"I went to Jerusalem to become acquainted (Gk. istoria) with Cephas" - Paul's words from Galatians 1:18.

Do Church People Truly Understand the Gospel?

Yesterday I played golf with several prominent businessmen within our community of Enid. I overhead a discussion between two of them regarding heaven and hell. The men who were conversing are respected community leaders, both hold positions of leadership within their churches--an Episcopalian and Disciples of Christ church respectively--and both men are in their late 50's.

One of the men was concerned that he was going to hell. The conversation, which had begun over a discussion of cheating in golf, contained some lighthearted joking in the beginning but soon turned quite serious. When asked why he was concerned he was going to hell, the man said, "Because I've done way too many bad things in my life." When it was suggested that God forgives, the answer was quick, "Yea, I know, but I think God gets quite tired of forgiving me again and again for the same sins. I know I would if I were God."

As I overheard the conversation I couldn't help but think to myself that both men, quite faithful in attending their respective churches, had little comprehension of imputed righteousness. The opportunity did not avail itself for me to explain imputed righteousness to these men yesterday, but they are definitely on my watch list for an opportunity to share the pure marrow of the gospel with them at some time in the future.

The Apostle Paul, after listing an extensive biographical history of religious superiority (Pharisee of the Pharisees, teacher of the law, etc...), said he considered all of his religious accomplishments "dung" for the sake of knowing Christ and "obtaining a righteousness that comes from God and is found by faith in Him." (Philippians 3:9). This particular verse I consider my life verse.

My conscience is filled with peace, even though I know my heart and life are filled with all kinds of sins (both known and unknown by me. I know that I am seen by God as perfectly "righteous" and holy because the goodness and obedience of Christ, His beloved Son, is credited to me. All of the blessings of God associated with "obedience" to His commands are mine because Christ's obedience is imputed (credited) to me via my faith in Christ. Selfishnesss, pride, envy, and a host of other sins are constantly being battled in my life--but I lose no sleep over whether or not God loves me, or whether or not I'm going to hell, or whether or not I will be blessed by God because my confidence is in the righteousness of Christ that is now mine because of my trust in Him.

John Wesley, founder of "Methodism" called imputed righteousness "imputed nonsense," believing that righteousness before God could only come through "methodical" and disciplined living. If imputed righteousness is true, say its detractors like Wesley, then God would never discipline His children, even though the author of Hebrews says He does (Heb. 12:6). Discipline us for what?

I would respond that God disciples us because sin, by its very nature, is destructive. God doesn't discipline us to make us righteous. He disciples us to help us truly enjoy the life He has already given us. If my pride, my selfiishness, my envy, etc... are not dealt with, it will eventually cause me great harm because of the nature of sin and what it does to life in general. But God loves me too much for that too happen, so He will consistentlyand successfully root out sin in my life. But, since God sees no sin in my life in terms of a judicial or condemning manner, His discipleship of me is not for "righteousness" sake, but for my enjoyment of life's sake. My sin has already been dealt with at the cross, being completely and totally imputed (credited) to Christ, who made a powerful and effectual atonement for my sins. In addition, His righteousness has been completely and totally credited to me. This, in my opinion, is THE GREAT EXCHANGE--an exchange that utterly transforms life when comprehended.

I rest in the knowledge that God only and always blesses me because of Christ's righteousness. God is building for me a home in heaven because of Christ's obedience. I never worry about how many times God has to "forgive" me because I am clothed with a perfect righteousness that comes from God and is found by faith in Jesus Christ. That, to me, is the beauty of the good news (gospel).

I sometimes wonder how many religious people truly understand the glorious gospel that sets the believer free.

In His Grace,


Wade

110 comments:

Bob Cleveland said...

I heard Charles Stanley talk about being more righteous, and I recall his statement that the light finally went on when he discovered God "didn't even want me to try..".

What He wants me to do is to obey. And inasmuch as He was my designer, engineer, creator, and my maintenance supervisor, and since Jesus established the term "abundant life", I figure He knows what it takes to have one. And, that He'd give us instructions on how to have one.

Thanks be to God, He did just that, and the abundant life happens to be what I want, too. Therein is my reason for my feeble attempts at obedience.

Good post.

Katie said...

Beautiful and so true. Thank you for the reminder.

RRR said...

"I sometimes wonder how many religious people truly understand the glorious gospel that sets the believer free."

To me, one of the most glaring pieces of evidence of the truth of the Gospel is witnessing the joy that comes to those who are freed as Wade mentions.

A national lady encountered our volunteer team in a resort city known for its seedy life and culture. The volunteers and national Christian partners led this lady to Christ that day.

She came to a fellowship dinner at the church that evening and the Christians were sharing the testimonies of their experiences during the day. This new babe in Christ asked if she could say something.

She stood and began to sob almost uncontrollably but some how got the words out. "I am a horrible, horrible person. I have done so many terrible things. Then today these people came to talk to me on the beach. They had never seen me before. They told me about the God that loves me and that if I trusted in His Son, Jesus, God would forgive me of all my sins! Now I am free!"

How can anything compare to that kind of freedom?

Strider said...

Who has been forgiven much, loves much. The lack of more evident love in the Church is a pretty good indication that not many understand they are forgiven. Thanks for the testimony from RRR.

Joe Blackmon said...

As I overheard the conversation I couldn't help but think to myself that both men, quite faithful in attending their respective churches, had little comprehension of imputed righteousness.

Well that should come as a shock to no one. Episcopalian doctrine is based on about as much Bible as Monte Python's "The Holy Grail" and Discples of Christ believe in baptismal regeneration. Of course these men aren't going to understand the gospel because their church doesn't teach the gospel.

Chris Johnson said...

o how sin filters good news into just news. Thank God for reminding us of the good.

good post...

thank you Wade.

blessings,
Chris

Wade Burleson said...

Joe,

That may be true.

I would propose, however, that the Episcopalian would be more apt to listen to a friend explain imputed righteousness than one who condemns his church for their liberalism.

Wade

Alan Paul said...

Key sentence I would focus on if I were talking with them:

"I know I would if I were God."

Most want to put themselves in the place of God in order to try to understand Him. Pretty arrogant when you think about it and it doesn't work. If He was like us, He would not be worthy of our worship.

When we have Peace with God, it's not the touchy feely type - it's not the calming type (though it is) it's the positional type. When we have that imputed righteousness, we are at peace with God - no longer at war against Him but that righteousness imputed.

