"I went to Jerusalem to become acquainted (Gk. istoria) with Cephas" - Paul's words from Galatians 1:18.

Cocksure Christians Cause Continual Conflict

. Every Tuesday morning inside an old bar our church has purchased and converted into a building we call "The Grace Place," a large group of Christian men gather for discipleship and encouragement. I enjoy these weekly Bible studies which we have held on a regular basis for the last seventeen years. Our usual method is to open with prayer requests and praise reports, followed by a time of prayer. Then we take a chapter from the book of the Bible we are studying and assign two or three men to read the text aloud. After the text is read, I will offer a few observations and then ask the men for their thoughts and comments.

This past Tuesday morning's text was I Peter 4, and the discussion began around I Peter 4:6 which states:

For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.

The men at the Bible study offered four different observations and interpretations of this verse, including the following:

(1). The dead are those who lived in the antediluvian age, and the gospel was proclaimed to them by the Spirit as much as to those living in Peter's day.

(2). The dead are those who are "spiritually" dead, and the Spirit makes them alive through the preaching of the gospel.

(3). The dead are the martyrs who have died for their faith in Christ, and the judgment they received "in the flesh" was the judgment from the men who put them to death, but the Spirit makes them alive to God.

(4). The dead are those who Christ proclaimed victory to after his death at Calvary - but before His resurrection - when He took "captivity captive" and carried from Hades those He redeemed by the Spirit.

The various positions were elucidated, not so much advocated, by those who offered them, and we all listened with respect. The spirit was loving, the discussion healthy, and when it was all over I learned a great deal. Not all of the possible interpretations of that text can be correct. In fact, I am quite comfortable in saying that there is one correct interpretation of the sacred text found in I Peter 4:6.

That which stands out to me about our Bible study, however, is the love, respect and Christian charity shown by all the men toward each other - even those who disagreed with the various interpretations offered.

As I left "The Grace Place," I thanked the Lord for bringing me to a church full of people who would rather gently elucidate than proudly advocate. I also realized that those in the Southern Baptist Convention who are so cocksure about their interpretations of Scripture (i.e. "tongues have ceased," or "the gift of tongues continues"; i.e. "God is trying as hard as He can to save every person," or "God only desires to save the elect"; i.e. "women can't teach men the Bible," or "women can teach men theology," etc . . . ). I have absolutely no problem with any Southern Baptist believing any of the above examples, or any Southern Baptist explaining why they believe what they believe.

It is the arrogant, cocksure approach that a specific interpretation being advocated is the only possible correct interpretation that winds up causing conflict in the SBC. May God give us all a little humility to understand we are fallible men and women, and it is much better to elucidate one's views rather than advocate them.

In His Grace,


Wade

160 comments:

Bob Cleveland said...

One of my favorite thoughts. I guess we, like Adam, want to know it all.

I must confess that our church is a lot like you describe. In fact, my Pastor and I disagree over many points, and enjoy doing so (as well as just generally enjoy each other).

davidbmclaughlin.com said...

Great post Wade. As I teach through the Bible every year I inevitably get to Revelation. As I do, I teach the various views. Most students in the class are delighted to learn that there are more views than the one they were raised on amd are interested in learning other views in a "non-partisan" spirit.

But there are always a few who are completely torqued off that I dare insinuate that there is anything possible than their favorite view.

Shibboleth
david mc

davidbmclaughlin.com said...

I see you have changed the section name of your blog links to "Blogs I Enjoy" and I have been removed.

Ouch!

Still love ya!
dm

NativeVermonter said...

I'm not young enough anymore to know everything. (I will go with #3however.) How long did it take to come up with such a catchy title?

Really though, when the Gospel is proclaimed as exclusive, we "cocksure Christians do cause continual conflict." In fact, we're told that we're going to be hated, that probably means conflict. So my theory is, if you're going to call yourself a Christian then you better be "cocksure," (about Christ, not you) and when you tell His Story (not yours) then you should be causing conflict.

(Can you tell I've been reading Christless Christianity? :)

Anonymous said...

Heaven, we shall find out that all of us are wrong. No one has the corner on all the truth. Each one of us have different shades of light depending upon our growth.
I confess that I have been dogmatic, where I should not have been, and wishy washy where I could hammer down. Please forgive me. I repent.

Dr. Paul W. Foltz

Wanda said...

Paul,

Thanks for your repentant heart! If more of us, including myself, would humble ourselves before Almighty God and a watching world, we would be much more effective in sharing the Gospel.

Blessings,

Wanda

jasonk said...

I used to be one of those cocksure Southern Baptists. Then the Lord, like the loving Father that He is, pounded me in the head, knocked me down a few notches, and helped me realize that I didn't know nearly half what I thought I did.
I'm so thankful for His gentle, but often firm reminders to me that He is God, I am not, and I have much to learn from people in many walks of life.
Thanks for reminding me of that, Wade. I only wish I could join you at the Grace Place.

Thy Peace said...

"I only wish I could join you at the Grace Place."

But, this is the Grace Place.

Happy Thanksgiving to ALL bloggers.

May we thank Our Lord Jesus Christ for freeing us from this bondage of Sin and leading us to Life.

Anonymous said...

As long as there have been followers of Christ, there have been disagreements over interpreting what was meant by some of the things He and His apostles said or wrote.

In the broader sense, unless the interpretation is one that affects the central truths of the faith or results in creating some practice that is inconsistent with Christian ethics, it's not worth going to war over (e.g. the nature of God, scripture, the Gospel, Christ's preexistence, virgin birth, atonement, resurrection etc.)

In the more narrow sense (denominational affiliation), interpretational issues that do not affect the central truths of the faith, but are important to the group's cohesiveness and agreed upon mission will be significant.

For example, I am not at all concerned that believers that baptize infants are damaging the faith. But in Baptist terms, we could never agree that infant baptism would be acceptable in the Baptist community. We have an agreed upon theology and we have a mission strategy that would be affected by incorporating paedobaptists (sp?) into our denominational midst (even though I enjoy the teach of R.C. Sproul and others).

When an issue becomes of importance for denominational training and cooperation is often in flux. It may seem fixed, but things are usually not as settled as we would like to believe.

For me the key is for us to believe what we believe sincerely, learn to promote and defend it without being ugly, learn to discern when our interpretational issue is one that should be a defining issue, and finally (and for Baptists, most importantly), learn how to lose an argument graciously. We will never get our way all the time. We will urge some interpretations and some issues that we will lose on.

The key is what do we do when we lose? Throw rocks? Pout? Slander people? Try to draw battle lines? Quit the denomination? (I do recommend this if it's a major issue of conviction, but even that should be done graciously). Or do we simply say, my view did not prevail, but I am going to keep working on it until I can persuade my brothers and sisters to follow my lead on this particular issue.

So, for me, it's how we respond to our losses on these issues that may be the most important thing for Christian communion and cooperation.

Happy Thanksgiving.

Louis

Anonymous said...

It reminds me of what I told my son when he told me he and his wife were expecting their first child. I told him to write down everything he knew about raising children because he knew more before that child was born than he would ever know when he was actually in the process of doing it. (He'd already expressed a few opinions.) Usually people in the middle of coping with something realize they don't know all the answers.

It seems to me that often the most dogmatic people are those who know the least, while those who know more are more willing to listen to those with differing views. We learn from other viewpoints whether we change our minds or become more convinced of our own view by examining it.

Susie

Anonymous said...

Susie:

That is really wise.

What can you share with me about raising 14 and 15 year old daughters?

I invited them to go with me to see the new vampire movie Twilight (which is supposed to be a teen hit). My oldest daughter said, "Well, dad, thanks, but I already have plans. Maybe you and mom should go out on a date tonight."

I have no interest in that movie, but thought it might be a way to connect with them. No such luck this time around.

My friends tell me that my job right now is to keep driving the car and dolling out the cash. They will come back in a few years.

Any suggestions?

Louis

Anonymous said...

Wade quoted 1 Peter 4:6

"For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God."


The dead: these may be the sinners of the flood generation who are possibly referred to in 1 Peter 3:19. But many scholars think that there is no connection between these two verses, and that the dead here are Christians who have died since hearing the preaching of the gospel.

Wade Burleson said...

David Mclaughlin,

I changed templates and lost everything. A few weeks ago I asked people to send me their links and I would put them up as blog favorites. I see you don't read my blog regularly - Ouch!

(wink). Happy Thanksgiving! Send me your link and I'll get it up!

Wade

Lin said...

"It reminds me of what I told my son when he told me he and his wife were expecting their first child. I told him to write down everything he knew about raising children because he knew more before that child was born than he would ever know when he was actually in the process of doing it. (He'd already expressed a few opinions.) Usually people in the middle of coping with something realize they don't know all the answers. "

What a great idea! I was a much better 'potential' parent when I was childless and had so many opinions on the matter. I even believed that first time obedience would be a cinch if I just started out right. :o)

I used to travel a lot on business and would always grumble when I saw a mom with little ones boarding the same flight. Now, I AM that mom and I know what she is going through trying to keep them dry, quiet and entertained. :o)

Anonymous said...

Dear Louis,

Enjoy every minute with your daughters. They will grow up so fast. Right now, their primary focus is on their peer group.

What we did for our daughter was to create an atmosphere in our home so that she could invite her friends into a welcoming, comfortable 'home-like' setting: lots of food, healthy entertainment, and we were there 'in the background'. And yet, as parents, we were very aware of who our daughters' friends were AND we knew their parents. (Except for the one classmate of my daughter who turned out to be the step-child of a mafia member: another story altogether).

This worked well because we lived in a small community and our daughter's friends were mostly from our community or from her own school and from our faith.

If you feel lonely for your daughters' company now, just wait until they go away to college. You LIVE for those phone calls, even when they end with 'Dad, can you increase my allowance?'

'Letting go' is difficult, but they are turning into adults, slowly, wonderfully, at-times painfully. Just love them. Guide them. And be glad you gave them a faith-based upbringing. They will need it out in the great world. And, yes, they do come back, as the most wonderful adults, to enrich your later years. It's all worth it. You'll see. :)


A Mom

Anonymous said...

Prayer of Thanksgiving


Father God, we thank you for this earth, our home;
For the wide sky and the blessed sun,
For the salt sea and the running water,
For the everlasting hills
And the never-resting winds,
For trees and the common grass underfoot.
We thank you for our senses
By which we hear the songs of birds,
And see the splendor of the summer fields,
And taste of the autumn fruits,
And rejoice in the feel of the snow,
And smell the breath of the spring.
Grant us a heart wide open to all this beauty;
And keep our souls from being so blind
That we pass unseeing
When even the common thornbush
Is aflame with your glory,
O God our Creator,
Who lives and reigns for ever and ever.

CB Scott said...

Wade,

May you and all the geese and such there on the farm have a great Thanksgiving.

But, Wade, remind all the geese to stay close to the farm from now through the first of next year.
You know how much many of us BI folks love goose, turkey, etc. stuffed with nuts and flakes for Christmas dinner.

And, Wade, I am "cocksure" many of the BI folks even enjoy a "tent stretchin' crowin' rooster" when cooked with dumplings.

cb

greg.w.h said...

For some reason, Wade's post reminded me of James Joyce's short story "The Dead".

As I read through the story again, the part that stuck out can be found with the search "honour of God". The specific situation was that Miss Julia had spent years singing in the choir of the local parish only to have the Pope replace women singers with boy choristers. Miss Kate has a brief, insightful comment on "honouring God" that seems poignant to the point of Wade's post.

In addition, the closing section of the story speaks very directly to how little we can know of each other while living our lives woven among others lives. And how the end of this life is the final test of what our real purpose was--including our real joy--was in it.

If being cocksure is the real joy of one's life--and I fear for too many of us it is at least a great temptation--then perhaps, as with the praise of men, we will have our own reward when we choose this a central purpose. And at that point I'm reminded of Job's sacrifice for the sins of his children that they might not be aware that they had committed.

Greg Harvey

Jack said...

Bono once speculated that "Religion is what is left after The Holy Spirit has departed the room."

Sadly, each year that statement applies to more and more of the SBC.

-jack-

PS; nice alliterative title to this post :)

Anonymous said...

5000 Year-Old Thanksgiving Prayer


ברוך אתה ה' א‑לוהינו מלך העולם, המוציא לחם מן הארץ.‏

Transliteration: Barukh ata Adonai Eloheinu melekh ha‑olam, ha‑motzi lehem min ha‑aretz.

Translation: "Blessed are you, LORD, our God, King of the universe, who brings forth bread from the earth."

Anonymous said...

Thanksgiving is a year-round celebration:


Luke 17:11-19

As Jesus continued his journey to Jerusalem,
he traveled through Samaria and Galilee.
As he was entering a village, ten persons with leprosy met him.
They stood at a distance from him and raised their voices, saying,
“Jesus, Master! Have pity on us!”
And when he saw them, he said,
“Go show yourselves to the priests.”
As they were going they were cleansed.
And one of them, realizing he had been healed,
returned, glorifying God in a loud voice;
and he fell at the feet of Jesus
AND THANKED HIM.
He was a Samaritan.
Jesus said in reply,
“Ten were cleansed, were they not?
Where are the other nine?
Has none but this foreigner returned to give thanks to God?”
Then he said to him, “Stand up and go;
your faith has saved you.”


Rather be a thankful
'foreigner' in the land of the Lord, than one of His 'own kind' who takes His Gifts for granted.

Chicken Little said...

Cocksure Christians Cause Continual Conflict

Anonymous said...

