to be confronted and punished and make restitution where needed. but they also need those brave souls to walk along side them, love them despite of their sins, and show them the right road. we can't just throw people in jail and forget about them and focus all our grace and love on the victims. yes they need to be cared for. there is no exception policy or if you get caught in a criminal act clause in love your neighbor.

Paul Burleson said...

Christy,

I'm assuming your reference is to my comment so I will respond. If not, please accept my response as just an aside.

I don't think one [justice when laws have been broken 1 Peter 2:13] is mutually exclusive of the other. [Love and grace on my part toward the offender.]

The first is the responsibility of the courts and I'm to do my part in that process if I can. The second is my responsibility to the offender if and when a relationship is/can be established. Whether such a relationship is established or not it is to be might heart toward him/her.

To me forgiveness and love do not negate the seeds of dishonesty and legal violations sown by someone that will reap a harvest legally when honesty prevails.

This balance and APPARENT oxymoron always was the tightrope we walked with our kids as we raised them to be law-abiding citizens as Christians.

We had to practice this when our oldest daughter shop-lifted an item as a very young teenager and have to face the consequences though she was fearful of what her church members I pastored would think/say. We convinced her that was not the issue that was primary. She agreed and did things right. These issues, while greater in volume of things stolen, are to be based on the same principle. Honesty.

It is, it seems to me, the tightrope we are always to walk as citizens of another country as well as citizens of this one.

I know you know this. I'm just trying to show I do too.

Thy Peace said...

Interesting post. I was worried Pastor Wade would stop writing posts that defend the underdog or the persecuted.

A similar contrast, though in the sphere of sexual abuse is this post:

Stop Baptist Predators [Christa Brown] > Hollywood and Baptistland.
On the October 3rd broadcast of “Richard Land Live,” the Southern Baptist Convention’s top-dog ethicist had a lot to say about how some Hollywood celebrities are urging leniency for film director Roman Polanski, who was convicted on child sex charges 30 years ago.

Paul Burleson said...

I don't know how "in my" became "might" but it did. Sorry.

Bob Cleveland said...

Wade,

For the record, Mrs. Schoen has had to pay a $36,000 fine, and has also repaid, to her customers, some $450,000 in fraudulent premiums Mr. Harvey took from them. Add that to the probable $200,000 directly embezzled from the agency, and one gets a sense of the magnitude of the crime.

At the hands of an ex-SBC employee that nobody apparently wanted to "out".

As an SBC'er, I'd be really reluctant to throw stones at the Catholic Church for not "outing" all those offending priests, unless I'm just as hard on the SBC, over this mess.

William said...

I join you in calling for such cases to be prosecuted fully, wherever such criminal activity occurs and in spite of whomever it touches.

Lydia said...

and what is your promise to the thief? only justice? all sinners need to be confronted and punished and make restitution where needed. but they also need those brave souls to walk along side them, love them despite of their sins, and show them the right road. we can't just throw people in jail and forget about them and focus all our grace and love on the victims. yes they need to be cared for. there is no exception policy or if you get caught in a criminal act clause in love your neighbor.

Wed Oct 07, 09:43:00 AM 2009

Christy, Why would you assume that abiding by the civil and criminal laws of this land means to throw someone in jail and forget about them?

Was Paul loving his neighbor when he advised the Corinthian church to throw the guy out of the Body in chapter 5? He said they should do this so he could be saved. It was the loving thing to do to him and for the Body. What do you make of that?

Just as an illustration of we can sometimes appear to the world, I will tell you about running into an old friend of mine from college who is now a judge. He talked about the Christians who pack the courtroom when zoning and other violations come up about strip clubs/porn businesses. He understood that they were trying to put them out of business and rightly so.

But what he could not understand is when certain sexual molesters or pedophiles got caught, Christians would come and beg for leniency in sentencing. Even giving character references and writing letters.

He made a good point when he asked me if he should be lenient in sentencing because a Muslim or Jew came with character witnesses. He wondered if some of these might not be false converts. He was also curious as to why claiming to be a Christian meant one should serve a lesser sentence for a crime.

But what does it say about us when we refuse to even report embezzelers and sexual predators? It says we do not care about the future victims nor the eternal life of the criminal.

John Daly said...

It truly is beyond my comprehension how doing the right thing is even debatable, let alone left undone. Will we not have to answer for omission AND commission at the Judgment Seat of Christ…I think so.

