"I went to Jerusalem to become acquainted (Gk. istoria) with Cephas" - Paul's words from Galatians 1:18.

The Problem of a Predator In the Pulpit in the SBC

After watching a gut wrenching video on the predatorial behavior of a Southern Baptist pastor who seems to have been protected from disclosure and discipline by other Southern Baptists ministers, and after receiving the following email from a victim of this alleged Southern Baptist sexual predator, my interest in the child sexual abuse motion before the Southern Baptist Convention has only heightened. I am hopeful that appropriate solutions to the problem of sexual predators remaining in Southern Baptist ministry can be resolved by our national meeting this June. Tiffany Croft, in her email below, asks for suggestions. Surely the great minds of our convention can come up with an effective proposal. Yes?

Mr. Burleson,

I was given your contact info. by Bob Allen of Ethics Daily. I also just stumbled upon your blog. I was researching Dallas and SBC information and read about Joel Gregory.

My situation is that I am involved in a struggle here in Jacksonville, Florida trying to insure that a preacher here never reaches the pulpit again. His name is Darrell Gilyard. He has a 20 year history of abuse and sexual misconduct of his members wives and young women. In recent years, he has turned to young minor girls (ages 14- 16). He is facing charges currently her in Jacksonville - I was a 18 year old victim of his in 1991. There was a huge cover up back then (he was a Pastor at Victory Baptist in Dallas then) and Paige Patterson (and others) knew of his problems and did not help any of the victims back then. Long story. Now this man has been Pastoring a local church here for the last years (1993-2007) and is abusing still.

I was attacked by Patterson personally for speaking out with my story and the need to get this man out of the pulpit. He uses his power as a Pastor of a Mega church to abuse. There are more than a hundred victims in his past. The cover up by prominent Pastors and leaders is truly amazing. The State Attorneys office cannot even believe what he has been allowed to get away with.

I am not out to get anyone or to attack Patterson etc. - I just want to make sure that this man does not go unpunished and be allowed to move on to another church. No more victims.

The problem is he still has supporters within the churches, politically within our community, and then Patterson and others saying that we shouldn't be talking about it, let the church handle it. 20 years is long enough to "let them handle it". Gilyard was a "golden boy" of the SBC, Criswell, Patterson, Vines etc. when his problems were first brought to light. He continued to have their backing for the last 17 years - this gave him more power. People are disgusted that they allowed him to move on and not warn everyone.

I know that God will have His way with Gilyard, He will answer - I am just concerned for future victims. The impact he will have on their lives, and possibly their faith. He should not be allowed to continue. Many are still trying to keep it quiet. By the way each church he has been in since 1987 has left a trail of victims and he has always been forced to (quietly) leave. Why the politics of covering up horrible, damaging sin?

Any suggestions or help?

Thank you,
Tiffany Croft

Tiffany, when you and other courageous women like yourself speak out, awareness is raised of the horrible issue. I, again, promise to help you and others to the best of my ability. We will ensure that something is done on the national level.

In His Grace,



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Timothy said...

Then there's all these men:


Scotte Hodel said...

Timothy's link above is shocking: it takes about a minute simply to scroll through the many cases written there.

I tend to think in terms of quotes I've heard, so on this:

"Power should never be wielded like a club." (Babylon 5 TV show)

"I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves." (Paul in Galatians, on a somewhat different topic.)

Bob Cleveland said...

This has, indeed, been common knowledge within the SBC structure itself. I surmise they had the same reasons as the Catholic Church did for not making it public or demanding justice.

Bart Barber said...

Outrageous that someone could be such a vile predator while occupying the pulpit of a church. With Paul we say, "Remove the wicked man from among yourselves!" (1 Cor 5:13)

I'll tell you what Paige Patterson should have done. He should have refused to give Gilyard his degree from Criswell. He should have personally confronted Gilyard and told him that he had no business in the ministry. If I had been in Patterson's shoes, I personally would have moderated the business meeting to kick Gilyard out on the curb.

Ron P. said...


It is such a coincidence that you would do the EXACT same thing that Dr. Patterson DID DO to Gilyard, despite the insinuations by some who claim otherwise.


Ron P.

Anonymous said...

Touche', Bart.

Let's don't let something like the actual facts get in the way of a good story.

Tim Guthrie said...

The church in Florida was warned by many. The leaders refused to head the warning and Gilyard was pretty good at sharing how he had supposedly repented and cleaned up. He had not and should have never preached again nor should he now. The key to this is that the leaders of the church did not listen to what they were told.

Jim Paslay said...


Has this article been properly vetted and known to be factual in its entirety? Your words "who seems to have been protected from disclosure and discipline by other Southern Baptist ministers" doesn't sound very solid.

Another question, is Tiffany Croft a member of a Baptist church with CBF affiliation? Does this lady have an axe to grind with Dr. Patterson? She says she doesn't but includes him very prominently in her email to you.

I guess the final question, did this article land on you blog because of your concern for child abuse or because it mentions Dr. Patterson in a negative light?

Debbie Kaufman said...

Bart: And then I would never have told any of the victims to be quiet. In fact I would have gone through the press and into each pulpit proclaiming what this man had done. I would never sit back with all the influence that I(as Paige) has and let this man go from church to church. At least not walking while doing it. Paige Patterson did not do enough Bart and then to reprimand someone for speaking of it is wrong. Wrong wrong.

Anonymous said...

Bart and Boys,

you're leaving out the part about the recommendation to another local church in South Dallas.

David Simpson said...

Darrel Gilyard came to my church back in 1990, and preached his "life growing up under the bridge" sermon. It was one of the most powerful sermons I had ever heard- I still have it in its entirety on videotape.

I recall reading a Dallas-based newspaper article in 1991 about his affairs.

I can't imagine how he was able to convince a church to allow him to take control of their pulpit with such an obvious blight on his record. If a church can't bring themselves to do a basic background check on a potential pastor, who's fault is it?

So much of this has to be laid at the feet of the church that hires a minister, either without checking his background thoroughly, or that ignores negative references. Pulpit commitees have to realize the awesome responsibility they have to their church and community.

This doesn't apply strictly to sex offender ministers. Churches hire ministers who steal; who are lazy; and who abuse their pastoral responsibility.

How do you stop automomous churches from doing what they want?

Thanks Wade, for putting your clout behind such a controversial issue.

Anonymous said...

Here are some suggestions that I think would help:

1. The SBC could ask LifeWay to convene a conference(s) on sexual abuse in the church, produce materials on sexual abuse by those in the vocational ministry and those in volunteer ministry. The materials could be written by experts in the field, both law enforcement and psychological. This material could be made available on the web and made available for purchase or distribution to the 40,000 plus churches. The material could give advice to church members on how to report abuse to law enforcement authorities and non-profits set up for this purpose.

2. SBC Today and other executive committee materials and state papers could run articles on the subject, and promotionals could be printed on all their materials (and LifeWay materials for that matter) regarding the need and duty to tell a law enforcement official when abuse occurs.

3. The same material should help pulpit committees, elders, congregations etc. learn how to search existing data bases run by federal and state authorities and other background check information on any people who seek to be employed in the church. Our church runs a background check through a qualified agency on every person who wants to work with youth or children. Obviously, we do the same for pastoral staff and thoroughly check work references. Many churches may not know that these resources are out there.

Here is what I would recommend the SBC NOT do:

1. Start an agency in Nashville or a division within existing agencies to track and keep up with information on pastors and other church workers. Some have suggested a tracking system and/or some sort of investigatory branch of the SBC that would look into this and/or keep up with it.

That would not be a good idea. Not only is that not what the SBC or state conventions are for (they are for funneling money to missions causes), given the size (in number and geography) of our convention, I suspect there is a good chance that mistakes will be made. We will be giving people false hope if we set up some sort of agency that does or maintains background checks. We are not going to be as good as the professionals who already do this sort of thing, but we will be representing to the 16 million strong that we will be competent and good at it. That would be a horrible situation.

Also, to date, the SBC and the money sent to it for missions (I think that's $200,000,000 a year) have not been subject to liability for things like this because it's not part of their job. If the SBC takes this on, and makes a mistake, the liability could be huge - in cases of false negatives (we failed to list someone or keep them on the list) or false positives (someone got on the list who should not have been put on it).

I want every dollar that a church sends to Nashville to go to missions and related causes and not to pay civil judgments because someone made a mistake in Nashville about listing or giving the correct warning about a sexual predator. I think that most churches feel this way, too.

I have no idea how many people it would take to adquately staff an office that would be reponsible for keeping track of 40,000 churches and 16 million people, but it can't be run on a shoe string. It would take really knowledgeable people, lots of them, and really good equipment. And even then, mistakes happen.

So why not let the pros who do this be the ones that churches and others rely on, and not a denominational headquarters.

Of course, as I have said, the education curve on this may be big for some places (though not our church). So, let the education begin! We should state it loudly and often and let every church and every member of an SBC church know how important it is to deal with this issue.

But let's not, in a rush to be seen as "doing something", get so emotional that we don't make good decisions. Decisions that may make us look good to the public, but may not actually help the people we are intending to help, and decisions which may make the SBC's entire reason for being subject to liaiblity concerns that have never existed before.


Anonymous said...


You know of course, that "growing up under the bridge" story is also a lie.

CB Scott said...


I just don't think there is really anything to be coy about here.


In all seriousness; what more could Dr. Patterson have done other than what he did do at the time? He did far more than many and it seems the church refused to hear him.

He denounced Darrell Gilyard's ministry. I have a hard time seeing how so many tie him to future sins of Darrell Gilyard whom he has repeatedly rebuked for even serving as a pastor since the early years of their relationship.


Dr. Patterson did openly rebuke Gilyard. He made it known that he should not be called to pastor any church, be it SBC or otherwise.

The churches who called Darrell Gilyard did so with full knowledge of his past. It was common knowledge that Dr. Patterson tried to stop his ministry. What more could he have done?

None of this has any relation to his failure relating to Dr. Klouda.


Ron P. said...


You make the most important point of all. In the SBC, churches are completely autonomous. No ecclesiastical authority exists or will ever exist over SBC churches, nor should it! You state correctly the responsibility of each church to carefully examine who they bring into their church, whether a pastor, staff member, nursery worker, children's worker, youth worker etc. In Gilyard's case, churches specifically ignored what was known after the facts were established.

I do believe that the convention should put resources in place to assist congregations, but the convention should NEVER have any say or ecclesiastical role over autonomous churches - on ANY issue.

Ron P.

Anonymous said...

This is what happens with a Rogue SPC and Baptist Churches that don’t want to put into effect church discipline/accountability. The churches 16 Million Minions know it all and they are the only ones that will be in Heaven.

Anonymous said...


Good post.

I would add, however, that it's not only the control issue over autonomous churches.

Even if it could be argued that there was no "control" being exercised by keepin info on pastors, qualifying ministers or maintaining information on them is NOT what the denomination is about.

It has one purpose - missions.

Let's keep that as the denominational headquarters' purpose.


Ron P. said...


Agreed. You were spot on in your comments and recommendations of what the SBC should do and not do.

Ron P.

othoniel a valdes sr said...

I hope you contacted Dr.Patterson before posting this.He has spoken strongly on this issue and I would
be incline to believe his fact's and not hers as it relates to his role in this past mess.

Tom Parker said...

othoniel a valdes sr,

You say you would be inclined to believe pp instead of her? Why?

Tom Parker said...

Jim Paslay,

Does it really matter if Tiffany Croft is a member of a CBF related Church?

Debbie Kaufman said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Debbie Kaufman said...

CB: I know you know my feelings about this. There is always more that can be done. Especially someone with Paige's influence and power even back then. Always. Read this woman's email. Paige Patterson attacked this woman for speaking about it in an effort to get this man out of the pulpit. Doesn't that bother anyone?

Debbie Kaufman said...

I see the words victim and abuse in this letter as well as from the mouth of another woman who used the word victim. That sounds like sexual assault or even rape. The leaders should have called the police even twenty years ago. The letter also states that he recently went to underage children. That also adds to the reasons I believe it was not an affair as some on this comment section and another section have stated but instead crimes were committed.

Jim Paslay said...

tom parker,

To answer your question, yes, it does matter considering all propoganda that has been out there about Patterson and Pressler. They are considered the devil and the false prophet in some CBF churches. I noticed links to the CBF and she mentioned Bob Allen from Ethics Daily in her email to Wade. There is no love loss for those who feel they have been disenfranchised by the Patterson-Pressler coalition.

Mrs. Croft says she has no axe to grind, but I find it interesting that she mentions Patterson in this email along with other articles on her website. I would like to know her motivation for contacting Wade in the first place.

