"I went to Jerusalem to become acquainted (Gk. istoria) with Cephas" - Paul's words from Galatians 1:18.

A Southern Baptist Pastor Encouraged by Two Roman Catholic Women

This past week God used two incredible Roman Catholic women to encourage me. I would like to identify both women and how it was that God used each of them in my life. If you have a problem with either believing a Southern Baptist can learn from a Roman Catholic, or if you struggle with a pastor learing from a woman, then I would suggest that you skip this post. As for me, these two women epitomize the thrill of believing the church of Jesus Christ extends far beyond the walls of the Southern Baptist Convention.

A Woman Named L's

The first woman who is one has commented often on this blog. I know her as L's or Christiane, her blog name. Last Friday a Nashville Southern Baptist named Robert, a man who often takes L's to task, asked L's a question about why she, a Roman Catholic, read and commented on Grace and Truth to You. Robert asked L's:

L's, an honest question to you. Why do you as a Roman Catholic remain around here? It just seems odd to me. Like me hanging around the Vatican.

L's answered Robert with the following comment, one of the finest this blog has received in nearly three and one half million hits and tens of thousands of comments:

Hi ROBERT,

It's me, L's.

There is a saying in the Hebrew tradition:

'God is in this place
and I did not know it.'


Have you ever heard that?

Long ago, my grandmother read the Bible to me and played the old hymns of her faith on her piano. So long ago, and I was so little, yet I remember, I remember . .


And one day, I turn on the TV and I see a Baptist Church protesting a soldier's funeral, screaming at the dead hero's family.

It was the Westboro Baptist Church.

I was horrified.

I knew that wasn't my Grandmother's faith. I knew it. But I was worried. So I called a cousin who is Protestant and she said that Grandmother had been a Southern Baptist. So I came looking to find out the truth.And here, I found that Westboro Baptist Church is NOT the same as my Grandmother's faith, thank God.

As for staying, as I said,

'God is in this place,
and I did not know it.'


I like your question. It makes me think.

I answer this: I care what becomes of my Grandmother's church. Some very bad things have happened and innocent people have been hurt. I hope that things will get better and people will stop harming others and that they will return to the Lord. So there is much to care about, much to pray for. Much to hope for. As Wade said in this post, "Nothing evil in God's world survives forever."

I am a Catholic and a woman of my Family. There is NO conflict in praying for the health of the Southern Baptist Church of my Grandmother, of blessed memory: that it should no longer be persecuted by those within it who seek to harm others. In truth, my faith calls me to care.

Christians must pray for one another, Robert, that's what we are called to do.

Love, L's


A Woman Named Anne Rice

One of my church members brought me a book this past week entiteld Called Out of Darkness: A Spiritual Confession. The book was written by Anne Rice. Anne is the famous author of The Vampire Chronicles, including the famous book which became a major hollywood motion picture, starring Brad Pitt and Tom Cruise, entitled Interview With the Vampire.

For years Anne Rice was an atheist. She made millions of dollars writing about vampires. But in 1998 Ann Rice came to faith in Jesus Christ. The account of her conversion, and her decision in 2002 to lay aside writing about vampires who take blood to the Creator who gave His blood is one of the most encouraging testimonies I have read in a long time. Anne's two newest bestsellers are entitled Christ the Lord: Out of Egypt and Christ the Lord: The Road to Cana.

Anne's vibrant, personal and biblically faithful portrayal of Jesus Christ is the result of her determination to write for God. I personally invited Anne to come to Emmanuel and share her testimony and spiritual journey, an invitation that she regretfully declined due to her recent health issues associated with severe diabetes. Yet, my reading of her autobiography, my personal conversations with her, and the incredible and powerful manner in which she communicated to me her vibrant faith in Jesus Christ encouraged me mightily this past week.

Anne and L's represent to me the truth that the kingdom of Jesus Christ includes people from all denominations. This Southern Baptist pastor unashamedly admits he has been taught this past week through the writings and life of two Roman Catholic women.

Isn't God good?

In His Grace,


Wade Burleson

132 comments:

Thy Peace said...

Amen to L's comment.

Amen to Anne Rice's new life in Our Lord Jesus Christ.

It gives me great hope that The Word of Our Lord Jesus Christ is able to cleanse us from within and create new beings from the old.

Glen Alan Woods said...

Encouraging post. Thank you for sharing it. :)

Bob Cleveland said...

Wade,

There may be some folks who come here and denigrate this, based on "identifying with", or "affirming" another faith. If there are, shame on them.

Good post. Good to read. Good to reflect on.

In fact, I had a pleasant conversation with a Jehovah's Witness this morning. We communicated well.

Lee Herring said...

Dear Sir,

As a Southern Baptist pastor serving in the very Catholic Santa Fe, I deeply appreciate your post. More often than not, since coming to NM, I have found my Catholic friends to be kind, gracious, and loving people.

May God forgive me for assuming otherwise.

Yours,
Lee

Hiram Smith said...

Dear, Dear Wade,

Why did you smear such an otherwise excellent post with the totally unnecessary trash talk in the third sentence of the first paragraph? Please delete it.

Thanks for an otherwise excellent post.
Hiram
Psa.23:1

Mark Burleson said...

Wade,
Nice post. I have friends in varying denominations whom I regard as close friends and confidants. I believe that while I may not agree with everything they do or have a different perspective, I do think that we can learn and be encouraged and work with each other. Which is one reason my church had started OnePrayer.com.

Not saying of course that all roads lead to God or anything, but those who hold true to the atonement of Jesus through his death, burial and resurrection are to me all in the same boat. I think it was Peter Meiderlin who said "In Essentials, Unity; in Non-essentials, Liberty; in All Things, Charity."

I've never personally been in a traditional SBC church (I really don't think Newspring or Fellowship church count too much there :D) , but I come back here because you have many things to say, both practical and spiritual (as well as I like following Burlesons =] ).

So continue to "be strong in the Lord, and in the power of His might" and continue on your path to bring glory and honor to the King of Kings and be encouraged that there are those of us who stand with you even though we aren't in the SBC camp.

=] sorry i know this was long.. hopefully its coherent being its late

Anonymous said...

CAUTION!!! anonymous comment

sigh...wade you assume your readers are angry people--either angry at you, angry with the sbc, or angry with the world in which they live. please stop hedging and just post.

To Mark: you said,"but those who hold true to the atonement of Jesus through his death, burial and resurrection are to me all in the same boat."

I just talked to a Mormon missionary 20 minutes ago--they would say they also hold true to those things. I guess you would say they are in the same boat even though they believe Elohim used to be a man in another universe and was so righteous in and of himself that he as allowed by the god of his former universe to become the god of our universe? Are we talking about the same Gospel? NO, even if they "hold true to the atonement of Jesus through his death, burial and resurrection".

The Gospel is more than a simple three sentence line; it's complex with it's inner-workings, and yet can be explained simpl IF explained properly.

Roman Catholics, if they believe in Mary to save them for even a part of their salvation and pray to her for help, do NOT, friends, believe in the same Gospel. They are not talking about the same Jesus and same God as what the Bible talks about if they think this kind of Jesus or God is going to save them.

A clock only a few minutes off doesn't look as suspicious as a clock seven hours off--Buddhism is easy to see through; Roman Catholics and Mormons are just close enough to seem like the truth, until you dig deeper.

John Daly said...

Infused righteousness, dispensary salvation, incremental or progressive justification--who am I?

Anonymous said...

I appreciated L's comment as well and agree that she seems like a kind, sweet, and loving person.

Like most everyone else, I have many friends who are Catholic. But because L's is kind and loving, does that mean we can not ask her about the requirements of salvation? As Baptists, we should be concerned about her answer as we would be with any Catholic.

And when she gives her answer, as many have asked her many times, does her loving kindness demand we overlook her unbiblical response which she has given many times?

I think we do the worst thing we can do to one of the most loving and kind people if we fail her in this way.

No need for me to go back and dig up all of her old replies to this most important question. Let's just ask her again, here and now.

L's - Do you believe that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone?

Nothing before, nothing after, and nothing in the middle.

If that question is too difficult for you to answer yes or no, (and for many Catholics, it is), then feel free to simply put into your own words what is required for a person to go to heaven.

Thanks L's. I also enjoy your attitude and your comments. Just not at the cost of your eternity.

Anonymous said...

Wade,

Thanks for a word of encouragement. We Baptist can learn a lot by talking to Catholic and other who we may not agree with all of the time. We may find out that the love of Jesus is in there heart too.

Anonymous said...

Here is a question that has troubled me as a life-long Baptist. This is coming from having known a number of Roman Catholic believers whom I found to be truly Christian. I ask this knowing it will probably raise a firestorm.
I understand that salvation is in Christ alone by faith alone, but how much does a person have to exclude or reject of what we Baptists would call “Catholic dogma” in order to be truly redeemed? How much of the veneration of Mary, prayer to the saints, or loyalty to the Pope will keep a person from the Kingdom of Christ?
What are the plainly worded and unambiguous scriptural supports for that assertion?
Anon Baptist

Jon said...

Anon,

I truly believe a person can be saved and then be taught (rather than discipled) the ways of Catholicism, through the traditions of their church. Fulfill all the religious requirements... and they are still saved.

I do wonder sometimes if we baptists think that being saved means being baptist. God forgive us if we begin to think this way.

Bob Cleveland said...

To denigrate people of other faiths is surely to denigrate non-believers as well.

Yeah, I'm sure that's what Jesus had in mind. Guess that explains at least part of the stunning success of the church WE have built.

John Daly said...

It's never about denigrating people it's about showing them the Light. If we love people then we can do no less. Rome may have some thread of continuity with orthodoxy on the person of Christ, but this will be to no credit should the message of Christ be misunderstood. Romanists see grace as a substance infused by God which transforms from within. Christians see grace just the opposite. It is His kindness toward us on account of Christ.

