"I went to Jerusalem to become acquainted (Gk. istoria) with Cephas" - Paul's words from Galatians 1:18.

The New Covenant: Christian Living at It's Finest

One of the best things we can do for others is to teach and model the New Covenant. The word "covenant" in Hebrew is [beriyth], and in Greek it is [diatheke], often translated "testament." Both original words literally mean "a promise or solemn oath" (See Genesis 26:3). We help others when they hear us teach, and they see us live, resting in God's solemn promise of faithful goodness toward us - regardless of our performance, obedience or commitment.

In order for Christians to understand this radical way of thinking and living, they must first understand that there two kinds of covenants God enters into as described by Scripture. First, God has often entered into covenants that are based on a mutual agreement, so that God makes a promise to bless based upon certain requirements being met by the recepient of the promise. But there is a second kind of covenant or "promise" that God enters into, and fulfills, with no requirements or necessary stipulations from the recepient of the promise. This kind of covenant is called "an unconditional covenant." Unconditional covenants are entered into because of the mere grace of the promise maker.

Though there are several conditional covenants that God has made with His people throughout history as recorded in the Old Testament, there is one major conditional covenant, under which all other conditional covenants were made. The writer of Hebrews officially calls this covenant that God initiated with His people "The Old Covenant." God said, "If you will obey me . . . then I will bless you. If you disobey me, then I will curse you," and all Israel agreed. But the writer of Hebrews tells us that this covenant has been done away with and replaced with a "New Covenant" (Hebrews 9:15) between God and both Jews and Gentiles - all who will trust His Son. This "New Covenant" is a "better" covenant with "better" promises; promises that are unconditional in nature.

A believer in Jesus Christ is the recepient of promises from God that are based on His mere grace, and have nothing to do with the performance or commitment of the participants. Simply "look to Christ and live." Unfortunately, many pastors do harm to their congregations by not understanding themselves the differences between the two covenants. A New Covenant preacher will tell God's people what God has done for us through His Son, our Saviour Jesus Christ. New covenant messages and ministries will not be on "if you will . . . then God will . . . " but rather, "look what God has promised to do, and will do, for those who trust Him." It is to this ministry, with this message, that Jesus has called all minister to others the good news.

But our High Priest [Jesus Christ] has been given a ministry that is far superior to the ministry of those who serve under the old laws, for he is the one who guarantees for us a better covenant with God, based on better promises. If the first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need for a second covenant to replace it. But God himself found fault with the old one when he said: “The day will come, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah…” (Heb. 8:6-8 NLT)


I was once asked why our church did not have an active "Promise Keepers" movement within it, and I responded that when emphasis is on "The Promise Keeper," meaning God, then we would be involved. I have found that when ministries are built on the promises of man, they always tend to fail in the end.

However, it is not my desire to focus on the specifics of how a ministry implements New Covenant teaching in terms of tithing, church attendance, Christian commitment, etc . . . There are plenty of web sites that delve into this, including several articles by my own father, Paul Burleson.

The purpose of this particular post is to simply show that under the New Covenant there is a particular characteristic that defines God's people. We are not defined by our "obedience to any law" such as the law of Sabbath keeping, or the law of sacrifice, or the law of Temple worship, or the law of abstinence, or any other Old Covenant law, church law, or man-made law. Rather, we are defined as a people by our desire to solely and completely fulfill one law - the law from Jesus Christ Himself, called "the royal law of love."

Jesus calls this His "new commandment" (John 13:39). It is "new" in that it is a "new" commandment for the "new" man whose been given a "new" name and sings a "new" song as he lives a "new" life where all things are "new" (Rev. 21:5). It is this radical commandment to love one another - to boldly, liberally and continually love people - that is THE IDENTIFYING MARK of God's people. This does not mean that a New Covenant believer cannot be a person of strong convictions,,, but it does mean that love for people is to pervade all he/she does.

One of the best ways to measure whether or not we are living the Christian life to its fullest and its finest is to measure whether our hearts are truly filled with love for people - people who disagree with us, people who are different than us, people who are a delight to us. Do we rejoice when others are blessed? Are we glad when others succeed? Do we do what we do because we love?

These are questions I ask myself almost daily.

In His Grace,


Wade Burleson

133 comments:

Preachin' Jesus, Luvin' People said...

WoW! I get to be first. (if I hurry)

In one of my seminary classes the prof was teaching on this subject. He said "if we are judged by our Saviour on just these two things (love God with all our heart and our Neighbor as ourself) then on judgement day most of us will lie dead in the street".

I thought that was a bold and powerful statement, maybe a little off the mark! However, after all these years I see what he was getting at.

I struggle daily with my own black heart and many times want to give up on people and live on a mountain as a monk. However, just my recognizing my own black heart is a work of our Lord.

Sadly, I find the most difficult folks are usually church members who have more of a religious spirit than a Spirit from our Lord.

To love someone for no other reason than just to love them for Jesus is, at times, a great task.

Lord, give me strength.

Thanks Wade, I needed a reminder

grace
wtreat

New BBC Open Forum said...

I was once asked why our church did not have an active "Promise Keepers" movement within it, and I responded that when emphasis is on "The Promise Keeper," meaning God, then we would be involved. I have found that when ministries are built on the promises of man, they always tend to fail in the end.

So true. Glad to hear that.

Whatever happened to the Promise Keepers?

The Strange Decade of the Promise Keepers

Benji Ramsaur said...

Love the topic Wade.

Two Quotes from 1st generation Particular Baptists that go along with your post:

"And it is a very great mistake in foolish profesors, to think that they may buy, that is, bargain with God for Christ and grace upon the terms of the old covenant of works..." [Hanserd Knollys in "The Parable of the Kingdom of Heaven"]

"By the first Testament is not here meant any covenant made with Adam, or any testament given to Adam before his fall, but the legal and typical covenant and testament made with Israel, and given to Israel, in the days of Moses:" [John Spilsbury in "The Peculiar Interest of the Elect in the Death of Christ, and His Saving Grace"]

--Old Covenant "of works"

--"legal"...covenant

Thy Peace said...

This is indeed Good News.

For people who are unable to Love and struggle with it daily, do not fret.

Do only one thing. That is to trust Our Lord Jesus Christ and live in Him, as a child implicitly trusts a Father or a Mother. Yes God is both. Father and Mother.

Out of this Love will flow, will be created, will pour out of you in abundance.

It is this simple and complicated. For it took me a long time to arrive at this understanding. For I tend to be stubborn, liking to see things my way and have failed miserably. But better late than never.

Stephen said...

Wade, thanks for this timely message. My 16 year old son is really struggling with Christianity and we were fortunate enough to have a long discussion yesterday. I was trying to convey some message like this....and now you have given me a gift that I can pass on to him. Pray for us.

jasonk said...

I was so encouraged by your post today, Wade. It is one of the greatest needs of the church today--getting back to what we really believe and should be practicing, that being the New Testament.

I recently posted an article on my blog that was inspired by a conversation with a couple of people at church, about my tattoos. One lady looked at me and smugly asked, "What about Leviticus 19:28??" The details of our conversation are posted at my site, so I won't go into it here, but only a few days after that conversation, I was driving through Missouri, and passed a church called "Congregation of YHWH." It occurred to me that we are all a lot like that church, reverting back to the practice of first century Christians, mixing Old Testament teaching with New Testament belief, and messing everything up in the process.

The key word, as you pointed out, is love. When we make it our goal to love people, no matter who they are, or what lifestyle they choose to live, we earn the right to influence them. I have found that it works much better than trying to force upon them our system of beliefs, which they cannot comprehend anyway unless the Spirit allows them to.

Thanks again for the uplifting post.

ezekiel said...

True indeed that all things are now lawfull

1Co 10:23 All things are legitimate [permissible--and we are free to do anything we please], but not all things are helpful (expedient, profitable, and wholesome). All things are legitimate, but not all things are constructive [to character] and edifying [to spiritual life].

The righteousness of God has now been revealed apart from the law.(Romans 3:21)

But we don't overthrow or make it of no effect or make it a dead letter. We confirm it, uphold it and establish it.(Romans 3:31)

Gal 6:2 Bear (endure, carry) one another's burdens and troublesome moral faults, and in this way fulfill and observe perfectly the law of Christ (the Messiah) and complete what is lacking [in your obedience to it].

Mat 22:40 These two commandments sum up and upon them depend all the Law and the Prophets.

Rom 13:9 The commandments, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet (have an evil desire), and any other commandment, are summed up in the single command, You shall love your neighbor as [you do] yourself. [Exod. 20:13-17; Lev. 19:18.]

RRR said...

Wade,

You write, "A New Covenant preacher will tell God's people what God has done for us through His Son, our Saviour Jesus Christ. New covenant messages and ministries will not be on "if you will . . . then God will . . . " but rather, "look what God has promised to do, and will do, for those who trust Him."

I like this. But this portrayal of the process of being saved is "conditional".

There is no "unconditional" covenant, new or old. The New Covenant conditions are as you say, "for those who trust Him." and not for those who trust in their own ability to successfully obey laws and rules.

The New Covenant is "unconditional" in the sense that this applies to everyone, regardless of how unworthy we are or how unsuccessful we are in obeying rules and laws in an effort to save ourselves. It is a matter of one choosing to trust in God's way, Jesus Christ.

Alan Paul said...

Wade-

I found the verses in Hebrews you mention read differently in the NLT than in other translations. In the NLT, verse 8 seems to say God found fault with the old convenant. In the NIV, KJV and NASB the text seems to say that the fault was with the people.

I know it doesn't negate the overall thrust of the passage (that there is a better way - the new covenant) but could you clarify this issue for me?

Benji Ramsaur said...

Wade, I like this statement of yours.

"We are not defined by our 'obedience to any law' such as the law of Sabbath keeping, or the law of sacrifice, or the law of Temple worship, or the law of abstinence, or any other Old Covenant law, church law, or man-made law."

However, on this statement of yours, I think I would articulate it differently.

"Rather, we are defined as a people by our desire to solely and completely fulfill one law - the law from Jesus Christ Himself, called 'the royal law of love.'

It seems to me that the law of love in John 13 is the "fundamental" law for how believers should relate to each other. However, surely there is more than one law in view in Matthew 28:20 for example.

I might be misunderstanding what you are saying though.

Anyway, I believe the sufficiency of the sacrifice of Christ is held to in the sense that evangelicals do not believe we should go back to [the O.T. practice of] sacrificing animals.

But I wish the sufficiency of the the law of Christ was held to as well in the sense that we should not go back to the law of Moses.

Christ's sacrifice is seen as sufficient. Christ's law is not.

I believe Jesus really should be held to as the "only" lawgiver.

Benji Ramsaur said...

I want to make sure I'm not misunderstood by anybody.

I am not advocating a mere "red letter" faith and practice.

I believe the revelatory word of Christ ultimately comes through the Apostles [John 16:13-14].

Accordingly, it is not justifiable, in my view, to try and pit the black letters of the Apostle Paul with the red letters of Jesus for example.

linda said...

Excellent post, leaving me with a couple of comments and a question.

Comment 1: Now I know why so many songs we are singing at my church trouble my spirit and I cannot sing them. They are songs about "how much I love God and how faithful I will be to Him." I do love Him, and strive to be faithful. However, I much prefer to sing songs about HIS love, HIS faithfulness, and HIS actions toward me. I fear for unbelievers coming in, hearing the message of the songs we sing, and leaving because they KNOW that in and of themselves they can never love God and be faithful to Him.

