"I went to Jerusalem to become acquainted (Gk. istoria) with Cephas" - Paul's words from Galatians 1:18.

Did Jesus Christ Identify the Anti-Christ as the President of the United States?

video

The above video was sent to me by one of my church members with the note: "Wow. I don't know what to make of this."

Well, after watching the video there are a few conclusions that I've categorically made:

(1). This video is being added to a list of reasons for why I am sometimes embarrassed to be known as a conservative, evangelical Christian Southern Baptist (see UPDATE below).

(2). It's sad that some believers would consider this video to possess even a grain of truth.

(3). I wish the producer of this video, whomever he may be, had spent more time studying spelling in grammar school.

(4). To answer my member, and any other Christian who may wonder, the video wouldn't qualify as scholarship even as a report submitted to a theological diploma mill.

UPDATE: It has come to my attention that the producer of the video is Carl Gallups, the Southern Baptist pastor of Hickory Hammock Baptist Church in Milton, Florida and a graduate of New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary (an SBC seminary). The YouTube video website with the church's name in the profile bar is located here. Conservative national talk show host Glenn Beck has featured the video on his television show.

Good grief.

In His Grace,

Wade

84 comments:

Chris Ryan said...

Is it bad that I've only taken three weeks of Hebrew and found myself laughing out loud at his assertions?

I agree with the label given this post: stupidity.

Clif Cummings said...

Unfortunately, way too many American evangelical Christians will pass this through the world wide web as further proof for thier misguided dispensational escatology. I am certain I will receive it many times over in the next few weeks.

Dave Miller said...

Clif,

It is not fair to assume that this represents dispensational hermeneutics. It does not.

Tom Kelley said...

Baaawaaaahaaahaaahaaaaa!

I remember when folks were pointing out that Ronald Wilson Reagan had 6 letters in each name 6 6 6 ... I don't recall the world ending when he was President, either.

Chris Ryan said...

Dave,

In all fairness, usually when people try to read current events into the Bible they are dispensaltionalists. Enter the Left Behind series. I'm not saying it's the best that dispensationalism can produce (it's not). But I've never seen anything along these lines from someone who wasn't a dispensationalist.

Tom Kelley said...

Chris,
Did they teach you in Hebrew class that Aramaic was "the most ancient form of Hebrew"? Must be new-fangled scholarship...
:)

Chris Ryan said...

Tom,

I missed that one. My teachers must be revisionists. Truett is a bunch of theological liberals after all...

*removes tongue from cheek*

Debbie Kaufman said...

Dave: It may not represent your eschatology of dispensationalism, but it does represent many who believe in dispensationalism.

CB Scott said...

It is sad. And in this case, if Wade's sentiment is that this will do nothing but hurt the cause of Christ among people we need to reach with the gospel; I greatly agree with him.

Dave Miller said...

There are few viewpoints which do not have their extremes. I will admit that among the dispensational camp there are quite a few wingnuts who make easy pickings for those who want to make light of dispensationalism.

But it is never fair to judge a doctrine by its abuses. You cannot condemn all charismatics because there are the Benny Hinns out there. You cannot reject Calvinism because of the hyper-calvinist extremes I have come in contact with. You cannot judge all Baptists because there are legalistic indy-fundy extremists out there.

It is a lazy argument to use the extreme to nullify the doctrine. I studied at the premiere dispensationalist seminary in the world (Dallas) and I can assure you that no serious dispensationalist (and they DO exist) respects this nonsense.

anon said...

Wade, it IS amazing the efforts that people put into things only to neglect the simple and the most obvious.

It's hard to worry about a Hebrew "scholar" that can't spell the easiest English words.

However, you might want to rethink whether posting this video does more harm than good. There are some for whom something like this sounds authoritative and frankly I would not want to be associated with it even in a critical light.

frank-gantz said...

Wade, I loved the disclaimer at the end of the video. I suggest that all sermons have a similar disclaimer, "I'm not saying what I just said."
A little different than "Hear the Word of the Lord."

Wade Burleson said...

Anon,

I would propose that rather than stick one's head in the sand and act as if videos like this don't exist, that people who understand the stupidity of such a video tell it like it is.