Wade wrote,

"That which stands out to me about our Bible study, however, is the love, respect and Christian charity shown by all the men toward each other - even those who disagreed with the various interpretations offered."

LOVE, RESPECT, CHRISTIAN CHARITY

Imagine a 'conservative resurgence' in the SBC where love, respect, and Christian charity were the guiding rule:

How would the 2000 BF & M be different?

What would have been the fate of the missionaries who were fired?

And Dr. Klouda, imagaine her treated with love, respect, and Christian charity?

WHY were these virtues absent?

WHY did the SBC allow them to be absent?

WHAT were the 'values' that took their place and allowed so much wrong-doing to occur?

WHAT 'master' was being served?

HOW was the SBC affected by the loss of these virtues during the CR?

HOW was your own church affected?

HOW were YOU affected?

WHAT CAN YOU DO to restore
'love, respect, and Christian charity' to the Church?

Be thankful that there is still the chance to make it right again.
Be thankful for the power of a single Person to change the hearts and minds of believers:
return Jesus to the center of your faith, and He will heal the breach that divides:

He is the Author of 'love', 'respect', and 'Christian charity'.

To Him give Thanks this day.

Anonymous said...

Modern American Thanksgiving:

I was upset that I could not afford the designer shoes I wanted for the coming Holiday parties;

Until I saw a returning Iraq War Veteran who had no feet.

Anonymous said...

Thanksgiving Blessing

Blessed art Thou, LORD our God, King of the universe, Who by His Word brings about all things. ­

Blessed art Thou, Lord our God, King of the Universe, Who in His goodness, loving kindness, and mercy, nourishes the whole world. He gives food to all flesh, for His loving kindness is everlasting. In His great goodness we have never lacked food, for the sake of His great Name. For He nourishes and sustains all, and prepares food for all His creatures. Blessed art Thou, Lord, who provides food for all .

Rex Ray said...

Everybody,
Wade’s “Cocksure Christians Cause Continual Conflict” is true as The Baptist Standard’s blog reported the Associated Baptist Press of November 17, 2008 told that the Georgia Baptist Convention has decided to refuse gifts from First Baptist Church of Decatur, George.

The 146 year old church called a woman as pastor in August 2007.

The Convention’s new financial policy demands all churches to follow the BFM 2000.

David Richardson said...

Amen, Wade. Amen!

Great post.

Matt Snowden said...

Wade,

I have not visited here in a long time. This post reminds me of what I've been missing. Thanks.

Rex Ray said...

Wade,
I’m surprised only one person (Native Vermonter picked #3) has expressed his pick of the four possible interpretations you have expressed of (1 Peter 4:6)

They have covered the main point of your post, but I thought it would be interesting and educational if the comments expressed their reasons for which one they would choose.

Is everyone afraid they’d be labeled a ‘Cocksure Christian’ if they expressed their preference?

OK, I’m not afraid. The Living Bible says: “That is why the Good News was preached even to those who were dead—killed by the flood—so that although their bodies were punished with death, they could still live in their spirits as God lives.”

That would be the #1 interpretation, and normally I like the Living, but I believe the Bible is to guide us to be a witness today. So my pick is #2.

Now, I hope that doesn’t make me one of those ‘Cocksure people’.

Wade, the gathering for discipleship and encouragement in your church sounds real good.

Our church has started a ‘Leadership Training Course’. It is ‘required’ for deacons and open for other men.

We have had two enjoyable meetings. At the first, your post of B.J. was read, and the second was Bible study.

My question is how our meetings should differ from yours if ‘leaders’ are to be the end result?

I sometimes think ‘leaders’ have to be born. Can anyone help us out?

NativeVermonter said...

To a large degree, I would submit that leaders are born. One look at an elementary school playground and you can quickly discern the leaders from the followers. I often wonder, is there any commonalities between Christian and worldly leadership? In the business world I have had supervisors that I enjoy working for and then I have had others who fail to emulate any leadership traits whatsoever.

Sadly, I have seen the same in the church.

Maybe we can shift the theme a bit today and discuss what leadership traits you look for in people? I'll start off with one that will offend a few folks right off the bat. I expect a leader to display a command presence which includes being physically fit and displaying a strong positive mental attitude. If one can not even take care of themselves why should I look to them for leadership?

Thy Peace said...

The only leader I will look up to and follow is the one, who is a true servant. He or She will serve others and will be the last. They should be willing to take the hurts, barbs and slings. They should look to Our Lord Jesus Christ for the Source of everything. Their joy should be in serving others.

Such person, I would call a leader.

Thy Peace said...

1 Peter 4 (New International Version)
Living for God

1Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin. 2As a result, he does not live the rest of his earthly life for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. 3For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. 4They think it strange that you do not plunge with them into the same flood of dissipation, and they heap abuse on you. 5But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.
7The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear minded and self-controlled so that you can pray. 8Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. 9Offer hospitality to one another without grumbling. 10Each one should use whatever gift he has received to serve others, faithfully administering God's grace in its various forms. 11If anyone speaks, he should do it as one speaking the very words of God. If anyone serves, he should do it with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen.

Suffering for Being a Christian

12Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. 13But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. 14If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. 15If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler. 16However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. 17For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18And,
"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"[a]
19So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.

Thy Peace said...

My understanding of the 1 Peter 4:6 is, ALL people will be preached the gospel. Both the living and the dead. If you have not heard the gospel while on earth, and you die, you will hear it after death.

5But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Anonymous said...

Good Morning, Everyone

I hope all of you had a blessed holiday with your families gathered around you.

Rex Ray and Thy Peace and Wade:

I have stories from my Coast Guard son about leadership to share:

The first made me cry.
One of my sons currently teaches electronics at the Petaluma facility for the USCG.

He had a hard-working young black man come through his course who had trouble with some other instructors' teaching. My son helped him, but the young man failed to pass the other courses.

He asked my son, 'What should I do? Should I take the program over again (an option) or should I go back to the fleet?'

My son told him to try again: that he was so hard-working he would ace everything the second time. And my son told him: 'I would want to work with you anytime because you are so hard-working and have a great attitude and desire to succeed.'

The young man tried again and he aced everything. He asked his commanding officer if my son could pin him when he graduated.

A few months later, the officer asked my son into his office: he wanted to know why my son never had any trouble with any of his students. My son replied: 'I treat them like adults, with respect."

RESPECT.
GIVING SOMEONE A SECOND CHANCE.
That's my boy.

I am a proud mom, you bet.
L's Gran

Anonymous said...

P.S. It's me again. L's

Since I'm bragging about my boy, I will tell you how he spent Thanksgiving.
He owns a condo in the Petaluma area and invited all of his students to come over yesterday for a Thanksgiving Dinner.

So many of them could not afford the time or money to go home for the holiday.

My son gave the boys a 'home' to come to. And tons of food (a family tradition). :)

I couldn't be prouder. :) L's

PS. Thy Peace is right: a leader is a servant. Yesterday, my son was serving a LOT of turkey and ham. And yes, these tough Coasties said a blessing.

Anonymous said...

THY PEACE said,

"My understanding of the 1 Peter 4:6 is, ALL people will be preached the gospel. Both the living and the dead. If you have not heard the gospel while on earth, and you die, you will hear it after death. "

I like this interpretation. I must agree because this best shows God as a loving Father who cares for ALL His creation. This interpretation honors God's greatness and places Him ABOVE all limitations on His power that we might be tempted to assign to Him, because of our very limited understanding of things eternal.

It is said that the Name God loves most to hear is 'Father'. L's

Stephen fox said...

Wade:
In the last few days you and me and Deb Kaufmann have learned a new name for a Cock Sure Christian and it is our friend CB Scott.
His lunacy on the FOCA matter has invaded my blog and that of Baptist hereticus as well.
Google Up FOCA phantom at Belief net. Blogger there eloquently lays to rest a matter you were keen to challenge CB Scott on just a few days ago.
Looking forward in coming days to read a review here of Barry Hankins book on Francis Schaeffer.
Will be interested to see what you have to say; as well as your take on the Dec Baptists Today issue interview of Fisher Humphreys nephew Charles Marsh

Bob Cleveland said...

Could it be that the Gospel is preached to the dead, as a sign to the living, that the Gospel is ALWAYS to be preached? That it's to be preached regardless of our opinion as to how it will be received? How it will "turn out"?

Whether we'd be "wasting our breath" to preach where it would, in our eyes, "fail"?

Could it be another sign that our trying to determine who is and who is not elect .. who will and will not be saved .. is futile?

Could it be that God willing, desiring, wanting, intending, trying to get everyone saved is none of our business?

Could it be that we're not supposed to know that, which would mean, to me, we're not to try to figure it out?

Darned Adam. He gave us that gene, I guess.

Thy Peace said...

These links are from the above comments of Stephen Fox:

The FOCA Phantom: What will pro-lifers do without it?

bapticus hereticus: the deleted post. on asking "for goodness sake, why?"

asfoxseesit: Bob Jones U changes Policy on Race

Wayne Smith said...

Wade and Rex Ray

This is what my ESV Study Bible notes say.


1 Pet. 4:6 the gospel was preached even to those who are dead. Although some maintain that Peter offers a second chance after death for those who rejected Christ, this view is untenable since it contradicts both the clear teaching of Scripture throughout the rest of the Bible (e.g., Luke 16:26; Heb. 9:27; see note on 1 Pet. 3:19) and the immediate context, concerning the importance of perseverance of believers (4:1–6) and the coming judgment of “the living and the dead” (v. 5). Given the immediate context, “those who are dead” refers to Christians to whom “the gospel was preached” when they were alive but who have since died. This fits with the meaning of “dead” in v. 5. Even though believers will experience physical death (i.e., they are judged in the flesh the way people are), believers who have died live in the spirit the way God does (that is, they live in heaven now, and they will live as well at the resurrection when Christ returns).

Wayne Smith

Anonymous said...

To THY PEACE,

Hi. I went to one of your sites and found this from someone named 'budcath':

" am a cradle catholic. Stopped going to church when I was a teenager and could say I'm not going anymore. I grew up in the south and the church was segregated. This was a big issue to me as an older child and teenager."

Just to clarify: no Roman Catholic Church has EVER been segregated that I know of. I also grew up partly in the South, and my parish was fully integrated as was my school. I am sixty-two years old.

My school was integrated when the public schools were not. I am proud of that fact as I believe racism to be a great evil that afflicts the victims and the perpetrators equally. I was taught that racism is a sin against the dignity of another.

Thy Peace said...

Anon 2:17pm:

I only provided the links based on Stephen Fox's comments. I was purely providing a service, for it took me awhile to find them by google search. I was trying to save some time, if any readers were interested.

Thanks for the info on segregation (or lack of) of the catholic church in the south.

You are a young person. :-)

Thy Peace said...

This link is provided as a service to readers:

BAPTISTLIFE.COM: C.B. Scott on Obama, Osama, and Wade Burleson

CB Scott said...

Stephen and Thy Peace,

On July 17, 2007 Barack Obama did promise he would sign FOCA in a speech before a Planned Parenthood group. That is a fact. He did, in fact, stand against the Induced Infant Liability Act in 2002. he also stood against the Born Alive Infant Protection Act in 2003. All of the above are facts and cannot be refuted.

My conflict with Wade does not really matter in the big picture. Your personal problems with conservative theology are not really important here either.

The personal needs and desires of Thy Peace or whoever the person is, is also of no major importance. The opinions of people related to me or my opinions of Wade in the last year matter nothing.

What does matter is that people who call themselves followers of Christ need to pray that when Barack Obama becomes President Obama he does not sign FOCA. He does not even need to speak in favor of its passage for him to be able to sign it. he needs to denounce it as the wicked thing it is.

I am praying for the President-Elect that he will lead this country well and that he will seek the face of God in doing so. He already has a great problem before him due to what happened in India in the last coupe of days.

I am praying for him to have wisdom in dealing with such matters. When he was elected he became the man who I will call Mr. President. He is the man I will pray for as directed in Scripture.

Stephen, no matter what your political position is. No matter mine or Wade's; (Wade's is closer to mine than to yours even if he never states so publicly)

The bottom line is babies are dying for no other reason than America is worshiping at the altars of Greed and Lust. There is no doubt that God hates abortion for the reasons it is primarily practiced in our nation.

The truth is that if FOCA gets to the desk of President Barack Obama and he signs it as he promised great slaughter will be reality in our land. That one action will do the following:

1. Eliminate state laws that limit abortion.
2. Allow abortion-on-demand for all nine months of pregnancy.
3. It will invalidate pro-life laws passed since the 1973 passing of Roe v. Wade.
4. It will invalidate the ban on partial-birth abortions.
5. It will invalidate the ban on the federal funding of abortions.
6. It will invalidate the ban of abortions in government operated hospitals.
7. It will invalidate parental notification laws.
8. It will invalidate laws on waiting periods before a person has an abortion.
9. It will invalidate conscience laws.

There is much more this terrible action will do but surely the above should be enough to make one see the "clear and present danger" in the Freedom of Choice Act if it is signed into law. Many say that an additional 125,000 American children will die in 2009 added to the 1,300,000 who are already going to die as a result of Roe V. Wade being the law of the land.

The Burlesons know that. The Scotts know that. The Clevelands know that. Most all rational thinking Christians know that, no matter if they are liberal, moderate, conservative, Baptists Methodists or Catholics. it is a fact.

We all need to pray that FOCA never becomes part of our existence as a nation.

What I can't understand, Stephen, is why you can't see that. This is not an issue deserving political or theological polarization. We are talking about the death of the innocents. And, my brother, that is wrong.

cb

Thy Peace said...