Sinning is simply one part of the process of growth as we walk with Christ. Other parts include forgiveness (giving and accepting), learning, obedience, etc. SInning also allows us to continue to understand that we NEED Him to live in this fallen world and in this fallen body of ours.

Alan Paul said...

I meant "...by that righteousness imputed."

Jeff said...

Joe, I must disagree here Ryle's Expositions From The Gospels are worthy of any library.

I would say however that a church person might not understand the Gospel, but a Christian will get it.

CB Scott said...

Joe Blackmon,

I have not commented here in a long time and do not plan to make a habit of it in the future.

Wade and cb agree on very little and it is doubtful that will ever change. Yet, I will make the following observation:

Wade shared a story of two men. It seems that at least one of them was bearing his soul. It seems that Wade listened more than he talked. That is a good thing to do when men bear their souls before you.
(Especially is it good when the men bearing their souls are over 50 years old. The older a man is the less that happens in public)

Wade has now had time to reflect upon what he has heard. He has now formulated a plan to tell his own story of God's grace in his own life to one or both men. Obviously he is praying for that opportunity to arise in the timing of God.

Notice these words from his post:

"....they are definitely on my watch list for an opportunity to share the pure marrow of the gospel with them at some time in the future."

Joe, in this case, it does not matter if these guys are Episcopalian, Disciples of Christ or worshippers of Wooly Goats. What does matter is that Wade is seeking God's timing to share the gospel with these men.

I have prayed toward that end. I beseech you to do the same.

If this post reflects Wade's heart as to his intentions toward these men, there should be no controversy or negative response from another brother.

Joe, I generally admire your grit and steel over here as you stand for truth, the gospel and doctrinal purity.

But, today, I think we should pray that Wade does get the opportunity to share the gospel with a man that obviously God has revealed his lostness and sinful state before Him.

How else could a man bear his soul about his lostness if not for the fact that the Holy Spirit of God revealed it to him?

Let's pray that God uses Wade as a valid witness in this situation.

cb

Joe Blackmon said...

CB, I didn't mean that someone can't or shouldn't share the gospel with those folks. I just meant that it didn't surprise me that they didn't understand the gospel.

Jeff, I would agree with you about Ryle's works. I'm pretty sure, though, that if he saw what his church had devolved into he would not be happy.

Christiane said...

Dear Wade,

In 'listening' to the troubled man and in wanting to bring the Peace of the Lord to him, you have perhaps unknowingly entered into the tradition of the Franciscans.

I am very moved by your concern for this man. It is no accident that he spoke within your hearing.
And that it was YOU that heard him.
When God provides the opportunity, you will be able to help this man to find the Peace of the Lord. You will become an instrument of God, bringing hope to replace the man's despair, and light to dispel the darkness. Love, L's

Rex Ray said...

Wade,
Funny papers:
Boss: “How are your children?”
Secretary: “I don’t have any.”
“Maybe you’ve forgotten.”
“That’s not something I’d forget!”
“Maybe they’re hiding.”
“SAY YOU’RE WRONG! JUST ONCE, SAY YOUR’RE WRONG!”

I have a file with your post that has 351,383 words. You probably have said as many in comments also. But of all the words, I don’t believe you ever said you were WRONG about anything.

The closest I recall of you admitting what you said was wrong was when you wrote: “Sometimes words don’t convey the real meaning.” (or something close to that.) See, it wasn’t you that was wrong – it was the words.

Latest example where you could have admitted you were wrong was you wrote: “Rex…It would seem to me that in your analogy, the young man was doing the pushups for the benefit of the students to eat a donut.” Then you said about three more possibilities that didn’t make much sense to me.

I replied, “Since he was going to be a preacher, I’m sure he was not doing it for them to eat a donut, but was aiding his teacher in showing the ‘lost’ of his class that Jesus died for them whether they chose Jesus or not.”

When I answered your question, instead of a reply from you, – the cowboy rode off into the sunset – er - went to play golf.

The above relates to your post today in your saying, “…I know my heart and life are filled with all kinds of sins both known and unknown by me.”

So I thought I’d point this out as I believe the sin of pride keeps us from admitting we’re wrong.

I never understood the riff between you and Paula…I miss her.

Jeff said...

Rex, I don't understand this post to Wade.

Darby Livingston said...

Rex, it's ironic that you quote the funny papers because that's what your whole comment reminded me of.

"I'll get you Wade Burleson if it's the last thing I ever do!
Some day you'll screw up and I'll be right there waiting!
It's for your own good Wade that I'm obsessed with your blog - repent, Wade, repent!"

Who keeps files of people to see if they've ever said they're wrong? You actually think Wade went to play golf because he didn't want to respond to a comment? Here's a line from another funny page: Good grief.

Rex Ray said...

CB,
Just read your comment on complimenting Wade, and I’ve just gouged him.

Quite a switch; huh? Of the two, yours makes you a much better man than I.

Christiane said...

Hi REX RAY,

I miss Paula too. I wish she would come back.
Are you doing okay? How is Belle doing? Love and Prayers, L's

Bob Cleveland said...

Rex,

I suggest to you John 13:34 and 1 Corinthians 13:5.

351,383 words?

Thy Peace said...

Rex Ray:

I would encourage you to listen to Pastor Wade's sermons. He gives plenty of examples of where he was wrong and how he was wrong. All this to illustrate scripture principles. I have never looked at Pastor Wade as squeaky clean and holier than thou attitude. I do understand that this subject has come up many times in the comments.

From my perspective, a blog with comments only shows a small portion of who a person is. IMHO it is also better to look at Pastor Wade's work at his Church.

Jon L. Estes said...

Many church people don't even understand Jesus is Lord. If we struggle with this truth can we ever become concrete concerning the gospel?

Rex Ray said...

One of the problems of making comments is not knowing what other comments have been made before you post.

I made a comment to Wade, and then read what CB said. I didn’t know what Jeff and Darby said to me while making a comment to CB.

Jeff, you’ll understand my post to Wade by my reply to Darby.

Darby,
I really laughed over the confusion I had with your comment to me. I first thought you didn’t like Wade and were out to make him repent. I didn’t realize at first that you were talking about me because what you said was so far from the truth that my mind couldn’t comprehend what you were saying.

I have a file of Wade’s post to print in order to show people what he’s written. I’ve reached the point that some say, “Oh, here comes Rex with another Burleson post!”