Tom Parker said...

Jim Paslay:

You said: "I would like to know her motivation for contacting Wade in the first place." Why not contact her and ask her.

Darby Livingston said...

This story is a little more out of the bag than some mean old CBF conspirators getting together to slam Patterson. The local news is not the CBF, and Gilyard is an open target by far more than some fringe liberals in our convention. Talk about straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.

Anonymous said...

Let me respectfully suggest to all that while Dr. P's involvement in allegedly not handling a situation well and Ms. Croft's church membership are interesting and may color motives etc., the issue before the SBC is what to do.

(I will say those CBF, New Covenant, etc. folks have a morbid interest in the SBC. You'd think that they, and WE, would move on to our respective productive ministries).

If we get too caught up in arguing "who shot John" we will be debating the wrong issue.

The SBC is being asked to essentially change its function so that it would now keep information on the qualifications and activities of ministers. It would keep a data base and perform investigatory functions. And for the first time, it would take on a role that would subject the contributions of member churches to civil judgments for negligence in maintaining the data base and doing investigations.

Let's unite around the concept that a bad idea is a bad idea, no matter who recommends it.


Debbie Kaufman said...

Watch the video. I just did.

Wade Burleson said...

To all,

Tiffany states she was personally attacked for telling her story. This is a woman who was victimized by a predator. I think we all should show more compassion to her and avoid questioning her motive, veracity and church affiliation. For what purpose would anyone in this stream even go there?


Ron P. said...


These are legitimate questions, as the allegation of being attacked goes against the very well known character and reputation of Dr. Patterson. I do not doubt what Gilyard did, as it does fit his character. However, Paige Patterson "attacking" a woman is not credible given his reputation, character and consistent pattern of behavior and belief. There does clearly appear to be an ax to grind. But, it is also clear that the ax has been in many hands.

Ron P.

CB Scott said...


I hope you know I am not part of questioning Ms. Croft's motives, church relation or anything else about her. I don't care if she is a VooDoo queen with bones in her nose drinking chicken blood. If she was assaulted it was wrong. If it was covered up that too was wrong.

My question for you Wade, or anyone is; what more could Dr. Patterson have done at the time? To say there is always more he could have done is not answer enough.

Let me ask it in this fashion; What legal action could Dr. Patterson have taken at the time that he did not take or that could not have been taken by another person or persons closer to the situation which would have far greater effect upon the situation?


Wade Burleson said...


The subject of this post from my perspective is not PP. His name comes up because he is mentioned in Tiffany's letter. You continue to ask me what he could have done differently. I cannot answer that question except from the facts given to us by Tiffany - he could have refrained from personally attacking Tiffany. That's all.

greg.w.h said...

I did a quick perusal of Tiffany's blog earlier tonight. She doesn't spend a lot of time on that site going after Paige. There are a couple of fairly regular contributors that are more vocal, specifically Christa Brown of stopbaptistpredators.org ("The voice of SNAP Baptist") and voice_of_reason who seems more interested in efforts to discredit Mac Brunson and therefore also sometimes reflects Christa's comments about Patterson and Vines.

As far as I can recall, the only references to EthicsDaily or the CBF on her site were links. It wasn't clear to me which church Tiffany was a member of, but I also saw absolutely zero content in her blog itself about SBC or CBF politics.

While sending an email to Wade might be considered suspicious by some of Wade's stalwart opponents, we probably should give Tiffany the benefit of the doubt for the contents of that letter since the email itself does not include a request for Wade to publish it. I'm sure Wade did ask permission and I'm equally sure Tiffany gave that permission without thinking about how some of the paragraphs might come across to Paige supporters (especially if handled by either Wade or Ben.)

I actually think that listening to the hurt that Tiffany experienced and her heart for real--and not vindictive--justice is helpful as we seek a way to improve how things work in the Convention.

I also think Louis's recommendations are a better start than a database, and would be necessary BEFORE any such database would be anything other than a HUGE liability to the Convention.

Since I poked Louis pretty hard on offering suggestions that an attorney might offer in a situation like this, I'd like us to get behind his recommendations first, implement them, and make an active effort to educate people on the depth of the problem. One of the key first steps is to correct the one area that Dr. Patterson felt uncomfortable about: going immediately with alleged victims to the local law enforcement authorities to seek their help in investigating potential crimes.

I've been told, for instance, that the most important step after a sexual assault is the collection of the forensic evidence. The typical response by a woman is to go into denial about the attack (echoes of Dr. Kubler-Ross's "On Death and Dying" anyone??) But the first hours are critical for establish the best DNA evidence and chain of custody.

Our pastors should be trained to act immediately to protect that information by helping women and children feel safe seeking law enforcement help. The rest will come out in the investigation and we should teach our congregations to be open minded about the outcome.

I also think that it would have been appropriate to work with Tiffany to redact her letter so that she didn't receive aim from Paige supporters on comments that she probably did not intend exactly the way they came across (at least if I were to compare her spirit in her blog with the comment in the letter.)

This isn't about the CBF or EthicsDaily. It's about bringing Godly justice to our Convention. And I don't think we should use it to attack Paige, either. It is far easier for us to see what he might have done better than it might have been for him to see at that time. We live in the full light of the post-Catholic scandal era after all.

I will say this: Christa Brown and SNAP are relentless. So dealing with the facts they are raising is the most effective way to put their view into perspective in the public square. Trying to ignore it or cover it up probably will extend the media coverage they're able to bring to the situation.

Greg Harvey

Anonymous said...

We don't want this to be about PP but this statement made me sit back and think, "WHAT?!"

"However, Paige Patterson "attacking" a woman is not credible given his reputation, character and consistent pattern of behavior and belief

CB Scott said...


If he attacked Ms. Croft he was wrong. And I have no valid reason to doubt her testimony.

Therefore, I agree with you in that context. It is due to much being said as to what he should have done beyond what he did at the time that I question.

Wade, the system is so broken that if Dr. Patterson had dragged Darrell into a police station naked and declared that he had just pulled the man off of a woman by force and the gashes on his head were from having to do so by force; chances are the only one spending the night in jail would be Dr. Patterson for charges of assault.

been there,


Emily Hunter McGowin said...

So, now I have an honest question--one that is unrelated to making denominational changes. All the legal-eagles (and all other interested parties) are welcome to reply.

If what Tim Guthrie says is true and the real problem is that the church leaders "refused to head the warning" and "did not listen to what they were told," then what is preventing these victimized women from suing the churches in question or the leaders in question? As I see it, gross negligence by the leaders of a number of non-profit organizations led to a known predator abusing more women.

(And, please, please, please don't run me through all the arguments about why Christians shouldn't sue Christians. I know them. I've heard them. I'm sympathetic. But, I'm interested in the legal issues here.)

Any thoughts?

Alan Stoddard said...

I like the post. It probably reveals a lot about abuse issues in the SBC.

Be careful in targeting Dr. Patterson. It's a double edged sword. The law on this could go against some ministers (don't have anyone in mind) and churches if their past is dug up.

Tiffany was done wrong. That's a fact. Gilyard is a ....Hey, the church was warned and now is paying the price. It's not uncommon for some churches to just "sit the pastor down" for a while. Those churches are now paying a heavy price for trying to cover up and sweep things under the rug related to abuse in the church.

We need to come down on the Pastors who abuse, and hard. 1 Tim. 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-9 give 23 non-duplicating spiritual character traits a pastor should have. Gilyard had skills, but no character. His church inverted God's process...sad.

CB Scott said...


It may take that very thing.

Of course, it will be a sad commentary on churches that financial loss is the only reason they deal with the problem.


Bob Cleveland said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bob Cleveland said...

We can gripe about the SBC not being a denomination, or a top-down authority deal, but if the local churches won't insist on Godliness, openness, all the stuff we're yelling for in the SBC, within their own church, then the SBC might as well pack it in.

But heck, the SBC can't even get the local churches to play fair with their numbers. What chance have they got with something like sexual abuse (assuming they really want to do anything about either one)?

Anonymous said...

Just reading some of these comments makes me realize why so many victims do not speak out or take so long to speak out.

Their motives are questioned by influential men.

Just seeing how Ms.Croft's plea is parsed by so many here is heart breaking. Which side should we err on? After all, the person in the pulpit/presidency really does hold the power. Why would anyone believe the victim? Victims instinctively know this and many times are told this by the abuser. It works and they know it.

It was my understanding that Patterson told one of the victims he would not listen to her unless she had 3 witnesses.


gmommy said...

Thank God for Christa Brown.

SOMEONE needs to be "relentless" in exposing the sexual predators standing in the pulpits today....some after years of preying on those most vulnerable.

You people so willing to believe PP over this victim need to burst the bubble you are hiding in and come out and defend those who deserve and need your protection.

This one email from Tiffany and the link provided are a drop in the bucket.
Seriously...where have you people been while so many have been molested and intimidated??

It's pretty easy to research....since you know how to post on this blog.

Will you try and plant doubts about Christa, Tiffany ,myself (if I had the courage these women have)
rather than feel outrage for the sin against these women and so many more!!!!
Will you come to the defense of these SBC leaders that are well aware of this criminal activity among SBC ministers and yet attack the victims who ask for their help???

The "compassion" of a so called Christian for a sisiter or brother in need is shameful.
I wouldn't have believed it myself... had I not experienced the cover up for a staff sexual predator first hand.

Why go on your mission trips if you turn your back on a wounded sister right in front of you?

I have an ax to grind with PP and those who demand a victim supply witnesses before they will listen to them.
I took the time to do the research. It is a crime what is being allowed and covered up among ministers within the SBC.
Throw your stones...I've learned to expect it.

ezekiel said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ezekiel said...

Ron P,
”These are legitimate questions, as the allegation of being attacked goes against the very well known character and reputation of Dr. Patterson. I do not doubt what Gilyard did, as it does fit his character. However, Paige Patterson "attacking" a woman is not credible given his reputation, character and consistent pattern of behavior and belief. There does clearly appear to be an ax to grind. But, it is also clear that the ax has been in many hands.”

Ron, how many victims do you think tell themselves this same thing and use it to justify not bring formal criminal charges in a court of law?

Could we (general public) make the same judgement about Gylyard, Roberts fiasco? What about that wonderful Colorado pastor kicked out for drugs and sodomy? Didn’t they all have a reputation, character and consistent pattern of behavior and belief before it hit the news?

We need to start asking ourselves who is doing more damage to the Body of Christ? The predator in the pulpit or folks that know about it and help foster the silence?

It is past time that as Christians (not Pastors, pastors, the Pew, or the Elders among us) we don’t start living up to our duty to “do justice”. You can talk about it till the cows come home but that won’t make explaining our delay in doing something about it to the victims that endure this in the mean time and it sure won’t help our defense on judgement day when we are judged for our deeds, not our good intentions.

Isaiah 1:16
Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean;
remove the evil of your deeds from before my eyes;
cease to do evil,
17 learn to do good;
seek justice,
correct oppression;
bring justice to the fatherless,
plead the widow's cause.
Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord:
though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;

though they are red like crimson,
they shall become like wool.
If you are willing and obedient,
you shall eat the good of the land;
but if you refuse and rebel,
you shall be eaten by the sword;
for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.

Micah 6:8
He has told you, O man, what is good;
and what does the Lord require of you

but to do justice, and to love kindness,
and to walk humbly with your God?

Don Smith

Anonymous said...

You all should follow this link.


greg.w.h said...


In 1 Timothy 5 (NIV) we find this passage that Paige correctly used in the situation:

17The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. 18For the Scripture says, "Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain,"[b] and "The worker deserves his wages."[c] 19Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses.

On the other hand, I also believe that a single accusation should cause leaders to be more attentive to the situation, literally examining the person to see how he behaves. I say that in part because of similar things that happened at Great Hills Baptist with two different ministers in less than ten years. (I was a member of the church and the minister of education that baptized both of my daughters was charged with attempted sexual abuse of a minor for soliciting sex from an older male teenager.)

On the other hand, I think your comment is strengthened by pointing out the necessity of the verse that follow v 19 when real problems are found:

20Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.

I'd offer that verse to you, Louis, to factor into your what I consider your very fine thought on how we do something helpful to address this situation.

I'm far more interested in us paying attention to the problem that has been raised and using it as both a case study AND a test case for changes than in trying to focus on the personalities. I would hope that Dr. Patterson wouldn't mind lending his fine name in that kind of discussion even if it causes him some amount of personal pain to have been involved at all...especially if we treat his name with respect in the discussion.

Greg Harvey

Anonymous said...