Wade

Lydia said...

We are not going to be able to communicate with each other during the trib because Obama is going to control the internet and shut it down. Amazing Tim LaHaye did not think of that one. :o)

But then, on Challies a while back, a Calvinist commented that God was going to throw babies into the fire on J-Day and be pleased about it.

There are wacko's everywhere.

CB Scott said...

Wade is right. In my opinion, to stick one's head in the sand about things like this is to fail to be a biblical leader in accountability to the local body to which one has been assigned by the Lord and to the whole of the Body of Christ.

Paul stated to a local church relating to End Times that he would not have them be ignorant about such matters.

We would all do well to follow his example and seek to inform believers in our day also when such poor testimonies relating to the End Times are afoot as is this video.

Let me also go on to say that Dave Miller is right in his comments also. This video does not represent dispensational hermeneutics in a fair or rational way. He is also correct as to his rationale as to why this video does not represent true dispensational hermeneutics. And for anyone to say it does may betray a misunderstanding of a scholarly approach to the various eschatological positions in general and toward dispensationalism in particular.

cb

B Nettles said...

And I thought that the Yiddish spoken today was the most ancient form of Hebrew. Silly me.

This is almost as disturbing as the preaching style employed in a recent SWBTS chapel. Click here for the official account. Go to the website listed at the bottom to see the video of army assault vehicles storming Seminary Hill. Wow!

Hickory Hammock...that's a device for being fat, cumb, and happy isn't it? Not saying that anyone at a church by that name is those things, but I'll let you decide.

Sigh..

Lydia said...

http://exchristian.net/2/2009/09/are-evangelical-christians-really-this.html

Check out the above. Listen to what Frankie Schaeffer says.

B Nettles said...

What does making that video have to do with spreading the Gospel and making disciples? I think "The Matrix" has more Gospel than this thing.

B Nettles said...

Argh!

make that "fat, dumb, and happy" in my 12:44 post.

Jeff said...

Found this quote by Alexander Maclaren, "The people who least live their creeds are....the people who shout the loudest about them."

This applies both to liberals and fundies.

B Nettles said...

Lydia,
Your link doesn't work. I think it's incomplete. Which forum and topic at ExChristian so we can look it up?

Pastor Scott said...

Curious.

My B- in seminary hebrew does not allow me to address the scholarship. But...

Apparently others feel more comfortable in that arena.

I suppose that it does not strike anyone as coincidental that the root words sound like the president's name. Even if poor hermenteutics were applied. The right question is how would the correct sounding of the words in proper grammar/parsing/declension be? He did not provide that. I cannot provide that. So, can anyone here provide that?

As a MacArthur-styled dispensationalist myself, I find the findings here suspect and only an attempt to find circumstantial controversy.

Lydia,
You made mention of "Amazing Tim LaHaye did not think of that one. :o)" about shutting down the internet. That was actually one of the story lines and used extensivly to develop the plot by working around govt. control of the internet.

Jeff said...

Scott, there's one lady who has no formal education in Hebrew or Greek and many consider her an expert. They are developing entire feminist agendas based on her.

So, Your an expert. :0)

Pastor Scott said...

Jeff,
Thanks for that vote of confidence. LOL

greg.w.h said...

The rendering of Baraq into Hebrew, Scott, misses the much more simple BRK/Barak which translates as blessing in both Hebrew and Arabic (both Semitic variants). Trying to invent what Jesus actually said requires one to deploy more credulity than is necessary for the typical Hollywood mockumentary. It's simply grasping at straws, no more, no less.

Southern Baptists have a penchant for anti-intellectualism. Some of it is based on intellectuals playing fast and loose with reason. But some of it is anti-reason. This screed falls into the latter category, and it plays to the "country bumpkin" image of Southern Baptists and the too many persimmons stereotype as well.

Unfortunately, I can more easily compare this "device" to the Trail of Blood and the Dispensational "chartology" that I saw growing up in West Texas. And while that isn't a condemnation of either Landmarkist or Dispensational 'scholarship' (such as it is), neither is either chart precisely a proof of scholastic excellence.

