"I went to Jerusalem to become acquainted (Gk. istoria) with Cephas" - Paul's words from Galatians 1:18.

Ever Been Embarrassed by Your Own Words?

Kevin Everett, pro football player for the Buffalo Bills, suffered a spinal injury two years ago that resulted in paralysis. The following is an actual newscast where a sportscaster is reporting on Kevin's remarkable recovery with a corresponding video - or so he thinks!


62 comments:

irreverend fox said...

THIS IS THE GREATEST CLIP I HAVE SEEN THIS YEAR!!! It really gets funny after you watch it 10-15 times in a row! I'm dying up in here Akron!!!

Robert I Masters said...

coming soon to a blog near you.

shackisheresy.blogspot.com
and
shackisheresy.wordpress.com

Rob

Jon L. Estes said...

Coming soon to a blog near you...

everyonesahereticbutme.blogspot.com

Where's the rolling eyes picture when you need them?

Wade Burleson said...

Robert,

The video is actually of one of your Sunday School teachers being carted off by your church's pastor.

:)

David Simpson said...

Sometimes working fast, and multi-tasking, can come back to bite ya...gotta SLOW down.
This is funny on about five different levels...

Doug Hibbard said...

There is a reason I haven't taken to using video clips with my messages on Sunday.


At least the guy very quickly acknowledged it was the wrong clip. Some people can't ever admit a mistake.

Thy Peace said...

The Wartburg Watch > The Next Billy Graham Goes To Prison?.

Steve said...

I've gotten stuff that wrong before!

Robert I Masters said...

Wade
Funny....but my blogs are real. They are in response to the fact that my elders can speak out via the mouthpiece of Lifeway but forbid me from offering a resolution on the floor of the convention.
It is not that they do not have the authority to ban me from the convention it just that I refuse to let them only speak on a corporate level!

Truth is truth!

Rob

John Fariss said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
John Fariss said...

Rob,

Whaaaat?

You wrote, "my elders can speak out via the mouthpiece of Lifeway but forbid me from offering a resolution on the floor of the convention." Are you saying that the two blogs you list (I checked both, and one was "not found" and the other had the single line, "Lifeway should cease the selling of the shack") are connected to Lifeway somehow? And is somehow Lifeway prohibiting you from making some resolution? I can easily imagine that such a resolution would be ruled out of order, just as most of them that I have seen which instruct an SBC agency/entity what to do have been so ruled; but can they prevent you (or anyone else) from making the motion? What exactly are you saying? I am confused (not unusual for me).

John

Jon L. Estes said...

Robert,

No one can offer a resolution from the floor of the convention.

What are you trying to say?

Robert I Masters said...

John:
What I am saying is that the elders will not let me go to the convention because they do not to get involved in The Shack controversy as a church.
But several of the members/elders are on the executive team of Lifeway and/or are involved in decisions at Lifeway that promote the selling of the Shack.
I will give the names later on but go look at Lifeways executive team and the two churches listed would be the correct names.

I suspect that will change later so I cached it.

Rob

Robert I Masters said...

Jon:
I meant doing it through the proper process.
The point is that the elders will not let me go as a messenger.

Rob

John Fariss said...

So Rob, does this alter your enthusiasm for an elder-led church?

I mean no offense in asking this. It would seem to suggest that this is an issue that has arisen recently for you. And please refresh my memory: are you an elder? A minister? Senior pastor of a church? None of the "above," but a church member?

Tell me how I can effectively pray for you in this obviously difficult time.

John

greg.w.h said...

Robert:

Sadly, you're providing a great illustration of exactly the kind of thing Wade is talking about. Instead of submitting to the leadership of your elders, you're trying to work around that leadership. You are on the path of embarrassing them, and I suspect that if you actually had a non-knucklehead conversation with them you'd find they're trying to prevent you from embarrassing both your church and yourself.

