"I went to Jerusalem to become acquainted (Gk. istoria) with Cephas" - Paul's words from Galatians 1:18.

Forcibly Removing the Tulips at SWBTS (Part II)


There are a couple of observations I wish to make about the uproar over my post exposing Southwestern Theological Seminary President's expressed desire to remove all the known Calvinists from the faculty of SWBTS:

(1). This expressed intent to use the downturn in the economy to rid the faculty of Calvinists has been known by various SWBTS professors and administrators, but not all professors, for at least ten days. Meetings with professors were both individual in nature, and in a couple of instances, several professors at one time.

(2). Those who are "shocked" by the expressed intent to make Southwestern Theological Seminary the anti-Southern should be ashamed. Frankly, I am not as bothered by an ideological, independent, Landmark Baptist President's desire to remove Calvinists as I am his removal of a female Hebrew professor or his attempts to remove SBC missionaries who pray with a private prayer language. If you Calvinists are unwilling to protect the latter, then don't scream when they come after your brothers.

(3). For over three years I have grown quite comfortable with hostile attacks upon my integrity. When one is publicly called a liar and a slanderer enough times, he comes to the place where he no longer cares about the reaction about what he posts. But I will always care about the content of what I post, and I will only post the truth. And time always has a way of silencing critics, for time is the great revealer of truth. I continue to blog. I continue to stand by every word I write. You can rest assured that what I have written has been confirmed multiple times by multiple sources both at Southwestern and places of legal authority in Fort Worth, Texas.

(4). The uproar over the "leak" at Southwestern is humorous to me. No stone is being unturned to find who it was that let the cat out of the bag. My question, however, is different: Why is the President at SWBTS so concerned over who said what about SWBTS rather than what is being done to our seminary on the basis of his particular ideology?

(5). As of today, there has been a softening, and some say even a "retraction" of this past week's expressed intent to remove Calvinists from the faculty of Southwestern. Some say the retraction is an attempt to spite those who revealed the plan. If that happens, and Calvinists keep their job, I will receive no thanks from those who continued to be employed by SWBTS. Rather, I will continue to be called every name in the book (and some not in it). My satisfaction, however, rests in the fact that I prevented some removals based upon an a particular ideology that is consuming the SBC (anti-women, anti-charasmatic, anti-Calvinist, Landmark, etc . . ). Like I have often said, if we don't stop the narrowing, we will wake up and the Convention will resemble a large independent fundamentalist Baptist church in Kentucky rather than the historic, cooperative Southern Baptist Convention of years ago.

(6). There will be faculty reductions at SWBTS as there will be at Southern and other educational institutions of the Southern Baptist Convention. But, due to the uproar over the exposure of removing only the Calvinists at SWBTS, the chosen method of reduction, at least as of today, will be different.

(7). Southern Baptists better realize the path being taken by some leaders, and by God's grace, we better do all within our power to stop the forced removal of those people from SBC service and employment who don't agree with particular ecclesiological, soteriological and eschatological idealogues leading our Convention. This week was a solid step in the right direction. And, as the picture above shows, saving the tulips at SWBTS is on behalf of the next generation of Southern Baptists.

In His Grace,


Wade

230 comments:

1 – 200 of 230   Newer›   Newest»
Anonymous said...

I just got an e-mail from Dr. Tom Ascol from the Founders Ministries. I asked him if these reports were true? His response,

"Some. But I can't verify all. It appears that there was a plan to remove the Calvinist professors but that it has been, at least partly, thwarted. Time will tell."

Jerry Johnson, President
NiceneCouncil.com
The Apologetis Group, Inc.

Dan said...

Well done Dr. Burleson.

I'm impressed.

Seriously, if people had stood as strong as you a few years ago, we might not have been fractured.

Keep on keeping on. You have an army of admirers.

Dan

Anonymous said...

My, my, my. Once again, Wade Burleson hits one out of the park. Hat's off, my friend.

People who have read you faithfully, like my wife and me, knew you had a purpose, and according to Mr. Johnson above, it seems you have accomplished it.

We wish we lived in Enid. Thanks for your leadership and putting other people first.

John and Betty

Anonymous said...

What's missed here Wade is this. No one has any idea of the negative impact the missionary field would receive if an attempt was made to remove all the so called "Calvinists".

There are a bunch!

All walking a life of obedience all for the glory of God.

Joe Blackmon said...

I agree that we have to be able to "agree to disagree" on some issues. The idea of firing people because they're Calvinists is reprehensible just as if Southern was firing all Arminians.

BTW, I noticed I'm not on your blog roll anymore. What up wid dat, yo?

Wade Burleson said...

Joe,

I make sure that everything I write is truthful, and I either had to change the heading of the blog roll or remove your name. I chose the latter.

Blessings,

Wade

Thy Peace said...

Amen. Thank you, Pastor Wade and your informer(s). God bless you.

Joe Blackmon said...

Wade

Thanks for answering. I got a chuckle. I still think you're a pretty good guy and I respect that you stand on your convictions even if I don't agree with some of them.

msvoboda said...

Wade,

You dont see a difference in firing a person/people who hold beliefs that contradict the BFM and firing people that just dont believe what you believe?

The missionaries that were let go hold to theology that opposes the BFM, therefore, the SBC should not pay/support them.

In this case it is like you firing a pastor under you because he believes in Amillenialism while you are a premillinialist.

Anonymous said...

To MSVOBODA,

who wrote ' firing a person/people who hold beliefs that contradict the BFM '

JUST WHO controlled the committee that supposedly 'wrote' his bfm2k ?????

Get real.

Anonymous said...

Wade,
Thanks for your willingness to take the bullets fired by your opponents and other skeptics in order to make truth known to Southern Baptists.

From a Calvinist who fears what the SBC is becoming, I say thanks.

You and I have talked in the past, but I have not posted here for many, many, months. I return to read, and am not disappointed.

Thanks again.

msvoboda said...

Anonymous,

A group of people from different theological convictions wrote the BFM 2000. It doesnt matter whether or not you agree, the point is that there is a difference between what Patterson will possibly do and what happened to the missionaries.

Grow up and stop telling people to 'get real.' Especially when you missed the point of my comment.

Bill said...

Matt: I'm lost. Are you talking about different missionaries than what I'm thinking of? PPL and baptism administration aren't addressed in the BFM to my knowledge. Am I missing something? I'm not being snide.

Tom Parker said...

msvobda:

You said:"A group of people from different theological convictions wrote the BFM 2000."

I don't think so.

Trey said...

I have to say that I am very concerned at this point. You see, my wife and I have already made plans to move from California to Fort Worth to attend SWBTS in the Fall. However, after all of the issues that I have been reading about, I do not know if my conscience will allow it. Both my wife and I are at least 4 point (missional, evangelical) Calvinists and this act by the university leadership is completely reprehensible. I respect other people's views on issues that are non-fundamentals and I cannot stand this hypocritical, legalistic way of leadership. This looks way too much like the world to me. I did part of my undergrad at NOBTS and enjoyed the freedom of thought and the different ideologies that were expressed in love. However, I am seriously contemplating not going anywhere near "THE Seminary."

Trey

Tim G said...

Trey,
I would move to Fort Worth and enjoy what God has for you! You will find SWBTS wonderful and full of people just like you!

msvoboda said...

Trey,

I think you and your wife would greatly enjoy SWBTS, Southern, and every other SBC seminary. If Calvinism is a big issue for you than SOuthern seems like the best fit.

msvoboda said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bob Cleveland said...

msvoboda,

Could you please refer me to the portion of the 2000 Baptist Faith and Message which addresses the gift of unknown tongues, commonly referred to as a private prayer language?

We're studying the BF&M every Wednesday night with a small group, and I'd like to go over that.

Thanks.

Anonymous said...

msyoboda wrote, "It doesnt matter whether or not you agree, the point is that there is a difference between what Patterson will possibly do and what happened to the missionaries."

NOPE.

That's the point.

The monster that Patterson et al have created is no longer under their OWN control. The evil is so
great: so many have been hurt, that there is no turning back now for Patterson. He steered for the rocks when he started thowing people overboard. What he set in motion, he will have to face himself.

Like 'Frankenstein', you can't dismember this monster now and say that the arm is different from the leg. The 'works' of Patterson and company have caused great injury, to individuals, to their families, and to Southern Baptists who cherish their heritage.

It isn't about WHY they did the evil.

It is that they DID the evil.

You don't get it. You never will.
You are unable to get it.

Wade Burleson said...

msvoboda,

Please, Matt, answer the questions posed to you. Show us all where the credentials of the baptizer ("authorized by a 'Baptist' church) and the prohibition of praying in tongues privately is found in the Baptist Faith and Message 2000.