Similarly, Southern Baptists have voted in the majority both at the national convention and numerous state conventions to disallow those who consume alcohol to serve in any form of leadership. The label of legalism applies perfectly to that behavior as has been discussed here repeatedly.

I think we cannot condemn a particular thought strain because of the propensities it enables, but it is perfectly fair to notice those propensities, Dave, and the intellectual rigor that accompanies those who fall for the extremes and to discuss what about the thought strain enables the extremes. We certainly do that with Islam every chance we get in Southern Baptist life, after all. If it's sauce for the goose...

And boy, this gander--the video in the post--is well sauced, in my opinion...so to speak.

Greg Harvey

Thy Peace said...

Scott, there's one lady who has no formal education in Hebrew or Greek and many consider her an expert. They are developing entire feminist agendas based on her.

The lady in question is Suzanne McCarthy. Please also read this post: When Cultural Bias Leads to Interpretive Error, from Pastor Wade's blog.

Then you can determine if indeed Suzanne knows what she is talking about.

Mr. Hyde said...

@B Nettles
"Hickory Hammock...that's a device for being fat, dumb, and happy isn't it? Not saying that anyone at a church by that name is those things, but I'll let you decide."

I think perhaps you should have thought and prayed over this comment before you clicked "post comment." Desparaging a church that you know nothing about is not wise; they deserve it no more than your church (assuming you attend) deserves to be degraded in such a manner.

Lydia said...

It is

ExChristian.net.

The post is: Are evangelical Christians really that stupid?

It is a video of Frankie being interviewed on MSNBC.

Lydia said...

"Scott, there's one lady who has no formal education in Hebrew or Greek and many consider her an expert. They are developing entire feminist agendas based on her."

I do not know a lot of teen girls who read Greek for pleasure. Perhaps Sue could teach the 'credentialed' in Greek something?

Thy Peace said...

ExChristian.net > Are Evangelical Christians really this stupid?.

I think Franke Schaeffer is wrong here. He generalizes too much.

happy gram said...

if you had mentioned the appearance of this video on Glenn Beck's show in the beginning of your post, i would not even have taken the time to read the post or listen to the video. sheesh.

Jeff said...

If Glenn Beck mentioned I would watch it. He is one of the few honest men on TV.

Christiane said...

Mr. Schaeffer's perspective is that of someone who has 'left behind' his former views.

Here is the viewpoint of someone who has not abandoned his roots, by who is attempting to help people understand each other's feelings:

http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/imonk-101-why-do-they-hate-us

This gave me some insight into how a conservative Christian sees some of the perception problems in the Christian community as a whole.
Very revealing. I learned something reading this that I had not been aware of. Love, L's

Jeff said...

Lydia, Perhaps she wouldn't be in error if she would submit herself to teaching of a scholarly man. Like John Piper or someone who is a great scholar/pastor. :)

Wade Burleson said...

Jeff,

You wrote:

Perhaps she wouldn't be in error if she would submit herself to teaching of a scholarly man, like John Piper or some other great/scholar pastor

I submit to you that her submission to Jesus and her learning from Him should not--and will not--be superceded by any man.

Jeff said...

Good points! I move we do away with public education and let Jesus teach us all.

BTW, Wade take note of the :) at the end of all my posts before you send out your warriors. :)

Just having some fun...

Lydia said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
TheWayofCain said...

Preterism, a wonderful thing.

http://www.biblicalpreteristarchive.com/

Perhaps the king of Babylon is upset that Obama is stealing his nickname.

Isa 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

TheWayofCain said...

http://www.americanvision.org/the-american-vision-blog/did-jesus-identify-obama-as-the-antichrist/

B Nettles said...

Mr. Hyde,
Thanks for your comment. I agree that I shouldn't judge a church (which I did not do) simply based on a name and what the words in that name could be parsed to mean. The pastor of that church shouldn't disparage the President of the US based on his parsing of some words which he twisted to somehow get his name. I was simply making a point of the ridiculous nature of the video, NOT making a statement about the church. Your comment illustrates my point --> quit playing games with names.

Kevin M. Crowder said...