Jesse said...

You may find saved people who are part of the Roman Catholic (RC) church, just as you may find saved people in a Baptist church. However, the RC church teaches salvation, not through faith alone in Christ alone, but in the acceptance and adherence to their sacraments. It is a system of works which I believe falls under Paul's definition of "another gospel."

My opposition to RC doctrine is not meant to denigrate individuals in the RC church, it is meant to oppose the RC doctrine of salvation.

Jesse

Anonymous said...

Good post.

We can always learn from other people in other denominations. We can also learn from people of other faiths.

The balance is to learn from them, and have great relationships with them, but remain consistent with good biblical theology. That is certainly possible. In fact, it is how most Christians I know live their lives.

Baptist anon asks a good question which I will paraphrase as, "Just how wrong can one be about doctrinal matters (the nature of salvation, in this case), and still be saved?"

It's not a question that we can answer. That's not our job.

Our calling is to make disciples. We do that in many ways, including helping others gain a more biblical and proper understanding of the faith. And we should do that with humility.

Jesse, good comment.

Louis

Alan Cross said...

If our view of salvation and doctrine causes us to have any attitude but sacrificial love for other people, then our view of salvation and/or doctrine is not from God.

Alyce Faulkner said...

So very encouraging. I'm not a 'baptist identity' person, even though I attend an SBC church. I do recognized the walls of denominationalism falling.
Most recently in our area, we are recognizing the work and ministry of several Church of Christ churches. In fact, they are partnering with us to build the MOM house, give us clothes for the girls and pray for us.
One of the younger girls has been ask to come share tonight with the youth at C of C.
I thank God for allowing us to see and participate with the body of Christ, no matter what particular denomination they are.

Joe Blackmon said...

Ok, never much cared for Anne Rice and her oversexualied blood sucker novels. L's seems like a nice person albeit a little quirky. Not that quirky is bad, but I mean, come on, she uses a letter of the alphabet for a nickname. We haven't seen that since Star Trek Next Gen with Q. JUST KIDDING!!!!!!!!

In all seriousness, someone would have to have a screw loose to suggest that Roman Catholic theology has anything resembling something to do with biblical theology. There is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus not his mother Mary. Christ finished the work of paying for sin on the Cross. He does not come to be resacrificed everytime communion is served. Purgatory---can someone provide a bible passage that supports that doctrine? (Crickets chirping) Yeah, I didn't think so.

I'm not saying Catholics are evil, bad people. I am saying that to suggest that what Catholics calls Christianity and what the bible calls Christianity are two pretty different things.

James Hunt said...

ESV Galatians 1:6-9

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel - 7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

There may be many Roman Catholics who are trusting Jesus and His finished work alone for salvation; however, that being the case doesn't excuse the heretical gospel proclaimed by Rome. RCC is not simply another "denomination"; rather, it is a different religion because at the most important point the official dogma is fundamentally, biblically in error.

Anonymous said...

WHAT MUST I DO TO INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE ?

From the Gospel of St. Luke

Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

10:29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

10:30 And Jesus answering said:



We ask Jesus: 'AND WHO IS MY NEIGHBOR ? '

Anonymous said...

PLEASE ALL, FORGIVE ME FOR WHAT I AM ABOUT TO SAY.

Joe Blackman, you are an embarassment. I have began to think you must be someone's hired attack dog.

You speak as one who does not fear God Almighty.

oh, this is anonymous, I don't count.

Anonymous said...

From St. Matthew Chapter 25

"Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

35
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,

36
naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'

37
Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?

38
When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?

39
When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?'

40
And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41
17 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

42
For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,

43
a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.'

44
18 Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?'

45
He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.'

46
And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Anonymous said...

To Anon Bapt: you asked "What are the plainly worded and unambiguous scriptural supports for that assertion? "

I Tim 2:15 and The Book of Hebrews--there is but one mediator, friend. If you believe that there is another mediator OTHER than Christ, you are NOT believing in the true Gospel.

Roman Catholics believe in the CO-redemptorist--i.e. they believe Mary can also save us from our sins because she was sinless. Now, it's not up to me or anyone else who comments on this blog to give you unambiguous scriptural supports but rather YOU or any other person who believes in Mary's sinlessness and co-redemptorist status to show us where the Bible (not a papal encyclical and whatever they write)says she is sinless and can save us from our sins.

There are plenty of people in South America who are Roman Catholic and also practice their historical/culture religion or animism. Are we not giving them a pass because they know the truth about Christ but choose to go to Mass and also appease their local gods? Is that where we draw the line? What about those in the US who choose to pray to a Saint or statue of Mary for protection, light a candle or burn incense to them for prayers? Do they still 'get in'?

Before I had ever been to a Roman Catholic or an Eastern Orthodox Church, I went to several countries in Asia. While I was there, I saw many Daoist and Buddhist temples and couldn't believe all the god-shelves in people's homes and, wow, just all the temples. (much different than Texas) So, I observed what they did, and it's always stuck in my memory. A few years later, I went into a Roman Catholic church just to see what it was like. Talk about similarities! There are statues (idols) and people kneeling down, burning incense, offering food to the statue, and I thought "this is just like the Buddhist and Daoist temples I went into." Same with the Eastern Orthodox.

Friends, don't be decieved.
http://www.hissheep.org/catholic/the_cult_of_mary.html

Joe Blackmon said...

Anon

I get told that a lot. That's ok. Furthermore, if, as you assert, I am someone's "paid attack dog" (btw, that was a HOOT) then I am really hacked off because I am not getting my check. Grrr

Also, please note it's BlackmOn not BlackmAn.

I would welcome your insights as to how I'm wrong in the substance of what I said. Yo.

Anonymous said...

Joe:

Your check is in the mail.

Sorry for the delay.

Frankly, you are slipping on the attack dog duties. You need to work harder.

FBC Watchdog - Dog Pound Boss

Joe Blackmon said...

Dawg

I would appreciate you insights into how I was wrong in the substance of what I said. Thanks.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

FBC Jax's Jim Smyrl has gone as far as to label the RCC as a "cult", and referred to a Catholic priest as a "cult leader".

The "Catholic Cult" series by Smyrl can be accessed here.

Joe - that anon post "FBC Dog Pound Boss" is not mine.

Joe Blackmon said...

Dawg

I was wondering why you would post without your blogger profile. Thanks.

Alyce Faulkner said...

One simply can't assume a Catholic is an unbeliever, any more than we can assume a Baptist is a believer.
I've known many Catholics who know Christ intimately, including many many sisters. I've known Baptist who didn't, including myself as I sat for 23 years on a pew in my unbelief.
We need to get over ourselves also, assuming 'our doctrine' is superior.
We are filthy, most pitiful, at war with God and then, Jesus Christ redeemed us. Grace given us, grace to be extended-not judgement.

Joe Blackmon said...

Alyce

II Peter 1:4 says that God "granted to us His precious and magnificent promises", meaning the Bible. Since Roman Catholic doctrine is not based on scripture, Christian doctrine is most assuredly superior to it.

The way to win at this arguement is not to claim that we're no better than they are but rather to demonstrate from the Bible that what they believe is right.

Brother Pastor said...

It appears to me that the RCC and the SBC have much in common. They both have leaders who affirm what constitutes faith in God based on their confessions and statements of faith. They both have clergy members who sexually abuse members. They both reverence certain individuals who garner influence (one groups calls them saints while the other group calls them brother). They both have factions that advocate there is little or no place for women to be affirmed in ministry. I could go on.

My college roommate and best friend was/is an Irsih Roman Catholic. I am an African-American SB. While in college, I went with him to mass on Saturday nights while he attended my fathers African-American Baptist church with me on Sundays. Our traditions and perhaps practices are different. But I know without doubt that he lives the gospel notwithstanding what he's learned from the Pope or my Papa.

If he's headed to hell because he is Catholic, I'll probably be there with him, Mother Theresa, and L's. And I'll preach the same to my African-American and Methodist seeker congregation this Sunday morning.

Wade you are right on point and I hope to meet you one day soon.

Brother Pastor

John Daly said...

Just because someone says a "buzz word," it doesn't necessarily mean they believe as you might.

For example, it is the common Roman Catholic position that good works done in faith, as prompted by the grace of God, are the ground of our justification. But the Reformers knew full well that the only ground of justification was the righteousness of Christ imputed to the poor sinner.

Imputed, not infused...I plead for folks to not get this wrong.

Joe Blackmon said...

John

See, that's the problem. One of the two cannot be right. Either Christ's righteousness is enough to justify us OR we have to take sacriments to justify us. Both positions can't be right. Those who want to argue that Catholic doctrine is biblical doctrine might want to try to support their statements with scripture.

Alyce Faulkner said...

Joe, which 'christian doctrine' are you referring to? Baptist, Methodist, AG? It seems we religious people tend to talk and focus on what separates us, rather than what binds us together.

I'm talking about people, individuals who live under some type of 'religious' tent and yet, 'God has sent to us the Helper, the Holy Spirit, who promises to teach us.'

We can't get a consensus here on just about anything. Most of what I observe here are opinions-not doctrine.

There is one church, one faith. I'm just trying to make certain I am not attempting be the 'gate keeper' of the kingdom.

Blankets proclamations of who is in and who is out are judgements no mere man can make.

Joe Blackmon said...

Alyce

Is Mary "Co-redemptrix" or not? Catholics say she is. Does the Bible support that? If so, please site a text.

Do souls not bad enough for Hell but not yet good enough for Heaven go to some place called Purgatory? Catholics say they do. Is there Biblical support for that doctrine?

Are we positionally justified before God based on the righteousness of Christ on account of His death, burial, and resurrection or do we have to receive sacriments from the Catholic church to be justified?

One position is right. The other is wrong. They are mutually exclusive.

Anonymous said...