Another link, more revealing.


gmommy said...

It ocurred to me how ironic it is that fellow Christians come to the defense of a man who is known for hunting wild animals in the jungle and putting their heads on his wall to show how powerful he is.

How many innocent and wounded humans will be damaged or destroyed because we look to men more than obey God's Word?

Thank you to those who posted with sensitivity and compassion.

Anonymous said...

More Links.


Ron P. said...


I agree with you regarding justice in the situation of sexual abuse. Ministerial abuse is something that we should not to turn a blind eye to. Churches had better step up and make every effort to ensure that it does not happen. Background checks are a good start, but if a sexual predator has never been accused or convicted, a background check is meaningless. Polices and procedures need to be put in place, such as never being alone with a woman, always having two or more workers present at ALL times around children and youth, and so on. Anyone who does such despicable acts deserves much worse than what our legal system is willing to give them!

Let me address the other issue. The accusation that Dr. Patterson would "attack" a woman is just so outside the known character of the man. That is all I am saying, nothing else. If the same accusation were made that Wade attacked a woman, I would have the same response, as it would be outside his known character and reputation.

Thus the real dilemma. Whom do we believe when an accusation is made? Unfortunately, there have been multiple false charges made against pastors. Even more unfortunately, men have gotten away with predatory practices while serving in the pulpit. But what is a congregation to do? Greg has aptly pointed out that Scripture states that a church is not to entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. That Biblical standard is higher than our legal standard here in the U.S. If Dr. Patterson erred, he apparently erred following Scripture that Greg cited above.

My question to everyone here is: If in another blog, a woman published an email accusing Wade of attacking her, would you be as quick to condemn him as you have Dr. Patterson? I think not. I would be consistent and give Wade the same benefit of doubt that I am giving to Dr. Patterson.

What disturbs me, is that Dr. Patterson once again has been tried and convicted here. Yet he refused to allow Gilyard to graduate and presided over the business meeting at the church Gilyard pastored, and was fired from. His actions in moving against Gilyard, do not fit the scenario that he "attacked" a woman.

The SBC does need to address the issue of pastors and staff as sexual predators. Louis made some very sound suggestions. But it mostly needs to be addressed by each local autonomous church, as we have no controlling ecclesiastical authority. But the convention can and should find a way to assist churches in establishing policies and procedures to help prevent it. We also need to practice church discipline and quit the practice of not saying anything when pastors, staff as well as members leave a church. If they do not leave in good standing, their church letter should say so.

Ron P.

Anonymous said...

Ron P,

I think you should follow some of the Links and open your eyes. Jesus says there is Light and Darkness.

Ron said...

C.B. and others who ask what more could Patterson have done,
If you were around when the orginal Gilyard scandal broke, you might be able to answer that question. I am going by memory which I admit is not the greatest at my age. Gilyard spoke at the Arkansas Pastor's conference several years ago shortly before the story came out in the open but after Patterson had been told of the abuse and made the statement that unless it was recorded on tape he wouldn't believe it. He could have told the pastor's conference and Gilyard to hold off the speaking engagements until the truth was determined.
As I recall, many at 1st Baptist Dallas thought Patterson could have done more. Wasn't his lack of action in this case a reason the trustees at Criswell tried to fire him at the urging of Dr. Criswell? I believe Joel Gregory wrote about that in his book and some of the trustees were quoted as saying that.

Ron said...

HOw could Patterson deny Gilyard a degree? Gilyard never earned a degree. At the time Patteson said he had only taken a few classes and was not a full time student. Some of you who were students at Criswell tell us which story is true.

Bryan Riley said...

I understand in this case there has continued to be a problem, but I do wonder when grace kicks in for a man in these types of situations? I hear everyone ready to kick Gilyard and definitely have those same feelings, but when would be time to restore such a man?

Debbie Kaufman said...

Those of you who quote the verse asking for 2 or 3 witnesses should know this if you already don't. A sexual predator makes sure there are no witnesses. I just don't think you can contextually use that passage as an out.

Robert said...

Is morality part of missions?

If the SBC is a convention for the purposes of mission can it not be argued that the behavior of its public faces is integral to mission and therefore part of its mission work?

Isn't the logical outcome of some arguments on here that Southern Baptists should become independent Baptists and renounce all oversight of one another?

It seems very hypocritical to watch over one another's attitude to homosexuality as an issue of holiness and then hold up the hands for local church independence for the likes of Gilyard.

WatchingHISstory said...

We have heard homosexuals denounced from the pulpit with outrage. Bold preachers speak out boasting they will not be silenced about this awful shame. Most of these preachers know the homosexuals are on the west coast. They are courted by Hollywood and the arts. Politicians and educators support them. Fundamentalist preachers rail upon them.

However has anyone heard an angry sermon railing Paul Williams, himself an ordained SBC preacher credentialed by the flagship SBC Church, Bellevue Baptist, pastored by Adrian Rogers.

If you have heard a sermon please let me know about it. Send me a copy of it if you have one.
Has anyone named his name as a homosexual who sodomized his own young son in the same house the son's mother slept in?

Charles Page
Collierville, Tennessee

ml said...

I believe that Gilyard was recommended to the Florida church by Vines and Patterson and others were dismayed that he would continue to recommend him. I am not sure about Patterson's attack it could be true and it might not be exactly as it is reported. The bigger issue here is the overwhelmingly obvious that the SBC, whether acknowledged or not, is a good ole boys network. And it doesnt really matter which camp you are in they all operate based on recommendation. If I secure the recommendation of . . . then I am guaranteed the big, "powerful" pulpits [whatever that means]. This turns people into demigod personalities. We need to return to a sense of calling over size and a recongnition that the pastoral ministry is not a profession. Wade, what was the Joel Gregory reference all about?

Pamela said...

Sad to say this is rampant in the institutional church system. When a woman comes forward with an accusation against a leader for being a predator she is dismissed pretty much immediately in the minds of most people. They will rally to the leader and pretty much beat her to death with their words and accusations against her. This has happened time and time again over the years.

I used to be a member of the Church of God in Christ. It is the black version of the Assemblies of God. There is an overseer of churches (also a pastor) that has had accusations from over 30 women of being raped by this man. The previous head of the denomination (moved to heaven last year) and many in the leadership knew about this situation and from what has been reported not even a serious investigation has been done by them. This man is still in the pulpit, holding conferences and the like. While I grew up I saw things like this where leadership could do whatever they wanted to and no church discipline was done. The only time that I heard of any church discipline against men was if they touched the money. HOWEVER any time a woman did something, especially get pregnant out of wedlock, she was expected to go before the church, repent and apologize for bringing shame to the church. As a woman I knew I had no chance of truly being an equal part of the church. I also knew if a leader did or tried anything with me that I would not be heard. I had enough sense at 17 when I came to OK to attend college to get out of that bad neighborhood never to return. That was in 1977 and sad to say it appears that the same patterns are still there.

I'm not a feminist by any means just in case some may interpret my comments as such. HOWEVER we are equal in importance to God. It is not fair NOR does God approve of people being victimized and abused by leadership. There are different instances in the word of God where it says that God Himself scattered people away from bad leadership.

If church leaders do not deal with their predatory ways and taking advantage of the sheep I guarantee you that God Himself will. He knows what is the truth and what is not. I know good and well that not every accusation against a leader is false. The Bible says that judgment will begin with us. James says that leaders will be under tougher examination. There are godly leaders throughout the body of Christ. Those that are around situations like this need to confront it boldly and get to the bottom of them.

BTW I first heard about this story within a year after Adrian Rogers died. It was not through the SBC media but from secular news sources. These are not just church matters but legal ones where people should be punished for their crimes. Being called of God to be a preacher does not excuse illegal behavior that the Bible calls sin.

Anonymous said...


It is consistent with Baptist history (even before denominations) that the churches have a common confession of beliefs that unite them.

When churches unite in a denomination, they do so to accomplish some work together. Having a common confession as a prerequisite for membership or seating of messengers at the annual convention does not mandate that the denomination start approving or disapproving ministers or keeping a centralized data base.

I understand that you see maintaining a data base and having investigatory authority is part of "missions." By the standard you advocate, just about anything could be "missions."

I am for defining "missions" in the traditional, more limited way that has served us well for over 150 years, and one that does not actually put the missions contributions at risk. I hope we don't go down the road of an ever expanding denominational headquarters with more and more authority and a broader mission statement. But that is the question that the member churches must answer.

Emily, you ask a good question about liability. I am sure that I don't know all of the facts of the particular situation, but hypothetically speaking, if a church had information that a person in authority abused another person in the church, and they put that person back in (of left them in) a position where they could continue to abuse people, that church could be liable. If the church did not know and had no reason to know, it would be hard to bring an action against the church, unless a simple background check or search of the internet would have revealed a problem before the person was hired.

That is what has happened in the Catholic church. Priests who have been known to be abusers were moved around to other places where they abused again.

The liability in the Catholic church didn't stop at the local congregation. Because of their structure, it traveled up to the Diocese and maybe higher, resulting in some huge settlements that have almost bankrupted some Diocese.

That's why Baptists, while sympathetic to these groups that are protesting, should respond in love and concern to their requests, but also with wisdom. We should not do anything that would allow the liability to travel anywhere further than where it belongs - the person who abused and those, if any, who enabled him/her.

If anyone at our church was accused of doing something like this, we would look into it first, but we would also ENCOURAGE the abused person to go to the law enforcement authorities immediately AND to consider a civil cause of action, too. I suspect that our pastor and our elders would all heartily approve of both actions, even if it was someone on staff.

There is no excuse for allowing this sort of behavior, or covering it up after it is discovered.


gmommy said...


I apologize that I don't know how to put the link on here so that it can be clicked on. This particular page has the names and faces of many minister predators.
Try reading the survivors stories....
try dealing with the way Patterson and Vines and other ministers currently in pulpits shamed, shunned and further victimized people reaching out for help.

I participated in the bogus investigation at BBC.

IF anyone there cared about one single person harmed by the minister Steve Gaines and others covered for....don't you think they would have had 1 qualified councilor on that board???
Maybe a woman??? Possible someone that visited people in hospitals rather than the cold CEOs and outside HR and damage control people???
The warmest one was the outside HR person hired by BBC...he admitted he had no background what so ever with abuse of any kind.
None of this is a secret.
It's still about covering for the club boys.
Why isn't anyone pulling out scripture that defends the defenseless???
What difference does having a glass of wine or a private prayer language, or who baptizes matter if Baptists aren't outraged by sexual perversion and abuse in the ministry????
Wade, you know much more than your response to Tiffany indicates.

Why continue to teach the children about the good Samaritian?????

That is pretty basic for a Christian but no longer seems to be practiced by the leadership in the SBC.

greg.w.h said...


I'm quoting the verse because you and I both believe it's God's Word. As such it is relevant to how we handle these kinds of situations. I also was quoting it to point out verse 20 which is clear about public rebuke and is the very next comment.

It takes me some time to process through Scripture, and I like to start by getting the context into view so I get a feel for where the passage came from and where it's going. That particular comment by Paul is of course to a young pastor and it constitutes advice regarding of

1. The worth of elders because of their work.

2. A process for avoiding frivolous complaints against elders.


3. A call for a strong, public rebuke, presumably when the elder actually is guilty of a serious issue.

Your point that predators hide their crimes is certainly valid. The question is how best to get attention on the subject within the church. One way is to not require every single event have two to three witnesses. Another is to pay more attention when there is even a single complaint.

The third way that I mentioned in my other comment was to teach pastors to direct these kinds of cases immediately to civil authorities. The DNA is a second witness that can corroborate the woman's or child's testimony. As such it meets the biblical standard in my opinion.

My ability to move from my first comment to my second comment to this comment--noting that DNA is a witness--was completely dependent on processing information one step at a time and letting my mind and God's Spirit lead me to the next step. If I were to take a position that the biblical advice is simply inappropriate in today's world, I shortcut both the use of reason and the leadership from the Spirit that I am used to receiving as I think through things. I apologize for not being able to work more rapidly towards conclusions.

Greg Harvey

ezekiel said...

Bryan Riley,

"I understand in this case there has continued to be a problem, but I do wonder when grace kicks in for a man in these types of situations? I hear everyone ready to kick Gilyard and definitely have those same feelings, but when would be time to restore such a man?"

I guess that would all depend on what you call Grace. Right? The gentle hand, full of mercy type Grace that you seem to be talking about usually comes after repentance and forgiveness. Before that, the Grace extended usually has the form of a rod of correction that ultimately brings about the repentance. What makes you think we are at the former and not the latter? Have you seen him repent?