I will not hold my breath, because you can't.

I think you have a great deal to learn young man.

In His Grace,

Wade

msvoboda said...

Excuse me... not in the BFM 2000.

But as Wade knows that was a decision made by the board of trustees for the IMB. Am I wrong Wade?

anonymous,

you are not worth talking to any longer.

Wade Burleson said...

Matt,

The IMB trustees violated the intent of the Convention, payed no attention to the Garner Motion and refused to reverse their "doctrinal" policies that exceeded the BFM 2000, and the gate flew wide open to a continual narrowing of the doctrinal parameters to reflect the independent, Fundamentalist, anti-charismatic, anti-women, anti-Calvinist, Landmark ideology of Separatist Baptists who have overtaken leadership in the SBC.

In essence, those in control dictate what Southern Baptists are to believe.

So yes, Matt, you were wrong in your dogmatic assertions about the BFM 2000. You were wrong until others corrected you.

It ought to be a lesson to not be so dogmatic in the future, as in the comment you went back and deleted where you arrogantly stated you were speaking "the truth."

Some of us don't have the luxury of deleting what we write.

Blessings,

Wade

volfan007 said...

What is interesting, Wade, is that you're making all of these accusations, but I dont see the Founder's crowd saying anything about all of this!?! I mean, if this were true, then they'd be crying out to the highest Heaven. I just looked at three Founder's types blogs, and I saw no mention of this alleged "goings on" at SWBTS at all.

Could you please share with us how you know things that nobody else knows about? Not even SWBTS profs? Not even SWBTS students?

It's amazing.

David

Anonymous said...

TREY, you wrote, "However, I am seriously contemplating not going anywhere near "THE Seminary."

Yes, be careful.
Listen to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

By the time would get to SWBTS, the Almighty PP would have heard about what you wrote. Please be careful. Pray about it. And go where God leads you.

Stan said...

David Volfann,

Get your glasses. Read the first comment in this stream of comments.

Maybe Wade is a tad bit more connected than you are.

Anonymous said...

msvoboda said, " ANONYMOUS, you are not worth talking to any longer. "

You just did.

Anonymous said...

Look at the little PP mice scurry.
This would be kind of fun, if it wasn't so pitiful.

The little toadies NEED their big bully to stay in power. It's an addiction. Very sad.

Tom Parker said...

Stan:

Just joking with you, but please do not confuse David with any facts.

msvoboda said...

Yes Wade, I made a mistake and I fixed it. It was not the BFM, but rather the board of trustees for the IMB.


The point is that the missionaries stopped being supported because they held doctrine that contradicted those that were supporting them... the IMB... this is not the case with SWBTS, if this story is even true.

Austin said...

SWBTS is a missionary oriented school. While I feel there should be professors from a variety of backgrounds, it has always been interesting to me as a student, that there are professors who believe that God chooses in advance who will be saved and damned yet they teach at a missions oriented school.

I have met Patterson in person in his office, and after meeting him, there is no doubt in my mind that he is a compassionate man of God who will put God first and do what God would have him do as President of the Seminary.

CB Scott said...

Matt,You are a good guy. You have a bright future. So take this for what it is worth....Or not, its your call. As one who is constantly flamed by Anonys; I understand your frustration and consternation, but remember there is no person "not worth talking to any longer."

You probably did not mean that as it sounded. But remember, even Anonys are created in the image of God. All people have worth.

cb

Joe Blackmon said...

Ok, along the lines of the narrowing of the definition of what it means to be a Southern Baptist, I'm "corn-fused" as to why anyone would have gotten all tore up aobut "private prayer language" anyway. I mean, so what if someone has convinced themselves that when they mutter giberish while they're praying that they are actually speaking some sort of "secret prayer language". I think it's pretty silly but I sure wouldn't call someone a heritic over it. I could see it if they were running up and down the church isles yelling "tiemybowtieuntiemybowtie" and trying to slay people in the spirit but we're talking about someone doing something in private.

Anonymous said...

The money didn't come from the IMB for those missionaries, it came from thousands of people who sacrificed for the missions prayerfully. The IMB as an agent, was supposed to SUPPORT the missionaries.

It did not, much to the heartbreak of many who contributed.

volfan007 said...

Stan,

OOOOhh...Wade said so. I'm supposed to just accept that Wade says that there are "sources" from SWBTS that have told him these things. I seeeee.

Yea, right.

David

PS. Again, where is the Founder's crowd screaming, "Foul?" Where are the SWBTS profs and students saying that this is happenning? I mean, all I've seen so far are SWBTS profs and students saying that it hasnt happened, and is not happening. So, what are we to think?

Joe Blackmon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

To CB,

just let Matt say what he wants.
He is just letting 'anony' no where anony stands with him.

In this way, Matt is following after his shepherd, PP.

Joe Blackmon said...

David

I think the first comment says that the person leaving the comment had just gotten an email from Tom Ascol that said he could verify some of the reports. Perhaps that is what Stan was directing you to.

Wade Burleson said...

Sounds like the cavalry is being sent in to defend SWBTS. Students, please sign your name. The library at SWBTS has a particular IP address, and your comment does not come tagged with said IP.

Tom Parker said...

David:

Did you just called Wade a liar?

No amount of information from Wade would satisfy you.

Anonymous said...

Wade and all:

I have a suggestion about "lying" and "questioning integrity" issues that I think may help dialogue in the future.

I have found that very few people, such as the people on this blog, out and out lie.

Also, "lying" involves intentions. Someone may say something that is not truthful or accurate, but it may not be a lie. They may believe what they are saying, or their info may be bad etc.

Because of this, I learned a long time ago not to say someone was "lying" or to call other poeple "liars."

If one person makes a statement, and another person has information that causes them to believe the statement is not true. Just keep it at that. "That statement is not truthful" or "That statement is not accurate" (same thing in my book, but you can pick the term you prefer).

To say, "You are lying" or "You are a liar" requires a great deal of knowledge both of all facts from both sides (which most people rarely have, even though they think they have it), and it requires a gaze into the heart of the person speaking.

So, I would suggest that if we read something that we sincerely believe is not truthful or accurate, say that, but don't call people liars or say they are lying.

Conversely, if another person is told that what has been said is not truthful or accurate, that person should not immediately take the statement as a challenge to their integrity. "What you said is not truthful or accurate" is different from "you are a liar", "you are lying."

The person responding can say, "What I said was truthful because..."

Finally, in situations where there are such starkly different pictures drawn, it may appear someone is not being truthful or accurate. It is often the case, however, that there is some truth in what is being said by both sides. It may be that neither person knows the entire story, or that one of the persons has drawn conclusions from facts, but the conclusions may not be accurate. But this does not mean that either person is lying.

I am not accusing anyone in this particular instance of doing any of this per se, but I have seen these issues pop up from time to time.

I do believe that we can argue over the truthfulness or accuracy of statements without impugning people's character.

Louis

Wade Burleson said...

And, by the way, to the anonymous student who said he was in the library whose comment was deleted.

The word is "hearsay" not "heresay." Looks like you have been attending the Tim G. school of spelling. :) (I corrected Mr. G. on the same word last week).

It might actually helped if you did go to the library more often.

volfan007 said...

Stan,
Also, who is Jerry Johnson? Should we just believe him as well? since no one at SWBTS knows anything about this? no one from SWBTS has said anything about this?

And, I believe Tom Ascol said, in that email, if it's real, that he couldnt verify all of it. And, Tom is the Founder's Man, who should know all of this before Wade.

David

Anonymous said...

SWBTS is 'smokin' with activity.
We just see the tip of the iceberg here. You can bet the topic is out in the open at 'the seminary' among faculty and staff.

Very healthy: for them to know.

Tom Parker said...

David:

Did you just call Wade a liar again? Man, you are on a roll aren't you.

Timothy said...

Volfann,

If Wade said the world was round, you would say it is flat.

If Wade said you were fat, you'd say you were skinny.

If Wade found a penny, you'd say he stole it from the seminary.

If Wade were six feet under at the cemetery, I honestly think you'd believe you were haunted.

Get a life.

Robert said...

What is Johnny Hunt's take on this ...I cant imagine he would be happy with turn of events under his watch.
Please dont flame me with the whole history of his comments and the ergun caner vs founders thing . I know it.

Iam simply asking as a president of the SBC.

Wade Burleson said...

Tom and others,

I would leave David alone. He said I was lying about the IMB. He said I was lying about Dr. Klouda.

I'm used to both his accusations and my words standing the test of time.

Nothing else needs be said.

Tom Parker said...