Comment 2: I do believe a part of loving our neighbor as ourselves is to be bold in stating the truth. I believe that even if one is extremely humble and loving, there will be times when the hearer perceives truth as insulting. We must get our heads around that being "ok".

And now my question--anyone have a good source of hymns or praise songs that are all about God and His work for and to and in us rather than about our work for and to Him?

Debbie Kaufman said...

And it is this teaching that radically changed my Christian life. It's enhanced my reading of the scriptures radically.

Lydia said...

This is one of the things I am so thankful for...living in the New Covenant.

Christiane said...

Based on a prayer from the Anglican Christian Tradition:

Keep us from the dangers,
From the proud thoughts within.
That form our righteous judgments
On our brothers' 'greater' sin.
And, seeing not, in cold contempt,
That sin that was our own?

Father, grant to us,
that with our shared pain,
we may come together
to kneel, as loving brothers before Thy Mercy Throne.

Former FBC Insider said...

"One of the best ways to measure whether or not we are living the Christian life to its fullest and its finest is to measure whether our hearts are truly filled with love for people - people who disagree with us, people who are different than us, people who are a delight to us. Do we rejoice when others are blessed? Are we glad when others succeed? Do we do what we do because we love?

These are questions I ask myself almost daily."

Wade, how refreshing it is to hear a Pastor with your humility and with such a loving spirit.

I wonder if you'd ever be asked to teach on this subject at the Pastor's Conference at FBCJ?
: )
I've never heard anything like this since Mac's been in charge there. We were used to having a big "HAH!!" at the end of most of his rants.

I am sincerely thankful for the reminder that there are some loving Pastors still out there.
You're a rare breed in my neck of the woods.

You have blessed me today!

B Nettles said...

Wade,
Thanks for talking about covenant and its beautiful concepts. If I am in covenant with God through Christ and the person with whom I disagree is also in covenant with God through Christ, it is impossible for him to be my enemy because he is not God's enemy. All my dealings must be done with humility, brotherly kindness, and love. That kind of expected behavior makes living in "covenant" a hard thing to do. It really makes me focus on the grace of God in dealing with me, to redeem me even when I really was His enemy.

My favorite earthly picture of covenant is David's dealing with Mephibosheth, son of Jonathan.

Texan said...

Wade,

If you're not going to blog about SBC events any longer, I would appreciate it if you would delete posts that take your words and always make them apply to specific SBC pastors (such as Steve Gaines and Mac Brunson). I do get weary of this constant sniping.

Former FBC Insider said...

Come on Texan, it was a testimony, my own testimony. My post was also a praise of encouragement for Wade. What you call sniping is my broken heart. I wish my experience was not so, but it is. I'm grateful that Wade and other sites like his are open to the truth, even when it hurts.

"to love even when others disagree with you"... That was my favorite part.

Thy Peace said...

Pastor Wade, rather than deleting your posts, maybe you should copyright them. And prosecute these evil-doers, who clip and paste your words on other blogs and make it appear you are attacking other pastors. Also maybe you can get Google and Comcast/Verizon to provide you the names of these miscreants for these dastardly deeds. What a shame!

I am one of those culprits. May God have mercy on my soul.

Thy Peace said...

For the record, if I post your text on other blogs, I always link to the originating post and never modify your text. Also, the text is always in italics, emphasizing that this text came from the link.

Also, this text is never used to put words in other peoples mouths.

It is done to encourage others to read your posts.

Greg Alford said...

RRR,

“It is a matter of one choosing…”

Is not this the doctrine that is known as “Decisional Regeneration”???

Which basically teaches that if you make the correct “choice” you will be Born Again / Saved / Regenerated. So if one is saved because “they” made the right choice then is not their salvation a work and no longer of Grace?

Grace Always,

solomon said...

Nice post. It's a shame that one of the responders seems to have become so hardened that she thinks the demise of the promise keepers is more comment and research worthy than God's love. I hope she gets over that some day.

We are not defined by our "obedience to any law" such as the law of Sabbath keeping, or the law of sacrifice, or the law of Temple worship, or the law of abstinence, or any other Old Covenant law, church law, or man-made law. Rather, we are defined as a people by our desire to solely and completely fulfill one law

Had I written this excellent post I would perhaps have phrased this a little differently. Rather than saying we are defined by our desire to fulfill one law, I would have said that we are defined by our love for God and others and that our actions meet the requirements God has set.

I don't want to be a man who simply obeys the law, I'd rather be a man who has been transformed into someone who wouldn't break it even if he was unaware of its existence.

Just a thought.

Thy Peace said...

Off Topic:

EFF > DeepLinks > Help Protesters in Iran: Run a Tor Bridge or a Tor Relay.
As turmoil over the disputed election in Iran continues, many techs are trying to find ways to help Iranian citizens safely communicate and receive information despite the barriers being established by Iranian authorities. One tactic that even moderately tech-savvy Internet users can employ is to set up a Tor relay or a Tor bridge.

Please note, the above will also help you and others to circumvent subpoenas and Det. Hinson and others who wish to out Anonymous posters. The police seem confident that they can identify even Tor users. This remains to be seen. They will probably subpoena the Tor server owners. But remember this system changes paths every minute. If one immerses completely from start to finish in Tor, my belief is it would be extremely difficult to pin you down. Please note the limitations.

The more diverse people who use Tor, the more difficult it is for authorities to tag you. Also you can help by setting up your own Tor Bridge or a Relay. It is not that difficult. Help users around the world who wish to remain Anonymous.

Christiane said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Christiane said...

Hi GREG ALFORD,

I have always believed that God has made us in His image and that this includes that we should have the ability to make conscious choices, as He does.

I have tried to understand your perspective. It appears to be some kind of 'determinism' where the 'believer' is 'created that way' as a gift of grace. Which then, rules out the possibility that the creature possesses the conscious free choice that would exist, if that creature were made in the image of God.

If a person accepted this belief, then it appears that there would also be other creatures not made in God's image,
who are given no opportunity for salvation if they were created in such a way as to have no free inclination to accept or to reject a 'gift of grace' that wouldn't be offered by the Creator anyway.

How do you reconcile your beliefs with the Scriptural teachings that we ARE made in the image of God, with all that this implies?

Please know that I may not at all be understanding you correctly, as my knowledge of determinism stems from rabbinical teachings, and I have no understanding of the Calvinist Faith. If I have not understood you, I acknowledge the responsibility for that completely. Love, L's

Thy Peace said...

Former FBC Insider:

Please check out this comment I made in another post on Pastor Wade's blog. This contains links to sermon series of Pastor Wade, that are good and relevant to this post. God bless you.

Comment with links.

Thy Peace said...

New BBC Open Forum (NASS):


Thanks for the links you provided. From the first link is this excerpt from the end of the article:

In a broader sense, the rise and fall of the Promise Keepers provides insight into American culture. Americans suffer from what might be best described as a collective form of attention deficit disorder. Our society changes with such rapidity that it is a real challenge for any group to command sustained attention in the public eye. Consider the late artist Andy Warhol’s prophetic reference to the fleeting “fifteen minutes of fame” that he predicted would characterize popularity in modern America. In many respects, Warhol was right. Social life in twenty–first century America seems to be more liquid than solid.

By diving headlong into the turbulent waters of American culture, the Promise Keepers invariably lent themselves to comparisons with the world of entertainment. And the consumers that rule the entertainment world are notorious for their fickle tastes and their insatiable appetites for increasingly more spectacular forms of excitement. The problem here is one of continually having to “up the ante.” Of course, this is not to say that fickleness or an insatiable appetite for entertainment dictated the Promise Keeper men’s reactions to conferences. The stated purpose is something different—changing hearts, winning souls. But, as the movement’s signature event, Promise Keeper conferences were designed to be spectacles. They were intended to entertain as well edify. And the problem with a spectacle is it needs to be outdone by something more spectacular and more stimulating the next time around. Thus, the fate of the Promise Keepers sheds important light on both the Christian men’s movement that it represented, and the society in which we all live. The bell has tolled for the Promise Keepers. But, living in such a time of rapid change, it also tolls for us all.


When men instead of God becomes the Promise Keeper, they can not keep promises. Only God sustains, only God provides, only God fulfills, only God loves unconditionally and only God truly nurtures us.

It is sad to see some of the clergy insists on being the priestly class to intercede for us, completely ignoring NC.

Paul Burleson said...

This is a small thing, but like most small things, it can have profound impact.

The law of "Loving your neighbor as yourself" was the old law given in the Old Covenant as recorded various places including Lev. 19:18.
When Jesus said "A new commandment give I you.." [John 13:34] He was NOT giving a new commandment to love, which was already given, but rather HOW to love someone " As I have loved you." [Not as you love yourself.]

When Jesus asked the question about the "greatest commandment" He was asking the Jewish leaders and got their answer which was the Old Covenant law and they were correct.

But as Wade's post points out our standard of law and ethics always flows from what our new Lawgiver..The Lord Jesus.. says and has already done.

So..the Old Covenant was.."If you do then I will bless" but the New Covenant is " I have blessed you in my Grace work therefore you are empowered to be because I have." Be what? Whatever. Loving. Forgiving. [etc.]

This is the basis of our loving, forgiving, serving, living. It is from an accomplished and finished work that we live out in faith because He is our very life.

He is our New Covenant standard of behavior. He is our New Covenant Sacrificial ratifier, our New Covenant High Priest who laid down His life willingly, our New Covenant Law Giver who writes His law in our hearts, and our New Covenant King who rules and reigns over His Kingdom.

Hebrews 8:13 Amplified.."When God speaks of a new covenant or agreement, He makes the first one obsolete and out of use. And what is obsolete--out of use and annulled--is ripe for disappearance and to be dispensed with altogether."

The greatest tragedy I can think of [hyperbole I'm sure] is for a believer to try to live an Old Covenant lifestyle while in a New Covenant relationship. But, unfortunately, that is much of Christianity today in many places.

John Fariss said...

Christine,

Although a Baptist, I am not a Calvinist, as many know from my other comments at various times. And I know that my Calvinist friends will disagree with what I am about to say.

I think you made a very astute observation when you said, "It appears to be some kind of 'determinism'."

I think that all of us operate with presuppositions, many of which we never articulate, even to ourselves; but they are real, and shape our perceptions, our thought processes, and our "logic" to a significant degree.

John Calvin lived in the 16th Century; his followers, some of whom took his system farther than he did, lived primarily in the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries. What else was going on in that period? The Enlightenment: the work of significant scientists like Tycho de Brahe, Johanne Kepler, Rene Descartes, Isaac Newton, Gottfried Leibniz, etc. The physics of the era can be summed up in that one word you used: determinism! If you just know enough data, it was believed possible to predict "everything" based on that (a perspective which remained dominent until the advent of quantum mechanics and the Heisenburg Uncetainity Principle).

It seems to me that the presuppositions of Calvinism are (1) the classical physics of the Enlightenment applied philosophically/theologically, and (2) that the Bible can be used as a Book of Logical Premises from which logical conclusions can be drawn. While I hardly deny the Truth of the Holy Writ, I maintain it should be interpreted from a 1st Century Middle Eastern perspective, not a 16th Century European one.