Anytime a pastor quotes Strong's you can almost be for certain that garbage is to follow. Now Dr. Strong was a brilliant man, but he developed a system which is dangerous in the hands of those who have no formal training in the biblical languages. And those who DO have formal training ought to realize the potential flaws in Strong's; at least enough to know better than to even open the book.

Anyone been keeping track of Wile-ee Coyote Drake lately?

I am wondering if it is a sin to remain associated with these people. I have my sins. But these guys take the cake.

I have been wondering lately...

You never hear of fighting and slander and other such inbred nonsense out of the CBF, or BGCM, or BGCT or... Just always with the conservatives.

I think I might be with Wade: "...give me more liberal leanings." At least they have a little love...


K

Jeff said...

kevin, that's naive.....

Tom Parker said...

Jeff:

Now why would you go and call Kevin naive. There is tremendous truth in his comment.

Mr. Hyde said...

@B Nettles
I better understand your point; however, I think you could have made that a little more clear in your original comment.

BTW, never said you were "judging" a church in my comment. ;)

Jeff said...

Tom, I'll let Scripture speak.

1 John 3:18---18Little children, we must not love in word or speech, but in deed and truth;(HCSB)


It's not just to say I want alittle more love....

The previous paragraph was a slap at brothers in Christ.

Tom Parker said...

Jeff:

Can you point me to the slap at brothers in Christ? I'm not sure what you are speaking of.

goob44 said...

Being from the "next town over" from Milton, FL, where Hickory Hammock Baptist is located, I've heard Pastor Gallups speak a number of times.
Some of what he has spoken about seems to me to be bizarre and over the top.
However, I do believe that he has been inspired by God to be the pastor of that church.
Unfortunately, all too often we can take God-given inspiration and run wild and loose with it, giving it our own particular spin.
He and Hickory Hammock are very fundamental in their beliefs, as you can ascertain from the church website www.hickoryhammockbaptist.org

Jeff said...

Tom, The reason you can't see it is that you have bias against the SBC.

onthebemainballston said...

This video us up there with the Muslim "takeover" video that was posted not too long ago.

Wade Burleson said...

onthebemainballston,

Gently disagree. This video twists Scripture. The Muslim video does not.

John Alexander said...

As if this video weren't enough:

http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?id=31277&ref=BPNews-RSSFeed0917

"After firing a round of blanks from a .50-caliber Browning machine gun, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary's president took his place behind the pulpit and initiated operation 'Taking the Hill.'"

I like big guns, too, but is chapel service the place for them?

Sigh...

Tom Parker said...

Jeff:

You said to me--"Tom, The reason you can't see it is that you have bias against the SBC."

Is that your final answer?

If it is you could not be more wrong about how I feel about the SBC.

Why not just answer my question?

Dr. Mike Kear said...

Jeff, I have to smile when the same fellow who says that Glenn Beck "is one of the few honest men on TV" calls someone else naïve.

Jeff said...

Tom, I did answer your question. Read Kevin's post---if you can't see what I am talking about...sorry.

It's there....

Jeff said...

It's better than thinking that CNN is honest, or that Jimmy Carter is really a baptist. :)

Tom Parker said...

Jeff:

Why do you have to always try and play games with me? Please just answer my question.

Debbie Kaufman said...

Mike Kear: :)

Shawn said...

Best advertisement for TAKING AND PAYING ATTENTION IN HEBREW CLASS!!
Idiot.

Shawn said...

I am an Associate Professor of Hebrew and Old Testament at a major Baptist Seminary in the US. I am fairly capable in Greek as well.

The Youtube video it totally bogus.

I make my lexical points using the standard Hebrew-English lexicon, Brown-Driver-Briggs (BDB). The newer Hebrew-Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament (HALOT) would concur with BDB.

First, he begins arguing that though Luke’s passage comes to us in Greek, it was originally spoken by Jesus in Aramaic. Probably true enough but we don’t have the Aramaic original and to speculate on the Aramaic vorlage of the Greek is problematic. We have the Greek and that is what we have to argue from.

But he quickly makes the argument not from Aramaic but from Hebrew, negating his previous point.

And then he makes some very horrible assertions.