How much Grace do you extend to the woman involved by denying her justice? Is Grace toward Gylyard any more important than Grace toward the woman?

Pamela said...

gmommy, if you have the current version of IE you will not be able to see the embedded links even though you use the html codes. They can been seen by Mac users.

Pretty sad website. Sad it had to go to the Internet because leaders refuse to deal with mess internally. Hopefully now all church leaders will bite the bullet and deal with these sensitive issues with God's wisdom and compassion and not continue to hide wrongdoing with leaders.

Bryan Riley said...

Ezekiel, I am totally asking a question of when, not suggesting that it should or shouldn't happen. I'm asking for people to consider what the biblical ramifications are for how they speak, what they say, and how they conduct themselves toward all parties discussed here. I don't know Gilyard from Adam and had never heard of any of this prior to reading this post. I was simply trying to add to the scope of this discussion. Yes, repentance is the key, but I also know that my ability to judge true repentance is difficult. God alone can know the heart.

Please know that when I ask a question it is simply that. Not something loaded. God is no respecter of persons - he extends the same grace to all who will accept it. I was afraid to ask this question for fear of a rush to judgment about my motivations, but I realized I could not let that fear rule the purpose of the question.

WatchingHISstory said...

The perpetrator at Bellevue Baptist is Paul Williams not Steve Gaines. Steve Gaines made some mistakes in handling the crisis. He inherited a mess left to him by the previous leadership.

The focus should be on stopping Paul Williams from abusing other victims. The secondary issues are how the leadership handles the situations and they need some sympathy and not be the primary focus by victim rights advocates.

Gaines, Patterson, Vines and all others are dragged through the mud and the perps are just ignored. The perps should be dragged through the mud. Focusing on the secondary issues only ties their hands fighting the aligators rather than drain the swamp.

I am certain that Patterson wants to rid the church of these perps. He is making mistakes and there must be a more constructive way to encourage him to deal with the issue as quickly as possible.

One thing would be to stop relying so much on the advice of lawyers which would be a constructive criticism. Lawyers would be more suited to go after the perps rather than protect churches from liability.

truth, not religion said...

gmommy wrote:

"What difference does having a glass of wine or a private prayer language, or who baptizes matter if Baptists aren't outraged by sexual perversion and abuse in the ministry????"

At least to that I say AMEN!

Alone Before the Throne

RM said...

I have read and re-read all these blogs about sexual predators and most of them focus on the pastors (Steve Gaines and Paige Patterson) instead of the perps. Methinks that means an upcoming lawsuit...

If you really want to do what is right, focus on the perps. If you can't put them in jail, then sue them for all they have. A jury would surely convict if there is enough evidence.

I don't totally dismiss Patterson's and Gaines' roles in these issues. Patterson is a male chauvinist and anyone who knows him, knows that. Gaines is most likely unprepared to deal with the situation but remember, he inherited this mess from Adrian Rogers and his staff--he didn't cause it.

As far as an SBC registry, that would be a legal nightmare and probably a lot of ruined reputations because of unsubstaniated charges.

Time to calm down folks and see what is really happening. Haul the perps into jail or court and then sometime later deal with the pastors who didn't really know what to do.

ezekiel said...


6 if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. 7 For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, 8 but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. 9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it. 10 For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. 11 They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach. 12 One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own, said, Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons. 13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not devoting themselves to Jewish myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth.

It is apparent that you consider Gylyard an elder. I don't. There have been previous comments that indicate Gylyard's character or lack there of was known by many prior to his move to the current church. Are you as determined to have scripture upheld in the determination of just what an elder is as you are in having scripture upheld in the defense of an unholy elder?

Don Smith

Christa Brown said...

The Dallas Morning News reported on the Gilyard-Patterson connection. I don't know how anyone can read that article and not see how much additional hurt was heaped onto the many women who tried to report Gilyard. There were 25 women in Gilyard's first church alone. But Patterson and others "continued to promote" and recommend him. Many more were hurt as Gilyard was forced to resign from 4 churches in 4 years, before moving on to Florida. When he left the 4th church, Victory Baptist, he was allowed to confess to "adulterous relationships" - a rather minimizing description of the sort of conduct women were actually reporting. (The fact that women were reporting assaults and abuse is also confirmed by the pastoral counselor who sat in the room with Patterson one day when a group of women tried to tell about Gilyard - it's in the video link in Wade's post.)

Ezekial: You ask "...who is doing more damage...the predator in the pulpit or folks that know about it and help foster the silence?" Most survivors who attempt to report their abuse will tell you it's the latter. As Elie Wiesel said: "What hurts the victim most is not the cruelty of the oppressor, but the silence of the bystander."

Lucy: I agree with you - the comments here reveal a big part of the reason for why so many victims don't speak out. I am greatly saddened by what I see here.

Bob Cleveland: Your words do a good job of summing things up: "This has, indeed, been common knowledge within the SBC structure itself. I surmise they had the same reasons as the Catholic Church did for not making it public or demanding justice."

Links to many more Baptist abuse stories here.

ezekiel said...

Bryan Riley,

If you want to talk about it on truly biblical terms then you will know that his restoration can only be to the Body, not his former position of Elder. While you may be uncomfortable judging his repentance someone or several someones must in order for it to happen. (Those Deacons have a tough job).

We get into these messes because we don't follow the Word or we pick and chose what we want to follow.

My response to Greg is a good example. If we deal with Gylyard based on the Word, he would have been judged and thrown out of the church. (The first one).

1 Cor 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13 God judges those outside. Purge the evil person from among you.The rebuke would have been public enough to prevent him from working in another church as elder. Ever.

If Gylyard had truly been a man of God, he would have realized that he had disqualified himself and left the ministry to begin with. I don't see any repentance in his continued pursuit of work as an elder. So what we see in his repeated "callings" to be the "elder" at several churches is repeated violations of scriptural demands and qualifications by "people of the book". On pulpit committees, deacon boards and even the congregation that votes him in.

Come on folks, turning a blind eye to sin in the camp and calling it under the blood, covered by grace and refusing to act on it got Israel exactly where they are today. Broken off and scattered.

Dons Smith

greg.w.h said...

Don Smith (ezekiel):

I absolutely am. I also have zero interest in protecting Gilyard and to the extent that justice can be provided in any way, I would hope we would join seek it.

My strategy isn't even to protect Paige as much as to try and be somewhat deliberate in examining what he said and in thinking through how any of us might have responded in the situation in that time.

Just as I added both the context around 1 Timothy 5:19 and the public rebuke of v20 to that deliberate examination, I appreciate you bringing up the passage you're referring to. I think all of this is relevant.

There is a need to investigate these kinds of things. I had offered prayer on an SBCOutpost comment requesting reform for the SBC and for some kind of independent judicial function in part to address things like this. Louis argued very persuasively that the SBC should not take on those kinds of responsibilities which, necessarily, means an immediate referral to law enforcement personnel.

The real question I'm raising is: how do we reconcile that process with Scripture. One way is to consider the collection of DNA evidence by professional forensics specialists as listening to the voice of an additional witness.

If you've already thought through all of this and have a better proposal for how we handle it, I'm all ears.

Greg Harvey

Ashley said...

Those were my thoughts exactly. More victims do not come forward for fear of being victimized again by those who would call them liars/question their motives. I would also agree with Debbie; abusers tend to make sure there are no witnesses around when they commit the abuse. I am appalled at the direction so many have taken with their comments on this post.

Anonymous said...


You point is valid, as crimminals do try and get around the law as well. Crimminal pastors use the bible to try and hide too, look at Swagert Baker and others, but it does not make the bible invalid.

If a person in your church made a similar accuasation against pastor Wade that is being made against Patterson, and there was no other witnesses, what is yoru church's policy? Would you believe the person, since you know your pastor?

Rev. said...

I remember hearing Darrel Gilyard preach in the 80s, then hearing about his "fall" in 1991 when he was in the Dallas area. Unfortunately, his ministerial credentials were not stripped and he moved East and started up again. There were problems both with sexual immorality and dishonesty about his upbringing. This man is not a godly man, to say the least.

I've been praying for these poor girls this morning. May we pray for them, and pray that this man never enters the pulpit again.

Bryan Riley said...

It is a horrifying reality that these things occur and the men and women who perpetrate spiritual, physical and sexual abuse must be exposed. I agree wholeheartedly. I hope my comments aren't misunderstood.

I pray that all deeds of darkness are exposed to the light, and I pray that as sins are exposed that those who are exposed are given the opportunity for repentance and forgiveness. I pray that those who have been abused are given the grace to forgive. And I pray that God will be glorified.

There are no aspects of this that are easy or neat.

Such matters cannot be resolved without repentance by the perpetrators. Neither can they be resolved without forgiveness by the victims.

Deborah said...

I was involved in a church in the Mid-Cities area that had a youth minister which had molested several youth boys. Forgiveness was given....for a few more years until it came out again that it was still going on.

He left and went to a church in another state. That church was TOLD, but hired him anyway because he was a gifted music leader as well.

Even though I wasn't personally abused, I still wake up nights concerned for the young men that I had invited to church that SUDDENLY stopped coming and one of those young men went back to using drugs. It has haunted me for years. I literally for about 6 years could not hardly attend any church without a knot in my stomach.

The Lord was gracious to me and I was able to get over that. But I still wonder what happened to the young men.

By the way, the minister was later let go from the other church & he and his wife divorced. I don't think he was cured that time either.

What devastation was reaped on that church & youth group. Honestly, I was more angry at the pastor, youth & members who allowed it to continue than I was at the abuser. He was a sick person. But the people who allowed it to continue HAD NO EXCUSE!!!

I see no reason why the SBC cannot keep records of licensing & ordinations....and revocations of the same. Why we allowed sick perversions to continue from church to church is a defilement!!

I'm for it. We shouldn't wait for the government/courts to step in and force such a system. We should do it ourselves.

Just my 2 cents for what it is worth.

WatchingHISstory said...

People in Memphis need to heed what Deborah is saying. A leopard doesn't change his spots.

Anonymous said...

"In 1 Timothy 5 (NIV) we find this passage that Paige correctly used in the situation:

17The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. 18For the Scripture says, "Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain,"[b] and "The worker deserves his wages."[c] 19Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses."

Wow. So if a man is an elder he can get by with it longer than say...a nobody in the Body without a title.

Let's see...the victim may even be his own child like at BBC... so tell me...where is this kid supposed to get witnesses? Where is the victim to get witnesses? We see by this comment thread how the victim is treated!

Wow, you guys have it made. What wonderful protections our Lord has put in place for elders who happen to also be molesters.

I mean, that is what you are really saying here. That it is MORE important to protect a elder against a possible false accusation than it is to protect a possible nobody victim who has been scarred for life and has major trouble coming forward in the first place..

The big important man with a title is more important than a girl or a kid. (Yes, I do believe that is what SBC is now teaching anyway...women are equal yet inferior! ha)

I notice you have ignored teaching on the 'least of these'. I guess eldes trump them in the caste system of SBC Biblical interpretations.

No wonder churches have had so many incidents of this! It is a great place to be a molester!


Debbie Kaufman said...

Bryan: Forgiveness from the victims takes time if it ever does happen. Their world has been shattered. I mention frequently that this type of crime literally changes who the victim is. There world is never the same again. God can grant supernaturally the victim to be able to forgive, but it rarely happens right away and sometimes never happens. The scars are always there. The one who has been the victim also has to deal with comments such as have been put here. That adds an added form of abuse to this scenario.

We are human Bryan, and when such a horrible crime as this is done, forgiveness is the last thing that the victim is able to do nor in my opinion should be expected to do. By requiring such we are adding another burden to the victims already battered soul.

Bryan Riley said...

Debbie, I hear you, and perhaps it truly was unwise for me to add this to this particular conversation, but I hope to encourage the Body of Christ to seek reconcilation and forgiveness at every avenue and to remember that forgiveness is never a burden; in fact, it is the releasing of a burden. Victims find that their burdens aer lightened as they can experience the grace of forgiveness.

You are correct to say it is difficult when the person is still shattered by what has been so terribly inflicted, and, yes, it is even impossible. That is why we can rejoice in the Father because He can and will supernaturally give even the most inflicted of victims the grace to forgive - in the way that Corrie Ten Boom forgave. In the way that Jesus forgave those who crucified Him. He set the example.

I truly am sorry to those who took my words as being "soft" on perpetrators of sexual crime and abuse. I would ask that you forgive me. I definitely agree with the sentiment that such sin must be cried out against and justice must be sought. I also pray that by God's grace none of us will go down the road of sexual sin that has been paved by men as discussed here.