I’ve told Wade a long time ago he was my hero. I know that me being a ‘moderate’ makes me one of the ‘black sheep’ in this crowd.

Wade has been accused of being a liberal and becoming like me. I think he caught some flack when he took up for me one time by saying he was glad I was a Southern Baptist.

The reason I ‘jumped’ him is I want my ‘hero’ to be perfect and it’s always easier to see the speck than the beam :)

Christiane,
Thanks. Belle is having a hard time.

Jon L. Estes said...

I have a file of Wade’s post to print in order to show people what he’s written.

I guess we all need a hobby.

;-)

Jeff said...

I just knew that Rex as a CBFer.

A Collector of Burleson Files! :)

linda said...

Pastor Wade: I cannot tell you how long it has been since I heard a Baptist preacher preach the truth of the gospel. Thank you for this wonderful post!

If I lived in Enid and if you folks would have me, I'd still be a Baptist! Fortunately my non Baptist pastor makes allowance for my Baptist ways!

Only once I was freed by Jesus from worrying about the penalty for my sins could I begin to focus on the consequences on earth of my sins. Didn't take long to know His way worked better than my way.

No, I am not perfect and I know despite my best efforts I fall so short that justice would only find me grovelling before a Holy God as I fled into hell.

But grace! and mercy! and His righteousness covering me, imputed to my account, and I am free to flee to my Father!

The older I get the more I realize that Jesus saves. Not Jesus and works. Not Jesus and baptism. Not Jesus and tithing, or Jesus and church membership, or Jesus and me. Just Jesus.

How grateful I am!

Darby Livingston said...

Rex,

Thanks for the reply. I understand now what you meant. Makes my comment rather superfluous. My fault.

B Nettles said...

Wade,
Thanks for the excellent post. Our preaching pastor just started a series on Galatians, and we're 2 weeks into it. Your post makes the 3rd time in 10 days I've had the joy of remembering that I'm saved by Christ's righteousness, not my own.

Wade Burleson said...

Rex,

It's great to have friends like you. One of the things I've learned the last few months is that CBF people love Jesus like SBC people love Jesus.

Now if we could just get people who love Jesus to love each other.

:)

Jeff said...

Wade, Loving people doesn't mean we have to accept their error. The CBF may love Jesus but many of them are in error.

Joe Blackmon said...

Wade, Loving people doesn't mean we have to accept their error. The CBF may love Jesus but many of them are in error.

Now Jeff, there you go again being divisive and unkind by suggesting there is such a thing as absolute truth. Don't you know there are many ways to heaven. I mean, come on, dude, this is the 21st century. [/sarcasm]

Jeff said...

Joe, I doubt Wade will answer me because I don't drink his kool-aid. I also suspect he is planning to run for president next summer at Orlando. He is hoping to get in on a split ticket. We may have three men running for president.

Joe Blackmon said...

"...split ticket..."??? How would that work?

Jeff said...

GCR will have a man running for office.

BI/NGCR will have a man running for office.

Wade's ticket...

Three people running...

Joe Blackmon said...

The scary part is, in that scenario I can see Wade winning. Kinda makes me feel better about leading my family to a church that is not SBC.

Jeff said...

Joe, Why do you think Wade has changed the tone of his blog? It's still political, but not in the overt way. Notice the topics he touching on.....think about the connections they have---who he is trying to connect with on his blog.

I could be wrong.....

Darby Livingston said...

"who he is trying to connect with on his blog."

It looks like a pretty eclectic bunch to me.

Joe Blackmon said...

Jeff,

I hope you're wrong but I would not be surprised. In fact, like I said I wouldn't be surprised if he won.

John Fariss said...

Joe, Jeff, and others:

Just FYI, I am a CBF'er (although I still have one foot in the SBC too). I know there is only one way to heaven, and that way is Jesus Christ. Furthermore, I don't know anyone in the CBF who would disagree with that position. The picture you (and others) sometimes paint is more a carcature than a photographically accurate representation of who "we" actually are. Do you really think Jesus likes that?

John

Wade Burleson said...

Jeff,

You write:

Joe, I doubt Wade will answer me because I don't drink his kool-aid.

I've looked twice but I can't find any question that you have asked me - only comments that you have made.

Blessings,

Wade

Jeff said...

Wade, Fair enough.

Are you planning on running for president of the SBC in 2010 or any year after 2010?

Do you know or have knowledge of any plans to nominate you for president of 2010 or later?

Are you planning to nominate someone to run a president in 2010 or later?

Are you seeking any office of the SBC at this time?

Wade Burleson said...

Jeff and Joe,

I have as much interest in running for President of the SBC as Colt McCoy has in transferring to the University of Oklahoma to play quarterback.

:)

Wade Burleson said...

Specific answer to questions you ask Jeff:

(1). No.
(2). No.
(3). No.
(4). No.

Lydia said...

Wade, I think they are looking for a repeat of this statement:


"I will not accept if nominated and will not serve if elected."

General William Tecumseh Sherman

Wade Burleson said...

Lydia,

Good one. :)

Ditto to General Sherman.

Thy Peace said...

Wiki > Shermanesque statement.

Jon L. Estes said...

John,

Though not all CBFers would support abortion (just one hot topic among Christians) for reasons of convenience, some do and I am unaware of any real conservative baptist who would support abortion for such a cause.

This is one area of conflict.

Jeff said...

Wade, Thanks for your answers---I know Joe will be relief to know that you will not under any circumstances allow yourself to be nominated for any position in the SBC.

Lydia said...

I never understood the riff between you and Paula…I miss her.

Tue Sep 08, 11:33:00 AM 2009

Looks like Paula has been busy:

http://biblioblogtop50.wordpress.com/2009/09/07/three-women/

Kevin M. Crowder said...

"I just meant that it didn't surprise me that they didn't understand the gospel."

The Episcopalian and Anglican Communions understand the Gospel quite well. We pray for those in their midst who have sadly strayed from the entire story of the Gospel and have lessened the hope of the glory of Christ for their people. I must admit my own past fault of condescending rhetoric when it comes to those of different stripes within the greater covenant community, which is the Bride of Christ. My hope however is that the Lord will continue to use those in other Christian Faith Communities to teach me the aspects of the Gospel which my own Faith Community fails to see.

We ought to ask ourselves why our churches are retreating from the label of "Baptist." I imagine Emmanuel can wear it with pride, for their community (from all accounts) sees the King of Creation manifested in her people. When this happens, the Lord opens up doors (or conversations) to make disciples and teach the Good News.