First, Obama’s name is ‘Barak,’ not ‘Baraq.’ Yes, ‘baraq’ means ‘lightning’ and is the Hebrew word used for the Greek ‘astrapen’ (αστραπην) ‘barak’ is correct, not ‘baraq.’ Though the qof (ק) in Hebrew may be transliterated as a K in this case it is probably not so. ‘Barak’ (برق) is an Arabic term closely related to the Hebrew (ברך) which translates as ‘kneel’ or ‘bless.’ The turning of Barak in to Baraq is illegitimate and is only done to make his argument.

Next he translates ‘heights’ as ‘bama,’ which is the correct word in Hebrew (במה) and Greek (βαμα), for heights or high place. But, the text of Luke doesn’t say ‘heights,’ it says ‘heaven’, ‘ouranos’ (ουρανος), which cannot be mistaken for ‘high place’ nor does ‘high place’ serve as a substitute for heaven because the ‘high places’ in the OT were where the people should not have been worshipping.

And then he tries to make the Hebrew conjunction waw/vav (ו) mean ‘from.’ ‘From’ is a preposition and the Hebrew preposition translated ‘from’ is ‘min’ (מין). Waw doesn’t translates as ‘from’ and when used as the first letter attached to a word as the conjunction it does not come out as an ‘O.’

To sum up. He fudges badly on what the correct language is that we should be evaluating. The Greek of Luke says nothing like he implies—Satan is ‘as lightning’ is not ‘barak’ but ‘baraq,’ the ‘heights’ (bama) is actually ‘heaven’ (ouranos). The Hebrew word translated ‘from’ is ‘min’ and the Hebrew conjunction he wants to use is not transliterated as on ‘o.’

Hope this helps.

Shawn

cheerfuldougg said...

At first I thought this was a web joke - but I guess this guy is serious! I wonder how many nights he stayed up to come up with this foolishness! And then to proclaim it from the pulpit as a "Man of God" to impressionable Southern Baptists who are looking for every reason to hate the first (and they hope last) black man to rule our nation!
Has Mr. Gallup's Hebrew professor at NOBTC seen this?
I would laugh at it, expect I too am a SBC pastor in the Florida Panhandle. I am embarrassed by my brother and hope that we pastors are not all painted with the same brush!

Jeff said...

Tom, Why are you so hard headed?

Kevin: Anyone been keeping track of Wile-ee Coyote Drake lately?

Jeff: Evidence of name calling.

Wade's response---nothing.

Kevin: You never hear of fighting and slander and other such inbred nonsense out of the CBF, or BGCM, or BGCT or... Just always with the conservatives.

Jeff: More name calling.

But Kevin just wants more love. Trying giving some.

Wade's response: Nothing.

Jeff said...

Shawn, I would like to believe you but I need to run this by the feminist expert on languages before I can believe what you wrote.

After all she is the only one who knows Greek or Hebrew.

John Fariss said...

This guy's argument falls into about the same region as the "Bible code" people--those who claim that there are hidden codes in the Hebrew text. Of course, that works with an unpointed text, so you can supply whatever viowels you want to, and by assuming that there is only one way the text can be written on a given page. Then again, I've heard someone came up with the same sort of "predictions" based on Shakespeare. Either way--BUNK! And I hope Rev. Gallops reads this. More than that, I hope he reads Shawn's comment. More than that, I hope he spends more time in prayer with God and ministry in His Name, and less in chasing rabbits.

John

Tom Parker said...

Jeff:

You said to me--"Tom, Why are you so hard headed?"

That we can agree upon, I am most definitely hard headed.

You said to Shawn--"Shawn, I would like to believe you but I need to run this by the feminist expert on languages before I can believe what you wrote.

After all she is the only one who knows Greek or Hebrew."

You accuse me of being anti-SBC; you appear to be anti-women because of your wise guy remarks such as noted above.

I ask you, please stop it. It is very unbecoming of you.

Jeff said...

Tom, I wish I had not wrote what I wrote to Shawn because it allowed you to dodge the clear facts I presented to you about Kevin's post.

Please don't play games and respond.

Tom Parker said...

Jeff:

You said to me--"Tom, I wish I had not wrote what I wrote to Shawn because it allowed you to dodge the clear facts I presented to you about Kevin's post.

Please don't play games and respond."

