Unbelievable.The world is in need of a gospel revival.
You cannot 'revive' what was never planted.
Anonymous: Agreed."The world is in need of a gospel awakening" How's that?
The Lord gives, and the Lord takes away. We cannot look at this as an invasion of evil. All are born in a state of evil and deadness, but all are born through God’s sovereign design as children of Abraham. From that perspective we have no new challenge. Our concern must be for the loss of the glory of our Sovereign among the nations. I appreciate Steve's comment, but we are not called to bring revival. We are called to spread the glory of God, and the love of His Son's most sacred heart to the nations. Only the Spirit can revive the hearts of the dead.We have failed as a people of God to "go." Now, he is bringing people of all tribes, and tongues and nations to our doorsteps. And still we spit at their feet.'Lord have mercy on your people this day.'K
I attended a lecture on world population and food supply a few years ago (Rice University Alumni College). They expected that the world population would stabilize at some point (I don't remember exactly when--2030 or a few years later) because the world's population would have become prosperous. And stability and prosperity make children a project, not a need. So the birth rate drops.I wonder what they would say today about the same subject. I don't recall that they mentioned the fact that European rates had fallen so low. I also wonder if the birth rate is really 8.1 for Muslims. http://www.prb.org/Articles/2009/karimpolicyseminar.aspx This web site shows only one country with a birth rate above 7 out of 46 Muslim majority countries. My last curiosity is what will the birth rate for Muslims become as they become a major part of the European population and become prosperous. The answer to this seems to be that the rate is dropping but it is still a lot higher than the "native European" birth rate. In France, the "native" rate seems to be about 1.3 (like Italy and Germany) and the Muslim rate around 4. (The French had a large influx of Muslims from their old colonies in North Africa.) It is still going to produce the situation that the film makers forecast but it may take longer.Maybe I'll live long enough to find out.Another demographic bit of data: In China during the "Great Leap Forward," the birth rate got up to over 5 per woman. Those people are now in their productive years--and the birth rate is supposed to be somewhat below 1 per woman right now with the one child rule. Thus they have few children to occupy their time and money. Talk about a baby boom and now a baby bust! How they deal with this is going to be interesting. They will have this huge industrial production set up and have no workers for it. Maybe they will import labor from India.Bennett Willis
The birth rate can be much higher when you are talking about mulitple wives. Bin Laden was one of 53 children. His father was a properous businessman. So, prospertity prompted him to have MORE wives and children..
As fascinating as the information for Western Europe and America is concerning Islam, we have to realize that Christianity is growing in nearly every Islamic state in the world. The only two places not experiencing a revival right now is Western Europe and North America. This is not a statement about Islam but a failure on the part of Christians. It is not a political battle for our country but a spiritual battle for the Kingdom. Why are we dying while the rest of the world is experiencing revival?
I think this video is over dramatic. Yes, there is an increase in the Muslim population but, "France will become a Islamic Republic." that is misleading. The population's religion does not automatically make up a country's political government. The US has more Christians than any other religious group, but we are not a "Christian Republic" compared to Iran's "Islamic Republic." This video is playing hard and fast with numbers and is making sweeping generalizations. Also, it is pitting hard core extremists with ALL Muslims. That's like trying to put Jim Jones into the same group as all Christians. It is trying to scare people into action, which I think is the wrong motivation for evangelism.
"Why are we dying while the rest of the world is experiencing revival?"dying?look around you'leaders' stealing from tithe money to feather their own nestsarguments in support of 'torture' coming from church leaders as 'acceptable'missionaries being stabbed in the back by their own support organizationdying? it's been going on for a while now and you didn't noticeas for the 'why'? Please, all those 'Christians' who looked the other way and did nothing to stop the shenanigans had to know that eventually there would be a 'price to pay' for their abandonment of Jesus? Surely they knew that?
Alan,People need reminded. Humans forget and become complacent. This is not a matter of being scared, it is a matter of being saddened that the glory of God is not being revealed by His people to the nations--EVERY nation.