I am not taking sides in this abortion debate.

My desire is for all sides to advocate love, Christian charity and dialog to convince mothers to not abort. Also to provide support both before, during and after pregnancies.

Passing laws only criminalize the already lowly and suffering of the mothers.

In my humble view, Love always trumps and triumphs over Law.

CB Scott said...

Thy Peace,

Link what you will.

The opinions of me from others whether truth or fiction changes nothing.

Abortion is still murder. FOCA will only increase the number of murders.

cb

CB Scott said...

Also, Thy Peace,

Since you are desiring to be helpful by linking things related to this; Why did you not like to my blog or SBC TODAY?

Just wondering.

cb

Anonymous said...

To CB:

For 8 years, the abortion issue has been in the hands of the 'hate-mongers' and nothing got done.

When President-Elect Obama comes into office, track his record and see if he follows up on these campaign promises:



"What Barack Obama Will Do"

An Obama administration will do more than a McCain administration for the cause of life, by drastically reducing abortions through giving women and families the support and the tools they need to choose life.
Barack Obama will continue to strive to make a life with dignity for all from the beginning to the end of life possible - by making sure health care is affordable, combating poverty, providing good paying jobs, and ensuring security in life's final years.



Support for Women and Families:

Sen. Obama supports paid maternity leave to make sure families won't lose their employment and much needed income from having a child.
Sen. Obama supports legislation to allow 'sick-leave' to also cover one's sick children.
Expand programs like the successful Nurse-Family Partnership to all low-income, first-time mothers. The Nurse-Family Partnership provides home visits by trained registered nurses to low-income expectant mothers and their families.
Sen. Obama has committed to making investment in affordable daycare and supports a refundable Child and Dependent Care Tax Credit would allow families to receive a 50 percent credit on up to $3,000 of childcare.
Sen. Obama will cut taxes for 95 percent of all working families and will cut middle class taxes three times as much as Sen. McCain.


Fatherhood and Responsibility:

Obama is a cosponsor of the Responsible Fatherhood and Healthy Families Act, which encourages personal responsibility and includes provisions for domestic violence prevention and improved collection and distribution of child support.

Health Care:

Obama is committed to signing health legislation by the end of his first term in office that will guarantee affordable healthcare for every American.
Under the Obama health plan, no one would be denied health care coverage because of a pre-existing condition.
He would change the bizarre practice of pregnancy being listed in many health coverage plans as a "pre-existing condition." (MY NOTE: I AM AWARE OF ONE ABORTION THAT TOOK PLACE BECAUSE OF THIS PRACTICE.)

Sen. Obama is a strong advocate for the expansion of the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP) to provide health care to children in low-income families.


Tackling Poverty:

Obama will expand the Earned Income Tax Credit to help lift many families out of poverty.
His plan will increase the number of working parents eligible for EITC benefits, increase the benefit available to parents who support their children through child support payments, and reduce the EITC marriage penalty.
Obama supports Catholic Charities USA's stated goal to cut domestic poverty in half in ten years.
Obama will make sure that full-time workers can earn a wage that allows them to raise their families and live with dignity. Obama will raise the minimum wage to $9.50 an hour by 2011 and index it to inflation.

Senator Obama supports the expansion of the leading program that provides nutritional support for low-income pregnant women and their infants and children (WIC).
Supporting Adoption

Sen. Obama has been a proponent of increased support for adoption agencies and an expanded adoption tax credit.


Late-Term Abortion:

Obama opposes late term abortions, with a clear exception for the mother's life and health:
"I have repeatedly said that I think it's entirely appropriate for states to restrict or even prohibit late-term abortions as long as there is a strict, well-defined exception for the health of the mother. Now, I don't think that 'mental distress' qualifies as the health of the mother. I think it has to be a serious physical issue that arises in pregnancy, where there are real, significant problems to the mother carrying that child to term."
- Senator Obama in an interview with Relevant magazine, July 1, 2008

Sen. McCain has voted against measures that would support pregnant women and families that need it most:
McCain voted against extending Medicaid coverage to pregnant women and infants up to one year of age with incomes below the Federal poverty line.
Senator McCain voted twice against the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP), one of the largest support programs for pregnant women and poor children, which would have provided health care to an additional 3.2 million children and continuing coverage for the more than 6 million children already dependent on the care.
Senator McCain has opposed increases in funding to nutritional support program for pregnant women and infants (WIC) that has proven to be one of the most effective programs in supporting women to carry their pregnancies to term.
McCain voted against increased funding for child care and does not have a plan to help families make child care affordable.
Sen. McCain has voted to increase taxes on local small business nurseries and childcare providers.
He has voted against minimum wage increases at least 19 times and voted to completely repeal the minimum wage in 45 states.

MY NOTE: Give Obama the benefit of the doubt. Bush and company were totally embraced as 'God's' choice and we have seen the result.
Obama's plans are vast, but he has shown an organizational ability and an ability to inspire that has not come along in this country for almost fifty years.

If what Obama can accomplish saves women from seeking abortions, then the 'hate-mongers' might have to choose ANOTHER issue to spew their hatred. We shall see.

Maranatha

Bob Cleveland said...

God seems pretty clear that HE knits us together in our mothers' wombs. So if anyone says they don't know when life starts (or some other excuse for killing babies), it seems to be nothing more than rationalizing to try to win an argument.

At the expense of the most innocent and defenseless of all humans.

I think it is permissible to abort a child in any situation where it would be permissible to kill one already born. Such as self-defense.

Period.

May God bless CB in his uncompromising stand on abortion. You should all have the concern for children that he has.

Thy Peace said...

CB, believe me I am not against you. I was only researching what was provided by Stephen Fox. I did not have a clue as to what I was getting into.

My apologies. I do not wish to engage in debates, for I am no good, in either keeping track of my own thoughts let alone of others.

I do agree with you that abortion is murder. I understand lot of bloggers here share your viewpoints in this matter.

I sincerely hope President Elect Obama does not sign FOCA.

In fairness:

The Report: A CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER

SBC Today: Barack Obama, Pay Grades, and the Right to Life of the Unborn

Anonymous said...

CB says:

"Abortion is still murder."

A therapeutic abortion to save the life of the mother has for thousands of years been acceptable to many people of faith.

Your opinion is simply what it is. We can respect it as YOUR opinion.
It is not acceptable for me to see a mother die because an abortion was not done to save her life. This is MY opinion. You will not respect it as such, but it is MY OPINION. It is also legal to perform therapeutic abortions. Try changing THAT law, if you will.

I say: not to perform a therapeutic abortion needed to save the mother's life IS THE MURDER OF THE MOTHER.

There are two lives to consider. In this case, some mothers choose to go ahead and have the baby, regardless of the risk to themselves.
Women do still have the right to choose in this country, and they choose as they must according to their situation.

Anonymous said...

For Bob Cleveland:

I found this for you. L's Gran

"Psalm 139:13-16 affirms God's creation of, and communion with, the unborn child as well as implying the continuity between life before and after birth:

'For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.
I praise you for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful...
My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place...
your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.'

Beautiful, isn't it? :)

P.S. ALL were formed in their mothers' wombs under the loving care of their Creator. :)

Thy Peace said...

Dr. Sheri Klouda has written a letter to fbcjax watchdog blog readers here:

FBC JAX WATCHDOG: The Klouda Family: "What We are Thankful For"

CB Scott said...

Anony

You say:

"For 8 years, the abortion issue has been in the hands of the 'hate-mongers' and nothing got done.

When President-Elect Obama comes into office, track his record and see if he follows up on these campaign promises"

Actually far more years have passed than eight. What does that have to do with FOCA?

Frankly, I am not concerned with any of his promises other than the one he made to sign FOCA.

I would not care if our economy failed and Visigoths invaded our land and wiped us out. FOCA is the issue I am addressing.

BTW, you are not a missionary. You should use your name.

Hell-o, Bob.

Thanks for taking a stand. Have you seen Wade or Paul?

Thy Peace,

May God grant you great peace and thank you for your stand relating to FOCA.

If you are ever in Birmingham. Call me. I will buy your lunch. And I won't tell anybody who you are.

Anony 2,

I am not talking about the endangerment of a woman. Been there done that. I am talking about FOCA and abortion on demand. (convenience abortions)

You are not a missionary either, use your name.

L's Gran,

Beautiful? Yes it is. And so are all children, before and after being born. Only an adult can make a child ugly before or after it is born.

Thank you for the reference. Also, if you are in Birmingham.......

Thy Peace,

I realize you are a relative new comer to all of this, but please leave Dr. Klouda out of this. She has certainly suffered enough at the hands of Baptists men....and women. Also, I am pretty sure her position is as is mine on abortion and FOCA, although I have never spoken to her about it.

cb

Anonymous said...

To CB Scott,

I would much rather include Dr. Klouda in any reasonable way so that we can never forget what happened to her and so that we can try to help.

I looked on the site that Thy Peace gave us about Dr. Klouda and I found this:

" . . . if you feel led to donate money to help the Klouda's, Pastor Wade Burleson has already set up a benevolence fund where 100% of all recepits will be given to the Klouda's, and your gift will be tax deductible.


Send your gifts to:
Emmanuel Baptist Church
2505 West Garriott
Enid, Oklahoma 73703

Designate your gift "Sheri Klouda Fund".

I intend to donate for her and her family during this Christmas Season. I hope others will also.

Mr. Scott, I happen to believe that Dr. Klouda does not wish for women to be discriminated against because of 'religious' reasons. We do not know her beliefs regarding controversial issues.
She is deserving of her privacy and her dignity. I will make no assumptions about her beliefs re: women's issues other than what I have stated. Please pray for her and her family. L's Gran

CB Scott said...

L's Gran,

I will make this comment to address your last comment and I will leave it at that.

You are very late to the party on that one.

cb

Anonymous said...

Mr. Scott,

How wrong you are. Dr. Klouda is only one of many women who have experienced discrimination at the hands of those who felt it was 'okay' to do it, for what ever reason.

I am only surprised that this lady was injured in such a setting by people who were claiming the title 'Christian'. And equally surprised that her treatment was justified by some followers of those who were responsible.

There is no 'late' in prayer: God is eternal. In my religion, sometimes we symbolically light a candle when saying a prayer: to remind us that, long after we have prayed to the Lord, our prayer remains before Him for all eternity.

As for the fund and the address, I am sure that Wade will see that our gifts are given to Dr. Klouda.
If you read her letter on the other site, you will see that there is still need as her husband continues to be quite ill.

I am NOT a member of your faith, so I do not count myself as one of the 'party', in a real or symbolic way. My sympathy for Dr. Klouda is genuine. I wish more members of her OWN faith had shown compassion for her and spared her and her family their suffering, but it was not to be. I still have hope of hearing that the SBC will reconsider their treatment of her and try to make the situation 'right' although they can never undo the suffering she has endured already. I need to know that the SBC is still a Christian entity, for family reasons of my own. L's Gran

CB Scott said...

L's Gran,

I agree and am "cocksure" I well know that situation and others of which you have no idea.

Now, What do you think of FOCA and its implications for the unborn if it becomes the law of the land?

cb

Steve said...

There can be no question that the unborn child has a right to be allowed to develop once his mother has done what she wished to which culminated in his/her creation.
I will let others in the several states decide the minority of cases where there is evidence the mother never had a chance to decide.
However, Bro. Scott just has this knack for creating the image of a little boy in black shorts pointing his finger at all the girls telling them how things will simply have to be if they are going to live in his world. It is probably just an accident, but here C.B. is again, unloading on any girl who tries to climb his tree. Now, as far as race, or fairness, or economics so far as I know he is probably dead on. I guess the gender hardhead is just so worn-out and tiring as a cultural phenomenon it borders on becoming a joke.

Anonymous said...

C.B. SCOTT asked L's Gran:

"What do you think of FOCA and its implications for the unborn if it becomes the law of the land?"


I read the sections of the proposed FOCA and will comment on the following:


SEC. 4. INTERFERENCE WITH REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH PROHIBITED.

(a) Statement of Policy- It is the policy of the United States that every woman has the fundamental right to choose to bear a child, to terminate a pregnancy prior to fetal viability, or to terminate a pregnancy after fetal viability when necessary to protect the life or health of the woman.

MY COMMENT: As a Roman Catholic, I do not believe in abortion FOR MYSELF. I also give to all women this: that they must try to follow their OWN consciences on the matter.
I would never imprint my beliefs by sitting in judgment on another woman's situation. All I can do is to work to make a more welcoming world so that women will not be so afraid to bring new life into it: the concept of 'tikkun olam' in Hebrew: to 'repair the world'.
In short, I am pro-choice on the matter, out of respect for another woman's conscience and her relationship with God, which is sacro-sanct.

Truth be known, I remember the days when abortion was illegal. A college acquaintance died after being butchered in a back-alley clinic in the Caribbean. Banning abortions won't stop them. Sadly, I know this ro be true already.




(b) Prohibition of Interference- A government may not--

(1) deny or interfere with a woman's right to choose--

(A) to bear a child;

(B) to terminate a pregnancy prior to viability; or

(C) to terminate a pregnancy after viability where termination is necessary to protect the life or health of the woman;

COMMENT: I do think clarification needs to be made about the 'health' aspects: mental health as an issue does require consideration. I do not reject mental health of the mother as an issue, but too many have misused this as an excuse without real cause in fact.

(2) discriminate against the exercise of the rights set forth in paragraph (1) in the regulation or provision of benefits, facilities, services, or information.