Anonymous said...

" Forgiveness from the victims takes time if it ever does happen. Their world has been shattered. I mention frequently that this type of crime literally changes who the victim is."

Let us not forget that when this happens at home or at church...it has been done by someone whose job it is to protect and love. Trust has been trampled on forever. It is a double crime in that respect. Let us never confuse forgiveness with repentance, fellowship or reconcilliation.

Many times it is the church that needs to forgive the victim for merely speaking out!

It is amazing how little thought is given to how this affects the victim for life. I fear it may take this happening to some people before they can comprehend its wide effects on the victim.

It is also very sad that the victims most often find more protection, justice and compassion from the secular world than they do from the Bride of Christ.


Pamela said...

I do not know how many people that are reading this have been victims of abuse. I have a very close relative that was a victim of physical abuse all through her childhood. Severe beatings, locked in her room for days with no food, etc. How she survived I will never know. Her siblings participated in this scenario. I'm not sure if the issue was that they were afraid. She married because her boyfriend after a pretty quick courtship to rescue her from her family. That couple ended up being my parents my parents. They were not believers at the time they married. My mother became a Christian when I was five years old. My father became a Christian when I was thirteen. I'm 48 years old today. She was reared Baptist but never truly came to Christ. She thought she was saved until she truly heard the gospel message and saw her need for a savior. When she became a Christian she was a part of a church where she experience ppl, etc. The persecution from her family continued for many years. She was basically shunned for her belief and experience of speaking in tongues.

When I was younger I wondered how as a Christian that she could not release her family. The older I got I realized just how much emotional scarring abuse has on a person. They moved here in Tulsa where I currently live. Through some scheming that I did and a lot of talking my Mom has finally been able to reconcile. The past few years she has said time and time again that the Lord has allowed her to live her last years as happy ones. She at times is still horrible shy around people but at least a lot of the pain is gone.

Forgiveness and releasing that kind of pain is possible but can take many years. It is not just a decision. It takes a lot of prayer and crying out to the Lord for help. I have watched this process with my Mom. She would constantly ask the Lord to help her forgive different family members over the years. Now when others do her wrong instead of lashing out she is able to go to the Lord and ask for help to not hold anything against those that do her wrong.

It is bad enough when a person is violated within their own family because there is a good possibility that the abuser is not a new creature in Christ. However when the abuse is committed by a person saying they are a new creature in Christ, especially those in church leadership that are supposed to be our examples, it is way more aggregious to me and most people. God did not allow this mess for a teaching lesson. We allow it when we know or suspect something is going on but do nothing.

I humbly feel that Bryan Riley meant no harm at all. The Bible does say that we are to forgive. Those teachings mean a lot more to me watching my Mom go through this process. Emotional scars are real, especially when horrible events happen as a young child.

Debbie Kaufman said...

Bryan, Pamela: Bryan's comments were not what I was referring to when I mentioned the comments here. Just to clarify.

Pamela said...

Cool, Debbie. There are so many comments out here. May the Lord intervene in these situations.

Anonymous said...

"I humbly feel that Bryan Riley meant no harm at all. The Bible does say that we are to forgive."

I agree. And I agree about Bryan. He seems like one of the good guys with true compassion and love.

What concerns me is how we view forgiveness. We must define it clearly.

The victim must forgive the abuser but that has NOTHING to do with the abuser's repentance nor does it have anything to do with fellowship or reconcilliation.

Forgiveness from the victim does not change the abusers eternal status without true repentance. And forgiveness does not mean you have fellowship with the abuser.

You can forgive and pray for the abuser at a distance. We are not to be unequally yoked, either.


Pamela said...

Cool, Debbie. There are so many comments out here. May the Lord intervene in these situations.

Pamela said...

Cool, Debbie. So many people have commented on this blog today.

My Mom worked through this with no acknowledgement from the abuser. That person died almost 30 years ago. Only God knows if there was even repentance. No apology from that person whatsoever.

May the Lord intervene in these horrible situations through the intervention of the godly.

Anonymous said...

"The DNA is a second witness that can corroborate the woman's or child's testimony. As such it meets the biblical standard in my opinion."

No offense, Greg, but there are lots of abuse situations that do not produce DNA. By the time it produces DNA, it usually has gone on for a while and the abuser has gotten bolder.

The real question is why do we assume that because someone has the title of elder they really are a 'biblical' elder. What does one look like? What does a Christian look like?

We can start with the Beatitudes. Those are the characteristics (or salt elements) of a Christian. Funny, but these characteristics look nothing like what we tend think an elder looks like in this day and time.

Poor in spirit? Mourn? Humble?

See, we have no idea what a real Christian looks like anymore. An elder should have these characterisitcs in abundance. Thay are to be the spiritually mature. Not great speakers. Not Charismatic. Not protected. But open and transparent. The 'elders' in scripture were not 'influential' in an earthly sense. They had NO power except for the Holy Spirit upon them.

We cannot use your scripture about the three witnesses because most often we are not talking about REAL biblical elders. We are talking about man made ones.


Rex Ray said...

I’ve noticed the ones that defended Patterson and other leaders for their part, have stopped commenting. Maybe they’ve realized the harm done later could have been avoided if leaders had a heart for victims instead of protecting the imagine of Baptists and their own interest.

What are Baptists becoming?

Today’s Dallas Morning News, reported Broadway Baptist Church was upset for their photo directory not having family pictures but went to ‘group’ pictures to compromise ‘gays’ wanting ‘couples’ to have pictures made together. The idea was the pastor’s, and he survived a vote of 499 for not getting fired and 237 for firing him.

Also, in the same paper: “New York — In a major shift, a group of Southern Baptist leaders said their denomination has been ‘too timid’ on environmental issues and has a biblical duty to stop global warming. The declaration…was released today. No one speaks on behalf of all Southern Baptist, who leave decision-making to local churches. Yet, signatories of today’s resolution represent some of the top figures in the convention. Among them is the denomination’s president, Frank Page…two former presidents, James Merritt… Jack Graham,…and Ronnie Floyd…who helped conservatives solidify control of the denomination in the 1970s and 1980’s.”

MY, MY, does the SBC not have any more important business of the Lord’s to do? We just about had a record for snow this year.

I believe the group above would do much better working on the suggestion of Lewis

Anonymous said...

"If you really want to do what is right, focus on the perps. If you can't put them in jail, then sue them for all they have. A jury would surely convict if there is enough evidence."

rm, obviously you do not know what transpired. The victim in the case of BBC was the son of the abuser. He had his mom to think of, too. However, he mustered up the courage to tell Gaines and ask that his father be excused from ministry.

The abuser said 'sorry' so Gaines allowed him to continue on as a minister on staff until it became public knowledge. It became public knowledge about 6 mos later. The outcry forced Gaines for fire him. But in the meantime this pervert had control over interviewing those who would work in childcare and who had been abused. Files were kept on them. No file on the abuser who raped his son. He was even given severence pay!

Then when it was found out, Gaines excused himself saying it was 'unchartered waters' and the minister/abuser said, 'sorry'. So, Gaines thought that apology to him was enough and even said when it became public that 1 Tim were only 'guidelines' for an elder. Raping your son is ok if you say sorry to your boss.

Now, you can blame the victim for not pressing charges against his dad if you want but I cannot imagine the nightmare he lived through. He would have to ruin his mother's life, too. All he wanted was his dad out of the ministry., But to Gaines, this was too much to ask.

So, I guess in this scenerio, Gaines who is supposed to be the big leader, man of God, is totally innocent and a man who upholds the Word.

Tim Rogers said...

Brother Timothy,

It looks like you may be in for a law suit if the right person were to get the contents of the link that you have provided. I do not know who it is that is responsible for that web link, you or the owner of this blog, but you need to know a serious misrepresentation is in this thing.

It seems that Brother Wiley Drakes charges of housing homeless people in his church is included in this listing that you have given for sexual predators. Are you, or the owner of this blog inferring by this posting that Wiley Drake accused of being a sexual predator? I would not think so, but that is what it seems by having his name in the listing.

Thought I would let you know so that you could correct this.


B Nettles said...

Deborah said: ...because he was a gifted music leader as well....

Whether it is RC, COGIC, AG, SBC or CBF, if people don't stop looking at the public "golden mouthpiece" and start looking at the long term fruit, churches will continue to have problems with unqualified leadership.

When people in the pew or in charge of the pocketbook value entertainment, a "great public speaker," and someone who "fills the pews," churches will continue to suffer with criminals creeping into the staff.

When respected leaders continue to insist that a "dynamic preacher" always has a place in shepherding the flock and just needs rehabilitation, the predators will slip from town to town, confident that they can always move on.

Church: STOP LOOKING FOR THE DYNAMIC PREACHER! Look for the humble man who honors the Word of God in all his speech, his spirit, his fruit, AND his repentence.

Pamela said...

B Nettles, that sounds really good. BUT until the love of money and prestige is purged from the leaders AND the people are mature enough to study the word and pray for themselves they will not accept slick preachers with a personality. The people will demand it. Way too many leaders will do what is financially expedient. This is what we are dealing with when leaders hide predators, especially high profile ones. They know that if they are integrous they WILL lose members and more importantly to many of them, precious money. That is why victims are persecuted when they come forward. They are threatening the pocketbook. God and his purposes go out the window.

Pamela said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Wayne Smith said...

I say AMEN AMEN AMEN to what
Anonymous said...
"I humbly feel that Bryan Riley meant no harm at all. The Bible does say that we are to forgive."

I agree. And I agree about Bryan. He seems like one of the good guys with true compassion and love.

Bryan Riley is what all of us who profess to be Christian should hold to.
Bryan shows the Love of Jesus Christ in all of His Commentand has for orver 2 years.

In His Name

Wade Burleson said...

Tim Rogers,

People can read for themselves.

The only thing Wiley is guilty of is housing the homeless.

Please do not call me again or threaten a lawsuit.



Wade Burleson said...


I apologize if I misunderstood your comment to Timothy it looks like you may be in for a lawsuit.

Thanks for clarifying that it was not you who were advocating such a thing. Also, thanks for rereading my comment.

Doug said...

Looks like it is going to take a massive suit and settlement to get the SBC and other Baptist groups to deal with the problem in an honest and open way, just as it did with the Catholic church.

Bart Barber said...


The question you raise about the SBC keeping a record of licenses and ordinations provides a perfect opportunity to help people understand a little more about the way our churches work.

The SBC can't keep a record of licenses and ordinations because (a) it doesn't perform ordinations or grant licenses, (b) it is not notified about ordinations or the granting of licenses, and (c) it has no possible way to compel churches to notify it regarding ordinations or licenses.

The little bit of record keeping that the SBC tries to accomplish is accomplished poorly. People all over the nation have decried the membership reporting from churches (and there's not a thing that the SBC can do about that beyond saying that it doesn't like it). A great many churches don't respond to the annual questionnaire at all. For Pete's sake, Ben Cole didn't send in an ACP when he was a pastor in Texas!

What's more, churches are free to call pastors who have never been ordained or licensed. Charles Spurgeon was never ordained. Churches may call pastors who were ordained outside the SBC. There are a lot of independent Baptist churches out there as well as other Baptist groups. And I don't doubt that some of our brethren would accept ordination from virtually anybody. I think that pastors ought to be ordained, but my thinking it doesn't give me the slightest bit of power of make it so.

So, if you were going to try to curb the problem of predatory preachers through some list of ordained and licensed people, you would need to find a way to compel every member church of the SBC to submit an accurate record of ordinations and licenses, as well as to notify the denomination of any unordained and unlicensed people serving in pastoral positions. Oh yeah, and you'd need to make sure that they notify the denomination of people who move into SBC life from other places.

The SBC could just as easily maintain an authoritative database of the ordinands of all churches of every denomination. A Southern Baptist congregation has no more enforceable obligation hanging over it to report its activity to the SBC than does the nondenominational church across the street.

Bart Barber said...


Such lawsuits get dismissed every time. Why? Read what I wrote to Deborah. And realize that these are not rights GRANTED by the SBC to these churches. Each church is independent and has these rights simply by virtue of the fact that they own their own property, call their own leaders, establish their own constitutions and bylaws, and set their own policies.

Why not sue the SBC for failing to stop predatory actions in non-SBC churches? It makes just as much sense.

Bart Barber said...

Our church uses AWANA curriculum on Wednesday nights. Why not sue AWANA for predatory behavior in churches that use AWANA?

Our church is a member of the Farmersville Ministerial Alliance. Why not sue local ministerial alliances for predatory behavior in member churches?