Sadly, if you COULD get a resolution brought to vote before the Annual Meeting that openly condemned the author of The Shack for misleading Christians with his "heretical viewpoints", I'm somewhat sad to say that it likely would pass. That's because Baptists of the CR seem incapable of not embarrassing themselves by chasing cars that go by the Annual Meeting.

Whether or not your resolution would have a positive impact is easy to predict: just as boycotting Disney and the Last Temptation of Christ resulted in sympathetic publicity for the people we boycott and negative publicity for ourselves, so, too, will Mr. Young benefit from your effort. You'll probably even take credit for "doing something" about heresy, so everybody wins!!

Except Jesus Christ, of course, who gets his named used as a marketing device for advancing our own agendas instead of his Kingdom. Why not spend the time and effort actually proclaiming the essence of the Gospel to someone instead?

You could even write your own, superior account--fiction or non-fiction--to compete with Mr. Young. That would be an appropriate response. Instead, your behavior makes it look like you're lacking in talents AND envious of his success. The best way to turn the page on something we dislike is to offer a better alternative.

Greg Harvey

Robert I Masters said...

John:
Not elder -led church but elder-ruled.
Overall I love my church and really The Shack thing is probably going to be brought up by someone!
My pastor preaches the Doctrines of Grace
and we have a ton of people involved in missions.
Grace is the Place to be in Nashville.

Rob

Jeff said...

What does it say in Hebrews about submitting to those in authority over us?

Robert I Masters said...

Greg:
Contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints.
I care not what the world thinks of my efforts.

BTW-the resolution said nothing of Mr Young.
the book is available at Barnes and Noble and many other pagan-centric bookstores.

Lifeway sells only Christian resources as they themselves state!
The Shack is not Christian.

If someone preaches a gospel other the true Gospel let his soul be accursed(literally be dammed).
I believe The Shack is another gospel.
I do not think that Lifeway should be selling material that will lead to a persons damming. Wickedness!!!!

Rob

Doug Hibbard said...

Jon L. Estes--

I came one-click from registering that blog name after you mentioned it. Then I was afraid of what I'd do with it.

Robert--the processes we use allow churches to select, however they choose, who serves as a messenger from the church. The idea being that it is someone the church feels will be capable of properly submitting to the Holy Spirit in the situation, guided by the Bible. If the church allows the elders to choose, but you feel they are making a bad choice, you need to figure it out with them, and if you can't accept their decision making, then you need to deal with that through the church structures you committed to take part in.

That being said, if you find The Shack to be heretical and want to blog all the reasons, go ahead. But don't mingle those issues with your disagreements with your church leadership.

As a thought, though: if your church leaders endorse heresy, should they be your church leaders? Either you're wrong, they're wrong, or the church is wrong, but somehow, somebody needs to get right.

(disclaimer note: haven't read The Shack. Don't know if it's heretical, allegorical, or phenomenal.)


Back closer to the topic: "Doctors now believe that is the wrong video." So, initially, doctors thought that was the right video?

Doug

Robert I Masters said...

I think that those of you talking about submitting should notice the context.
We are not commanded to submit to error anymore than women are commanded to submit to abuse.

Christ had a lot to say about the doctrinal purity of the Church.

Frankly I am surprised that you all seem to disagree with Wade here(on authoritarianism).


Rob

Scott said...

The Shack is fiction. Frank Peretti's books are fiction. Harry Potter is fiction. Star Wars is fiction. The Lord of the Rings is fiction. The Chronicles of Narnia are fiction.

The point I'm trying to make is that these books are fiction. However, someone tries to find meaning in them where a thousand others just read a good story. You can't control what someone does after reading a piece of literature, but you certainly can't go around advocating censorship.

The Shack is fiction that makes you feel good at the end. It's not meant to be some sort of antithesis to our churches today, but certainly there are people out there who'll try to make it some basis for some theological point. You present the correct foundation and use that as a teaching moment, not a tearing down moment, and you'll not only correct an errant thought, but you'll also have gained credibility in being able to further instruct down the road.

I can't stand it when people try to find Christ is our popular books and try to make some sort of parallel between Christ and the main character or some plot element.