Which ONE would offend God more:

a) our doctrinal statement ?

OR

b) that the wounded in our path
suffer from kindness unknown?

Alyce Faulkner said...

Let me try this once again, you are talking doctrinal theology. I'm talking people-souls if you will.
You have no way of knowing the 'theology or doctrine' of their heart.
Again, I'm not talking doctrine or attempting to write a doctrinal thesis.
Simply put-you don't know L's theology, Anne's theology/doctrine, for that matter you don't know mine and I'm in an SBC church working for an SBC agency.
This will be the last exchange I have with you Joe.
I fear you still have not heard what I'm trying to say to you.

Allie said...

Interesting how an article about learning from people turns into a theological debate on whether or not Catholics are truly saved. I have my opinions and will keep them to myself at the moment.

I enjoyed this article. It amazes me when and where and from whom God uses to teach me things - whether its how to be more caring, or whether it challenges me theologically, or simply brings me closer to Him. One of the most outstanding examples in my own life was on the last day of working at a job that I felt incredibly guilty for leaving. As I turned on the car, my radio blared out the words "Closing time - every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end" Now don't go googling the words to that song because the song itself is not a good song, but those were the words I needed to hear at that time. No one on this earth can convince me that God didn't have a hand in making sure that song was playing at the exact moment I would be turning on my car, and yet it is so far from being theologically correct as one can get.

gram said...

"I do wonder sometimes if we baptists think that being saved means being baptist."

i was raised disciples of christ; married into the methodist church, spent some time in the presbyterian church when our children were teens because that was the church where i worked and where their friends were and they both ended up interning in and joining a baptist church during college - which is where we've ended up. i have never heard as much questioning of the salvation of people in all those other denominations as i have in the baptist church. even heard methodism called "christian light".....my children are devout christians who, when asked on any form, i.e. hospital, etc. "what is your religious preference" they both write "following Jesus".

Anonymous said...

"Just how wrong can one be about doctrinal matters (the nature of salvation, in this case), and still be saved?"

This is a great question. But it also begs the question because Satan knows correct doctrine, too.

Anonymous said...

"There is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus not his mother Mary. Christ finished the work of paying for sin on the Cross. He does not come to be resacrificed everytime communion is served. "

Joe, I find this interesting because you believe there is a "mediator" between a woman and Jesus Christ. It is really not that different.

Lydia

Mark Burleson said...

Anon whichever one you are.. makes it hard to reply..lol

Naturally by my comments I was talking about the finished work of Christ at the cross which we call the Gospel. That Christ was crucified and made a propitiation for us, becoming sin though he knew no sin, etc etc. nit picking is a bit excessive sometimes if you ask me.. Nothing I said would bring thought to inclusionary theology

Anonymous said...

"See, that's the problem. One of the two cannot be right. Either Christ's righteousness is enough to justify us OR we have to take sacriments to justify us. Both positions can't be right."

Joe, Your doctrine teaches that women are saved or sanctified by childbearing. A works doctrine. this is taught by comps as women staying in their God ordained "role". It is works no matter how you swing it.

Lydia

John Daly said...

Alyce, hear my heart on this one,

I don't know L's theology, nor yours...I'm not even sure about Wade's half the time :) That being said, I know what Rome teaches and that is what I will attack, until my days are at an end.

Superficial commonalities is all that we have with this false religion. We are reminded from Scripture that even the demons are seemingly orthodox in their appraisal of Monotheism, Trinitariansim, Christology and the reality of the incarnation.

I've never posted this much on one thread in my life and it is because I know our Lord will call those whom He hath chosen.

Oh my, did I just open up a can?

Joe Blackmon said...

Sorry, Lydia, but I do not and have not taught that salvation for women comes from having children. Salvation for all men and women comes by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Thank you and have a nice day.

Anna A said...

It seems like there are some misunderstandings about Catholic beliefs here.

As far as sacraments, they are ways that God reaches down to us, to help us, to bring us closer to Him. They are not magic deeds, any more than going forward at an altar call is. We also believe that while God works through the sacraments, He is not bound to working through them.

Co-redemptrix. As far as Mary is concerned, I hope that the idea stays dead. But, the Catholic understanding of co-redeemers is that who ever helps another to become saved is their co-redeemer. So, in Catholic thinking, our host Wade is a co-redeemer to many people.

We have to disagree about imputed vs infused righteousness. I will admit that I never understood the difference until I read Dr. Beckworth's book.

Full Disclosure. I was raised Southern Baptist and was active until the day I started the formal process to become Catholic about 10 years ago.

Anonymous said...

CATHOLIC VISION ?

What is it about this very ancient Catholic hymn (written 1200 years ago by Irish monks) that is biblical?

What is it about this very ancient Catholic hymn that is NOT biblical?

Be Thou my Vision, O Lord of my heart
Naught be all else to me save that Thou art
Thou my best thought by day or by night
Waking or sleeping Thy presence my light.


Be Thou my wisdom, Thou my true Word
I ever with thee, Thou with me, Lord
Thou my great Father, I thy true Son
Thou in me dwelling, and I with Thee one.

Be Thou my battleshield, sword for the fight
Be Thou my dignity, Thou my delight
Thou my soul's Shelter, Thou my high Tower
Raise Thou me heavenward, O Power of my power.

Riches I heed not, nor man's empty praise
Thou mine inheritance, now and always
Thou and Thou only, First in my heart
High King of heavem, my Treasure Thou art.

High King of heaven, after victory won
May I reach heaven's joys, O bright heaven's Sun
Heart of my own heart, whatever befall
Still be my Vision, O Ruler of all.

(written 800 A.D.)

Anonymous said...

"Sorry, Lydia, but I do not and have not taught that salvation for women comes from having children. Salvation for all men and women comes by grace through faith in Jesus Christ."

Really? How do you interpret 1 Tim 2 verse about childbearing? Isn't that the banner chapter for women not teaching men?

Wade Burleson said...

John Daly,

Knowing your theology regarding God being able to overcome all obstacles to save His people (an opinion which I share), but reading some of your comments and seeing how hard you press against those don't see things the way you do . . .

I sometimes wonder if you think your God.

:) Just joshing you.

I would think your understanding of grace would cause you to relax just a tad.

Anonymous said...

God giveth grace to the humble.

John Daly said...

"We have to disagree about imputed vs infused righteousness."

Anna,

Thank you for your honesty because I too feel that we'll just have to disagree at this point. Isn't it strange that these two words keep us on such different paths?

Anonymous said...

Where is L's!? She could settle all this for us. :)

L's - Do you believe that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone?

Nothing before, nothing after, and nothing in the middle.

If that question is too difficult for you to answer yes or no, (and for many Catholics, it is), then feel free to simply put into your own words what is required for a person to go to heaven.

Wade - Are you rigging the word verifications?

Mine is prayer.

No joke.

If my next word verification is indulgence, I'm in trouble!

DebB said...

Thanks for working with the Lord to help open the hearts of your readers to include believers of different denominations. You must be doing the right thing, otherwise you wouldn't be catching so much angry flack.

Joe Blackmon said...

I'll say it again for you, Anon. Women are not saved by having children. The only way any man or woman is saved is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Thanks.

Thy Peace said...

Today, I listened to #19. The Power of One's Words to Regenerate Souls (I Peter 1:22-25 from the Series on The Long Reach of Your Speech of Pastor Wade's sermons.

Very apt for this post. Below text is from the sermon notes.
-----------------------------------
I Peter 1:22-25 (ESV)
Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, since you have been brn again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God: for "All flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls, but the word of the Lord remains forever." And this word is the good news that was preached to you.

The phrase "born again" (v.23) translates the Greek word "regeneration," which means "to be gened again." We were born the first time of physical genes; we are born the second time of spiritual genes. This is exactly what Jesus meant in John 3:7, "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." There is something really exciting when a sinner is made alive by God.

A person is made alive through others speaking the good news of Jesus Christ.
Since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God. And this word is the good news that was preached to you (v.23, 25). To preach is to broadcast. It's to reveal what Christ has done. It is to talk of Him and His work. My license plate has the word kerusso, which means in the Greek "I preach." The root word "keru" is believed to come from the sound a rooster makes when he announces, or proclaims, the rising of of the sun. So the word "preacher" means "one who proclaims or heralds news." Preaching is nothing but announcing.

To preach is not to moralize . . . "do this, don't do this, etc."
To preach is not even to motivate . . . "do this better, etc."
To preach is to memorize and personalize the good news of Jesus Christ.

When you tell people the news of what Christ has done, a miracle takes place. The word acts as the seed of regeneration. The Spirit of God implants the seed into the soul, and life happens! One's response to God, one's faith in Christ, one's dependence upon Him, is a result of life. God is powerful enough to take the proclaimed word, the good news, and change hard hearts.

A person manifests the presence of spiritual life through sincere brotherly love.
Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, since you have been born again" (v.22, 23).

The strongest evidence of your conversion is your love for other Christians.
"By this will all know that you are my disciples, if you love one another" (John 13:35).
"People often profess their love, even to those whom they not only treat with neglect, but in reality renounce and despise" John Calvin.
To love is to always do what is best for others, not what is easiest for you.
The greatest example of this is found in Jesus Christ, who sweat drops of blood. In I Corinthians 13, genuine agape love is contrasted with the pagan love of the Temple of Diana. The sensual, self-gratifying love of the Diana worshipers, who when they heard "the gong" and the "tinkling cymbals" around the ankles of the prostitutes, came to worship for gratification, is contrasted with God's love. If I have not (God's) love, I am like a resounding gong or a tinkling cymbal (I Corinthians 13:1).