COMMENT: As a Roman Catholic, I am aware that Catholic hospitals do not and never could practice abortion. It is something that would violate the conscience of the Catholic Administration and Diocesan oversight. This does concern me and I know that perhaps those hospitals of various religions that will not abort women need to be exempted on grounds of conscientious objection to abortion. Catholic hospitals give excellent patient care to the very poor as a practice of our faith. It would be a shame to see them close.


(c) Civil Action- An individual aggrieved by a violation of this section may obtain appropriate relief (including relief against a government) in a civil action.

MY COMMENT: Women have been on the end of the line when it comes to just and right treatment in our country: along with gay people, the handicapped, the mentally-challenged, the mentally ill, the homeless and all poor children.
If the government of our country can empower a woman who is being discriminated against, then I'm ALL for it. Too many single mothers are drowning without support from our society as it is, and their children suffer, thanks to discrimination against women.

For too long, the abortion issue has been a terrible joke played on women. Without any regard for an individual woman's personal situation or health, people have used the abortion issue for political gain. And when political power was granted, these people did nothing to make a better world in which to welcome new life. The hypocrisy is overwhelming. I see nothing but mean-spirited judgmentalism and political cynicism behind the anti-abortion movement. I reject it completely in favor of a pro-life position in support of the health and welfare of young women and the new life they choose to bring into our world, ENABLED by active support from our society and our government. We CAN begin to really reduce the number of abortions IF we work productively instead of 'lip service' and judgmentalism.

As for Obama: he repeatedly states that IF THE LIFE OF THE MOTHER IS AT STAKE, he supports late-term viable abortion. Many people in our country agree with him. I think the mother and the physician should decide the matter.

So, with the exception of Catholic hospitals as well as the hospitals of other faiths, I have to hope that this Act will protect young women from the current serious abuse of both the religious hypocrisy and the political cynicism of the far-right in our country and also protect them from the return of the age of back-alley butchery.

SUMMARY: My Church, which opposes abortion, allows me to make decisions based on my own conscience, as I will answer to the Lord on the Day. I think all women MUST consult their own consciences and TRY TO follow them as best they can in a world that sometimes gives them little real help, a lot of cynicism, and much judgmental hypocrisy.





FOR CLARIFICATION, I INCLUDED THESE FOCA DEFINITIONS:

SEC. 3. DEFINITIONS.
In this Act:

(1) GOVERNMENT- The term `government' includes a branch, department, agency, instrumentality, or official (or other individual acting under color of law) of the United States, a State, or a subdivision of a State.

(2) STATE- The term `State' means each of the States, the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, and each territory or possession of the United States.

(3) VIABILITY- The term `viability' means that stage of pregnancy when, in the best medical judgment of the attending physician based on the particular medical facts of the case before the physician, there is a reasonable likelihood of the sustained survival of the fetus outside of the woman.

CB Scott said...

Steve,

Would you mind explaining what you just said.

What girl am I "unloading" on here?

cb

CB Scott said...

Anony,

You will get no argument from me that many women on this planet have, do and will continue to be treated as property and even worse.

Some men have actually done more than give "lip service." Some have done much. Some have risked their lives in bad places.

Sadly, to many have done nothing. And many do take advantage, not only of women, but children, the elderly, the poor, etc. All of that is true. What happens in our world to the defenseless is that of which nightmares are made.

Yet, do you not realize that many women who are presently unborn will suffer without any hope of life or the privileges to make any decisions as to their own future if FOCA becomes law?

cb

Anonymous said...

C.B. Scott has said on his blog:
'tell me if the use of beverage alcohol is wise or unwise. Is it sin for a Christ-Follower?'

Jesus didn't turn water into wine. That's a lie in the Bible, isn't it? Wine has a much higher alcohol content than beer. So the Bible lied. No wine for a 'true' Christ-follower.

oc said...

I admittedly haven't read any of the "cocksure" comments on this post. I'm not sure I want to.

I just want to say that Sheri Klouda is a hero of the faith. It really doesn't matter to me what theological bent you may have, right is right. She is one of my heroes. Spent for the Lord. How many others of you can say that?
just sayin'.
oc.

oc said...

CB Scott.
You lighten up on L's gran.
If you had any leading from the Holy Spirit, you would not have adressed her in such an abrasive way.

Back up a bit CB.

Jake Barker said...

Steve Austin,
You have absolutley NO knowledge of CB or the things he has done to attempt to right wrongs done to the female gender or to children. Which I might add are considerable. I would advise you to research folks before you get froggy and jump.

oc said...

Oh, is that same Jake guy who jumps in whenever CB seems to get uncomfortable? The alter-ego dude we've seen from time to time?

Interesting indeed...

Anonymous said...

Dear OC,

It's me. L's Gran.

I am aware that Mr. Scott has strong feelings. At least, Wade's post is a Christian place where Mr.Soott can 'unload' or 'vent' some of his stronger feelings. I am familiar with the healthier benefits of 'venting' in an appropriate manner and am quite willing to provide Mr. Scott with an opportunity to do so, in a gentlemanly fashion hopefully.

You are kind to be concerned. I think he just needs to have a chance to express himself. It's a healthy thing to do.

As for me, I used to teach in a drug rehab in Patterson NJ.
And I taught inner-city children for almost twenty years in a middle school. Most grown men could not survive one day in the settings I've worked in, so you do not have to worry for me. But thanks for your very kind concern, it is appreciated. L's

CB Scott said...

Jake,

Thanks. But the truth is I have not done enough. I should have done more. We all should have done more.

cb

Thy Peace said...

L's Gran: Thanks for educating me. It's always good to hear a woman's perspective on other side of FOCA. I have heard both sides of this debate. Believe it or not, I understand what CB is also saying. From my limited experience and from talking to friends, this issue is very difficult to lot of people. Especially for the people in the process of making a choice. It would be ideal if the mothers have good support either from family or friends or the government. I am willing to state, if such happened there would be less abortions. But for lot of people, in this economy and the burdens of this day and age, most people are in a rat race and they are continually running to stay fixed in one place. And lot of times, if their religious faith is not strong, they are turned with the vicissitudes of life.

My prayers are for the preservation of life. My prayers are also for the forgiveness of sins of mothers who for "whatever" reasons chose to do this. Only God can forgive and love His children fully. We can try to love them too.

I also pray, that we have some tolerance of Christians who disagree with us. We should pray for them and support and love them in their ordeal. So they may turn to preserve life next time or they would be witnesses for others for the glory of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

CB Scott said...

OC,

You have made the same mistake Wade did. Jake barker is a real person.

We have crossed swords on other blogs. Some of you guys are new to this arena.

Jake has been around for a long time.

Sometimes we agree. Sometimes we don't. On this issue we do.

Why do you not see the dangers of FOCA?

Like Jake's friend Vol once said; "Its not brain surgery."

cb

cb

oc said...

L's gran.
I'm sorry. It's kinda of an instinct with me. I didn't mean to give the impression that you couldn't stick up for yourself. My reaction was just a defect of character which I carry. My apologies.

I just felt some bullying was going on, and I just rebel against that.

My apologies for my misunderstandings, to each party.

oc.

Anonymous said...

Dear Mr. Scott,

I have heard you say that you have served in dangerous places.

So have I. My young students went home to dangerous places every night. Terrible things happened to some of them. Nightmares that 'came in the day'.

I will never trust those who sit comfortably and speak in judgment on the poor and throw stones instead of reaching out to help.

I, too, have worked in places where most people wouldn't be caught dead. I hate hypocrisy.
I hate that when some people speak against others, they offer no hope or help. It must change, if you really want fewer abortions.

Where there is life, there is hope.
What we need to do is to reverse that sentence:

Create hope for young women so that they may choose life for their babies. No more stones.

L's Gran

oc said...

CB,
I do see the dangers of FOCA.
I don't like it in the least, it rebels against my spirit. But I do think that you could come across differently instead of attacking, and still express your revulsion for it. I revolt in it too, CB.
FOCA is an abomination, but I don't feel the need to kill others on the way to save lives.
Maybe a little a little time spent alone may help. And I'm not the expert of anything, just want you to treat others a little better.
I know. That coming from me.
oc.

foxofbama said...

Thank you Thy Peace for providing the links. See if you can provide the Brethen on this board alive link to the Gorney interview of Oct 30 on NPR Fresh Air.
Until CB Scott: Goes public naming folks like Alabama Bishop Willimon and many more Christians of more substance than him, Artur Davis For One;
Until Scott goes public with a full page ad in the Bham News naming Them Baby Muderers and Baby Killers he is just full of Hot Air, and the latest Cocksure Demagogue Fundamentalists to Come Alabama's Way.
He is night and day different like Frank Page was to Ronnie Floyd in temperament from my friend John Killian on this matter, who is not wearing FOCA on his sleeve at the Killian blog.
Killian and Mike Shaw have more responsibility as officeholders in the Bama SBC therefore so far they are much more prudent than the zealot CB Scott on this matter.
Where is Rob Reilly and Gary Fenton on FOCA, Jay Wolfe andRickLance.
Let me know, CB when you convince them you are the biggest thing in fundamentalism since Hal Lindsey and Curtis Caine and Albert Lee Smith
And please all of you including Wade; love to hear your response to ProffGorney

Thy Peace said...

foxofbama: I only provided the links as I was researching your comments. I have to admit, it's hard to follow your comments. I think it's due to lot of information you are trying to convey in such a short space.

I am familiar with the radio interview you speak of. This was actually done by Dave Davies in Philadelphia, where Fresh Air originates. I also am familiar with Cynthia Gorney in the olden days when she was a reporter in Washington Post.

To be honest with you, lot of people already know this issue, though they may not say it out to others.

But as Christians, we are asked and commanded to be different from the world. I still feel Love and providing support to prospective parents helps them in the long run both emotionally and spiritually in making the right choice of preserving life. If people chose to do the unthinkable, we are to also love and support them in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

NPR : WHYY : Fresh Air: Cynthia Gorney: Parsing The Politics Of Abortion by Dave Davies

Anonymous said...

Hello THY PEACE,

it's me, L's

In my religion there is something we call a 'sin of ommission" (sp?)

This is something that we could have done, should have done, would have done, but DIDN'T DO. Something that would have made a difference. What happens when a person of my faith sins by ommission is this: God places an opportunity in front of us to help another and we turn away instead.

I don't have answers for anyone else but I KNOW that if I do not try to do WHAT I CAN to alleviate some of the suffering I see around me, I will be sinning against this rule of charity.

I know now that even a small thing done with love for others can make a big difference. People don't try because they don't realize how much they have to offer: the power they have to do good in the world.
The important thing is to try and ask the Good Lord to magnify the benefit of even a small thing you do for others.

He will. HE WILL. :) L's

CB Scott said...

L's GHran,

I am not trying to vent. I have no need to vent. I am right about the dangers of FOCA to the unborn.

Have you read any comment I have made?

Also, I am glad you worked in rehab. Many have. Many still do.

But, let me ask you. In working with people in rehab did you share the biblical gospel with them?

L's Gran do you know the biblical gospel? Is it the absolute foundation of your life?

Have you realized you are at odds with a Holy God in you sin? Have you been broken due to your sin and total depravity before Him. Have you placed faith in the atonement of Christ and Christ alone for your salvation.

If you have I rejoice. If not, I beg you to forget being Catholic, Baptist or anything else and cry out to God for forgiveness of sin, rely on Christ and His provision for your salvation and nothing else.

I challenge any and all who read this blog to do the same if you have not.

You guys are all right in saying we are all different, for so we are, but it is true we must all know Christ in the same way. If not we are bound for hell no matter what good or bad we have done in this life.

Loving one another is good, but it won't cut it judgment. Being tolerant is fine if one actually understands what biblical tolerance actually means, but being tolerant won't cut it in the judgment.

Only knowing Christ in biblical repentance and faith makes one a child of God.

I realize that is off topic here, but it must be said. I am sorry that it is me who says it. I realize some of you consider me less than of proper behavior, but that is not what is important for your souls. Your souls may be in danger of hell, if you do not become true, born-again followers of the Christ.

Now, back to the issue at hand thanks to Stephen Fox:

Folks, FOCA is a bad thing and all the talk and rhetoric in the world will not change it. We must pray that President Obama does not keep his promise if it comes before him.

That is the bottom line here.

I think Wade knows that. Our differences with each other really don't matter. This issue is not a" venting" issue L's Gran. My life does not revolve around blogging.

I am of a single issue here. it is FOCA.

Normally blogging is just a game I play from time-to-time.

I can vent to God and do. This is for the souls of people and the lives of the innocent.

Thy Peace,

Much of what you said in your last comment I can agree with, but I hope you do not see tolerance as the ultimate virtue. it is not the stairway to heaven.

Repentance of sin and faith in Jesus is the only biblical way to be at "thy peace" with a holy and just God.

cb

oc said...

to L's gran.

I have worked with adolescent offenders for the last 15 years. I know hope, I know failure.
I get it.
Just sayin'.
oc.

Debbie Kaufman said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
debbiekaufman said...

It doesn't matter what a person is against if the methods are not Christian. It's easy for anyone to go in and mow someone down with vitriol and name calling. It is a work of the Holy Spirit when someone does it with grace and love for the person doing the wrong act. That is what is wrong with being a cultural warrior. It's wrong. It doesn't work. It may work for a while but the affects aren't lasting as can be seen with each changing administration. Christ and the gospel is what changes not acts of legislation or administration. Paul never tried to change the government nor did Christ. People were what they were after. And the government then makes our government look like a cake walk.