Predatory behavior takes place in churches that are member of the World Council of Churches. Why not sue the WCC for predatory behavior in their churches?

Because, although each of these entities is related to churches, none of them have any authority over decisions made by churches that are at all relevant to this question. Neither does the SBC

Anonymous said...

" Each church is independent and has these rights simply by virtue of the fact that they own their own property, call their own leaders, establish their own constitutions and bylaws, and set their own policies."

Ok. Can't the convention make it clear they do not want churches in our convention that protect or harbor pedophiles or sexual abusers and send them merrily on their way to other churches?

We don't want their CP money because they are not really churches at all.

But then, we would have to include such churches as BBC and First Baptist Atlanta and that just would not do. (FBA refused to tell it's congregation about a sexual predator who was on staff)

It always comes down to money and position.


Debbie Kaufman said...

I'm putting the Bible down and speaking from the heart here. The chips will fall where they may.

The church for years has not been the haven or healing place for abused women in the past, telling them they need to be better, nor for sexual victims past present or future, hinting that the victim seduced the attacker. As harsh as this may sound, my sympathies or concern is not for the abuser but for those who have been abused. The church in my opinion needs to begin to heal the wounds of the victims and the perpetrator needs to be punished to the full extent of the law, no restoration in the pulpit. None. That is the only way a victim is going to heal. They need to know there is a place that they can go and not be victimized over and over again and that would include by the church, the ones who should be the first to run to the victim's aid without all the excuses why they won't or can't. The perpetrator should be told that he will be prosecuted and the church will stand by the victim, prosecuting him as harsh as the law will allow. It's time to begin to think about people's lives and not what is politically correct in the name of religion. After this is done then attention could be paid to the abuser on forgiveness or help. But I believe the above must be done first.

ezekiel said...

Greg Harvey,


We are instructed by Paul in 1 Cor 10 to:

8 We must not indulge in sexual immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day. See also ( Nu 25:1-9, Ps 106:29, Re 2:14)

So I consider this a sin that apparently is to be taken pretty seriously, not that any others aren’t.

But frankly you sound a lot like a legalist pharisee. One that would condemn Phinehas for violating “thou shalt not kill” when he ran a spear through the sexual immoral in Numbers 25:7-8. A legalist would tell us that that violated the 10 commandments. What the legalist would fail to tell us is that this act was consistent with the teaching we see in Numbers 15

29 You shall have one law for him who does anything unintentionally, for him who is native among the people of Israel and for the stranger who sojourns among them. 30 But the person who does anything with a high hand, whether he is native or a sojourner, reviles the Lord, and that person shall be cut off from among his people. 31 Because he has despised the word of the Lord and has broken his commandment, that person shall be utterly cut off; his iniquity shall be on him. 32 While the people of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation. 34 They put him in custody, because it had not been made clear what should be done to him. 35 And the Lord said to Moses, The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.
So when we take this example (1 Cor 10:11) back to the NT, we have Paul telling us to “purge the evil one from among us” I would look at the two scriptures, determine if any witnesses were available and....pick up my spear.

You can rest assured that if this happened to one of my kids or my wife it would be addressed one way or the other. The first option being Matt 18. I would tell it to the “brother” first and ask for him to do the right thing. Turn himself in and resign his position. If he didn’t, I would take it to the church.
In todays world of megas and security details, the first might not be an option. However, after the phone call to the police, I would then call the local media and scream it from the roof top if needed. I would take it to the church.

In other words, when following scripture that tells us to not entertain an accusation against an elder without witnesses causes me to violate scripture that tells me to purge the evil one from among us, I am going to carefully weigh the requirement as Christians that we do Justice. Then do Justice.
Sitting around wringing our hands and letting “elders” that aren’t elders hide behind a verse of scripture is a decidedly unchristian thing to do.

Bart Barber said...


Call the SBC Executive Committee in Nashville. There you'll learn that the SBC does not keep a list of member churches. Not long ago a controversy erupted in Southern Baptist life over a group of Southern Baptist pastors who went onto national television to implore and pray for Southern Baptist pastors to all start speaking in tongues. Great and indefinite discussion sprung forth over whether Steve Camp's congregation was or was not still Southern Baptist. They do not consider themselves such, but there were still references to them on various denominational websites. The SBC does not keep a list that says, "These are the member churches of the SBC."

A decade or so ago, the SBC amended its constitution to make it clear that churches affirming homosexuality were not in friendly cooperation with the SBC. Yet Broadway Baptist Church in Fort Worth, TX, remains nominally an SBC church although it is patently in violation of Article III of the convention. So long as they do not attempt to send messengers to the annual meeting, it is not entirely clear how one would go about removing them.

Again, this all arises out of misconceptions about how the SBC works. People may feel a great deal of informal denominational connection with the SBC, but ultimately the organizational and legal status of the SBC makes it more like a vendor with which your church does business than anything else. It certainly is in no way any sort of a "parent" organization.

ezekiel said...


Ephesians doesn't mention the requirement for witnesses either. But it does include a pretty good promise.

5 1 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. 3 But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. 4 Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. 5 For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not associate with them; 8 for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), 10 and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord. 11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret. 13 But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible, 14 for anything that becomes visible is light. Therefore it says,
Awake, O sleeper,

and arise from the dead,

and Christ will shine on you.

Lin said...

"You can rest assured that if this happened to one of my kids or my wife it would be addressed one way or the other."

Ironically, because of your protective stance, your wife or kids would probably not qualify as victims to most predators.

I had the dubious dishonor about 18 years ago to have to interview quite a few sexual predators in prison for an educational campaign one of our clients hired us to develop.

The one thing that stuck out was how they chose their victims. they always chose the most vulnerable who would be unlikely to be believed and had fewer protections.

That is what makes the reactions here so insidious. We are most often talking about the least protected in our society who are trusting in authority figures and at church...a supposed godly figure. The predator knows how to build a relationship and how to both frighten the victim and convince them that no one would believe them. And it seems by the comments here...it really does work. We are more concerned with a false accusation and protecting the SBC than we are for the least protected in our churches.

Also, the other thing that amazed me is that all of them had muliple victims before caught. It made me wonder how many never get caught.

These convicted predators were not derelicts hanging about under an overpass, they were professionals and skilled workers going about everyday life living a double life as a predator looking for the easist targets.

In reality, our SBC churches ought to be the safest place in the world for the most unprotected in our society.

But many aren't. Many are safe places for the predator...even in ministry positions.

What does it tell us when many teachers, principals, etc., must step down when an 'accusation' is launched for the period of investigation? Even many police officers must do this. But pastors, ministers, etc., do not.

If we communicated upfront upon hiring any pastor or staffer that an accusation is very serious and will not only be reported externally but investigated internally...even if it is old news...it would go a long way toward dealing with this. (I am thinking of pastors of mega churches who have tried to hide this from the congregation)

Predators would know that ministry is not a safe place for them to hide and it will not be covered up as they go from church to church.

So many are so afraid of false accusations but that does not have to be. Billy Graham spoke to this in one of his books. He never allowed himself to be put in a position to be accused of such a thing.

Lin said...

"The SBC does not keep a list that says, "These are the member churches of the SBC."

Bart, How do they know where the
CP money comes from and how much churches give?

Does the state association have this information?

Just curious...

WatchingHISstory said...

We have heard homosexuals denounced from the pulpit with outrage. Bold preachers speak out boasting they will not be silenced about this awful shame. Most of these preachers know the homosexuals are on the west coast. They are courted by Hollywood and the arts. Politicians and educators support them. Fundamentalist preachers rail upon them.

However has anyone heard an angry sermon railing Paul Williams, himself an ordained SBC preacher credentialed by the flagship SBC Church, Bellevue Baptist, pastored by Adrian Rogers.

Lin said...

People may feel a great deal of informal denominational connection with the SBC, but ultimately the organizational and legal status of the SBC makes it more like a vendor with which your church does business than anything else. It certainly is in no way any sort of a "parent" organization.

10 March, 2008

I am also curious how we can have certain people 'speaking for us' on a national level to the media if this is so. I would never allow a 'vendor' to speak for my organization.

It seems we have 'distance' when it is convenient but then we are one huge voting block when it suits or we are represented en mass on Larry King. Strange.

WatchingHISstory said...

I'm sure some pastor has railed on Steve Gaines as a power broker who mishandled the Paul Williams crisis but has a pastor railed on Paul Williams for his homosexual sodomy of his own son?

Or is it different if he is a SBC minister?

Anonymous said...

IS PP A Pastor or would he Qualify???

Micah 3:1-12
Her leaders judge for a bribe, her priests teach for a price, and her prophets tell fortunes for money. Yet they lean upon the LORD and say, “Is not the LORD among us? No disaster will come upon us.” (Micah 3:11, NIV)

Pastors should be committed to their ministry. Micah remained true to his calling and proclaimed God’s words. In contrast, the false
prophets’ messages were geared to the favors they received. Not all those who claim to have messages from God really do. Micah
prophesied that one day the false prophets would be shamed by their actions.
Pastors must stand up for what is right. Micah warned the leaders,
priests, and prophets of his day to avoid bribes. Pastors today accept
bribes when they allow those who contribute much to control the church. When fear of losing money or members influences pastors to remain silent instead of speaking up for what is right, their churches are in danger. We should remember that Judah was finally destroyed
because of the behavior of its religious leaders. A similar warning must be directed at those who have money—never use your resources to influence or manipulate God’s ministers—that is bribery.

Bart Barber said...


Yes, they know which churches contribute money through the SBC. Not all of those churches are members of the SBC, and not all SBC churches contribute. Once I pastored a family who had been members of a nondenominational church in Colorado. That church contributed to the SBC World Hunger Offering simply because the SBC forwards 100% of the money for actual food. They were not a Southern Baptist church. Likewise, I once briefly pastored I church that I was trying to get to contribute through CP that formerly hadn't done so at all.

Thus, the list of churches contributing through the CP in a given year is not the same as a list of member churches of the SBC.

The rationale of Baptist life is that the local associations OUGHT to be the level at which this kind of gatekeeping is accomplished. If SNAP believes that a particular congregation is culpable, they ought to go to work at the associational level to get the church disfellowshipped there. Associations do keep a list of member churches. Of course, working with all of those associations is going to be hard work.

Finally, as to the "national spokesperson" thing, any vendor to your church would be more than within his rights to speak to the nation about the company for which he works. If a person appears on behalf of the Southern Baptist Convention and speaks in accordance with resolutions we have voted on, etc., he is not in any way speaking for your particular local church. That's the right of your church. The fact that Larry King doesn't care what your church thinks...well, that's not my fault. :-)

volfan007 said...

what about the men who are falsely accused? and, i've known some. one is a good friend of mine. he caught one of his youth having sex with his girlfriend, and the young man...apparently, in order to deflect the insueing wrath of his parents....and, maybe to "get" the guy who was about to tell on him... falsely accused my friend of molestation. my friend was arrested. his picture was plastered on local tv and newspapers...he still faces a court time, when he could actually go to jail...not to mention all the money he has had to spend on lawyers. his ministry has been damaged...probably for the rest of his life.

also, i know of some women who are vindicative enough to accuse men of rape just to "get back" at that pastor who made them mad.

and, accusations of rape or molestation are easy ways for people to "get" that person that they are mad at. and, sadly, some people do use this accusation as a way to do their dirty deed.

thus, i believe before we go on a witch hunt, we need to make sure that people are truly guilty. we need to have safeguards for those who are falsely accused. i, for one, would have a hard time throwing someone in jail, as a juror, on a "he said, she said" type of thing.

now, let me say, before some emotional people jump on me for my statements above...if the man is guilty...then, yes. he should be "got!" he deserves what he gets.

all i'm saying is that we'd better make sure that a man is guilty before we put the big, scarlet letter on him. otherwise, we could be destroying a good man, like my friend.


Lin said...

"If a person appears on behalf of the Southern Baptist Convention and speaks in accordance with resolutions we have voted on, etc., he is not in any way speaking for your particular local church. That's the right of your church. The fact that Larry King doesn't care what your church thinks...well, that's not my fault. :-)"

If only they would stick strictly to resolutions! That would be wonderful.

I don't care what Larry thinks but it does bother me that the audience thinks the guest may speak on behalf of all Southern Baptists. I am not much interested in the secular world viewing me or my denomination as 'culture warriors'. I would prefer to be known for the Gospel...only... and not how many kids a couple has or does not have. :o)

Lin said...

"all i'm saying is that we'd better make sure that a man is guilty before we put the big, scarlet letter on him. otherwise, we could be destroying a good man, like my friend."