Kevin, Yes, people need to be reminded, but if you read Wade's blog you can see how honesty and accountability are critical. Some of the conclusions in the video are grossly inaccurate. I even question the sources of this information in the video. How can one ignore the statements like, "France will become a Islamic republic." solely on assumptions made by population growth? We remind our congregations every Sunday morning of important facts and stories, but we should never do so with misleading facts or even jumping to conclusions. For instance, if you check the CIA world fact book https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/index.html a number of the statistics are inaccurate. Go there for yourself to see the birth rate numbers, which are actually HIGHER than the video mentions. If Christians are going to make these statements, they should be correct. And, they should not try to manipulate people into thinking that some horrible take over of Muslims is going to occur.
Would any Muslim leader have treated Dr. Klouda worse than Paige Patterson did?It couldn't get much worse than what she had to suffer.Its when you can't tell who the 'good guys' are any more that things get out of control.
Birth rates are frequently quoted in births/woman--and generally run between 1.2 and about 8 for a large group. 2.1 is regarded as the "replacement number" of births/woman for obvious reasons. The men don't count. Some of the frequent commenters on this blog might find this interesting. :)
i don't see who or what organization produced and published this video. anyone know?
Alan,Statisticians and researchers look at trends. Are you telling me you cannot see the visible trend?I am going to throw our surce back in your face. Look at the trend my friend. Forget religion for a moment. Just look at those nations who are gowing-holding their own-dying.Please. You owe Wade an apology. Click here for the truth
Kevin,Clearly, you have misunderstood, in the face of evidence, what my whole point is. Your comment:"I am going to throw our surce back in your face" What does that mean? Anyways. You cannot see the forest from the trees. This video, without a group to claim it, has used half-truths and inaccuracies. Of course there is a trend, duh! But, they are blaring mistakes in this video. I am not auguring with you about this trend, but merely pointing out how the video presents the trend. It is clear that you cannot comprehend that. You probably think Obama is a Muslim. Anyway, I am going to send my time else where since you cannot comprehend the salient details of a discussion.
Kevin,No apology from anonymous is needed.I usually do not respond to anonymous comments, but because you addressed him in defense of me, I will respond to you.Whether or not the data source of this video is accurate or not, I do not know. All I know is I watched it and it made me pause and think about some things.I would encourage anyone, before there is blanket acceptance of the premise of the video, to search it out for yourself.Unsurprisingly, this is what I tell the people who listen to me preach all the time. They should always verify for themselves.In His Grace,Wade
Well, my husband and I had our four kids. We did our duty. What are the rest of you doing? ;)
"You probably think Obama is a Muslim. "I don't have proof that he isn't.
"The only two places not experiencing a revival right now is Western Europe and North America."What a stupid comment. You obviously don't live and work in Eastern Europe.Anonymous' and their uneducated, blanket statements crack me up.See my crack?
•One in 10 people in the world is an active Christian (in 6 million Christian churches)•90,000 people become Christians daily worldwide (20,000 in Africa; 15,000 in India)•35% of Korea’s population is Christian (56% of Russia’s and 15% of Indonesian’s)•Largest English-speaking mission field in the world: United States of America•100 million Americans are unchurched (in no religious services during last 6 months)•American churches on average: need 85 members to win one soul for Jesus Christ•Each day, 411 Americans convert to Islam, 872 become Mormons (Buddhism growing)•69% of all SBC congregations were plateaued/declining numerically in 2006 (30,470)•2006: 27,521 of 44,223 SBC congregations reported 0-5 baptisms (274 reported 100+)•11 million Texans are unchurched, but one in 10 Texans is a BGCT Texas Baptist" It’s true that the list above doesn’t tell the whole evangelism story in the world today, but the message seems clear anyway that: (1) a great harvest is being reaped outside of the United States because non-Christians in other countries are responding in incredible numbers with repentance toward God and faith in Christ as the good news about Jesus is shared intentionally by missionaries or other believers in relevant and relational ways; (2) similar potential for spiritual awakening exists in the U.S. among its tens of millions who also are unsaved but curious; and, (3) the average American Christian and church functions far less intentionally, relationally, and relevantly in evangelism than do believers living for the Lord Jesus elsewhere in the world. The info above suggests, too, that future generations of lost Americans will be won by some gospel even if that “good news” has nothing at all to do with Jesus Christ—and that prospect simply isn’t acceptable to any serious follower of Him."(Find more church growth factoids at: www.highpowerresources.com; www.lifeway.com; and www.bgct.org.)
