"I went to Jerusalem to become acquainted (Gk. istoria) with Cephas" - Paul's words from Galatians 1:18.

Hardball Religion: Release Date - Spring 2009

I have spent the last several months working on a book that documents the intentional narrowing of the doctrinal parameters of fellowship and missions cooperation within the Southern Baptist Convention. Readers familiar with this blog will know the troubles I experienced at the International Mission Board of the SBC for speaking out against two doctrinal policies which IMB trustees adopted in 2005, doctrinal policies that exceeded the 2000 Baptist Faith and Message. As a result of these policies, hundreds of otherwise qualified Southern Baptists were prevented from serving on the mission field. This book documents, in narrative form, the events at the International Mission Board that eventually led to trustees in leadership offering a motion to remove me from the board in order to discredit my character and silence my dissent. I then trace the events that led to the eventual unaminous rescision of that motion and the extraordinary action taken by the 2007 Southern Baptist Convention to repudiate the IMB's attempt to establish narrower doctrinal parameters for the SBC. Throughout the book I attempt to explain what is at stake if the SBC does not resist the trend toward neo-Landmarkist, separatist, ecclesiological fundamantalism, which cherishes Baptist Identity more than Christian charity. The book is currently going through the editing process at the publishing company and should be released sometime in the spring of 2009. Two of my fellow trustees have read the manuscript and confirmed to me that the facts presented in the book are precisely the way they remember events occuring at the IMB. The chapters of the book will be as follows:

Foreword
Chapter 1 Blindsided!
Chapter 2 At Home on the Range
Chapter 3 The Phone Call
Chapter 4 The IMB Policies That Became the Fuse
Chapter 5 The Chairman’s Outburst at Pensacola Beach
Chapter 6 The Day Adrian Rogers Died
Chapter 7 Discovery

Chapter 8 The Blog
Chapter 9 Teaching the Rookie a Lesson
Chapter 10 Closed Doors
Chapter 11 Those Weirdoes from Oklahoma
Chapter 12 Meet Me in St. Louis
Chapter 13 Trustee Leaders Trying to Save Face
Chapter 14 A Unanimous Reversal

Chapter 15 "Keep Your Mouth Shut and Your Pen Silent!"
Chapter 16 Religious Liberty and Baptist Freedom
Chapter 17 Turn Off His Mike!
Chapter 18 The IMB Motion at Greensboro
Chapter 19 The 2006 Southern Baptist Convention at Greensboro
Chapter 20 Reflections on the Historic 2006 Convention
Chapter 21 Welcome to the Neighborhood Dwight McKissic

Chapter 22 Sheri Klouda
Chapter 23 Continued Hostility at the IMB
Chapter 24 “What Idiot Said There Was No Investigation?”
Chapter 25 The Garner Motion in San Antonio
Chapter 26 Censured
Chapter 27 Resignation
Chapter 28 Future
After Word



In His Grace,


Wade

155 comments:

Scott Shaffer said...

I'm looking forward to it. Who is the publisher?

Anonymous said...

Baptist Press I'm sure.

Anonymous said...

Fair Question -- who is the publisher?

Anonymous said...

Must be "Cris Matthews Publishing."

Thy Peace said...

Pastor Wade, I would encourage you to go on a speaking tour or at least schedule book interviews (example: Fresh Air with Terry Gross and others). It would be good to publicize your thoughts, ideas and words to a wider audience.

I do not know, if your blog will be eligible for the Pulitzer. At least it should be tried.

Prizes broadened to include online-only publications primarily devoted to original news reporting

Fresh Air from WHYY

Contact NPR

Just my humble opinion. :-)

Bob Cleveland said...

Wade,

Be sure & let me know when the book-signing tour comes to Barnes & Noble in Birmingham. I'll keep my calendar open for it.

Jim said...

Mr. Shaffer and Anonymous,

What difference does the publisher make?

Seriously, it's the content of the book that makes a differnece, not the publisher.

Stuart said...

Sounds like a few fundamentalists may be SCARED. If they ain't, they should be.

They finally have to deal with somebody who doesn't pout and take his toys elsewhere. This ought to be good.

Denise said...

I'll man a table for you right outside the next IMB meeting :)

GOnna be in Enid 26th through 29th and meeting Debbie at Starbucks hopefully if you're around :)

Denise

davidbmclaughlin.com said...

Incredible cover. Whoever designed it should get an award.

looking forward to reading it.

dm

davidbmclaughlin.com said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
davidbmclaughlin.com said...

I'd love to interview you for my podcast when it comes out!

Kevin M. Crowder said...

"Seriously, it's the content of the book that makes a difference[sic], not the publisher."

Not in this market.

If I say Zondervan...

If I say Crossway...

If I say Flemming H. Revell...

If I say Baker Academic...

If I say NavPress or InterVarsity Press...

If I say Broadman/Convention Press/B&H Publishers...

If I say Abingdon-Cokesbury...

If I say Presbyterian and Reformed...

Each has a totally different reputation for the types of books it publishes.

If I say York Street Press...you be like huh?



:)

Alan Cross said...

Looking forward to it, Wade. This will be the first book to come out where I would know background on a great deal of what was written.

I'll definitely get a copy, as I am sure most of the Greensboro Bloggers will. Those were interesting times.

Bill said...

I was told by an executive at Smyth Helwys that they are publishing the book.

Steve said...

Hey, Neat! I read a book once. Will there be a Classics Illustrated version?

Ron said...

I look forward to reading it Wade. As an IMB representative, I always like to hear what is going on behind the curtain at the IMB.

Anonymous said...

Wade,

Please tell us that you've named names in this book. Those of us who've followed this blog since its start know the jist of the story, but we don't know all the names. Also, please tell us that the book won't cost $29.95--though I'm sure it'll be worth every dime of its price!


David

Anonymous said...

The Corleone Brothers want to know who is the publisher. A little visit to offer them a deal they cannot refuse? :o)

NativeVermonter said...

Can I play "Young Wade" when the movie comes out? Although I would need a little extra work on the drawl.

Scott Shaffer said...

Jim,

Don't be so testy. I just wanted to visit the publishers site and read any promotional material they might have.

Thy Peace said...

Smyth & Helwys Publishing, Inc.

Thy Peace said...

How to Publish a Book with Smyth & Helwys

Anonymous said...

Sure, Scott. And Patterson is probably calling his lawyer this morning to get a threat letter off to Wade...just in case.

I think Ben Cole received a few of them....One of them was publised on the Outpost.

Lydia

Scott Shaffer said...

Lydia,

What are you talking about? Did you just accuse me of lying? If so, you just broke the 9th commandment.

Anonymous said...

Wade,

I look foward to reading the chapter "The Day Adrian Rogers Died". The primary reason I became a Southern Baptist only nine years ago (at the age of 40) is due to the powerful influence of this great man of God through his Love Worth Finding outreach. I have suspected for a while that something changed dramatically withing the SBC the day he died, and it grieves me!

Blessings,

Wanda

Wade Burleson said...

Nobody in this book goes by anonymous or remains unnamed.

Blessings,

Wade

PS I don't know the price. A decision on hardback or paperback will be made soon. It is well over 300 pages.

Anonymous said...

What are you talking about? Did you just accuse me of lying? If so, you just broke the 9th commandment.

Wed Dec 17, 09:35:00 AM 2008

Scott, did you just falsly accuse me of accusing you? :o)

Did you enjoy the publishers promotional material?

By the way, we are in a New Covenant. Next time, use Revelations 21. It works just as well for your purposes. :o)


Lydia

Scott Shaffer said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

I don't have a dog in this hunt. Thank goodness I am no longer a SBCer. However, it (question about the publishers) is a legitimate question as it gives proof to the legitimacy of the argument and the influence the book might have.

I have also noticed that Burleson has not answered the question? Is it self-published? Is it a publisher that might enjoy swinging the ax against the SBC? Is it the same publisher that Cole will use for his diatribe (yes, I admit my bias against Cole) against Patterson?

BTW, don't really care for many of the leadership in the SBC right now. So my question is really just a curiosity one.

Scott Shaffer said...

Lydia,

Actually, I didn't accuse you of anything. I asked you if you were actually accusing me of lying. Why? Because it appeared to be the case. But I may have misread your sarcasm. If so, please forgive me. If not, well I am puzzled as I am an infrequent commenter here and have never dialogued with you. So it puzzles me how you would understand my intent.

I probably just misunderstood you.

Wade Burleson said...

Anonymous,

The publisher is Smyth-Helwys. They have been very professional. I wrote the book, not SH. I have no idea what you mean that the "publisher" might have an axe to swing, so I will not even attempt to speak for them. I will speak only for myself.

I can guarantee you that I have an axe. It is directed at the dead wood of neo-Landmarkism, the wormwood of extra-biblical traditionalism, and the unwanted branches of exclusive evangelical separatism that seek to make us Southern Baptists believe we are the only ones who have the true gospel.

Our church has given over 1 million dollars to the CP in the past few years, I have faithfully served my Convention for years, and I am an evangelical, conservative Christian who participates with the SBC by choice, and I have no intentions to leaving.

I love my convention enough to say what needs to be said, regardless of the consequences. If I were you, I would pony up and sign your name. A signature represents the character and courage necessary to follow the leadership of the Holy Spirit in your life. Anonymous contributions don't.

Blessings,

Wade

P.S. I am out for ministry today. Blessings to all. Thanks for the kind words about the pageant last night.

ml said...

Lydia, you may want to check but I think it should be Revelation 21 not Revelations 21. It is singular not plural.

B Nettles said...

Wade said the unwanted branches of exclusive evangelical separatism that seek to make us Southern Baptists believe we are the only ones who have the true gospel.

Wade, that was going on (60's and 70's)before the Conservative Resurgence. The Sunday School Board had all the churches convinced that their literature was the best and most Southern Baptists thought that the only way people up north and out west could get saved was if the Home Mission Board started a SB church there.

My wife and I lived in the Northern VA area in the early 80's, then moved back to Mississippi. People would ask us where we went to church. When they found out it wasn't SB, they would ask "Why did you go there?" Answer: "Because they teach us what the Bible says, not what Nashville says." The pastor in VA had done an internship with John McArthur back in 1978.

But, I agree, that old mindset is NOT a place to which we should return. That was also the era of thinking pastors and missionaries were perfect people who we hired to share the Gospel so we didn't have to.

Anonymous said...

Lydia, you may want to check but I think it should be Revelation 21 not Revelations 21. It is singular not plural.

Wed Dec 17, 12:57:00 PM 2008

Thanks ml. I love those 'S's' too much.

Lydia

Savage Baptist said...

I'm lookin' forward to it. This ought to be a barn-burner.

I like being a Southern Baptist. I believe in the errancy of scripture, sola scriptura, an' all that. But I have become more and more convinced over the last three years that, flying under those colors, a relatively small group of people has managed to propagate a much narrower set of behaviors than Scripture actually prescribes as the norm for all of Christendom. It hurts the Convention, it hurts the Body, and I'm getting sick of it.

Lookin' forward to the book!

Savage Baptist said...

'scuse me, that should have been "inerrancy of scripture."

Anonymous said...

Wow, Wade. I was going to applaud you for one of the most profound things I've heard you say here.

I can guarantee you that I have an axe. It is directed at the dead wood of neo-Landmarkism, the wormwood of extra-biblical traditionalism, and the unwanted branches of exclusive evangelical separatism that seek to make us Southern Baptists believe we are the only ones who have the true gospel.

Then in the same comment two paragraphs later you say one of the most ridiculous things I've heard you say.

I love my convention enough to say what needs to be said, regardless of the consequences. If I were you, I would pony up and sign your name. A signature represents the character and courage necessary to follow the leadership of the Holy Spirit in your life. Anonymous contributions don't.