This is not about a denomination's teachings; this is about the Lord doing a work in the heart of one man (or 2).

We should all pray for more opportunities. We should all pray that the Lord would bless us as agents entrusted with His Gospel.


Romans 1:1-6

Joe Blackmon said...

The Episcopalian and Anglican Communions understand the Gospel quite well.

Openly homosexual clergy and bishops? Methinks not so much.

John Farris,

While not all CBF affiliated churches deny the deity of Christ, denounce the idea of wives submitting to their own husbands, homosexuality always being a sin, and abortion always being a sin, those who do hold to those positions were the ones that left the SBC to join with the CBF. Therefore, even though the CBF may not officially endorse any of those positions, it has no problem fellowshippping with those who do endorse them. That is a passive kind of endorsement.

Of course, since my family and I have left the SBC to go to an non-denominational church (the pastor is working on his doctorate from Masters Seminary, John MacArthur's seminary, so that should give a good idea of their doctrinal stance) I don't suppose I've got any kind of dog in this fight.

John Fariss said...

Joe,

Two pouints about what you said.

First, you wrote, "While not all CBF affiliated churches deny the deity of Christ, denounce the idea of wives submitting to their own husbands, homosexuality always being a sin, and abortion always being a sin, those who do hold to those positions were the ones that left the SBC to join with the CBF." Well, Joe, I don't know any CBF churches that deny the deity of Christ, that homosexuality & abortion are sins. (I left wives submitting because I am not sure how far you mean to carry that one, and--as I understand it--it is in a different league than homosexuality or abortion anyway.) But the thing is, Joe, it is easy for you to affirm it or for me to deny it. Let's see some proof that "those who do hold to those positions were the ones that left the SBC to join with the CBF." I am one of those who joined the CBF, and I don't hold those positions. Hey, I am a member of three national organizations that (1) have homosexual members and (2) have never condemned the practice. Does that mean that I affirm them? No not at all; because the National Association of Watch and Clock Collectors, the American Philatelic Society, and the Confederate Stamp Alliance have no char ter to deal with homosexuality, abortion, or other such issues. Of course, the CBF has a charter, and if you will check their website, you will find that they do indeed have policies any Southern Baptist could agree with. But unlike the SBC, the CBF is not a denomination, so it makes no attempt to speak for those who agree with its charter.

That brings me to the second point--which is FORGET all I have said so far. Why? Because you are side-stepping the issue altogether! The issue I raised was the caricature of CBF supporters in your 2:55 PM entry. There you paint with a very broad brush what I can only presume, by your language, means that all CBF supporters agree "there are many ways to heaven."

If you will back off that a little--be a man and say, "OK, I overstated things there, and I appologize," then we can maybe have some real dialogue on these other issues. I have done that, and there is no shame in admitting that my zeal for winning I went further than the evidence allowed. But it is hard to have real dialogue as long as you hold onto incorrect positions.

John

Tom Kelley said...

(Off topic)
Interesting discussion going on here:
Women in Ministry Blog Conference

Tom Kelley said...

Joe Blackmon said...
"I just meant that it didn't surprise me that they [an Episopalian and a Disciple] didn't understand the gospel."


Sadly, I'm not so sure that the same isn't just as true of a typical Southern Baptist these days.

Kevin M. Crowder said...

"it has no problem fellowshipping with those who do endorse them. That is a passive kind of endorsement."

How do you even witness to the lost man if you will not fellowship with sinners? You would be amazed at the work here in St. Louis that the Lord is doing through a church called "The Journey" and several PCA inner city plants to those whom you would snub. I think you need a nice stiff drink. I'll even join you and we can talk about the Love our Lord had for prostitutes, thieves and other such unholy nonbaptists of His day.

Me thinks you have some gifts that the Lord wants to use. But if you have not love...

Christiane said...

Hi KEVIN,

You wrote this to JOE: "I'll even join you and we can talk about the Love our Lord had for prostitutes, thieves and other such unholy nonbaptists of His day."

I suppose Our Lord saw past their sins and to 'the woman' who made her way by prostitution and to 'the man' who had stolen from others. He wasn't one to label anyone, was He. And He asks us to learn from Him.

BTW I happen to know that Joe loves . . . . . . elephants !
Anyone who loves elephants is okay by me. Encourage him, Kevin, encourage him.
Love and Prayers, L's

Tom Kelley said...

Christiane said...
Anyone who loves elephants is okay by me.


Does that include Republicans? Hahaaaa! :)

Joe Blackmon said...

How do you even witness to the lost man if you will not fellowship with sinners?

Two totally different things. Fellowshipping with a co-worker who is gay over lunch, chit chatting, looking for opportunities to share the gospel in a respectful way so as not to come off sounding like "You know you're gonna burn in hell, right?" is just a WEE bit different than associating yourself with someone who claims to be a Christian but holds to doctrines contrary to scripture.

And L's, did you see my Tide roll over V-Tech Saturday. A thing of beauty is a joy forever.

John, How's this-the people that I know who are in CBF churches that believe like that go to two different churches in two different states. Now, I will admit that they perhaps don't speak for their church but based on comments they've made I think they do. Having read things that Bruce Prescot has written over at Mainstream Baptists leads me to believe that the attitudes I have described are accurate for a majority of CBF churches and members. HOWEVER, I do acknowledge that since I don't know every or most folks in the CBF I have no way to say how right or wrong I am in my assumptions.

Lydia said...

Christiane said...
Anyone who loves elephants is okay by me.

Does that include Republicans? Hahaaaa! :)

Tue Sep 08, 10:11:00 PM 2009

You owe me a keyboard...
You made me sprew my green tea!

Christiane said...

Hi LYDIA,

Yes, I love all elephants, even the ones who vote Republican. :)

Love, L's

P.S. Go ahead, price up a new keyboard, I'll replace it.
Just please, ask Paula if she will come back. She is missed.
Love, L's

Christiane said...

LYDIA, cancel that offer.

It's TOM KELLEY who owes you a keyboard.


JOE, I saw the beginning. You must have been thrilled. My husband watched the game. He doesn't like the VA Tech coach. My husband likes coaches like Joe Paterno, who insisted that his players studied for good grades so that they would get a real education.

Congratulations on your win. :)
Life is good. Love, L's

Kevin M. Crowder said...

