"I went to Jerusalem to become acquainted (Gk. istoria) with Cephas" - Paul's words from Galatians 1:18.

Kudos to Dr. Chuck Kelley, President of NOBTS

Grace and Truth to You is not afraid to point out what we believe to be decisions that negatively affect the SBC mission efforts or reflect poorly on our desire to expand the kingdom of Christ. On the other hand, Grace and Truth to You desires to give credit to those SBC leaders who either by example or decision making set the standard for Christian leadership in the SBC. Southern Baptist agencies, particularly our seminaries, have recently announced budget cuts for 2009 in order to keep expenses in line with falling revenues. We have criticized some for sending the wrong message with the the wrong kind of budgetary cuts, cuts that affect morale and display no administrative leadership, but today we wish to congragulate a Southern Baptist seminary president for excellent decision making.

Baptist Press reports that New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary must cut over $1,000,000 dollars from the budget next year. Dr. Chuck Kelley, President of NOBTS responded to the financial crisis at the seminary, according to BP, in the following manner:

Kelley's plan calls for a 5 percent salary reduction for all faculty and staff members except those who lose medical coverage. The salaries of senior administrators will be reduced by 7 percent. Kelley will receive a 10 percent reduction in salary.

Well done Dr. Kelley. Since your President's salary is the highest salary (as it ought to be), had you simply taken a 7 percent cut, which would have been in line with the cuts of other administrative salaries, you would have received the largest salary reduction in terms of dollar amount. But, you went further. You cut your salary by 3 percentage points more than any other person's salary on the payroll. Your dollar amount reduction will be quite large - significantly larger than anyone else at NOBTS.

We Southern Baptists commend you, Dr. Kelley, for the leadership you have exhibited and the character you have displayed in making such a tough decision.

Well done.

Here's hoping everyone's salaries at NOBTS are fully restored shortly. Were your kind of leadership to be displayed our Convention, our SBC churches would find it very hard to withhold any Cooperative Program funds during tough economic times.

May it be so.

In His Grace,


Wade

104 comments:

Thy Peace said...

NYT: Despite Rise in Profit, FedEx Imposes Some Cuts in Pay and Pensions

FedEx said new measures included a 20 percent base salary decrease for the chief executive, Frederick W. Smith, and pay cuts of 7.5 to 10 percent for other senior executives as of Jan. 1. All other salaried personnel in the United States will have a 5 percent pay cut.

It's good to see Christians follow some secular businesses in this regard. We should note here that the fedex CEO base salary is $1.5M. So he will not miss 20% reduction that much.

Anonymous said...

DR. KELLEY, A GOOD SHEPHERD

"I am the Good Shepherd.
The good shepherd
lays down his life
for the sheep."

The Good Shepherd went to be slaughtered so that His sheep would be spared.

Dr. Kelley is an example of shepherd denying himself for those in his care.
And at an SBC seminary, too.
Dr. Kelley might set the standard for Christ-like leadership at SBC seminaries, since there is no one else who is willing or able to follow the way of the Lord.

Rex Ray said...

Wade,
Good to hear that SOME Baptists Seminaries practice ‘tightening their belts’ starting at the TOP.

An example was our retired pastor of not accepting his offered salary, but took only about half of it. With the ‘savings’, the church hired a youth director.

When my wife was young, she knew a pastor that preached the ten percent belonged to the pastor and the church was to run on the ‘offerings’.

I believe those that pound the pulpit with “Will you rob God?’ are trained more in ‘fleecing’ than feeding.

I’ve always believed the ten percent was the poor man’s burden and the rich man’s cop-out.

Kevin in Manila said...

I graduated from NOBTS, and I have tremendous respect and admiration for Dr. Kelley.

John Daly said...

"We have criticized," do you have a blog staff now? :)

Dr. Kelley is simply leading by example. I'm sure he did it without fan-fare and surely doesn't expect any praise. Let all of us do likewise.

Anonymous said...

Over the years, have accepted the call to two churches where I would earn $20,000 fewer dollars--but did so knowing the Lord was in it and that He'd make up the difference, which He did.

This year, gave back to our church's budget $5000 from salary package due to expected shortfalls--resulting in a raise for 2009 of $400. Again, the Lord can make up the difference--and some elsewhere have gotten less, I'm sure.

Senior pastors and other executives must set the example, not just the pace. Otherwise, expect a minimum of "followership" from fellow staff and other members.

Anonymous said...

Seems like a much kinder (and sensible) solution than firing a bunch of people, especially when in most cases when the solution chosen is firing people to cut expenses those fired are not the ones who caused the need for cutbacks.

Susie

Anonymous said...

Amen, Wade. Thank you for getting this good word out. Not sure what that actually comes out to, and I'm sure that it is way more than many others make, but it is a good example and good leadership. How 'bout that? A leader that leads!

Anonymous said...

"We should note here that the fedex CEO base salary is $1.5M. So he will not miss 20% reduction that much."

Thy Peace. The CEO will miss his reduction MORE than anyone else. Not less.

That is a $300,000 reduction if my math is correct.

And it is.

This excellent example by him would be hard to not follow if I were his employee.

Just as it is with Kelley.

SL1M

Mara Reid said...

Thank you Wade for sharing this.

Some of us who are outside of the SBC, yet call many baptist of all flavors our friends are concerned with what troubles SBC. It's nice to see something positive. It reminds us of what we already know. In spite of the negative in some places of leadership, there are still many good and wonderful people serving Jesus within SBC.

May God bless SBC.

Joe Blackmon said...

That, in auditing and accounting, is what we call setting "the tone at the top". Leading by example, he is. Applaud him, we should.

Ok, I'm going to stop speaking like Yoda now.

Anonymous said...

καὶ τὸ φῶς ἐν τῇ σκοτίᾳ φαίνει, καὶ ἡ σκοτία αὐτὸ οὐ κατέλαβεν

a tiny spark of light
from a Christian soul
can bring an end to
the 'Dark Night's' reign

Sometimes it just takes one person to turn things around.
All the condemnation of the Pattersons' excesses did not do
what this one single act by Dr. Kelley has done:
give HOPE back to the church that the light of Christ was not extinguished by the darkness.

First one person,
then another one person,
and another,
and another . . .

The Holy Spirit is at work in
Dr. Kelley.

And the fruit is sweet to behold.

Alan Paul said...

Kudos to Dr. Kelley for leading by example and being willing to trust God instead of his salary as I see and hear so many leaders do. Good servant-leadership on his part.

Anonymous said...

Rex said 'I’ve always believed the ten percent was the poor man’s burden and the rich man’s cop-out.'