Wade:

I will try my best to leave you know who along. He just irks the time out of me. Thanks for the advice.

volfan007 said...

Tom,

All I'm saying is that if these accusations are true about SWBTS, then let's see some proof. I learned a long time ago that people can twist things, or misundertand things, or let their bias dictate thier spin on what's really happened, etc.

So, again, I say...where is the evidence of this accusation by Wade? Where's the proof? Where's the eyewitnesses? I mean, these are some serious accusations made that could lead to some people getting very upset and could even affect thier jobs. So, where's the evidence?

If it's true, then let's hear it. If it is true, then let's deal with it in that way. But, how do you know that any of this is true, Tom? How do you know...100% sure, know it?

David

Austin said...

(1) the word I used is a good, old-fashioned word. Gets the point across.
(2) As a student, I am simply offering my perspective based on what I have seen and heard. I am not trying to offer up a straw man. And I’ve taken classes on these issues from Calvinists, so trust me, I understand them.

I am a student but live off campus since I commute.

Also, I’m not a Baptist so I would prefer not to post my full name or student e-mail.

I only learned about this because I sometimes check SliceofLaodicea and there was a link.

As a student, I have not been "sent" in any way. I posted a nice comment about Dr. Patterson because I had the privilege and honor to meet him in person for a few minutes, and I was amazed by how gracious he was.

I love SWBTS and being a student at SWBTS has been a wonderful experience for me.

I can be contacted at teqnic@mac.com.

Anonymous said...

So David, what was YOUR PROOF when you called Wade a liar about his posts concerning Dr. Klouda.

I would really like to know
YOUR PROOF.

Otherwise, your comments here are, how did you say it, 'not worth listening to'.

Anony

Robert said...

Wade
Would you please stop allowing anon comments!
People who need anonymity for real reasons can use all kinds of electronic tools and pseudonyms for protection.
I know the IMB sets them up well with those tools.

People have the courage to stand boldy for your convictions.

Robert I Masters
From the Southern baptist Geneva

Wade Kudos for doing that yourself!

volfan007 said...

Wade,

I said that you were lying about the IMB? Really?

I said that you were lying about Dr. Klouda? Really?

Where did I say that you were lying about these two things?

I do remember telling you that I didnt agree with your take on the IMB and Dr. Klouda. I remember disagreeing with you about the IMB being able to have narrower requirements than the BFM2K...that I believed it was ok for them to have rules and qualifications beyond the BFM2K...that the BFM2K was a minimal document, rather than a maximum document. I dont remember ever calling you an out and out liar.

I also said that Dr. Klouda, nor any other woman, should be teaching men doctrine, because it goes against the clear teaching of Scripture. I dont remember calling you a liar.

Anyway, I would like to know how you know so much about all of this when no one else knows anything else about it? I mean, how do you know so much about SWBTS that even profs and students dont know?

David

debbiekaufman said...

I'm used to both his accusations and my words standing the test of time.

Nothing else needs be said.


Amen! :)

Anonymous said...

Volfann,

The moment Wade reveals his sources, they are fired, on the spot.

Are you so dense you can't understand that little point?

Stephen said...

Wade, Thanks for articulating the issues at hand with class and integrity. I know I can trust you....unfortunately I cannot say the same about some of our so-called leaders. The Klouda incident did me in....this latest is just a reaffirmation of the mindset of P.P., et al.

Wade Burleson said...

David,

Thanks for clarifying that you are not, nor ever have, called me a liar.

I agree with your assessment.

Blessings,

Wade

P.S. The Holy Spirit has not prompted me to share with you how I know what I know. The moment He does, I will be more than happy to let you in on the way I receive my information.

Joe White... said...

Transparency is critical to credibility. I find it very ironic that the champion of transparency in the SBC is hiding behind anonymous sources.

Wade Burleson said...

Joe White,

When I am protecting the livelihoods and families of Southern Baptists, I have no problem keeping the identities of my sources secret and enduring barbs from men like Joe White. I've seen the pain of a Southern Baptist woman selling her blood to help pay for her husband's medical expenses, all because she lost her job with the Southern Baptist Convention. I've seen first hand the trauma involved with my friends, men who are Southern Baptists, having their personal lives ruined by intentionally vicious rumors ("Did you know he spent time in a mental hospital?" or "Did you know he is having an affair") all because these men opposed the powers that be.

Your words have no affect on me Joe. My sources will remain unknown because the secrecy is to protect them, not me.

volfan007 said...

Wade,

I just simply said that I dont remember ever saying that you were lying about the IMB, nor about Dr. Klouda.

I never said that I havent ever said that you were lying.

:)

David

Robert said...

In Defense of David...a little.

Tom Ascol did say it "Appears" that way.

BTW....Wade quotes Paige as saying that he told some people the calvinist were being let go. Knowing the history of us Young, Restless , and Reformed. Why would he tell anyone that statement ...that would be bad Human Resource Strategy.


From the Southern Baptist Geneva
Robert I Masters

Stan said...

Boom!

Joe's down on the canvas!

Ding, ding, ding.

Match over.

Wade Burleson said...

Tom Parker,

Um, I've changed my mind about you and David.

:)

Grin.

St. Steven of St. Paul, MN said...

Yep, this is definitely a SBC blog spot. Keep tearing one another up. I was first referred to this site by an IMB admin/missionary. I will not be returning. It brings back far too many sad and hurtful feelings from the days of the emptying of agencies/seminaries for supposedly wrongful theology regarding theories of inspiration. The SBC is reaping what it has been sowing. I do pray for you from time to time.
Steven

Doug said...

Thank you once again! As I said in a previous post, you, Wade, are raising an army who are informed and passionate. Keep up the good work!

Anonymous said...

Austin,

Let's understand somthing that you need to learn. Many of us have nice, gracious meetings with people. That does not account for the entirety of any person's doings. Some of us have discovered that people who can be warm can also be duplicitous at times.

Some of us have had private meetings with Dr. Patterson through the years and experienced the graciousness of which you speak. We may even agree with much that he has preached and the stands he has taken in the Convention. But that does not mean that he isn't capable of doing what's being questioned here. I'm not willing to throw down the gauntlet just yet. Dr. Patterson has a mixed track record on Calvinists in general- both good and not so good. The current question is a cause for concern.

Do post nice, generous comments about Dr. Patterson, but don't assume you know everything about a person based on one cordial meeting.

Rex Ray said...

Volfan 007 or David,
I guess you haven’t read the last of yesterday’s post by Darrin. Here it is.

Darrin said...
I don't know if this has been posted already, but today Ken at Apprising posted some info and an email from a student at:
http://apprising.org/2009/02/are-calvinists-to-be-let-go-at-southwestern-baptist-theological-seminary/

Whatever the job status of monergists at the seminary may be (and I'm not saying that their jobs nor accurate reporting are unimportant), what concerns me most in that email is:
"I as a student can truly say that there is tension on the campus between those who hold to the Doctrines of Grace and those who do not. I believe that much of the reason for this at least surfaced between the Building Bridges Conference and the John 3:16 Conference."

The many who are more familiar with the SBC seminaries than I am might say this is nothing new. But it still points to the basic issue of the SBC being divided in our soteriology, which I believe impacts our whole theology. Do we try to sweep it under the rug and hope it goes away, or what?

Grace alone.
Wed Feb 04, 03:42:00 PM 2009

Rex says...David, read the reference yourself and be not doubting but believing.

The most revealing to me was the student saying:

“Dr. Welty responded strongly against Burleson and he should for Burleson is not correct in his information. However, it also needs to be said that there have been meetings between the President at SWBTS and Faculty in the last few weeks in which some were asked questions about their soteriology and their church affiliation.”
Pastor: J. Randall Easter

Benji Ramsaur said...

Speaking for myself, I think my shock had to do with how bold this move would be in the light of, what I would perceive to be, the mega political ramifications in the convention and not to do with what is more right or wrong.

Personally I have already let my view be known as to how I think the Lord sees the Klouda incident:

http://kerussocharis.blogspot.com/2009/01/trouble-at-southwestern-theological.html

Mon Jan 05, 02:04:00 AM 2009

Bob Cleveland said...

Volfann,

Dr. Klouda teaching men is "against clear teaching of scripture?"

HUH?

Please .. show me where anybody TOLD anyone not to let a women teach men.

volfan007 said...

Bob,

1 Timothy 2:12

David

Stan said...

Volfann,

Crawl back under the rock where you came from, and as you go, ask your wife to remove her gold, pearls and earrings - and tell her to never open her mouth to teach you anything, including giving you driving directions.

Wow.

Anonymous said...

Does the thought occur to anyone (ok, some including Wade seem to understand) that employees may want something to come to light without endangering their livelihood? I think this is the case here.