"Two totally different things. Fellowshipping with a co-worker who is gay over lunch, chit chatting, looking for opportunities to share the gospel in a respectful way so as not to come off sounding like "You know you're gonna burn in hell, right?" is just a WEE bit different than associating yourself with someone who claims to be a Christian but holds to doctrines contrary to scripture."

How so? They are both going to hell in your estimation right?


Love your ememies Joe. Whether they claim Christ or not.

K

Lydia said...

How so? They are both going to hell in your estimation right?


Love your ememies Joe. Whether they claim Christ or not.

K

Tue Sep 08, 11:34:00 PM 2009

Come on Crowder, You know better than that...What about this:

1 Corinthians 5

9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

Lydia said...

Crowder, btw: I am really glad that 1 Corin 5 passage only applies to 'brothers'. :o)

Thy Peace said...

The sad thing is the above passage was used against Pastor Wade and Fbc Jax Watchdog.

Jeff said...

Kevin, It is not that simple and I think you know it. Jesus did associate with various people but he also avoided the Pharisees (although not all).

Darrell said...

Brother Kevin,

Sweet, gracious, wise, words.

Joe could learn from you.

Amen young man

Darrell

Jeff said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
child of grace said...

Speaking of understanding the Gospel...

Something interesting is unfolding in Dallas -- a group called wouldjesusdiscriminate.org has purchased billboards featuring bible verses they believe support homosexuality.

You can see images of the billboards on the right side of their website.

Lydia said...

The sad thing is the above passage was used against Pastor Wade and Fbc Jax Watchdog.

Tue Sep 08, 11:58:00 PM 2009

The Pharisees never recognize themselves. A lot of scripture is misused for personal gain or defense.

Rex Ray said...

Yes Lydia, the devil has quoted scripture and is still doing it.

Jeff, you said, “I just knew that Rex as a CBFer.”

Now it’s my turn to ask what you mean.

For the record, I accepted Jesus when I was ten and have always been a Southern Baptists. I didn’t know there was a Conservative Resurgence until 1997 when my missionary son sent an email from the IMB president asking missionaries to have a confidence to follow their God-appointed leaders whether they understood or agreed.

The president assured my son that being ‘grandfathered’ he would not have to sign the new BFM. Then he was told if he didn’t sign, he would not be fired.

But like someone else in the Bible that feared for their job, the president reversed his promises.

We no longer have missionaries guided by the Holy Spirit; but employees obeying orders from the IMB.

This year, a regional director shook his finger in my face and said, “If you don’t like the way things are done in your church, LEAVE!”
I thought, ‘My, my, if that’s the way he councils missionaries with a problem, I feel sorry for them.’

Jeff, I’m still a Southern Baptists in a Southern Baptists BGCT church where I was a charter member in 1944. Since retirement, I’ve spent over a year and a half overseas on seventeen ‘volunteer mission trips’ for the SBC.

I regret saying I’ve never given a penny to the CBF; especially as their president’s wife (that I’ve never met) asked my cousin if he was related to a Rex Ray that was a blogger. He confessed and she said she believed every word I wrote. Hey! How’s that for tooting your own horn? :)

Yes, I’m a Southern Baptists, but now, I’m barely hanging on by my finger-nails.

Ut oh, I hung this comment on the wrong post. My memory’s not what it used to be. Monday, I went to ‘family night’ – an hour before the funeral. Just before the service I sat behind my cousin who was in a row of ladies. She whispered, “You better check your zipper.”
“I thank you from the bottom of my heart.”
“Oh, I wasn’t the one that noticed.”
To make it even worse, I was a pallbearer.

It was a nice service for a Christian 95 year-old, but I wasn’t prepared to hear the last goodbye from her 102 year-old sister.

RRR said...

Rex Ray said:
"We no longer have missionaries guided by the Holy Spirit; but employees obeying orders from the IMB."

Wow, Rex, that hurts.

and Rex Ray continued by saying:

"This year, a regional director shook his finger in my face and said, “If you don’t like the way things are done in your church, LEAVE!”
I thought, ‘My, my, if that’s the way he councils missionaries with a problem, I feel sorry for them.’"


You don't have to worry much about regional leaders counseling us anymore. We don't have any.

Kevin M. Crowder said...

Context of 1 Cor. 5:

Paul writing to a church who lost their way. Who ate with sinners and condoned their actions. A church who REALLY did not love but rather was accommodating to "every wind of doctrine."

Context of the Sermon on the Mount (M 5-7)/Plain (L 6):

Love your enemies, do good to those use you, judge not the lost [for they are supposed to sin; love them, teach them about Jesus; love them; teach them about Jesus and leave the convicting to the Spirit]

Use James 1:5 before you decide you have been empower to dish out "tough love."


Btw, having a meal with a believer or a lost person does NOT carry the same weight as it did in the first century. I will eat a meal today with ANYONE, bar none! Especially if they are buying. :)


Lydia and Joe, may the Lord bless you and keep you and convince you that the gays and lesbians do NOT want to eat your children. they simply want to be loved and accepted. I pledge to love them and accept them as part of God's perfect creation, fallen, and in need of a love which I cannot proved, but to which I can point.

Let's all join in point up instead of out.

K

Jeff said...

Rex, It was a joke.

Collector Of Burleson Files (CBF)

Kevin M. Crowder said...

Correction:

Context of the Sermon on the Mount (M 5-7)/Plain (L 6):

Our Lord teaching His disciples how to live the Christian live in relation to those around us.

linda said...

Just some thoughts re fellowshipping with whatever stripe of sinner our local congregation is dealing with:

We welcome all. Period. That doesn't mean we welcome all behavior either inside our church or outside. It doesn't mean we condone all behavior.

Since we welcome all, we do attract some caught in substance abuse dependency and their enablers. We also have attracted some gay people.

We preach and teach the scripture--which on occasion they find offensive. So be it. All of us get our toes stepped on just about every week, not just those groups.

Here is where it gets sticky: the gay attenders are determined to get us not only to love and accept them as persons (we do!) but to condone their actions. If we do not, we are castigated as judgemental or unloving or just plain mean.

Sorry. Not gonna buy it.

We have to be able to understand that while Jesus DOES love them, and while Jesus DID eat with, reach out to, and fellowship with sinners, there is NO PLACE in the Bible where He told them to "go and continue sinning, God loves you anyway."

Drunks, gays, prostitutes, whatever, are called JUST LIKE THE REST OF US to repentance, faith, and to join in the struggle to overcome their sin.