A person matters to you equally to your willingness to speak the good news.
A willing witness, a sovereign Spirit, and a sinful soul leads to a divine encounter. It's the miracle of new birth, and it won't happen without you speaking and praying.Missions is not the ultimate goal of the church. Worship is. Missions exist because worship doesn't -- John Piper. When a person really knows the fullness of Christ, when the gospel transforms the believer's soul, then the good news just bubbles out. I believe God gifts people to be evangelists to the lost in other nations, but ever believer is a witness of God's life-changing power to the people we know and love.
-----------------------------------

Karen in OK said...

A quote from Al Mohler: "Evangelicals, Catholics, and the Orthodox do not share a common understanding of HOW the work of Christ accomplishes our salvation--and this is the heart of the Gospel."
from an article, "Standing Together, Standing Apart", in Touchstone magazine in 2003.

http://touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=16-06-070-f

Lengthy and complicated article but very well-worth reading.

Joe Blackmon said...

Karen

What you said.

Thy Peace said...

NYT: FIRST CHAPTER ‘Called Out of Darkness’ By ANNE RICE

1
This book is about faith in God.

For more than twenty centuries, Christianity has given us dazzling works of theology, yet it remains a religion in which the heart is absolutely essential to faith.

The appeal of Jesus Christ was first and foremost to the heart.

The man knocked on his back on the Road to Damascus experienced a transformation of the heart. St. Francis of Assisi, giving away all of his clothes as he turned to follow Christ, was reflecting a decision of the heart. Mother Teresa founded her world-famous order of nuns because of a decision of the heart.

The immensity of these figures finds an imperfect student in me, but not an inattentive one.

I want to tell, as simply as I can-and nothing with me as a writer has ever really been simple-the story of how I made my decision of the heart.

So here is the story of one path to God.

The story has a happy ending because I have found the Transcendent God both intellectually and emotionally. And complete belief in Him and devotion to Him, no matter how interwoven with occasional fear and constant personal failure and imperfection, has become the true story of my life.

If this path to God is an illusion, then the story is worthless. If the path is real, then we have something here that may matter to you as well as to me.

Steve said...

The Catholics that I know speak of Mary as simply a person in Heaven who helps them pray to God in the name of Jesus Christ.

Sorry I can't help you out with the anger part.

Hey, that "Romanist" thing was really cute. Such an inspiring example to the rest of the world!

Anonymous said...

I'll say it again for you, Anon. Women are not saved by having children. The only way any man or woman is saved is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Thanks.

Wed Mar 11, 10:08:00 PM 2009


Joe, What you and Karen in OK and Al Mohler, Bruce Ware, Grudem and many others do not see is that you also believe in a mediator for women on this earth.

As Brother Pastor proved above with his comment, we have become more Catholic in our practices than we realize. We have no right to point fingers. We have our own 'popes', we have ignored sexual predators in some instances our celebrity pastors keeping them around without a hint of protest from their peers. Nay, they are invited to speak all over the SBC!

debbiekaufman said...

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Having correct doctrine is works folks. The Holy Spirit moves among Roman Catholics too. Just because they are not currently sitting in the pew in your church, doesn't mean they are not born again.

oc said...

I believe the only way to salvation is through faith in Jesus alone. He died in my stead. He reconciled me to God. He rose again, and lives still, and that proved who He is. He's coming back. The Alpha and Omega, He is God. To me, that is clear in the Bible. He saved me. And then He gave me clear directions about how I should live because of it. Those instructions are direct, yet the living out of them have proven to be hard for me. Because He deals more with being, moreso than doing. If we don't have the "being", Christ is us, then the "doing" is impossible. And I am to die to myself daily. But more often, I fail daily, sometimes hourly, sometimes even more...
So sometimes my walk becomes a crawl, even though I know I'm saved. That being said...

My question is:
If L's is not saved then all of us who call ourselves saved should be very ashamed. Because she resembles what's portrayed in the Beatitudes much more closely than any of us have shown on this blog. And since we do claim to have the correct doctrine, even to the point of knowing all about "grace through faith, and that not of ourselves", then what does this say about us?

We know all about it but don't live it out?

Or she doesn't know it but still somehow lives it out?

Which one of us pleases the Lord?

We can talk about how wrong any denomination may be. But in all our doctrine wrangling, I know I wasn't the intercessor when God dealt with your soul. We aren't privileged to be the witnesses between God and any human soul. So maybe we shouldn't jump to conclusions about what God does in the human heart, no matter the denomination.

I'm just thinking that I feel confident in my doctrine, but should not be too cocky about what transpires between God and another individual. And when their walk is more faithful to the Scriptures than mine, then I start thinking that maybe "relationship" trumps doctrine somehow.

Just thinking out loud.
oc.

Alan Paul said...

Joe, I find this interesting because you believe there is a "mediator" between a woman and Jesus Christ. It is really not that different.

I rarely laugh out loud with joy while at this site - too many arguments, but I have to tell you I had to laugh at this - and laughed even louder at Joe's disingenuous response! Made my day!

oc said...

Debbie,
Funny. I didn't see your post before my referencing the Ephesians passage. I don't think that was any accident.

oc.

Alan Paul said...

Let me clarify for you Joe the difference between your communication style (as seen here and other Burleson posts) and Alyce's: She would get my attention as a non-believer (and I am thinking about my general demeanor towards religious folk who thought they had it all figured out when I was an unbeliever).

You? I would not have given you the time of day.

Alyce would have gotten to plant some seeds. You would not have.

Think about that.

Anonymous said...

did you spend more time reading this post today than in the Word of God?

Christiane said...

Hi Everyone,

it's me, L's

Found these quotes:

"..."No eyes have seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind had conceived what God had prepared for those who love him-

but God had revealed it to us by his Spirit. The spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
1 Corinthians 2:9-11

We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given to us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 1 Corinthians 2:12-14 "


"THE DEEP THINGS OF GOD . . . "
so many times, I have wondered how we could know or understand certain things, unless it was given to us by the Holy Spirit.

For the dear 'anon' who worries for my salvation, this:

some seek a salvation that keeps them safe, and, so like a child would come to its Father, they come to Him . . and thank God for that.

I have never felt that God was NOT my Father, since I first believed.

So I am peaceful, and trusting in my gentle 'Abba', and not fearful.

The 'salvation' I seek is this: may the Lord Christ CHANGE ME so that that I am no longer a source of pain for others.

The salvation I seek is the freedom from being unkind to others, or blind to them.

And so, being human, and full of weakness, my need is for Lord Christ's saving grace (present tense) to be poured out into my brokeness.
This is different from the 'I am saved' (past tense),
so I must pray without ceasing:

"Lord, Jesus Christ, Son, Savior, have mercy on me, a sinner."

If I can be saved from being unkind, then I should very glad indeed. Is this 'Catholic' ?
Probably is. No magic words, just
"JESUS CHIRST, have mercy on me, a sinner." or sometimes, simply, "JESUS".
All I know is that this prayer, brings a peacefulness. And I thank God for this.

In the post, was the example of my worrying that the Baptist faith was the same as that of the Westboro Baptist Church.
I went searching to find out the truth about the Southern Baptist Faith. If I had NOT done this, I might have thought the worst, without knowing all the wonderful people I have met here.
I glad I didn't ASSUME.
If we always assume that the 'others' are 'a certain way', we lose so much of the goodness that they can bring into our lives. Best to come and get to know them. :)
So, I am the better for it.

As for the defense of my Catholic religion, I have never wanted to bring 'doctrine' into debate on Wade's blog.
If anyone who is a Baptist, wants to understand the doctrines of my faith: go and speak with a priest or a nun at a Catholic church and ask.
They will listen. And they will try to answer your questions gently and respectfully, without causing damage to your own beliefs. That's important.

If I was a Baptist and wanted to know about Catholics, I would go and spend a week or so, at a Benedictine Monastery as a guest.
You sort of 'hang out' there and pray. They will read the Bible aloud during meals. You may come and listen while the monks pray or sing, or you can pray in peace on the grounds where it is quiet. They work as well as pray.
It is a very peaceful 'retreat' from the noise of the world.
In the gospel of St. Mark, we are told that it is good to come away and rest for a while.
Who knows, you might find out this: that "God was in this place; and I did not know it." Love, L's


P.S. Wade, thank you for the lovely comment about my response to Robert.

I am intrigued about Anne Rice's new book 'Called Out of Darkness' and will use my Barnes and Nobles gift cards to purchase a copy. Sounds like great Lenten reading.

Thanks again, (sorry for being so much trouble),
Love, L's

oc said...

L's,
Trouble? You have no idea what a blessing you have been.

oc.

Chris Ryan said...

Joe,

Nobody ever got back to you on Purgatory and that isn't surprising. You ask for someone to provide you a biblical support for that. That would be both possible and impossible. That is because the support is found in II Maccabeas. It is a book that the RCC (and the patristic fathers) considers authoritative but which Luther and the other Reformers rejected. So what is biblical depends largely on what is Bible.

Not saying that I would include the Apocrypha with canon or that I believe in purgatory, but take people on their own terms. Don't expect them to always meet yours.

Anonymous said...

L's - Once again, we all do appreciate your loving kindness. And we can all aspire to be like you and admire you deeply as some are suggesting.

But this has nothing to do with how one gets to heaven.

Your non-answer is what is troubling.

Frankly, it is a very catholic answer and it's what I expected.

Joe is getting all the attention here and that is a shame.

Karen in Ok said...

Interesting that someone lumped me in a group that supposedly believes that women have mediators between Christ and them. I don't believe that at all.

Because I referenced an excellent article by Al Mohler that I doubt the person read. Kind of funny.

Oh, the assumptions we make about other people by just a few words.
Two of the last times I participated in Communion, it was in a PCUSA church, from the hands of a female.
Not what some of you would guess, I imagine.

I will go ahead and state the obvious that there will be lots of Catholics in Heaven and lots of Baptists in Hell. Yet that does not mean that doctrine is not important or that it is a "work".