Sometimes the methods used by cultural warriors looks more like that of a hate group than Christians wanting to change things.

oc said...

CB,
I think you are exactly right about FOCA. I agree with you. But I do disagree with your excessive and assaultive nature used to express your view. I don't think the assaultive demeanor you display gives way to any congitation nor equivication of ones station. Instead such offensive strategy incites nothing but defense. And if you don't give the opponent an opportunity to at least display their weaponry, then I don't know how an argument can be victorious if one is put in defense mode at the inset never to be able to show it's power.
In other words, even if you know you are right, you don't have to be a bully.
Do you?

Thy Peace said...

CB said ... " ... but I hope you do not see tolerance as the ultimate virtue. it is not the stairway to heaven.

Repentance of sin and faith in Jesus is the only biblical way to be at "thy peace" with a holy and just God."


All I can say is, even Our Lord Jesus Christ does not force us. He waits for us. I do not know anything of substance of Calvinism. From my perspective, I seem to be making a choice to turn to Our Lord Jesus Christ.

The only thing that will convict people's hearts are the price paid by Our Lord Jesus Christ. His death on the Cross, His burial and His resurrection. The Holy Spirit will play the role with The Word Of God, turning people from this world to Our Lord Jesus Christ.

I will be honest with you and God knows my heart. All this is head knowledge still to me. It has not penetrated to my heart, where the true decisions have to be made.
-----------------------------------
There are two articles Cynthia Gorney wrote for The New York Times, I would like to share. I believe as Cynthia Gorney believes, that Sarah Palin was muzzled in the last election from truly speaking her mind. Lot of her handlers, felt she might hurt the ticket to talk about her passion against abortion. I think that was a mistake. It would always be better to go down fighting and than to win a tepid race.

We are love one another. The Holy Spirit and The Word of God will convict and turn each person to Our Lord Jesus Christ.

True Lifer

Imagine a Nation Without Roe v. Wade

The last article might be provocative, but it's ok for Christians to be informed.

CB Scott said...

L's Gran,

You said:

"I don't have answers for anyone else but I KNOW that if I do not try to do WHAT I CAN to alleviate some of the suffering I see around me, I will be sinning against this rule of charity."

On this we agree.

In your corner I plead with you to do what you can to fight FOCA.

Stephen,

I have listened to and read these things for years.

Also, I do not care what others in Alabama think about me relating to this.

Call, write and email them all. It matters not one bit to me.

FOCA is wrong and if you could set your pride aside for just one moment and think about what it means you would agree. I have read your writings and I know you are not a pagan. You are actually a nice guy. Far more nice than me, I am sure, but you are terribly wrong about this. And it is just too bloody to be wrong about.

OC, I am glad you see the dangers of FOCA. I did not mean to be mean to a woman. I actually don't think I have been. I have probably been a greater friend to her tonight than most born-again believers that have been reading what she writes here, but have said nothing about the gospel.

I may have just been a better friend to you. I don't know of course. How could I. But I am not willing to take the chance by saying nothing. I hope you understand that. Same goes for you L's Gran or whatever your real names are.

cb

Anonymous said...

Mr. Scott,

You asked if I shared the Biblical Gospel with my students.

I know a little of your way of speaking about the Gospel but I do not share your faith OR relate to your way of speaking about faith.

I hold to this:
"Thy Word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against Thee."

My reverence for the Holy Words is this: take them to heart, not just memory. Then live the Gospel so that others can believe by your example. No 'undigested' Scripture allowed.
Much harder religion: I don't recommend it for people who have an easier way. No shortcuts for me. I must LIVE the Gospel. If you can't tell what I believe from my actions, then I never believed it. There are many Christian people who live their faith. You won't find them judging another's salvation, they are too humble for that. But they will give you something wonderful: a chance to SEE Christianity in action. They will speak of Him in their gentle ways towards others. Even towards those who cannot understand the Gospel ANY OTHER WAY.

So yes, the Living Word was honored in my classroom: I was kind and considerate towards some very troubled young people. I treated them with Christian compassion. They knew I cared.

They knew what my faith was.
I showed them how it could be lived. :) L's

P.S. I do not understand the mean-spiritedness of so many in the fundamentalist world. To me, it seems an alien faith. If I do not recognize much in it as Christian, it is probably because I don't see Christ in the meanness and in the judgmentalism. It wasn't HIS WAY. What happened that fundamentalism got so mean?

oc said...

CB, my name is Larry, if it makes any difference. Anybody can get my full name off of the email from my profile. I'm no chicken, if that's what you are intimating.
I have no problem with you expressing your opinion, in fact I agree with you on the FOCA thing. I just think maybe you could deal a little more gently with some other people. I know you would be more gentlemanly in person, and that's all I'm asking.
oc/Larry.

CB Scott said...

Debbie,

That is fine. Call me a culture warrior. I don't care. Call me mean. I don't care. Call me part of a hate group.

I don't think you have actually ever seen a hate group up close and personal. And I hope you never do.

Call me what you please. Call me the Antichrist if it makes you feel good. I don't care in this arena and at this moment in time. One thing is right in what you say. God will most certainly deal with me. There is no doubt about that.

But, I ask you here and now, admitting that I am all the bad you say here and more; Do you think it is a bad thing for our president to sign FOCA if it comes to his desk as he has promised he would upon becoming president?

cb

oc said...

CB,
Hang on bro.
I will certainly tell you why I don't like you.

It's because you are way too much like me.

But I love you anyway.

oc.

Thy Peace said...

Debbie said ... "It is a work of the Holy Spirit when someone does it with grace and love for the person doing the wrong act. "

Thanks Debbie.

Anonymous said...

Dear Mr. Scott,

If you could reduce the Gospel to a single word: what would it be?

JESUS ?
SALVATION ?
FAITH ?
HOPE ?
LOVE ?
FORGIVENESS?
RECONCILIATION?
LOVING-KINDNESS ? (a translation
from a Hebrew word)

Speak to me of the Gospel in
ONE WORD.
Then tell me why you choose that one word.
Thank you for caring. :)

My name on this blog is
L's Gran: short for
Lucy's Grand daughter
My grandmother, of blessed memory, was a Southern Baptist.

I don't give my real name out of respect for my husband's wishes.
He is a great guardian of our family's privacy.

CB Scott said...

L's Gran,

OK, Let's agree I am a mean fundamentalist. I will probably always come off as such.

My issue here and of late has been about the single issue of FOCA.

Let us lay that aside for a moment.

I want to ask you to do something and I will do something in return.

Wade Burleson knows me. His father Paul knows me. Bob Cleveland knows me. Many people who read this blog know me personally.
Even Debbie "knows of me" through Wade and Ben Cole.

It is true that some of these people who know me will agree with you that I am a mean person. Some of them will say; I am not all that bad once a person gets to know me. I doubt any of them will actually say I am a good person.

But all of them, unless they lie like dogs, will tell you I will keep my word and will go through hell or Texas to do so.

So here is the deal.

You like Wade Burleson. You seem to have respect for him. That is good. I know Wade. I know he understands the gospel in the same way as do I.

Where we differ has nothing to do with the gospel.

L's Gran, I will pay his way to you if you will let him share the gospel as he and I know it with you.

If that would be inconvenient for you; Let me ask you to do something of an alternative nature.

Find a pastor close to you. Ask him to call Wade. If he knows the gospel as Wade knows the gospel let that person share the gospel as we understand it with you.

L's Gran, I will freely admit that I am the worst person God ever saved from hell. I have no right to ask another person to do anything. I am sure that you have done far more for your fellow man than have I. I am sure I have done more harm to our fellow man in forty-five seconds than you will do in your whole lifetime.

Some of these folks here say I do not have a relationship with the Holy Spirit.
OK, but if they do, and even if they are right about me, if they have been born-again they will tell you all people must know Christ in the same way Wade will tell you if they truly love you and know Christ.

L's Gran, Let me be a low-life. Let me have to face God for being mean and devilish. There is nothing you can do to help someone like me, nor can Stephen, Debbie, Bob or Wade.

But, let me do this one thing for you. I beg you to get in contact with Wade and let him help you to understand the gospel as he knows it.

Remember God even used Cyrus the Persian to help the Jews out of bondage. Maybe He is seeking to use one worse than Cyrus to help you tonight.

IN CHRIST FREE,

cb

Darby Livingston said...

"I say: not to perform a therapeutic abortion needed to save the mother's life IS THE MURDER OF THE MOTHER."

Is this a bit of an overstatement? I'm concerned that this kind of statement would lead to all sorts of end of life guilt for those considering pulling the plug on loved ones who may have do-not-resuscitate requests, etc. Is not keeping alive by any means possible the same thing as actively taking a life? I don't think allowing someone to die is the same as murder. And in case one would think this makes me anti-pro-life, I am against all abortion in any and every circumstance with no exceptions. I once heard someone call a baby in the womb who was having complications a "disease" to the mother. I don't read that in the Bible and I find such logic inconsistent with belief in a sovereign God who reigns over the womb.

Bob Cleveland said...

L's Gran:

I can say this about CB .. and I believe I know him better than anyone who's commented on this blog: he plays it absolutely straight about the gospel, just as he does about kids. His advice is sound, in that respect, and if you do as he suggests you'll either (A) confirm your place in heaven, and the reason for it, or (B) find out something you'll be really glad you found out.

Also, L's Gran, I'd be happy to chat a bit about this stuff via email, which you can get at via linking to my profile. I don't care if I know names etc.

oc said...

L's Gran. Rest easy. He has all things within His hand. Even any of my stupidity is mitigated by His grace. Look not to me,nor anyone else, look only to Him. He simply loves.

Anonymous said...

Dear Mr. Scott,

I did not call YOU mean. Are you a fundamentalist? I think, in what I have been able to learn, that fundamentalism is an extreme in ANY religion: an extreme reaction from people who feel 'threatened' by those that do not agree with them. Out of that 'threatened' state, some act out on others in ways that reflect 'cocksureness' or worse.
The behavior is almost always very negative.

I don't know you. I do not understand your religion. I'm sorry. Maybe your words get in the way.

That happens a lot in Christianity: our words get in the way. Like defenses that we surround ourselves with. So we are not 'threatened' by others who see things differently.

We can judge another's character from his/her actions. If a person becomes a Christian, then Christ will become imprinted on the person's character in such a way that others can see HIM through the ACTIONS of the Christian.
No words needed.
Very vivid testimony. :)

Try my previous request concerning a chosen word for the Gospel. Words won't get in the way. Maybe I can begin to understand what you are 'saying'.
Thank you, L's

Darby Livingston said...

I've arrived so late in the game on this discussion - too busy eating turkey. I realize no one asked me, but I'll put my big mouth in the mix because I think it's an interesting question. After thinking for some time, I think the gospel could be reduced to the one word - resurrection. I'm going to make a sammich now.

Anonymous said...

Dear Bob Cleveland and O.C.

You both are so kind.

Bob, I cannot give out an e-mail address as it is not something that my husbands prefers for me to do.

But I do appreciate your offer, and I know you to be a good Christian from your writings. :)

O.C. you have a heart for people: that is a good thing to have. :)

I may know a little more than you think about the Gospel:

My brother teaches adults' Sunday School in a Methodist Church
He is no Calvinist, but he knows the Scriptures and we do share our ideas. He is doctor, but, if he were not, he would probably be a minister. He converted from my religion to his wife's faith so that they could raise their children in my sister-in-law's church.

Also, my mother had two cousins, both now deceased: one a missionary and one a minister.
I am friends with the minister's widow and we have lunch from time to time. She is a wonderful Christian lady, full of wisdom and peacefulness.

My own religion has the reading of the Gospel at every celebration.

I must keep my religion Christ-centered as I cannot understand any other way.

If you wonder what that's like: listen to the words of the hymn 'Be Thou My Vision'
It was written by Catholic Irish monks twelve centuries ago.
It reflects my faith.

You both ARE wonderful. L's

Thy Peace said...

I personally do not desire to convert L's Gran from Catholicism to Southern Baptist Christianity.

But I would like L's Gran to be aware of some things in southern baptists, which I am only learning now. I do not know how widespread this belief is.

Some southern baptists think Catholicism is a Cult. I do not agree with them. But some do. I also think there are some southern baptist churches that act like cults.

fcbjax: Jim Smyrl: Catholic Cult Series

fbcjax: Jim Smyrl: Catholic Cults, Part 1

Now Jim Smyrl has received some "criticism" from baptists here:

FBC JAX WATCHDOG: "Catholic Cult Series" - Please Don't Do it Jim

FBC JAX WATCHDOG: Cults Can Have "Good" Theology

the big daddy weave: A Southern Baptist War on the Catholic Church "Cult"

BAPTISTLIFE.COM: FBC Jax declaring war on Roman Catholics?

Thy Peace said...

This was the originating post of Jim Smyrl that started this "debate":

fbcjax: Jim Smyrl: Voting Yourself out of Fellowship

Jake Barker said...

OC (Larry),
I can assure you that I am no alter ego to CB. I am certainly no BI type and CB is. I am Arminian/Wesleyan in my theology and he for sure is not. I don't even think it is essential to be immersed for the method of baptisim (but is the preffered method). I believe in a Christian being able to use beverage alcohol in moderation. I even own a wine and spirits store. We fight like cats and dogs but one thing besides the monstrosity of abortion we agree on is the eternal salvation of each other and the way we obatin mercy and grace and forgiveness of our many sins. I respect him because unlike many clergy, you can take what he says to the bank. His words are his bond. And we both keep our edged cutting tools sharp, guns clean and well oiled and our ammo dry. Now if this is not enough to prove we differ you gotta be either stupid or can't read. Did I mention that he is a nicer guy than me?