email@example.comI wonder what those stats would be if we had all the americans that have ABORTED living today. AND I wonder what those stats would be if we had gone full speed ahead with BOLD MISSION THRUST after 1979. AND I wonder if we had all those ABORTED people AND Bold Mission Thrust together what the stats would be.WONDER HOW MUCH BIGGER CHRISTIANITY WOULD BE.just firstname.lastname@example.org
The website snopes covers this video at the following link;www.snopes.com/politics/religion/demographics.asp
HASN'T SNOPES BEEN PRETTY LEFT OVER THE YEARS?
For Anon 04:04:00 PM http://www.islam-watch.org/AbulKasem/Moderate-Islamic-Beheading-honor-killing-in-Buffalo.htm
May the Lord examine our own yeast in our lives, clear it out, and let it be that Cross of Christ be the only offense....revival did spread when the magic arts books were tossed out of the assembly of Ephesus (Act 19).
I've seen this video and others like it recently...Living here in St. Louis, I served at a church in far south St. Louis county for thirteen years. Several years ago myself and several others started prayer walking in area of the city where thousands of Bosnian Muslims were and are now living. Long story short... I am now teamed up with some guys planting a new church in this very neighborhood. After four months, we have people attending from six or seven different countries. My wife and I just got home from having Turkish coffee with some of our new friends from Turkey and teaching English in another home of new friends here in St. Louis who just arrived a few months ago from Iraq. One of the guys is a Muslim. He hasn't attended church yet and who knows if he ever will. I just know that God has called us to "go." And that includes into parts of our city where thousands of Muslims now live. It's interesting to see evangelicals arguing over who has THE truth. If you have the truth of the Gospel, do something with it...make a friend, have some tea, help a new immigrant or refugee make a home in this country. Get to know them, love them, and yes...share Jesus with them. I am done with the debates. It's time to do something with the truth we claim to have.
Darren,What a fantastic story. Bevo Mill has to be a God thing. The mission field dropped in the lap of the churches of STL. I trust you will covet our prayers for your endeavor.I would however like a clarification. Are you saying that you are against the discussion of ecclesiology and epistemology? Additionally, are you implying that each of us on here is not engaged in ministry? There are at least 2 readers of this blog from STL who could be persuaded to assist in your mission endeavor. But now you might have to buy them a tea, or a meatloaf sandwich from City Dinner, and sit and discuss your ecclesiological and epistemological philosophies before they would commit. :)Even the bad people who comment on this blog are pretty good people. k
Darren said, 'I am done with the debates. It's time to do something with the truth we claim to have.'Wonderful insight.All those doctrinal debates don't amount to anything compared to sharing the gospel with someone in a caring, Christian manner.Maybe the debates were just a way to AVOID doing our duty as Christians.
Rev Kev"Are you saying that you are against the discussion of ecclesiology and epistemology? Additionally, are you implying that each of us on here is not engaged in ministry?"no and of course not...It was just a late night thought, after an interesting evening in the homes of refugees, a thought which says that when the debates have taken the priority over the mission, then we have a problem. No accusations my brother, just sharing what I am personally aiming for in ministry. I am far from there, I still struggle too greatly with my own pride and selfishness. I enjoy the City Diner too...cool place...but right now, I'm totally caught up with the green curry at Basil Spice down the street.btw - I'm envious of your time at Covenant. If I didn't already have two jobs, plus the lack of cash, I would be working on my DMin there.