You don't get to Heaven by being a more peaceful, gentle person than some other people. I have no way of knowing whether anyone on this comment stream is truly a Christian or not. But anyone who is saved is saved by Christ Alone, through grace and faith alone.

Some in these comments seem to deny that there are any really significant differences between Catholic and Baptist doctrine. Amazing what our ancestors in the faith died for during the Reformation that we deny now is an issue.

WTJeff said...

It blows my mind how people have ignored the point of this post. At no point has Wade even hinted at justifying Roman Catholic theology, but rather has simply stated God can teach us through those outside our baptist box. (In this case, women) This is exactly how people miss out on learning from Mark Driscoll, Matt Chandler, and Darrin Patrick. They have either done something or said something in the past with which we don't agree, so therefore we can't learn from them.

This may not be a problem limited to SBs, but it is definitely a problem we should work against. We suffer the consequences when we don't learn and acknowledge what God is doing through these men.........and women.

Karen in Ok said...

WTJeff,
Perhaps indeed people have misunderstood the point of the post.
But my comments have been directed primarily towards other peoples' comments. And there does seem to be a recurring theme in those comments that doctrine isn't all that important.

Joe Blackmon said...

Alan

I am so hurt that you wouldn't listen to me. My wittle heart is bweaking. Weaey it is. Oh, and just as an FYI, if you thought my response that I have never taught that women are saved by anything other than grace through faith in Jesus Christ was disingenuous that, sir, would be a "You Problem". I have never said or taught anything else. Thank you. Have a nice day.

Chris

I don't expect them to meet mine. I expect them to meet the Bible's. Since Christians recognize that there is nothing in the Apocrypha that is Scripture anyone who uses that document to support their doctrine is peddling false doctrine.

Joe Blackmon said...

Karen

Great comments.

Wade Burleson said...

WT Jeff,

Thank you for saying exactly what I was thinking.

Blessings,

Wade

Wade Burleson said...

L's,

When you read Anne Rice's "Called Out of Darkness" I would like your thoughts.

In fact, if you would feel so led, I would like to offer you a guest post for a review of her new book.

Blessings to you,

Wade

greg.w.h said...

Karen in OK wrote:

Some in these comments seem to deny that there are any really significant differences between Catholic and Baptist doctrine. Amazing what our ancestors in the faith died for during the Reformation that we deny now is an issue.

I think the comments have more emphasized the historical commonality in biblical doctrine that both Catholics and Baptists share rather emphasizing the differences. I think a discussion of differences is generally HEALTHY. And Wade certainly encouraged the discussion to a certain extent with the sentence that Hiram complained about.

The question is not really whether either Southern Baptist or Roman Catholic doctrine is perfect or superior. Those who engage in that discussion are insecure and narcissistic because there is no standard by which that comparison can be made, or at least none that is so unambiguous as to leave no question unanswered.

The question instead is whether the doctrine of the two faith traditions is adequate from a biblical perspective. The complaints against the RCC mentioned here are certainly interesting and informative, but I've lived around Roman Catholics all of my life and I can attest to their faith not just in the church but in Christ Jesus and their exemplary acts of love and compassion towards others.

I, regrettably, have never seen a Southern Baptist Church--and I've been in probably 20 or 30 as I've moved around over the years--that takes works of compassion as seriously as the typical Catholic parish or Catholic charity does. I can tell you story after story after story where Catholics felt compelled to take care of their own who were needy and hurting. Baptist churches tend to do that only for a moment then they kind of lose their focus and retreat to the "more important" (and easier) work of evangelism and missions.

And Baptists never give Catholic missionaries credit for their efforts to extend the kingdom around the world. We do that by intentionally overlooking the portions of their faith that probably are adequate in God's sight and focusing on things that do merit attention, but do not tell the whole story.

And when we're called on it, we fall back on how the other people aren't focusing hard enough on disqualifying other faith traditions and separating from them. I honestly thought Wade did a very good job of that in describing the differences he has with groups such as Mormons (aka Latter Day Saints), Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.

We have too much in common with the Roman Catholic Church to treat it as a cult. And if there were to be one group other than Southern Baptists that we ought to pray for and encourage daily--given the RCC's massive international presence--it would be the Catholic Church.

In addition to that, we need to recognize the efficacy of the cardinals and bishops in Africa in impacting both the Anglican Communion and the Roman Catholic Church. Those very conservative Africans have worked effectively to broaden the theological focus of both groups and deserve our full support and prayer.

We Southern Baptists need to quit focusing on what the end of our noses look like and instead work harder at reflecting the eikon of Christ Jesus when we reference other, Christian faith traditions. It is not enough to abstractly acknowledge that some of them will be in heaven or that some of us might not be. We have an obligation to unify with them especially where we have much in common. I think it's okay to differ with them where our knowledge (or theirs) of Christ Jesus is incomplete, but even in that we should pray for unity reflecting Christ's heart as expressed in the high priestly prayer in John 17.

Greg Harvey

Anonymous said...

I can't believe the consensus here is to ignore the requirements of salvation and for all of us to focus on all the good things catholics and all of us do.

And of course we can all learn from each other. But what does that have to do with what is required for salvation?

It matters not one iota how much good anyone does or how long they were a missionary or how many hungry people they fed if they aren't trusting in Christ alone for their salvation.

These are things Christians should do out of a love given to them by Christ and out of a gratefulness for saving them. It is my view and the historical view that Catholics do these things to gain their salvation.

This is so elementary.

The more I study church history, I don't see how we have so much in common. I realize how much we disagree, in history and currently.

Bob Cleveland said...

Greg,

You hit a good point. It seems as if, whenever Baptists see a group that emphasizes actually DOING SOMETHING about their faith, or requires accountability in showing forth the sort of works mentioned in James, the Baptists immediately attack their theology, saying it's "works-based" salvation.

The average baptist seems a whole lot less accountable for his actions than is the average Rotary Club Member.

Joe Blackmon said...

Anon

You're right. This is elementary. Some people just can't STAND to say "Anything that doesn't agree with the Bible is false. Catholic doctrine does not agree with the Bible. Catholic Doctrine is false". If that hurts people's wittle bitty feewings then I'm sorry. However, I care about people too much to NOT tell the truth.

ezekiel said...

Joe Blackmon,

Before we get to calling anyone else out on their doctrine we might want to look at ours.

And the truth is that if the works that he ordained that you walk in don't evidence your faith then you don't really have saving faith. See 1 John, James and the rest of the Gospel.

Then you are really making the same mistake Israel did and died for their unbelief. Hebrews 4:6,11

Let's not forget that they had the Gospel yet lacked belief. Some around here seem committed to the same error.

Karen in OK said...

greg.w.h said: The question is not really whether either Southern Baptist or Roman Catholic doctrine is perfect or superior. Those who engage in that discussion are insecure and narcissistic because there is no standard by which that comparison can be made, or at least none that is so unambiguous as to leave no question unanswered.

The question instead is whether the doctrine of the two faith traditions is adequate from a biblical perspective.
............

Still learning how to quote- I hope this turns out.

greg, you are free to consider me narcissistic, etc. because I am willing to engage in that discussion. I would assert that there definitely is a standard to make the comparison of doctrine - the Bible. Yes, my understanding of it is flawed. No, no one has a perfect understanding. But to say that there is no standard, I don't get.
I would submit that the Roman Catholic doctrine of infused righteousness is quite deficient from a Biblical perspective. That justification by faith really means something.

I suspect you and I could trade anecdotes all day long. I worked in a Southern Baptist mission for three years that principally had nominal Catholics in attendance.

I have several very good friends who are ex-Catholics. They joined evangelical churches of various types when they went to college as 18-year-olds, hearing the Gospel, they believe, for the first time.

I personally have spent a lot of time in liturgical churches, including several times, St. Peter's Basilica in Rome. I recommend the Vatican Museums to you.
I love the great ecumenical creeds and have used them many times in our family worship times.
You are right that there is much we can learn from non-SBC faith groups.

But your experiences, my experiences, how nice the two ladies in this post are, doesn't matter. What does matter is trusting in Christ Alone for our salvation. IF someone hasn't done that, we do them no favor by saying that nothing is clearcut anyway.

Joe Blackmon said...

"What does matter is trusting in Christ Alone for our salvation. IF someone hasn't done that, we do them no favor by saying that nothing is clearcut anyway."

Karen,

Truer words were never spoken. Some people can claim "Well, nobody has a perfect understanding" all they want but the fact of the matter is there is quite obviously far less in common between Catholic doctrine and biblical doctrine than there is similar. It's not a difference of apples and oranges but more like apples (Biblcial doctrine) and arsenic (Catholic false doctrine). Focusing on warm fuzzies and nice feelings may help us all "get along" but it does nothing for spreading the gospel of Christ.

Karen in OK said...

Bob,
I just can't agree with your point.
I know too many Southern Baptists around here who are members of disaster relief teams, sometimes gone for weeks at a time, and who do MANY other useful things.

I would have presumed that many of us are NOT concerned about official Catholic theology because we think, oh no, it will show our hypocrisy.
But because we long for the salvation of our Catholic co-workers, relatives, friends, and neighbors who have indicated to us in numerous conversations and interactions that they are not
trusting in the finished work of Christ for their salvation.

Yes, there are Catholics and many of them, I believe, who have trusted in Christ fully. As the cliche goes, in spite of official Catholic teaching, not because of.

Chris Ryan said...

Anon 1:42,
If you have truly studied church history, with an eye towards theological history, you see the roots of both Catholicism and Reformation in the patristic fathers. In fact, great movements of faith have almost always been inspired by a rereading of the classical writings of early Christians. If you truly study church history you don't see so much a stark diversity as a recurring unity among cultural diversities. Many of the disagreements we have come from the worldviews (especially the epistemology) of those who were influential in the rise of any certain denomination.