David, we don't know all the particulars of your friends situation but it does seem strange that he could be accused just because he caught them. AFter all, you said they were having sex. If he called the police, the DNA ought could be used in this case to get him off easily and restore his reputation.

The biggest problem in the world of sexual predators is getting the victim to first of all, speak out and secondly to press charges. This is why so many pedophiles get away with it for years and years.

But you have made it known you would believe the victim less and we see this quite a bit.

Most victims are very reluctant to speak out...that is your first clue. We really do err on the side of the predator which only perpetuates the crimes.

volfan007 said...


i'm sure that many innocent people accused of sexual crimes would be thankful that people like you are not on the jury. your vision seems to be very blurred...as do others in this comment stream.

btw, my friend...whom i've known for 30 years...has never been accused of such a thing before. i know this man very, very well. i have never seen him do anything that would even hint at sexual perversion. he is innocent.

lin, maybe you dont know people very well, but there are some mean, onery folks out there who could care less about things like ethics, or playing fair, or justice, or telling the truth, or even destroying someones life. they are out there. take off your rose colored glasses and understand that some women will use this accusation to "get" that man that they are mad at...like some men use a punch in the nose to "get" the man that they're mad at. i've seen it in action. i've seen the news reports of men who've spent years in prison for rapes that they did not commit. haven't you?

now, if it can be proven...by facts...that a man committed sexual crimes, then they ought to have the book thrown at them. yes. but, let's not turn into that little village called salem with the girls accusing everyone they didnt like of being witches.


volfan007 said...


btw, my friend did not call the police on these youths. some people just report things like that to the parents....to let them deal with it. it is their job.


Tom Parker said...


You come across as a total nut!!

volfan007 said...

tom parker,

hickory or walnut?

God bless you, sir. may the Lord give you extra grace.


volfan007 said...


btw, do you know what happened at salem, ma? you know, with the girls and the innocent people being accused of witchcraft? and, they were executed? while being totally innocent?


gmommy said...

Funny you posted the last comment.

I had just verbalized to my friends that I wondered why the Christians didn't just gather up the "witches" like Tiffany,
Debbie V. and her baby,
Christa the relentless, and myself...
and burn us at the stake...how dare WE destroy the life of an SBC minister.

There's just so many of us.

Anonymous said...

Thirty-one years ago, my wife was like Tiffany’s daughter. Thirteen, trusting and in an evangelical church every Sunday morning, night and Wednesday. That church is and was just like a Southern Baptist church except that they do not give through the cooperative program; similar conservative doctrine, politically leaning right and evangelistic. She was sexually abused by a church youth worker who coerced her into silence and shame, after the act.

Thirty-one years later, the church treats my wife as the guilty party. The current pastor sent off a scathing letter when we approached AWANA and that great organization checked to make sure the predator was not still working with children (he was up until four years ago). They have told her that by asking for the man who raped her to not be a leader of the church, she is unforgiving and not living a Christian life.

Lest you discount her as a flake, know that she is one of your best and brightest; an IMB missionary who has sacrificed much to share Christ in a part of the world that needs Him greatly. I have my degree from an SBC seminary and I get our distinctive of autonomy. How do we make the leap from autonomy to allowing monsters to hurt our children? If we do not make steps BEFORE we are paying out 600 million dollars per year the world will damn us as fools and criminals and they will be right.
Name withheld at my wife's request

Debbie Kaufman said...

david: Was Darrell Gilyard a "witch hunt?"

From Tiffany's email: There are more than a hundred victims in his past. The cover up by prominent Pastors and leaders is truly amazing. The State Attorneys office cannot even believe what he has been allowed to get away with.

Anonymous said...

GMommy - I so agree with you. Yes, the victims here are the ones being burned at the stake, time and time again! "Telling" the truth on a good ol' boy pastor is tantamount to being able to swim in a lake in Salem, MA so many years ago. And yes, those who tell the truth are being burned at the stake by many churches and church leaders who ought to be helping. Just read the foregoing blogs! History will look back on this terrible chapter in the church with disgust that churches are harboring and protecting sex offenders in the pulpit while discarding and destroying the lives of innocent women and children who have been victimized. Lord help us all at the judgment seat of Christ.

Sharon Rose

volfan007 said...

boy, everytime i come into the outpost or this blog and try to just discuss issues and share my opinion, i end up getting called names and ridiculed and treated bad. i keep telling myself to not come back here, nor to the outpost. but, i come by every now and then just to see what's being discussed. and, every great now and then, i decide to comment. every time i do...i'm treated like this. every time, i regret stopping by. i guess i need to quit coming here.

why do i keep coming back?

also, debbie, i'm not talking about gilyard. if you'll read and comprehend what's being written, you'll notice that i said that we need to make sure that people who are accused of these things are guilty before they're tarred and feathered and lynched by the crowd in here. it looks to me like this crowd is talking about a lot more people than just gilyard. dont you think? as you read all the comments? would you not agree that the discussion is about more than just gilyard?

besides, all that i was trying to say is...we need to remember that some are falsely accused. debbie, would you agree with that? would you?

i've seen people get blood in their eyes before. and, nothing will satisfy thier lust for blood until they've destroyed a few people. in memphis, tn back in the 1980's, on the heels of the child molestation scare of the daycare industry....which happened due to the things that happened in california, i believe it was. a lot of people went hysterical and started accusing day cares all over memphis of molesting thier children. a lot...and, i mean, a lot of innocent people were severely hurt. and, some innocent daycares were brought down. all due to the emotional frenzy...the witchhunt...that happened all over the memphis area.

before some of you in here start destroying people's lives with the scarlet letter M for molester, you need to make sure that people are guilty....that the facts back up what you say.

now, what's so nuts about that?


Ron P. said...

Here is my dilemma: I have family and friends, with whom I am very close, who have been on the receiving end of sexual and physical abuse and I also have close friends who have been falsely accused. I can empathize deeply with both sides of this issue. I have seen up close the devastation of sexual and physical abuse (though not in a church). I know someone who was not believed when sexual abuse was reported. It did happen. I have also seen the lives of several Godly men destroyed by fabricated stories of abuse or adultery or other concocted misdeeds. Both sides of this dilemma are innocent and deserve protection. Tamar was raped by Amnon and was not punished and was killed by Absalom. Joseph was falsely accused of attempting to rape Potiphar's wife. He went to prison for a crime he did not commit. Both have been a part of history for quite some time.

First, I sincerely believe everyone here defending those who have been falsely accused, would be the first in line to publicly condemn and rebuke anyone who has committed not only a crime of abuse, but any sexual sin. I further believe that we would be the first (and loudest) to say that said person is FOREVER disqualified from serving in ministry. They may actually repent at some point, but the consequence is something that they should bear the rest of their life by NEVER serving in a church again! This would include volunteering with babies, kids, teens, and so on. Never means NEVER!

One of the first steps I think we need to take, is to have our laws changed, so that sexual predators are put to death for their crime. I do not suggest that lightly. It is something that for many years I have believed to be terribly wrong with our justice system. How sad is it that a predator or murderer can serve less time in prison, than someone who abuses animals (which is very wrong) or someone who is a "white collar" criminal. Why does our society mourn more for the dogs of Michael Vick than for the victims of sexual predators? By implementing the death penalty on predators, it will keep them from ever committing the crime again, and serves to bring justice to the victim which is Biblical (Deut. 22 and Rom. 13). Governments around the world have abdicated their responsibility to bear the sword.

But we must also protect those who are innocent and have been falsely accused. That is why Paul, by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, gave the instructions mentioned above. It is also why our court system's threshold of guilt in a criminal case is not just a preponderance of the evidence, but requires a higher threshold that the burden of proof must be beyond a reasonable doubt. As heinous as these types of crimes are, anyone accused is deserving of a fair and impartial trial and is (legally) presumed innocent unless found guilty by a court of law. If found guilty, they should be put to death.

No one here is casting stones at victims of predators. I think that people on both sides of this issue, need to see that both issues are real and prevalent. Both sides of this are painful and destructive and neither is a good thing for the Kingdom of God. For those of us who have seen lives ruined by both, we are concerned for both!

Ron P.

Lin said...

"i'm sure that many innocent people accused of sexual crimes would be thankful that people like you are not on the jury. your vision seems to be very blurred...as do others in this comment stream."

David, I anticipated your reaction. And you are right to have that reaction when someone has been victimized and not believed.

It is exactly how the victims feel.

Did your friend call the police? If not, why?

(Questioning how he dealt with the situation seems insulting, doesn't it. The victims know exactly how that feels, too.)

BTW: I am sure there are many victims reading this comment stream who pray you are not on a jury, either.

Anonymous said...

David - "understand that some women will use this accusation to "get" that man that they are mad at...like some men use a punch in the nose to 'get' the man that they're mad at. i've seen it in action."

In all my 50+ years of attending church, I have never met a woman mad enough at a pastor to falsely acuse him of sexual abuse. I find it hard to believe that you personally know so many women out there who are so "onerous" to do such a thing.

I have personally met many women, however, who have credibly accused their pastor, with many other corroberating witnesses--i.e., other victims with credible accusations against the same man as in the Gilyard case--only to be told to keep quiet, be threatened by either the perpetrator pastor or the church elder board, even told to stand before the congregation and apologize for her sexual sin, be labled an "adulteress" and worse, while the pastor is allowed to move on to another church where he harms more women and/or children.

I have never heard of one credible case of any woman who vindictively and maliciously accused her pastor of sexual abuse. And if there is such a case, how is it that her pastor made her so mad that she would want to do something like that in the first place? Aren't pastors supposed to be like Christ? No woman Christ encountered falsely accused Him of sexual abuse.

And that brings up the point that Christ protected women from sexual harm, and treated all women with respect.

Sharon Rose

Lin said...

David, The 'youth' were having sex because of a lack of parenting so just calling the parents was not the best way to deal with it. If he 'caught' them, I have to assume it was in a place where he was in charge to some degree. A camp? At church?

NO, this required something much more serious than calling parents. The police, the pastor, elders, etc.

Are we so hard hearted that we think 'youth' having sex is not that big of a deal? I am sure he learned his lesson and knows next time, to lower the boom fast and get as many witnesses as possible involved as soon as possible. Not just to protect him but for the salvation of those 'youth'.

Anonymous said...

"First, I sincerely believe everyone here defending those who have been falsely accused, would be the first in line to publicly condemn and rebuke anyone who has committed not only a crime of abuse, but any sexual sin."

What about those in ministry who protect the predator? Or those who sweep it under the rug and don't want their congregation to know a predator was on staff. What about them? Are they still qualified to be in ministry?

What about those ministers/leaders who even go so far as to affirm those in ministry who protect pedaphile ministers? Speaking in their churches acting as if nothing happened. Never rebuking them publicly or anything? What do you suggest about that?

See, this problem runs much deeper than just the minister who is a predator. He has those who will protect him and think they are protecting the church and denomination by keeping it all quiet and allowing the predator to go from church to church.

What say you?


volfan007 said...


Jesus went to the cross on false accusations...not by women, but mostly by onery, mean, ruthless men.

also, joseph was falsely accused by potiphar's wife. he spent time in prison for something he did not do.

a man in illinois spent time in prison for years, but was released several years back when the woman finally admitted that she lied.

and, sharon, you may not know of women who have been that mad at a pastor...but, i have. and, sometimes, i've seen people get mad at pastors for preaching the truth of God's Word and it shed light on thier sins, and for rejecting their sexual advances, and for leading the church to do something that they didnt like and the whole thing blew up out of porportion, or for standing against homosexuality when their child was a homosexual, or for preaching against shacking up and thier daughter was shacking up with a boy, and the list goes on and on of the things that people get mad at pastors for. shucks, i've seen some people get fighting mad because the pastor didnt come to see them in the hospital when he didnt even know that they were in the hospital. and, sharon, some people are so mean and onery that they'd use false accusations of all sorts to try to "get" that pastor.

now, i know for a fact that there are some pastors that have committed sexual crimes. i know of one in illinois that's in prison for having sex with an underage girl, and he admitted to having sexual relations with six other grown women in the church.

also, i have family and friends that were sexually molested. some told about it. others have not, except in private. i feel sorry for them. i pray for healing in their hearts. so, i'm not talking about something that has not personally touched my life.

but, i also know some men who have been falsely accused. and, this is just as bad. we need to be careful.


Lin said...

David, these pastors may want to read Billy Grahams biography. He went to great lengths to make sure that no accusation could ever stick because the 'opportunity' was never there.

And I have to agree with Sharon. In all my years working with hundreds of churches, I have never heard of ONE single false accusation. Doesn't mean it does not happen or couldn't happen. But I have to agree it is rare.