Now, I haven't overcome my chocolate "inordinate affection" fully and may not until Heaven. They, too, may not be successful in the struggle until Heaven. We love them anyway.

But there is a huge difference in struggling against sin, successfully or not, and embracing and condoning it. (I haven't noticed any billboards trying to prove the non sinfulness of embezzling, have you?)

Our pastor taught us some things when he preached on the prodigal son.

He pointed out the father did not condemn the prodigal, did not revile him, but neither did he follow him into the pigpen to pad it or to beg him to come out of it. He stayed home and waited. Only when the prodigal repented and got out of the pigpen and returned to the father was he welcomed home.

In the same way, the churches as groups and we as individual Christians must ALWAYS be watching and ready to welcome the repentant prodigal. ALWAYS.

But no matter how loudly they cry for compassion or throw tantrums about our meanness or try to make us feel guilty, for their benefit we must NEVER pad the pigpen. We must stay out of the pigpen ourselves in order to be able to reach out and help them out when they are ready to leave it.

And we do not need to apologize for doing that.

Some families have put that "tough love" into practice and have had the sheer delight and joy of seeing their family members saved, out of sin, and enjoying abundant life.

Some have chosen to remain enablers, and their family members continue to spiral downward toward death.

I'm sure the last group feels they ae being very loving and non judgemental, but in reality they aren't.

One definition of enabling is this: if you were driving around town with a 22 round in your ashtray and saw two people playing russian roulette without a bullet so you stopped and gave them the bullet they so desperately wanted, you are an enabler. But you will feel good until the funeral.

I believe our culture slipped into one of enabling a long time ago. Now the churches (some at least) are following that trend.

But we'll feel good about our piousness until the funeral.

Christiane said...

ELEISON

Do the 'righteous' witness to the broken, or can it be also the other way around?

A person in pain has a lot to say that needs to be heard:
if anything, especially by the hard of heart.

"We" may 'accept' "them".

But it is not until we realize that we ARE them, that they are truly accepted,
and we can once more begin to acknowledge our own great need for Christ's healing.

The Church is a place for healing: of pride and self-rightiousness and mean-spiritedness, perhaps above all other sins.
And why?
Because these are the faults that blind us: that can turn our faces away from Christ the Lord
and towards our own pitiful thoughts of self-perfection.

Best to pray for all of us together: a community united in our need of Christ's mercy.

Love, L's

linda said...

Yes--WE are ALL sinners.

But facing that means facing ALL our sins.

I'm sorry you find me hard hearted.

But I'm grateful a dear friend and cousin was hard hearted enough to show me my need for a Savior.

I'm grateful a doctor was hard hearted enough to help my husband see his need to lose 100 lbs. (Giving us many more years to share.)

I'm grateful the church was hard hearted enough to help my grandmother realize the course she was on would kill her someday, and there to help her change course.

What I don't understand is that you find it hard hearted to say "I am a sinner saved by grace. The scripture says you are a sinner who can also be saved by grace."

Where is the unlovingness in that?

Do you really believe I can be loving only by saying "I am a sinner saved by grace--but of course, you are perfect just as you are?"

St. Steven of St. Paul, MN said...

Wade...for goodness sake. You could have shared the gospel with them in less time than it took to write your blog.

Joe Blackmon said...

Wade...for goodness sake. You could have shared the gospel with them in less time than it took to write your blog.

Best.Comment.Ever.

Wade Burleson said...

Joe and St. Steven,

At the funeral of their mutual friend, community leader and businessman R.C. Parrish, held the day after we played golf, both men heard me share the gospel clearly, for both men were in attendance.

Please know that the concern for the souls of the men with whom I have a friendship is genuine. Your concern that I share the gospel with them is noted, but I can assure you that both writing a blog and sharing Christ with friends are not mutually exclusive.

In His Grace,

Wade

Tom Parker said...

Jeff:

You said--"Wade, Loving people doesn't mean we have to accept their error. The CBF may love Jesus but many of them are in error."

Why do you say such things?

You make it sound like all those in the CBF are lost people and you surely do not know that.

Lydia said...

Crowder, I cannot add anything to what linda wrote. She explained it well.

Chris Ryan said...

Jeff,

Jesus didn't avoid the Pharisees. They flocked around Him during His preaching and teaching. Nicodeamus came to Him seeking counsel. Jesus accepted invitations to sit with them for dinner. While there are certainly outsiders and insiders, Jesus doesn't seem to have the "us v them" mentality we Baptists are so prone to.

Thy Peace said...

Off Topic:

Pastor Wade, if you wish to change the page width of your blog, the simplest way to do this is to pick one of the following templates (Tekka, Sand Dollar, Herbert/Jelly Fish, Minima Stretch/Minima Lefty Stretch). Now based on your current template, the closest would be Minima Lefty Stretch. These template use variable width and will resize based on the window of the browser.

Of course, you would loose the parchment background.

There are ways to edit your current template, but the background "parchment" images need to be changed and it's little bit more work + some other element sizes have to be changed.

If you wish to make changes, please save or export the current template first and only preview the changes before committing.

Wade Burleson said...

Thanks Thy Peace,

Wade

Christiane said...

Hi CHRIS RYAN

I agree with your comment that Christ did not engage in 'Us' versus 'Them' behavior.

Why do we do it? See ourselves as 'better' than the 'others' ?

I think some of the answers may be found in a chart that Wade posted some time ago and is referenced from Nancy DeMoss on the differences between
PROUD, UNBROKEN PEOPLE
AND
BROKEN PEOPLE:



Proud, Unbroken People: (1). Focus on the failure of others

Broken People: (1). Are overwhelmed with their own spiritual need (Matthew 5:3, 7:3-5, Luke 18:9-14)

* * * * * * * *

Proud Unbroken People: (2). Are self righteous; have a critical, fault finding spirit; look at own life/faults with a telescope but others with a microscope

Broken People: (2). Are compassionate; have a forgiving spirit; look for the best in others (Ephesians 4:32, Colossians 3:12)

* * * * * * * *

Proud Unbroken People: (3). Look down, in a condescending spirit, at others
Broken People: (3). Esteem all others as better than self (Phil. 2:3, Rom. 12:10)

* * * * * * * *

The rest of the chart can be found by going to Wade's List of Topics and clicking on his topic 'HUMILITY'.