Using your logic, we should ignore the book of Hebrews. Signing a name (and who knows in a forum such as this if people are using their real names or not) does not make one's words any more important. It can sometimes serve to distract from the message though. I wish everyone would once and for all get over the anonymous issue and consider people's words, not the name (or pseudonym) they sign.

Little Mary Sunshine

Elizabeth said...

"I love my convention enough to say what needs to be said, regardless of the consequences. If I were you, I would pony up and sign your name. A signature represents the character and courage necessary to follow the leadership of the Holy Spirit in your life. Anonymous contributions don't."
I'm not sure I understand allowing the Dec 8 post from the "respected Southern Baptist Convention leader" to be anonymous, in light of those comments?

greg.w.h said...

Little Mary Sunshine wrote:

Using your logic, we should ignore the book of Hebrews. Signing a name (and who knows in a forum such as this if people are using their real names or not) does not make one's words any more important. It can sometimes serve to distract from the message though. I wish everyone would once and for all get over the anonymous issue and consider people's words, not the name (or pseudonym) they sign.

No, none of Wade's logic regarding anonymity applies to the book of Hebrews. It's only in the Bible because it is assumed that at that time Christians knew who the author was and that the author had apostolic authority. Tradition argues strongly for Paul as the author, in fact. But other scholarship leaves room for other authors.

BUT: That the book was not written by an opponent of Christianity is a given. And that fact is highly important context for the message of the book. On the other hand, I've read anonymous comments on Wade's site over the past couple of years where not only was the commenter's position important to the comment being made, but it wasn't even clear if the person was a Christian or not as he/she attempted to comment on a spiritual idea.

I particularly find your concept intriguing in a faith where God INSISTS that we put profess him publicly. Do you think that means we can profess him publicly and anonymously at the same time? And if the same courage that is required for public profession isn't required for simple dialog about our faith, isn't that at least inconsistent if not completely disingenous?

And the reason you're hiding behind an alias is...what exactly? Tell us the EXACT rationale as it is extremely important to your claims regarding the necessity of anonymity. That information is an important part of your viewpoint. And it's highly unlikely that you will honestly and transparently answer that request for information.

Greg Harvey

Dr. Sheri Klouda said...

I had no idea what you were up to.
When you sell the rights to the screen play, I would like to play
Sheri Klouda from Chapter 22 alongside Native Vermonter as "Young Wade." If you make it to Indy on book tour, I would be happy to see if we can get a great big Wade Burleson cardboard likeness created for you. Also, someday you could branch out with other marketable items, such as t-shirts.....imagine the resources for doing ministry! The book, of course, will be banned from Lifeway.....

Let me just take this opportunity to express my gratitude once again to everyone who supported us in the last year and a half, and wish you all a blessed celebration of Christ's birth.

Blessings,
the Hebrew Professor

Robert I Masters said...

Wade,
I dont ever understand why you remain in the Southern Baptist Convention.
You talk like a CBFer, you walk like CBFer,you publish with the CBFers!
Why do you think the "moderates" all love you so much.
Just asking?

From the Southern Baptist Geneva
Robert I Masters

Robert I Masters said...

Wade,
If you dont really understand the SH connection then maybe you should read Jesse C Fletcher: The Southern Baptist Convention.
Call me skeptical.

From the Southern Baptist Geneva
Robert I Masters

greg.w.h said...

Robert I. Masters wrote:

I dont ever understand why you remain in the Southern Baptist Convention.
You talk like a CBFer, you walk like CBFer,you publish with the CBFers!
Why do you think the "moderates" all love you so much.
Just asking?


I can't speak for Wade, but I can offer my analysis of his stance:

The Southern Baptist Convention is a historical association of churches that originally treated the churches as the source of authority for the Convention. That is traditional Southern Baptist practice and ecclesiology.

The Conservative Resurgence has been taken past its original purpose in order to become a vehicle for taking the SBC towards a fundamentalist, legalistic theology and doctrine that leaves no room for the local church as a source of authority for the actions of the Convention UNLESS the local church subscribes to this very narrow interpretation of biblical content.

The CBF has nothing to do with anything that Wade is doing. If I were to characterize how Wade feels about the division between CBF congregations and the SBC, I probably would use the word "mournful". I think that because he consistently asks that we leave room in the Convention for differences as stark as those between Calvinistic and Landmarkist viewpoints. Those viewpoints are just as irreconcilable, but during the CR a coalition formed between groups with those disparate viewpoints in an effort to "defend the Bible".

I grew up fully within the Southern Baptist Convention, Robert, and my family was on the field in Indonesia with the then FMB not too long after your dad was killed there (I realized your family served with a different organization, but I still think of others who served on that field at that time as extended family whether SBC or not).

I'm not going to claim that gives me superior insight into what is and isn't Southern Baptist, but I will offer that your effort to use the CBF as a vehicle for vilification doesn't speak well of you as a Christian nor really as a "true" Southern Baptist. Even if we disagree with them on theology--which Wade mostly does--there is room for recognizing them as brothers and sisters in the faith and treating them with respect.

Some of them--like the R. Keith Parks family--served in Indonesia at the same time as your parents. They served faithfully, generously, and even sacrificially even if their sacrifice was not as great as the one God asked you and your family to make. It seems you use the term "CBF" dehumanizes them, so I'm making a specific effort to put a name out there that should be respected by a former MK from Indonesia. I mention Keith specifically because just this summer I had the opportunity to attend a reunion of FMB/IMB missionaries in the US and both Keith Parks and Avery Willis attended that reunion and preached on the same Sunday. One man had served as president of both the FMB and a leader of the CBF. The other man has provided continuing leadership on missions and discipleship to the SBC and was even a candidate for the president of the SBC this summer. If they can be in the same room with each other and show love and respect to each other, then so can the rest of us.

I'm further going to ask that you rehumanize them by not disdaining their spiritual choices even if you disagree with them. I think that such respect is the main point of Wade's continued efforts.

Thank you for consideration of my request.

Greg Harvey

P.S. Little Mary Sunshine: see how the context of knowing another person DOES influence our response to their argumentation and how that context is VERY important???

Anonymous said...

Dr. Klouda,

I am Southern Baptist, and I knew nothing of your situation until just a few months ago. Wade has definitely opened my eyes! My heart breaks for you and your family, and I am keeping you in my prayers.

Loved the humor in your comment to Wade!

Blessings,

Wanda

CB Scott said...

Greg harvey,

Wade says:

"A signature represents the character and courage necessary to follow the leadership of the Holy Spirit in your life. Anonymous contributions don't."

Is that synonymous with me saying Anonys are cowards?

Just asking.

cb

Benji Ramsaur said...

"Publisher?"

Ahhhh yes, Wade. You also better not let them find out about that time you refused to share your slinky with your sister in the third grade.

It totally undercuts anything you have ever said in the church, blog, street, home, Pentagon, and book.

Benji

:)

Anonymous said...

If Klouda gets to play Klouda in chapter 22 then I should get to play Garner in chapter 25.

Rick

Anonymous said...

Stuart; I am fundamental in my belief of the Word of God, but you make fundamental sound like a bad word or an enemy Your frequent rhetoric infers your feelngs. There are hundreds of references of fear in the Word of God but none that say fear what Wade Burleson has to say weather on a blog or in book. My favorite one is Job 28;28 "And unto
man he said,Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom: and to depart from evil is understanding."
I do not mean for this to be contentious even though I know it sounds that way. A brother in Christ. Jim Sadler

Greg Alford said...

Wade,

Perhaps you can have a book signing at this year’s convention? I might actually come to the convention if you do…

I can’t wait to read this book… and I can’t wait to see all the red faced Good Old Boys from the Smoke filled board rooms in the SBC that are about to get exposed.

“Tell the truth and Trust the people…” is still the right way to move the convention forward and move us beyond those who would seek to control the convention from behind closed doors.

Grace Always,

Robert I Masters said...

Greg,
Honestly I find it hard to respond to you because you bring up alot of points at once. Some I agree with but others I disagree with ...strongly.
so here is a point by point response.

1.The Southern Baptist Convention is a historical association of churches that originally treated the churches as the source of authority for the Convention. That is traditional Southern Baptist practice and ecclesiology.

I can think of no dispute here.

2.The Conservative Resurgence has been taken past its original purpose in order to become a vehicle for taking the SBC towards a fundamentalist, legalistic theology and doctrine that leaves no room for the local church as a source of authority for the actions of the Convention UNLESS the local church subscribes to this very narrow interpretation of biblical content.

We will have to disagree as to the nature of the convention. My experience in Southern Baptist Churches is that are very few fundamentalist in most SBC churches.2nd we probably disagree on what you call a very narrow interpetation. I stand in support of that very narrow interpetation.
As a aside I think that most of the
missionaries in Irian Jaya or West Papua as it is called now came from the Bible college movement.When i was there that number was over 500 and not one was a Southern Baptist.You would probably call them fundamentalist!
Schools like Moody,Asbury,Grace ,Nyack.Crown,Multnomah, Praire

More Later
Rob Masters

Tom Parker said...

Mr. Geneva:

I knew you would show up in this comment stream and I knew you would write pretty close to what you did. I'm sure you realize calling someone a CBFer is not a very complimentary term in SBC circles. It is calling someone Liberal and that is the kiss of death in the SBC. It is like saying they don't believe the Bible. I have no doubts that Wade is a conservative and you would accuse him this way and want to know why he is still in the SBC. I hope you know that if everyone was to leave that does not believe the way you do the SBC would be a much smaller place, and if they don't voluntarily leave just try and paint them Liberal. But let's see the CR sure played hardball and many were "removed". But you and others are not satisifed yet. It is not narrow enough for you and never will be.

I can not wait to get my hands on Wade's book, because it is going to reveal what has been going on for years. It will reveal the hardball tactics of those in charge of the SBC and how conservatives treated conservatives and I'm sure it will reveal name calling like calling someone a CBFer as a great tactic.

I'm sure others besides Wade could write books about their shameful treatment during and after the CR.
It's all about power and control and not allowing for any dissent.

I'm not sure you should buy Wade's book, you probably would not enjoy it.
But, maybe you can write a criticism of the book since for you Wade used the "wrong publisher."

Darby Livingston said...

"I dont ever understand why you remain in the Southern Baptist Convention.
You talk like a CBFer, you walk like CBFer,you publish with the CBFers!
Why do you think the "moderates" all love you so much.
Just asking?"

Yeah, Wade, I'm sure Lifeway or B&H or IMB would have been glad to publish your book. Why'd you have to publish with a CBFing publisher (whatever in the world that is)?

As for talking like a CBFer, I'll assume they all have Oklahoma drawls until I hear otherwise. I'll keep my ears open.

As for walking like a CBFer, is that with a certain unmistakable swagger? I've never seen you walk, but I'll keep my eyes out.

As for being loved by the moderates, I wonder why Jesus was loved by the thieves and prostitutes. You friend of CBFers, you.

Thy Peace said...

Smyth & Helwys has published lot of books on/about Southern Baptists here. Also about Smyth & Helwys.

Robert I masters said...

Thy Peace and Darby Livingston,
Looks like those books on Southern Baptist are all critical of the resurgence.
Here is a link
to CBF and Smyth,
Helwys.

http://www.thefellowship.info/Resources

Robert I Masters said...

Here is a good publisher with like -minded theology.
http://www.bhpublishinggroup.com/


or


http://www.lifeway.com/lwc/

From the Southern Baptist Geneva
Robert I Masters

Darby Livingston said...

"Thy Peace and Darby Livingston,
Looks like those books on Southern Baptist are all critical of the resurgence."

Point taken. It seems like you're right on that. However, I think we should let Wade's book state its thesis without being prejudiced against it because of the publisher. That's all. I'll be really honest, it seems most publishers have axes to grind and some are just caterers to the Christian cult of personality. In the end, it's the individual works that need assessment, not the publisher.