Sometimes a good story is....a good story.

Doug Hibbard said...

Robert--

I may have sounded harsh toward you in my comment, which was not my intent. Direct, yes. Harsh, no.

However, John Farriss is right that the motion would be dismissed or the resolution wouldn't get out of committee. Based strictly on what is said here and known of the way the SBC operates, your elders may be trying to save you and the church embarrassment. And themselves and Lifeway and the SBC, as well.

Absolutely speak out against heresy, but what would you have Lifeway do? Stock books that no one has any objections to? Only those written by known, acceptable, non-controversial Southern Baptist authors? They wouldn't need a store. They'd need a rolling cart on the street.

Let's think here: only books written since 1845, and none by controversial figures. Also, some consider Calvinism heresy, so no Calvinist authors. Others consider Arminianism heresy, so none of those authors.

Or we could just apply this rule: all authors have to sign the 2000 BF&M, be baptized in a Southern Baptist Church, not speak in tongues, and be total abstainers from alcohol.

Is that one book, The Shack, controversial? Yes. Does that mean the author has nothing to offer Christians or that he isn't one? I don't think so. Will I be leading a "The Shack Bible Study"? Ah, no.

But blocking the book won't help. Would you rather a Lifeway employee recommend additional books to buy alongside The Shack or a Barnes and Noble employee?

Doug

Robert I Masters said...

Doug Hibbard:
So Martin Luther should not have tried to reform the Catholic church.
The issue is not authority but equality...if executives at Lifeway can make doctrinal statements through the selling of the Shack then I should be able to present contra-arguments on my own.
There is no special authority given in Scripture for "executives of lifeway".

The elders have just used the the position to make a political point.
I will the use the internet to "speak truth to power".

I do not think Wade and I disagree on this point! Not about the Shack but about the "Truth to Power".

Rob

Doug Hibbard said...

Rob--

I did notice the context. You have a disagreement with your church elders that they won't allow you to serve as a messenger from your church to the SBC. You disagree with that decision, even though it is in line with the practices the church has set forward.

So, to get the discussion on track, though off-topic: Is the problem that you aren't being allowed to be a messenger to the SBC or that Lifeway sells The Shack? Because that's two different problems. One is internal to the church, and should be dealt with there to the fullest possible, then taken outside if needed.

The other has a myriad of ways to address it, including the blog idea that you started with, but also including personally contacting the membership of the Board of Trustees for Lifeway. If your conscience is so bothered by the book, do those things. Permission from your church to exercise those options is neither necessary nor important.

No, you don't submit to error. But you also don't keep going back to a church if you think the pastor is endorsing heresy. Have you actually talked to him about it?

Doug

Doug Hibbard said...

Martin Luther, first of all, presented his arguments within the structure of the church he was a part of. When that failed, he broke away and created an entirely new church. Which, oddly enough, most Baptists wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole for the drinking and infant baptizing.

It's not exactly the same situation, but if you want to make it such, go ahead.

Executives of Lifeway are running a business, guided by the board of trustees elected by SB church messengers, and should be willing to listen to the guidance of the pastors of the churches they attend. No, there is no 'special authority' for them. Are they adding to the Scripture by selling this book? No.

Two final thoughts from me: 1. I think we're posting comments at roughly the same time, so I have some that come after yours, which look like badly phrased responses. They're more likely responses to 2 comments back in the discussion.
2.) I've spent as much time as my day will allow on this subject. I think you're making a mountain out of a mole-hill. If the SBC as a whole, or even Lifeway as a part of it, were pushing The Shack as a substitute for the Bible, you'd have a good point comparing the situation to Martin Luther. As it is, it's one book, amid a myriad of books, and it's a work of fiction to boot. I like Lord of the Rings and the Chronicles of Narnia, and see some allusions to Christian theology in both, especially Narnia. But I strive to learn the theology and truth from the Bible.

I hope you're able to work out your differences with your church leadership. If they allow you to serve as a messenger to the SBC this year, send me an email from my blogger profile. I'll buy you a cup of coffee during a break.