Only By His Grace said...

Now let me get this straight.

Christ is murdered on the cross; He is buried in the grave Wednesday, Thursday or Friday (that Sabbath starting at sundown according to John was a Tum Shov or High Sabbath which could come on any day of the week); He goes to the place of the "dead ones" (or is it Tartarus to the fallen angels held in chains for judgment?) and proclaims to them, "Look what they did to Me; I am dead; you won."

For if all He could proclaim was His death, He could not have proclaimed victory. There was no victory until He was in the grave three days and three nights according to His own words concerning Jonah then gloriously arose from the dead.

I have a feeling He appeared to no one until after His resurrection.

Am I missing something? I, also, have a problem with "second chance" after you are dead salvation; however, that is a different matter.

Like to be "Cocksure" about this.

Phil in Norman.

Bob Cleveland said...

L's Gran;

In respecting your husband's wishes, you set a good example.

Feel free also to check in on my blog and to comment. I'm about to post some stuff you might find interesting, too.

Thanks for the kind words (if I was included there....)

CB Scott said...

L's Gran,

Please know I rarely feel "threatened" even when actually threatened.

Yet, my last comment to you was a "reaction" of sorts.

I cannot explain the gospel in just one word in this particular situation. It will not work. That is the reason I asked you to call Wade, whom you trust.

L's Gran, God is a just God. he is the only God. There is none other than Him.

Because he is a just God he demands justice. If we think about it we actually want Him to be a just God.

When people look at all of the anguish and pain and oppression in the world they cry out for justice. They ask if God is real; let Him bring justice.

L's Gran, there are many terrible people in this world who have done terrible things. I am to be counted among them to my shame.

Yet, I am not alone. You, L's Gran are just as terrible as am I and all the others. You have sinned and rebelled against a just and holy God. You deserve justice. You deserve death and hell.

Why? God demands justice against sin and evil and you are evil.

Yet, there is hope. Not that God will suspend his justice, but that he will execute it.

He did execute His justice. He executed it against His own Son.

Romans 5:8-11 says:

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that , we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Much more then, being now, justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath though him.

For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement."

You see, L's Gran, God exercised His justice and wrath against His own Son because he loves. Even though we are mean and evil and without a true desire to please Him. he did that.

God so loved you, L's Gran, that he gave His Son to die for you sin and rebellion that you might not perish.

L's Gran, if you have sensed any reality at all that you are sinful and evil and in rebellion toward God as you have read this; I beg you to ask God to forgive you of your sin right now.

Romans 10:13 reveals that: "..whosoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved."

If you believe Christ has died for you as the gospel has stated and you trust Him alone as the only way of salvation from sin's penalty, God's wrath and hell's certainty, then, L's Gran, by all means cry out to Him in repentance and faith and you will know Him as Savior and Lord of your life.

God loves you and has made atonement for your sin through the blood of His Son. Being Good and having religion is of no use to you as far as removing the guilt of sin from your life and keeping you from hell is concerned.

Religion will only get you:


A head filled with knowledge,
A heart filled with vain promises
and
An eternity filled with hell.

Jesus is life, but you must repent and place your faith in His atonement and in that alone.

Call upon the name of the Lord, L's Gran and be saved. If you sense any conviction that this is true and that you have sinned against God, then be broken before Him right now and call upon Him to save you.

I will pray for you. I think others will too.

IN CHRIST FREE,
cb

Rick said...

Happy Thanksgiving weekend to all.

CB Scott said...

Thy Peace,

You said:

"I personally do not desire to convert L's Gran from Catholicism to Southern Baptist Christianity."

Nor do I.

If she has only "Southern Baptist Christianity" or only "Catholicism" she will go to hell as will you if that is all you have.

Also, I can convert no one. Conversion is a thing of God and not man. All I can do is what any can do who knows Him in the free pardon of sin.

That is to tell people of the gospel. It is God who saves and God alone. He provided for our salvation and the Bible says: "For whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Salvation is of God and not man, be he Methodist, Baptist, Catholic, etc.

Thy Peace,

Please read my last comment to L's Gran.

Please, do that.

If I am a wretched man and a fundamentalist, then so be it. I can live with that and God can and most certainly judge me.

But, my good man, you can not live and escape hell without the atonement of Jesus in your life for your sin and willful rebellion against God. Being Baptist or Catholic cannot save you from the wrath to come. Only Jesus as the biblical gospel says can do that.

cb

CB Scott said...

Thy Peace,

What Jimmy Smyrl has said is worthless here.

I don't know him. I have had some conversations with his boss back years ago, but I don't really know him either.

Thy Peace, a lot of people say a lot of things. That is definitely true in my case. Some of which I wish I could reclaim, but I can't. I have repented in bitter tears and still do often for I am often overcome with stupidity and my passion is bold and quick sometimes.

But here, I beg you to just read the comment and examine the Scripture as quoted.

Again, being Baptist or Catholic means very little(nothing) relating to what we are speaking of here.

Let me and Jimmy Smyrl be condemned and judged of God for our tongues, but if you read the comment and have any reality of the need to be forgiven for your sinful rebellion toward God, then by all means call upon Him to save you.

cb

Only By His Grace said...

CB Scott,

Let me see, I Thessalonians 5:23, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless until the coming of Jesus Christ."

I think most would agree that one of the ways mankind is in the image of God is that as God is a trinity and so are human beings (Father, Son, Holy Spirit; body, soul, spirit).

We know the body consists of flesh, blood and bone; we know the spirit is the life that animates us and returns to God at the instance of death; but what is this thing called "soul" or pseuche in Greek? Put "ology" on the word and you have pseuche-ology or Anglicize the word and you have Psychology.

Could this "soul" be intellect, will and emotion in Biblical terms but what most schools of psychology would call cognition, volition and emotion?

If this be so, when does a fertilized egg become a living soul having body, soul and spirit? When does this zygote or fertilized egg think, feel and decide?

If it is murder (abortion), does this include such things as tubal pregnancies where the fertilized egg does not quite make it to the womb, but latches on the wall of a fallopian tube? I know at least eight godly women in churches I have pastored who had tubal pregnancies. The only way you can save a woman's life with a tubal pregnancy is to abort the fertilized egg.

Does that fertilized egg have the same importance as a four year little girl who is taken out to the lake, raped, killed and buried? We know what would happen to that person and all who had anything to do with it or even knew about it.

Are those people who knew about the tubal pregnancy abortion as guilty as those who knew about the little girl and did nothing? Should they not have the same penalty put on them?

How come this issue has never been debated in evangelical circles in a sane manner, but only those who speak the loudest with the most emotions are allowed to dominate without anyone else ever having a chance to say, "Wait just one minute. It is not that simple just to call good people murderers."

You seem to delight in calling such people murderers; albeit you seem so gentle and loving in other matters where I read your comments.

Your words cause tremendous harm to such women, and to those who have been ganged raped, and to those who have a fetus with such things as hydrocephalus. One of my first cases as a young pastor while I was at OBU was a nine year old who was being raped time and again by her father on my church field. She began her period when she was nine. What if she became pregnant and her doctor determined her small body was too small to have a baby? Should she be abjudicated as an adult before being tried in court for murder?

Don't be so "cocksure" you have the final and be-all answers to the abortion question. You need to tread lightly and lovingly in this matter. Murderer is terrible name to call someone.

Phil in Norman.

CB Scott said...

Phil,

Now of what you are saying here relates to my position on FOCA or the abortion as a whole for that matter.

I have been down this road with this argument before from guys like you.

And please don't, from your sanitized world, talk to me about little girls who have been raped.

For you to talk to me about such thing is like a bug spiting in the ocean in comparison between our lives.

Maybe someday we will meet in person and we can discuss the evil that men do and how many of them actually get by with it because "good people" don't really care when push comes to shove.

BTW, when you found out about he father who raped his baby girl, what did you do with him? I couldn't help but ask that. And there is no need to answer one way or the other.

cb

Wayne Smith said...

ALL,

I forwarded this e-mail on 11/18/2008 to some of the people commenting on this post. Just how many of you stood up for Jesus Christ and signed this petition? As some say put up of Shut Up. You all have chance to sign this petition.
I second the last comment Bob Cleveland made.
Dear Fellow Christians,
What Is the Freedom of Choice Act?
As many know, Senator Obama told Planned Parenthood in 2007 that “the first thing I’d do as President is sign the Freedom of Choice Act.”

No matter your political persuasion or feeling on the role of politics, it's a simple thing you can do to help fight against this legislation, which would:
eradicate state and federal laws that the majority of Americans support, such as:
· · Bans on Partial Birth Abortion
· · Requirements that women be given information about the risks of getting an abortion
· · Only licensed physicians can perform abortions
· · Parents must be informed and give consent to their minor daughter's abortion
FOCA would erase these laws and prevent states from enacting similar protective measures in the future.
TO HONOR GOD, PLEASE SIGN THIS PARTITION HERE

http://www.fightfoca.com/

Wayne Smith

CB Scott said...

Phil,

That should have been: "None" of what you are saying here relates to my position on FOCA or the abortion "issue" as a whole for that matter.

I hope the correction helps with the intent of the statement.

cb

Jack said...

L's Gran:

One word to describe Christianity?

Salvation.

Blessings to You,

-jack-

Anonymous said...

I guess I've been away from the blog for too long.

First, Louis. As I said before, I feel I know less about raising children now then before I started. But a few words of advice anyway, for what they're worth. Most of the time parents of teenagers can do nothing right in their eyes, or at least that the teenagers will admit. This is just part of the territory; accept it. It is very important that they know that you will be there for them when they need you. Just love them and do your best.

As for the abortion issue. I think more will be accomplished by helping women avoid unwanted pregnancies and when they happen helping them cope with the situation than just passing laws against it. Things like availability of health care for the woman and the child later, helping her find or keep a job, have money to live on when she cannot work, provision of child care while she works if she must, getting child support from the father if they are not married, "living wages" for parents, etc. I think these are more likely to happen under the incoming administration than under the previous one that claimed to be pro-life, but cut back on so many of these things that would help parents provide for children.

Susie

Anonymous said...

Just 3 personal observations today:

1. Susie said, "I think these (referring to the helps for the mother and baby) are more likely to happen under the incoming administration..."

I would submit that none of the "helps" she listed above will even be needed under the new administration. The baby will be DEAD! Under the Obama admin., the mother can simply get on with her life and hopefully not get pregnant again so she won't have to have another "unfortunate" abortion.

2. The "life of the mother" position discussed a few comments above is hogwash. There are not 4000 abortions EVERYDAY due to the "life of the mother" concerns.

The "life of the mother" cases are indeed tragic and should be handled case by case. But don't insult those mothers by mixing them in with the other "mothers" who just sleep around, or "don't feel ready" to have a baby, or don't want "another baby", or don't want a "special needs baby", or don't want "another girl / boy"...or, or , or.

3.Where were all you people a few posts back regarding L's Gran? She has clearly stated her position as one of a works based salvation many times, but only a few came to offer her a biblical response.

Everyone seemed to sit in "ignorance acceptance" of her unbiblical view of salvation and would only be willing to comment if the topic was about Calvinism or abortion or if women should have authority over men in the church.

It seems there was / is no concern for her salvation as long as she agrees with you about women's roles, Calvinism, or some other relatively unimportant topic.

oc said...

Anon:
There is a time for everything under Heaven. (Ecclesiates). It's coming.

oc.

Thy Peace said...

I always try to re-re-read the main post after ALL the comments are in, and it always speaks more clearly to me than before.

Thank you Pastor Wade.

"May God give us all a little humility to understand we are fallible men and women, and it is much better to elucidate one's views rather than advocate them."

Amen.

Thy Peace said...

Off Topic:

For all the windows users, here are two links that might be useful for you. Awareness is the issue here. Do not be alarmed after reading the articles. It's always good to know about computer infections running around.

Windows Secrets: Don't be a victim of Sinowal, the super-Trojan by Woody Leonhard

Windows Secrets: Antivirus tools try to remove Sinowal/Mebroot by Woody Leonhard

Rex Ray said...

L’s,
I’ve read many comments from you that make me adore your stand for God, and your love for the people he ‘executed’ his Son at Calvary for their salvation through their faith in Jesus.

Last week, an acquaintance was desperate for a job. His truck had broken down, so I drove eight miles to get him at his mother’s to help me cut brush. He was forty five and had won two national ‘strong men’ competitions. He worked in a rage of angry because he found some letters and his wife had broken the Ten Commandments. He had beaten a stranger unconscious and had broken his wife’s nose ‘accidentally’ as she tried to stop him. Next on his list was his ‘friend’. I told him his friend would be carrying a gun and he’d be dead. He had condemned his wife to hell. I disagreed that breaking God’s law did not send a person to hell, but only not being saved. He got so angry he left on foot.

L’s, the devils greatest victory was confusing his greatest defeat—Calvary. How man is saved was first debated in Acts 15, and has been debated ever since. In that debate, the devil mixed ‘apples’ and ‘oranges’. ‘Apples’ was how men are saved, while ‘oranges’ was how Gentiles were to get along with Jews.

Peter gave the ‘apples’—all are saved the same way by the free gift of Jesus, and James gave the ‘oranges’—three food laws and a ‘being good’ law (works).

The letter to the Gentiles was ‘oranges’ but omitted the ‘apples’.