Well, Darren, your selfishness and pride (qualities which I struggle with as well) has not overshadowed your obvious heart for ministry and I wish you all the best. Email me any time. I move on campus at Covenant in 5 weeks and would at the very least love to pray for you.K
Kevin,Try taking his word for it. Trying checking out his memebership in a Black Baptist Church in Chicago. Because he is a Democrat you do not have to hate him. Quit speaking in hyperbole. It will eventually hang you. Phil in Norman.
Kevin,By the way, I am pulling for you and am so glad to see your hunger to learn by preparing yourself for the exciting things God has in store for you right now and tomorrow.Some time ago, I placed you on our church prayer list. I was worried that the last church experience would leave you embittered. I am glad you have not allowed that to happen.Keep fighting and loving.Phil in Norman.
"Black Baptist Church in Chicago"One that preaches Marxist Liberation Theology and hating whites.Have you not taken the time to listen to Jeremiah Wright? (oh, make that "Obama pre run for the presidency" Jeremiah Wright. He cleaned up his act after that)
You might want to run a 'snopes' check on your video.David in VA
anonymous and anonymous, get over your left-phobia.
Yeah Happy Gram... Us conservatives can really learn from the left about phobias.. You all dont have phobias over anything. You don't care about doctrine, abortion, or traditional marriage. I apologize on behalf of all conservatives for having doctrine and ethics. It appears that you and the rest of the left need to get over your phobia of not fitting in and pleasing the world and start taking a stand on the issues that Scripture demands.. If you are unsure about what those issues are doctrine and abortion is a good place to start.Kevin
Yeah, but WHOSE doctrine?How many different versions of Christianity are there out there now? hundreds? or thousands?WHOSE got it RIGHT?Kevin, have YOU got it RIGHT?
Phil,Thank you for the second post, it really means alot. As to the first post, I am not concerned with anyone's polical affiliation, nor did I know. Oh, still don't care. :) I am curious however to know why you think I hate (darren?).Lastly, I am not sure it is wise to speak of black churches and hangings in the same post. ;)This is too funny,Word Ver: regan
i am AGAINST abortions, FOR traditional marriage and DO care about doctrine. what i DON'T care for is the hate-mongering, mean-spirited Right. they often act less like the very Man they claim to follow.
At the present time, our country is with you, Happy Gram.The 'right-wing' had its years of power and control and the result is a terrible example of what mean-spirited hatred can do to a country.They almost destroyed us from within. The church aligned itself with the 'right-wing' and now faces a time of introspection, having allowed itself to be manipulated by hate-mongers and ideologues.Most Americans are aghast at the spectacle of 'far-right' religion with its nit-picking, squabbling act infused into witch-hunts and crowning of demi-gods portrayed as 'Christian leaders' who are nothing more than thieves and charlatans.But still they pride themselves in their positions against the 'usual suspects' that they line up for the rallying cry to 'stone them, stone them'.They wonder why church numbers are in decline. They must know that they are almost unrecognizable as Christians and the world has seen the charade for what it truly was: an act to gain political power and control. Nothing more.
what i DON'T care for is the hate-mongering, mean-spirited Right. they often act less like the very Man they claim to follow.Translation: You can be anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage, and believe in biblical doctrine as long as you keep your big, fat, "right-wing" mouth shut about it, don't carry it into the voting booth, and don't work within the confines of law to change anything.
Anon 10:49Why don't you quit your blasted whinning. No one ever thought 'Pubs walked on water and that all Dems were going to hell. I always thought James Dobson was an idiot. But you "Mainstream" christians got what you wanted so quit your belly-aching. You made sure the most pro-abotion president EVER made it into the White House. You made sure that the Hate-Crimes bill that has been kept in check for years is now going to finally be passed making it a crime for someone to say hommosexuality is immoral. You got what you wanted. I'm sure you can sleep easy now. So what are you whinning about?Just to further clarify--I am not saying that I question the salvation of someone for voting for a democrat. I question the intelligence of someone who claims to believe abortion is immoral who voted for someone who has made it perfectly clear by word and deed that he is not only not going to restrict access to abotions but is going to expand that access.