Has anyone else on this blog read any of the sad stories about what happens to whistleblowers after their identity becomes known.

And don't say there are laws. Yes there are laws, but they don't seem to work any better than victim protective orders. Maybe something gets done but not before bad things happen to the person who tried to be helped by them.

What do you think would happen to the people who told Wade if their identities became known?

Wade has proved truthful in the past and I will trust him on this one also.

Susie

Austin said...

Anon,

Point taken. However, in these comments and elsewhere, there seems to be a lot of hostility directed towards Dr. Patterson. He is in a position of leadership and with that comes criticism; however, criticism can be unwarranted. Any pastor who has ever taken a stand for anything knows that.

Bob Cleveland said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bob Cleveland said...

The only thing Paul TOLD Timothy in that verse is that HE (Paul) didn't let "a woman", which seems to mean A woman, or A betrothed woman, or A wife, teach a man. From the same Paul who told the Corinthians (ch5) to throw out the gross sinner from the church and not even have dinner with him, that sure doesn't look like an instruction to me.

And would seem to fly in the face of God's having appointed women as Prophets and Judges, unless being filled with the Holy Ghost makes a women less able to teach, rule, etc.

ps: I don't have the nerve to say what the security word is.....

Joe White... said...

Wade,

You wrote... "...I am protecting the livelihoods and families of Southern Baptists..." and... " I've seen first hand the trauma involved with my friends, men who are Southern Baptists, having their personal lives ruined by intentionally vicious rumors."

I guess Dr. Patterson and the faculty at SWBTS don't have families, aren't Southern Baptists, or cannot feel any trauma that might be caused by you spreading a vicious rumor. A rumor that is hearsay (I spelled it right), at best... and libelous to slanderous at worst.

I realize Wade that my words will probably not have an impact on you. At the same time, one cannot help but notice the tragic irony of you maintaining anonymous sources and allowing anonymous comments, when you repeatedly call for transparency. Sorry, but I won't let you have your cake and eat it too.

Joe White... said...

Stan,

Ding, ding, ding!

Back up.

Robert said...

Stan and Bob,
Sorry gentleman the majority of Southern Baptist simply do not hold your interpetation of that verse.

Here are some leaders who hold to the complimentarian view

Mark Dever Al Mohler Richard Land Johnny Hunt Piage Patterson Danny Akin

now please name some egalitarian leaders in the SBC.......sorry its a different issue then Calvinism.
Your in the minority even amongst calvinism.

Apples and oranges and you diminish your argument when you equate the two.


From the Southern Baptist Geneva
Robert I Masters

Wade Burleson said...

Joe White,

The person needing defending is the weak, not the strong.

The person who needs to be confronted is the oppressor, not the oppressed.

The person who needs help is the one without the power, not the one in power.

Please tell me how Dr. Patterson compares to Dr. Klouda, Dr. Bullock, Dr. Rankin and the tulip men in the above categories?

By the time Southern Baptists have finished correcting our course, Dr. Patterson may very well need our compassion and support. He will receive it from me when he is helpless, weak, needy and oppressed, just like the others have received it.
Wade

Joe Blackmon said...

Bob

Oh, ok so some things in the Bible are just one man's opinions or preferences. Would you be so kind as to point out what parts of the Bible still apply and which ones we can ignore.

Thanks

Um, why does my word verification thing say "fundy"?

volfan007 said...

Everyone,

Dr. Patterson has hired Five point Calvinist profs at SEBTS and at SWBTS in the past. Did yall know that? So, why would he hire them, then turn around and scheme to fire them?


Also, I dont doubt that there may be layoffs coming...in all the seminaries...due to the economic hardtimes that we've fallen into in our country. But, to say that Dr. Patterson is targeting five pointers...after he has a history of hiriing five pointers...is suspiscious.

David

Austin said...

Volfan007,

That is a great point.

Matt said...

Do you all not realize the absurdity of Wade's argumentation? A hypothetical example was used to show this in the previous post, but it failed due to its subject matter. Let me try to make the same point with a different example.

I have it on good authority that Dr. Patterson possesses an atomic bomb that he plans on using to destroy Southern Seminary, that accursed bastion of Calvinism in the SBC.

How do I know this? I have sources at SWBTS, of course. Who are my sources? I cannot tell you, for if I did they would be fired. Immediately.

Now, just wait and see. If Dr. Patterson does detonate his atomic bomb at Southern, I am proven right.

If Dr. Patterson does not detonate his atomic bomb at Southern, I still am right because it was this comment, yes, THIS COMMENT, which let the cat out of the bag, thus foiling Dr. Patterson's evil plan.

This is the logic behind Wade's argumentation, folks. Now you tell me whether or not it's sound.

Anonymous said...

That is funny Bob.

I'm not sure if it's a coincidence or not, but my word verification is vlfnsrstoopid

:)

David, reading the bible here. Just wanted to remind you to have your children executed if they are disrespectful.

Thanks.

Bob Cleveland said...

Joe,

Oh, it still applies. Where it tells someone to do something, or not to. That passage doesn't seem to.

Joe Blackmon said...

Bob,

If Paul said he didn't allow something he wrote it under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, God is saying it using Paul as a mouthpiece.

Matt

It's just a personal opinion but I think I'd use a different example. You can file that under "for what it's worth".

Scott Shaffer said...

I don't do this often, but I'll defend Wade keeping his sources anonymous - at least to a point.

I'm old enough to remember President Nixon's downfall at the hands of Woodward & Bernstein's source, "Deep Throat". The newspaper's job was to have sufficient confidence that what the source was telling them was true. Deep Throat's identity wasn't revealed until the past few years, yet the information given was accurate.

Similarly, if a source gives Wade information and Wade is confident it is true - maybe he corroborates it with other sources - then he goes ahead and publishes it. Now if it turns out the story is wrong - well he needs to retract it and ask for forgiveness. That remains to be seen. Some of us would probably publish the information without corroborating it while others would probably want so much assurance it was true that we would never publish. Regardless, I'm sure more information will be forthcoming in one way or another in the days and weeks ahead.

Darby Livingston said...

I think Matt's scenario is a close point for point example of what is happening with Wade's post, except that his example isn't as credible. But he is right about how it looks on the surface.

The problem is that what Wade is suggesting obviously isn't ludicrous enough to die a silent death. People all over are talking about it and lining up on sides.

Matt Drudge has made a good living writing things that no one thinks he should know.

johnthebaptist said...

Stan said...
Volfann,

Crawl back under the rock where you came from, and as you go, ask your wife to remove her gold, pearls and earrings - and tell her to never open her mouth to teach you anything, including giving you driving directions.

Wow.


Stan,

Why such a harsh rebuke to a brother? You can disagree without being so hateful.

I guess I could understand the attack more if he was "bamafan" or "gatorfan". : )

I am just saying a brother/sister (or anyone) deserves more respect whether you agree with him/her or not.

John

Greg Alford said...

David, Joe, and anyone else screaming for proof,

I will ask you; “WHERE IS PAIGE PATTERSON”? WHERE IS SWBTS?

If something this damaging was rumored to be true about me, or the church I have pastored for over eight years, you can bet I would publish an official response ASAP!

The silence coming from Paige Patterson and SWBTS is deafening. Why have they not addressed this damaging rumor, if it be not true?

Like I said in my earlier comment… I don’t know it is true or not, and time will tell, but the longer Paige Patterson and SWBTS are silent the more I am leaning toward believing that it must indeed be true.

Grace Always,

Joe Blackmon said...

Greg

Would you be so kind as to copy and paste a quote from me saying that I was screaming for proof?

Thank you

Wade Burleson said...

Scott Schaffer,

A surprisingly cogent statement.

Scott Shaffer said...

Wade,

Thanks,... I think.

Anonymous said...

"I just simply said that I dont remember ever saying that you were lying about the IMB, nor about Dr. Klouda"

You did as you are doing now. Demanded proof. Now you are saying you have a 'different view' of what happened with Klouda...despite all the facts that came out later. You simply do not believe Klouda or Wade. Or the depostion. Have it your way. Blind ignorance is bliss to some. YOu have made Patterson an idol.

Patterson got off scott free because SWBTS is a 'church'. Which means he can do what he wants here, too, because it is a church. But NOW , he has PR problems. He did not have those when he was ruining a woman's life. That says a lot about the SBC in general.

Lydia

Wade Burleson said...

Matt Milsap,

There is one fatal logic in your argument. You act as if I care whether you believe what I have written or not. I didn't write it, nor will I defend it, to get you to trust my integrity.

I wrote it to help others.

Robert said...