Doug

Jon L. Estes said...

Robert,

LifeWay is not an entity of the SBC. It receives no CP dollars. It gives to the CP out of its profits.

If you have a problem with LifeWay, take it up with them. The convention can't make them do anything.

John Fariss said...

Dear Rob,

A minor question re: our exchange. You said, "Not elder -led church but elder-ruled." What is the difference?

I think Jon and Doug are trying to give you some good advice.

Am praying for your peace, wisdom, and discernment.

John

Garen Martens said...

My goodness Robert! Wade posted a funny clip and you turn it into a Shack Attack. You need to get a life and laugh a little.

Tom Parker said...

Garen:

Robert is an odd one. I think he really needs to RELAX.

Robert I Masters said...

Doug:
I need to publish two letters from the elders that will clarify those issues.
I intend too....To this point I believe I have followed Biblical guidelines for disputes in a local church.
They think I should now submit or leave.
I believe that a third way is work for reformation via the medium of the internet in order that the Church universal would have impact on the local church. Mind you I do not mean bind them but public controversy has a way of clarifying a local church's doctrinal stance.

The argument goes like this
elders ....we do not have a public take on the Shack.
Rob ....Yes you do because Executives at Lifeway are part of the process that concluded there was no theological error in the Shack and that Lifeway would sell the book. Also an elder who works as a consultant for Lifeway clearly stated to me that he did not see the Shack has heresy.

elders....well that is there position outside of their role here at Grace Community.

Rob...Thats a false dichotomy, you do not separate worldviews at the drop of a hat. You believe that is okay for the christians that buy lifeway material but not okay for christians that attend Grace Community...please that is hypocrisy.

Rob

Tom Parker said...

Robert:

I really do not think you are listening to any of us who care about you and are offering you some very good advice.

Jeff said...

Rob, Go to the FBC of Rob. I think you might have one day of peace before you find something to argue with yourself about. Your example has been used by God to open my heart to the reality I do not have all the truth. I am so glad that I decided I don't need to be God, and I can others disagree with me and still fellowship with me.

I read the Shack (finally) It was better than I thought. I still have some issues with it, but I am not going to say it teaches heresy.

I do not buy its fiction argument. I think Young is writing fictional theology.

Robert I Masters said...

Doug Hibbard:
you said:


"Are they adding to the Scripture by selling this book? No."

Yes they are and millions of people have equated the book as almost equal to Scripture in terms of the impact on their lives. A large number even said it had more impact then the Word of God.

Rob

Robert I Masters said...

Jeff:
I like Grace community Church here in Nashville. No plans to leave!

I am thankful that Scott preaches the Doctrines of Grace.

Rob

Tom Parker said...

Rob:

This blog item is labeled humor. It is a stretch of the imagination that you have taken this blog where it is right now.

Let me repeat--humor--humor. Do you see a pattern--humor-humor.

Robert I Masters said...

John:
The difference in ruling elders and elder led is that the authority on one rests in the elders and on the other with the congregation.

BTW...If you teach your people correct doctrine then the two rarely conflict.

Rob

Christiane said...

I am wondering about the power of this little book by Paul Young to stir the wrath of some Christians and to bring others to Christ for the first time.

Could it be that sometimes we get 'too comfortable' in our 'Christianity' ?
You know what I mean:
'I' as opposed to 'them':
the unbelievers, the homosexuals, the 'sinners', the low-lifes, the alcoholics, the 'heretics', people of the Islamic faith, the liberals, the Democrats, the abortionists, the list is endless isn't it?
The ones we think we are so different from? The ones who 'deserve' our contempt?


And then comes a little book that challenges the right to hate, to feel superior, to be 'unforgiving'.
A little book that asks us to see things differently for a time.
And some did: and they are angry at Paul Young who threatens their concept of 'Christianity'.

But for others, a different result: an ability to hear the soft voice of the Lord call their name for the very first time,
or maybe for the first time in a very long time.