I agree. The whole 'flat-tax' thing would have been a real
boon-doggle for the rich. Thank God the rest of us saw through it.
People are not THAT dumb.

Anonymous said...

In seeing Dr. Kelley's example,
it comes to mind that MAYBE the Pattersons were so obnoxious because they WANTED people to get upset and to try to 'pay them off' and get rid of them.

If you contrast the Pattersons with Dr. Kelley, there IS no comparison.

I think the Pattersons will continue their excesses until it is SO BAD that people will do anything to get the Pattersons hands out of the cookie jar: even to go so far as paying them off and sending them away with a glorious 'golden parachute' benefits package.
And, you know what? It might be worth it.

You heard it hear first. :)

Stephen said...

Good to hear of folks like Dr. Kelley. There is hope.

Anonymous said...

Luke 9:23-25

23
Then he said to all, "If anyone wishes to come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily 11 and follow me.
24
For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it.
25
What profit is there for one to gain the whole world yet lose or forfeit himself?

Anonymous said...

Ten percent.
Like a tithe.

Like a seed planted.
And God will nurture that seed.

What can God do with ten percent?
Would Dr. Kelley be surprised?

Very likely, he might not be.
In faith, he knows what God can do.

With an offering from one's self
For the benefit of the others.


In the cold darkness
of the SBC's winter
Some holy warmth has come.

M. Steve Heartsill said...

As a NOBTS grad, this is just another example of a good decision made by our president. He truly does lead by example. A rare trait these days...

Anonymous said...

I am impressed with the act of sacrifice by Dr. Kelley even though I know very little about him.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous who spoke so critical of the Patterson's. If you are going to borderline libel someone at least be big enough to SIGN YOUR NAME!!!! What is "you heard it here first. ") What is that supposed to mean? Does that identify you? There is a word for you but I can't remember what it is but its probably would,nt be nice anyway. Anonymous with a name. Jim Sadler

Anonymous said...

I have assumed, and will continue to assume, that all of the SBC institutions and agencies are doing the best they can to deal with the financial difficulties.

As I have said in response to those who criticized some budget decisions in other places as being wrong - I am not in a position to judge those decisions based on the information that I have.

Nor am I able to Judge whether the budget at NOBTS is a wise decision financially.

I do not know what Dr. Kelley makes, I don't know how much the cut equates to (in a budget the size of NOBTS, it probably provides an insignificant amount, but I am guessing), and I know really nothing about what options the Trustees had.

Symbolically, it is a good gesture. And I would assume that it indicates Dr. Kelley is a giving person, but I can't say that with any knowledge, nor can I say that others who have not followed suit are not giving people.

Still, a great story.

Louis

Anonymous said...

Baloney.

No one has to 'expose' your friends.

The Pattersons have been VERY OPEN about their extravagances, even going so far as to produce that Christmas Video, all the while knowing what was coming for so many of the ones they should have cared for.

If they didn't want people to see all that, would they have FLAUNTED IT ? Which THEY DID.
Whose libeling? IT'S ON FILM.

They OPENLY exposed their extravagances. Then they OPENLY dealt with the day-care, the firings, the loss of benefits, and on and on. AND they did it with great attention to the contrast it presented to those under their authority and to the rest of the SBC. Don't tell me it was 'thoughtless' on their part.

In a case like this, the Pattersons put themselves gloriously and materially on display. Whatever their motives were, the results had to be insulting and hurtful to those under their authority whose lives were deeply affected by the financial crunch.

As for YOU. Why aren't you speaking for the ones who were hurt? There IS something slanderous about defending those who benefit while others suffer.
The Pattersons don't need your support. They are doing 'just fine'. Watch the Christmas video Wade provided a few posts ago.
Read the credits at the end of the film. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

It's the others at SWBTS who needed some support. But, no. It wasn't to be had. There wasn't enough money left for them.
No, your argument doesn't make
any 'cents' . Next case.

Anonymous said...

Louis said 'Symbolically, it is a good gesture. And I would assume that it indicates Dr. Kelley is a giving person, but I can't say that with any knowledge, nor can I say that others who have not followed suit are not giving people.'

someone please tell me,
why am i laughing ?

Rob said...

Wade,
Slander/defamation is a Christian virtue that you encourage at your church? If not maybe you out to practice church discipline.
Please see this comment on Dr Kear blog

Dr. Mike Kear said...

Rob,

This is a Christian blog and so we do not allow racism. I have deleted your comment for that reason.

Is that how you practice Grace Dr Kear?

Honestly I dont see much Grace in your original response.
If you had removed both my name and your comment then the I would not sent that email.

Instead you prefer the way of hate by leaving only your response.ie cyber-lynching.

notice that at NO time did I ask you to leave up my post!!!!!

Rob Masters

Anonymous said...

Rob,

Are you related to Robert I. Masters ?

Rob said...

Anonymous,
Yes Iam Robert I Masters

Anonymous said...

While Dr. Kelley & I don't always agree theologically, he has always been an honest and Godly leader at NOBTS. Several (pre-Katrina) years ago when my husband was a student there, the trustees offered to make upgrades to the president's house. The president's house is nice, but not a mansion by any means. Dr. Kelley would not allow it and said that nothing would be done to his house until all of the needed upgrades were done to professors' & students' housing.

That's a servant leader.

Anonymous said...

It looks like Dr. Kelley really cares about his people. Yes.
whatever his doctrinal positions, he has the core values that Christ taught about service to others.
Thanks for sharing about Dr. Kelley. Very encouraging to people that called about the moral tone of the SBC.

Anonymous said...

Correction: 'that care about the moral tone of the SBC' :)

Anonymous said...

Rob.
Thanks for helping me make my point.

I should now re-post this as "If You're Racist, You're a Rob"

Seth Mcbee

http://contendearnestly.blogspot.com/

Thanks for pertuating Slander Seth.
I am sure you are proud Dr Kears

Rob Masters

Anonymous said...

Rob,

When you posted as Robert I. Masters, we did not detect that you had gone over to the 'reconstructionist' a.k.a.
'Dominionist' point of view of people like Rushdooney.

Are you THE original Robert I. Masters OR are you his son?

Do you REALLY support Rushdooney's beliefs ?

Kevin M. Crowder said...

A bit of perspective might be in order. Dr. Kelley leads a seminary who is deeply indebted to the good graces of the people of the SBC who generously helped to bring back the campus, provide for the needs of the students, etc, etc, etc. This act of his not only is good for employee and seminary community moral, but it also sends a HUGE thank you to the laborers and disaster relief volunteers around the Convention.