Joe B,
You are telling the Catholic that what is Biblical is based on your belief of what constitutes canon. As far as they are concerned, the apocrypha does constitute Bible and is thus open to be discussed as authoritative. Your argument is ciruclar: "I believe that this is Bible, therefore only teaching derived from this is biblical. This teaching is derived from another source, therefore it is unbiblical. Why? Because I believe that only these sources are biblical..." The question here isn't what is biblical, but what is the Bible. You have to deal with canon first, not theology.

You then say that (true) Christians understand that there is nothing in the apocrypha that is Scripture and therefore no (true) Christian would look at the apocrypha for scriptural purposes.

If that is the case, then I hope that your canon doesn't include Jude (which references an apocryphal tradition on what happened to Moses' body) or Hebrews (which refences the Martyrdom of Isaiah; and chpt 1 seems to personify wisdom, with Christ as supreme wisdom, much the way that Ben Sirach does).

You also cannot understand the Pharisees or the Sadducees without the insights offered by apocryphal works. Furthermore, many NT concepts are foreign (literally) to the OT but develop during the inter-testamental period. Heaven and Hell emerge where before there was just Sheol. The belief in a bodily resurrection was something that the Pharisees began teaching during the Maccabean period. The hope in a particular, salvific messiah as opposed to the more general "annointed one" is rather important to the NT but foreign to the OT. Tobit greatly develops the roles of angels as opposed to their general purpose of message delivery in the OT.

Again, I am not saying that the apocrypha is canon. But nor can it be dismissed. It is of incredible value for understanding Judaism at the time of Jesus.

Have you actually read it?

Joe Blackmon said...

"You are telling the Catholic that what is Biblical is based on your belief of what constitutes canon. As far as they are concerned, the apocrypha does constitute Bible and is thus open to be discussed as authoritative."

I'm sorry, but their opinion doesn't count nor does it require me to accept something as inspired scripture because they accept it as inspiried. It's their job to get right, not mine to compromise the truth. To suggest because Jude quotes from an apocryphal source proves that the apocrypha is inspired is laughable. Further, there is nothing in anything that I've said that indicates there is no value in the apocrypha on that Christians recognize that it is not inspired whereas Catholics wrongly believe it is inspired and base false doctrine on it.

No, I haven't read it. However, whether or not I've read it does not change the fact that Christians, not just me, have recognized for a long time that it is not inspired by God.

Joe Blackmon said...

Typo alert:

In my above comment, I left out the letter "LY" in a sentance.

Further, there is nothing in anything that I've said that indicates there is no value in the apocrypha onLY that Christians recognize that it is not inspired whereas Catholics wrongly believe it is inspired and base false doctrine on it.

Anonymous said...

Did Jesus refer to the Apocrypha ?

Wisdom 2:12-20

12 Let us beset the just one, because he is obnoxious to us; he sets himself against our doings, Reproaches us for transgressions of the law and charges us with violations of our training. 13He professes to have knowledge of God and styles himself a child of the LORD. 14To us he is the censure of our thoughts; merely to see him is a hardship for us, 15Because his life is not like other men's, and different are his ways. 16He judges us debased; he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure. He calls blest the destiny of the just and boasts that God is his Father. 17Let us see whether his words be true; let us find out what will happen to him. 18For if the just one be the son of God, he will defend him and deliver him from the hand of his foes. 19With revilement and torture let us put him to the test that we may have proof of his gentleness and try his patience. 20Let us condemn him to a shameful death; for according to his own words, God will take care of him."

Remember these were not Christians writing this, it was way before Christ.
Also look at the last line, Jesus says the Father will take care of Him all through the Gospels.

Canon or not, Jesus was familiar with the books of the Apocrypha.

Anonymous said...

Chris,

I know enough about church history to know that the reformation was necessary because the catholics were so messed up in their theology.

Thank God for the reformers. Whether they were Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, or just plain Fed Upist

Anon142 I like it :)

V Domus said...

Joe Blackman,

The NT is a Catholic book, look into history of the Canon. If there was any corruption regarding the books of the Bible, it was by Protetant subtraction not Catholic addition.

Joe Blackmon said...

V Domus

Thank you for sharing your opinion. I will give it all the consideration it deserves.

Anonymous said...

Joe, that is funny.

I gotta remember that one.

"I will give it all the attention it deserves"...

-insert cricket chirps here-

John Fariss said...

Tell me, Joe (and a few others):

What do you do with Luke 9: 49-50 ("'Master,' said John, 'we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.'
'Do not stop him,' Jesus said, 'for whoever is not against you is for you'.")? Or do you just think he was from a different Baptist church?

John Fariss

John Fariss said...

And by the way: I don't blame L's one bit for not jumping in here and giving her theology and her story of salvation, i.e., testimony. I would be insulted to be expected to do so if I were her.

Joe and others: you aren't actually suggesting that anyone is saved by believing correct theology, are you? If so--where does it end? At what doctrine? So-called first tier, second, third? All of the above? Pre-millenial, post, a-millenial? What if I (or L's, or anyone else) trusts Jesus as Lord and savior--and differtent faith traditions use different nomenclature here--then embrace some theological point which is incorrect. . . surely you wouldn't suggest I loose my salvation, would you? Or would you say that if Jesus were my savior, I couldn't possibly believe something wrong; and there if I believed something wrong, I wasn't saved in the first place? And if you have the wisdom and spiritual discernment to be able to tell one goat from the sheep, well maybe when Pope Benedict retires/dies/whatever, your name should be submitted to the College of Cardinals.

I'm sorry, my dander got up over all this. L's is a sweet lady, and I have learned much from her. That doesn't mean I'm ready to resign the pastorate of the Baptist church I serve and convert, but after all, I'm not the gatrekeeper at heaven's door, nor do I fill out the lamb's book of life. Anyone who does has the right to question her salvation. As for the rest of us. . . .

John Fariss

Joe Blackmon said...

John

I would hardly call 1) the false doctrine of Purgatory 2) the false doctrine of praying to Mary 3) the false doctrine of Christ being resacrificed everytime communion is taken 4) the false doctrine that Mary is co-redemptrix MINOR points of doctrinal disagreement. Holding to any one of those would demonstrate a lack of understanding of the true gospel and the nature of saving faith.

Further, I have no idea what L's believes or doesn't believe. My comments have been limited to Catholic doctrine and the apparent idea that some people have that there is nothing incompatible between Catholic doctrine and Christian doctrine.

Oh, and John, perhaps this might help that dander.

Anonymous said...

I am reluctant to put out anything to which I cannot attach my name, but I did yesterday when I posted as “anon Baptist” in order to see what would happen.

I posted that question expecting the kinds of responses that were made, but I was hoping that some would see the visceral rather than biblical nature of those posts – of even their own comments and convictions. Too often the necessities of our past struggles for orthodoxy and purity as Baptists have left us with a fighting spirit rather than one of true compassion and understanding. I was hoping that some would see that, but I’m not sure I succeeded.

The only person’s salvation that the Scripture instructs me to examine is my own. I am, however, to examine what people teach and how they behave from the light of God’s Word, but I don’t believe I have a right to question their true relationship to the Lord. Paul says that I am to examine myself to see if I am in the faith, but I have neither mandate nor even permission to question what God has done in the heart of another.

This is what I was hoping to lead some to discover for themselves.

Anyway, my name is Rick, and I stand by what I write.

Thy Peace said...

I just finished listening to #20. The Power of One's Words to Restore Saints (I Peter 1:22-25) of the series The Long Reach of Your Speech, of Pastor Wade's sermons.

This is the best of the whole set.

If you watch the video, it's titled "The Power of One's Words to Restore Believers", November 23, 2008 - Part 20 of series. The sermon is from 24:35 to 54:50.

Below are the sermon notes.
-----------------------------------
Galatians 6:1-2 (ESV)
Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

We began this series by explaining there are two kinds of speech identified in Scripture. There are reckless words that are compared to "pierces of swords" (Proverbs 12:18), and then there re apt words that are compared to "apples (jewelry) of gold" (Proverbs 25:11). Today we close the series by focusing on the power of our words to restore fallen saints. I use the term "saints" as the Apostle Paul uses it -- those justified by grace through faith.

Those who are saved by grace are sometimes surprised by sin.
"Brothers and sisters, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual restore him in a spirit of meekness" (v.1). The question we must ask is "what is sin?" The word translated transgression ("fault" in KJV) means "to fall by the wayside." It carries the connotation of a believer tripping and crossing an established boundary, to wind up doing, saying, or participating in something that is immoral or unethical.

The mark of genuine Christianity is a movement away from sin.
You shall call His name Jesus for He shall save His people from their sins (Matthew 1:21). When Christians sin, it is contrary to their nature. Tripping interrupts walking. "Sin may rebel in the heart of a believer, but it will never reign in the heart of a believer." Thomas Watson. The normal course of the righteous is away from sin.

The mistake many Christians make is to underestimate their vulnerability.
"It so happen" Stephen Olford said, "that the most grievous sins creep up." When James describes the temptation to sin in James 1:14 he uses a word that is translated "lure." It's the same word we use of fishermen who go after fish. They lure them in. Sin, too, your enemy will design your life to trip you up.

Those who are surprised by sin need Christians who know how to restore.
The word "restore" is a medical term in the Greek language. It was used of doctors who mended broken bones, and it was used of fishermen who mended torn nets.

You who are spiritual -- (pneumatikoi) "you who are spirit sensitive." Those who are more concerned with the temporal than the eternal are disqualified.

With a spirit of gentleness -- This is the spirit in which the words are conveyed. Showing a concern for the person who has transgressed in his walk with Christ.

Keeping watch on yourself -- without a spirit of superiority or pride that shows itself in words like "I would never do anything like that" Then you speak. "Speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way" (Ephesians 4:15).