Of course, my opinion and a couple of bucks can get you a cup of coffee at most fast food joints.

John

feetxxxl said...

the essence of the new covenant can be summed up in the three commandments of love. the second commandment being the summation of all new covenant law. the law being for making believers CONSCIOUS......CONSCIOUS of embracing the 2nd commamndment. by living the three commandments we do much more than follow the law we do as christ did, we fulfill it.(fulfillment of the law is love) all sin, in regards to the law, being that which comes against the 2nd commandment.

feetxxxl said...

if king david had loved his neighbor as himself he would never had stepped in what he did with bathsheba.

feetxxxl said...

bottom line............. this is why homosexuality is not a sin, it doesnt come aginst the 2nd commandment(love your neighbor as yourself)

Christiane said...

Thank you JOHN FARISS,

I am still, and probably always will be, confused about Calvinism.

'Determinism', in science and in medical discussions, I do have some acquaintance with.

It's like this: does our brain chemistry and our neurological system determine our behaviors,
or is there a factor, that is not physical, at work in us, that has not been pre-programmed: a consciousness? a soul?

This is a subject of much scientific study.

No wonder I don't understand Calvinism: it's a logic system !
:)

Thanks again,
Love, L's

P.S. I'm glad you mentioned middle-eastern view point of the first century: Christianity spread into Rome, Alexandria, AND Antioch. So often, we Westerners only see our faith through the lens of the 'western tradition', and we forget about the richness of the eastern traditions of Christianity. That is a mistake for sure. We lose so much.
Love, L's

RRR said...

Greg Alford said…
RRR, “It is a matter of one choosing…”

Greg says: "Is not this the doctrine that is known as “Decisional Regeneration”???

Which basically teaches that if you make the correct “choice” you will be Born Again / Saved / Regenerated. So if one is saved because “they” made the right choice then is not their salvation a work and no longer of Grace?"

I understand what you are saying, Greg. It is a dangerous thing to assume that we have anything to do with our receiving a “gift” made available by God’s sovereign grace. Certainly, salvation is not something that we earn in any sense.

One could say that to “receive” a gift would in fact cause it to no longer be a “gift” but rather something that you earned by "receiving" it.

Before you accept something that is freely offered there is a measure of trust involved in believing that the one offering the gift is actually able to provide it, etc. If someone offers a convicted felon a pardon the felon always has the choice to accept it or walk away and continue in his own degradation. But if he trusts the motives of the one offering to bail him out and believes that the donor can indeed provide the remedy, he accepts it and benefits from the generosity of the one saving him.

Over and over again Scripture explains that it is a gift, freely offered, but one must believe, or trust, in the one who offers it in order to receive it. I don’t believe that trusting qualifies any of us as “working” to earn the “gift”.

I suspect that you and I are very close to having the same position on this. Too bad we can't just sit together with a cup of coffee and explore these God things.

Thy Peace said...

I finally found the answer why Pastor Wade decided to not to engage politics for the next year.

The answer lies in his recent sermon:

#21. Perfect Love Casts Out Fear (I John 4:17-19), of the series I John: The Christian and Complete Joy. If you watch the video, it's titled "Perfect Love Casts Out Fear", June 7, 2009 - Part 21 of series (1 Jn. 4:17-19).

Very profound sermon. I understand it and at the same time I do not understand it. I probably will not tire of listening to it many times, for I would slowly absorb the message.

feetxxxl said...

that's it isnt it. for 2000 years believers have stuggled to make new laws or reaffirm old ones. and every time, their being led by the law creates new violations of the 2nd commandment.(romans says we are led by and serve of the spirit)

1500 years of burning witches, 1700 years of supporting ethnic slavery, both affirmed in lev. 2000 years of antisemetism in spite of romans 10 and 11(could no one read for 2000 years)

the fact homosexuality is even any issue shows that we have yet to fully embrace the new covenant, believers continue to place themselves under regulation as in deut 28. rather than heed christ words "we will recognize them by their fruit........their fruit of the spirit, the cry being .... "no, we will recognize them by our understanding of the law. (the law of lev about slavery or burning witches). we will engage in antisemetism being led by what the law says about non believers.


in 1john1, john came to know that christ was the messiah thru "that which we have heard, which we have looked at, which we have seen with our eyes and our HANDS HAVE TOUCHED....... this is fellowship. if we trust in the spirit of felowship we will trust in being christ rather than talking about him. how do you have fellowship when differences about law trump honoring another's life experiences and sincerity of heart. fellowship, where our entire interest is to share the spirit of christ, trusting that the spirit will show all that needs to be seen........and the seeing will be an act of unity of christ............ the seeing being not dictated by time, but instead by eternal growth.

Robert said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Stephen said...

Greg,

I have heard this opinion before, but responding to the call of Christ (through the Holy Spirit) can be viewed as a decision but not a work. I do not think this is in opposition to the sovereignty of God, because God, in his sovereignty, chose to allow us to accept or reject Him. The work that makes the decision possible is the work of the Holy Spirit, thus there is no credit due to any person for accepting what God has offered. No one is worthy and no one would have even been convicted of the need for a decision without the Holy Spirit. Yet, one could conclude that each person must make a decision to accept or reject the conviction of the Holy Spirit and the redemption provided by Christ. I believe all of this is just as consistent with scripture as the Doctrines of Grace, which is to say that I think the Doctrines of Grace are also consistent with scripture.

Blessings,
Stephen Pruett

Debbie Kaufman said...

John Farris: Unbelievers say that salvation through Christ is narrow minded and prejudicial. Yet the message of salvation as taught in the Bible is true isn't it?

It is anything but determinist. Do you think God is inactive? I don't. All I can say is when I read the book of Romans, I can't get past chapters such as Romans 9. The Bible says it. It's true.

Christiane said...

When we speak of 'no one being worthy', I hear the words of the Scriptures 'Lord, I am not worthy that Thou shoudst come under my roof. . . '
and I recall that the prayer that ends 'but only say the Word, and I shall be healed. . . '

And He heals . . .

The concept of humility is foreign to a prideful people who sit in judgment on others, and do not weep for their own sins.
How our pride consumes us, making us blind, and deaf, and unable to love in The Way of the Lord.

If we have a value to God and to ourselves, it is this:
that He has loved us, and that He has valued us enough to come and save us from our sins.
What does He ask of us in return?
Only that we love one another, as He loved us . . .

You may say, 'I can't, I don't know how to love that way. . . not THAT way.'

Comes a lesson from Corrie Ten Boom, who was able to forgive the concentration camp guard who tormented her and her sister, Betsey:

Corrie could not forgive on her own. But she prayed to Jesus, and she said that Christ gave her the strength to do what He had asked of her. She was enabled to forgive.

Corrie said that when He asks us to love our enemies, He also gives us the love to do it.

Now, I have heard many examples of what 'grace' is, but I think Corrie's explanation is one that I can understand with no trouble.

There is something about that commandment: 'love one another as I have loved you' (in the Way I have loved you) that speaks to this: He loved us and reached out to help us and came to be 'with us' while we were still sinners.
Knowing that, can we then turn our backs on our brothers who are still in trouble, and walk away from them? What is it that we are being asked to do? And HOW are we being asked to do it? And will He enable us to do what He commands of us?

Is it too hard for us to understand? Or too hard for us to accomplish? On our own?

Think about Corrie Ten Boom's words. "He asks us to love . . . and then He gives us the love to do it."

What then must we do to help our fallen brothers? We look to Him for the 'way' to help them, and then we ask Him for the 'strength' to help them. If we follow 'His Way', can we turn our backs on our brothers in judgment?
Was it His Way? Did He turn His Back on us?

In our response to His Will, Christ works something out within us that needs changing. And we grow in our ability to love, as He loved.

There are questions to ponder as individuals, but also to ponder as communities of caring Christian people, a Family. How do we go back for our fallen brothers? How do we accomplish this, with an honest integrity expressed with humility, and in the Way of the Lord? Love, L's

Wade Burleson said...

Thy Peace,

I must hand it to you. Of all the people who have conjectured on why I am not blogging about SBC politics - you are spot on.

Paula said...

If anyone is interested, I'm analyzing the White/Hunt debate on Calvinism beginning Here.

Former FBC Insider said...

Thy Peace,

Thank you for the Comment with Links from Pastor Wade. How very refreshing!

Now I've got to go see what you've discovered in your last links on Wade's decision.

You're always a blessing.

Tom Kelley said...

"Antinomianism
(anti, against, and nomos, law)
–noun: The heretical doctrine that Christians are exempt from the obligations of moral law."


If the shoe fits the feet, wear it.

John Fariss said...

Debbie,

I'm not sure I understand your questions to me. Certainly I believe salvation through Christ and Him alone is true and real--how could I claim the name "Christian" otherwise?

I was not referring to the Bible directly, but rather to the lens of interpretation for the Bible known as Calvinism or the Docrtines of Grace, whatever. Any system of interpretation--be it Calvinism, Arminianism, Neo-Platinism, Neo-orthodoxy, process theology, etc.--is a lens through which its proponents view the Bible. The fact is, there are verses which seem to support Calvinism, just as there are verses which support Arminianism, and other systems. My point is that in order to be faithful to the Written Word, we must recognize these lenses and "adjust" according for it.

John

missshunary said...

It's always funny how most any topic can always come back to those "Stinkin' Calvinists".

If you want a distorted view of the Doctrines of Grace, check out:

Dave Hunt
Paula

If you want a clear teaching on the matter, check out:

Al Mohler
Charles Spurgeon
John Piper
Jonathan Edwards
D.A. Carson
John Knox
A.W. Pink
John MacArthur
Steve Lawson
C.J. Mahaney
Wayne Grudem
Ligon Duncan
Mark Dever
Tim Keller
R.C. Sproul
Wade Burleson :)

Paula said...

misshunary or whoever you are,

Your open mockery and hatred of me is, like it or not, the predominant attitude I've had over the years from the majority of Calvinists.

If merely disagreeing with you on this topic is all it takes for you to hate someone, then I truly pity you.

missshunary said...

It's not your "disagreement" on the matter that makes you an easy target Miss Paula.

My sister disagrees with me and that long list of titanic theologians on this matter.

So what?

It's your intentional DISTORTION of a doctrine that people from the Apostle Paul to the owner of this blog hold to that paints a huge bulls-eye on your forehead.

If you can't take it, then stop it.

Otherwise, suck it up and prepare to be ridiculed if you insinuate that Piper, Edwards, and Spurgeon are idiots and Paula has it all figured out.

It's laughable. I'm even laughing right now.

So don't think I'm angry and full of hate towards you.

Former FBC Insider said...

Wow Paula,

I read that one the way you did, mocking and hateful. It sure keeps coming back to truth that if Christians disagree with each other they get angry, hurtful and just plain ugly on every ministry level.

I'm sorry for that.

Paula said...

laughing misshunary,

Unless you claim to be a psychic, or God, you cannot judge my alleged motives. There is nothing in anything I've posted that can be twisted in to an INTENTION to distort as you claim. Anyone can see that your flaming hatred has only ever been in response to my merely stating that I am not a Calvinist.

But if you can say what you do and call it anything but blind hatred, I guess I'm wasting my time in talking to you. Regardless, how about taking your own advice?