Thy Peace said...

These are the links mentioned by Robert I Masters:

CBF Resources

B&H Publishing Group

Lifeway

Anonymous said...

ROBERT I. MASTERS wrote,

'Wade,
I dont ever understand why you remain in the Southern Baptist Convention.'

I can't speak for Wade, but my guess is that he stays because he REMEMBERS when it REALLY WAS the Southern Baptist Convention.

Wade knows that a Christian cannot follow two masters. He knows which Master to follow and it is NOT Patterson et al.

All those preachers who were 'afraid' to challenge Patterson and incur his wrath; each will have to eventually take a stand.
Wade just took his sooner and, because of that, he is and will be a great SBC leader.

It's not the TITLES of a man that are important in the church.
It's the Christian integrity of a man that, in the end, remains standing out in the open and free from intimidation.

Did Wade really have a choice to 'keep his voice and his pen silent'?
Was it his nature? Nope.

Didn't Patterson et al. know that they would be forcing out anyone who didn't 'tow the line'?
They knew EXACTLY what they were doing and it was not the Lord's work.

Wade had to do what was right the way he saw it. Whatever you want to say about Wade, you have to admit he is no quitter.
He is in it for the future of the SBC. He is in it for what the SBC once was before 'silencing of the lambs' began: the silencing of the missionaries and Dr. Klouda.

Mr. Masters, you don't understand Wade's kind of integrity. That is why you don't understand why he does not quit.
You are so right: you do not understand.

Why don't you read his book some day, and then communicate with him about his experiences in an open manner? That might be a positive beginning to 'understanding'.

Thy Peace said...

I do not know if the publishers who are close to SBC would have permitted Pastor Wade's book to be published. Just wondering. If you look at the recent incident of Lifeway pulling the magazine from the shelves, I will leave it to your imagination.

Tom Parker said...

Mr. Masters:

Like yeah, Wade could have gotten a Baptist Publisher? Come on, get real.

Your sign off--"From the Southern Baptist Geneva" says more about Wade getting his book published by any of the SBC Baptist Publishers than you might think.

You just want to fuss about something.

I'm very thankful the book is going to be published.

Robert I Masters said...

Greg,
To continue on the discussion.
3.The CBF has nothing to do with anything that Wade is doing. If I were to characterize how Wade feels about the division between CBF congregations and the SBC, I probably would use the word "mournful". I think that because he consistently asks that we leave room in the Convention for differences as stark as those between Calvinistic and Landmarkist viewpoints. Those viewpoints are just as irreconcilable, but during the CR a coalition formed between groups with those disparate viewpoints in an effort to "defend the Bible".

Its not the CBF who is setting the agenda its people who now seem to have the values of the CBF .....an example ..Tom. This is not the of cooperation I view as Biblical at all. I dont hate those people or disrespect them. I just dont think they belong in the Convention. I dont believe Jesus "cooperated" like that either...he chased the money-changers out!

4.I'm not going to claim that gives me superior insight into what is and isn't Southern Baptist, but I will offer that your effort to use the CBF as a vehicle for vilification doesn't speak well of you as a Christian nor really as a "true" Southern Baptist. Even if we disagree with them on theology--which Wade mostly does--there is room for recognizing them as brothers and sisters in the faith and treating them with respect.

I only vilify the doctrinal postions
of the CBF. Ie... I dont think there postions on homosexuality or women in ministry is Biblical.
BTW...My own mother strongly agrees with me about women in ministry. She would argue that makes them less then a Christian church.

5.Some of them--like the R. Keith Parks family--served in Indonesia at the same time as your parents. They served faithfully, generously, and even sacrificially even if their sacrifice was not as great as the one God asked you and your family to make. It seems you use the term "CBF" dehumanizes them, so I'm making a specific effort to put a name out there that should be respected by a former MK from Indonesia. I mention Keith specifically because just this summer I had the opportunity to attend a reunion of FMB/IMB missionaries in the US and both Keith Parks and Avery Willis attended that reunion and preached on the same Sunday. One man had served as president of both the FMB and a leader of the CBF. The other man has provided continuing leadership on missions and discipleship to the SBC and was even a candidate for the president of the SBC this summer. If they can be in the same room with each other and show love and respect to each other, then so can the rest of us.

Greg...I have never had the chance to meet Mr Parks.My evaluation of him is only through what I have read through Dr Sutton and Dr Fletcher.It seems to me that Dr Sutton was spot on there. I dont disrespect him personally!

From Nashville Tn

Benji Ramsaur said...

Unless the publisher alters Wade's content in some substantive way, then I do not see how it matters who the publisher is.

I probably will even disagree with Wade on what I suspect he will say the Garner motion accomplished.

But that does not have anything to do with the publisher.

It's just a disagreement.

By the way, those chapter titles make me want to read this book.

Wade Burleson said...

Robert I Masters,

I am confident, Robert, that if you and I were to ever spend time one on one, you would be astounded at how much you and I have in common in terms of our faith, our theologies and our high views of Scripture.

I am choosing not to respond to your CBF statement, since there are good, godly men in the CBF, and to defend myself against your accusation would be to denigrate others, as if there was something less than the imputed righteousness of Christ that makes our CBF brothers in Christ right before God.

I will simply continue to speak out against abuses that arise in the SBC, continue to preach Christ and Him crucified, and continue to keep the SBC as broad as possible in cooperation and love for all those who name the name of Jesus.

All the above while remaining a committed Christian and a cooperative program giving, missions supporting, Bible believing Southern Baptist.

In His Grace,

Wade

Thy Peace said...

Sheri Klouda said ...:
"Also, someday you could branch out with other marketable items, such as t-shirts.....imagine the resources for doing ministry!"

Pyromaniacs TeamPyro Pawn Shop

James White: Alpha and Omega Ministries Store

Wade Burleson said...

Anonymous from Nashville, two comments above, does a pretty good job articulating my views about the CBF - whomever he or she may be.

Blessings,

Wade

Wade Burleson said...

Dr. Klouda,

I did not see your comment above until just now.

I promise, if they ever make a movie of the book, you have the starring role!

Please, could you give us a report on Pinkie? I've been praying for him this holiday season, as well as you and your lovely daughter. My wife and I enjoyed our fellowship with you at Rick Garner's church and hope to soon be able to renew it.

In His Grace,

Wade

Thy Peace said...

Pastor Wade, Dr. Sheri Klouda wrote an email to fbcjaxwatchdog during Thanksgiving, mentioning Pinky.

Batchaps said...

Wade,
If the target of your writing fury is directed specifically towards the SBC leadership alone then why not mention that in the title and/or on the cover? The current cover/title is a bit ambiguous as religious fundamentalism, at least in my humble opinion, is something that is currently associated by most contemporary Christians/Americans with non-Christian religious traditions.

Just curious; hope you sell a million.

Russ+

debbiekaufman said...

Mr. Masters, you don't understand Wade's kind of integrity. That is why you don't understand why he does not quit.
You are so right: you do not understand.


Very well said and I agree.

Robert I Masters said...

Wade,
1.I am confident, Robert, that if you and I were to ever spend time one on one, you would be astounded at how much you and I have in common in terms of our faith, our theologies and our high views of Scripture.

No disagreement here. If you have not noticed I rarely say anything when you discuss Calvinism. Iam almost always in total agreement with you on that issue.

2.I am choosing not to respond to your CBF statement, since there are good, godly men in the CBF, and to defend myself against your accusation would be to denigrate others, as if there was something less than the imputed righteousness of Christ that makes our CBF brothers in Christ right before God.

Wade this argument is a strawman!
I have not said that there are not Godly men in the CBF and you have not addressed the doctrinal position of the CBF.Do you agree with the doctrinal position of the CBF and are they Biblical?

3.I will simply continue to speak out against abuses that arise in the SBC, continue to preach Christ and Him crucified, and continue to keep the SBC as broad as possible in cooperation and love for all those who name the name of Jesus.

Here is the part that we disagree on and why I resist "your vision"
of the SBC.Its so broad that it includes heretics. An illustration....4-5-Apr-09 Enid, OK

Emmanuel Baptist Church Sun-8:30 & 11 AM, 6 PM
http://windrumors.com/
Is what Paul Young has written in "The Shack" Biblical?

4.All the above while remaining a committed Christian and a cooperative program giving, missions supporting, Bible believing Southern Baptist.

So Wade ...How many cooperative dollars is SH giving to the IMB or any other SBC entity.
Seems like less cooperative giving to me. You certainly have the right to do that but it does seem to put into question your cooperative support. Kinda like a Ford man driving a Honda.

From the Southern Baptist Geneva
Robert I Masters

Tom Parker said...

Robert:

How did we now move to the Shack and Heretics?

Anonymous said...

This is such an interesting topic that I have to comment.

We'll call this a pre-book review.

These are just my musings. They are not meant to be hurtful or judgmental toward anyone.

The funniest new reference to come from this blog is "CBFing Publisher." That is so good. Look for more "CBFing" labels in the future.

Wade is certainly entitled to record his recollections and perspective in a book. Others are equally entitled to do the same or to respond.

It does not surprise me that SH is publishing the book.

Many religious publishers might not want to publish it because it's a negative story. Sort of like someone who worked in the Vatican quitting and telling all of the bad things he saw.

Most secular publishers wouldn't see it as a book worth publishing, I suspect, because one has to be very "in the know" to want to read about the topic and players.

SH is a natural choice. They hate the SBC. No surprise there. They can be counted on to publish a book that tells about negative experiences within the SBC, especially written by someone who wants to stay in the SBC.

I do not believe that SH has any influence on the book. Having read Wade's blog for a while and having seen him at the convention, I have no doubt that Wade's feelings did not need to be "stoked" or built up by the publisher.

So, what you have with the selection of this publisher is a natural union for this project. A writer who is writing about a negative aspects of SBC life, and a publisher who likes to publish such stories. There is nothing unusual here.

What remains to be seen is the following:

1. How big a "splash" this book will make?

The segment of the SBC that follows Wade will celebrate it. The secular press will probably give it good reviews for a short time, also for purposes of saying something negative about the SBC. Bill Moyers may still be around, and might interview Wade. Trips to major divinity schools around the country may invite Wade to speak. The CBF will certainly promote the book, and may ask Wade to speak at various places, but I doubt Wade will get too involved with the CBF, based on what he has said previously. Remember, the CBFing press (there it is) called the Greensboro convention a fight between the older and younger fundamentalists in the SBC.

Wade is in the SBC and has his suggestions for improving or saving the SBC. The secular press and the CBFing press (there it is again) don't care a thing for that part of Wade's message.

2. Will the book ignite reforms in the SBC?

I don't know, but I doubt it. First, I don't suspect that the book will have any grand themes that we have not heard about before. Wade is very outspoken, and has not been shy about his feelings. I cannot imagine that he has held back any earth shattering revelations that he wasn't already willing to state heretofore. Beyond whether there will be new revelations, the question is whether some new argument or new form of presentation will make more people take up the changes that Wade suggests. That depends.

I saw Greensboro as the "perfect storm" as far as the presidential election goes. Dr. Page was elected, and as far as I can tell, did a good job by all accounts. I have not heard anyone describe Dr. Page's presidency as ushering in any major changes.

Moreover, after Greensboro, it seems that the SBC has reached an equilibrium, or a state of calm. San Antonio gave us the election of Jim Richards over Dr. Roger's son. The Garner Motion was a strategy to address some of the issues that Wade and others are concerned about, but as I have stated before, the Garner Motion does not say what some of its proponents meant for it to say, so we usually hear about what different people debating the motion said, rather than the language of the motion itself. At any rate, because it is poorly worded, it has no teeth, and is not a vehicle for change.