As for Dr. Patterson, sure I think he might appear to be a tad extravagant, but is that not what Texas is all about? Great organizations are built on a tradition of excellence. Dr. Patterson's vision may not be my own, but I have, along with the seemingly bad, heard of a host of good things like he and Mrs. Patterson's generosity to a host of students over the years. So he hires 2 chefs? Would we that he fire them and put their families out in the cold? All Dr. Patterson needs to do is weather the storm. There are plenty of Southern Baptists who line up with him theologically and ecclesiastically. And since we have six seminaries, they deserve to have one to call their own. Those folks will be impressed by the dog and pony show of Pecan Manor. And quite frankly, and eventually, enrollment will return as the stability of the Seminary comes in step with its new "tradition of excellence."

As for Dr. Mohler, no one on earth is more dedicated to the success of Southern than he. In fact the Seminary and College are bursting at the seams. I do not know of another Seminary in the world so greatly esteemed than Southern and whose doctoral program is so strong. The idea of asking Dr. Mohler to take a cut in pay when Southern is hardly in peril is a bit insulting. I am going to guess that Southern's present issues stem only from their large endowments. An issue to quickly resolve itself one can only hope. If one takes into account the size of Southern and their cuts, compared to SWBTS, the comparison is apples to oranges.

So, in closing, Dr. Kelley indeed is to be commended, but the duplicity of some of the comments here which are negative toward the other Seminary Presidents is imo a tad naive.


K

Anonymous said...

Kevin wrote,

"As for Dr. Patterson, sure I think he might appear to be a tad extravagant, but is that not what Texas is all about? Great organizations are built on a tradition of excellence."

A tad extravagant: bull
Texas: more bull
traditions of excellence: bull x 10



This is NOT a worldly 'great organization' but it IS a Christian Seminary that SERVES the Kingdom of God.

TEXAS: if your braggin about that 'state' that says 'it's a whole 'nother country', you are right. It is.
Texas is NOT a part of our democracy: it says in its state constitution that our country is a 'Christian Nation' and that is NOT the USA.
TEXAS sends out some great people, like 'W' for which Americans will never forgive Texas

'a tad' extravagant?
How many people did Patterson have to lay off, fire, or cut benefits for, in order to keep his own show going over at the "manor"
This is one of the MOST SHABBY,
LOW CLASS, UN HOLY, EXAMPLES
of a materialistic leader on record. No class at all.

SHAME on the use of seminary funds for extravagance while closing a much-needed day care center and harming staff by cuts of benefits.

What a disgusting performance.
Makes me sick.

debbiekaufman said...

Kevin: Would you rather he fire professors and put them out in the cold? That is the alternative.

Chris said...

Kudos to a man who is willing to put others before himself. Kudos to a man who is willing to improve the living conditions of others before he lets his own home be touched. Kudos to a man with a heart for God.

Kevin M. Crowder said...

Of course not Debbie, I, like you, consider the office of teacher to be much more deserving of compassion than a lousy ol' cook.

In fact, I think we should fire all the cooks, janitors, grass mowers, painters, maintenance men, and them darned female data entry clerks so that our prized teachers can keep their jobs.


Somebody's gotta sleep outside Deb...but the ship still has to sail.


Who or what gets cut is not up to us. The day care at SW'ern is non sequitur in this case for we all know it would have gone regardless. Cute will be made according to the priorities of those in charge. And at the end of the semester, diplomas will still be handed out and the sun will still rise over Japan in the morning.

All I know is that if my church cuts one more staff member, I am the first to go. :)

Alan Paul said...

Off subject, but to those of you that argued with me on the post concerning Haggard that Wade posted as to whether or not we should allow folks like him back into our good graces too soon:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090124/ap_on_re/rel_haggard_new_allegations

I guarantee you there are many more people out there with stories like this guy's - just a matter of time...

Anonymous said...

I don't know all the details about PP and his big house, etc etc...

But I would say the anonymous person who has so much bitterness against PP above has much more to worry about with himself than PP has to worry about.

What a terrible existence to be living a supposedly Christian life and yet have so much hatred toward someone else.

I really don't think it's even possible.

Either anonymous above is not a christian or they don't really hate PP that much.

So sad. For PP? Sure. In some matters it looks that way.

But very sad for you too.

SL1M

Anonymous said...

slm1:"king of the guilt trips." that one made me wanna get the violin out...

Tommy M. said...

Prayer for today: "Lord, please bless Dr. Kelley for his leadership and willing sacrifice. Please bless Dr. Patterson. Please bless the anonymous person who rants against Dr. Patterson. You are the God who sees all things including the human heart. We are all laid bare before you. Lastly, may we be a blessing to you. In Christ name and for His sake, amen." Tommy M.

Thy Peace said...

Off Topic:

Ron McGowin and Emily Hunter McGowin are no longer employed at Liberty Heights Church. I have followed Emily's blog for a while. I am saddened to hear about this news. I do not know what happened at Liberty Heights Church. I sincerely pray for Our Lord Jesus Christ to guide Ron and Emily's steps.

A Hymn for God's People
"Ronnie and I are no longer employed by Liberty Heights Church. I'm not going to give details as to why, so please don't ask. This blog is not a place for discussions like that. Suffice it to say, we are confident in our decision, though deeply saddened by leaving. Even as I've faced the challenges these recent events present for us, I am also aware of the challenges before the people of God at LHC. God is good and he cares for his flock. I pray that Jesus would be lifted up among them. As I've prayed for them, the following hymn is brought to mind. May God's grace abound. "

Final Blog...
"Well, if you haven’t heard by now, I’m sure that you will soon. As of Wednesday, January 22, 2009, I resigned as the Student Pastor of Liberty Heights Church. I know this comes as a shock to many of you. For that, I am truly sorry."

Libery Heights Church

Anonymous said...

Sl1m accused a 'ranter' of hate.

Slim you are on the wrong side of this battle. You worship at the feet of the powerful ones and look down on the plight of the ones who are suffering.

SLIM: learn to condemn the message IF YOU DARE.

Attacking the 'ranter' won't work.
Patterson WAS the MESSENGER slim.
HE made the video.
HE made the decisions to take from the staff.
He put the whole thing out there.
He did it in an 'in your face' kind of arrogance and you know it Slim.

I don't understand you attacking the 'ranter' unless YOU have a dog in this fight. Are YOU connected financially with Patterson? If so. that would explain your support of what he did to the SWBTS staff.