Greg,
Because Wade has been on a Patterson diatribe since Klouda days.
So you let people think what they think...on and on!

Robert i Masters
from the Southern baptist Geneva

Joe White... said...

Wade,

Truth is what must be contended for and defended, whether it be found on the side of the strong or weak.

Sorry, but I cannot make a presumption of guilt against a man of God and leader of an SBC seminary based on a hearsay rumor, from an anonymous source, that is reported on an internet blog.

Anonymous said...

"Oh, ok so some things in the Bible are just one man's opinions or preferences. Would you be so kind as to point out what parts of the Bible still apply and which ones we can ignore."

Logical fallacy UNLESS you are greeting other christian men with
Holy Kisses because Paul said to do so...Inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Lydia

PS: are you so sure authenteo is 'clear'? why is it used only once in all scripture?

Greg Alford said...

Joe,

Not you… the other Joe :-)

Robert,

What???

Listen… Nope… nothing from SWBTS yet?

Grace Always,

Robert said...

Lydia,
Is a job a right given to us by God?
You sound like you believe that to be true.
Robert I Masters
Geneva SBC

Anonymous said...

"I guess Dr. Patterson and the faculty at SWBTS don't have families, aren't Southern Baptists, or cannot feel any trauma that might be caused by you spreading a vicious rumor. A rumor that is hearsay (I spelled it right), at best... and libelous to slanderous at worst."

I am sure he felt trauma at Pecan Manor with his pastry chef and new china while Klouda was selling her blood.

Joe, your comment is precisly why so many do not trust the SBC anymore. They know who some folks are looking out for.

Lydia

CB Scott said...

Is the primary source still anomymous?

cb

Anonymous said...

Lydia,
Is a job a right given to us by God?
You sound like you believe that to be true.
Robert I Masters
Geneva SBC

Wed Feb 04, 06:29:00 PM 2009

What??? What on earth does that have to do with anything? One would think that Patterson's job is a RIGHT. He sure treats it like that.

If you are referring to Klouda.... Are you forgetting that SWBTS conferred upon her the doctorate and HIRED her?

Lydia

Robert said...

Greg,
This was in response to this question by you

The silence coming from Paige Patterson and SWBTS is deafening. Why have they not addressed this damaging rumor, if it be not true?

My response

Greg,
Because Wade has been on a Patterson diatribe since Klouda days.
So you let people think what they think...on and on!


Robert i Masters
From Geneva


trust me here in nashville Wade is usually the bad guy.

Matt said...

Matt Milsap,

There is one fatal logic in your argument. You act as if I care whether you believe what I have written or not. I didn't write it, nor will I defend it, to get you to trust my integrity.

I wrote it to help others.


Wade,

The point I made with the example stands whether you care I believe what you have written or not. You would not have posted it on your blog had you not cared about whether anyone thought it was true.

Whether the post helps others or not relies entirely on its credibility.

Anonymous said...

Sorry, but I cannot make a presumption of guilt against a man of God and leader of an SBC seminary based on a hearsay rumor, from an anonymous source, that is reported on an internet blog.

Wed Feb 04, 06:22:00 PM 2009

Wade, Maybe if you were still a 'leader', Joe would be more likely to believe you. He seems to favor status and titles.

Joe, there are no 'men of God'.Only ordinary depraved sinners saved by grace. There are no professional Christians. God is no respecter of persons.

Robert said...

Lydia,
It is common knowledge that liberals feel jobs , tenure are a right.
Can you say APU?

Robert I Masters
From Geneva

Anonymous said...

You know the old adage ... "if you looked up XXX in the dictionary there would be a picture of ...."

I have decided that if you looked up the word arrogance in the dictionary there would actually be two pictures. One of Paige Patterson and one of Wade Burleson. Two diametrically opposed personalities who share one similar characteristic ... an ego so large that its boundaries know no ends.

Seriously.

Anonymous said...

trust me here in nashville Wade is usually the bad guy.

Wed Feb 04, 06:35:00 PM 2009

Funny you should say that. At SBTS, in some circles, his name is whispered with great anticipation and agreement. :o)

whispered, mind you.

More and more folks who want to see the SBC cleaned up are coming out of the woodwork and giving a nod of agreement.

People have idol fatigue from the last 30 years. Including from Geneva.

Anonymous said...

It is common knowledge that liberals feel jobs , tenure are a right.
Can you say APU?

Robert I Masters
From Geneva

Wed Feb 04, 06:40:00 PM 2009

Is that a direct accusation against Klouda. Are you rewriting the history of what happened? She is now a liberal who thought she was OWED a job and tenure?

You are a sad man, Robert.

Tell me, does your mom have the same doctrine as you?

Anonymous said...

Greg Alford, PP is not going to deny this, because he can't.

Wade Burleson said...

Matt,

Matt, I am confident you are a bright student at SWBTS. Allow me, however, to correct a minor point of logic in your last comment. You write:

Whether your post helps others or not relies entirely on its credibility.

No sir, you are wrong.

Whether my post helps others or not relies entirely on its truthfulness.

Credibility is what others, like you, believe about what I've written. Truthfulness is what actually takes place at SWBTS.

I know it is hard for you, but just pretend that what I wrote is true. Then the intentions of those who were planning to remove Calvinists from the SWBTS faculty were exposed BEFORE they could fulfill their plan. It would not be prudent, therefore, for them to follow through with the plan because of the outcry.

Now, the only recourse is to say "That Wade Burleson is a no good rotten scoundrel. He's a liar. We would never dismiss anyone for ideological reasons at SWBTS!!!" Or, they might get their lackies to write Wade is a "wild-eyed liberal." In other words, they cast doubt on the credibility of the messenger.

But the people earlier targeted were saved.

So, I hope you see that it is not the "credibility" of my post, as you suggest, that helps people, but rather, the "truthfulness" behind it.

And, I am more than willing to be called names to prevent any more ideological removals in the SBC.

Klouda's removal was purely ideological. Bullock's removal was purely ideological. Rankin's attempted removal was purely ideological. McKissic's attempted removal as an SWBTS was purely ideological. The attempted removal of tulips at SWBTS was ideological.

I and others have drawn a line in the sand and said their will be no more removals from service and ministry for particuliar, if not peculiar, ideological reasons.

In His Grace,

Wade

Anonymous said...

Steven,

I remember those days too.

Reminds me of Pogo's comments about who the enemy was that he'd met.

DLP

Robert said...

Is that a direct accusation against Klouda. Are you rewriting the history of what happened? She is now a liberal who thought she was OWED a job and tenure?

You are a sad man, Robert.

Tell me, does your mom have the same doctrine as you?


Answer....actually that was in response to Lydia.

As far as my doctrine and my mothers.
We are in absolute agreement on complimentarianism. In Fact if you want a discussion on feminism in the modern Church be prepared to be lectured. So yes i get that from her.
As far as the Calvinism ...no we dont see eye to eye. She is a dispensationalist and her church will not support reformed missionaries. Its a Bible Church. They are all DTS grads.


Robert I Masters
From the Southern Baptist Geneva

Anonymous said...

Robert,

Right NOW, there are people who are reading this who are laid off from work or about to be, and they know it.

We really are struggling to have patience with the old 'hooray for the rich, hooray for trickle-down economics, and on and on, but
Robert, this is not the time.

If you want to throw around the idea that JOBS are not something we are entitles to,
then we are going to think you are one of those far-right neocons who sent OUR AMERICAN JOBS overseas.

We are glad you are working.
But don't rub in the pain of those who are not. Not cool.

Alan Cross said...

Wade,

Apparently you were serious about this and your previous post was not satire. Wow. Sorry for the correlation with Corbaley. I couldn't believe you would do that, but your claim was so unbelievable and fantastic, an attempt at a larger point is all that I could imagine and it reminded me of what Corbaley tried to do (and failed miserably). VERY glad to see you weren't doing that. Hard to believe that anyone would, but it did come to mind.

I just cannot believe that Dr. Patterson would try and remove the Calvinistic professors from SWBTS. I am not saying that you made this up at all, but the idea that he would do that shocks even me, and I've seen the inside of all of this. It is not shocking because I don't know his personal theology or because I don't know history. It is just shocking because of what an utterly stupid move it would be. It is hard to imagine anyone thinking that they could do that in an SBC seminary.

volfan007 said...

Everyone,

I noticed that everyone seemed to skip right over my comment earlier, so here it is again. I'd love to hear comments about this statement.

Dr. Patterson has hired Five point Calvinist profs at SEBTS and at SWBTS in the past. Did yall know that? So, why would he hire them, then turn around and scheme to fire them?