Indy brought us Johnny Hunt. He is a fine guy, but he is not a change agent in the SBC.

I believe that many people already agree with some of what Wade has said, but there positions are completely unrelated to what Wade has said or done. In other words, on some issues, we may be headed in Wade's direction, but not because of him. On some (not all) issues, Wade may reflect the thinking of a majority of Baptists rather than being the cause of their feelings.

3. How will the SBC institutions react?

I don't know. Lifeway may, in fact, sell the book. I would advise them to (but not give it a big roll out). It makes them look big and confident. But no one is asking me. They can put it in their "Read with discernment" program, as Lifeway does with other materials.

The IMB will probably issue some mild rebuttals, through Dr. Rankin, that will say something like this, "Wade Burleson was a trustee from 200? to 200?. The statement in his book are his own, and they are not shared by the IMB administration or the trustees. What we need all Southern Baptists to do is focus on the cause of missions and reaching the world for Christ, and not get side tracked by the memoir of one trustee who had disagreements with the vast majority of the Board, has hurt feelings and ultimately could not continue his service with the Board." SWBTS will say that the court has spoken on this, and that we don't have anything to add.

What will be interesting will be the reactions of individuals. I can guess about some people who will be in the book, but not about others. I am just not in the know enough. Their reactions will range from "I don't have anything to say about Burleson's book. I haven't read it" to "Burleson is not stable and is a grand stander, to boot. This guy has been casting about for an issue for years to gain prominence, and now he has re-package all of his grievances into one book as another attempt to get a following in the SBC. It's quite sad, really. This is why the trustees at the IMB couldn't get along him. It wasn't his opinions, per se, but his lack of maturity in relating to others and in his need to make mountains out of mole hills so that he could grab the spotlight"

Of course, the ultimate comeback would be to sue Wade if someone felt he had committed libel.

I would not recommend that under any circumstance. Wade is on really safe ground here because a lawsuit would be such a bad decision.

It would be a "he said, he said" fight with no clear winner. It would build Wade up, probably, rather than hurt him. Plus, the people who might be most tempted to do this could probably be more effective with humor and other devices that they can employ from their respective bully pulpits than they ever would be in a lawsuit.

4. Has Wade "big footed" Ben Cole?

Two negative SBC books in one or two years? How much hunger is out there for such books?

Ben better get writing. If he doesn't get moving soon, Dr. P and other players could be off the stage by the time Ben writes. That would make his book popular among a few faculty lounges, but that's it.

So, those are the most interesting questions posed by this forthcoming book, in my opinion.

Louis

debbiekaufman said...

It seems to me that both Louis and Robert Masters are worried, otherwise why all the comments that are not fact based? I am one that is glad the truth is finally being told. Changes need to occur and I believe to some degree they have. We have to move away from Religion to practicing Biblical Christianity which seems to be losing it's proper definition in our denomination.

CB Scott said...

Wade,

Will there be a big print edition?

cb

Robert I Masters said...

Debbie,
Not worried at all.
Do you support the "broad inclusion" of men like Paul Young.
If my church ever had him here in Nashville I promise i would put on my jetpack and fly away in a nanosecond.

From Nashville Tenn
Rob M

Tom Parker said...

Robert:

I have not read the Shack, so what is the problem with Paul Young?

B Nettles said...

Robert Masters said:So Wade ...How many cooperative dollars is SH giving to the IMB or any other SBC entity.

So Robert...How many cooperative dollars does Lifeway give to the IMB on a regular basis? And how do you know that SH was the first choice? Maybe they were, but do you know?

BTW, the IMB certainly didn't mind taking dollars directly from CBF churches who didn't want to run it through the CP. Where does that put the IMB, taking those dirty CBF dollars?

Wade said...

Robert Masters,

Have you had a conversation with Paul Young?

You sure seem to write people off that you probably have never even conversed with face to face.

You may be missing some rich relationships.

Robert I Masters said...

Wade,
Not interested in any conversation with Paul Young.
As you know he grew up in West Papua and I know of him; well.
Again it is not a personal dislike but rather the theology. It resides out of orthodox Christianity.

Nashville Rob

Tom Parker said...

Robert Masters:

I get the feeling that your theological circle is a very small one.

You just don't want to converse with very many people do you and it is always about the theology.

Debbie Kaufman said...

The Shack aided my family and I through a very difficult time this year. I will be there at least one if not two times.

Ron said...

Louis,
You seemed to feel that religious publishers would not want to publish Wade’s book because it is a negative story. Paul Pressler’s book was full of negative comments about SBC leaders. Jerry Sutton wrote a negative book about the SBC and it leaders and missionaries. In at least one of the instances he wrote about, I was personally involved in and know his comments to be untrue. So you see being negative is not a problem for religious publishers.

In case you did not catch my reply to your last remark in the WMU blog, I wanted to relieve your concern and let you know your information was inaccurate. Martin Bradley did put the resolution in the SBC annual and listed all those who spoke for and against and reported it passed exactly as his job required. He is an honorable man who always did his job fairly and professionally.
RW

Ron said...

Robert Masters,
You write as one who has a great deal of knowledge of the SBC and its history. You mention the Baptist Geneva. Would you help some of us to understand where you are coming from and if you have the experience to back up your accusations and attacks? How long have you been a Southern Baptist? Did you attend an SBC seminary? If so, when and which one. Are you employed by an SBC entity? If so, which one. Do you actually know anyone in the CBF? Your remarks are so caustic and combative I wonder where your opinions were formed.
Ron West

Anonymous said...

at least you didn't have to write anything new. it must have taken only a few hours to copy and paste off of your blog all the slanderous things you've said about the SBC and associated organizations. one day, there will be a reconciling of what you've said and the truth, and there will be a difference. YOU DON'T SEE THE WHOLE PICTURE! and the sad thing is that either you are not a learner enough to realize it or you've realized it and you are too proud to admit you are wrong.

Anonymous said...

I read references to "godly men in the CBF". Unless you are using men in a generic sense (mankind, etc.) your comment reveals a mindset. Many women turned to the CBF because they were made second-class citizens in the SBC, unlike the example of Jesus who treated women much better than the culture of that time.

I was saddened too at the split, since I grew up in what I will call a "traditional" Baptist church (as opposed to the many labels tossed around) and a family that was very active in church. I hate to think how my parents and grandmother would feel about the present-day SBC; my mother was still alive when it started and talked about her respect for those who were being villified by those leaders of the change then. Mainstream also works for my teminology and I do agree with their views. When the split came I felt I had no choice. I told people I had been through one divorce and didn't want to go through another, but was given no choice either time. I did not leave in either case, they left me. I went to one SBC meeting and saw small children being registered as messengers and busloads brought in at voting times while times of reports from missionaries and such were poorly attended. What does that tell you about those who voted the way they did? I remarked to a friend from the Dallas area that it was like attending a Cowboys game (with the taking sides) but not near as much fun.

I did write a check for the Lottie Moon offering last Sunday but that and the Annie Armstrong offering are about the only SBC entities I still support (since supposedly all that money goes for missionaries), and that somewhat reluctantly because I knew some of the missionaries who were fired or who left before they could get fired. Yet I know some who stayed or have gone since so I support them.

As for Smith & Helwys publishing Wade's book, does anyone actually believe that a publisher connected with the SBC would even touch it?! If you do, I could probably sell you oceanfront property in Oklahoma.

I missed most of the post on the WMU because of computer problems. WMU has been opposed from the start by men. A man questioned it at its beginning by saying that if they let the women get together to pray no telling what they would pray for. Women were not even allowed to give the WMU report to the SBC until the nineteen-teens; a man read it to the convention. (At least they beat the suffrage amendment, but not by much.) SBC leadership tried to take it over but the women refused. So the SBC leadership started a women's department in competition to WMU.

All the "women can't do this or that" is depriving God of half the potential helpers in spreading the Gospel. But it cuts competition for positions men want, so I guess that's the important thing for them.

Susie

Anonymous said...

The Shack is fiction. It could even be called religious fantasy if one puts it into a genre. Yes, God is portrayed as an African American woman, and later as a middle aged white man. Is that any worse than C.S. Lewis portraying Jesus as an animal (Aslan the lion) in the highly praised Narnia series? At least in the Shack the God entities are all human. It's fiction - I have no problem with either. If that's your only problem with the book - get over it.

Susie

Dr. Sheri Klouda said...

Hi Pastor Wade:
The Klouda family has so much to be grateful for this holiday season. We are together to celebrate and rejoice in Christ's birth. We would like to drive to Dallas to see the folks if possible, but we've run into some snags.

I rushed Pinky to the hospital a couple of weeks ago because he could not breath and he was experiencing chest pains. There was some discussion of putting him on oxygen at home, but we are not to that point yet. We had just paid off the last hospital bill from his previous admission, and we were ready to proceed on the defibrillator, and thought that we could consolidate the expenses. We asked that while he was there, that they would install the device, but they could not do it because it was the weekend. In addition, the admitting Doctor discovered he has serious blockage in his carotid arteries, however, they could not resolve that either because it was the weekend. Pinky is frustrated because we now have new outstanding hospital bills, but nothing substantive was done except for a new round of prescriptions. The end of the year is approaching quickly, and we will have new deductibles to pay in January. I have decided I may never get on top of all of this. Pinky tries to help load wood (we heat the family room with wood since the heat does not work in that room, and we have electric heat, which seems really expensive)and he becomes frustrated and has to sit down after each trip. He is also discouraged because he is a traditional guy, and he is not used to not working at all to help the family, especially at Christmas time. He tried to go to the mall alone, and his legs hurt him so much he had to come home. He really enjoys buying presents for people he loves, so he is really struggling with this holiday. He works in his garage (he enjoys woodworking) but it is really cold and he cannot stay out there very long. We are keeping our eyes open for some kind of heater he could use out there. I would appreciate it if folks would pray for his spiritual and emotional health at this time, since I believe he thinks God has given up on him.

Abigail is applying to colleges, and those fees as well as the costs of impending graduation, SATs and sports fees have crept up on us. She keeps her end of the bargain by trying hard in school and being involved in community service projects. Bob Cleveland's pastor sent us a Walmart gift card yesterday, and we were able to buy groceries and the ingredients for Christmas cookies and such. Bob and his wife sent a gift as well, and keeps in touch with us regularly. God has been so gracious towards us.

I have applied for promotion (I will hear in February) and I will be the new director for the Masters in Religious Studies Graduate Program beginning in January. I just finished some small writing assignments, and after the editing is finished, they will be complete. I also recently signed a book contract for a commentary on Micah, so professionally, things are going well.

May the Lord bless you all richly,
the Hebrew Professor

Rex Ray said...

Little Mary Sunshine,
With your thinking, it would make no difference if we took the name of Jesus out of the Bible.

Louis,
Been busy…haven’t forgotten…‘Sunshine’ was too tempting and short.

Hurray for Wade’s book. Its cover is more eye catching than Russell Dilday’s picture of pillars, but I doubt Wade’s book can be more revealing.

How popular will Wade’s be? The last time I checked, Wade hadn’t read Dilday’s, but his eyes may be more open now.

Wanda said...

Susie said,

"All the "women can't do this or that" is depriving God of half the potential helpers in spreading the Gospel."

This has been my position as well. The end result of treating women as second-class citizens in Southern Baptist churches is that God's work is being greatly hindered.

Satan must be delighted that over half the SBC workforce has been sidelined. That's quite an accomplishment!!!

Anonymous said...

Debbie:

Please do not put words in my mouth. I am not worried. I am wondering.

Louis

Rex Ray said...

Sheri,
I had not read your comment that put tears on my face after I commented. I’m ashamed my cold ingredients were next to yours.

Tell Pinky God still cares and his followers do also.