RM said...

Wade,

I thought you took a vow not to get involved in Baptist politics?

Wade Burleson said...

RM,

When you can explain how seeking to prevent people from being defrauded of hundreds of thousands of dollars from Southern Baptist criminals is "politics" and not justice, then your apparant (though anonymous) concern regardomg my integrity will be duly noted.

Until you recomment, defending your strange opinion that my post is about "politics," I would like for you to consider that even if it were, you are called to love a person (me) who, in your mind, has broken his vow.

But even then, I conclude by reminding you I don't write to please RM (whomever thou mayest be), but Someone else.

:)

Blessings,

Wade

Bill said...

Wade,

I thought you took a vow not to get involved in Baptist politics?

^^^^

Comments by RM)like that are exactly the type that the Power mongers make. They want noone looking into the inner workings of SBC Life and their mantra is ALWAYS--"TRUST US" or better yet "If you were a good SBCer you would Trust us. Don't you love Jesus?"

They always want to deflect the real issues with trivialities.

They have no real interest in exposing light on anything within SBC Life--it's all hush hush, swear this allegiance to this committee, let's have a spokesman for the committee and they are to do all of the speaking for everyone else.

Sadly, it is all a big game.


Signed

Bill
SBCer for 26 yrs now

Paul Burleson said...

Political? Moral, ethical, relational, even theological, but political? I'm not sure but what this is a key to understanding what is tragically wrong with our country today. Everything thing is seen as a political thing.

jasonk said...

I think RM, whomever he mayest be :), knows that this post was not about SBC politics. He KNOWS it, but wanted so bad for it to turn into a political post, that he just couldn't help himself. I'll bet he thought, "maybe if I SAY it is a political post, people will begin to THINK it is, and then I can stick it to Wade." That's what it seems like to me, anyway.
I appreciate the post, and hope that we soon learn our lesson about sweeping things under the rug.

greg.w.h said...

Paul Burleson wrote:

Political? Moral, ethical, relational, even theological, but political? I'm not sure but what this is a key to understanding what is tragically wrong with our country today. Everything thing is seen as a political thing.

I think one of the unfortunate results of the American experiment is that the typical person translates the concept of "democracy" and "democratic institutions" into a framework where they are willing to do anything to get their own way or at least the thought that they OUGHT to get their own way.

If that is true, then every political endeavor has a healthy amount of narcissism in it. And once you recognize that, it becomes easy to project it onto others. So all politics are seen by the typical person as devolving directly into vanity and one getting one's own way.

Darn it...but the writer of Ecclesiastes already addressed this problem!! Isn't there anything new under the sun???

Greg Harvey

Jon L. Estes said...

I made a vow. I promised myself that if I ever came across another individual who exhibited the gall to deceitfully and intentionally steal money from Southern Baptists, I would do everything within my power to ensure that federal authorities prosecute to the fullest extent of the law--regardless of the desires of SBC leaders, whomever they may be, who might wish the problem to go away lest further "embarrassment" come to Southern Baptists. I call it my "Pamela Promise."

Would that include a promise to ensure that SBC missionaries who steal from the very people they are supposed to be serving for Christ will be brought to the public forum for prosecution?

Trustees who turn their back on such behavior are just as guilty. But then I guess it is just another person who could be hired to do their evils deeds. Will there be a "_________ Promise" made too late?

cynosure said...

Wade, I have the greatest of sympathy for Pamela,those con artists are sure slick. However you seem prone to lay most of the blame on the SBC an organization that I intrepreted from your blog that you love in a strange way. In these days one has almost at their fingertips the ability to do background checks to help guard against frauds. Maybe he did not have a record since he was never prosecuted but seems he must have filled out an application for the position of agent. Did he give the SBC as a previous employer? Did he have references? Did she check either? Good O' boy's can certainly lay a hurt on you. I have no doubt that Pamela has said many times since this unfortunate incident, "If only I would have.............!
Kudos to you for your Pamela Promise I hope you nail many of those bums.
Jim Sadler

Wade Burleson said...

Jim,

Any "Google" of Gray Harvey prior to 2008 would have given no indication of his embezzlement from the IMB. The matter was 'sealed' (i.e. "secret").

Only if there are charges filed would a matter become a part of the public record.

Whether or not Pamela called the IMB for a "reference" on Gray Harvey is something you will have to ask her about. It is debatable whether or not she would have been told the truth because of the oath of secrecy the trustees took in this matter.