And FYI: you can't stop me from living and breathing and posting as Wade allows, so please try and get over yourself.

[putting hatemonger on ignore]

Paula said...

Thanks, Former FBC Insider! :-)

Alan Paul said...

Because you don't like someone's views doesn't mean you are free to attack. Missshunary you have attacked and belittled and that is un-Christlike.

missshunary said...

Paula - Please ignore me!

You are the one that started the interaction between you and I. I am not interested.

I didn't address you, I only referenced your intentional distortion. Read my comment above at 2:05pm to help you recollect.

I enjoy discussing the matter with people who disagree with me. I usually learn from the exchanges. My sister is brilliant and makes some thoughtful, great points that cause me study deeper. She knows what she believes, but she also knows how to represent accurately what I believe.

What I "hate" (since you love to use that word), is discussing the matter with someone who "innocently" says they are "simply not a Calvinist", when the reality is they (you) are much more damaging to the church than "simply not being a Calvinist".

They (you) drag the doctrine through the mud. You don't care about representing the doctrine accurately.

Toughen up your skin or stop your antics.

Either way, I will not read your nonsense and simply not protect the integrity of Ephesians 1 and 2, Romans 9 and 10, John 6, and the many other texts that deal with this issue.

I also think it's cool that Wade let's you post here even though you intentionally misrepresent what he believes.

On the other hand, if this were the Apostle Paul's blog, I think he would ban you.

Please don't forget what you said...ignore me!

Much obliged Miss Paula.

Christiane said...

Dear Ones:
Pax Domine sit semper vobiscum.


About the 'lens' we need in order to fathom the depths of Holy Scripture, I found this, which might help: Love, L's

"Christianity is the religion of the "Word" of God, a word which is "not a written and mute word, but the Word is incarnate and living".

If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, "open our minds to understand the Scriptures."

feetxxxl said...

"the Word is incarnate and living".

how can we credit ourselves with embracing the living word, if we are invested in regulation and see our relationship to god thru it as in deut 28?

it would seem that paul's words in romans that "we are led by the spirit" and jesus's words "we will recognize them by their fruit(fruit of the spirit)" would have even greater meaning.

possibly the need to be led by our interpretation of the law, is because it validates our belief systems.

Benji Ramsaur said...

Tom,

I'm not sure who you are directing your comment towards.

However, my view is that the Law of Christ "is" moral.

I also believe the *entire* law of Moses was moral under the Old Covenant. It would have been "wrong" for an Israelite to disobey *any* of those laws.

Now, if someone wants to still charge me with "Antinomianism", then the necessary implication is that the law of Christ is not "moral enough" for the accuser.

Accordingly, I see the accuser as someone who is ultimately insulting Christ [the prophet like unto Moses] Himself.

* 1 Cor. 9:21

Grace

Benji

Benji Ramsaur said...

feetxxl,

Homosexual behavior most certainly is a sin.

John 16:13-14 reveals the umbilical cord between Christ and the apostles.

To say that homosexual behavior is not a sin is to necessarily cut that umbilical cord--Paul's teaching is clear on homosexual behavior.

And if you cut that cord, then you are left with a wax nosed Jesus that is able to be shaped in any way sinful man [or woman] wants to shape Him.

Allow me to encourage you to not go that direction.

Grace to you

Benji

Benji Ramsaur said...

Paul,

I agree that the law to love thy neighbor as thyself and the law to love one another based on the love example of Christ are not the exact same thing.

In fact, Christ speaks of "unbelieving neighbors", if you will, in John 13:35 observing the "new command" being carried out in how believers relate to *only* one another.

By the way, I loved your teaching on John 13:34 on your blog.

God Bless you brother,

Benji

feetxxxl said...

which part is clear

lev .....where many prohibitions of themselves were not sins.

gen .........which is about gang rape

romans 1........they worshipped and served powers and principalities(created) and were given over to the spirit that served those powers and principalities.......shameful lust, and thus abandoned what was of their natural inclination that gave them peace(fruit of the spirit) for that whichwas not and without peace. homosexuals never having women not since their first sexual memory, not being able to abandon something they never had.

itim icor............the transposition of the word “homosexual” took place in victorian england(no seperation between church and state…the queen was head of the church) the victorian era is credited with a number of sexually repressive attitudes.(wikipedia) the word “homosexual” was transposed for the phrase”defiling themselves with mankind” without ANY WRITTEN EXPLANATION. at the time the transposition took place, a king henry enacted law had been on the books for 400 hundred years that punished homosexual sex with hanging. king henry another head of the church.

english settlers coming to this country upon arriving made laws about this same issue with different punishnments. the transposition and cultural stigma are what kept homosexuality illegal in this country until the 1990’s.

you attempt to make regulation out of paul’s teaching when he said that we are no longer UNDER the law in romans and ephesians, “Everything is permissiable but not everything is beneficial”, “we are LED by the spirit, which we serve of” none of paul’s teachings were thru the law, even when a man took his father’s wife.

feetxxxl said...

benji

if you are so confident that homosexuality is a sin please explain how it comes against the 2nd commandment.

the 2nd commandment is the summation of all new covenant law. in other words under the new covenant the law that is of christ(all authority and all judgement) is that which embraces loving ones neighbor as oneself.

if you had a 1john1 witness to substaniate your belief(you understand the importance of witness)1thess 5:21 test everything ,keep the good.

"that which we have heard, which we have looked at, which our eyes have seen and our hands have touched" in fellowship of walking in the light, you would know that believing homosexual marriages are filled with the fruit of the spirit in the same way that believing heterosexual marriages are.

"by their fruit you will know them"

Benji Ramsaur said...

feetxxl,

"Which" law was Paul referring to when he spoke of not being under law [Gal. 5:18 for example]?

He was speaking of the law of Moses.

It is THAT law that the believer is not under.

However, the believer "is" to obey the law of Christ [1 Cor. 9:21].

God Bless you,

Benji

P.S. The Apostolic word is *binding* [John 16:13-14].

feetxxxl said...

benji



if you answer that question you will not only be the first person who has ever answered it, but also the first person on this website.

Benji Ramsaur said...

feetxxl,

I agree that loving our neighbors is binding on the Christian [Romans 13:8-10].

However, I think you might be confusing the second commandment with the new commandment when they are not the exact same thing.

Paul Burleson explains this above.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 is not talking about testing the Apostolic word.

The Apostolic word is the word of Christ.

I should not test Christ.

feetxxxl said...

i was referring to loving ones neighbor as oneself and nothing else, which jesus also refers to as the 2nd commandment.

now that we are clear, please explain, how homosexuality comes against loving ones neighbor as oneself.

Thy Peace said...

Off Topic:

The Wartburg Watch > Yep, There Are Still More Reasons Why We Are Leaving The SBC (Part 6).
A few days ago, Wade Burleson, author of Hardball Religion, Feeling the Fury of Fundamentalism, announced that he will abstain from the discussion of politics for the next year. His wonderful blog will now be a site to discuss theology.
...
So, here is a list of concerns outlined in Burleson’s book. I leave it to you to decide if they are spiritual issues or “mere” politics. All page numbers refer to pages in Burleson’s book, Hardball Religion
.

Thy Peace said...

Off Topic;

Stop Baptist Predators > Burqa debate brings forth memories.
For me, it’s a debate that calls to mind the summer when I was an anthropology graduate student working on an archeological dig in Israel. Physically, I did battle with scorpions, sand and sun, but mentally, I was enmeshed in the religious imagery that surrounded me.

At summer’s end, I joined friends in Belgium and then traveled south with a Moroccan friend to attend a wedding in Marrakech. I felt so honored to be invited
.

Benji Ramsaur said...

feetxxxl,

You spoke of "how homosexuality comes against loving ones neighbor as oneself"

I reject your premise that something has to be against loving one's neighbor in order to be a sin in the New Covenant.

Not hallowing the Name of the Father [Matthew 6:9] is not a sin against one's neighbor, but it is still a sin.

Also, anything that is called a sin in the "Apostle" Paul's epistles, for example, is a sin in the New Covenant.

The Apostles are the "foundation" of the church [Ephesians 2:20].

Christ's word concerning the Apostles cannot be broken [John 16:13-14].

Or cut.

Benji

feetxxxl said...

Romans 13:9
The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."


Galatians 5:13-15
13You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature[a]; rather, serve one another in love. 14The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

Benji Ramsaur said...

feetxxxl,

You are trying to disprove the very authority you are leaning on.

If Paul is not binding in what he says about homosexual behavior, then what business do you have appealing to Galatians 5:14 and Romans 13:9?

Anyway, the law in its entirety that Galatians 5:14 is speaking of is the law of Moses, not the law of Christ [the law of Moses is in view in Romans 13:9 as well].

The Law of Moses and the Law of Christ are distinct from one another [1 Cor. 9:20-21]--though the law of Christ does include some of the law of Moses in it.

The mere presence of the "new command" in John 13:34 disproves your premise for that was not one of the laws in the Old Covenant that is summed up in the "Love Thy Neighbor" command.

Jesus had not come. Therefore, it was impossible to have a command to love another based on His example.

The "new command" is a law that was not part of all of the laws of Moses that are summed up in the "second command".

And yet it is binding in the New Covenant.

God Bless

Benji

Elisabeth said...

I realized something interesting this evening.

You can't truly be broken because of your sin if you think God's going to stop loving you because of it.

feetxxxl said...

benji

you are confusing commandments of the new covenant and the law.

the three commandments of love are directives of action to live by. love god; love self and neighbor as you love yourself; love one another as jesus loved us(the greatest of you will be your servant)

by living by them you do more than follow the law, you do as christ did, you fulfill it. because the fulfillment of the law is love.

the law........those things that you are told not to do.....things to refrain from.

according to romans the law is to make us conscious living the 2nd commandment which is the summation of all new covenant law.

new covenant law includes any of moses's law that embraces the 2nd commandment.(love your neighbor as yourself)

who is your neighbor.......everybody else.

Benji Ramsaur said...

feetxxxl,

I think you have a flawed view of what fulfill means. I think the fulfillment of the law that is spoken about concerning Christ has to do with an eschatological fulfillment and not about fulfillment in the sense of love.

I think it is about the law of Moses passing through Christ and Christ giving it the shape He wants it to have.

Anyway, I appreciate your kindness towards me in our disagreements.

Grace to you,

Benji

Benji Ramsaur said...

feetxxl,

I was specifically referring to the "fulfillment" spoken of in Matthew 5.

missshunary said...

feetxxxl - You're giving new meaning to the expression "fruit" of the spirit.

Your pro-homosexual argument turns this sinner's stomach.

I can only imagine what it does to a perfect and holy God.

feetxxxl said...

missshunary

that is a normal misconception. my disgust is god's disgust, my outrage is god's outrage, etc

feetxxxl said...

benji

every major historical failing of the gospel by believers has centered around violation of the 2nd commandment.

2000 years of antisemetism, (holocaust), ethnic slavery

feetxxxl said...

benji

if king david had loved his neighbor as himself, he would not have stepped in what he did with bathsheba.

feetxxxl said...

being in christ goes beyond the law, because sinning becomes a conviction of the heart. a person can sin without a single outward gesture.

feetxxxl said...

benji

1Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

ezekiel said...

feetxxxl,

Going back to your first comment promoting homosexuality and watching your discussion with Benji I can't help but wonder how you mutilate 1 Cor 6. You do severe injustice to Romans 1 that should be the first and best argument against your lifestyle. If you truly have the Spirit inside you, there should be an intense warfare and struggle that unsettles you and causes you to repent. If not, you need to examine yourself and find out why the struggle isn't happening.