CB Scott said...

Susie,

Do you really think half the workforce has been sidelined?

If a local church is truly congregational both women and men are called and commissioned of God to carry out the Great Commission.

No pastor can do all of the required ministry on his own.

A church which only allows men to be in leadership is not going to minister in the whole and be very limited in the specific.

A congregational church, in order to truly fulfill the GC, must not only involve men and women, but those we call youth and children who know Christ into the ministry of the church.

One thing that churches need to address is this concept that youth and children are the "church of the future" and nothing more than an appendage of the body that cannot become functional until a later date.

cb

Anonymous said...

Ron:

Thanks for the response. I am surmising that a book like Wade's would not be attractive to many religious publishers because it is negative. If Wade shopped the manuscript around to other religious publishers, we might know. But he is not required to do that, anyway.

Paul Pressler's book is a biography of his life as well as a retrospective on a 20 year historical debate in the nation's largest Protestant denomination. I read that book and am not surprised that many people would have wanted to publish it.

I am sure that because of his SBC perspectives that you did not like Judge Pressler's book and that you probably do not like Judge Pressler (I don't know if you know him personally, however).

However, Judge Pressler is recognized both inside and outside the SBC as a major religious figure, especially for a layman. He has served on a number of Christian Boards outside the SBC, including Salem Radio Network, the National Religious Broadcasters (I think) etc. He is recognized in Europe and other parts of the world. Most recently he was selected to attend a major conference in the Middle East in Qatar (sp?), I believe, and may have been the first Baptist ever to have attended that conference.

So, yes, his book had some negative things to say about the SBC leadership from 1960 to 1980. But given its biographical nature and the historical take, it was different, I suspect, from what Wade has written.

Jerry Sutton's book (which I have not read) is also historical and covers a long period of time, I believe.

I am not criticizing Wade's book. I haven't read it. But I do believe it is more of a "tell all" about his take on the current state of some SBC quarters (not things that happened years ago), so it may be something that other religious publishers might not want to wade (no pun intended) into. Because of its anti-SBC bent, SH would have no qualms about it.

Of course, I could be all wet. For all I know, Wade could have received offers from a dozen religious publishers. And of course, there are publishers and then there are publishers. I am talking about major religious publishing houses. Not small shops that you, I or anyone else can set up nowadays. I am sure there's a bunch of those that will publish this book.

Ron, you seem to know something about the incident I raised about Martin Bradley because of the way you reacted. I do seem to recall that Mr. Bradley was criticized for making a significant error related to a resolution, and I believed that it dealt with inerrancy. Are you certain that in his office Mr. Bradley did not make an error and failed to include an important item of business in the Annual? If so, what am I talking about? Have I got my facts confused?

If I have my facts confused, forgive me. I will get that straightened out.

But I am almost positive that my recollections are not off base. Please let me know if I am totally wrong and Mr. Bradley was never charged with goofing up big time in his office, or conversely, let me know if I just got a detail wrong, and it was some other piece of business that he goofed up.

By the way, I am sure that Mr. Bradley was a fine man. I was not referring to his moral character. Only my recollections of the criticism he faced for the discharge of his corporate office.

If you say there was never any such goof up (and I can't tell if you are really saying that or something less than that, but not clearly), then so be it.

I really do want to be accurate in what I say on here as to facts. My opinions are just those - opinions, and we all have them.

You always do so well in responding, and I appreciate your thoughts.

Take care.

Louis

Anonymous said...

"Most secular publishers wouldn't see it as a book worth publishing, I suspect, because one has to be very "in the know" to want to read about the topic and players."

Wow Louis, so you know about the book publishing world, too?

One thing Wade has going for him that others like him, don't, is blog stats. If everyone who reads this blog (even those who never comment) buy the book, it could be quite high for that particular market niche. It is not like he needs the NYT Bestseller list like numbers.

You have done an excellent job of planting seeds of poison about the book. YOu do a great job of trying to come across as the neutral attorney giving his humble opinions but many see through it. I am sure your cronies at the SBC give you lots of pats on the back, though.

I did have to laugh over your insistence that Pressler's book was 'historical', in that it covered a longer period of time and how he is so respected. Oh and HIS negativity about the SBC is warranted. But not Wade's. So, why not give us the numbers sold of Pressler's book? Oh, and the venues it was sold in. Were churches selling it? Was it being promoted by his CR cronies at conferences? Promoted at seminaries? Perhaps even required for a seminary class?

Your comments about this book...your early 'review' are quite telling. I agree with Debbie. You seem worried. That is a lot of 'analysis' for someone who is just wondering. YOu were a bit too obvious on this one. You could have saved a lot of time and written:

Pressler good. Wade bad.

Lydia

Anonymous said...

"But I am almost positive that my recollections are not off base. Please let me know if I am totally wrong and Mr. Bradley was never charged with goofing up big time in his office, or conversely, let me know if I just got a detail wrong, and it was some other piece of business that he goofed up."

Is Mr. Bradley still around? Why not look him up, Louis, and ask him to explain what happened.

In any event, you have made it clear here that you think Mr. Bradley goofed up big time on SOMETHING.

Louis, you have a 'nice' way of playing 'dirty'. YOu learned well from your CR cronies.

CB Scott said...

Why don't we just all wait and read the book before we critique it?

cb

Anonymous said...

I think you should add another chapter and call it "Wade Burleson - The Duke of Hazzard".

That way when the movie comes out you can get P. Patterson to play Boss Hogg. :)

Someone said "I did write a check for the Lottie Moon offering last Sunday but that and the Annie Armstrong offering are about the only SBC entities I still support..."

To which I say THANK YOU!!!

SL1M

davidbmclaughlin.com said...

Here is my review of The Shack. Glad to know the author will be in Enid. I may have to make a trip up there!

dm

Tom Parker said...

Did anyone else notice there was nothing in Wade's post about the Shack. Trying to have guilt by association--a great CR tactic that has worked so well in the past.

Conservatives fighting conservatives--amazing!!

greg.w.h said...

CB Scott wrote:

Greg harvey,

Wade says:

"A signature represents the character and courage necessary to follow the leadership of the Holy Spirit in your life. Anonymous contributions don't."

Is that synonymous with me saying Anonys are cowards?

Just asking.


Since the very beginning when I've commented on Wade's site, I've constructed arguments and pithy responses against anonymous comments. So I have a strong preference towards people making some attempt to communicate exactly who they are. This is just a basic disclaimer of my position before I answer your question.

I think you and Wade are both correct in forwarding an expectation of ownership of comments and of putting signatures under comments. I recognize that your use of the word "coward" is intended to coerce the same response--using a negative presentation--that Wade is attempting with his more tactful, positive one.

And I recognize that the world--and Christians as well--too often requires BOTH the carrot and the stick in order to be motivated to behavior that is both civil and respectful. And I agree that using anonymity to make comments that one does not fully own is both uncivil and unrespectful.

So at some level, yes the two are synonymous. But hearers hear the two messages differently.

But I'm also more than a little cynical of the concept that there are ideas that are more important than the relationships we have with God and with other people. I'm not saying that the ideas of the Gospel are less important than the relationship, but that outside of the context of relationship, they are sterile and cannot reproduce 10-fold, 20-fold, and 100-fold. And I extend that cynicism to those who use anonymity to push ideas when it is clear the purpose of the ideas they are pushing is to condescend to an audience.

This last cynicism I'm a little more familiar with on a personal level. I am a PK and an MK. I know from experience that ministers OFTEN get the cart before the horse with respect to how they relate to their family v. how they relate to their ministry. And I'm painfully aware that some of them will stand in a pulpit and preach on areas that God is convicting them but to which they are not responding. I have become overwhelmed at time with my frustration with that kind of behavior and I compare it precisely to anonymous posts.

It's standing from a safe location and lobbing criticism without owning the application of that criticism to ones own situation in life. And I consistently apply the term "hypocritical" to it. See my previous comment to Peter Lumpkins for an equivalent application of the same complaint.

That isn't to say I'm perfect and without sin in this regard. And I very well may come across exactly as I complain when others read my writing. This is why I go deep in attempting to explain my thoughts and reasoning process: my hope is that if you can understand where I'm coming from, you'll also understand why I arrive at the conclusions--and the sometimes "bombastic" comments--that I make.

Did I answer your question?

Greg Harvey

P.S. I actually didn't have the chance to read the comments after my last post until this morning. My apologies to anyone I left hanging in the interim including Robert I. Masters. I probably won't have time until our expected winter storm hits today to comment further, either.

NativeVermonter said...

By refraining from reading anonymous posts and/or anonymous comments, my time is up and my aggravation is down.

Rick said...

Wade,

Sincere congratulations on getting this book published. I am looking forward to reading it!

Tim G said...

Wade,
An idea to think about:
"free copies to all bloggers!" Then a blog free for all review tournament!

:)

Anonymous said...

Lydia and Anony:

Wow! Poison. CR cronies. Worried.

I am not going to say anything unkind about you, and I would appreciate it if you would do the same and keep this on a friendly level.

I have admitted that I have not read Wade's book, and therefore have not commented on its contents, except the chapter titles.

I actually gave some context to why I believe Wade went with SH as the publisher as opposed to other religious publishers or secular publishers. It is strictly arm chair analysis, which I have said could be wrong, as Wade's book could have been accepted by several publishers. I was responding to people who said Wade went to SH because he was a moderate. I do not believe that. Wade supported the CR, as I did. But I do think that SH would like to publish books that show any negative side of the SBC. No one can really contest that.

All I did was ask 4 questions:

1. How big a splash will the book make?

2. Will the book ignite reforms in the SBC?

3. How will the SBC respond?

4. Has Wade "big footed" Ben Cole. (which was made facetiously).

Then, I gave my thoughts.

I would be glad to hear any opinions that either of you have about those questions. You don't have to give your thoughts on those questions, but it would be interesting to hear them.

Finally, I did not bring Judge Pressler's book into this. I was asked (in a respectful email) about Judge Pressler's book. I was asked why religious publishers published his book. I suggested that they might see or have seen it differently. I suggested its biographical nature, the fact that it addressed matters which were passed (the controversy was over), and the fact that Judge Pressler is a person of some renown as an almost 80 year old (I am guessing) Baptist layman as differences in the two books.

These are the differences between the books.

I could be wrong. Maybe publishers see them the same.

So, I have no problem at all with your disagreeing with me at all. And I truly would enjoy hearing your thoughts on those questions.

If it possible, however, I would appreciate your refraining from personal attacks. I have not attacked you or Wade, and I would not do so.

These blogs are fun when we all get together and discuss our ideas. I like discussing things with Ron West, even though we disagree, because Ron always deals with facts and is respectful. I have a great appreciation for him, and hope to meet him someday.

We can continue to dialogue on this, and I would enjoy that very much. I would not enjoy hearing anymore invective hurled at me, or any guesses about my undisclosed, true motives or thoughts.

Thanks, in advance.

Oh, by the way, I will try to find out the info about Martin Bradley because I want to be accurate about that.

Louis

Kevin M. Crowder said...

Dr. Klouda,

A humble suggestion: Posting by the NAME/URL option, especially on this blog as it is becoming more and more widely used, opens you up to the possibility of an imposter and thus would in the future bring suspicion on your legitimate posts. You can quite easily set up a Google account without having a blog. This would then protect your words.

k

Anonymous said...

As far as the circulation of Judge Pressler's book, I think I remember hearing that a copy was sent to all SBC churches or pastors (I forget which). Someone who knows for sure might correct me on this, since I can't remember where I heard it and it's been awhile.