I suppose it's not 'The Shack' that is responsible for all this 'reaction'.
It is, after all, just a little book of fiction, hardly a major work of literature.

I think the 'reaction' depended on the condition of the readers who first opened up the little book and encountered the story within it. I may be right about this. Love, L's

Lydia said...

"Lifeway sells only Christian resources as they themselves state!
The Shack is not Christian."

Robert, what about Your Best Life Now? The Lifeway in my city had a huge display on it. And what about Velvet Elvis? They sold that too...prominently. There are tons of books that have questionable theology sold at Lifeway.

Robert, you must submit to your elders and their authority. They have spoken and know what is best. After all, God put them in that position and they are specially anointed. You are in rebellion and sin for questioning them. You just do not like what the Bible teaches about elders so you are trying to change it's plain meaning to suit your liberalism. You sound like the feminists now. You should understand that you are equal to your elders but have a different role. You are stepping outside your role on this one, friend. You are attempting to teach your elders and that is verboten in your role as pew sitter and relative nobody at church.


(sorry, could not resist)

Robert I Masters said...

Doug:
You said

"But blocking the book won't help. Would you rather a Lifeway employee recommend additional books to buy alongside The Shack or a Barnes and Noble employee?"

Nobody is talking about boycotting the book here.

I would rather a Barnes and Noble employee sell it because no one will be confused as to whether it is Christian or not!

Scott:
Please go listen to Mr Gordons presentation at SBCtoday

Rob

Robert I Masters said...

Christiane:
or it may be because we worship a god of our own making ...an idol and we like that idol.
Maybe he is the therapeutic deist that Christian Smith talks about in his book.

http://tinyurl.com/nn6jjo

Rob

Jeff said...

Remember Robert, They are spiritually mature. I guess they didn't want to send someone who was immature to the national convention.

Robert I Masters said...

Lydia:
I am laughing ....that was funny!

In fairness I agree with you on what Lifeway sells.... come join with my seeing if we can have an impact on that here in Geneva.

I am all about reformation...even at Lifeway.


hey do not tell anyone but our church usually does not buy from Lifeway but rather Logos bookstore. Good Puritan and Reformed stuff owned by a Presbyterian....gasp


Rob

Christiane said...

Hi ROBERT,

The secret is the Gift of Discernment from the Holy Spirit who abides within.

We know His Voice. We recognize His Voice.
Like the sheep of the pasture, we hear the Voice that murmurs
'Come, Come to the Father'

I have heard that some believe in a God of Justice who is judgmental and condemning of those who 'don't measure up'.

I have heard that some believe in a God of Justice who asks us to seek out justice for the sake of the poor, the oppressed, and the broken of this Earth.

Which God do you believe in, Robert?

Love you dearly, L's

Lydia said...

"come join with my seeing if we can have an impact on that here in Geneva."

Geneva would burn me at the stake or put me in prison or drown me in the Rhone.

greg.w.h said...

Jon L. Estes wrote:

LifeWay is not an entity of the SBC. It receives no CP dollars. It gives to the CP out of its profits.

If you have a problem with LifeWay, take it up with them. The convention can't make them do anything.


Technically, Lifeway is listed in the Manual of Organization with the entities. I think the term entity might have originated in the 1995 time frame as the effort was made to convert all of the entities to single-member corporations with the SBC as the single member. Only the Women's Missionary Union is listed separately as an auxiliary and the SBC has no control over its program statement.

It is true that Lifeway Christian Resources and the Sunday School both traditionally operate with positive net revenue and the surplus is returned to the Convention.

In fact, Lifeway's "Who We Are" page says this:

An entity of the Southern Baptist Convention. LifeWay is a religious nonprofit organization that receives no funding from the denomination and reinvests income above operating expenses in mission work and other ministries around the world.

I'm a fan of precision when discussing the SBC. On one hand, it prevents misunderstandings, and on the other dispassionate discussion seems to me to be an excellent way to cool down hot emotions.

Greg Harvey

Paula said...