Eight years.A country almost in ruins economically and morally bankrupt in the eyes of many because of the torture policies of leaders.And the church presided in approval over the whole hypocritical mess.No whining.The truth hurts, doesn't it, Joe?You can't run from the record of the past eight years. It happened.Value life? Why?So more babies can be born for an out-of-control fundie to send into a phony war to fight and die?That's not valuing life.Half-baked 'values' come across as hypocritical. Placing weight on only one aspect of the value of life, while ignoring all other aspects is hypocrisy at its worst.You need to be either hot or cold.Value life? Do it across the board. Take a stand completely for life and all that it means. Why not? Too much in love with the death penalty and all those guns out there that kill children?Too much in love with leaders who start wars and lie to the people?Let go of the hypocrisy and embrace life totally as a value, not just the part thats 'easy' to 'talk about'. Some things can't be embraced 'half-way'.
And of course, you can PROVE that he lied, right? No one with an ounce of sense claims that he wasn't WRONG about there being weapons of mass destruction but if you're going to talk about someone lieing you should at least try to PROVE it.Of course the death penalty is moral. You have read that part in Romans "The government does not bear the sword for nothing". What the blazes do you libs think they did with swords back then? Play tiddly-winks?People with sense realize that the economic mess we're in is the fault of 'Pubs and 'Dems. Go out and rent a clue. Pass all the gun control laws you want. They will only keep honest people from getting guns. Crooks will still have as many as they want.There are two questions that every Christian should ask about an elected official--"What is your stance on abortion? What is your stance on gay marriage?" If someone has the right answer to those questions and a record to back that answer up it is very easy and clear who you should vote for if you only have two choices. For the record, there are 'Pubs that are pro-abotion and 'Dems that are anit-abortion so I obviously do NOT mean that being a Christian means you ALWAYS vote for the 'Pubs.
I agree with you Joe.As for the pseudo-christian anony, I sure wish his mom would have thought it wise to keep her baby from this bad old world and had an abortion.But alas, we have to sit through the silly comments due to her decision to not abort.Bummer.
Joe, you keep real fine company there. Super Christian anony approves of aborting anyone who disagrees with him. Very revealing.
I have nothing to do with what anyone says on here. I am responsible for my opinions and what I write--no one elses.
Fair enough. But look who you inspire, Joe.Is that what you really want?I don't think so.
Anon, It is just that same sort of ridiculous reasoning that is leading to the Hate Crime legislation that you and your ilk are so proud of. Try, just try, to get this through your oh so thick skull---regardless of what someone else says or does, unless I am responsible for them I am not accountable for their actions. Period. So if after I preach/teach/write that homosexuality is a sin some idiot hears/reads that and decides "I'm going to go beat up that gay person" as long as I don't advocate violence and I am not responsible for that person, THEY are accountable for their actions, not me.I know, this whole "personal responsiblity" concept is a difficult one for libs to get. I know, I know.
The hate you harbor in your heart will drive Jesus from it.
"I know, this whole "personal responsiblity" concept is a difficult one for libs to get."Whoa. Look at all the neo-cons howling about 'torture was legal'Talk about not taking responsibility for their illegal actions. Two-edged sword, the truth.It slices through all the crap.
I'll tell you what would be great in this country--a good old fashioned civil war. The good guys verses the libs. And let's see, which way do most folks in the military lean again? I forget.
How 'bout all you neo-cons go to Texas and the governor declares succession from 'the Union'.Sounds good. Then you all can wallow in your own filth and pick each other apart in your corrupt hatred. Good when hate has to deal with hate. Americans are sick of your crap. To Texas with you.And good riddance. BTW our military ARE loyal Americans. Very, very loyal.'cept maybe some of the Air Force neo-cons. But now, they are known for what they are.It's Americans vs. neo-cons.