1Co 6:8 But [instead it is you] yourselves who wrong and defraud, and that even your own brethren [by so treating them]!
1Co 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous and the wrongdoers will not inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived (misled): neither the impure and immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those who participate in homosexuality,
1Co 6:10 Nor cheats (swindlers and thieves), nor greedy graspers, nor drunkards, nor foulmouthed revilers and slanderers, nor extortioners and robbers will inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God.

1Co 6:11 And such some of you were [once]. But you were washed clean (purified by a complete atonement for sin and made free from the guilt of sin), and you were consecrated (set apart, hallowed), and you were justified [pronounced righteous, by trusting] in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the [Holy] Spirit of our God.
1Co 6:12 Everything is permissible (allowable and lawful) for me; but not all things are helpful (good for me to do, expedient and profitable when considered with other things). Everything is lawful for me, but I will not become the slave of anything or be brought under its power.
1Co 6:13 Food [is intended] for the stomach and the stomach for food, but God will finally end [the functions of] both and bring them to nothing. The body is not intended for sexual immorality, but [is intended] for the Lord, and the Lord [is intended] for the body [to save, sanctify, and raise it again].
1Co 6:14 And God both raised the Lord to life and will also raise us up by His power.
1Co 6:15 Do you not see and know that your bodies are members (bodily parts) of Christ (the Messiah)? Am I therefore to take the parts of Christ and make [them] parts of a prostitute? Never! Never!
1Co 6:16 Or do you not know and realize that when a man joins himself to a prostitute, he becomes one body with her? The two, it is written, shall become one flesh. [Gen. 2:24.]
1Co 6:17 But the person who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with Him.
1Co 6:18 Shun immorality and all sexual looseness [flee from impurity in thought, word, or deed]. Any other sin which a man commits is one outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body.

1Co 6:19 Do you not know that your body is the temple (the very sanctuary) of the Holy Spirit Who lives within you, Whom you have received [as a Gift] from God? You are not your own,
1Co 6:20 You were bought with a price [purchased with a preciousness and paid for, made His own]. So then, honor God and bring glory to Him in your body.

your question.

ezekiel said...

feetxxxl Continued,

I doubt seriously that continued, unrepentant sin against your own body can ever lead to loving yourself. I think therein lies the answer to your question. If you love yourself, you will flee sexual immorality and impurity. That is what Christ's love for you would have you do.

Until then, you are not honoring God nor bringing glory to Him. That is a clear violation of Commandment #1.

Hating yourself enough to be captive to sin, sexual immorality and homosexuality makes it highly unlikely that loving your neighbor as yourself can ever really happen. By defrauding your neighbor, you violate commndment #2.You don't love your neighbor by defrauding him and leading him into sin. You love him by telling him the truth. That truth is.....

1Co 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous and the wrongdoers will not inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived (misled): neither the impure and immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those who participate in homosexuality,
1Co 6:10 Nor cheats (swindlers and thieves), nor greedy graspers, nor drunkards, nor foulmouthed revilers and slanderers, nor extortioners and robbers will inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God.

I would suggest an examination. (2 Cor 13:5) and repentance that would spare you from being found a reprobate.

Rom 1:28 And so, since they did not see fit to acknowledge God or approve of Him or consider Him worth the knowing, God gave them over to a base and condemned mind to do things not proper or decent but loathsome,

2Ti 3:8 Now just as Jannes and Jambres were hostile to and resisted Moses, so these men also are hostile to and oppose the Truth. They have depraved and distorted minds, and are reprobate and counterfeit and to be rejected as far as the faith is concerned. [Exod. 7:11.]

Tit 1:16 They profess to know God [to recognize, perceive, and be acquainted with Him], but deny and disown and renounce Him by what they do; they are detestable and loathsome, unbelieving and disobedient and disloyal and rebellious, and [they are] unfit and worthless for good work (deed or enterprise) of any kind.

I hope this answered your question.

feetxxxl said...

missshunary

it is tragic that you are ruled by your disgust. i attend an mcc church(400 gay congregation, who joyously attend services each sunday. there is no spirit of deceit, delusion or denial in either their worship or their support of homosexuality at the pulpit. what there is, is joy, gentleness and devotion in their worship of christ.

and at present you will never know this because your commitment of your beliefs rejects any fellowship with gay believers who disagree with your understanding of the law.

feetxxxl said...

ezekiel

you make accusations and quote scripture but you do not address a single point.

feetxxxl said...

ezekiel

here again you make assumptions about another whose attraction to the same sex is from their first sexual memory, that they live 24/7 their entire lives. you do not honor their life experiences or their sincerity of heart or the fruit of spirit of their lives and relationships.

is it your contention that homosexuals love themselves less compared to heterosexuals. i know of no one who agrees with this understanding. neither does my witness "that which i have heard, which i have looked at, which i have seen with my eyes and my hands have touched",which you are without because you give the same impression as miss hunary.

all this, not to mention that believing homosexual marriages are filled with the fruit of the spirit in the same way as believing heterosexual marriages.

feetxxxl said...

ezekiel

you are making a judgenment about my love for god because i a am gay.

that is exactly the judgement the gosple speaks against.

missshunary said...

Feet - I am not sure why you directed your last comment toward me while ignoring all of the scripture that ezekiel threw at you.

Wait. Nevermind. I do know why you ignored all the scripture.

Hence, your sin remains.

By the way, the reason for the greatest commandment from Jesus is because that one commandment does away with all the others.

If we love our neighbor as ourself, there is no need for any of the other laws...against lieing, stealing, coveting, committing adultery, etc...

Get it?

Like I said, if my disgust with the homosexual lifestyle choice makes me cringe in my fallen state, I can't begin to imagine what it does to the Holy One.

Would He require me, someone who struggles with sin and hates sin and fights against sin everyday, to offer my praise to Him for eternity along side someone who lived a life of sin and relished in their sin without fear of consequence?

Can't see it.

The god you worship is a god of love. No problem with that.

Your problem along with your 400 gay and lesbian friends is that the God of judgement is no where to be found.

And we both know why. I would keep Him safely tucked away if I were you also.

But He will find you one day.

Repent or perish.

feetxxxl said...

ezekiel

i applaud your speaking your mind, but your comments are an example of violation of the second commandment.

feetxxxl said...

1 John 4:20
If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.

Former FBC Insider said...

"Self-love is powerful and deep - but expected; Christ's love for me is so much more powerful, so much deeper - and unexpected! Thus, my love for others in the New Covenant ought to astonish, amaze and cause people to scratch their head in wonderment and surprise - just as I am astonished, amazed and surprised by Christ's love for me."
from Pastor Wade's new post today

missshunary, I'm astonished and amazed, but not in a good way.

feetxxxl said...

misshunary

i applaud you for speaking your mind.

but what you appear to be saying is not only is your disgust, god's disgust, and your outrage, god's outrage, but also your judgement, is god's judgement.

ezekiel said...

feetxxl,

2Pe 2:1 BUT ALSO [in those days] there arose false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among yourselves, who will subtly and stealthily introduce heretical doctrines (destructive heresies), even denying and disowning the Master Who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2 And many will follow their immoral ways and lascivious doings; because of them the true Way will be maligned and defamed.
2Pe 2:3 And in their covetousness (lust, greed) they will exploit you with false (cunning) arguments. From of old the sentence [of condemnation] for them has not been idle; their destruction (eternal misery) has not been asleep.
2Pe 2:4 For God did not [even] spare angels that sinned, but cast them into hell, delivering them to be kept there in pits of gloom till the judgment and their doom.
2Pe 2:5 And He spared not the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven other persons, when He brought a flood upon the world of ungodly [people]. [Gen. 6-8; I Peter 3:20.]
2Pe 2:6 And He condemned to ruin and extinction the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, reducing them to ashes [and thus] set them forth as an example to those who would be ungodly; [Gen. 19:24.]
2Pe 2:7 And He rescued righteous Lot, greatly worn out and distressed by the wanton ways of the ungodly and lawless--[Gen. 19:16, 29.]
2Pe 2:8 For that just man, living [there] among them, tortured his righteous soul every day with what he saw and heard of [their] unlawful and wicked deeds--
2Pe 2:9 Now if [all these things are true, then be sure] the Lord knows how to rescue the godly out of temptations and trials, and how to keep the ungodly under chastisement until the day of judgment and doom,
2Pe 2:10 And particularly those who walk after the flesh and indulge in the lust of polluting passion and scorn and despise authority. Presumptuous [and] daring [self-willed and self-loving creatures]! They scoff at and revile dignitaries (glorious ones) without trembling,
2Pe 2:11 Whereas [even] angels, though superior in might and power, do not bring a defaming charge against them before the Lord.
2Pe 2:12 But these [people]! Like unreasoning beasts, mere creatures of instinct, born [only] to be captured and destroyed, railing at things of which they are ignorant, they shall utterly perish in their [own] corruption [in their destroying they shall surely be destroyed],

ezekiel said...

feetxxl continued,

2Pe 2:13 Being destined to receive [punishment as] the reward of [their] unrighteousness [suffering wrong as the hire for their wrongdoing]. They count it a delight to revel in the daytime [living luxuriously and delicately]. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions and carousing together [even] as they feast with you.
2Pe 2:14 They have eyes full of harlotry, insatiable for sin. They beguile and bait and lure away unstable souls. Their hearts are trained in covetousness (lust, greed), [they are] children of a curse [exposed to cursing]!
2Pe 2:15 Forsaking the straight road they have gone astray; they have followed the way of Balaam [the son] of Beor, who loved the reward of wickedness. [Num. 22:5, 7.]
2Pe 2:16 But he was rebuked for his own transgression when a dumb beast of burden spoke with human voice and checked the prophet's madness. [Num. 22:21-31.]
2Pe 2:17 These are springs without water and mists driven along before a tempest, for whom is reserved forever the gloom of darkness.
2Pe 2:18 For uttering loud boasts of folly, they beguile and lure with lustful desires of the flesh those who are barely escaping from them who are wrongdoers.
2Pe 2:19 They promise them liberty, when they themselves are the slaves of depravity and defilement--for by whatever anyone is made inferior or worse or is overcome, to that [person or thing] he is enslaved.
2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through [the full, personal] knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they again become entangled in them and are overcome, their last condition is worse [for them] than the first.
2Pe 2:21 For never to have obtained a [full, personal] knowledge of the way of righteousness would have been better for them than, having obtained [such knowledge], to turn back from the holy commandment which was [verbally] delivered to them.
2Pe 2:22 There has befallen them the thing spoken of in the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and, The sow is washed only to wallow again in the mire. [Prov. 26:11.]

Homosexuality is an abomination. Was, still is. God does not change.

You have enough scripture to take into your cult and preach Jesus, deliverance from bondage to sin, repentance, and salvation.