I suspect the 'ranter' is upset at what PP did NOT do for his staff in the light of what he DID do for his own extravagant gain.

Anonymous said...

To Sl1m

Slim, do real 'Christians' stand aside and watch PP throw the SWBTS staff under the bus ?

Or do they take PP aside and point out to him his OWN situation?
That those funds he kept for himself could have been used to help them?

PP has behaved like a child, keeping the big part of a cake for himself and throwing the crumbs to the other children. He didn't learn in kindergarten how to 'share'. He didn't learn in Sunday School how to serve others first.
He needs your counsel, Sl1m , to learn what was not taught to him.

PP will answer to the ONE who is really the overseer of the seminary and it would be very Christian indeed to wake this guy up before it's too late.

PP needs to rethink his priorities.
I, ME, MY, and MINE is not the priority in a Christian setting: never was , never will be.

SLIM: maybe you could do the Christian thing and warn PP so that he has a chance to repent, give the money back, ask forgiveness of those he has neglected and harmed, and make peace with his Lord.
How's that for a commission?
So Slim: get to work, you have a soul to care for: PP . And we know you, of all people, can do the job. :)

Anonymous said...

Dr. Kelley's consideration for his staff is compassionate. He is sharing in the difficulties they are going through. He is WITH THEM in it, not 'OVER THEM' and above their troubles.

In the military, the best leaders are in there with their men, not standing on the sidelines, safe, while the men take the hits.

Leadership: leaders are out front.
With those who follow.
Dr. Kelley is a compassion leader.

What a great lesson he has taught the students at NOBTS by his own Christian compassion.
God Bless Dr. Kelley, and may ALL who serve our SBC seminary students learn from his example.

Tom Parker said...

spotomenSlim and Kevin:

Have you guys ever really studied and read about the CR. Have either of you heard of Bold Mission Thrust? BMT was very important before 1979 but not after 1979. Why? Lot's of people's lives were ruined forever by PP and others in the takeover. Please think about that word--"takeover."

To question someone's actions--such as PP--is not necessarily to hate them.

PP's actions and Dr. Kelley's actions speak for themselves.

Tom Parker said...

Previous comment:

Have no idea how this happened:

spotomenSlim and Kevin:

It was intended to say To:

Slim and Kevin

Anonymous said...

TOM wrote:

"Lot's of people's lives were ruined forever by PP and others in the takeover."

Yes.

We see that here.

Think about all the 'ruined lives' of those who blog here supporting PP's destructive behaviors.
Do some names come to mind?

Think about the 'ruined lives' of all those who stood quietly and watched what happened without doing the 'Christian' thing and calling PP to account, to repentence, and to asking forgiveness of those who he hurt, and to making restitution for their suffering and to seeking God's forgiveness.

Think about the 'ruined lives' of those who WERE Christian but then fell into the abyss by worshipping at the altar of the Lord of the Manor.

Think about all those who now believe that 'short term expediency' of treating others badly under the guise of 'playing hardball' is ACCEPTABLE. That the 'ends' justified the 'means'?

But, sadly, the most ruined of all:
those in seminaries who are exposed and contaminated and some poisoned by the teachings and examples of the 'takeover' Lords.
These young people never had a chance, did they? Some of them must live in great confusion because some of them may still feel the call of Christ to care about others.

The 'ruined'.

It wasn't just the initial people who were targeted who were the 'ruined'. Once their destruction began, the Takeover Lords couldn't control the damage.

The 'ruined' include all who got down on their knees before the Takeover Lords,
and cheering loudly, watched;
OR WORSE: quietly, quietly,
quietly watched
as those considered 'unworthy' were being sacrificed.
Having sold their ruined souls
to the service of the Takeover Lords,
the 'ruined' now stand ready
to serve their Earthly Masters.

But it ain't over yet.
Stay tuned for Parts IV, V, and VI, wherein
the Jedi Knights of Christ defeat the clones of the Takeover Lords.

And may the Force be with them. :)

Thy Peace said...

Off Topic:

Since this post's comments are coming in slowly ...

Geniuses Are Leading Our World Astray..... "I have a strong sense that the Son of God weeps at the loss and misplacement of such genius." - Ravi Zacharias -
postmodernism philosophy : from Cindy's blog


Excellent talk by Ravi, broken up into 5 YouTube videos. This is the first time I have heard his lecture/talk. Glad to hear he is from India. Stimulates your mind and thinking. Very good talk.

Anonymous said...

On the last post, this is found:


LYDIA said,
'At SBTS, at least 30 people have been laid off. "

comment:


"Well, maybe once P followed in the ways of the Lord. Maybe he will again, before he passes from this earth.

As for those laid off, they were the innocent victims of P's time in the Dark World, where Christ's light and compassion was not allowed to penetrate.
And so they suffer."

P.S. Dr. Kelley is obviously not inhabiting that 'Dark World'.
What a refreshing contrast Dr. Kelley is to P.
How terrible it must be for those who remain insecure in the "care" of P, whose axe may fall at his will on any of them.

Anonymous said...

May Patterson be converted to Christianity.

And let us say, 'Amen'

Anonymous said...

To all:

Please note that I do NOT think PP is innocent. In fact, I say the exact opposite.

I am not focused on PP in my comment. I am focused on the hatred coming from a supposed christian towards another.

Whether PP is innocent or not should have nothing to do with one's reaction toward the matter.

One can behave like a christian when the person they are interacting with behaves well, but one can spew hatred like the devil if the one they are interacting with deserves it in their view?

Not good enough for me. Sorry.

And anonymous' hatred toward PP is in his face and he is loving every minute of it. He is not broken over the mistakes made by PP. He is not praying for him. That's why I wrote christian with a small "c". He fits the bill.

I know I would be questioning my relationship with God if I hated someone else as much as he hates PP.

His feelings are also revealed by the fact that he couldn't help himself except to make 5 more comments of hate without any type of response. He is spewing hate toward PP and he is the only one in the room. Now that is hate.

Like I said, PP should be the least of his worries. But he is at the top of this jokers list. And all at his own demise.

That's the way I see it.

SL1M

Anonymous said...

May Patterson be converted to Christianity.

And let us say, Amen.

Anonymous said...

Slim, are you sure that guy
hates Dr. Patterson?

Or maybe he just hates what was done to the seminary staff.

You are attacking the messenger.
You are smarter than that.

Anonymous said...

DR. KELLEY HAS ALWAY PUT THE SEMINARY STAFF AND STUDENTS FIRST.

Read this interview excerpt.
It was done following the Hurricane Katrina disaster.