Respond to what?

You are the one dodging. Are you anti-women?

Joe Blackmon said...

And then to proclaim it from the pulpit as a "Man of God" to impressionable Southern Baptists who are looking for every reason to hate the first (and they hope last) black man to rule our nation!

Of course, the only reason ANYONE opposes Obama is because he's black. I mean, that is just so obvious. It couldn't possibly be that he is the most pro-abortion president EVER who, in his career as a senator, lobbied to introduce a bill that would prevent medical care to be provided to babies that survived an abortion. It couldn't possibly have anything to do with his lifting the ban to use federal money for abortions overseas. There's no way Christians oppose him because he is strongly for giving gay federal employees the same marriage benefits that truly married couples have.

You're right. It's so clear to me now. It's all about race.

Jeff said...

Tom, You have not answered my question. Do I need to re-post it?

You ask for proof that Kevin's post slam people.

You are playing game. I refuse to answer questions until you answer my question.

cheerfuldougg said...

Joe,
Ouch, seems like I hit a nerve Joe (re "its all about race"). Do you now or have you ever lived in the deep south? If so, you would know that just about everything is "about race" in one way or another here. And my experience (as a white southern male), is that those who mostly loudly proclaim they are NOT RACIST, are usually the most racist of all!
I am certainly not saying that race is the ONLY reason anyone opposes Obama. But the rabid hatred that I see for our President among many whites here in the deep south goes far beyond issues to something much deeper. You may not be racist (I don't know you), but to deny racism is behind at least some (maybe much) of the anti-Obama rhetoric is naive at best and just plain dishonest at the worst.

Lydia said...

"And then to proclaim it from the pulpit as a "Man of God" to impressionable Southern Baptists who are looking for every reason to hate the first (and they hope last) black man to rule our nation!"

Are you suggesting that opposing any of Obama's policies is racist?

But that would be similar to what Obama was taught by Jeremiah Wright for 20 years about white people.

Quite frankly, I would have voted for Condi Rice over any white guys the Repubs put forward in the primary. And I would have made that decision based upon policy alone.

Lydia said...

"And my experience (as a white southern male), is that those who mostly loudly proclaim they are NOT RACIST, are usually the most racist of all!"

So, if one is called a racist and defends themselves as not being a racist, that only means they the most racist of all?

Logic does not matter as long as one gets to make the rules on such things.

Joe Blackmon said...

cheerful doug,

I'll try to type this REALLY slowly for you so it'll be easier for you to read since you completely missed my point. I most certainly have lived in the deep south all my life. Yes, racism exists. Of course, it doesn't exist in any other part of the country I know. I mean, everywhere else in America, all people are treated the same regardless of their race.

Second of all, I never ONCE said that NONE of the critics of Obama were motivated by race. The point, which any reasonably intelligent person would be able to see, is that there are valid, biblical reasons to criticize Obama on his policies. The entire reason you, Jimmy Carter, and others are belly aching about racisim is NOT Because you care about him being treated fairly, it's to dismiss the sound, solid arguements of Christians against his policies.

Joe Blackmon said...

I would have voted for Condi Rice over any white guys the Repubs put forward in the primary. And I would have made that decision based upon policy alone.

I'd have sold a kidney to see her in White House. She would have made a great president. But I don't like Obama and I say I'm not a racist so that proves I'm a racist. Great logic there, dougywougy.

cheerfuldougg said...

Lydia,

You missed my point. My point is: People will not accuse me of being racist, if I truly am not. If people are frequently accusing me of that, then I should take a hard look into my heart (instead of angrily defending myself against the charge). If its not true, then no defense is needed. If is it true, then no defense is credible.

onthebemainballston said...

Wade,

By saying it is up there with the Muslim video I mean that it plays hard and fast with facts. Of course this video twists scripture, but this video also follows the Muslim video clip trickery with jumping to conclusions and and using misinformation.

Jeff said...

Logic with Obama and female pastors is out the
window because of feelings.

Lydia said...

I think you folks should be more forgiving and pitch in and help David in his efforts to rid the world or porn.

September 24, 2009 2:40 PM

Your point is still illogical. It means that a group like Jeremiah Wright's can call folks racist for 20 years and it has to be true because they say so.