There is a song Protestants sing that is very, very meaningful to me and I love it. One of the lines says something about 'It is a gift to come down where we ought to be.'

Perhaps it is there, in that place, that we can find Our Lord's blessing waiting for us.
Love, L's

Kevin M. Crowder said...

"the gay attendees are determined to get us not only to love and accept them as persons (we do!) but to condone their actions. If we do not, we are castigated as judgmental or unloving or just plain mean.

Sorry. Not gonna buy it."

Its ok, it was free. :)

Actually I was not speaking of local church corporate worship within the safe walls we have built. The American church rarely acts like the church within its walls much less outside. Outside however is precisely the place the Lord has called us to be the church. As members of the Body of Christ it is important that we build relationships with the lost in our community. We address their physical and emotional needs first, living out our calling through Christ. The Lord will address their sins; we need only point them to Him. This requires being disciple makers, that is to say walking along side them, showing them the grace and truth God has given us in Christ.

Sundays are the Lord's Day. Our worship to Him ought to be regulated by the Bible. Biblically regulated worship to the Lord accomplishes 3 goals: 1. It brings honor and glory to the King. 2. It builds up the people of God. 3. It brings conviction through the confession of sin and acknowledgement of pardon by the finished work of Christ and through the power of the Spirit.

When is the last time you have heard of a Baptist Church service including the worship elements of confession and absolution? When is the last time you have corporately affirmed the "I believes" of the faith? When the churches of the SBC refocus their priorities on God's Holy Word and HIS purposes for the church, then maybe our size might be an indication of our effectiveness.


Stop worrying about who can't come in and just preach Jesus.


K

Kevin M. Crowder said...

"Wade...for goodness sake. You could have shared the gospel with them in less time than it took to write your blog."

St. Steve,

This is precisely the problem. No he most certainly could not have. Sharing the Gospel, the great story of the Bible from the creation, rebellion, redemption, and finally the new creation is something only a sloppy Christian would do in 15 minutes.

God opens doors of opportunities to share portions of the Story at times and in responses to the specific needs of the lost. We must be wise in our handling of this great Story. Starting in John 3 or a few verses in Romans and then quoting a prayer leads to the false doctrine of decisional regeneration.

Teach them the whole story, make disciples of them, and let the Spirit regenerate and call them to Christ.

Nothing wrong with asking for a commitment to walk with Christ, but a commitment can be broken. Tell them the whole story and allow the Lord to make a covenant with them--which cannot be broken.

K

Paul Burleson said...

Kevin,

I don't know what you're drinking but I want a six-pack of it.

[Just kidding..I DO know..the River of the Spirit who cuts His own channel. Swim deep my friend.]]

Rodney Sprayberry said...

Kevin....

Ditto what Paul said

Christiane said...

Dear KEVIN,

When you wrote, "As members of the Body of Christ it is important that we build relationships with the lost in our community. We address their physical and emotional needs first, living out our calling through Christ. The Lord will address their sins; we need only point them to Him. This requires being disciple makers, that is to say walking along side them, showing them the grace and truth God has given us in Christ."

I thought, 'he understands, he really understands.'

I am so very moved by what you wrote. It is so much easier for people to sit in judgment on others than to love them. But God wants us to love them, just as they are. He asks us to point to Him. And, yes, He will do the rest. Love is the most powerful witness of the Lord Jesus Christ. I hope we all begin to witness without the 'harsh judgment' now used by those who do not yet understand how to reach out a gentle hand to someone who suffers.
The 'lost' know 'harsh' already. They need something more from us.
Something much more.

Thank you, Kevin.
You strengthen my faith.
Love, L's

Gary Snowden said...

Kevin,

I'm totally amazed (in a very good way) at the radical change that your comments have demonstrated recently. It's almost like someone stole the old Kevin and replaced him with a newer model--much kinder, gentler, and Christlike in his responses. If it's the seminary training that you're engaged in, the faculty there is to be commended.

Christiane said...

Hi GARY,

I saw something in Kevin long ago, 'something that loved Christ more'.

The seminary is nurturing that love for Christ in Kevin. And my heart rejoices.

Love, L's

Lydia said...

"Actually I was not speaking of local church corporate worship within the safe walls we have built.

That is what I was referring to and what Paul was referring to when writing in 1 Corin 5.

We went a long way around the mulberry bush.

I think we both agree that the culture war that has been waged in the SBC is fruitless. It is OUT THERE where we should be as salt and light.

But we have also allowed a lot of evil as normal within the Body of Christ.

We have done the opposite of what Paul was writing about in 1 Corin 5. We judged the outside instead of ourselves.

Kevin M. Crowder said...

"We went a long way around the mulberry bush."

I like mulberries...I think..what's a mulberry? If its like a raspberry or blackberry then lets make pies!

Lydia,
I am certain that we both agree on the matter and am happy that you responded as such. I am saddened however when churches and denominations with ministries to those who suffer from the oppression of sins many think abominable are criticized for accommodating sin. Dr. Trish Hawley recently wrote a 1st person for Baptist Press about the opportunity for Baptists to minister to those with HIV/AIDS. Her area of expertise at NOBTS is women's ministries and as such her article focuses on women with HIV/AIDS in America and around the world. But her vision is clear and the Lord is calling many more of us to minister to a segment of the world that has been cast aside by the church. The fact is though that He has ALREADY called the entire church to do the same. May the Lord raise up more young leaders like Dr. Hawley to cast the vision and may he silence those who would thwart the giving of a cup of cold water in His name.

Blessings to all who gave such kind words!

K

Joe Blackmon said...

I'm totally amazed (in a very good way) at the radical change that your comments have demonstrated recently. It's almost like someone stole the old Kevin and replaced him with a newer model--

That is the sad truth. I think you've had just one too many glasses of the Kool Aid or Flavor Aid as the case may be. It's like one day you're standing for the truth, contending for the faith once for all delivered, and the next you've taken a sharp left down Looneytown Pike. What up with that?

Wade Burleson said...

Joe,

I'm not sure why you feel compelled to use unflattering epitaphs when referring to those who voice views different than yours (in this case, Kevin Crowder), but honestly, you lose any audience who might heed your cautions or pay attention to your words because you seem to find either comfort or enjoyment in such name calling (i.e. "drinking the Kool-Aid," "Looneytown Pike," etc...).

Rex Ray said...

RRR,
Hey! I didn’t know you were a missionary. Many thanks.