You will understand that Dr. Kelley has a 'history' of looking out for others:



"Although admitting to a big need for cash to fund the seminary’s immediate operating costs, Kelley said taking care of the seminary’s families and their human needs will continue to be the top priority.

“We are working hard to get things up and running, and we will continue to serve the students,” Kelley said. “We believe God has given us a very specific mission to fulfill.”

Joking about decorating their small Atlanta apartment with donated odds and ends, Kelley said he and his wife, Rhonda, for the first time in their married lives don’t really know the condition of their home. They believe even if the winds and floods didn’t destroy their goods, the looters will have made off with most everything.

“We need to assume everything we have is gone and anything we get back is God’s grace,” Kelley said. “God never asks more of us than He gave Himself. We are homeless, but we are not hopeless.”

Anonymous said...

Some people are gifted to serve.
And some people are not.

Dr. Kelley is especially called to service by the Lord.

Not all seminary presidents are so fortunate.

Anonymous said...

As for Dr. Mohler, no one on earth is more dedicated to the success of Southern than he. In fact the Seminary and College are bursting at the seams. I do not know of another Seminary in the world so greatly esteemed than Southern and whose doctoral program is so strong. The idea of asking Dr. Mohler to take a cut in pay when Southern is hardly in peril is a bit insulting."

(Clap Clap) Spoken like a true Darwinian Chrisitian. Survival of the fittist. Some animals are more equal than others, eh? We certainly would not want to insult Mohler. Best to step on the peons, instead.

Naiveté is hardly the problem. Somehow we have confused success with license and favoritism. Our leaders deserve their greatness. Success equals 'rightness'. Ask Rick Warren. He knows. How dare we question how they spend money. The 9 million dollar face lift to make Al look good at the 150th is much more important than some peon with a family. How silly of me. Al deserves the best seats. (See James)

Lydia

Anonymous said...

In hearing the story about Hurricane Katrina being a judgment on New Orleans because of the French Quarter, I have often why the seminary area was actually hit harder. He is why I think this is so. In praying for a relative that has come out of the closet, scorning God and did this through a public media. I have prayed nights feeling the laughter and jeers of the adversary. If you are going to serve God you are going to suffer much. But suffering much brings you into a closer fellowship to Him and you understand things like Isaiah 51. Truly no servant is greater than His master.

Anonymous said...

It is also why I can't dismiss some mid-tribulational arguments though I am pre-trib.

Anonymous said...

Actually, anon., the seminary area was "strangely" protected, although many trees were blown down.
The looters were chased away by the National Guard who came and made the seminary buildings temporarily their camp.

The judgment of God is on those who KNEW about all the suffering and did not respond. Those who 'flew over' in their jets and 'looked down' on the destruction. Those who let thousands of New Orleans people struggle without aid for days after the hurricane.

Anonymous said...

Imagine the irony:

Dr. Kelley, homeless after Katrina, now able to share and help his staff and students.

Another Seminary President, living in a 'mansion', unable to share and help his staff and students.

Better to be 'homeless' with hope;
than in a mansion and 'hopeless'.

Tom Parker said...

Slim:

How do you know anon hates PP?

Anonymous said...

SERVING OTHERS AS THEIR LEADER

Blest are the poor in spirit.
A servant of God is, must be, poor in spirit, humble, willing to give to others. Then, he can be called a leader.

Those who are 'puffed up in spirit' don't understand about giving. They don't understand.
They have to be taught how to share, how to help others, how to give.

Lots of cultures have stories about the ability to give to others. Here is one of the best:

"Serving Others"

A story tells of a man who prayed continually for the awareness to succeed in life.
Then one night he dreamed of going into the forest to attain understanding.

The next morning he went into the woods and wandered for several hours looking for some sign that would provide answers.

When he finally stopped to rest, he saw a fox with no legs lying between two rocks in a cool place.

Curious as to how a legless fox could survive, he waited until sunset when he observed a lion come and lay meat before the fox.

"Ah, I understand," the man thought.

"The secret to success in life is to trust that God will take care of all my needs.
I don't need to provide for myself. All I have to do is totally surrender to my all-sustaining God."

Two weeks later, weakened and starving, the man had another dream.

In it he heard a Voice say,
"Fool. Be like the lion,
not like the fox."



COMMENT: Maybe the lion's name was 'Aslan'. :)

Anonymous said...

Prayer for P.

Lord, heal him of blindness,
so that he can see YOU.

Lord, heal him of crippling selfishness,
so that he can walk after YOU.

Lord, heal the leprous wounds of materialism he bears, so he can give freely to those in need in his care, and be able to give praise and worship to you, with clean hands and a loving heart.

May it be so.

Kevin M. Crowder said...

Anonymous,

Prayer is important, but I would very humbly and respectfully suggest that you not use prayer as a means by which to change people to conform to your desires but rather in the privacy of your prayer closet, seek the best for Dr. Patterson in accordance with God's will.

Invoking the Almighty's hand in propagating our opinions is, imvho, blasphemous.

k

Anonymous said...

Some day, the NOBTS will pass away.
Some day, the SWBTS will pass away.

What remains?

That once there was a shepherd among them who cared for his sheep.

That is what remains.

Anonymous said...

To 'k',

What is more important?

The open call for prayer for someone in that much trouble is a merciful act.

The ones who focus on 'judgmentalism' will not pray.

The others who realize their Christian duty to pray for this man's healing: they will pray to Christ and He will hear them.

'Judgmentalism' is in the heart of the reader, sir, not the one who calls for needed prayers for a drowning man.

Anonymous said...

So the seminary was protected but I noticed where it was located in the city? Is it in a built up area?

Anonymous said...

NATIONAL GUARD SETS UP AT NOBTS – "Even while the scenes of lawlessness and crime in post-Katrina New Orleans continued to pour from televisions across the country, the campus of New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary was secure.

A group of Oregon National Guardsmen stationed in the Gentilly neighborhood where the seminary is located made NOBTS their command post. The front of campus had escaped flooding. This small island in the midst of a city under water provided a perfect staging area for troops and equipment."

Anonymous said...

A miracle.
The seminary was protected by the Lord.
No wonder Dr. Kelley can be so generous to his staff and students.
He knows where to place his trust.

debbiekaufman said...

Slim: You repeatedly say that you don't know the details, yet you read the posts with the references, you have access to google, and can do plenty of research. It's difficult for me to understand how you can not have the details.

Anonymous said...

Hi Debbie,

That's what I am saying. The extent of my knowledge is what I can google, etc...

To me that's not "all the details".