About women and youth/children being sidelined: I read that there is coming a shortage of pastors/priests in many denominations. Yet women are told they cannot do this in many groups. I know women who have felt called to pastor or other leadership denied them in SBC circles and have gone to other denominations to do so. Baptist churches in my state have gotten pressure because of ordaining women as deacons. I am glad that in my church women and youth read scripture and lead prayers in church services, though I can remember when this wasn't done except possibly on a Youth Sunday, and I wouldn't be surprised if my church is an exception on this.

Susie

CB Scott said...

Greg harvey,

Thanks for an honest answer.

Refreshing. Very refreshing.

cb

Paul Burleson said...

Greg Harvey

I have to say that I enjoy and gain almost as much from your comments as I do the posts, principles or people about which you are commenting. I have read your comments on several blogs I follow and have found your consistency and thoughtfulness to be refreshing.

Someone may ask if I AGREE with all you say? The answer is I agree so much with HOW you say what you say, WHY you say what you say, and THAT you say what you say that I'm just now investigating if I agree with WHAT you say. [Were I a betting baptist I'll bet I agree with so much of it that I wouldn't even mention that little bit I MIGHT find with which I do not agree. :)]

Now from the "for what it's worth" department. I've known Daniel Vestal for more years than I can count. He recently sent me a copy of his new book in fact. He also preached the greatest message on the Cross I had ever heard up to then and have not heard a better one since.

While Daniel and I have gone different directions as to bodies/organizations with which we connect and through which we minister, I can tell you that he [and many others in the CBF I know] are NOT of the "money changers" character that Jesus drove out of the Temple. Quite the contrary, Daniel is more of the "In whom is no guile" group.

Were I to ask him, he might agree that his organization has some characters that may lack some character as I would say of my own SBC organization. But we both would probably agree [I will not speak definitively for him] that we would rather talk about ideas and theology and leave the character judging [since we don't know another's heart] to the One who has a day and the authority to see that such judging is done then.

So that I can stay on post I'll say... I've read the book. It is perhaps the best of that genre I've EVER read and I've been doing it sixty some years. If someone thinks I'm blinded by relationship..their thinking is vacuous of reality.

Anonymous said...

Wade, I'm looking forward to getting your book for our church library. Paul, I enjoyed reading your kind remarks concerning Dan Vestal. I, too, have been impressed that he, indeed, seems to be a person of "no guile."

Wade does your church still receive gifts for the Kloudas?

Florence in KY

CB Scott said...

Paul,

A hardy A-amen about Vestal.

And let me echo your position as my own:

"If someone thinks I'm blinded by relationship..their thinking is vacuous of reality."

cb

Paul Burleson said...

CB,

I'm not surprised you agree about Daniel. Older guys [not OLD] like us know him...not about him.

I have received an "hilarious" response personally about my use of "vacuous" in my comment. It is enough to say if I didn't on occasion use a word someone has to look up, how would my fantastic linguistic abilities ever be known? On second thought they probably know I had to look it up first... so who do I think I'm fooling? :)

Dr. Sheri Klouda said...

Kevin:
I want to thank you for the advice concerning a google account. I am not familiar with posting on blog sites and I would not want anyone trying to impersonate me. I appreciate your concern.
Blessings,
The Hebrew Professor

Rick said...

Wade,

Would you consider posting a "teaser chapter"??????

Wade Burleson said...

Rick,

Unfortunately, the contract I signed prevents pre-publication posting of the written contents, except for a description and overview of the book (as in chapter titles).

Thanks for asking though!

CB Scott said...

Dr. Klouda,

I met you once long ago. I am sure you would not remember.

I have contacted you by mail a couple of times. I also sent a word of encouragement to you through Bob Cleveland this last summer.

I just want to say, I admire your grit and your dedication to family.

cb

Wade Burleson said...

IRS regulations require that we adopt people, churchwide, as a benevolent concern. We did so for the Klouda family, and hopefully, our church was able to help them through some tough times. Our deacons, after several months, closed the Klouda Benevolent fund, which simply means we cannot grant a tax deduction. However, we would encourage anyone who desires to help Dr. Klouda to do so. I would encourage you to contact Sheri or Pinky directly, and if possible, use their home church in Indiana.

Thanks for asking!

Wade

CB Scott said...

Paul,

I was talking to a "younger" guy just recently.

I told him that "upon reflection it is my opinion Daniel Vestal got caught in a crossfire as did several others fellows of that time we now call the CR."

cb

Rick said...

Wade,

One thing I learned while I lived in Africa is that if you don't ask, you don't get.

So, with that, if your contract prohibits your publishing a chapter, how about EMAILING me one! ;-)

Anonymous said...

ADVENT

December 18: "O Adonai..." (O Lord and Ruler of the House of Israel)

Prose Version:

O Adonai, et dux domus Israel, qui Moysi in igne flammae rubi apparuisti, et ei in Sina legem dedisti: veni ad redimendum nos in brachio extento.

O Lord, and Ruler of the House of Israel, who appearedst unto Moses in the flame of a burning bush, and gavest to him the Law in Sinai: Come to redeem us with a stretched out arm.

Alternate Prose Translation: O LORD AND RULER of the House of Israel, who appeared to Moses in the flame of the burning bush and gave him the law on Sinai: COME, and redeem us with outstretched arms.

Poetic Version:
Veni, Veni, Adonai,
Qui populo in Sinai
Legem dedisti vertice
In maiestate gloriae.

O come, O come, thou Lord of might,
Who to Thy tribes on Sinai's height
In ancient times didst give the law
In cloud, and majesty, and awe.

Scriptural Citations:

Isaiah 11:4-5: "But He shall judge the poor with justice, and decide aright for the land’s afflicted. He shall strike the ruthless with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked. Justice shall be the band around his waist, and faithfulness a belt upon his hips."

Isaiah 33:22: "Indeed the Lord will be there with us, majestic; yes the Lord our judge, the Lord our lawgiver, the Lord our king, he it is who will save us."

See also Exodus 3; Micah 5:2; Matthew 2:6.

From Sarum "O" Antiphons for Advent

Anonymous said...

Wade:

On an unrelated matter that you brought up, let me say that I am impressed with your church's handling of the IRS regs and gifts.

It is amazing how many lay people come to us who want to claim a tax deductible donation by writing our church a check, so that the church can then write the check to some ministry or person that the giver wants to benefit.

We had to nip that in the bud when we first started our church.

Not only is it a violation of IRS rules (which is bad enough), but it really circumvents the entire church strategy regarding budgets. The church should set the priorities for giving to ministries etc., and then members can give to the church. If people use the church to "wash" their own charitable giving, that is not only illegal, it is unhealthy.

I am glad to see that your church does things the right way.

Take care.

Louis

P.S. You made the right call having your book published in a "hard" format, but didn't Stephen King publish a book on the internet in installments? I don't know how he got paid, but I seem to remember that. Too late now, however.

greg.w.h said...

CB & Paul:

Thanks for the kind comments. I feel the obligation of love to seek to reflect the reason that we so closely associate with this season.

Greg Harvey

Anonymous said...

Dear Louis,

You may be incorrect about the limited appeal of Wade's book to a wider audience.

You forgot to think about the classic THEMES involved.

Those themes are a retelling of the ancient human dichotomies of:

A. 'the ends justify the means'

VERSUS

B. 'integrity and respect for
others, even at personal
costs'

There are, of course, many other thematic strands involved which are transcendental and powerful.

Wade spoke truth to power.
It cost him.
He has the gravitas to tell this story and the themes of the story will resonate among all readers who believe that even one person can make a difference. And Louis, that is a LOT OF PEOPLE.

Audience? Limited?

Sorry, Louis, it is not going to be. I, myself, will read this book with a highlighter and pass it to a friend of mine who is a former book reviewer. She has also written essays for the New York Times Magazine. She is well-known among the local literati of our metropolitan area and is also the director of Hebrew education for a local synogogue. She will share with me her opinion, I'm sure.
I will also pass my copy around to others whose opinions and reflections I value.

Why try to put the horse back into the stable now? As soon as those missionaries were 'let go', or 'forced out', a red light started blinking. It is going to get brighter and brighter and more and more people will learn of what happened.

Yes, a story with a new setting and new characters,
but nevertheless it is the tale of the ancient struggle between Forces which will battle it out until the end of time.

Wade has got the moral authority to tell this story. He will have an audience, I assure you. L's

Tim G said...

Wade,
I will add my "good job" in handling the Kloudia account! So many do not know they are violating the law in this area.

Now, what about my other idea???

Tom Parker said...

L's:

Wade's story is a story that really needs to be told. If conservatives treated a conservative this way--we can only guess the hardball played with those they deemed Liberal. I shudder at all the many people who were hurt by their tactics.

CB Scott said...

Tom,

I would like to ask you a question if I may.

Were you active in SBC life to a large degree during the CR?

cb

Anonymous said...

Nashville and Fort Worth reporting in:

The Publisher is Judas Press.

:)


BH Carroll and Crew

Anonymous said...

L's:

I am sure with your good promotion work, the book will go far. I will keep you in mind if I ever write a book.

But in all fairness, I never said that the book would have a limited audience. Please don't put words in my mouth.

Please re-read my Question 1 in my original comment, and my thoughts following the question.

I did suggest that secular (major) publishers may not want to publish this book because of how "in the know" the readers would be to care about it. I don't know how often secular readers pick up books on the internal affairs of denominations and whether that affects publishing decisions.

Louis

Anonymous said...

L's:

I have a quick question. I see from time to time some articles about the disagreements in the Catholic Church, particularly in the U.S.

With the structure of the Catholic Church, how does the Pope play hardball? Does he have any real impact on congregations in North America?

And when Priests or congregations and groups here in the U.S. raise issues like, say, abortion, women priests, etc., how does the Vatican handle that?

I ask because I really have no clue. You guys have no convention where messengers vote or anything.

How does the Vatican enforce policy on the clergy and laity in the Catholic Church?

Are there any Catholic blogs that you frequent that are similar to this one where I could follow or read up on the latest developments.

Thanks.

Louis

Tom Parker said...

Louis:

You said "SH is a natural choice. They hate the SBC."

That is a mighty strong statement.

Can you elaborate?

Christian Thinker! said...

L's,
Excellent response to Louis.

Anonymous said...

1. How big a splash will the book make?

That depends on your definition of 'splash'. Once it sells, I can just hear the Louisonian arm chair analyis...it will probably go like this...

All indicators point to the fact that the book sold way under expectations and mainly to the CBF and moderate (your favorite word) types which renders it ineffective to cause any signficant change to the SBC. :o)

On the other hand, many SBC leaders will probably be reading a copy they had their secretary buy with unmarked bills which will be read under the covers with a flashlight and a curt denial of having read it,if asked.

2. Will the book ignite reforms in the SBC?

How do you define reform? Motions to the convention? Decrease in giving? Delegates demanding an accounting? Churches withdrawing from the SBC?

These things can be measured a zillion different ways. The problem is knowing what to measure and for how long. I don't think it will close seminaries or have folks fired. Any internal reform would probably never be known by the peasants. They tend to want to hide that sort of thing to save face.

You still have a lot of 'cult of personality' within the SBC.

3. How will the SBC respond?

The leadership will probably start a whisper campaign but we probably won't see much public response. Why give the book publicity? If anything, maybe a carefully crafted release lamenting Wade's regretable decision to be 'bitter' and 'revengeful' even though 'we tried to reason with him'.That sort of thing. I do not think we will see any 'fall on your face in repentance'.

4. Has Wade "big footed" Ben Cole. (which was made facetiously).

I have no idea what this means.

Your 'mistrusting the reason for your analysis'friend,

Lydia

Kevin M. Crowder said...