But your not part of us until Jesus is both Lord and Savior in your life. Now you need to decide who you are going to serve. Sin or righteousness, Christ or Satan.

feetxxxl said...

you make all kinds of accusations and quote scripture but you refuse to address one point.

feetxxxl said...

as i said before homosexuals bond out mutual love, affection, devotion,trust, and respect for a shared committed life together, the same as heterosexuals.

homosexuals have never been found lacking in any sector of society, compared to heterosexuals. they are less a friend, brother, teacher, counselor, doctor attorney,neighbor,father,etc

could you say the same of those who were given over to acts of the sin nature in gal5 compared to those that were not?


believing homosexual marriages are filled with the fruit of the spirit in the same way as believing heterosexual marriages.

your response is one of fear, because of an understanding about the law. but god did not give you a spirit of fear. yet you are content to cling to this fear instead of testing it thru a 1john1 witness(that which we have heard, which we have looked at, which our eyes have seen, and our hands have touched in felowship with christ) with those you accuse.

are you not concerned one iota about false witness?

how is it that you can have a discussion about the new covenant, and think that the fruit of the spirit as either dismissive or the same as those of powers and principalities.

or is it a case of recognizing only those things of scripture that support your belief system.

feetxxxl said...

homosexual believers celebrate, affirm, and support their orientation openly and with zealous intent, yet the fruit of spirit of their worship and their lives is no less than that of heterosexual believers.

do you think you could say the same of believers who celebrated, supported ,affirmed or supported murder, thievery, or adultery. i have seen those who have tried............the fruit of the spirit gave them away as to who they were worshipping and serving.

if a believer marries someone(same gender) they have been attracted to from their earliest sexual memory, an attraction that they have lived with 24/7 their entire lives. and this marriage and their lives are filled with fruit of the spirit, in the same way as those heterosexual, WHERE IS THE SIN?

according to the new covenant does not all sin have a spirit that comes against the spirit of christ. is not all sin about being given over to an essence of spirit that is against the spirit of christ.

can the spirit of christ and the spirit of powers and principalites share the same space, without one diminishing or transposing the other. that being the case is not witness of the fruit of the spirit an indication of what is of christ?

if all this is not about the new covenant of christ then what is?

......... a relationship to god thru regulation, as in deut 28?

Benji Ramsaur said...

feetxxxl,

You told me "you attempt to make regulation out of paul’s teaching when he said that we are no longer UNDER the law in romans and ephesians,"

This statement alone is saying that I should not attempt to make regulation from what Paul says WHEN YOU YOURSELF APPEAL TO THAT SAME PAUL TO REGULATE MY THINKING.

You are basically saying "Paul's not authoritative based on Paul's authoritative statement."

Either Paul regulates or he does not.

You have told me to not make regulation from Paul and yet you quote from/allude to Paul "as an authority" in all these comments of yours below:

Tue Jun 30, 06:38:00 PM 2009

Tue Jun 30, 10:02:00 PM 2009

Wed Jul 01, 12:37:00 AM 2009

Wed Jul 01, 08:56:00 AM 2009

Question: Should Paul regulate or not?

missshunary said...

"but what you appear to be saying is not only is your disgust, god's disgust, and your outrage, god's outrage, but also your judgement, is god's judgement."

With the only suggestion that you switch and put God first then me...

for example, "...God's disgust, is your disgust, and God's outrage, is your outrage, but also God's judgement, is your judgement."

...I couldn't have said it better myself.

You sir, have hit the proverbial nail on the head.

By the way, I don't hate you. I am simply compelled to implore you to repent or perish. Just like anyone else who sins unrepentingly. This is biblical, evidenced by the fact that it offends some people. Even some former baptist insiders.

There would also be nothing wrong with you listening to other pastors instead of just your own, who no doubt tells you exactly what you want to hear.

Try John Piper, John MacArthur, and / or R.C. Sproul. They have all done extensive research and have a good bit of material on men and women who struggle with sexual perversion.

feetxxxl said...

misshunary

if that your testimony of your relationship with christ and the holy father, so be it.

feetxxxl said...

benji

im merely giving you a different understandings of certain scriptures and about the new covenant. its for the holy spirit to convict you of whether they are of christ or not.

Benji Ramsaur said...

feetxxxl,

No.

It was the Holy Spirit that took from Christ and revealed what He took to the Apostles [John 16:13-15].

Therefore, the Apostolic word itself is from the Spirit.

Accordingly, to then "judge" which part of the Apostolic word is right and which is wrong is to judge that which comes from the Spirit Himself.

ezekiel said...

feetxxl,

In your rush to justify your sin, you make two basic arguments. At least that is the way it looks to me.

1)We are just like heterosexuals and our lifestystyles are based on the same emotions as heterosexuals.

2)There can be no sin because we are under the covenant of grace not the law.

Now #1. The Bible has shown a long and extraordinary sanctioning and aproving of heterosexual relationships. It started with Adam and Eve and ends with Jesus and his bride. Nowhere in recorded history do we find the the bible sanctioning homosexuality but rather the condemnation of it and even calling it an abomination. Both in the OT and the NT. You can dance around that all you want but dancing is all it is.

Now #2. The bible, specifically the OT was recorded as an example.

1Co 10:11 Now these things befell them by way of a figure [as an example and warning to us]; they were written to admonish and fit us for right action by good instruction, we in whose days the ages have reached their climax (their consummation and concluding period).

If homsexuality was an abomination then, it is now. The warnings from heaven are...

1Co 10:6 Now these things are examples (warnings and admonitions) for us not to desire or crave or covet or lust after evil and carnal things as they did. [Num. 11:4, 34.]
1Co 10:7 Do not be worshipers of false gods as some of them were, as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink [the sacrifices offered to the golden calf at Horeb] and rose to sport (to dance and give way to jesting and hilarity). [Exod. 32:4, 6.]
1Co 10:8 We must not gratify evil desire and indulge in immorality as some of them did--and twenty-three thousand [suddenly] fell dead in a single day! [Num. 25:1-18.]
1Co 10:9 We should not tempt the Lord [try His patience, become a trial to Him, critically appraise Him, and exploit His goodness] as some of them did--and were killed by poisonous serpents; [Num. 21:5, 6.]

2Co 12:21 [I am fearful] that when I come again, my God may humiliate and humble me in your regard, and that I may have to sorrow over many of those who sinned before and have not repented of the impurity, sexual vice, and sensuality which they formerly practiced.

Eph 5:3 But immorality (sexual vice) and all impurity [of lustful, rich, wasteful living] or greediness must not even be named among you, as is fitting and proper among saints (God's consecrated people).

ezekiel said...

feetxxxl continued,

Eph 5:5 For be sure of this: that no person practicing sexual vice or impurity in thought or in life, or one who is covetous [who has lustful desire for the property of others and is greedy for gain]--for he [in effect] is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Col 3:5 So kill (deaden, deprive of power) the evil desire lurking in your members [those animal impulses and all that is earthly in you that is employed in sin]: sexual vice, impurity, sensual appetites, unholy desires, and all greed and covetousness, for that is idolatry (the deifying of self and other created things instead of God).

1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, that you should be consecrated (separated and set apart for pure and holy living): that you should abstain and shrink from all sexual vice,

Heb 13:4 Let marriage be held in honor (esteemed worthy, precious, of great price, and especially dear) in all things. And thus let the marriage bed be undefiled (kept undishonored); for God will judge and punish the unchaste [all guilty of sexual vice] and adulterous.

Rev 2:14 Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: you have some people there who are clinging to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to set a trap and a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, [to entice them] to eat food that had been sacrificed to idols and to practice lewdness [giving themselves up to sexual vice]. [Num. 25:1, 2; 31:16.]

1Co 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous and the wrongdoers will not inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived (misled): neither the impure and immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those who participate in homosexuality,


What it all boils down to is explained in Romans 1, 1 Cor 6 and Hebrews 10-12 among many other places in the NT. You apparently consider His Grace a license to sin. But that isn't what it says in the Bible. Those who spurn His Grace are due a much sorer punishment....

Don't sell your birthright as Esau did.

Heb 12:15 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no "root of bitterness" springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled;
Heb 12:16 that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal.

Heb 12:25 See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven.

Rom 1:32 Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

Former FBC Insider said...

misshunary said, "By the way, I don't hate you. I am simply compelled to implore you to repent or perish. Just like anyone else who sins unrepentingly. This is biblical, evidenced by the fact that it offends some people. Even some former baptist insiders."

To even have to say that you don't hate someone, means that what you said implies that. Your attitude comes across as hateful. You must hear this all the time due to how you must tell us that you don't hate.

Being offensive is not equal to being Biblical. You are only further ruining your case. You discredit yourself.

Reread the original post by Pator Wade on LOVE.

feetxxxl said...

EZEKIAL

rather, than you putting words in my mouth, let me reiterate.

my understanding is that homosexuality is not a sin.

it is not sexual vice, sexual impurity, idolatry, or lustful activity.

homosexuality is spiritually equal to heterosexuality.

both happen out of the same motivations for a commited shared life together.

it is not about there being no sin, its about homosexuality NOT BEING A SIN.

and finally, not only is homosexuality not sin but the celebration,affirmation, and support of it (in the same way we do heterosexuality) is christ, and those things that would come against doing this are against christ.

i dont know how much clearer i can put it.

feetxxxl said...

to ezekial and others

here is why homosexuality is not a sin

no where in scripture does it say homosexuality is a sin. not in lev, where not all prohibitions of themselves are a sin,or romans about men and women who having relations with each other, abandon them to have same sex relations out of SHAMEFUL LUST.(niv)(if same sex relations of themselves were a sin then scripture need only denote the relations, not the shameful lust. denoting this means the condition of sin is about the motivating spirit),1tim and 1cor,( the conditions of the transposition of the word" homosexual" show that it was incorrect) "defiling oneself with mankind"(kjv) is too broad to have any specificity to homosexuality. there is no obvious understanding of "arsenkotai" the lack of claritymakes it a nonfactor. also paul having said" we were no longer under the law" , why then would he turn around and make laws to put believers under. none of his teachings were through the law.

more importantly under the new covenant we are no longer have a relationship to god thru regulation(deut 28). that means there are no more rules that govern physicality. as paul said all things are permissible, but not all things are beneficial. we are led by what we are under, which is grace(spirit) thru the one who lives in each believer.
as paul says in romans3:20" Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin."

sin, in regard to the law, is anything that comes against the 2nd commandment(the summation of all new covernant law).
in terms of physicality the marriage between christ and the church is not one of physicality but of spirit that is the essence of a marriage. this is not about physicality but faith, love, and devotion.

christ spoke about other than heterosexual bonding, in matthew 19:11 that is a message for all time . that is not limited by human legality.

yours and the response others on this site, has been one about fear. fear that gives license to deny fellowship. god did not give us a spirit of fear, and fellowship as mentioned in 1john1 is the essence of walking in the light. this is further proof that coming against homsexuality is not of christ.

the fact that believers continue to believe that we are led by law rather than the spirit, and they continue to attempt to put others under that same law, shows that christendom has yet to fully embrace the new covenant. you cannot fully embrace the new,, when you still have one foot firmly planted in the old.

please in challenging a point, annotate with what i have written.

feetxxxl said...

to all

in regards to the new covenant, regarding this site, am i to understand that the belief is, that the fruit of the spirit is merely warm fuzzies of an emotional tenor, so as to be either the same as the fruit of the spirit of powers and principalities or to be so inconsequential so as to be trumped by an interpretation of the law?


if the greatest of these is love compared to faith......faith, thru which we are saved, and 1cor13 says anything without love is nothing and gains nothing. and one of the fruit of the spirit is love, how do you come to your conclusion?

missshunary said...