I became an IMB trustee three months after the Gray Harvey affair went before the board behind closed doors in a meeting in the panhandle of Texas.

In His Grace,

Wade

Jon L. Estes said...

The decision to keep such illegal activities secret is flat out wrong and those who make such a decision are not worthy of leadership in our SBC entities.

Lydia said...

"Did he give the SBC as a previous employer? Did he have references? Did she check either? "

What makes you think they would give him a bad reference? They did not want it to get out in a big way.

This happens all the time. As a matter of fact, if you read Christa Brown's blog you would see that pervert church staffers just go from church to church until some brave soul finally presses charges. But the wake of victims is vast.

I could tell you at least 5 or 6 stories like this myself. Everything from adulterous pastors going to another church in town with no bad reference given to church employees cohabitating who simply go to another church with no bad reference. All within the SBC.

What you do not understand is that it is all about image or 'branding'. We must protect the 'brand' at all costs.

This is another reason why pressing charges is so very important. Even if it for the protection of others.

RM said...

Wade,

I never thought my simply asking you about blogging about politics was going to create such a stir. I was asking a question is all.....

I live in Texas and know more about this situation than most of you and I can assure you that it has a lot to do with politics and power and money. Personally, I agree with you about the legalities of what is happening but there's a whole lot more than meets the eye. There is a struggle for the power and control of the BGCT and it goes to the root of the problem.

I realize you are championing the cause of legality but I thought we weren't going to talk about Baptist politics any longer. I do however happen to enjoy talking about Baptist politics so I'm glad you are blogging on this subject.

I apologize if I offended you or questioned your integrity. That was never my intent since I am a regular reader and supporter of your blog.

Wade Burleson said...

RM,

No offense.

I hope you have been made aware by the comments of others that you seemingly see everything through a filter of politics.

To the detriment of genuine discussion of real issues.

Bill said...

I am sure he ran away never to return a long time ago. People like that never really have any substance to themselves, nor do they offer anything in any discussion.

Truly sad really.

Thy Peace said...

I searched this blog for the word "promise" and I found these two promises (I might have missed others, especially if they do not contain the keyword "promise"):
----------------------------------------------------------------------
One year ago, in the fall of 2008, after I visited with Pamela Wynona Schoen's very emotional mother over the phone, I made a vow. I promised myself that if I ever came across another individual who exhibited the gall to deceitfully and intentionally steal money from Southern Baptists, I would do everything within my power to ensure that federal authorities prosecute to the fullest extent of the law--regardless of the desires of SBC leaders, whomever they may be, who might wish the problem to go away lest further "embarrassment" come to Southern Baptists. I call it my "Pamela Promise."

And I aim to fulfill it

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank God Dwight McKissic Is a Southern Baptist [12-06-2006].
I have enjoyed writing this post, and yes, it is a little stronger than my usual template - intentionally - because I made a solemn promise to God that if I ever came across a leader in the Southern Baptist Convention that I felt was being mistreated, marginalized, or falsely accused, I would not sit by quietly and let it happen. The words have flown from my fingers easily because I now know Dwight. It's much easier for a Christian to sleep at night when he writes or speaks about a man that he takes the time to get to know personally. If I saw problems that I felt needed to be addressed with Pastor Dwight - I would not use the internet - I would talk to him personally.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, I found this post that is relevant to this post:

Warning: This Post Is Not for the Faint of Heart [03-20-2008].
And yet we Southern Baptist pastors are doing nothing to correct the problem or help our wounded. We spend more time defending 'ourselves' against perceived attacks than we do helping those who have actually had their lives turned upside-down. We are arrogant, self-absorbed men who are more concerned about what people think of us than we are about helping our own people who have been abused and discarded like oily, dirty rags. And, frankly, I'm tired of it.

No more Mr. Nice Guy. I will be kind, tender and helpful - in very concrete ways - to those who have been abused and mistreated in our Convention. But I will not put up with pastors, associate pastors or denominational leaders who are spiritual pinheads. If you are a pastor and you think you are under attack because you are being 'misquoted' or cry crocodile tears because you are being 'mischaracterized,' then join me in forsaking the Country Club of Self-Absorption and get out in the real world and help somebody who has actually been harmed
.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thy Peace said...