"How big a splash will the book make? "

This is a book designed for a niche market. Even if B&H would have published the book, the SBC market would be relatively small. The interest in this book will be from all the Baptist folks to the left of the SBC or the left wing of the SBC in itself. It will sell in the Christian academic world as pure entertainment only. If LifeWay sells it, it will be as buried as Dr. Mohler's books but for different reasons. If the book sells 100,000 copies I will fall out of my chair and will have greatly underestimated the appeal of the content. But still at that level you are putting over a 1/4 million in the coffers at SH and prolly a 100-150k in Wade's pocket. He is probably already spending the 10k advance on each of his faithful blog commenters for Christmas. This is a win/win for all except those mentioned in the book.

To be serious for a moment, we need to all pray that the effects of this book will ultimately glorify God through positive change. We need to pray that Wade's intents are God glorifying, we need to pray for each and every reader. We need to pray that His will be done. Because at this point what is done is done. Quite an opportunity for prayer and supplication.

Anonymous said...

Hello L's,

I would like to echo Louis' comment to you regarding the catholic church.

I am only thinking out-loud here and mean no ill will toward you. We have been round and round this already so please read my comment here in the best possible way. But I am still struggling with your interest here.

You have made it clear that you do not believe in salvation by grace alone and that you hold to a typical catholic position in all things "church". I think it is fair to say that you are at odds with 98% of the commenters here including the blog host on this MOST important fact. That's right, even more important than any other issue discussed here. Women's role, Men's role, Liberals, Moderates, Neo-labels, Calvinism, Christmas pageants,...you name it. They are all secondary to that one fact.

I guess my point is this. In my somewhat limited knowledge of the catholic church, I would think that no one does the "hardball religion" better than your religion. And yet, you are here trying to help Baptists get our "act together"?

I know you have said it's because we Baptists have the beliefs of your grandmother, but that sure seems strange. I can't imagine with my life's schedule to have room to fight and defend issues that were important to my grandparents many years ago.

Sincerely looking for understand.

Still.

Thanks for considering my thoughts.

SL1M

Anonymous said...

Lydia:

Nicely done!

I don't agree, of course, but I recognize good work when I see it.

If you have any friends in PR work, ask them what "Big Footing" is.

Louis

Anonymous said...

Tom Parker:

SH was formed as a protest to Lifeway and the SBC.

Below is an AP article from 2001, in case you missed it on the founding of the company and some of its work. Also, you can go to the SH website and check out their "Theological Affirmations."

Hate is a strong word. Of course, when used to describe a corporation (SH), or an athletic team for example (Oklahoma hates Texas), most people contextualize it, and don't think back to their mothers telling them, "now, Johnny, you should never hate anybody." Surely we haven't come to this in the use of the English language.

Hope you find the article interesting.

I am wondering if Rex Ray would agree that this is what is produced by what he called "the moderate recipe for understanding the Bible?"

Posted on Apr 17, 2001 | by Richard N. Ostling
EDITORS' NOTE: Reprinted in full by permission of the Associated Press.


NEW YORK --The part-way schism in America's biggest Protestant denomination, the 15.9 million-member Southern Baptist Convention, is heating up again.

In it, a self-described "moderate" minority charges that conservatives (which it calls "fundamentalists") have taken control of seminaries and denominational agencies in order to enhance leaders' power.

There are power games aplenty, to be sure, but the fight revolves around matters of religious principle. In particular, the conservatives believe all details in the Bible are factual history and want teachers and policy-makers to defend that view, while the moderates favor flexibility in interpreting the Bible.

In addition, those running the denomination fall to the right in political attitudes.

One element in the split is a publishing house in Macon, Ga., named Smyth & Helwys. This company was founded a decade ago by moderates to compete with the official Southern Baptist publisher in Nashville, Tenn., which they find unacceptably right-wing.

Now the young firm is launching an ambitious 31-volume "Smith & Helwys Commentary Series" on the Bible. The Southern Baptists would never have sponsored the newly issued first volume, which covers 1 Kings and 2 Kings. Author Walter Brueggemann, a professor at Columbia Theological Seminary in Decatur, Ga., may be prolific, but he isn't even a Baptist.

More important, he's way too liberal for Nashville.

The books of Kings cover the death of David and the rise of Solomon in 962 B.C. down through the divided kingdoms of northern Israel and southern Judah, to the fall of Judah to Babylon in 587 B.C.

Is this accurate history? Brueggemann tells us that "to term this literature 'history' in any modern sense of an accurate 'factual' account of that past is widely recognized to be deeply problematic."

In his view, the details are "not consistently reliable," the material is often "confusing and unclear," and the books don't always confirm what is known from the limited sources we have outside the Bible.

He says this narrative doesn't intend to be history as modern readers understand that term. Instead, it's better understood as "theological commentary and not factual reportage."

Conservative Baptists would reject that rigid either-or choice. To them, the Bible is both fact and commentary.

Getting down to specifics, Brueggemann doubts Solomon's kingdom reached from the Euphrates River in the north to the borders of Egypt (1 Kings 4:21). To him, this is an "imaginative expansion" of the actual territory and came from the ancient promise God gave Abraham in Genesis 15:18.

He also thinks the depiction of Solomonic splendor in 1 Kings 10 doesn't necessarily describe the actual situation but the king's place "in the imagination of Israel."

On the other hand, Brueggemann sees more credibility in these accounts than do the radical skeptics of the "minimalist" school, who claim the whole business is fiction.

On politics as well, Brueggemann's provocative comments follow a liberal line.

Solomon's kingdom is "a parable for the affluent success and domination of the U.S. as the last superpower," he writes. The "surface appearance" of the realm is impressive, but underneath, barely hidden, lies a "dangerous and growing gap between wealth and poverty."

So 1 Kings "illuminates our own distorted economy dependent on bloated military expenditure to maintain a consumer economy of seemingly limitless indulgence."

The story in 1 Kings 11 ends sadly with Solomon straying from fidelity to the one true God through involvement with foreign women and their gods. For Brueggemann, this passage raises the question of whether political dissent, revolution, and even terrorism may be means through which God may terminate power.

That doesn't seem likely in the case of the Irish Republican Army fighting Britain or the Palestinian conflict against Israel, he figures. But he does see biblical parallels in the Berrigan brothers' protests at U.S. military installations, or the successful revolutions that brought down the Shah of Iran and the apartheid regime in South Africa.
--30--
Ostling writes about religion for the AP and is a former senior correspondent with TIME magazine. He and his wife, Joan, are the authors of "Mormon America," a 1999 HarperSanFrancisco release about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Louis

debbiekaufman said...

L's good response. Of course I seem to be agreeing with much of what you write. :)

Anonymous said...

Dear LOUIS and SLIM,

LOUIS, thank you for your questions concerning my blogging on Catholic sites.
Actually, I do not. I am in grieving for my father and my time with my faith is personal and sacred as I mourn his loss and celebrate that he is with Our Lord.
My time with my faith is spent in prayer and service in Christ's Name and in the blessed memory of my father.

What I have noticed on the web is this: frequently a site will present itself as 'Catholic' and it is not at all catholic. Also, much info is on the web about my faith which is not accurate.

If a person has a question about my faith, I recommend this: that you go to see a priest and ask questions. Or, if it would be more comfortable for you, go to a convent, knock on the door, and ask if you can speak with one of the nuns. That way, I know you will be getting correct information. No one will turn you away or try to convert you. We are not like that.

I have been Catholic for most of my life and have taught in a Catholic School. I graduated from a Catholic Prep School and have received training from the Sisters of St. Lucy Filipini whose mother house is in New Jersey.
I do not care to discuss the doctrines of my faith on Wade's blog, out of respect for Wade and for the feelings of others here.
However, I can say this: it is
my faith that inspires me to support the church of my grandmother. The 'leadership' of the SBC today does NOT represent the church of my grandmother of blessed memory, which, I know, was part of the Mystical Body of Christ to which all Christians belong.

I hope this response helps you. If I have caused offense by misinterpreting what you wrote, I apologize. Especially in the light of the Spirit of the Season.
L's

P.S. to SLIM:

You wrote that you could not understand why I would defend issues important to my grandmother's church.
In my religion, we are very CONNECTED to all Christians living and dead through the Body of Christ.

You did not know my grandmother who cared for many people during some very bad times in our country. She actively lived her Christianity and fed many who came to her door during and after the Depression. She would serve them with her own hands and sit down next to them and keed them company when they ate. That is just a little example of the legacy she left me. Knowing what has happened to her church fills me with much sadness. I sincerely DO care about what has happened. If anything, my OWN religion has inspired this caring.

WHY do not more Southern Baptists feel as I do? For the sake of their OWN church? So many warning signs that the SBC is in trouble and, still, so little response?

I am the one who does not understand. I'm sorry. L's

Anonymous said...

L's:

You have never offended me. I have never tried to offend you, and hope that I have succeeded.

As far as I am concerned, you are welcome on this blog any time.

I became very close to some Catholic believers in law school. Actually, some of the best writers today who try to address theological concerns and the law are Catholic. It is no mistake, I think, that several members of the U.S. Supreme Court are Catholic. Baptists do not have the heritage that Catholics do, that goes back several hundred years, dealing with the law and God. Starting with Augustine, I suppose.

I was not interested in learning the particulars of the Catholic faith, but rather whether there are Catholic blog sites, like this Baptist blog sites where people post, discuss, spout off, whatever. And I was interested in how the Church and the Holy Father address this.

From your response, I see that you don't go to Catholic sites to discuss theology, but only go to this Baptist site. We are lucky. They are missing out.

Maybe I can find some sites from another source.

Take care.

Louis

Anonymous said...

Hi LOUIS,

It's me, L's

Take my advice: ask a priest or a nun for help. They surely can give you some accurate direction to Catholic web sites and perhaps even to some well-known Catholic blog sites.

I do have news for you:
you will find quite a variety of OPINIONS among catholics. We may in our faith share the same doctrines, but not the same opinions.
Let me explain.
We are asked to consult the Church's teachings on matters of faith and morals.
HOWEVER, we are then required by our faith to pray to God for the guidance of the Holy Spirit AND to obey our consciences on all matters pertaining to faith and morals, as we will answer to HIM ON THE DAY OF THE LORD.

So. No lock-step.
Example? Here's one:
Many Catholic men and women, including priests and nuns, have worked to increase the responsibility of women in our Church. This work has led to women now being allowed to be Eucharistic Ministers.
My father, on the last day of his life, received communion from the hospice supervisor who came to see him that morning. She was a Eucharistic Minister and offered to give all of us communion.
Thank God for the work of these people, so that women in my Church can more actively serve Christ.

I hope you find what you are looking for.
Sometimes, we are defined more by the questions we ask and by what we seek.
Louis, always keep your focus on Christ at the center of your faith and you cannot go wrong. I wish the SBC 'leadership' had done that also. I think they didn't and they got a little bit lost when they started hurting the missionaries and Dr. Klouda. L's

Anonymous said...

L's - Sorry to hear of the death of your father. I hope this season brings joyful memories of time spent with him.

SL1M

Ron said...

Louis,
I am saying that there was no goof up on Martin Bradley’s part. He handled the resolution in question just as all other resolutions at that convention were handled and the same way they are handled today. You report the resolution, those speaking for and against and the outcome. The goof up was on Pressler’s part. He wanted to insert additional information into the proceedings that were not meant to be placed in that forum.
This brings to mind the time there was a vote on an item related to Pressler at the SBC convention by a show of hands. Herb Holinger reported the vote as something like 60-40 percent in favor of Presser’s Position. Pressler went rushing down to Herb at the front of the auditorium and told him that the vote was more like 70-30 percent and if he did not change his report he,”Pressler”, would have his job. Since Pressler had already proven he could have BP leaders fired if they didn’t report the way Pressler wanted, Hollinger quickly complied with Pressler’s demands. Who knows if the actual vote was 60-40 or 70-30 but the ego of Pressler demanded a change and his bullying tactics were employed.
I don’t know what Pressler’s reputation is as a major religious figure outsize the SBC but he is certainly held in high regard by the Moonies and the Coor’s family and others in the CNP.