Insider - You are siding with someone who thinks homosexuality is not a sin. You are helping them to feel comfortable in their sin and your anger is directed towards the one asking them to please repent or perish. (You do know that's from scripture, right?)

I can think of no other way to show hatred towards another greater than the hatred you are showing feetxxx.

That speaks volumes about you.

Whether I am hateful or not is beside the point, frankly.

The gospel is offensive. Deal with it.

missshunary said...

feetxxx - I don't want to go around and around with you. My main point to you remains "repent or perish".

I have read your comments and not surprisingly I think it's nonsense. Again, I would ask that you get away from your "pastor" who is no doubt pro-gay and feeding you your information.

Listen to some other pastors. Just about any Southern Baptist evangelical will do because you will not find one who will find sexual perversion acceptable in the sight of God. This is one time when it's almost okay to even listen to Joel Osteen.

Almost.

Pastor Wade is letting you defend homosexuality on his blog, but you no doubt would not appreciate his reply were he to offer one directly.

I have no delusions that you will suddenly say, "okay, I am not gay anymore".

But who knows how God might work.

And in case you are confused by insiders stupid comment, I simply said I don't hate you because I was getting the feeling you were feeling hatred. No doubt you feel that hatred a lot and I wanted to make sure you knew I am not coming from that place.

The very reason I want you to repent is because I care about you. If I didn't care about you I would treat you like insider is treating you.

Prayed for you tonight at bible study.

feetxxxl said...

missshunary

feel comfortable about homosexuality. what does comfortabilty have do with anything. try objective reason, which very few have objectively reasoned with my points.

feetxxxl said...

misshunary

pastor wade is the reason that i came on this site.



and to discuss the essence of the new covenant...........ergo the fruit of the spirit and the meaning of paul's words in romans that we are now led by and serve of the spirit, and that we are no longer under the law, and that in romans 1:18-32 paul gives the basis for all sin.

ezekiel said...

feeetxxxl,

My bible has this in it. Now you either believe or you don't. Run this by your preacher/teacher and ask him what he does about this one.

1Co 6:9

(AMP) Do you not know that the unrighteous and the wrongdoers will not inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived (misled): neither the impure and immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those who participate in homosexuality,

(ESV) Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

(KJV+) (G2228) KnowG1492 ye notG3756 thatG3754 the unrighteousG94 shall notG3756 inheritG2816 the kingdomG932 of God?G2316 Be notG3361 deceived:G4105 neitherG3777 fornicators,G4205 norG3777 idolaters,G1496 norG3777 adulterers,G3432 norG3777 effeminate,G3120 norG3777 abusers of themselves with mankind,G733


Now G3777 from Strong's concordance, in Greek, I think says this, the definition of "abusers of self with mankind" which is synonomous with "homosexualality" from the amplified and esv...

G733
ἀρσενοκοίτης
arsenokoitēs
ar-sen-ok-oy'-tace
From G730 and G2845; a sodomite: - abuser of (that defile) self with mankind.

Now here are the Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge references for "abusers of themselves with mankind".

(AMP) And they called to Lot and said, Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know (be intimate with) them.

(AMP) You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; it is an abomination. [I Cor. 6:9, 10.]

(AMP) If a man lies with a male as if he were a woman, both men have committed an offense (something perverse, unnatural, abhorrent, and detestable); they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

(AMP) The woman shall not wear that which pertains to a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment, for all that do so are an abomination to the Lord your God.

(AMP) There shall be no cult prostitute among the daughters of Israel, neither shall there be a cult prostitute (a sodomite) among the sons of Israel.

(ESV) "None of the daughters of Israel shall be a cult prostitute, and none of the sons of Israel shall be a cult prostitute.

(KJV+) There shall beH1961 noH3808 whoreH6948 of the daughtersH4480 H1323 of Israel,H3478 norH3808 a sodomiteH6945 of the sonsH4480 H1121 of Israel.H3478

Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them over and abandoned them to vile affections and degrading passions. For their women exchanged their natural function for an unnatural and abnormal one,
Rom 1:27 And the men also turned from natural relations with women and were set ablaze (burning out, consumed) with lust for one another--men committing shameful acts with men and suffering in their own bodies and personalities the inevitable consequences and penalty of their wrong-doing and going astray, which was [their] fitting retribution.

ezekiel said...

feetxxxl,

Now here is where it gets really interesting. A reference you just cant afford to avoid.

1Ti 1:8 Now we recognize and know that the Law is good if anyone uses it lawfully [for the purpose for which it was designed],
1Ti 1:9 Knowing and understanding this: that the Law is not enacted for the righteous (the upright and just, who are in right standing with God), but for the lawless and unruly, for the ungodly and sinful, for the irreverent and profane, for those who strike and beat and [even] murder fathers and strike and beat and [even] murder mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10 [For] impure and immoral persons, those who abuse themselves with men, kidnapers, liars, perjurers--and whatever else is opposed to wholesome teaching and sound doctrine
1Ti 1:11 As laid down by the glorious Gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

There is that pesky G733 again.

G733
ἀρσενοκοίτης
arsenokoitēs
ar-sen-ok-oy'-tace
From G730 and G2845; a sodomite: - abuser of (that defile) self with mankind.

The Law is still good if used for...teaching and instructing in sound doctrine.

1Ti 1:9 Knowing and understanding this: that the Law is not enacted for the righteous (the upright and just, who are in right standing with God), but for the lawless and unruly, for the ungodly and sinful, for the irreverent and profane, for those who strike and beat and [even] murder fathers and strike and beat and [even] murder mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10 [For] impure and immoral persons, those who abuse themselves with men, kidnapers, liars, perjurers--and whatever else is opposed to wholesome teaching and sound doctrine

Step back and take a look at what the Law IS designed to do. Look at what you are including yourself with, murderers,liars, kidnappers,lawless, unruly, godless, sinful...


I think I have clearly and without doubt shown you that homosexuality is sin, of the worst kind.

Repent for The Kingdom is at hand. Don't spurn His Grace. As has been suggested, get you a new preacher, or any one of many good books on the topic from well known preachers, or get into the WORD and ask the Interpreter to show you your error. Or get all of them together.

Peace O lawless one and Grace from the Almighty.

missshunary said...

You have scripture out the wahzoo to consider. If you choose to reject it, well then you are like most other people who live in sin.

Frankly, your specific sin being homosexuality has no bearing on the matter. The end result will be the same.

Like I said, prayed for you last night at bible study.

feetxxxl said...

ezekial

maybe this will make it even clearer.

it is not sexual vice, sexual impurity, idolatry, or lustful activity, OR SELF DEFILING.

AGAIN:

IS IT that the fruit of the spirit is merely warm fuzzies of an emotional tenor, so as to be either the same as the fruit of the spirit of powers and principalities or to be so inconsequential so as to be trumped by an interpretation of the law?


if the greatest of these is love compared to faith......faith, thru which we are saved, and 1cor13 says anything without love is nothing and gains nothing. and one of the fruit of the spirit is love, how do you come to your conclusion?

are you aware of the number of other parts of scripture that you are forced to ignore in order to stand on your interpretation of scripture about homosexuals?


WHEN I READ DEFILING THEMSELVES WITH MANKIND I THINK OF THE HALOCAUST.

the halocaust was conducted by a christian nation. germany was the first country to receive the bible in their own language(1500's)because of martin luther's translating. he was embraced as a national hero for 400 years. the catholic and lutheran churches were the national churches of that country for 400 years.

yet martin luther late in his life wrote some anti semetic writings that were so severe that hitler used them to validate his treatment of the jews. homosexuals were treated the same.

also.................. the halocaust would never have happened if it were not for the the severe worldwide antisemetism that existed at the time( in other christian countries)(movie: gentlemens agreement). the allies knowing about the camps made no attempt to destroy them, or the railheads that delivered the jews. if one credible person had spoken out over the worldwide airways, to make what was happening common knowlege to the world( the camps were covered with an aura of secrecy, yet no soldier ever refused service at the camp, no engineering company ever refused service in building the camps.

ANY TIME SOMEONE SINS HE ABUSES HIMSELF. IF HIS SIN IS IN COLLUSION WITH OTHERS, THEN IT IS WITH MANKIND.

32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

feetxxxl said...

misshunary


AGAIN:


IS IT that the fruit of the spirit is merely warm fuzzies of an emotional tenor, so as to be either the same as the fruit of the spirit of powers and principalities or to be so inconsequential so as to be trumped by an interpretation of the law?


if the greatest of these is love compared to faith......faith, thru which we are saved, and 1cor13 says anything without love is nothing and gains nothing. and one of the fruit of the spirit is love, how do you come to your conclusion?

are you aware of the number of other parts of scripture that you are forced to ignore in order to stand on your interpretation of scripture about homosexuals?

Paula said...

Responding to Pro-Gay Theology<

feetxxxl said...

misshunary

i read the entire paper......thank you.

its interesting that he was able to write that entire paper without addressing one of my points.

as far as witness of the spirit, he merely discredited what others thought they experienced.

what stands out throughout the entire paper is that the author has no 1john1 witness of his own. "that which we have heard".............in fellowship of walking in the light of his own.

so in essence his belief remains unsubstantiated. witness is the test for us who are believers, thru the one who lives within us.

1thess5:21 test everything keep the good.

it is amazing the number of believers who say they believe in christ but who would never consider ever trusting that inner relationship for witnessing.

god help the believer who stands on the spirit of joe dallas's argument.

ezekiel said...

feetxxl,

"it is not sexual vice, sexual impurity, idolatry, or lustful activity, OR SELF DEFILING."

I assume you are talking about homosexuality here. Yes it is sexual vice, sexual impurity, idolatry, lustful activity and SELF DEFILING.

THE SEXUAL IMPURITY IS HERE.

Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their [own] hearts to sexual impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves [abandoning them to the degrading power of sin],

THE IDOLATRY IS HERE.

Rom 1:25 Because they exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, Who is blessed forever! Amen (so be it). [Jer. 2:11.]

THE SELF DEFILEMENT IS HERE.

Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them over and abandoned them to vile affections and degrading passions. For their women exchanged their natural function for an unnatural and abnormal one,
Rom 1:27 And the men also turned from natural relations with women and were set ablaze (burning out, consumed) with lust for one another--men committing shameful acts with men and suffering in their own bodies and personalities the inevitable consequences and penalty of their wrong-doing and going astray, which was [their] fitting retribution.

You keep telling us what you think rather than what scripture really and actually says. Now you want to drag in holocaust and anything else you can drag up to convince us that we are persecuting you.

We can't ever and I mean ever do any more to you than God has already done. Giving you up to your lusts and abondoning you to the degrading power of sin.

What we can do is love you enough to tell you where you are wrong, tell you where your interpretation of scripture is wrong and try to show you the LIGHT.

You try to convince us that you are a man/woman of faith. Yet you don't believe what scripture says. Faith is a gift of God and not of ourselves. You can't create it, you can't make it happen. It is my sincere appeal to you that you understand that if you truly have His Faith, His Gift of Faith then you will believe His Word and respond to His Spirit.