Reading these most recent comments, I am compelled to repeat the same thing I said to Joe once before--something which, I note, he ignored at the time both by not responding to verbally and by not changing his rhetoric about (but at least he has the intestinal fortitude to put his name to it). So here it is, "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." 1 Cor 13Because of the level of anger that you all are displaying, I might also add, "In your anger do not sin: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry" (Eph 4: 26) and "Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice." (Eph. 4:31)Now if you guys want to call me a liberal or a weakling or whatever else--I think I'm in pretty good company.John
thanks John, you are a Christian.
"President Obama made clear on Wednesday that a controversial abortion rights law is not among his top priorities, despite a campaign promise that signing the bill would be his first act in office." Fox News April 30, 2009hmmmm....maybe praying for our President re: issues we disagree with him on, IS effective.....
He appears to want to build some kind of a 'consensus' where all sides on the abortion issue can find some common ground to start making abortions 'less necessary'.Interesting.
hmmmm....maybe praying for our President re: issues we disagree with him on, IS effective..... hmmmm...or maybe voting only for anti-abortion candidates since the goal should not be to reduce abortions but to make it illegal which will have the effect of reducing abortions would be more effective...Anti-abotion President+Anti-abortion legislators=abortion becomes illegalSimple, n'est pas?
This is AMERICA Joe.And we have voted.
Way to completely miss the point, annony...The christians who voted for Obama cannot soothe their conscience for not voting correctly (i.e. voting for an anti-abortion candidate) by saying "Look, he's taking his time signing this. Maybe he'll work with us to reduce the number of abotions". The fact is he is commited to keeping abotion legal and putting judges on the bench who are going to do the same. The fact is that the pro-abortion dominated legislature wants to put people like that on the bench. The christians who voted for those people are responsible for their choice. The Christians who stand for what the Bible says will have to endure the persecution that comes with standing for the rights of the unborn.
A LOT of Christians voted Obama.It's the ones who voted for the Bush/Cheney debacle that are in trouble now. They must wonder when they look at the faces of our dead soldiers on TV, if God will ever forgive them for putting those animals into office.
A LOT of Christians voted Obama. Those christians were tired of standing up for Biblical morality. They're called Mainstreamers. Of course, Paul did say in Thessolonians that there would be a falling away from the faith so those folks voting for Obama should be expected.word verification-"olfundy"...Yes I am, thank you.
Fundy: islamic or christian?
That's good to know.That someone had to ask is the problem.
I stand for what the Bible says. NOONE can tell me what I believe or whether or not I am in the world, of the world or on top of the world. I base my decisions on choice of political candidate on more than 2 questions and yes, I believe God can change hearts and minds. And as before, I'm done with this discussion because I've learned that it is impossible to have a sensible debate on this topic with angry, accusing opponents... and don't even get me started on the hate crime bill...have a peaceful night and God bless you.
I stand for what the Bible says. And you demonstrated your commitment to stand for the Bible by voting for someone who was the most pro-abortion candidate that there has ever been. (scratches head)NOONE can tell me what I believe or whether or not I am in the world, of the world or on top of the world. You're right. How you vote tells that story.I base my decisions on choice of political candidate on more than 2 questions No one is saying you shouldn't. Those should just be the first two quseions a Christian asks when they vote. If the candidate doesn't have the right answers to those (anti-abotion, anti "gay rights") then it shouldn't matter what the other stances are if there are onloy two choices (i.e. President).and yes, I believe God can change hearts and minds. So you and your fellow mainstreamers, again showing your commitement to stand for what the Bible stands for, voted for a President hoping that God would change his mind? You were willing to bet the lives of innocent unborn children on Obama changing his mind?and don't even get me started on the hate crime bill Which I am perfectly willing to bet you are 100% in favor of. At least it'll muzzle those mean-sprited preachers who dare proclaim from the pulpit that homosexuals need to repent of their sin....have a peaceful night and God bless you. You do the same.