As a contrast, I have this from a speech made by Richard Land:
The Hollywood community has lived in its own sexual cesspool so long that it no longer has any understanding of the enormity of the crimes that Roman Polanski committed.

Maybe we have been misjudging these Hollywood producers and directors. . . . Maybe they're just reflecting their own sexual paganism. Maybe they think this is normal. . . .

What this has revealed is the total demagnetization of the moral compass of the Hollywood elite. . . .

How can liberals defend such heinous actions? How can they simply look the other way . . . . For one, they believe the pervert . . . . He says that the encounter was consensual. Just for the sake of argument for a moment, let's say he is telling the truth. . . the act was still illegal. . . . But many liberals scoff at age of consent laws . . . . Let's remember that the next time some liberal spouts off about some program designed to protect children. . . .

These people are moral pygmies. . . .

Just because a person is a talented artist doesn't mean they have any sense whatsoever. . . .

Why did so many of Mr. Polanski's artistic peers rush to defend him? …. I think it has more to do with the rich and famous having lots of skeletons in their own closets, and they want a bypass for artists. . .
.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Now I ask, Who are truly moral pygmies?

RM said...

I do admit that I see most everything through the filter of politics but then I live in Texas and that's the Baptist way in Texas. Maybe its different in Oklahoma.

Jeff said...

Hollywood, and those who want to make the middle class go broke by forcing a flaw universal health care system. Richard Land is a great America, a greater Southern Baptist. Proud to call him a fellow baptist.

Lydia said...

How can Land be so incensed and vocal about Roman Pulanski when he did not speak out about Dr. Financial Gaines keeping a pedophile minister of prayer on staff?(Until it became public knowledge, of course)

That makes no sense and reeks of a double standard within the SBC.
He expects Hollywood to be more godly than our own SBC pastors?

Perhaps he should look the other way like he did with Gaines.

Jeff said...

Lydia, Prove he didn't speak out.

Christiane said...

Hi JEFF,

Rather than ask Lydia to prove the negative, you might want to offer proof that he did speak out and it is 'on record'.

Lydia has made her point.
Now you have an opportunity to make yours.

Love, L's

Lydia said...

Lydia, Prove he didn't speak out.

Thu Oct 08, 11:37:00 AM 2009

Prove that he did. Publicly as he is doing about Pulanski.

Bill said...

Steve Gaines spoke out AFTER it became public and the voice sounded was NOT NEAR loud enough when he did speak.

Bill

Jeff said...

I'm not the one being critical of Dr. Land. There is no burden of proof on me. Just because you don't like someone, or their theological position is no reason to make claims. WE do not know all the story or all the things that Dr. Land has done. Lydia and others come across like they have all the answers, and know everything people should do and how they should do.

Thy Peace said...

In the similar vein as this post is this:

Baseline Scenario [Simon Johnson & James Kwak] > Too Politically Connected To Fail In Any Crisis.
Over the past 30 years Wall Street captured the thinking of official Washington, persuading policymakers on both sides of the aisle not to regulate (derivatives), to deregulate (Gramm-Leach-Bliley), not enforce existing safety and soundness regulations (VaR), and to stand idly by while millions of consumers were misled into life-ruining financial decisions (Alan Greenspan).

This was pervasive cultural capture or, to be blunter, mind control. But when the crisis broke it was not enough. Having powerful people generally on your side is not what you need when all hell breaks loose in financial markets. Official decisions will be made fast, under great pressure, and by a small group of people standing up in the Oval Office.

If you run a big troubled bank, you need a man on the inside; someone who will take your calls late at night and rely on you for on the ground knowledge. Preferably, this person should have little first-hand experience of the markets (it was hard to deceive JP Morgan and Benjamin Strong when they were deciding whom to save in 1907) and only a limited range of other contacts who could dispute your account of what is really needed.

Goldman Sachs, JPMorgan, and Citigroup, we learn today, have such a person: Tim Geithner, Secretary of the Treasury.

We already knew, from the NYT, that most of Geithner's contacts during 2007 and 2008 were with a limited subset of the financial sector; primarily the big Wall Street players who were close to the New York Fed (including on its board). And the announcement of his appointment was widely regarded as very good news for those specific firms.

But Geithner himself has always insisted that his policies are intended to help the entire financial system and thus the whole economy.