I really don't want to talk about him any longer. I never did really. My only point was that as a Christian I am thankful I don't have someone in my life that I hate so much that they control my witness.

I don't think the "badness" of someone else should give us a free ticket to express clear hatred toward them. No matter how wrong they are.

Tom: I prayed and asked God to tell me who was wrong. PP and all his deeds or the "christian" foaming at the mouth because of his deeds?

God said "Both". :)

I'm done. Next topic.

SL1M

Tom Parker said...

Slim:

IMO you should be very careful in determining who is a "christian" or a Christian. That is not your job.

Anonymous said...

Hey slim, the 'christian' foaming at the mouth' didn't do any harm to the staff at SWBTS, did he?

That's the difference.

You are not used to speaking up for the people on the receiving end of trouble: it is called,
'speaking truth to power'

Try it sometime.
All this 'tolerance' for P's actions boggles the mind, when you think WHOSE money was squandered by WHOM and WHO NOW must pay the price of suffering.

Whose side are you on?
When 'P' is in spending-mode, do you speak up? NO
When 'P' is in 'bragging about extravagances' mode via that Christmas film, did you speak up: NO
When 'P' is in 'closing down a needed-care center' mode, did you speak up? NO
And now, "P" is hurting people by firing them to cover his personal extravagances, are you speaking up? NO

Did you remain silent and go along with the treatment of women professors and those missionaries, too?

Of COURSE, you will condemn someone speaking up as 'unchristian'.

Same as neo-cons called those who opposed torture 'traitors'.

It's all about kissing up to the powerful, the bullies.

Is is 'Christian' to watch someone like 'P' in action and not speak up? Some people don't see it that way at all. And thank God, for that.

If the troubles 'P' has caused his staff actually happened to you, then maybe, just maybe, you would 'get it'.
But we hope you don't suffer like them. But some must speak for them. Some people 'get it'.

What would it take for YOU to speak up? Tolerating the intolerable; and then belittling the ones who don't tolerate it: that's you Slim. real 'Christian'

Anonymous said...

In the face of the destruction of people's lives,
the Christian silence is deafening.

Anonymous said...

To 'K'


"All Dr. Patterson needs to do is weather the storm. There are plenty of Southern Baptists who line up with him theologically and ecclesiastically. And since we have six seminaries, they deserve to have one to call their own."


That part about 'they deserve to have one to call their own'.

Please tell us:

1. Who is 'they'
2. What does the word 'one' stand
for?
3. When you say 'to call their
own" what degree of
ownership are you indicating?
4. 'deserve' how? why? who
gave this to them?
for what reasons?

How is Christ and the Church serves by your remark?


P.S. This 'storm' may have been sent by Someone Who is VERY offended.
In that case, Patterson will not be able to 'weather' it. Even with your excellent support of him.

Anonymous said...

KEVIN CROWDER wrote: 'All Dr. Patterson needs to do is weather the storm.'

On reading what Kevin wrote, another story came to mind, about another sad tale of money and authoritarianism, and mis-use of God's money.

Here is the story; notice the similarities. Chilling.



A TALE OF A HOOD-WINKED CHURCH AND THE WOLVES THAT DID IT:

different characters
different setting
different time

"But in the 13 years years since his death, politics of destruction have reigned in the Worldwide Church of God. When the new administration took over in 1986, they immediately began making changes—administratively and doctrinally (called “The Agenda,” ). Here are the fruits of this transformation: More than 60 percent of church membership have either left the church disgruntled or were excommunicated for resisting change.

The Plain Truth’s 8 million circulation plummeted to less than 100,000. The television program, once on 400 stations, has been canceled. Ambassador College has been completely shut down; the Ambassador Foundation and the Cultural Foundation dissolved. To many WCG members and former members, these 13 years have been gut wrenching.

And all the while, a tight-knit band of administrators at the church’s headquarters have weathered the storm: the fleeing membership, the plummeting income, the downsizing and phasing out. They can now survey the desolate landscape of a once-prosperous church they’ve destroyed.

But they can do it with a smile. Last month, on the very day Mr. Armstrong died 13 years ago, the Los Angeles Times reported that WCG officials had sold the Ambassador campus and church headquarters in Pasadena for more than $100 million.

Today, the Auditorium, God’s house, awaits development as an “urban village.” And former church members gape, wondering what this small group of rebels will do with God’s money. •



What a sad little tale of poor little sheep who got fleeced, but good.

Anonymous said...

THE SHEPHERD GOES BEFORE

""He goes before them." When he leads you out he does not leave you alone; he has already gone ahead of you. In every situation you have to face he has been there first. He has chosen for you every circumstance of your life as a believer. That is the great truth of Scripture that helps us handle the pressures, the dangers, and the pitfalls of life: He has gone before us. What a beautiful picture that is! The Shepherd goes before. In the words of David in the 23rd Psalm, "Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil for Thou art with me. Thy rod and Thy staff comfort me," {Psa 23:4 KJV}."


Dr. Kelley, in making the larger sacrifice, has, as a shepherd, tried to comfort his staff by sharing and shouldering a larger burden than they will carry. This encouragement was meant to comfort them indeed. This is one lesson the seminarians won't forget.

Anonymous said...

Kevin and SL1M:

Thanks for your comments on this post.

"Budget priority" stories are a traditional interest in journalism. They are often points of attack for political opponents (e.g. Clinton's midnight basketball program) and they often reveal angry jealousies in people who either don't have much money, and resent those who do, or don't have much authority or ability to make decisions at various places, but wish they do.

Budget stories are always somewhat selective by nature (i.e. one place is picked, another is not; budget criticisms are made without providing a true sense of the global options), and they are rarely consistent in application. (e.g. Bush was criticized for having a $40M inauguration; not a peep about Obama's $170M inauguration).

I have wondered what is going to happen or is happening in churches around the SBC in light of the recent crisis.

So far, our church has been blessed, and haven't had to make cuts. But we might have to. We might cut things that other churches would not cut. Our pastor might take a pay cut, or he might not. Staff might be let go or programs might be cut. At any rate, I don't think that I would be too judgmental about how various churches respond to this financial crisis. Each place is different.

I don't know this to be true, but I suspect that those reading this post or commenting have very little information about the budgets at SWBTS, SBTS or NOBTS, what the realistic options were for dealing with the finances at this time etc. But that does not stop people from making the most judgmental comments. Even reasoned suggestions for the toning down of judgments are met with derision.

I do not always agree with your comments, and I am sure that you do not with mine. But I want to say thanks for sharing your thoughts. Don't let those who are rude and mean draw you into their camp. I especially say that with respect to the people that even Wade has chosen to ignore.