Also, I dont doubt that there may be layoffs coming...in all the seminaries...due to the economic hardtimes that we've fallen into in our country. But, to say that Dr. Patterson is targeting five pointers...after he has a history of hiriing five pointers...is suspiscious.


David

Anonymous said...

johnthabaptist, get a life...good grief! DING! DING! DING!

Steve said...

In the spirit of a very good man killed by tyranny may I suggest:

When they came for the old fat guys I said nothing because that was just Steve;

When they came for the Moderates, well, I said nothing because there were so few anyway;

When they came for the women teaching Hebrew, we Of Course said nothing;

When they came for the Calvinists....

Anonymous said...

"As far as the Calvinism ...no we dont see eye to eye. She is a dispensationalist and her church will not support reformed missionaries. Its a Bible Church. They are all DTS grads."

Does she subscribe to easy believism and building a church on felt needs? Would she think that Rick Warren is a great pastor?


You see, I am getting a bit sick of your trashing of Klouda on this blog and rewriting history.

So, to give you a bit of that medicine, I was a bit surprised to see you link to SECC where your mom spoke. I know they pay speakers well but they are into easy believism and building a mega on felt needs. They have a 'guest services' department for their members! Never mind that they teach baptismal regeneration.I doubt that anyone at SECC on staff or in the pew can tell you what really happened on the Cross. They are too busy marketing Jesus for profit and telling you your sins are simply mistakes.

So, is it about money or did she speak for free?


I doubt you take into consideration that Klouda's daughter might be reading your posts. I hope you will take it into consideration that it goes both ways.

I hope this makes you as uncomfortable as it makes me. Perhaps it doesn't. In any event, It is time to stop trashing Klouda. She has suffered enough. Leave her alone.



Lydia

Robert said...

Anonymous,
Not sure how you read all that into my post.

Rob from Geneva

Austin said...

Volfan007,

You are right. No doubt cuts and cost-saving measures will be made across the board at the seminary. One professor I have this semester mentioned a few weeks ago that he and a few other professors met with Dr. Patterson, and that Dr. Patterson personally asked them to pray that he and the board of directors/trustees would have wisdom in the decisions that were being made and to get ideas on how the seminary can cut costs and save money.

Given the times and what is happening that is all reasonable.

It could very well be possible that people are using that as an opportunity to spread lies about the seminary and to attempt to slander and falsely accuse a leader in the church, in this case, Dr. Patterson.

It seems to me that both a brother in the Lord and an institution are being falsely accused.

Hearsay and rumors and false reports and false accusations are nothing more than slanderous gossip and the Bible compares gossip to the sin of witchcraft.

Here, we have an accusation being made by someone who is not a professor at the seminary; who does not attend the seminary etc. etc. Scripture is clear: "19Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses." (1 Tim. 5:19).

Unless these anonymous witness or sources are willing to come forward and make their accusation public, this false accusation should NOT be entertained.

volfan007 said...

Austin,

Well said.

David

Matt said...

Wade,

A distinction needs to be made. You might be correct that whether or not your post saves jobs depends on its truthfulness (but this is only the case if Dr. Patterson chooses not to pursue his original course of action on the basis of your post). Whether or not your post "helps" others can depend on its credibility. If your post is false and some who wish for Dr. Patterson to be removed from SWBTS believe it to be true, then it "helps" them in the sense that it assassinates Dr. Patterson's character.

CB Scott said...

Well, Lydia,

This is strange. It seems we have never agreed on anything before. But now, you seem to indirectly quote me from several weeks ago.

"....It is time to stop trashing Klouda. She has suffered enough. Leave her alone."

On this we agree. May it be so.

cb

Alan Cross said...

Went back and read my comment. Blogs are terrible for passing on what you are really thinking because inflection of voice is missing.

I am saying that I cannot believe that Patterson would do this, as in, it is amazing to me that this would happen - almost beyond the realm of believability, not that I think you are making this up.

Anonymous said...

AUSTIN,

you took a little too long to say that Wade's information was 'hogwash', a little too long.

"Thou Dost Protest Too Much, Methinks"

We now have a round-robin of Pattersonian choir boys howling at Wade. You guys are too transparent. This is really fun to watch. :)

Wade Burleson said...

Austin,

I have one question for you.

How much did you give to the Sheri Klouda Benevolence fund?

She lost her job because of an ideological purge of employees who did not meet the all male standard.

Your exasperation at the prospect that such ideological purges occur hold no weight.

They do occur, they have occurred, they are occurring . . .

With a little pause due to being called out.

Blessings,

Wade

Austin said...

Wade,

Beyond tithing, I give to those God leads me to give to. I am only 26 years old and my wife is just 22. In 2008, we personally gave over $20,000 away And I'm a seminary student.

If there is anything I won't permit is someone questioning my generosity. My life and actions speak for themselves. The evidence of my faithfulness to God in my actions is what gives what I say WEIGHT.

You, sir, have challenged a young man who actually lives the life. And actions speak louder than words.

CB Scott said...

I find myself in a strange position here from time-to-time.

I disagree with Wade as to the substance of this post. I also asked what I now think is a valid question; Is the primary source of all of this still anonymous?

And now, he asks a question which I really wish he had no need to ask:

"How much did you give to the Sheri Klouda Benevolence fund?"

I'll tell you what folks: My friends, Bob and Peg Cleveland visited the Klouda home back in the summer.

Upon their testimony to me and my wife, I must say; Wade Burleson has never presented a more valid question in his life than the one he asked relating to Sheri Klouda and her family.

I would highly doubt that one person commenting here deals, on a day-to-day basis with what that family deals with right now. Now, I may be wrong about that and if I am; I pray brothers and sisters will help you as we all should have helped the Klouda family.

Wade Burleson and cb will probably be at odds theologically the rest of our lives, but about Sheri Klouda.

cb

Anonymous said...

You are right, Austin, actions speak louder than words.

MUCH LOUDER.

Did you learn that from Paige Patterson ?
His actions carry the weight of all the suffering he has caused others to bear. That is a weight he will have to carry before the throne of the Almighty. May God have mercy on all of us.

Austin said...

Actually, anonymous, I learned it from James:

James 2:14-18: "14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do."

Rex said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Dear WADE,

Like a mother who understands
what her child has not said,
the Christian people here
understand
that
which you have not said.

We know why you have not said it.
And we know you are protecting others.

You do not need to explain yourself to the Christian people here.

Your silence is wonderful to hear.

L's

Anonymous said...

Prayer to the Holy Spirit

"Help us to discern anger from pain that we may be a source of comfort to others."

May it be so.

locksmith mesa said...

good writing style..love this blog =)

Kevin M. Crowder said...

Austin,

Your boasting sickens me.

Your boasting negates your giving.

Your boasting also calls into question your integrity.

Your boasting dishonors God.

No one gives a rip how old you are or much you give. Go hit the books Mr. Seminarian with a 22 year old wife!!!!!!!


*runs to gag*



K

Anonymous said...

austin...too slow, bro! your generosity HAS been challenged...get over it. DING! DING! DING!! OHHHHH!

Anonymous said...

Dear Kevin,

Austin is young. There are things he doesn't understand yet.
Don't yell at him.

TEACH HIM

with patient kindness,
and he will learn.
He will learn.

TEACH HIM . . .

Kevin M. Crowder said...

Wade,

I found an interesting blog with a quote from a pastor/swbts student with what seems to be corroborating evidence of your closed source claim (one which does not take rocket scientist to believe is true). This pastor/student claims to have spoken with faculty which claim that meetings DID infact occur and that questions of "soteriology and church affiliation." The quote denies that the meetings were designed to fire Calvinists. (of course they were not designed that way) Duh! But that this information was being used to give to trustees at their next meeting. (I am certain you know when this meeting is.)

Road Trip???

Here is the link to the site:

click here


Obviously something is up.

This something is being masterminded by johnny hunt, the fake doctored leader of the SBC who hates Calvinists. At least Dr. Klouda has a real doctorate.

Let's all go to Louisville and fire hunt!!!!!

Road Trip!!!!!

Alan Paul said...

Austin, you have received your reward in full.

Tom Parker said...

Austin:

You said"Beyond tithing, I give to those God leads me to give to. I am only 26 years old and my wife is just 22. In 2008, we personally gave over $20,000 away And I'm a seminary student."

What a modest statement. What are you studying in seminary? Maybe you should review the chapter on being humble. Just a suggestion.

Anonymous said...

austin, please, bro, stay down...it won't be pretty...don't get up. it's over

Kevin M. Crowder said...

Tom,

I was gonna suggest he continue on in James a bit....reading on in James I got wacked in the head a few times until I found the perfect passage for him: 3:13-18

But even that passage was painful to read.