"SECRETARY TIMOTHY GEITHNER: I've been in public service all my life. I've spent all my life working in government on ways to make our financial system stronger, better economic policy for this country. That's the only thing I've ever done. And I would never do anything and be part of any policy that's designed to benefit some piece of our financial system. The only thing that we care about and the only obligation I have is try to make sure this financial system is doing a better job of meeting the needs of businesses and families across the country."
Interview on Lehrer NewsHour, May 8, 2009.

Geithner's defenders insist that his specific contacts while President of the NY Fed were a function of that position; "he was only doing his job".

Lydia said...

I'm not the one being critical of Dr. Land. There is no burden of proof on me. Just because you don't like someone, or their theological position is no reason to make claims. WE do not know all the story or all the things that Dr. Land has done. Lydia and others come across like they have all the answers, and know everything people should do and how they should do.

Thu Oct 08, 12:38:00 PM 2009

Jeff, You, as a pastor, do not know the answer to this? What does this have to do with liking Land?

What part of the story are we missing about Gaines and the pedophile minister of prayer he kept on staff?

Land is quite good at getting interviewed by reporters and even by our own Baptist Press. Have you found anywhere he spoke out publicly about Gaines and ignoring of scripture in our own SBC when it comes to pedophile ministers of prayer?

And you won't. Because there is a different and lower standard for SBC leaders than there is for Hollywood supporters of Pulanski. It is lower because we call ourselves Christians and do the same things.

Lydia said...

Where can we find Land's outrage and publicly speaking out on these matters within the SBC:

And where was Land’s outrage about a former California Southern Baptist Convention president who claimed he “erred on the side of grace” when he kept quiet about a deacon’s molestation of children in his church?

And where was Land’s outrage about a Southern Baptist children’s home director who urged no prison time for a prominent Southern Baptist pastor who had been convicted of sexually abusing teen church girls?

And where was Land’s outrage about a former Arkansas Baptist State Convention president who urged leniency and no prison time for a prominent Southern Baptist minister who sexually abused dozens of adolescent church-boys?

So, is Land's outrage against Hollywood or sexual molestation? Seems he does not mind it so much in the SBC.

He has the bully pulpit of the press to speak. Why not use it to clean up the SBC before attacking Hollywood for doing the same things we do? Because he would be out of a job.

Thy Peace said...

Pastor Wade had good things to say about Richard Land here:
Last week National Public Radio religion editor Barbara Bradley-Hagerty interviewed me for a piece she was doing entitled “Baptist Leaders Face Challenge On Women’s Roles.” She quotes me in the radio interview saying “Jesus treated women as equals” and that I believe “there is a quiet underground movement within the convention to rethink women's roles.” After my quote you can hear slow laughing from a deep voice in the background–-“Ha..Ha..Ha…” It was the Director of the Southern Baptist Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission in Washington D.C. He then tells the radio audience, “Burleson is dreaming.” I reflected on this the Director’s statement. He is a brilliant man, capable of playing three dimensional chess and formulating his rationale with cogent logic. He, like I, believes in an inerrant Bible. Upon reflection of his statement that I was dreaming, I came to the conclusion that he is right. “I have a dream . . .”.

The issue is not so much as paganism and excusing the behavior of Roman Polanski, but the same practice being followed inside SBC, especially as relates to sexual and monetary abuse.

Lydia said...

BTW: Is "Richard Land Live" paid for by the SBC or his own personal non profit?

Jeff said...

Lydia, Do you know that Land didn't contact BP? The reality is that you and others do not know all the facts. Most of what we know is via the media. I for one am glad that Land spoke out against Hollywood.

Jeff said...

It seems you want Hollywood to cont to pollute our children.

Jeff said...

We have always believe that women are equals. This is not new. What we don't believe is that God calls women to be pastors. God's calling does not have anything to do with being equal. Wade overstated if there is an underground movement, its more like a puddle.

Christiane said...

Maybe the Church needs to become a sanctuary again in the real sense of the word. Not for perpetrators, but for their victims.

"Keeping Secrets" is a screen which has failed to protect the most vulnerable. My own Church's scandals, the story of Christa Brown and her work on behalf of victims of abuse, the tragedy of the 'House of Prayer' on C Street with its code of silence, and the sheltering of a criminal by the IMB for the sake of 'protecting our own reputation',
all come from the same place:

we abondon the weak among us instead of surrounding them with our protection. And why? For some greater good? I think not.

Love protects.
The Love of God protects according the the NIV version of 1 Cor. 13:7

When we fail to protect the vulnerable among us from those we know are unable to control their dark impulses, then we fail to love.