The Gentiles thought the letter was ‘apples’ and Paul fought against it to his dieing day.

L’s, you remember my uncle that refused to fight in World War II and stood at attention while looking death in the eye?

He was in his pasture and heard a voice: “Go to Ector.” (A small town with one store.) He looked around to see no one. After a while, he heard the voice again. He went to his house and asked if they needed anything from the store. His wife said no, and he said he thought he’d go anyway.

The store said so and so was on his deathbed, and he died three days later. Everyone knew the man was not a Christian. My uncle rushed over to urged him to accept Christ.

He said, “Hez, I don’t know how.”

My uncle, asked him to take his hand and repeat the sinner’s prayer after him. The man did, and yelled for his wife to come. He told her, “I’ve got some hay to haul!”

“You old fool, you’re in no shape to haul hay”, but he was smiling ear to ear.

The poor man with one cow had been sealing hay from my father, and being saved, the man wanted to make things right.

Only By His Grace said...

C.B. and Bob Cleveland,

CB, you asked me a question about what I did with the incest case of the child. Here is my answer:

I was converted at twenty years old (July 17, 1960), and had never been to church in my life before then; eleven months later God called me to the ministry (June 7, 1961); exactly one year and eleven months after my conversion (June 5, 1962) I took my first church outside Wynnewood, OK. It was during that summer in August I was faced with the incest situation.

What did I do? I punted. I fled to mother church (FBC Wynnewood) where Dr. Bob Wood was pastor; and then to my pastor at Putnam City Baptist Church (Dr. Max Stanfield); together they walked me through dealing with the girl, her siblings and her mother while the State of Oklahoma incarcerated her father. They moved soon after and I lost track of the family; however, I will never forget the months of pure agony and terror of that situation.

Maybe I haven't been where you have been. I was the living on campus Chaplin for the Rio Grande Children's Home from July 4, 1982 until December 5, 1985. We were licensed for one hundred and twenty children with about fifty to seventy-five children on campus at any given time. I dealt with the parents, children, house parents and teachers of these children. I do not know much, but I knew four girls with fathers in prison for having incest with them. I knew the incest began at 8, 9, and 12 and for these four girls. I knew it ended up with one beautiful girl being shot and killed because of her awful home condition when she left our children's home to live with an uncle in Harlingen against our advice and her wishes.

True, I don't know much and have not lived as you have lived; however, what I know is what I know. For some reason a fertilized egg in the first tri-semester does not pack the same wallop for me as a born four year old child.

BTW, I have never counseled abortion to anyone in forty-six years in the pulpit.

As much as I respect you and Bob Cleveland, would you answer my questions about murder, accessory to murder (those knowing about it and those helping), hydrocephalus (brain of fetus is liquid but brain stem is still active), tubal pregnancies, gang rape of a child or woman. The accusation of murder to anyone who has aborted a fertilized egg as in the morning after pill or the IUD demands an answer to those many women who are harboring deep guilt from such accusations.

In all God's knitting in the womb, when does that knitting form a soul and what is the soul. It does not tell us in the Psalm does it?

One more thing, I am seeking the truth in this matter. I doubt if my wife and I are going to get an abortion in the next few yeas at sixty-eight years old. Ain't ever had one and ain't ever going to get one.

Phil in Norman.

Wayne Smith said...

All,

My second to Bob Cleveland’s comment was in regard Bob’s defending CB Scott to those that are not long term Bloggers. Of all the Bloggers That have been around here, CB Scott Has the Biggest HEART for the LORD and is the Most Honest Christian I know.
CB is a straight talker and may come across as a little rough around the edges. One thing I know is that he can be trusted.

Brother Wade Burleson should be Man enough to say the same thing I have said here.

Wayne Smith

Anna A said...

I'm late to this discussion, but let me say somethings about FOCA.

First, I am completely against this, especially since it will make it harder for those helping expectant mothers to choose life.

There is a good chance that any people standing outside of abortion clinics could be jailed, etc. Even those peacefully praying.

If all hospitals are required to offer abortions on demand, what protects crisis pregnancy centers from the same? So, the very clinics that offer help for a mother to bear her child will be eliminated?

And what about parents, who would encourage their daugther to give birth and place the baby up for adoption, if they only knew about the pregnancy. ALL possibility of this will be gone. (Except for the medical bills if the abortion is botched,)

With the possibility of more late-term abortions, more women are likely to die from abortions.

I agree, that we need to work on prevention of abortion, but sometimes a guard rail is needed before the curve is fixed.

Bob Cleveland said...

Phil,

First off, anyone looking for a "good answer", in earthly matters, for the results of sin, is going to be disappointed. IMO, there simply isn't one.

All the cases you mentioned concern earthly agony among people who are already born, and where amelioratng that agony is the objective, people are faced with either 1) having the child and, keeping the child, or placing that child somewhere else, or 2)killing that child. I'd vote for 1) even if it were my own granddaughter who were involved.

Agony? Yes. Of course. But it would not be the agony I described in the poem I wrote some years ago, which still brings tears to my eyes when I read it.

Only By His Grace said...

C.B.

My comment was about your earlier comment before the comment about FOCA.

I just believe terms must be defined and refined before we can come to theological conclusions which affect our political system and so many people. My comment really had nothing to do with FOCA. It just happened to land in the middle of your argumentation.

I know you love the Lord, and I believe you know we who disagree with you love Him, too.

Bob,

I agree in so many ways, but when we call ALL abortion murder, we shut down all reasoning and must take sides which throw us into radicalism on either side of the question.

Phil.

Phil in Norman.

Bob Cleveland said...

Phil,

God told Jeremiah that He knew him before God formed him in the womb. I figure that applies to everyone formed in the womb.

In light of that, despite all the best scientific reasoning of all the educated minds, I cannot think of the terminating of a pregnancy as anything other than killing a child that God already knows.

My last words here.

oc said...

I know I'm not a regular commenter here, but I have read this blog daily for over a year. Even so, I will state my opinion. Every abortion is a murder, whatever the circumstance, whatever the rationale may be.

Just sayin'.
oc.

debbiekaufman said...

Wayne: Someone is a Christian because of faith in Christ alone, not because they did or did not sign a petition. Appeal to sign a petition, don't question someone's Christianity if they don't sign. That's manipulation pure and simple. Unbiblical manipulation.

Next: I cannot in good conscience condone CB's language or methods. I am against FOCA and will stand against it. But radicalness is not the right way either. Calling Christians who disagree with them names isn't right either. Calling someone a non-Christian because they don't see things your way isn't right nor any of this Biblical. The Bible is my final authority. Stand against abortion, stand against FOCA. But do it in a civilized way or more people will be hurt than are killed through abortion. That is my point. The methods are what I am against. Not the cause. The Dobson method is not the right way. Neither is the Terry Randall method. It's more destructive than helpful. It's Christ that ultimately changes lives, not brutality or name calling which is one in the same.

Anonymous said...

THY PEACE said,

"All I can say is, even Our Lord Jesus Christ does not force us. He waits for us."

Yes, He does.
ALL were made to seek Him. This reminds me of an ancient saying:

"I hear a voice from deep within my soul calling:

"Come, Come to the Father "

gmommy said...

Why are tubal / ectopic pregnancies being discussed in the same category as abortions here??

To my knowledge early abortions are done with a suction method. No way around labeling that as an abortion.

Someone very close to me recently experienced an ectopic pregnancy. She was bleeding internally and doubled over in pain when she made it to the emergency room.

She didn't choose to "abort" her baby. If her body didn't expell tha baby naturally immediately, she could have died from rupture and internal bleeding.There was no chance for the baby to live at all.

They didn't use any type of suction method. They did a surgical procedure to prevent the tube from rupturing completely.

Why should a mother feel guilt over this?
Should her thinking be so extreme that she allow herself to die?? I don't see how that would be best for the children depending on her at home.

Surely no one sees this type of situation as an abortion???

I get sick to know people have late term abortions with babies that if born could survive.
But I agree with Phil in this particular area.

Seems like it's way too easy for Christians (in general) to judge and kick the already wounded.

oc said...

No gmommy.
I just meant for "convenience".
oc.

oc said...

Hi Debbie.
I have great respect for you. I have seen and agreed with many of your comments, disagreed sometimes, and have visited your blog often. I have great respect for the way you set forth truth. You are brave, and you display the Lord's image in your demeanor.

Yet I do understand CB's passion.
He displays the Lord's image too.
Just in a different way. I understand CB's passion. That's just because I'm passionate too. Sometimes I will hurt people in the process of making a point. I tend to forget that there are feelings attached to the topic other than mine, so I tend to get into the warrior mode. It's a good thing sometimes. But at times, it has been a very big problem for me, and I'm trying hard to repent of my harsh and pointed tactics.
All the intentions were pure. Yet the method was a bit faulty. I am not the judge of all that, but I would just suggest that maybe CB is where I am at.

And CB, I didn't mean to speak for you. I just feel like we are a lot alike, so I just spoke from that place.

Anyway, I'm thankful for both Debbie and CB. They have both given me much in the Lord. Thanks.

oc.

Anonymous said...

Hi REX RAY,

I loved your story about the old man and the hay. Your stories are wonderful and I understand them perfectly. Modern true parables about the love of God. Wonderful!

Your theology is kinda confusing, though. I have read carefully but I'm not able to 'get it'.
Don't worry, I'm sure some readers here understood, just not me this time.



To THY PEACE,
Thank you for accepting me as I am. Reminds me of that Billy Graham favorite hymn "Just As I Am, I Come To Thee"
Beautiful hymn.

I did not know that people thought my Church was a 'cult' ! I do know that there are a lot of sites on the web that give out the STRANGEST information about my Church which I know is not correct. So maybe, these writers have influenced others. It's okay.
I'm sure not here to convert anyone who is not born into my religion because, if people ARE peaceful where there are, that makes me happy.

Someone here said that 'we fight like cats and dogs'. Well, you all do rather, but you are all the most ENDEARING 'cats and dogs' ever: everyone trying to help each other understand something that each values in faith. Some of the methods of communicating are just a little extreme, but, when I read carefully, I can make out the underlying desire of people here to help one another: and that is a beautiful thing to see.
That's important. :)



Dear Mr. Scott,

You are a person of strong faith, as I am. Because we are different, we see the Father differently. I will tell you that I believe God to be a merciful Father. I believe this to be true because He has intervened mercifully in my own life in a thousand ways.
He tempers His judgment with Mercy towards ALL His Creation, even the animals. (I am not Calvinistic.)
I see SO MUCH good in others and I know the Author of that good is the Father. Done in faith, one kind act towards another person in this world has the power to heal the pain caused by much evil. The kind act is not done 'for credit toward Salvation'.
It is done for the love of God and for the love of another in accordance with the commandment of Christ.
In this way, we honor Him by helping someone and they realize that He cares for them through our kindness. The unselfish and unconditional care of another is a holy thing when done to honor God, in my religion. It is a prayer in action.
Christ has conquered Death and Evil. In my religion, we listen to the angels who say 'Fear Not' and 'Be Not Afraid'. My parish Church expresses this: it is named for Christ:
"Prince of Peace."

We see things differently, and that's okay. I am peaceful and I hope you are also. Under all that BLUSTER, I think you are a kind person. Did you know you were kind? I know it. L's

oc said...

L's.
How about I tell you that I love you, and the One who loves me told me so?

Thy Peace said...

L's Gran: Thanks for your comments. To be fair, ALL people fight with each other. It's in our nature. I have seen Catholics fight with each other too. History is replete with examples. So do Southern Baptists, Baptists of all stripes and other denominations. Now if only we fight in a civil way and a Christian Way that would be much better. :-)

Head on over to the new post now. Come on all you stragglers. :-)

oc said...

Thy peace.
No, I'm not going to the other thread until L's gran has been
fully heard. I respect what she has to say, so I will wait here.
oc.

Anonymous said...

Hi ANNA,

It's me, L's.

I read your writing about various concerns to do with options offered as alternatives to abortion.

I am aware of the Catholic Family Services and Jewish Family Services. Is there a Protestant organization that offers help for young women of the caliber of the two organizations I have mentioned? There must be. I am not aware of it in the community where I live. L's



Hi G MOMMY,

You wrote: "Seems like it's way too easy for Christians (in general) to judge and kick the already wounded."

Christians are WARNED not to sit in judgment. Too many ignore this warning: I believe they do this at the peril of their souls.
Kicking someone when they are down is a horrible sin. Doing it in the Name of the Lord is blasphemy. I don't understand this kind of 'Christianity'. It is not something I could ever believe in. L's

Anonymous said...

Dear OC:

I knew you felt that way before I ever read it. (Holy Spirit's work, I think. )
You are a blessed person in this world and I thank God for you. :) L's

See you on the next post! L's G.

Only By His Grace said...

Bob,

Paul says along with Jeremiah that "and hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world."

The way I look at it, if God chose me in Christ before the overthrow of the world in the rebellion of Lucifer some twenty billion years ago, then I could not have been aborted no matter what my mother wanted to do when she became pregnant.

I do not believe Paul or David or Jeremiah are speaking about abortion.

Phil.

Bob Cleveland said...

Phil,

I lied. Another word.

By your logic, God doesn't know any baby that's in its mother's womb, if that baby is to be killed by abortion.

OK. I believe He does.

We can both explain our rationale to God, some day.

Only By His Grace said...

Bob,

I agree and that is why I refuse to call abortion murder which does not mean that I do not take abortion very seriously. There is so much we do not understand. I know of no committed Christian who believes we should have abortion on demand.