It is tough to teach and preach from James without getting bumps and bruises.

Anonymous said...

KEVIN,

This passage is beautiful.
What troubles you? L's


From St. James:
The Wisdom from Above
13 ¶ Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him show out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.

15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

CB Scott said...

Tom Parker,

Are you humble?

cb

Anonymous said...

Look out, Tom. You're about to get nailed. :-)

Anonymous said...

cb, we just went through someone claiming they are "generous"...you really expect anyone to fall for the 'are you humble' question???????

Anonymous said...

do i hear a ding, ding, ding????? ohhhhhhhhh!

Anonymous said...

Annony 2,

Poke a little harder and he'll squeel. :-)

Anonymous said...

“It is said that humility is truth. The path that will make us more like Jesus is the path of humility.”

Mother Theresa

Anonymous said...

There is story of a very humble rebbe (rabbi). It goes like this.

The rebbe went from house to house to collect money for a poor family in great need.

He knocked on the door of a very rich man and asked him to contribute.

The rich man said,
"This is what I will give you" and punched the rebbe very hard in the face, knocking him down.

The rebbe got up and, quietly wiping the blood away, said,
"That was for ME.
Now, what do you have to give to the poor family ?"

He received a contribution.

Anonymous said...

oh brother...are we off topic or what??

CB Scott said...

No, nobody gets nailed on that one.

The truth is that humility and blogging on Baptist blog sites do not mix well.Maybe there are a few humble bloggers among us.

Maybe David Rogers, Micah Fries. There was Dorcas Hawker. She was truly humble. Wes Kenney always showed a degree of humility.

Then, Nathan Finn comes to mind.

But, as for the rest of us. Humble is not really our strong suit. Don't you agree, Tom?

I was just making a point.

cb

Anonymous said...

Abraham Lincoln's take on humility:

"During the American Civil war, President Lincoln had a strapping atheletic young man as his secretary. In those days before office machinery, such a man would literally be pushing a pen or pencil. This particular man was not happy about it. He wanted to get out where the action was on the battlefield. He wanted to go and do great things for his country. He was quite willing to die if necessary. So he kept on complaining about the work he was doing, when he could be in uniform confronting the enemy.

After hearing the usual complaint one day, Lincoln stared at him, rubbed his hands in his beard and said in his philosophical way,

“Young man as I see it, you are quite willing to die for your country, but you are not willing to live for it.”

Billy said...

Wes Kenney humble?

To the degree Barack Obama is a Republican.

Anonymous said...

I never knew that money given to a cause was to be posted as a matter of defense of one's character and thus gives ground to reject another's careful confrontation on a matter if they did not contribute. Don't honest prayers for EVEYONE in these matter mean something?

CB Scott said...

Well, Billy,

That is good news. Now maybe President Obama will not sign FOCA:-)

If you don't agree to Wes; what about the others I mentioned? Is Nathan Finn humble?

And again, I was just making a point. I am sure there are others, but the rest of us, well...you know.:-)

cb

Anonymous said...

HUMILITY ?

CB Scott wrote, "But, as for the rest of us. Humble is not really our strong suit"

We noticed this.
At Christmas, which celebrates the humble birth of Lord Jesus in a stable, surrounded by animals;

we find the Pattersons resplendantly residing at the Manor, rolling in food, and rejoicing with six Christmas trees. (you have to see the video)

Yeah. No idea at all about humility. Never understood it.
Couldn't figure it out.

Just between you and me, I think that poor stable had more class than Pecan Manor.

CB Scott said...

The One in the stable was the only truly humble one among all.

I am glad it was such. In the presence of the humble One we all see our need to repent of the complete absence of humility in our lives.


cb

Robert said...

Can we all sing Kumbah ya Now!

Anonymous said...

FROM C.S. LEWIS

on humility


"'You come of the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve,' said Aslan. 'And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor in earth.'"

--Prince Caspian

Robert said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Robert, are you inebriated ?

Robert said...

no trying a little php coding sorry!

Anonymous said...

WADE wrote:

"Frankly, I am not as bothered by an ideological, independent, Landmark Baptist President's desire to remove Calvinists as I am his removal of a female Hebrew professor or his attempts to remove SBC missionaries who pray with a private prayer language. If you Calvinists are unwilling to protect the latter, then don't scream when they come after your brothers."

BRAVO !

CB Scott said...

See.

Thank you Robert.

There is nothing like instant proof:-)

cb

Anonymous said...

We love you anyway, Robert. :)

Rex Ray said...

Kevin Crowder,
You really know how to show a guy that he’s been ignored.

What I’m referring to is your statement:

“I found an interesting blog with a quote from a pastor/swbts student with what seems to be corroborating evidence of your closed source claim…”

Your “here” is Darrin’s link to the same source that I gave five hours and sixteen minutes earlier.

But then, why should I pick on you because no one else mentioned of responding to the link either.

Also, coming from you might be more credible than from one that believed Wade from the start.

Credible? What am I talking about? Two hours after you posted “here”, no one has mentioned that “here” backs up Wade’s post.

All that’s been said is off post… ‘Yada, yada, yada.’

So I’ll join them by referring to a young man that has endured ridicule with adoring silence.

I haven’t cared for his stand against Wade, but would you have made fun of him if he had given all that money to Klouda as he was asked?

Probably not.

Was he supposed to keep his light under a bushel? Strange when giving to the Lord is ridiculed for not giving it to an individual.

Anonymous said...

I think they are all jealous of his generosity. Maybe they didn't want him to get 'pride-full'.
In any case, he's just a kid. 26 ?

Anonymous said...

Goodness. Were we all ever that young ?

Robert said...

I think you are all just bitter old men!!!!!

B Nettles said...

I like Harry Callahan's version of humility: "A man has got to know his limitations."

As one who has been in Baptist higher ed for over 25 years, I can tell you that some of the background dealings in such places 'ain't' pretty. Many times, the boards do exactly what the president wants, without question. Any faculty member who even asks a question is labelled as disloyal and a troublemaker. If you haven't been 'inside,' you couldn't make up some of the stuff I've seen.

Graciously, God has allowed me to see a wonderful school, too, with a wonderful administration. This past year has been a marvel.

David,
Believe me that some hires are made based on scholarship with the hope that doctrine will change. I know. Come visit me in Jackson some day and I'll share. I will NOT blog it.

B Nettles said...

None of that in my previous comment should be taken to mean I know anything about the specifics of SWBTS and Wade's post.

I'm just saying that your doubt that such things might happen somewhere would not hold up. They have, and until Rev. 21, will continue.

happy gram said...

:)

Wade Burleson said...

To all my readers:

I would like everyone to pay attention to the content and time of this particular comment: Wednesday night, 11:44 p.m. Central Time, February 4, 2009 (the actual comment time stamp runs two hours ahead for posting reasons).

The Frisco Baptst Association's Evangelism Conference (Oklahoma)held tonight, Wednesday, February 9, 2009 had Paige Patterson as their main speaker. Several preacher boys, led by Wesley Kenney, asked Dr. Patterson to accompany them to dinner so that Wes could "interview" Dr. Patterson about several things, but primarily my two recent blog posts.

Of course, one should expect a denial that there was any talk of removing Calvinist staff and professors from SWBTS faculty. In fact, there will specific attempts to discredit my posts. Wes Kenney, the close friend of Jerry Corbaley, has taken it upon himself to try to discredit everything I have written, beginning three years ago. Time and time again he has been proven wrong, and the veracity of my posts have stood the test of time.

Buckle your seat belts everybody. I've hit a sore spot at SWBTS and the guns are coming out blazing.

I've already been called a "wild-eyed liberal" by Bart Barber, an adjunct at SWBTS. I've already been warned by several people that the attempts to discredit me have already being taken to a new level by those at SWBTS. And, of course, several died in the wool defenders of SWBTS have come on this blog and accused me of everything short of assassinating JFK.

I'm used to it.

My sources are really, really good.

And I'm not afraid to let people know what is being said.

In His Grace,

Wade

P.S. I hope you boys enjoyed the dinner.

Wes Kenney said...

These false accusations have been addressed directly by Dr. Patterson in an interview conducted on Wednesday night, February 4. The interview can be heard at SBC Today.

New BBC Open Forum said...

I think of Wade every time I see this commercial. :-)

New BBC Open Forum said...

The guy in the "yella" hat...

Anonymous said...

"...Frankly, I am not as bothered by an ideological, independent, Landmark Baptist President's desire to remove Calvinists as I am his removal of a female Hebrew professor..."