I’m glad you don’t have a regional director. If you did have one, he could have been like the one reported in the Baptists Standard October 22, 2001.

He told a missionary couple, “I’ll pray tonight, and tomorrow I’ll tell you what God’s will is for your life.”

I assume the supervisor was a man, as Patterson called the IMB on the carpet for having women in positions over men.

I’m glad you’re an exception to my saying: “We no longer have missionaries guided by the Holy Spirit; but employees obeying orders from the IMB.”

Your beach pictures on your blog look like where our church has gone many times for missions…Ixtapa, Mexico. (One hundred miles North of Accupoco)

Our pastor has gone the last two times.

Joe Blackmon said...

Wade

"...drinking the Kool Aid..." can't be name calling. Drinking is a verb. Names are nouns. Also, I wasn't calling Kevin Looneytown Pike. That would be a road name that I just made up. :o)

Rex Ray said...

Joe,
I guess it’s too hard to say you’re sorry.

linda said...

Our church never worries about who can't come in.

We do reach out in love to those groups I mentioned: gays, transgendered, drug addicts, gang bangers are people we live among, reach out to, hang with, and generally show the love of Christ.

That is exactly what attracts them to our church. (Think about it--it is what attracts any of us to a specific church.)

There is one church in our town that supports actively gay ministers and will perform gay "weddings" although they are not legal in our state. That church has not been "targeted". (I'll explain below."

They know before they ever walk in the door what we believe and teach concerning those issues.

The "stink" starts when they come in with a set agenda to change what we can teach or preach. I use the term set agenda very specifically, as one transgender friend of mine has shared which churches were "targeted" at which specific times. She has the printed agenda.

I say it again: we are all sinners equally deserving of hell. We do not teach that "we", meaning the members of this specific local church, are somehow better than "they" are, meaning those who have not applied for membership.

We do believe the Word of God is more powerful than any two-edged sword. We do believe God can regenerate, justify, sanctify, and someday glorify both "us" and "them."

We also believe scripture tells us to think on whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever thing are of good report. To that end, while we will befriend anyone, we won't endlessly listen to anyone's sad tale of how tough life is. We will briefly--and then share the good news of how wonderful the abundant life is, and how to get there.

As one SS teacher put it, folks are standing on a railroad track with a fast approaching freight train. We are NOT going to, in the name of loving them, question them as to how they got there, why they stay there, how it feels to be there, or commiserate with how rough it is to stand there. We are gonna yell at them to GET OFF THE TRACKS! If it were possibly, we would throw ourselves under the train to push them off the tracks!

We fail to see any love at all in simply "being with" them if they get run over by that train!

Joe Blackmon said...

linda,

I am aghast that you would suggest we preach what the Bible teaches about sin and repentance. I mean, that's so 20th century. Don't you know that if we love everybody good enough they'll see the dangerous predicament their soul is in? If ya'll would stop preaching that sin stuff those good hearted crossdressing folks wouldn't have to spend their time trying to open your eyes to your homophobia. I mean, you've got fat people in the church and you don't preach on gluttony I bet. Hypocrites!!

[Just in case it wasn't obvious, that was sarcasm.]

Christiane said...

Maybe the day has finally come for all Christians to die to self ,not our beliefs, but rather our comfort, our fears, and our desires to prove ourselves right, and go right out after
the rejected, the ridiculed, and the harshly-treated?

Yes or No?

Joe Blackmon said...

to die to self ,not our beliefs, but rather our comfort, our fears, and our desires to prove ourselves right, and go right out after
the rejected, the ridiculed, and the harshly-treated?


Go after them and do what? Hold their hand and tell them it's ok, you can live any way you want to? Oh, don't worry about what the Bible says, that's just for another culture and another time? Because see, here's the thing and it really comes down to this: Christ did not come to make people feel better about themselves or their situation. He didn't come to boost their self esteem. He came to die a violent death reserved for the worst offenders in society because of sin. Some people want to call themselves Christans and not call people to repent of their sin. When those people die, if they have not repented and trusted Jesus Christ alone for their salvation they will spend all of eternity in Hell. So in my mind, calling someone to repent in a loving manner and telling them in a loving manner that their sin, ALL sin, separates them from God might make them a little mad at me and they might call me a narrowminded biggot but it's much more loving than telling them "It's ok. God loves you no matter what" and them dieing and never hearing the gospel. The social gospel, kum-by-ya, "let's love 'em all into the kingdom don't matter what you believe no how" might make us seem more understanding and loving but all that understanding might just understand a lost person right into hell.

Christiane said...

JOE, JOE . . .

Yes, go out and follow after
the Rejected . . .
the Ridiculed . . .
the Harshly-treated . . .
Follow Him.
Go where He leads.
Without fear.
Without worries for your comfort.

"He was despised and rejected by others; a man of suffering . . . "

We all need to get out of our 'comfort zones' and hiding places and follow Him.
He has some work for us to do.
Love, L's

Kevin M. Crowder said...

Joe,

Regardless of what you may think, God loves EVERY single human being just as they are. Why? Because all humanity is God's creation, created in His image. Now this part you might like, at the same time He loves all, He hates those who offend His righteousness and reject His son. Now here is the kicker, God's "hate" is not a communicable attribute, for He cannot sin, therefore you might think of Him loving those afore mentioned a "little less." God's hate is not our hate (thank God) and God's love is really not our love (thank Him again).

And so in closing, my benediction to you...

"Sit down, sit down for Jesus you commando of the cross, lift high your royal manners, for now you shame the cross. The love of Christ be with you, till hope and peace you bring, with every word of grace flowing out eternally."


Now that'll Sing!


:)

Christiane said...

From The Second Book of Timothy
Chapter Two:


"24 And the Lord’s servant* must not be quarrelsome but kindly to everyone, an apt teacher, patient,

25 correcting opponents with gentleness.
God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth,

26 and that they may escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.*

Joe Blackmon said...

L's

You never answered my question. I'll repeat it hear.

Go after them and do what?

Christiane said...

You made an assumption that I was talking about someone other than HIM: Christ.

Read what I wrote again.
(was He not despised, ridiculed, and rejected?)

It is easy to make assumptions.
I do it myself, all the time.

Love you dearly, L's

Lydia said...

Give it up, Joe. She cleverly changes her meanings when you start insisting on specificity. By the time you go through all the platitudes and trying to pin her down with specificity, everyone is confused as to the original question.

Let's see how she answers this...of course she never means to do this sort of thing....