i am SO sorry and so grateful the blinders have been removed. somehow i thought the hate-crime bill was about protecting ANYONE, regardless of gender, race or sexual orientation, from assault or vicious attacks. i would suppose it would include protecting even those who ARE prejudiced against any of the above. interestingly, it says NOTHING about condoning homosexuality.
somehow i thought the hate-crime bill was about protecting ANYONE, regardless of gender, race or sexual orientation, from assault or vicious attacksWe already have something that does that. It's called the law. If someone viciously attacks another person they have broken that law. That law should be enforced. Unless it was self defense it does not and should not matter why they did it. If someone attacks another person because they are gay that is a crime and the attacker should be punished under our existing laws just the same as if they had attacked a white guy, a woman, or anyone else regardless of why they attacked them.
Joe,Something I have discovered in my own life over the last several years is that it is harder to condemn another believer when I am actively serving alongside them in some Kingdom capacity. I could quite easily spend a week railing against consubstantiation and my dogmatic view of the non-sacramental nature of the Lord's Supper, but after spending over a year on a ministerial alliance board with a Lutheran (MS) pastor I began to realize that this small town Baptist boy ain't the only one who can serve the Lord and do it right. I am learning to embrace our methodological differences. Even to some extent our theological differences. You keep railing against homosexuality and while you, Wade, myself, and nearly all of the rest of the readership of this blog acknowledge that the revealed will of God declares this to be unrighteous in the sight of God and against His will, one must ask the question, will you ever get the opportunity to witness to a homosexual due to your apparent hatred of their presence?A couple things to remember. All of Christianity and nearly all the world know that Christians and the Bible consider homosexuality a sin. It is not something to shout from the rooftops. (the horse has already been killed.) The world knows better our view of homosexuality than they do the need for a personal relationship with Christ—sad. As one who has, and will again one day plan yearly preaching schedules around Christian holidays, modified protestant liturgical practices, and Holy Spirit guided expository preaching plans, the topic of railing against homosexuality comes up rather infrequently. And when it does, it does so in the context of other sins to which heterosexuals suffer equally or with greater turmoil. Preaching against Homosexuality from the pulpit to get affirmation and "amen’s" is NOT how we minister to the "one" whom God is calling home. So finally I have only this suggestion. If you are not willing to tackle the issue one on one and counsel young men and women systematically and relationally and with great love and understanding, then I submit that you are taking the righteousness and holiness of God and abusing it for your own glory. Please do not do that. It is not helpful to you, nor to those who suffer from sins which ensnare so deeply as to create lifelong unseen grief and pain. Do not criticize those who have made this ministry their passion unless you are willing to help. Young Robby Schuller once said that the churches in America have enough preaching against the commission, and that like his grandfather, he will spend his life preaching against the sins of omission. Some of us Baptists could probably learn something from that.
...the horse has already been killed... Point taken.
KevinAlthough, I should clarify that I my problem is not with homosexuals. Were it not for the grace of God I'd be lost as a goose myself. My problem is with people in the church who say (a) homosexuality is not a sin to be repented of or (b) we have no business calling them to repentance because we're not perfect either. I also when I've met homosexuals do not say things like "Hi, my name is Joe. You know you're going to burn in hell, right?" The times I've gotten to share the gospel with them I don't know if I mentioned homosexuality specifically when I told them to be saved they must repent of their sins and trust in Jesus alone for their salvation.Just clarifying...word verification "predul" as in "You're preTTY dulL". Sometimes, I am.
EDIT to my paraprase of Robby Schuller's quote:"Young Robby Schuller once said that the churches in America have enough preaching against the sins of commission, and that like his grandfather, he will spend his life preaching against the sins of omission. Some of us Baptists could probably learn something from that."