I have a suspicion that most abortions in the US are by parents who accidently get pregnant and do not want to have that fourth, fifth or sixth child and the abortion is usually in the second month of the first tri-semester or as soon as they find out they are pregnant.

Phil.

bryan riley said...

Ok, I really didn't feel like taking time to read every word, so I may have missed something that some considered critical... but, honestly, it seems some have come to teh conclusion that L's gran doesn't know the gospel or isn't a follower of Jesus and I'm scratching my head trying to determine how they are so sure of it?

Anonymous said...

Hi Bryan,

'Tis true her heart can't be truly known by us mere mortals, but a quick glance through at her comments on this post and others will give a clear picture of a works based position.

Many details are being skipped in that short answer of course. The quickest and most conclusive way to find out is to ask her yourself the direct question.

Anonymous said...

Hi Bryan Riley,

It's me, L's Gran.

I wrote this before:

"Done in faith, one kind act towards another person in this world has the power to heal the pain caused by much evil. The kind act IS NOT DONE 'for credit toward Salvation'.
It is done for the love of God and for the love of another in accordance with the commandment of CHRIST .
In this way, we honor Him by helping someone and they realize that He cares for them through our kindness. The unselfish and unconditional care of another is a holy thing when done to honor God, in my religion. It is a prayer in action."

I do believe that Christianity is to be LIVED with every strength given to us by the Good Lord. Christianity is a WAY OF LIFE in my faith. For us, it is a journey with the Lord, a journey that has already begun, lasting a life-time and on into Eternity.

HE said 'love one another, as I have loved you' and I take Him at His word. He gave everything He had for us. In His Name,we can at least share something of who we are and what we have to give in this world with others. Yes, I walk with HIM.
The 'other way' wouldn't work for me. I know this. L's

Anonymous said...

L's, your comment doesn't address Brian's inquiry, but it does begin to reveal where you would go with your answer to the question he posed.

Brian, given L's comment above I assume you understand now.

debbiekaufman said...

L's: Was it faith in Christ only that saved you from your sins and that loving God, Christ, and others, doing good things is a result of that not the cause of your salvation?

If you did nothing but have faith in Christ, do you believe you would still be a Christian and on your way to heaven?

Thy Peace said...

My thoughts on this matter:

If you look at the Saints of old, and dig deep, they will tell you the Source of their everything is Our Lord Jesus Christ. This is the cause. This is the heart of everything.

The effect or results are the works.

Clearly we can not see Lord Jesus Christ. We can behold him or touch him. We have the Word of God.

How do we believe in the Word of God.

By Faith.

By Faith, we believe in Him and He forgives us of our sins and He died for us on the Cross, lay in the earth for three days, and rose again.

All this is by Faith. For clearly we were not there.

The works and Love we exhibit are mostly done out of Love for Our Savior. Lot of times, the work is done without love but the love can and will grow.

The works we do, will never be right with God. They are considered filthy rags in His sight. But by Faith, once we call on His Name and ask for forgiveness of our sins, we truly become His.

I honestly think these questions are central to ALL christians. I do not think catholics are exempt from this. But at the same time, I would not pressure others to accept this. I would only state this is the only way to righteousness. I fully do not understand the words salvation, sanctification (I understand them on some level, but not to my satisfaction). I feel they are gifts, freely given, but they cost Our Lord Jesus Christ much.

This is my neophyte understanding.

Thy Peace said...

Correction:

"... We can behold him ..." should read " ... We can not behold him ...".

Thy Peace said...

"If you did nothing but have faith in Christ, do you believe you would still be a Christian and on your way to heaven?"

Yes. Yes. Yes. (for emphasis)

"Was it faith in Christ only that saved you from your sins and that loving God, Christ, and others, doing good things is a result of that not the cause of your salvation?"

Yes. It is Faith in Christ only that saves me from my sins and that loving God, Christ, and others, doing good things is a result of that, not the cause of my salvation.

debbiekaufman said...

Thy Peace: Thank you, that's great.

I didn't ask L's because she is Roman Catholic but for clarification.

debbiekaufman said...

BTW: I happen to agree with what L has written. She has a very good grasp of what it is to be a Christian.

Thy Peace said...

Thanks Debbie. Also, thanks Anna A for the next post comments.

Anonymous said...

Hi DEBBIE KAUFMANN,

It's me, L's Gran.

I seem to be put in the
Baptist Dog House for Heretics, and it is a little lonely in here. I hope I get let out soon. :)

Your questions are 'Baptist' in the way you phrase them. I will try to answer as a member of my own faith AND still keep the integrity of your questions.

First: YES The Sacrifice of Jesus Christ as the Lamb of God conquered Death and gave all of us a chance to go to heaven.

I am a mortal sinner and MY actions have NO power to save me from death.

SECOND: This one is strange. If I did not BEHAVE as a Christian person in the world, would I have believed in Jesus to begin with?

I do believe in Our Lord as the Savior of the World, but IF I sin in a way that breaks the great commandments of God, AND if I do not repent of my sin, and do not ask God's forgiveness, I cannot expect to go to heaven with that sin on my conscience.


I must say, I think that for myself. I cannot think it for anyone else. It is what I believe for me.

Do we help another because of a reward: credit towards heaven?
NO WAY
We help another for the love of Christ.

Do we sin against the rule of charity if we refuse to care for another? ABSOLUTELY

I am told at Church:
'Go in peace
to love and serve the Lord.'

What Christian would not WANT to do that with ALL their heart and soul and mind and strength? And do it for the LOVE of God. I cannot even imagine it.

When I am judged, God would want to know what I did with all the talents and gifts He gave me to care for others and I would have to answer for my lack of loving-kindness. I would definitely disappoint my loving Father if I rejected the use of His gifts, given to me for His service in the Kingdom.

But I know it is the
Holy Lamb of God Who saves us,
not my own actions.

If we are covered in the Blood of the Lamb, we will be saved, as the Israelites of old were saved when the Angel of Death passed over.
Thanks Be To God.

L's

bryan riley said...

Anony,

Given her response, even the first one without the further clarification, I would say she has a perfect grasp on what being a Christian is, so perhaps I too am lost?

I don't see a works based response in her replies. I do think she may use language you wouldn't use, which is not uncommon when one gets outside of their own culture - another great reason to be a cross-cultural missionary and to get outside of one's denomination from time to time.

debbiekaufman said...

L's: You certainly are not in the Baptist dog house with me nor have you ever been and I believe you. I just wanted to be sure I was reading you correctly. Thank you for answering.

debbiekaufman said...

L's: You said this:

"SECOND: This one is strange. If I did not BEHAVE as a Christian person in the world, would I have believed in Jesus to begin with?"

I smiled when I read that, because its hard to be what we are not, which is a Christian isn't it. But people do have struggles with addictions, certain sins, which would make it outwardly appear that they are not Christians. This is why I asked this question. Yet, it is their faith in Christ not their struggles that is the reason they are born again.

Bryan: I agree.

Anonymous said...

Dear BRYAN and DEBBIE,

Now that I'm a Christian again, safely, at least for now, out of the dog house,
I feel like singing:
.
Do you know this beautiful hymn about the Holy Lamb of God?

Do Baptists sing it? L's


Your only Son
No sin to hide
But You have sent Him,
From Your side
To walk upon this guilty sod
And to become the Lamb of God

Your gift of Love
They crucified
They laughed and scorned him as he died
The humble King
They named a fraud
And sacrificed the Lamb of God

Chorus:
Oh Lamb of God, Sweet lamb of God
I love the Holy Lamb of God
Oh wash me in His precious Blood
My Jesus Christ the Lamb of God

I was so lost I should have died
But You have brought me to Your side
To be led by Your staff and rod
And to be call a lamb of God

Chorus

Oh wash me in His precious Blood
My Jesus Chris the Lamb of God


So beautiful, this hymn. :)
It has such meaning for me. L's




P.S. to DEBBIE,
I understand. Some of the best people I know are Christians who work down at the food bank and who receive help there: they are former (I hope) addicts, some have done time, and some have a myriad of emotional problems: but ALL share one thing: We are a CRISTIAN community there: they are His and they know it. I am glad I know them and I love them. Maybe it is our struggles and trials here on Earth that break our hearts enough so that we CAN see Christ and be grateful for His Healing Love. :) L's

debbiekaufman said...

I know the hymn well L's. It's one of my favorites.

Rex Ray said...

Hi L’s,
It’s me, Rex

See, I like even the way you start a comment. Your “It’s me” reminds me of my brother, Hez, yelling, “It’s me, Daddy, it’s me!”

He’d just been hit by a flying tackle of 210 pounds of muscle going about the speed of sound.
In the dark at thirty below in Fairbanks, Alaska, he was playing a ‘trick’ on his wife by scratching on the windows. She was accustomed to his ‘tricks’ but didn’t know while coaching basketball he’d been removed from the gym for heckling the referee. Terrified, she’d phoned our father about a block away that someone was trying to break in.

Unable to get up from the snow and knowing there was only one man that strong, he kept pleading “It’s me!”
Realizing who he was, my Dad laid on him harder while giving a lecture not ever to scare his wife again.

We were ten when Hez and I were sitting on the second seat from the front in church, and they were singing ‘Jesus is Calling’. I felt the Holy Spirit telling me I was lost. My brother must have felt Him too because he said, “Don’t go; there’s only one more verse.”
He had told me before, “If they don’t leave me alone, I’m not ever going to be a Christian.”

I couldn’t stop myself for I wanted to be saved. The preacher asked some questions and I replied, “Uh-huh”. He pronounced me SAVED, but I knew I wasn’t. My father prayed as I was about to be baptized, and asked me to close the prayer.
All I could say was, “Thanks for the sunshine.” I thought maybe the baptizing would save me, but I just came up wet.

Everyone was smiling and saying how happy they were for my decision, but my tears had only been for feeling sorry for myself.
They wanted me to talk to Hez but how could a hypocrite do that? The days drug by and going to sleep was the worst. I became sick with mumps and my head looked like a basketball.
Hez and I slept in the attic. One night I came down crying because I wanted to be saved. Mama asked me what was wrong and I said that my jaws hurt. The next night the same thing, and Mama said, “Oh, your jaws are hurting.”

“No Mama, I want to be saved.”
She prayed, saying all I had to do was ask Jesus to save me. She left and I did.

A peace came over me. The Holy Spirit has never told me I was lost in the last sixty-six years, and that’s my experience of having a personal relationship with Jesus.

I believe unless a person is compelled by the Holy Spirit that they are lost, they will never be saved regardless of how good they are.

When we die there is only one question that determines our destiny: When was our name written in the Book of Life? It is not written after a lifetime of good work as “All our righteousness is as filthy rags”, but when we realize we’re lost without Jesus and ask him to save us.

Rex Ray said...

I’m troubled by my own ‘cocksure’ stance of how people are saved. I can quote: “Not everyone that says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven…On that day many will say to Me, Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesied in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name? Then I will announce to them, I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers.”

But this doesn’t fit you L’s. You’re not as some TV preachers as in my opinion ‘working for the Lord for their own profit and self glorification.

While I claim ‘It’s me’ will open heaven for us, how can I argue the same cannot be done for someone as you that loves Jesus with all their heart?

Anonymous said...

Hi REX RAY, It's me, L's

What a kind thing to say. :)


In my faith, we use a different faith language when speaking of salvation. So, when you and I speak of it, it's like I speak 'en francais (in French) and you speak in English. It IS a little hard to understand each other, but I can tell you that I am NOT worried for your salvation. :)
I can not imagine the Good Lord turning you away like you were some old goat. (sorry, that didn't sound too good) What I mean is this: you CARE about others. That is THE SIGN that you love HIM with ALL your heart.
In my religion, it is very important to care for one another.
Don't ever worry. HE is with you now and HE will never leave you. :)
Build a quiet church within your soul where the Holy Spirit may come and stay with you. He will keep you peaceful and free from worry. The Holy Spirit is called the Comforter for good reason, my friend.

Be peaceful. :) L's

Rex Ray said...

L’s,
Thanks.

My twin brother and I were never more than three days apart until we were twenty-three. We were seniors at North Texas State University, and I asked him if he got enrolled. He said, “No, because I wear glasses, they wouldn’t let me in ROTC again as they only want pilots…I think I’ll go to the University of Alaska.

Four hours later, he was gone without saying anything to our parents. I felt I’d lost my right arm. The school had started two weeks earlier and it took a week to drive. He had little money but the president loaned him enough to enroll and gave him a job washing dishes. He made the all-state basketball team and became well known. Through the years, a twenty million dollar sport complex bears his name in Fairbanks.

If James missed his brother like I do, the Bible would be a foot thick. I’m afraid James’ love bordered on the love that Joseph’s brothers had for him as shown after their father died.

Since you and I are probably the only ones reading this…one more story:

Hez was talking to his seven year-old daughter who was to testify in court about the janitor dropping his pants in the girl’s restroom. She couldn’t understand why, and he didn’t want her to worry so he made light of it by saying, “Oh, he just had a loose screw.” While she kept asking, her little sister was listening around the corner. Just talking and still in diapers, she pranced into the room saying, “Diane, don’t you know nothing? When your screw gets loose, your pants fall down...happens to me all the time.”

Anonymous said...

Dear REX RAY,

It's me, L's

Wonderful story.
Kids are so great the way that they see the world: fresh and unspoiled. I'm am laughing still.
Children are protected from much harm by their innocence, as your story illustrates.
Bless you and your wonderful stories! What a gift you have been given. Thanks for sharing.

L's (still laughing :) :) :) :)