Anonymous said...

http://books.google.com/books?id=rCd6Yntz8T8C

Exiled By Carl L. Kell

Univ. of Tennessee Press

Exiled is a compilation of first-person narratives by conservative and moderate ministers and lay leaders who were stripped of their positions in the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) and essentially became pariahs in the churches to which they had devoted their lives. While other books have described the takeover in their personal stories, revealing the struggle and heartache that resulted from being vilified, dispossessed, and exiled. Carl Kell includes a variety of perspectives--from lay preachers and church members to prominent former SBC leaders such as James Dunn and Carolyn Crumpler.

Anonymous said...

DEAR SLIM,

It's me, L's

I want to thank you for your comforting words about my father's passing.

I keep busy and am gathering all my family around me at Christmas, but my father's presence will be much missed.

Something to remember for me is that on Thanksgiving Day, my daughter said, "Mom, I feel Grandpa's presence here, today".
I realized then, that I did too.:)

My father is not suffering anymore and he is with Our Lord. What more could I want for him then that?

It is said that the true height of an ever-green tree cannot be measured until it is cut down.
So it is, that, until my father left us, I did not realize his stature.

He is much missed.
He was the 'Pater Familias": the head of the family, just as my mother, of blessed memory, was its heart.

Your words are a comfort and I thank you, Slim. God bless, L's

P.S. If I don't write to you again before Christmas, I hope you have a wonderful day with your family gathered all around you. :) L's

Anonymous said...

Anonymous:

Thanks for the cite to the Exiled book. I was not aware that Ms. Crumpler was an SBC leader. I thought that she worked for WMU? Did she have other jobs before or after that.

Of course, it needs to be remembered that what caused many of these people to no longer be in SBC leadership was that the SBC is a democratic organization that decided not to follow the path advocated by the moderates. Also, some of the exile was self imposed in the formation of the CBF.

I have always hoped that conservatives who had been marginilized, mistreated, exiled etc. would compile their experiences, too, as the denomination grew from 1940s through that 1970s. I am sure that Lee Roberson (RIP), John R. Rice (RIP) and men of their generation had some unbelievable stories. I know that Dr. Roberson did. He once told me that he admired what Pressler, Patterson and others were doing, but that they would never succeed because the SBC was a big machine that would just keep on rolling, and that it would be hard to bring about real change.

Younger conservatives, too, could tell some interesting stories. It is rare for a Christian Seminary President to have one's life threatened and to be hung in effigy, as Al Mohler did in the early years.

At the end of the day, however, it is where we go from here that matters most.

Ron, I know that you feel quite certain about the Recording Secretary issue with Martin Bradley. I am wondering what sources you are using. I am going to try to pull mine together, but realize it is going to be difficult some 25 years or so later. Your statements, on the other hand contain an exact certitude about what was written and the legalities of it. I would like to know what you are relying on, as that may help me in gaining an understanding.

Thanks in advance, if you read this.

Louis

Ron said...

Louis,
You stated that he refused to put the resolution in the SBC annual. Look in the 1980 SBC annual and the resolution should be printed. Pressler himself prints it in his book, A Hill on Which to Die." You should have a copy of that book. Look up Martin Bradley in the index. Bradley did not and could not leave a resolution out of the annual. Pressler is the one who goofed up by making charges against someone who doing his job exactly as he should. You keep misusing the word moderate. These men are just a conservative theologically as Pressler if not more so.

Anonymous said...

DEFINITION OF TERMS:

CONSERVATIVE: You are a 'conservative' if the leadership of the SBC says you are.
To qualify for this exalted title, you must tow the party line completely. Any miss-step may get you excommunicated into one of the two 'categories' below, in which case, you do not pass 'go' and instead end of in hell.

MODERATE: You are a 'moderate' if the leadership of the SBC says you are. "Moderate" is a derogatory term meaning you don't know any better than to question your theological superiors and have fallen from grace. The only way to get back into grace is to confess your wrong-doing publicly and kneel to the 'leadership'.

LIBERAL: You are a 'liberal' if the SBC leadership says you are.
This is the ultimate damnation leveled from on high. You are going to hell and they will shove you out of the church and over the edge. They will do this publicly so that everyone will be intimidated into agreeing with them to avoid hell, or at least, the consignment to the dreaded category of 'liberal.'

WELCOME TO THE NEW SBC:
where the wolves play 'hardball' and the lambs have been silenced.
BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD TIMES AHEAD.

Anonymous said...

I am sure it will be a best seller in the Right Wing SBC World You have created in Your Mind and Shadow

Anonymous said...

BAAAAAAAAAAD BAAAAAAAAD BAAAAA!
Here is the demonizers hall of shame:

1) J. Frank Norris is, I believe the champion of all Baptist demonizers. History is replete with examples of his masterful work. He demonized all Southern Baptists, specifically L.R. Scarborough & George W. Truett. He spent many years demonizing any and all Baptists whom he believed to be “liberal” or “evolutionists."

2) John R. Rice, originally a Southern Baptist, demonized Southern Baptists with exceeding great vigor. His publication, The Sword of the Lord, was used to demonize Southern Baptists. He died with bitterness in his heart toward, what he perceived to be, “liberal” Southern Baptists.

3) Jerry Falwell, a John R. Rice protégé, is a champion demonizer. Falwell built his massive kingdom on demonizing those who did not agree with his views on the Bible and secular politics.

4) W. A. Criswell is perhaps the champion demonizer of Southern Baptist Seminaries and Seminary professors. His claim to championship fame is that he said that the seminary professors were “infidels” and “skunks.”

5) Paul Pressler ranks high in the pantheon of champion demonizers. Pressler’s claim to fame is that he coined the “going for the jugular” quote. He also wrote a book, A Hill on Which to Die, in which he demonized everyone from Ralph Elliott, Temp Sparkman, Ken Chafin, Russell Dilday, Randall Lolley, Lloyd Elder, to the Broadman Commentary, Roy Honeycutt, Southern Seminary and Southeastern Seminary.

6) Paige Patterson joins Pressler and Criswell on a high level, having been one of the architects of the takeover in demonizing the Southern Baptist Seminaries. He demonized all of the seminaries, seminary presidents and professors who were perceived to be “liberal.” Even now, Patterson demonizes women in ministry among Baptists.

7) Jerry Sutton wrote an entire book (The Baptist Reformation: The conservative Resurgence in the Southern Baptist Convention) which contains demonization of scores of people, including Ralph Elliott, Morris Ashcraft, Glenn Hinson, Fisher Humphreys, Temp Sparkman, Clayton Sullivan, Kirby Godsey, Walter Shurden, Russell Dilday, Roy Honeycutt, Randall Lolley, Southern Seminary, Southeastern Seminary, and scores of others.

8) Al Mohler demonized E.Y. Mullins for not being a Calvinist, and Herschel Hobbs for being “duped” by neo-orthodoxy.

9) Anthony Jordan is the all-time champion demonizer of Oklahoma, having demonized Cooperating Baptist Fellowship of Oklahoma and the Mainstream Oklahoma Baptists with pen and sermon. He accuses the CBFO as being soft on homosexuality and compares the Mainstream Oklahoma Baptists with lesbians and Mormons.

10) Roger Moran is the all-time champion demonizer in Missouri, having successfully split the Missouri Baptist Convention asunder with demonizing “guilt by association” rhetoric.

11) T. C. Pinckney is the all-time champion demonizer in Virginia, having created a “hit list” for the purpose of picking them off one by one.

12) Jerry Johnson is the all-time boy-wonder champion demonizer of Colorado, saying that one would have to be “blind as a mole” to not see that Roy Honeycutt is a “liberal.”

13) Bill Powell is one of two champion demonizers of the printed page. He edited the Southern Baptist Journal, a publication that demonized any and everything that was considered to be liberal in the Southern Baptist convention.

14) Demonizing champion, Russell Kaemmerling, and his brother-in-law Paige Patterson, edited the Southern Baptist Advocate, which was funded primarily by the Criswell Center for Biblical Studies. This publication was supposedly the alternative for the “bureaucratically controlled Baptist Press.”

15) The BAPTIST PRESS is the reigning champion demonizer of Baptist news services, if one can honestly call the BP a news service. One of the most famous demonizing “news stories” was Todd Stearns’ out of context quote by Anthony Sizemore, who in a debate at the said, “the Bible is just a book “

16) Tom Elliff is a champion demonizer, having graciously thanked God for getting rid of the “barnacles” in Southern Baptist life. The barnacles of whom he spoke was the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship.

17) Jerry Rankin is one of two IMB champion demonizers, who fired Southern Baptists missionaries for refusing to sign the 2000 Baptist Faith and Message. He demonized Rick and Nancy Dill, accusing them of “misconduct and false teaching" while on the mission field.

18) Avery Willis is the other IMB champion demonizer for suggesting that foreign missionaries were under suspicion of not being doctrinally sound if they refuse to sign the 2000 Baptist Faith and Message.

19) Morris Chapman is a champion demonizer of Texas Baptists for their refusal to support the Southern Baptist agenda.


Agnes Lamb

Anonymous said...

to the demonizing anonymous blogger
blogger let go and let God
BAAAAAAAA Ba--------------
Merry Christmas

Anonymous said...

Little lamb, little lamb,
who made thee?

Little lamb, little lamb,
God made thee.

Wm Blake (I think.)

Kevin M. Crowder said...

Agnes Lamb,

What, may I ask, is your contribution to the Kingdom. Most of the men you have listed are either dead or nearing the end of their ministries. You have, I think, in your own way, demonized each of these men in your trite, and not polite comment. So, please, before you go a bashin' and set your tongue a thrashin', remember that your own contribution is now on trial. Your plank is now ready to be measured. Each of the men you have listed may have in some way, be it small or great made mistakes. But each of them has also made great contributions in their own right. Take Roger Moran. I am a Missouri Baptist and I can say at present that he would do well to back down a bit. But this man has done more for us than most realize. Sure the convention split. I assure you it was a good thing. The evil has moved on. We are now in a place where we can rebuild. We are setting the parameters. That takes time. Years.


Btw,

I do not consider Texas Baptists (of the General type) to be valid Southern Baptists either. They have gone a different path. So be it. Leave Chapman alone--please. Additionally, read some of Dr. Elliff's books. Your heart may well soften towards him.


K

Anonymous said...

KEVIN writes, "The evil has moved on."

Are you talking about the missionaries?
And Dr. Klouda?

There is a saying that you can do the right thing for the wrong reasons and eventually, you will be doing the right thing for the right reasons.

But these men of the leadership did THE WRONG THING in their minds for the 'right reasons'.
Eventually, you will see that they will do THE WRONG THING for the wrong reasons.

The evil that men do becomes a part of them, if there is no repentance and reconciliation with the victims and with the Lord.
It was an evil thing to hurt innocent people in the name of the church.
They knew it. And you know it.

Mistakes? Or sins?
Was it sinful to harm these people?
Was it sinful to say they did it for 'Christ' ?
The new SBC is built on sand and on the sufferings of innocents.

The perpetrators who played 'hardball' are bullies.
The fact that there are toadies who supported and support them is not surprising. That is usually how this kind of activity is done.
As for the other Baptists in the SBC who kept their mouths shut and allowed this to happen: they share the guilt. And THEY know it.

Agnes A. Lamb

Kevin M. Crowder said...

Ms. Lamb,

I would urge you to reread my post with greater perspicuousness. You will find that the answers to your questions show up better at a lower blood temperature.

Merry Christmas,

Kevin

Anonymous said...

KEVIN,

If you could see it the way I do, I'm sure your blood would be boiling, too.

Merry Christmas to you, too.

Agnes