Speaking of which, there use to be another female professor in the O.T. department around the same timeframe as the Hebrew Prof. Does anyone know what happened to her? I think she was a part-time professor getting her PhD at the time.

Can't Hide said...

Wow, Wes, riddle me this one. How was it that Rev. Burleson knew of your little interview before you posted it?

Just got done listening to it all.

Yawn. Nice try, but you whiffed.

Anonymous said...

Dr. Bullock was her name.

Canned. Won't talk about it. Probation given to SWBTS by the national accreditation team because they suspected she was ousted because of her gender. Speaking of which, now that the Klouda lawsuit is over, the accreditation group is coming back to SWBTS with a little fire in their eyes. They don't think of SWBTS as a church like the good judge of Fort Worth.

Wade Burleson said...

Can't Hide,

Please sign your name. I am close to forbiding open URL's and anonymous comments because of anonymity. You may not agree with what is being done, but please stand behind your words by letting people know who has spoken them. I'm also sure you are not the Wes you show in you profile.

Wade Burleson said...

By the way, to answer your question, I have a number of friends who don't mind informing me what is said around the dinner table.

Wade Burleson said...

New BBC Forum,

That's funny.

Thanks.

Not a bad guy to be compared to if you ask me.

debbiekaufman said...

Yes Wes, the interview certainly says alot. :) It tells the real agenda.

Wes Kenney said...

Man, I missed dinner? I hate it when that happens.

Oh, wait, there was no dinner. "Several preacher boys"? Really, really good sources indeed...

:)

By the way, nice trick with the time stamp there. The "preemptive" comment did not exist before my comment linking to the "dinner" interview.

WatchingHISstory said...

Wade

here is a good reason to forbid open URL's and anonymous comments

Anonymous said... (she is a faceless and nameless coward)
Is it getting too hot for you? All this Fire and Brimstone talk and you being the closet homo. One picture is worth a thousand words. Right? You would be surprised at how many people have hidden cameras. Have you been some place you shouldn't have been? I know the truth. Your friends don't

February 2, 2009 8:55 PM

debbiekaufman said...

The agenda used is unlimited atonement. Quote from Paige:"Southwestern will not build a school in the future where anyone can look another in the eye and not be able to say that Christ died for your sins."

TULIP. What does the U stand for Wes? Rumor? No, I don't think so.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Transcript of the part of the interview that's relevant to this topic...

Interviewer: "I've been asked recently about a rumor that these economic challenges have been used as an excuse uh... to weed out certain professors at Southwestern who hold to a soteriological viewpoint with which you disagree. Is there any truth to that rumor?"

Paige Patterson: "Ummm... eh you... you know... eh uh... I certainly hope not. Uhhh... eh uh... eh... I've lived my entire life... of life in a goldfish bowl... and... as boldly as I know how to do it. Uhhh... we're not certain at all that we're going to have to eliminate any professor. We have been working very, very hard to... ummm... to cut everything else in the world so we don't have to cut professors and... uh... we don't know yet what we're gonna have to do, but we... we're hopeful that we don't have to cut any professors. If we do... ummm... I will not use a... uhhh... screen... uh... to do that with. Ummm... if if if... every decision that I make regarding faculty would be made with a view to assisting the school to be the best school it possibly can be. Ummm... we have every conceivable soteriological view on the campus... uhhh... in terms of five points of Calvinism. We have one-pointers, two-pointers, three-pointers, four-pointers, and five-pointers. Uhhh... I will say this. Uhhh... Southwestern will not build a school in the future around anybody who could not look anybody in the world in the eyes and say, "Christ died for your sins." If there is a problem there, then I believe there's a problem that Southern Baptists would not want to fund.

Interviewer: "True."

Paige Patterson: "And so uhhh... uhhh... that would be case, but I wouldn't be hidin' behind a screen of economic matters... if I had to deal with that.

Interviewer: "Sure."

Paige Patterson: "And uhhh... uh... God willing... ummm... if He's gracious to us... God's people continue to give... maybe we won't have to lay off anybody else."

Interviewer: "That's what we're prayin' for. Yes."

So his answer to the question was, "I hope not"? Wow.

debbiekaufman said...

This is what I get for tying late at night. Let's start again.

Wes, the agenda is limited atonement. TULIP, What does the L stand for Wes. Quote from Paige, see my last comment above. Rumor? No. It isn't.

Tim said...

Pastor Wade,

I am thankful that you are addressing the issues with Southwestern. Many policies following the "Conservative Resurgence" have left the seminaries largely irrelevant. Education is now indoctrination and exploration of different ideas is discouraged.

I had a friend who is very conservative, a Southeastern graduate, say that he was extremely disappointed in his education at Southeastern.

Furthermore, PhD's from these schools are mocked in the wider academic circles, not because of being conservative, but their methodology for academic study. It is obvious to the rest of academia, students, and others that so-called scholars at these schools are defending a tradition rather than doing academic research.

One example, Southeastern is beginning a PhD program in Leadership, that can be done off campus. No PhD done away from residency is worth the paper that it is written on. Who do they think that they are fooling?

Finally, as you have suggested before, how much more narrow will the doctrinal parameters become, and who is next for exclusion? Are the Calvinists next?

Anonymous said...

Way too much dilecticism this blog lately. I never have understood that Arminian vs. Calvin debate. Modern applications in ecclesiology on Calvinism don't really apply his ideas they way he did. It follows more a Presbyterian methodology. Calvin asserted such a "presybterian" authority when allowing Anabaptists to drown for fear of heresy that could lead men away fromt the faith (which is a legitimate fear but some sort civil restraining order could have been effective as well). Arminian views tend to support a liberational view that ask questions later. Dispensational views that came later sort of tried to work out the inconsistencies between the two views. American ideas on civil government somewhat flow from the Reformation. Postmodernism seems to be throwing a monkey wrench into everything. I just pray for all parties in involved!

Anonymous said...

Tim,

You are mistaken. SEBTS has had an exceptional faculty for quite some time. Many schools may have slightly different appproaches to scolarship, but Southeastern's appraoch has followed its missision to train ministers of the Gospel. THAT is the goal. BTW, unless you've attended there yourself, I would advise not taking the view of one individual alumnus.

No dissappointment here, nor in many exceptional scholars that Southeastern has produced. Have you heard of Nathan Finn?

Anonymous said...

We need to go back to the idea of "opnen" councils as well which is biblical.

Tom Parker said...

Tim Rogers:

What is it like to get to post a comment on someone else's blog without being censored; that is being blocked from posting your comment. Some of us do not have that luxury with you. What are you afraid of?

As I attempted to post on your blog--You are a very divisive person!!! But you do not like to be challenged. Do you remember mine and your conversation around Christmas time 2008. Have you changed your mind on your position that you took?

Joe Blackmon said...

Tim

I feel certain that the Christians that serve at seminaries like SEBTS lose quite a bit of sleep over what "scholars" like those at Wake Forrest, Mercer, and Duke (all seminaries that allow homosexuals to enroll and support the idea of female pastors) think. I don't know what the body of Christ would do without some of the professors at those schools who tell us that the Bible is just a bunch of fairy tales and should not be relied upon. Thank goodness for their godly influence.

Tom Parker said...

Joe Blackmon:

I'm not sure about your last comment. Do you really think there are no homosexuals or lesbians that are in the SBC seminaries? Do you think that there might not be one or two SBC seminarians that believe that a woman can be a pastor. Also, if you are going to say that some teach the Bible is a fairy tale at certain schools, you ought to name names.

Your comment is way out of line. I hope you will reconsider your comment. I expect better from you.

Joe Blackmon said...

Tom

I'll give you the "fairy tales" thing. That was hyperbole. There are seminaries with professors taht hold to the position that the Bible isn't literally accurate in all that it intends to convey. Now I'm not talking about Old Age Earthers. I mean people who deny that Daniel was written prior to the events it records and is therefore not prophecy or that there was no literal resurrection of Christ. These ideas have been in liberal seminaries for years.

Also, I wasn't saying there are no homosexuals or lesbians (why the two catagories? Have you ever thought about that? I mean, all lesbians are by definition homosexuals, right?) in SBC seminaries. I wasn't really clear on that but the seminaries I mentioned (Duke, Mercer, Wake Forrest) admit students that are openly homosexual. Someone cannot be homoscxual and Christian.

I will admit that I don't know of any SBC seminaries that support the idea of female pastors but you could be right that there are individuals at the seminaries that hold to an egalitarian point of view. I was saying the Seminaries as a whole do not as far as I understand.

Does any of that clarify better what I meant? I may not be able to check back til later on today so if you write back and I don't respond I hope you'll undertsand. Can you say OMB Circular A-133? I knew you could.

Press on toward that high calling....

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