It has the opposite effect you are looking for. There IS racism but it is diluted because so many in high positions scream they are being discriminated against all the time. It actually hurts those who really are being discriminated against. The screams of the high and mighty drown it out. And cause people to say, not so. Like the boy who cried wolf.

Shawn said...

A quick question/clarification--are you a racist because you voted against Obama because he is black or are you a racist because you voted for him because he is black?

Darrell said...

Brother Kevin,

Amen and Amen! You have grown. Just ignore the headknockers

"You will be known by your love"

Our Saviour/Creator said that and He wasn't naive.

Oh, He drank wine also.

Lord help us all
Darrell

Jeff said...
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Jeff said...
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Jeff said...

Tom, Where did I call you hard-headed?

Thy Peace said...
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Anonymous said...

{For dessert I dish up this morsel that I found on the net. John}

Pretrib Rapture Pride

by Bruce Rockwell

Pretrib rapture promoters like Thomas Ice give the impression they know more than the early Church Fathers, the Reformers, the greatest Greek New Testament scholars including those who produced the KJV Bible, the founders of their favorite Bible schools, and even their own mentors!
Ice's mentor, Dallas Sem. president John Walvoord, couldn't find anyone holding to pretrib before 1830 - and Walvoord called John Darby and his Brethren followers "the early pretribulationists" (RQ, pp. 160-62). Ice belittles Walvoord and claims that several pre-1830 persons, including "Pseudo-Ephraem" and a "Rev. Morgan Edwards," taught a pretrib rapture. Even though the first one viewed Antichrist's arrival as the only "imminent" event, Ice (and Grant Jeffrey) audaciously claim he expected an "imminent" pretrib rapture! And Ice (and John Bray) have covered up Edwards' historicism which made a pretrib rapture impossible! Google historian Dave MacPherson's "Deceiving and Being Deceived" for documentation on these and similar historical distortions.
The same pretrib defenders, when combing ancient books, deviously read "pretrib" into phrases like "before Armageddon," "before the final conflagration," and "escape all these things"!
BTW, the KJV translators' other writings found in London's famed British Library (where MacPherson has researched) don't have even a hint of pretrib rapturism. Is it possible that Ice etc. have found pretrib "proof" in the KJV that its translators never found?
Pretrib merchandisers like Ice claim that nothing is better pretrib proof than Rev. 3:10. They also cover up "Famous Rapture Watchers" (on Google) which shows how the greatest Greek NT scholars of all time interpreted it.
Pretrib didn't flourish in America much before the 1909 Scofield Bible which has pretribby "explanatory notes" in its margins. Not seen in the margins was jailed forger Scofield's criminal record throughout his life that David Lutzweiler has documented in his recent book "The Praise of Folly" which is available online.
Biola University's doctrinal statement says Christ's return is "premillennial" and "before the Tribulation." Although universities stand for "academic freedom," Biola has added these narrow, restrictive phrases - non-essentials the founders purposely didn't include in their original doctrinal statement when Biola was just a small Bible institute! And other Christian schools have also belittled their founders.
Ice, BTW, has a "Ph.D" issued by a tiny Texas school that wasn't authorized to issue degrees! Ice now says that he's working on another "Ph.D" via the University of Wales in Britain. For light on the degrees of Ice's scholarliness, Google "Bogus degree scandal prompts calls to wind up University of Wales," "Thomas Ice (Bloopers)," "be careful in polemics - Peripatetic Learning," and "Walvoord Melts Ice." Also Google "Thomas Ice (Hired Gun)" - featured by media luminary Joe Ortiz on his Jan. 30, 2013 "End Times Passover" blog.
Other fascinating Google articles include "The Unoriginal John Darby," "X-raying Margaret," "Edward Irving in Unnerving," "Pretrib Rapture Politics," "Pretrib Rapture Secrets," "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty," "Pretrib Hypocrisy," "Pretrib Rapture Secrecy," and "Roots of Warlike Christian Zionism" - most from the author of "The Rapture Plot," the most accurate documentation on pretrib rapture history.
Can anyone guess who the last proud pretrib rapture holdout will be?