It all comes down to that.

My daughter rescued a pit bull from a shelter. When she walks Roxy, a most gentle and loving dog, Roxy wears a muzzle. My daughter understands. We do the right thing. No one gets hurt.
No big dogs, no little dogs, no puppies, no big people, no little people, no children, no babies . . . .
They are cared for.
And Roxy? She, too, is cared for: protected from those inbred instincts in her nature that she might not be able to control if activated.

In promoting 'codes of silence', the Church is muzzleing the wrong dogs. (We have learned this in my own Church very painfully.)
When the trustees at the IMB were muzzled concerning the predator, they agreed not to protect the innocent from future harm. And, in her innocent unknowing, Pamela Schoen was poisoned by their bitter fruit.

In His Name, may mercy be shown to all among us who are vulnerable. Love, L's

Lydia said...

It seems you want Hollywood to cont to pollute our children.

Thu Oct 08, 01:24:00 PM 2009

I am more worried about them being defiled in church and those who defile them being protected by other leaders.

Shouldn't they at least be free of sexual molestation by church staffers in the SBC? And when they aren't shouldn't the ETHICS guy in the SBC speak out about it?

As to Hollywood, turn off your tv and stop making movies an entertainment. If done young enough, they will not be so inclined to get caught up in all the Hollywood stuff. My kid thinks Hannah Montana should pay her if she would ever wear her clothes line. And she has never seen HM on tv! But her stuff is everywhere.

And I did not need Richard Land to do any of that. And I doubt very seriously Richard Land is going to clean up Hollywood. How can he when he ignores the same heinous sin in his own camp?

"od's calling does not have anything to do with being equal. "

Separate but equal. We have hard that somewhere before, Massa. :o)

Jeff said...

Sorta like how the Catholics allow children
to be abused.

Lydia said...

Lydia, Do you know that Land didn't contact BP? The reality is that you and others do not know all the facts. Most of what we know is via the media.

Thu Oct 08, 01:23:00 PM 2009

So, what are the facts we do not know about the ETHICS guy in the SBC not speaking out about same crimes by our pastors and staffers as Roman Pulanski? Please, tell me.

When it comes to this stuff some people (usually a pastor) are always saying we do not know facts so we should not question.

This is just another way of silencing the hard questions folks do not want to face. They try and make it a sin to ask the hard questions with 'you don't know the facts'.

Well, why are the facts a secret?

Jeff said...

You are assuming there are secrets. This is my
point----assumptions.

It's just like people to say pastors are covering things
up.

Tom Parker said...

Jeff:

You said--"I for one am glad that Land spoke out against Hollywood."

Like it will make any difference.
He picked something so hard to speak out against. How much does he get paid to offer up such wisdom.?

Pastor Bob Farmer said...

Go Get 'em Wade! Why do I get the distinct feeling you've already got someone in mind. This burying of secrets has to be stopped. Years ago I was told of a youth pastor who had abused some children in the church. I was told by a youth pastor who had been one of his victims. The church quietly dismissed him never telling authorities. He went on to other churches. I eventually came across the man when I was in Bible college. Unfortunately he had never been arrested but had continued on abusing. However, the Lord Himself took care of the situation for the former youth pastor and child predator was broken and riddled with cancer. How many kids could have been saved heartache and humiliation if that first church would have stepped up and turned the guy over to the police. Considering all the lawsuits of the Catholic Church you would think all churches would be more careful. It is disturbing that the IMB has no sense. How many other skeletons are hidden. And though this is totally unrelated to the topic at hand,what the heck happened at NAMB with Geoff Hammond?

Lydia said...

"You are assuming there are secrets. This is my
point----assumptions."

No Jeff. YOU said we do not know all the facts. As if there is some knowledge that would make it ok for Land to critisize Hollywood for something that happens in the SBC.

I asked why we do not know all the 'facts' and if the facts are secret. And why would they be secret?

I do not think there are any secrets in this matter. Send me a link where Land is using his media platform, contacts, website or podcasts to speak out against the coddling of pervert ministers by our leaders. I will be the first to applaud him.

Christiane said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Christiane said...

Apologies to THY PEACE, who already gave us that site above.
Love, L's

Jeff said...

I know Wade has blog about this, but what has Wade done on his radio show and TV. I don't know---Wade have you use TV and Radio to condemn these people. Do you call them by name at your church? If not why?