To Rob Masters, same thought goes out to you, although it seems that your comments on this post have to do with some other issue (and I am not really able to follow it), I am sorry that you are not being treated with respect. I assume that the over the top reactions are due to some personal issues with those people, which we do not really need to be made aware of.

Take care.

Louis

Anonymous said...

SPIRITUAL ABUSE: an example of how 'not to do leadership'

"Some time ago I received a letter from a woman describing a series of painful experiences of spiritual abuse in a small, independent church. She talked about leaders who bullied the members into religious activities by holding hostage their right standing with God based on those activities; about employees of the ministry who were underpaid, while leaders were making a comfortable living; about the absence of financial accountability; and about questioning of the leadership being equated with questioning God. The church leaders were misusing their authority by controlling and manipulating, instead of serving and equipping, the members of Christ’s body.

At one point in the letter she posed this question: “Why do 300 people allow one man to control their each and every move, even though they, at best, question it or, at worst, know it is wrong?” What a great question! Was the answer simply that the people were unaware of the problem? The letter made it clear that many in the congregation knew that things were not right. Was the answer a lack of courage? I suppose a factor could be the fear of a strong, charismatic leader; the fear of being humiliated publicly; the fear that they might lose everything for which they had invested their souls and finances; or the fear of having a falling out with God by disagreeing with his official “representative.”

Anonymous said...

POOR, POOR MAC

"I just want to remind everyone at FBC Jax that Dr. Paige Patterson in March 2007 after Mac Brunson preached chapel at SWBTS, Patterson stood before his student body and told them that poor Mac had been attacked by recalcitrants at FBC Jax since he arrived at our church, and that Mac never had a honeymoon at FBC Jax.

Poor Mac.

He only came here and lived in a multi-million dollar ocean front condo his first year rent free, signed a deed purchasing a $300,000 piece of land for $100 within 2 weeks of his arrival, had a lavish office suite renovated for he and his office staff ...and was given a salary allowing him to immediately start construction on a mansion in a gated community on a fairway. Gee, let's raise our hands and see who is willing to pray for poor ole Mac.

Yet Paige Patterson decided to paint the picture of poor Mac needing prayer by the SWBTS students because he was being unfairly attacked by "recalcitrants".

To make it even more disgusting, Paige explained the reason why Dr. Brunson was being attacked: BECAUSE THE DEVIL IS TRYING TO BRING DOWN GOD'S MAN....WHY OF COURSE!

Never mind the truth, let's just blame any criticism, any quesitons that are raised...blame it all on the devil and his recalcitrant bloggers."

Anonymous said...

Are you being SERVED ?
or FLEECED ?

"The Associated Baptist Press - www.abpnews.com on April 3, 2001 reported that:

"About half of Baptist organizations contacted by the independent newspaper Baptists Today would not disclose salary information for their top executive. Three Southern Baptist Convention entities said policies allowed them to release only salary ranges.

Presidents Albert Mohler of Southern Seminary in Louisville, Ky., and Kenneth Hemphill of Southwestern Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas, declined to provide any information on compensation. New Orleans Seminary did not return numerous phone calls regarding the salary of President Charles Kelley. However, the IRS requires all colleges and universities to report the salaries of the top five paid staff members, Brumley explained."


Christian News Today had requested that Campus Crusade for Christ validate or deny the following story and disclose the total salary of its Founder Bill Bright. When contacted a staff worker of CCC said it would not be a problem and that CCC would not only give us Bill Bright salary but also his personal income tax.

Later the same staff worker, when asked about the CNT request and CCC offer told CNT in writing

" I DO NOT WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU AGAIN EVER "


$$$$$$$$$ and so it goes $$$$$$

Anonymous said...

'The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.'

Romans 13:12

Come out into the light about those salaries and bonuses.
What do you have to hide?
You serve God?
Are you ashamed of what you take for yourselves from what the people give for the Church?
Come out into the light.

Come clean about the money
before the people of the Church.
Serve Him AND THEM with clean hands and a pure heart.

Anonymous said...

This is a wide spread practice of non-salary disclosure. Bellevue Baptist would never release Adrian Rogers salary. I'm sure AR on bended knees begged the staff to release his salary to his people.

Adrian Rogers' widow abandoned her beloved Bellevue and influenced a lot of people to follow her lead. Bellevue lost a lot of financial support in this and consequently a lot of common workers were laid off from the staff. Luckily no important people were let go!

Never underestimate what one person can do to affect a lot of people.

Paige patterson is not the only scoundrel here. This is a can of worms!

Anonymous said...

"Budget priority" stories are a traditional interest in journalism. They are often points of attack for political opponents (e.g. Clinton's midnight basketball program) and they often reveal angry jealousies in people who either don't have much money, and resent those who do, or don't have much authority or ability to make decisions at various places, but wish they do."

Once again, Louis makes his subtle jabs at the peasants. They are just too ignorant of 'high finance' to know anything. And are just jealous.

Let's see, right now I am on two boards who are making serious cuts. I serve on my church budget committee and we are doing the same. I am also working with my cousin on some budget cuts for a city. In ALL these situations the same theme runs through: People assumed the budgets had to increase by a certain percentage every year. Not one of them looked for cuts or even efficiencies in operations since the last big economic scare.

That says a lot about us as Americans but what does it say about Christians who did not do that in our churches and seminaries?

Not good stewardship. And that is what is being dicussed here in reality. Stewardship. We want to rationalize away mansions, building projects, 9 million dollar campus face lifts, and high salaries for servants of our Lord.

(Psst: He is going to burn it all up someday. It has no eternal significance)

We are Laodicea and don't even realize it. The peons should not come first when we think of cuts. The average American makes somewhere in the vicinity of 46,000 a year. Would our leaders do their jobs for that? I wonder.

Lydia

Anonymous said...

WALKING IN THE LIGHT OF CHRIST

"Cockroaches are creatures of the night. Turn on a light and they hurriedly scatter to find refuge in some other dark place.

The same is true for those caught in the darkness of sin.

They fear the light because it will reveal their deeds for what they truly are--at best empty; at worst evil.

When we come to Christ, however, we are no longer part of that darkness (Colossians 1:13-14).
As creatures of the light, we should live differently than those who are still in darkness.

Let's take a closer look at those differences according to God's Word.

What Does God Say?
Ephesians 5:8-14 (ESV)

"For at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord.

Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret.

But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible, for anything that becomes visible is light. Therefore it is said,

'Awake, O sleeper,
and arise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you.'"