The church is called to "bear one another's burdens" to fulfill the law of Christ.
The burdens mentioned in context are not necessarily financial or physical burdens. Paul is referring to those sins that trip up believers. It is a ministry of reconciliation and restoration. This "law of Christ" is mentioned by Paul in the previous chapter: "The whole law is fulfilled in one word. You shall love your neighbor as yourself" (5:14). My prayer is this series will have taught you the incredible importance of using your words as gifts, and, in the years to come, you speak words that bring healing and restoration to God's people. May God give us this gentle, spiritual, healing spirit.
-----------------------------------

Christiane said...

GIFTS OF GRACE:
a testimony of faith
and of acts of kindness

My son Patrick, whom I love, lives now in a group home on the grounds of Eastern Christian Childrens' Retreat, in Wyckoff NJ., which is run under the auspices of the Dutch Reformed Church.

He does not speak, but I understand him anyway.
Always have.
Don't know how, but I do.

Patrick communicates in other ways,
and he teaches me about God's love.

My son has Down Syndrome
with many medical problems.

He also has many gifts.

One of God's gifts to Patrick is that he is able to walk.

One day, I watched my son get up and walk to a shelf. He chose a musical toy and carried it over to a stretcher-bound resident and very, very gently, laid the toy in his hands.
And then Patrick returned to his seat.

The staff tells me that Patrick will frequently show kindness in this way.

I have two sons.

They are both Guardians.

One is in the Coast Guard and watches over his country.
One is in a group home and watches over its stretcher-bound residents.

I am proud of both.

My Patrick has become his brothers' keeper and Jesus will welcome him into the Kingdom.

Why do I share this?

Because I believe that, at some very deep level, we are all called to help others.

No one has taught this to Patrick: at least no earthly person. But still, he knows.

By some grace, some special gift of the Holy One, my son knows to care for another less fortunate than himself.

So please, don't say to his mother that 'showing kindness doesn't count' in the Kingdom of God.

My son, who does not speak,
has taught me otherwise.

Am I blessed or what? Love, L's

Chris Ryan said...

L's,

There are many people who understand the gospel far better than the most learned theologian. I wish that more of us could see that.

Christiane said...

Hi Chris Ryan,

It's me, L's

Remember this: sometimes the lessons from God come to us from the ones He chooses. These messengers may not be very 'smart' or well-versed, but they are given to know what many of greater intellect may never learn: the simple gift of love for one another.

Where in all the 'doctrine wars' was there ever a lesson greater for me than the one God taught me through my Patrick?

If there is, I do not know of it.

God is merciful. Love, L's

Christiane said...

Dear Wade,

It's me, L's

I would be more than happy to provide you with my thoughts on
'Called Out of Darkness' by Anne Rice.

I purchased it today and started to read and went through the first fifty pages without stopping.

When I finish, how do I get my comments to you? Should I mail them to the Church in Enid ?
I don't do e-mail, but I could type and transfer to a disc, if that would help you.

I would like to attempt a book review for you. Have never done a 'guest post' and so wouldn't know how.
All I can do is to give you permission to edit and use the book review as you see fit. I would be happy to do this, if it would please you.

Let me know how best to get information to you. I am honored to be asked, Wade.
You are very kind to ask me. L's

Anonymous said...

Hi L's - You said, "So please, don't say to his mother that 'showing kindness doesn't count' in the Kingdom of God."

I'm sorry L's. But kindness doesn't count. Not like you think it does.

Kindness as it might pertain to anything regarding salvation is a reaction of gratefulness by us for a changed heart and it comes on the backside of salvation. It is not a needed work on the frontside like you seemingly think it is.

And contrary to what John says, it is totally appropriate to ask people for their testimony of faith. Do we let any old pagan join our church? Of course not. (Or maybe some of us do which is why it is in such bad shape?)

We ask them (or should) for a statement of faith and we make a JUDGEMENT on them and what they said.

Can you believe I said it? A judgement!

Asking of someone if they beleive that salvation is by grace through faith in Christ alone PERIOD...and nothing else, is totally appropriate.

Unfortunately, your nonanswer to this should speak volumns, but alas we continue to focus on what a great person you are.

And by the way, I agree with that. You sound like an awesome person.

Thy Peace said...

Matthew 22:36-40
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[a] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[b] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Mark 12:29-34
29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[a] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[b] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c]There is no commandment greater than these."

32"Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."

34When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.


Luke 10:26-37
26"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

27He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'[a]; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[b]"

28"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

29But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"

30In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35The next day he took out two silver coins[c] and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'

36"Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"

37The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."
Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

John Fariss said...

Dear Joe,

You wrote, "I would hardly call 1) the false doctrine of Purgatory 2) the false doctrine of praying to Mary 3) the false doctrine of Christ being resacrificed everytime communion is taken 4) the false doctrine that Mary is co-redemptrix MINOR points of doctrinal disagreement." Uh. . . OK. But I did not say anything about "minor points," although I did refer to first, second, and third tier doctrines, so maybe that is where you got that. Still and all, you have missed my point. Certainly there are points of doctrinal disagreement betwen Catholics and Baptists. But my questions to you are, "Is one saved by doctrine?", "Can one loose his/her salvation by ascribing to incorrect doctrine?" , and "If one is saved, does he/she then have the ability to believe anything which is incorrect?" You ascertations (or at least their inplications), it seems to me Joe, are getting awfully close to salvation by what one knows rather than by who one knows--and the name for that is gnosticism, which I think you, L's, and I would all agree is a heresy. And you still have not answered my primary and initial question, which is, "What do you do with Luke 9: 49-50?" How do you exegete it? How do you apply it today?

John Fariss

John Fariss said...

Anony @ 4:48 AM,

I think you universalized my comment about testimomy, whereas I meant it in a single, specific situation. L's is having her testimony DEMANDED by certain writers on this blog as though (1)it is a necessary step to her being heard or having a right to comment on Christianity and (2) as though the bloggers in question have the authority to demand it. Were I her, I would be offended by that. THAT is the single situation to which I had reference. Of course, in other situations--such as when someone unites with the church--it is entirely appropriate to expect to hear that. But this is a blog, not the First Baptist Church of Wadesville, and if it were, Wade would be the one to ask, not you or I.

John

Christiane said...

For anon who wrote this to L's:

"We ask them (or should) for a statement of faith and we make a JUDGEMENT on them and what they said.
Can you believe I said it? A judgement!"

Dear anon:
Of faith, hope, and charity, which are we told is greatest?

Some cannot 'speak' their faith in words. Do you realize that they 'speak' their faith in other ways? And their testimony, too, has meaning. I like it that God has chosen them to speak to us in silence.

For me, I have learned of God from the love a child who cannot speak to me in words.
Like learning about love and caring from the film Wade showed us about little Bella and the elephant Tarra. Such a lesson of love and caring, and not a word was spoken.

I must be one of those people that God has chosen to teach through his non-verbal creatures, because they speak to me louder than you do. I believe with great commitment, in the words of St. Patrick, my son's namesake:
'Salvation is of God,
Salvation is of God,
Salvation is of Christ'
and I believe, in the ways of our Christian faith, which you and I share, that the greatest example of love ever shown was the Sacrifice of Christ on the cross for the redemption of the children of Adam and Eve.

There are NO WORDS greater than the action of His Sacrifice for us.

That kind of love: to come and take care of us 'stretcher-bound' in sin and bring us His loving care in a way that we, in the depths of our inhumanity, could understand. Surely, we must agree on that?

Perhaps not.

For some reason, the silent sermons of my son and Bella and Tarra speak more to me of the Kingdom, because that is HOW God speaks to one such as me.
And I hear Him. I hear Him.

Do not fear for my salvation, dear one. If God cared enough to teach me through the actions of Christ and the actions of those in our world who do not communicate in language, then He has been able to reach that part of my spirit that 'hears' at another level.

If you could not speak of God's love, dear anon, how would you tell those of your church who sit in judgment on your faith, that you believe in Him?

If you did not have the gifts of speech and intellect, could you still testify to the saving love of Almighty God for His creatures?

I am glad you can speak, and I am glad you care.
I accept your 'judgment' on me and on my child, and I know we don't belong in your church.

But, remember, you belong to a greater Church and, in that Church, there is room for those who don't meet your standards. There is a place there for my son in the Body of Christ where even simple gifts are welcomed in the service of the Holy One. May you and I meet there joyfully, my friend.

Love, L's

Anonymous said...

You put words in my mouth L's and I don't appreciate that. I didn't say some of the things you are insinuating I said, and I think you know I don't think them either.

Nevertheless, I'll let it go.

Here's the scoop L's. I think your acts of loving kindness towards humanity are just great. I try to live that sort of life as well, helping others when I can.

But I am just as UNinterested in telling you about any of my good deeds as I am hearing about all of yours in a discussion about the requirements of going to heaven.

Your deep rooted catholicism and misguided "good deeds" theology are making it impossible for you to simply answer the easiest question that could ever be asked of a Christian.

Christiane said...

For anon:

" I Corinthians 1:26-31 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise;
and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."


"GOD HAS CHOSEN THE WEAK THINGS OF THE WORLD TO CONFOUND THE MIGHTY."

And let us say, 'Amen'

Love, L's

You can't argue and win with a Down Syndrome child of God, a little dog named 'Bella', and a large old elephant named Tarra.
You are outnumbered, dear anon, by the 'weak things of this world'.
My love goes out to you and do not fear for me. Remain in His Peace. Love always, L's

Christiane said...

LENTEN REFLECTION:
from Psalm 139

"Psalm 139 (King James Version)

Psalm 139:1-13)
1 O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me.

2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.

3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.

4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.

5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.

6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high,
I cannot attain unto it.

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit?
or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.

12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

Joe Blackmon said...

L's

Now I take exception to your comment that an elephant is one of the weak things of this world. I'm a fan of the Alabama Crimson Tide and any animal related to Big Al sure ain't one of the weak things of this world. Haa

Christiane said...