Lydia,

Excellent tongue-in-cheek (with a serious point)! You might be interested in a little parody I did at my blog.

And now I can say something about The Shack because I'm not the one who took this all off-topic. ;-)

There is a rare non-gushing review Here, which points out that the main issue is with its panentheism, not necessarily its portrayal of the Trinity (personally, I find the recent attempts to put hierarchy in the Trinity to be heretical and downright Arian). Truth mixed with error is the best way to deliver error. And fiction is the best way to get people to swallow it.

Now if the churches had been doing their job all these generations-- teaching scripture and analysis instead of spoonfeeding pet interpretations-- the people would not be so easily led astray. I'd rather have "the lowly masses" well-educated and "un-covered" than rely on a few elites and their magical, mystical protection.

And oh yeah... funny video!

Jeff said...

Where does the Shack say God is everything?

Scott said...

This whole deal about "The Shack" is only a big deal because we're making it a big deal. There's no accompanying bible study outline with it or anything. In my own personal opinion, it's a case where people would rather have a book burned rather than take the time to use this as a teaching opportunity because it's easier to attack something rather than invest in creating the lessonplans. I am in no way defending "The Shack" but I do honestly feel that a book like this would have been a prime opportunity for so many pastors to teach the proper, sound doctrinal beliefs of the Southern Baptist denomination and why we believe the way that we do by comparing the statements of "The Shack" with what scripture actually says in the Bible.

Of course, you can expect this to all flare up even worse when the movie adaptation hits the big screen. I can hear the screams now...

Paula said...

Jeff,

There are quotes in the link I posted.

Robert said...

The Shack is Wickedness...no Southern Baptist should have anything to do with The Shack!

Rob

Scott said...

In the world, not of the world...

Joe Blackmon said...

The Shack is Wickedness...no Southern Baptist should have anything to do with The Shack!

Robert,
You are wrong here, buddy. No Christian should have anything to do with the Shack. :-)

By the way, we were at your church Sunday. Dude's sermon on the talents was very encouraging. If I'd known you went there I'd have made a point of looking you up.

Robert said...

Joe:
I apologize you are absolutely correct.

BTW....I love the Church I attend.

Rob

Joe Blackmon said...

Robert,

It's too far of a drive for us from Mt Juliet. The dude that is leading your worship this next Sunday and I went to Montevallo together.

Anyway, small world.

Robert said...

Joe:
Glad you came Sunday and come back anytime.
P. S... we have a number that do come from Mt Juliet.

Elisabeth said...

That clip was great!!! I laughed sooo hard!

I'm the one in charge of the computers and projection equipment on Sunday mornings. Maybe I should show "the wrong clip?" (Just kidding!)

Doug Hibbard said...

Robert--

I look forward to reading your blog content supporting the idea that the Shack is heresy. After you establish that, then the rest of this will fall into place, as I doubt anyone here disagrees that a church or convention entity that openly supports or quietly ignores blatant heresy needs to be addressed. The church should clean its house,and the convention deal with its entity, if these things are established.

So bring on the evidence, but be prepared for people to discuss and debate it with you. I'll keep checking the blogs you reserved for that purpose. Are you as willing to listen to them as you hope they are willing to listen to you?

Doug

Robert said...

Doug Hibbard:
I do intend to do that but more on a local church level.
The idea that the Shack is heresy has been written about by many fine Scholars.
Probably most notably for Southern Baptist is Al Mohler.

http://www.albertmohler.com/radio_show.php?cdate=2008-04-11

We also had a big discussion on it here it Wades Blog....not sure if Wade cut out the comments or just labeled under some other title.

Rob

Tom Kelley said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Tom Kelley said...

Paula said...
And now I can say something about The Shack because I'm not the one who took this all off-topic. ;-)


Where are the blog police?

Apparently it's only bad when certain people go off topic, huh? :)

Just kidding, folks ... carry on!

Paula said...

(::wink wink:: to Tom)

"Only now, at the end, do you understand." --The Emperor, StarWars ep. VI