Rex Ray said...

Thy Peace,
You quoted Wade as saying, “If you are a pastor and you think you are under attack because you are being ‘misquoted’ or cry crocodile tears because you are being ‘mischaracterized’ then join me in forsaking the Country Club of Self-Absorption and get out in the real world and help somebody who has actually been harmed.”

The “crocodile tears” reminded me of hands covering a face of tears while hearing a sermon:

“I CAN’T TAKE IT ANYMORE.”
“WHAT’S WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE? NO ONE HAS SAID AMEN!”

Maybe the stress was because attendance had dropped in about half, and he was no long authorized to spend money or approve of anyone else spending money.

Due to lack of information, the treasure resigned, but was talked into trying it again.

The secretary confided in a friend that told a friend etc that she couldn’t get information to give the treasure which got her ‘chewed on’ enough to leave the church.

So Wade, do you think anyone has been “harmed” enough for you to go to bat for, or would it be easier to kill the messenger? :)

Lydia said...

I know Wade has blog about this, but what has Wade done on his radio show and TV. I don't know---Wade have you use TV and Radio to condemn these people. Do you call them by name at your church? If not why?

Thu Oct 08, 10:51:00 PM 2009

You are changing the subject AGAIN, Jeff. Land's title has ETHICS in it. Are those ETHICS only for 'out there' or do they include the SBC?

I am just curious why he ignored the same thing within the SBC that he was accusing Hollywood of doing. It is that simple.

Jeff said...

Wade, Your wrong Lydia---read the blog post again. Wade has made a commitment to do something. He has blogged about it. He has assumed a position so now has he used TV and Radio to do something about it.

Tom Parker said...

Jeff:

Please give Lydia a break. You are just hounding her. But to her credit she will not back down to you.

Lydia said...

Jeff, now you are desperately trying to make this about Wade instead of Land. The topic was brought up about LAND.

He is the big ETHICS guy for the SBC. He is paid big money to represent our ETHICAL position. So why does he not speak out about the sexual perverts who are supported in the SBC but speaks out about Hollywood supporting Pulanski?

Changing the subject to attack someone else is not going to work with me. I am not one of your followers.

Since Jon brought it up in the next thread, it is now there, too.

Rex Ray said...

Wade,
Here is another person that suffered harm as Anne Graham Lotz explained in today’s Baptist Standard blog. This comment was made:

The Executed and the Executioner
written by Rex Ray, October 09, 2009

Is it strange that the Baptist Standard has the daughter of Billy Graham, and Morris Chapman available for comment? I mean – so close yet so far apart.

Her husband and Chapman were officers in the Baptist World Alliance until Morris, chairman of a committee to ‘investigate’ the BWA and recommended the SBC withdraw fellowship based on the BWA being ‘LIBERAL’ by misquoting a German professor.

When truth came out, Chapman pointed the finger that Paige Patterson wrote the report.

To this day, Patterson has never made a comment.

The last to speak before the SBC voted was Patterson accusing the BWA of being ‘gay friendly’.

With that ‘judgment’ the Lotz' church treatment was: “Their behavior was despicable”.

No wonder Anne Graham Lotz said, “Religion is, I think, one of the biggest hindrances to finding God.” She might have been thinking of “Beware of teachers of religion.” (Mark 12:38 Living)

Lotz said, “If they have been burned and hurt by God’s people…”

Yes, strange indeed to be on the same page of the Baptist Standard; the executed and the executioner.

Thy Peace said...

From reading blog posts, I conclude that sexual abuse victims, Whistle blowers and CR opponents were being treated similarly. Same tactics being used against them. Good time to brief up Lifton's techniques.

michelle said...

Wade, do you have any idea what is going on with the prosecution of Gray Harvey?

the wonderer said...

Has anyone bothered to read the ruling from the state commissioner?
I quote " the respondent (ms.schoen) was directly involved in at least two improper policy problems"........Are we to believe that she knew about 2 but not about the other 116 ????

Anonymous said...

Mr. Burleson, when Ms. Schoen was still working for another insurance agency, cashed my check for insurance on my home and failed to get me a policy. She did not return my many phone calls. It took months of stress over being uninsured, and contacting the insurance agencies main office to get another agent to finally write us a policy. I cannot tell you why Ms. Schoen did this, but I can tell you that it was years before she opened the Starfish agency.