Until you do, you have been abandoned and given over to your lusts and sexual impurity. Repent, Trust in, Rely on and Adhere to the WORD. He is the only way to heaven, the only gate.

All you are doing right now is trying to force yourself in by a bunch of emotional feel good dead works. You are wasting your time at your cult activities and any emotion you show, kindness you show to others isn't born out of the Fruits of the Spirit but out of your own idolworship. Worship of the creation rather than The Creator.

But you nor I are without hope. His promise in the New Covenant is that he will remember your sins no more. All you have to do is repent and ask Him for forgiveness. If you don't then there no longer remains any sacrifice for your sin.

Heb 10:26 For if we go on deliberately and willingly sinning after once acquiring the knowledge of the Truth, there is no longer any sacrifice left to atone for [our] sins [no further offering to which to look forward].
Heb 10:27 [There is nothing left for us then] but a kind of awful and fearful prospect and expectation of divine judgment and the fury of burning wrath and indignation which will consume those who put themselves in opposition [to God]. [Isa. 26:11.]
Heb 10:28 Any person who has violated and [thus] rejected and set at naught the Law of Moses is put to death without pity or mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. [Deut. 17:2-6.]
Heb 10:29 How much worse (sterner and heavier) punishment do you suppose he will be judged to deserve who has spurned and [thus] trampled underfoot the Son of God, and who has considered the covenant blood by which he was consecrated common and unhallowed, thus profaning it and insulting and outraging the [Holy] Spirit [Who imparts] grace (the unmerited favor and blessing of God)? [Exod. 24:8.]

feetxxxl said...

ezekial

dont you find it interesting that your only proof that homosexuality is a sin is in regards to regulation...........what about romans 1:20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

are you discounting romans 1:20 that without the law no one would know it was a sin.

if not, what is it about being homosexual makes it a sin so that no one is without excuse.

we already know that more heterosexuals practice homosexual sex than homosexuals, because of the numbers(the comparative numbers of heterosexuals to homosexual) and because of the errogenous zones of the body. and they do it without recrimination. when was the last time you heard anything(sermon or teachings) about the restrictions in the marriage bed.

homosexuals have never been found lacking in any sector of society.

homosexuals bond out of the same motivations as heterosexuals. that is mutual love........for a shared commited life together.

homosexuals provide loving nurturing houses for raising children equal to that of heterosexuals as testified by the apa and all the states that allow for homosexual adoption and foster care.(the majority)


homosexuals use the same procreative methods for having children as heterosexuals who cant have children.

homosexuals bond with those they are attracted to from their first sexual memory, an attraction that they live with 24/7. the believing marriages of that bonding are filled with fruit of the spirit as those of heterosexuals.



so what is it about being homosexual that one would know it is a sin, thru what god has made, so that no one is without excuse as to what is, and what is not of god.

paul says in gal5 that the acts of the sin nature are OBVIOUS.....OBVIOUS....OBVIOUS, that by the essence of the very act itself it is obvious of its being sin.

what is so obvious about being homosexuality to know that it is a sin, by observing what god has made?

Former FBC Insider said...

misshunary,

It is a simple message and you refuse to acknowledge it. It's not just my message, it's from scripture,

HOW to love someone ---
"As I have loved you."

It is not your job to make anyone feel UNcomfortable. You are not the Holy Spirit. He does not need your 'help'. You are doing more damage than good.

I'm truly sorry that you've missed the main point in Pastor Wade's posts on love.

Who do you think you will ever win over to Christ by your tone and your tongue?

There's a great lesson in the children's song, "They Will Know We Are Christians By Our Love", maybe you've heard of it.

You said, "Whether I am hateful or not is beside the point, frankly."
Do you really believe that God will overlook your hatefulness but everyone else's sins are somehow worse than yours, and therefore punishable? I'd like to see your scripture reference on this one.

Your other classic quote, "The gospel is offensive. Deal with it."
The Gospel of Jesus Christ is most certainly NOT offensive. It is a LOVE letter. Follow the flow of it, read God's heart all through it. Maybe you could persuade your Bible Study group to go over that with you sometime. I think you will find it helpful in dealing with people. ALL people.

Where 'Feet' was stating a point of view, you called him names and became hostile toward him. Jesus sat with the woman at the well and talked with her, in love. We know the results that Jesus got. That would be a good yardstick for you to measure how it's working out for you.

Your words on this blog are now a part of your testimony.

missshunary said...

Insider - What part of that love story did the Pharisees get?

How about the Pharoahs in the O.T.? Ouch, they got some of that tough love, I guess?

And all those dead babies! Man, now that's some sweet love God's throwing down on those babies, ain't it?

There's 100 more examples of your "love story" gone awry in the bible, but clearly your theology is so scary weak you wouldn't know what I was talking about.

Which explains a lot of your weak comments. I see now why you are a FORMER insider.

Loving people is a big part of the gospel equation. But your slice is so big that all you are doing is loving people right into hell.

I love unrepentant sinners enough to ask them to repent so that they won't perish.

You are going to have people thanking you for loving them and then crying out to you, "Why didn't you tell me to repent!!!?"

I'll take my testimony any day of the week bro. Any day.

Stop commenting on blogs and go study. Yikes!

Feet - You are still addressing me regarding comments others are making. You have me mixed up with someone else.

I am not interested in commenting anymore on this subject matter so check your replies.

Thanks.

Paula said...

Former FBC Insider,

It appears that some people lump believers together with those who are not only lost but actively hostile to the gospel. Discernment is truly a lost art. Your point about love, like your clear confrontation (without rancor) of sin, is being completely missed.

As you know, but many don't, Jesus was kind and merciful to the humble, but harsh and confrontational to the proud. That's the key, that's His example, so it is vital that we discern whether the person we are talking to his openly hostile (a wolf attacking the sheep), or merely deceived. Paul also gave examples of naming the wolves and throwing them out, but not naming the deceived and instead showing how they should be won over or properly discipled.

I see both extremes as deadly. Rancor to the deceived is as poisonous as kindness to the predators. You understand this, as do many others here, but many more do not. Perhaps if the churches spent more time focusing on character and less on conventions, we'd see more discernment and depth in the average believer's life.

Just musing out loud, bro. Keep up the good work. :-)

ezekiel said...

feetxxl,

"what is so obvious about being homosexuality to know that it is a sin, by observing what god has made?"

Seems pretty obvious to me.

1Ti 1:8 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
1Ti 1:9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers,
1Ti 1:10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,
1Ti 1:11 in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.

1Co 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Maybe a better question to ask yourself is if homosexuality isn't sin then why is murder, lying, revilers, swindlers, adulteres or idolatry?

It would appear that using your logic then there really is nothing that is sin.

If that then is the case then God will be unjust when he throws all those in the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

ezekiel said...

feetxxxl,

We keep going around and around about homosexuality not being sin. I have shown you numerous scriptures, NT at that which clearly indicate that it is. One of us wrong but scripture never is. Either you believe or you don't. I can't convince you and apparently you either teach this nonsense or you have been taught it. Nothing you have been saying or trying to show lines up with any scripture but rather clearly goes against any sound doctrine.

Suit yourself. But your blood isn't on my hands. Ez 3, 18, 33.

missshunary said...

Paula - Excellent comment. I agree with your assessment.

Law to the proud and grace to the humble. God resists the proud.

It seems that if the topic isn't Calvinism, we are in agreement. :)

Have a great weekend.

Paula said...

Thanks misshunary! :-)

But then I must ask... why do you sometimes treat fellow believers as an unbeliever who is hostile to the gospel?

Former FBC Insider said...

Paula,
I agree with your complete statement as well.

Our character (our words on blogs) is what is on display for all the world to see. We are lumped together in a group as Christians, Baptists, etc... There is already an ugly reputation that we have to overcome. Someone else posted that we are known to be "mean spirited". I'd like for that to change. I don't see how a lost world or a misled believer can be won over by mean spiritedness.

Ephesians 4:22
...Let everything you say be good and helpful, so that your words will be an encouragement to those who hear them....

Ephesians 4:31
Get rid of all bitterness, rage, anger, harsh words, and slander, as well as all types of evil behavior. 32 Instead, be kind to each other, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God through Christ has forgiven you.

(I appreciate your posts throughout all of blogdom.)

Paula said...

Thankx Former! :-)

Isn't it ironic, though, that our reputation as being mean spirited tends to manifest itself more on victims than perps? We are cold-blooded to our own wounded, but we turn around and enable those that wounded them, because we, like the Pharisees, are more concerned about keeping "places" (offices, roles, whatever) than administering justice where it must be done. We have it completely backwards.

Yet at the same time, I should emphasize for anyone reading that once we admit what sin is, we MUST stand against it and not be "nice" to it.

Former FBC Insider said...

Stand against sin,
Kind to the sinner.
AMEN Paula!

missshunary said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
missshunary said...

Not sure what you mean Paula. But then again, I didn't try very hard. My interest level on these exchanges has dropped like a lead ballon.

I will say that it will always be a pet peeve of mine to be around someone who calls themself a believer and yet not confront the unrepentant sinner (homosexual, in this case).

It's cool to call them friend, share a game night, go for coffee, take vacations together. You think all my friends are saved? Not even close.

But to never confront them about their sin? Never? Wow!

Not biblical. Don't understand it. Never will.

At any rate, moving on.

Have a great Sunday!

feetxxxl said...

ADDITIONALLY about 1tim and 1cor. in england and the church of england(no seperation of church and state) knowingly or unknowingly, attempted to make homosexuality a sin, influenced by a 400 year old law being on the books enacted by another head of the church, henry the eighth, that made homosexual sex a hanging offense. they did it by the transposition of the word homosexual into scripture.

but the transposition does not support the translation of the wycliffe bible 1384

1cor:9 Whether ye know not, that wicked men shall not wield the kingdom of God? Do not ye err; neither lechers, neither men that serve maumets [neither men serving to idols], neither adulterers, neither lechers against kind, neither they that do LECHERY with men,
1tim1:10
10 and lechers, to them that do LECHERY with men, lying-mongers and forsworn, and if any other thing is contrary to the wholesome teaching, [b]

lecher..................someone who is lustfully obsessed with sexual gratification.


this reaffirms the understanding that 1tim and 1cor is about defiling lust, which reaffirms that romans 1 is about the shameful lust.
romans1:27 Also the men [the males, or men,] forsook the natural use of woman, and BURNED in their desires together


the kvj bible(1500's) supports the wycliffe interpretation.

1cor:6:9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor ABUSERS(defilers) of themselves with mankind,
1tim1:10For whoremongers, for them that DEFILE themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

romans1:27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their LUST one toward another.




again the kjv points to LECHERY as to what paul is referring to.
this in no way relates or refers to human bonding that is done out of mutual love, respect, devotion,affection,and trust for a shared committed life together. these are the things that are of christ and are of the fruit of the spirit.

that is why paul used a new word, arsenkoitai, to differeniate, from homosexuality or homosexual relations which were about bonding, ( there were other words in existence that were commonly used to denote these relations) and lecherous, shame ridden lust filled(niv) inspired relations.

that being the case, then in reverse reflection, that is what lev is about.

in additon, as in sodom, and also in that entire eastern sector of the world, one man forcing himself on another was an expression of domination and defilement.