There are a few verses in the Bible about homosexual sin. There are also a few verses that address abortion. There are hundreds that address heterosexual sin (any sex outside of marriage) and thousands that address greed and economic justice, including Matthew 25, where Jesus said you are not getting into heaven unless you take care of the poor, hungry, sick, etc.We have Baptist pastors who thunder from the pulpit about homosexual sin and abortion, and expect people to vote based on those two issues. Some of those same pastors almost never preach about heterosexual sin (members might leave!). Some also never preach about the sin of economic injustice.Some of those Baptist pastors have large salaries, live in expensive homes in high class neighborhoods, drive expensive cars, etc., and pass the homeless and hungry on the way to their plush offices at church without stopping.Our job as Christians is to take the gospel to the world that begins at our door and to meet not only the need for the gospel, but also the human needs of people. Our hypocrisy gets in the way of reaching the lost for Christ.Jesus spoke very often against the hypocrisy of the religious leaders of his day. What would he say about pastors driving Jaguars, Caddies, and SUVs past the poor and hungry?My choice was to vote for compassion over militarism and hate. We cannot lead the lost to Christ through hate.
Some also never preach about the sin of economic injustice. I'm not familiar with the bible verse(s) that addresses that. Could you be so kind as to quote it/them for me?
Please, Joe.Try Amos 4: 1-5, "Hear this word, you cows of Bashan on Mount Samaria, you women who oppress the poor and crush the needy and say to your husbands, 'Bring us some drinks!' The Sovereign Lord has sworn by his holiness: 'The time will surely come when you will be taken away with hooks, the last of you with fishhooks. You will each go straight out through breaks in the wall, and you will be cast out toward Harmon,' declares the Lord. 'Go to Bethel and sin; go to Gilgal and sin yet more. Bring your sacrifices every morning, your tithes every three years. Burn leavened bread as a thank offering and brag about your freewill offerings-- boast about them, you Israelites, for this is what you love to do,' declares the Sovereign Lord."Try Amos 5: 4-15, "This is what the Lord says to the house of Israel: 'Seek me and live; do not seek Bethel, do not go to Gilgal, do not journey to Beersheba. For Gilgal will surely go into exile, and Bethel will be reduced to nothing.' Seek the Lord and live, or he will sweep through the house of Joseph like a fire; it will devour, and Bethel will have no one to quench it. You who turn justice into bitterness and cast righteousness to the ground (he who made the Pleiades and Orion, who turns blackness into dawn and darkens day into night, who calls for the waters of the sea and pours them out over the face of the land-- the Lord is his name-- he flashes destruction on the stronghold and brings the fortified city to ruin), you hate the one who reproves in court and despise him who tells the truth. You trample on the poor and force him to give you grain. Therefore, though you have built stone mansions, you will not live in them; though you have planted lush vineyards, you will not drink their wine. For I know how many are your offenses and how great your sins. Therefore the prudent man keeps quiet in such times, for the times are evil. Seek good, not evil, that you may live. Then the Lord God Almighty will be with you, just as you say he is. Hate evil, love good; maintain justice in the courts. Perhaps the Lord God Almighty will have mercy on the remnant of Joseph."Try Micah 6:8, "He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God."Oh, you want something from the New testament? Try Matthew 25:31-46, "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." But don';t let this bother you too much. I well remember the first time I ever preached on Matthew 25. The congregation sat there, with their mouths open, astonished that the Bible actually said that. That church had been founded around 1772 (before the Revolutionary War!), and it was the first time, at least in living memory, that anyone had showed them those verses were there. They were used to a steady diet of, "Get saved, get saved, get saved!"Ignorance is not a sin, and that's good news. There was a deacon's meeting that very week, and on their own, with no prompting whatsoever, they brought it up and established a fund to buy prescription medicine for those who could not afford it and had nowhere else to turn.The bad news is that once ignorance is dispelled, the omission becomes a sin of omission. What will you do, Joe, now that you know the Bible does indeed address such issues?John
Thanks John. And Joe, there are at least a thousand more! Only a person reading with a pre-conceived notion of what the scripture says could miss them. They are all through the Old Testament and New Testament as well. Our friends at Sojourner's have a Bible where they took out all of the verses that have to do with economic justice (hunger, poverty, etc.). If you want to see what ignoring economic justice does to the Bible, you might contact them.
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