Hi JOE BLACKMUN,
It's me, L's

Aww, say it aint so, Joe.
Poor old Tarra was all worn out and so they brought her to the retreat to spend out the rest of her days. And with no other elephant to hang out with.
You gotta have a little sympathy for her, Joe.

I DO admit, she is 'rather' large. :)

Joe, I am so sorry you were upset by this post. I'm so sorry.
I'm glad you are fond of elephants. I love them, too.
I love you, Joe. L's

Joe Blackmon said...

L's

I hope you realize that I was making a funny. You do, right? I'm pretty goofy but no I didn't take offense. You probably already know, but Alabama's mascot is Big Al, an elephant.

Humor doesn't translate very well in a blog comment thread. Haa

Christiane said...

JOE,

Any team that has elephants for a mascot has got to be a great team.
Your joke was cute.

I was looking at that film of Bella and Tara and I thought, gosh, that elephant was so gentle towards little Bella, and so devoted to her.

Last weekend, my daughter came over with her two 'rescue' dogs.

One is a little tiny Boston with a great big ego. His name is 'Jack'.

The OTHER dog is an enormous PIT BULL. Yes, my daughter rescued a PIT BULL from the shelter where she goes to do accounting, as they are clients of her firm. A soldier had to leave her because he had been deployed and no one would take her because she was a pit bull. No one, that is, but my daughter, who loves animals without any reservations whatsoever.

Oh, Joe, I was so 'prejudiced' against this dog. I was so scared.
I wouldn't go near her at first.
But she (her name is "Roxanna" or "Roxy" is the sweetest, most loving dog in the world. I love her now and would do anything for my grand-dog.

Last weekend, little Jack ran over and bit huge PIT BULL Roxy on the tail. The chase was off. They ran back and forth and back and forth, just playing. Roxy would never hurt Jack, no matter how often he bit her on the tail.

I had to learn not to judge an animal based on its 'reputation'.
I had to learn that even a pit bull can care for a little Boston that comes round and bites it on the tail.

Poor Roxy is now going to have some surgery. I am worried.
I hope she will continue to be a part of our family. Love, L's

Joe Blackmon said...

I hope the dog comes out of the surgery fine. As to your daughter rescuing a pit bull, she's an accountant and they're all a little bit off.

I can say that because I'm an accountant. Haa

I can remember asking the OB when my wife would go for checkups when she was pregnant with my son if the doc would induce us before the Dec 31st as long as it was safe. The due date was Jan 7th. She asked me "Why?" I said we could claim him on our taxes as long as he was born before New Years day. After all, all important life decisions should be made on the basis of their tax consequences. Haa

He was born just before Christmas a few years ago. Nice refund that year. :-)

Anonymous said...

L's - I think it's just you, me, and Joe still here but I hear your last comment and I understand we are not going to get anywhere.

Evangelism is difficult to do in real life and I would submit it is impossible through a blog.

Still not sure why you don't take the opportunity to put our concerns for you to rest by answering that very easy question, but it'll be floating around if you ever decide to.

I like elephants too.

Christiane said...

Yes JOE,
My daughter is an accountant as was her grandmother, my mom, now of blessed memory.

Both my mom and my daughter were much more 'off' than me. (Yes, Joe, I AM 'quirky', you nailed it.)
Both my daughter and my mom shared great need for getting their hair done, buying the latest fasions, and things like manicures, etc. etc. In short, high maintenance.

It skipped a generation.

So, I think I'm more like MY grandmothers who were not sophisticated in the sense of the world.

Well, anyway, I'm going to pray for a dog. I don't know if this is allowed, and I don't care. I'm going to pray for God to help Roxy and let her live. If this is heresy, I'm in. Go ahead, fire away. I admit it. I pray for dogs. I guess that is what you could call 'quirky'.

Joe, thank you for saying that you hoped she would be all right.
Love, L's

Christiane said...

Hi anon.

Yes. I think you are right.
I wish you wouldn't worry.
A while back, Kevin made me an honorary Baptist. I was VERY honored. (He even offered me free chicken if I could make it to his church for their shared meals after services.) And he gave me a blessing. I was so happy.

Kevin understands that I speak 'a different faith language'. But he knows that, in spite of that, I am a Christian woman who holds on very tightly to the Hand of the Lord Christ, in trust and in faith.
I won't let go. I know He won't let go of me.

Whatever our differences are, He is able to 'repair the breach', He is able to bless all those who love Him. And if you hold one of His Hands, and I hold the Other, we are then, not so far apart from each other. You will see, it will be all right. Be peaceful, dear one. Love, L's

Joe Blackmon said...

L's

If someone calls that heresy I would call that a "Their problem". I can't imagine God having a problem with anyone praying for a pet or other animal. I Peter says "Cast all your cares on Him for He cares for you".

Christiane said...

Thanks JOE,

I can pray in peace for my grand-dog and accept God's will.
Gosh, I LOVE that dog. Imagine that: me, loving a PIT BULL.
Life is full of surprises. :)

Love, L's

Anonymous said...

L's - Our differences are almost 1700 years old.

Don't forget to answer the question if you feel so inclined.

Christiane said...

Dear Anon,

don't worry, 'differences' are old
but Christ the Lord is Eternal:
from everlasting to everlasting.

Hold on to Him at the center of your life. I will hold on to him at the center of my life.
Remember, HE is the healer of the breach.

I think we'll be okay. :)

Love, L's

Anonymous said...

And the answer to the question...?

Joe Blackmon said...

Anon

You want to question Catholic Theology...fine. Heck, I question Catholic Theology. You want to ask out of concern for a person about the condition of their soul, that would be a good thing. However, what you're doing by badgering L's does not appear to be out of concern. It looks more like someone who is just badgering someone. I agree with John above that L's doesn't have to explain herself or her personal beliefs if she doesn't want to. The last time I checked (and admittedly, it has been awhile) she was not an official spokesperson for the Catholic Church or a professional theologian. Further, if you're going to continue to badger her about a question that she is well within her rights to ignore, doing so as an anon without signing your name makes you look like an internet troll.

I have been quite critical of folks who want to say that "All theology is good theology". What you're doing appears to be more of a personal attack on an individual.

I'm just sayin'....

Anonymous said...

Sayin' Joe. I hear what your sayin'. And I would have shut up a long time ago if she would just answer that dreadful question.

She won't answer because it will separate her from almost everyone else here.

Not that it's any of your business, but my missionary status won't allow me to leave my real name.

I used to leave a nickname, but frankly I got tired of it. I enjoy much more getting under peoples skin because of my anonymous status and having them call me names....like a coward.

Hi C.B.!

Later.

Anonymous said...

Hi slim,

your 'question' is not phrased in a way that makes sense to someone who sees the Christian faith differently. L's is under obligation to follow the commandments of Christ. Maybe your question does not include the need to do that.
Re-phrase your question in the light of those commandments so that she will understand what you mean. Maybe then, she can answer.

Anonymous said...

anon said: L's - Our differences are almost 1700 years old.


2 Peter 3:8

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, AND A THOUSAND YEARS
IS AS ONE DAY."

Anonymous said...

I appreciate the advice, but how can it get any simpler than, "Do you believe in salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ...ALONE...period."

It should take any true Christian about 2 seconds to answer that, regardless of their religious traditions or background.

If someone has to start dancing around traditions, or is trying to keep the commands of God, or not being able to answer because they are too busy doing good deeds, or anything else, then that provides the answer to the question.

And it's the wrong answer.

To state it again, regardless of what "religion" any of us may practice, if the above question causes you to stutter, or if you have to think about how to answer it in light of your works, or if it causes a problem because the question offends your traditions, then the question is answered and it is the wrong answer.

I realize Catholics have a hard time with that question because it exposes them and leans hard against their traditions of works, so I also offered, in lieu of an answer to that question, for her to simply state what is required for a person to go to heaven.

She is not going to answer and I'm getting real annoying to you and everyone else by continually asking for an answer.

So, let's go look at all the money in the next post.

Isn't that unbelievable?

Anonymous said...

Some Day, the long-awaited reign of God will blossom fully:

A day when NO ONE is excluded,
or isolated
or lonely

And so, on that day,
the Lord will come back to us again, knowing that, THIS time:
HE will finally be accepted
not excluded,
or isolated,
or lonely,

Accepted. On That Day.

May it be soon: Maranatha,
Come quickly, Lord Jesus

Anna A said...

Dear Anon 3-14, 7:26 am

Since you only chose to list yourself that way, you know that I am talking to you.

You seem to see things in black and white only, and only using your words (and by presumption your meanings of those words.)

One thing that I know about Catholics (because that I what I have become) and technical types (also who I am) is that we tend to give much weight to details, and things that others don't even notice. Even in chemistry, I have trouble giving what others would consider a straight answer because I see and MUST consider more details that might change the outcome.

We speak two very different religous languages, and approach God seemingly differently. And yet, while on retreat recently, I was thinking about your concerns. After repeating at several differnt prayer times, the Scriptures about Jesus coming to save the world, I wondered how anyone could consider that we did not believe in Jesus the Christ as the only way.

But, I can't speak your religous language, I truly doubt if I ever did. I just hope to greet you, if we both make it to heaven.

To Anon 3-14, 1 pm.

Thank you for all of your postings. May God continue to bless you and those whom you love, and those whom you are called to care for

Anonymous said...

L's church teaches this:

""If anyone shall say that Christ Jesus was given of God unto men as a Redeemer in whom they should trust, and not also as a legislator whom they should obey; let him be an anathema."

L's is under obligation to obey the Laws of Christ as He gave them in the Gospels, as a part of her faith.
She may not in conscience disobey the Laws of Christ as He gave them to His followers, she is also held accountable to obey the Moral Laws imprinted on her heart by God. These are obligations of her faith.