Walking in the light brings responsibility. We can see; the rest of the world can't. Those who walk in darkness can't see to make choices, but we who walk in the light can tell the difference between what's pleasing to the Lord and what is of the world.

That means we have the responsibility to refuse to participate in "the unfruitful works of darkness."

Christian people need to ask their SBC leadership, for everyone's sake and for the glory of God, to do the following:


COME OUT INTO THE LIGHT
ABOUT WHAT YOU HAVE DONE WITH THE CHURCH'S MONEY

Anonymous said...

Wade

What is your salary? other income?

Thy Peace said...

The salary or what a person makes is not that important. What is important and crucial is the openness or transparency of an organization - especially non-profit org.

For churches, they should at least share what the officers make in salary if asked by church members. They should not retaliate or mistreat the church members who request this information. For I view the church members as investors and officers as workers.

I do not know the mechanics of SBC seminaries and how CP monies go to them. Because of CP monies going to seminaries, they should at least share the information with churches who ask this information. For here churches are the investors, and the seminaries are obligated to share information on how they spend that money.

For a pastor, as long as church members are comfortable and know ahead what the pastor makes, it should be ok. It does not matter what the amount is.

Because of the transparency, it mostly self-corrects if there are any excesses.

Anonymous said...

THY PEACE wrote:
'For here churches are the investors, and the seminaries are obligated to share information on how they spend that money.'

Yes. Indeed, especially if the seminary is in financial trouble and it is none that the head of the seminary has been over-the-top extravagant and flaunted it.

Accountability is vital to keeping faith with the 'share-holders', that is, the people who give their hard-earned monies for the sake of Christ's work.

Does it make a difference what the president of a seminary makes or spends ?
Ask the people at SWBTS who got laid off; ask the professors who have had to take cuts in benefits, ask the students and staff who so very much needed that day-care center. Perhaps they can answer the question better than we can.

They are the ones who have had to pay for the excesses, which the Pattersons have made visible.
And they are the ones who have had to give up much for any excesses that the Pattersons have kept hidden.

WatchingHISstory said...

TP said: "For a pastor, as long as church members are comfortable and know ahead what the pastor makes, it should be ok. It does not matter what the amount is."

Well now what has been the fuss of NBBCOF about Steve Gaines' salary?

"He should tighten his belt at the top" around the neck

Anonymous said...

whoah . . .

Anonymous said...

WHS

can't you just shut up! If NBBCOF want to bad mouth the Gaines then let them do it.

Anonymous said...

Doesn't the SBC have some reasonable standards for salary ranges commensurate with experience and degree of responsibility ?

Notice that word: REASONABLE ?

Or are they heavily into fleecing ?

I am wondering if these guys think that they are fleecing 'the sheep' don't they realized that the money is sacred to the Lord's purposes and must be stewarded accordingly?

Dave said...

I have always been proud to be a NOBTS Grad! Dr. Kelley was my first professor and first Seminary President! :)

Anonymous said...

I appreciate your comment Louis. Thank you.

You are correct on many levels. I used to be against this, but I am starting to change my mind and wish that Wade would not allow anonymous comments.

As a missionary, I would not be able to comment any longer but that would be a small price to pay to not have to read all this other nonsense from people who are cowards.

SL1M

Anonymous said...

Lydia:

I am glad that you are lending your energies to some organizations during these tough times. It is never easy to cut a budget.

I would never pretend that I know enough about the budgets that you are dealing with to criticize any decisions you are making. Any such criticism would be arrogant from where I sit.

And that same point applies to many comments made about the budget struggles of SBC agencies.

I agree with your comments about stewardship.

Louis

Anonymous said...

Kevin,
"All Dr. Patterson needs to do is weather the storm. There are plenty of Southern Baptists who line up with him theologically and ecclesiastically. And since we have six seminaries, they deserve to have one to call their own. Those folks will be impressed by the dog and pony show of Pecan Manor."

who is the dog
and who is the pony?

Anonymous said...

God bless and multiply this kind of leadership. My state mission board recently enacted changes that accomplished the opposite: lower salaries received a net pay cut and higher salaries received a net raise. It was depressing.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

This is a wide spread practice of non-salary disclosure. Bellevue Baptist would never release Adrian Rogers salary. I'm sure AR on bended knees begged the staff to release his salary to his people.

Adrian Rogers' widow abandoned her beloved Bellevue and influenced a lot of people to follow her lead. Bellevue lost a lot of financial support in this and consequently a lot of common workers were laid off from the staff. Luckily no important people were let go!

Never underestimate what one person can do to affect a lot of people.

Paige patterson is not the only scoundrel here. This is a can of worms!

Sun Jan 25, 08:40:00 PM 2009


Give it a rest, Charles Page!

Anonymous said...

WatchingHISstory said...

TP said: "For a pastor, as long as church members are comfortable and know ahead what the pastor makes, it should be ok. It does not matter what the amount is."

Well now what has been the fuss of NBBCOF about Steve Gaines' salary?

"He should tighten his belt at the top" around the neck

Sun Jan 25, 10:47:00 PM 2009


That's the point idiot. Church members don't know exactly what the pastor makes but they know it's enough that they're not comfortable with it.

Oh there you go putting words in other people's mouths again pervert. Nobody said Steve Gaines should tighten his ample belt around the neck or anywhere else. Anyone with any sense at all knows tightening the belt at the top means salary and benefit cuts should begin at the top as Dr. Kelley did, but I'm beginning to think tightening your belt around your neck - or your mouth - would be something for you to consider.

Anonymous said...

So, we learned that the SWBTS is sinking in a the financial storm.

And the captain of the SWBTS is on a luxury life-boat directing the whole thing.

What happened to HONOR ?

Anonymous said...

KEVIN CROWDER said,

"All Dr. Patterson needs to do is weather the storm.

There are plenty of Southern Baptists who line up with him theologically and ecclesiastically.

And since we have six seminaries, they deserve to have one to call their own.

Those folks will be impressed by the dog and pony show of Pecan Manor."

LINE UP WITH HIM ?

Kevin, there are plenty more Southern Baptists who line up with the theology and ecclesiology of the Lord Jesus Christ.

And they are sickened by the 'dog and pony' show at Pecan Manor.

P needs to give the money back to the seminary. It's the right thing to do.

Anonymous said...

Mrs Rogers needs to give the money back to Bellevue Baptist. It's the right thing to do.

She could undo her wrongs by paying the money back to the Church that would restore the poor workers who lost their jobs due to lay-offs.

Anonymous said...

Please tell us what "wrongs" Mrs. Rogers committed, Charles.