Usually predators are protected and we rarely hear about them until they have had quite a few victims.

volfan007 said...


i'm sorry, but i just cant agree with your statement about those parents not doing a good job of parenting if they're children were having sex. i mean, i agree that they should have been taught better...probably. i dont know these people personally. so, maybe they were taught better. but, if we're talking about 17 yr old teens, and with both parents having to work outside the home, then how in the world could they keep thier eyes on them 24/7? are you saying that you never did anything that your parents did not know about? that they disapproved of?

i had great parents. they taught me well. they loved me. but, i'll guarantee you that i did a lot of things that they would not have liked, nor approved of; and they never found out about it until i told them some of those things later on in life. anyone with teens knows that they can do a lot of things that you dont know about....even if you're the greatest parent on earth.

and, no, my friend did not call the cops on two practically grown, consenting people. are you telling me that if you found two 17 yr olds having sex in one of them's home, that you would just call the cops right then? that you wouldnt just tell the parents? why would you want to get the police involved in a teen love affair? doesnt that seem a bit harsh?


Tom Parker said...


Why do you always endlessly argue with people?

Lin said...

David, First of all, those kids were lost long ago if they were 17,in church and having sex. They are part of the youth group, right?

I guess they did not hear much at church to convict their hearts of sin. Quite frankly, I know lots of teens who are waiting and did wait until marriage. Fortuantly, it has become somewhat cool to do so.

I most definitly would have called the pastor, parents and elders since they were 17 and members of the church. Absolutely. I could care less how mad that made the parents. As their youth minister there is a lot more at stake here than feelings: Salvation.

Maybe part of our problem with this sort of thing...including predators...and those who protect them... is that we have dumbed down sin the to degree we hardly recognize it anymore. After all, everybody does it. We should expect it, right?

(And yes, I am chief of all sinners so don't even go there)

Debbie Kaufman said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
volfan007 said...


the sexual rendevouz was in thier home...not at church.

they had been taught from the pulpit that sex outside of marriage is wrong. they also heard the gospel. they heard a lot fo the Word of God taught and preached. my friend is a bible preacher. so, they did hear. wow! you sure do make gigantic leaps in your condemnation of people that you dont even know.

also, my whole point was about calling the parents rather than the police. that's what i said.


volfan007 said...


i guess that's just how us nuts are.

david :)

Lin said...

David, It gets tiresome to defend an innocent person's actions, doesn't it.

Debbie Kaufman said...

david: I'm not sure how to answer you. I don't know anything about the day care case you asked about. I also do not know how to answer about your friend. False accusation issues should be talked about and worked out you are correct, I don't know legally or morally what a person should do in such a case. I would disagree that there are as many false accusations as you claim. Believe me it's not fun for anyone to go through that has been a victim, then they testify at trial to become a victim again by the defense lawyer. Before the trial they have to tell the story over and over again. First to law enforcement, then again to the DA and again to a counselor and again in court. It's not a picnic and it is a long process to trial. It's not anything I think a lot of people would purposely subject themselves to, but I'm sure there are some unstable people out there.

Read again the email in this post. Read Christa Brown's site on this very subject. There are Darrel Gilyards out there and that I do know the proper thing to do. Do you remember the RCC fiasco? We are not far behind. These issues would have to be worked out for those falsely accused, but there is no problem knowing what to do with those who are guilty.

Anonymous said...


i pray this never happens, but where would you stand if this was your dauther?

Anonymous said...

David, You say you know of six women who were sexually abused by a man who is now serving time in prison for assaulting a youth under age.

My question to you is, what have you personally done, as a pastor, since you are personally aware of their situation, to bring comfort and care to those six women, and the under age victim of this man? What did the church do for these women and the under age youth? Are the women accepted in their church, and being given the opportunity to heal with the support of other church members? Have they been "restored" in their faith and fellowship in their church? Did the church offer to help them financially to pay for the counseling they undoubtedly had to go through to get over the trauma of sexual assault?

For a victim of sexual abuse, there could be many years of recovery; it is a process. It will affect her married life, if she is married. It will definitely affect her ability to relate to others. It will affect her ability to trust others, especially those in positions of power in the church if her assailant was a pastor. It may even affect her faith in God.

What is the church's responsibility to women and children who have been sexually assaulted by a pastor?

I am glad to hear you say you feel that if a pastor is "proven" guilty of sexual crimes that he should receive the fullest punishment he deserves. I am sure you are aware that "proof" in sexual abuse cases doesn't necessarily have to include forensic, tangible evidence. Although, if the police are informed in a timely fashion, there is the hope that perhaps DNA evidence can be gathered. Evidence in sexual abuse cases can include the testimony of a psychological counselor in many instances. But, more importantly, as a pastor yourself with godly compassion of others, I'd be interested in knowing what you did to help these six women and the underage youth once you became aware of their situation?

What has anyone done to minister to Tiffany Croft as a credible accuser of Darrel Gilyard? Certainly Patterson (and others) did not minister to her or Gilyard's other victims in the last 16 years. It seems that throwing stones is about all some of you are able to do.

Sharon Rose

Rex Ray said...

David or 007,
You need some advice. There’s nothing wrong with ‘Yankee Doodle’ or standing up for the falsely accused. But you don’t sing ‘Yankee Doodle’ at a funeral march.

If Wade’s post was on the ‘falsely accused’, everyone would agree with you.
You seem to delight in taking the opposite view. The reason I see this is because I’m much the same way.

I still remember a high school teacher falsely accusing me of writing the correct answer over her red marks.

Bill said...

I'm not usually in agreement with David but I have to say that the claim that kids having sex is the result of bad parenting and bad preaching is just out of line. Parents and churches do what they can, imperfectly to be sure, but that is no guarantee that children will hear and obey. Are the children of good parents sinless? Or are they only free of the "big" sins?

Christa Brown said...

Experts estimate that fabricated reports of child sex abuse constitute only 1 to 4 percent of all reported cases. A lawyer who has defended Catholic dioceses on more than 500 priest abuse lawsuits concluded that fewer than 10 were based on false accusations.

Anonymous said...

Bill and David - my dear brothers in Christ - it seems to me when I first came to this sight that the topic was Gilyard sexually assaulting 100 women along his path as a pastor in numerous churches, not David's poor unfortunate pastor friend who put himself in the wrong place at the wrong time--what was he doing at the home of these teens in the first place? It seems to me there's a lot more to that story that hasn't been shared...but that story is not the story here.

David's story is simply a diversion tactic to try to take attention away from the issue at hand: Gilyard, a detestable man, who year after year was allowed to move on in Baptist churches until finally he started to go after a child; he finally got "caught" and now faces charges.

And perhaps if it weren't for the efforts of Christa Brown months ago, he might not have been caught.

I applaude Wade and others who have put themselves on the line for the cause of many women who have been victimized, and not just by Gilyard. There are countless other unscrupulous sex offenders who, unfortunately, have secured positions of power in churches. This is not just an SBC or RCC issue--it is an every-denomination issue, every-autonomous church issue, an "every" church issue. It's time to give that power back to the Lord Jesus Christ, and for good, faithful men (and women, if that is your preference) who are biblically qualified to present the gospel, to stand up and take back the pulpit.

It's time for good men and women to put an end to the notion that all a sex offender has to do is attend seminary (or not), and gain some credibility with godly men based on his narcissistic, charismatic personality to get into a very powerful position of trust in the church and community. God tests the heart, not personality traits. We need to follow suit.

And if a pastor/sex offender is caught by credible witnesses (including therapists who are treating victims of the pastor), the pastor should never be allowed back in the ministry--No matter how many "tears" are shed, or how well he "repents." Sex offenders, by the nature of their illness, can never again be entrusted with that kind of power. It would be like giving an alcoholic his bartender job again. It would be absurd to think the alcoholic wouldn't be tempted to take a drink. And the outcome with sex offenders, if they take "another drink" is devastating. Restore him back to the fold of God? Yes. But restore him back to the pulpit or position of church leadership? Absolutely not. He has disqualified himself by his own actions. God's "grace" would never put the sheepfold in harm's way like that. God's "grace" should include protecting innocent lives.

Sharon Rose

volfan007 said...


where do you come off suggesting that i'd be for rapists and molestors going free? not being punished? you have totally misjudged me, and you've completely condemned me without even knowing me. if a person was molesting an underage girl...if the facts back that up...then, i'd be for throwing the book at him. and, that goes for any man who is truly molesting a girl or boy, and that goes for anyone whether it was my daughter that was molested or not. i dont care if the man was a pastor, or a banker, or a garbage truck driver...if he's truly guilty of molesting some innocent child, then he ought to be punished. and, for you to suggest that i'd think otherwise just shows that you are either not reading what i'm writing, or else you're ignorant and cant understand what i'm writing, or else you just get so mad at someone that doesnt go along with your program that you dont care about the facts...you just want to hang 'em high.

sharon, i do not live in illinois. i do not know those women. i have no idea what happened to all of those women. only one of them was underage....the rest were grown, married woman who chose to commit adultery with this pastor. the man...the pastor...who did all of this is someone that i just know about. i dont know him. i do know that he went to prison for what he did with the 16 yr old girl. i believe that he was also having an affair with this girl's married mother. that's all i know. btw, i live in tennessee... which is a long way from illinois. and, for you to make this statement..."It seems that throwing stones is about all some of you are able to do"...leaves me scratching my head. where have i thrown any stones? what in the world are you talking about?

sharon, are you for throwing any man who is accused of sexual abuse into prison? what if it was just a he said/she said type of thing...with no other proof? are you that blinded by anger, or whatever it is that's motivating you in this "crusade" that you would destroy an innocent man's ministry and life...all on the say so of a girl? who may be mad at the man?

i know of another man who doesnt live too far from me. he was a pastor. his wife and him took in two teen girls that lived in a horrible situation. their home life was absolutely terrible. so, out of the kindness of his heart, they took in these two teen girls to get them out of a horrible situation. now, of course, coming into his home, they had rules and punishments for not keeping those rules...as all parents do. and, one of the girls...the older of the two....didnt like those rules. she broke the rules. and, when she was punished for breaking the rules by being grounded...she got mad at the pastor. she accused him of raping her. he is now out of the ministry and went thru "hades" due to the accusation of this girl. with no proof. with no other evidence. with no history of child abuse. this girl turned this pastor's life into a living nightmare...all due to her being mad at him for making her abide by thier family rules.

and, believe me, with tv today...these kids know a lot of intimate details about sex. so, they are very smart about describing sexual acts...all they have to do is watch one night of hbo. so, dont say that a teen girl wouldnt know how to describe a sexual act on her...especially if she's been promiscuous.

and, i pray that no man in the ministry will have to go thru a false accusation by a girl.

i also pray that no true child molestor will get away with it.


Jake Barker said...

Ol' Hillbilly(volfan007),
There is an obvious question to be asked here that it seeems no one has asked yet. What was the "innocent" preacher doing at a private residence to catch the "practically grown, consenting" people having sex? It would seem to me that he would have had to be in the house to catch them in the act....is that not illegal entry at the least? Or was he a peeping tom that caught them by looking through the bedroom windows? Whoops....forgot a possible scenario....if it was in Tennessee maybe they were having sex in the barn and the preacher was in the barn admiring the family's fine livestock.

volfan007 said...


first of all, how dare you make remarks about my pastor friend that suggests that he may be guilty of the crime. that's incredible and very telling about your attitude towards this issue. you dont know him...nor do you know the issue. i do.

secondly, when you say...."David's story is simply a diversion tactic to try to take attention away from the issue at hand:" what? that is a lie. you are not telling the truth, and you have once again misjudged me. if darrel gilyard is guilty...which it really looks like he is....then i'm for throwing the book at him. my motivation for commenting is an answer to the comments i've seen in this thread which seemed to be getting very angry and hateful towards a lot of people....even casting suspension on all ministers....and, i was just trying to balance out all the anger flying around in this comment stream by reminding everyone that there are some pastors out there who are falsely accused...in spite of christa brown's studies. and, we need to keep that in mind before we go on a "get those molesting ministers" witchhunt.

i've seen angry, scared people overreact before. i lived in memphis when a church and many daycares went thru the fire...some even closed down...people's lives were badly affected...all because of mass hysteria and false accusations from some angry people who were on a "crusade."


volfan007 said...


your idiotic remarks dont even deserve an answer. how incredibly mean and cruel of you to even say the things that you're saying.

btw, my friend went to the house of these people because they were church members of his, and he dropped by for a visit and was let in by the older brother of the boy making the accusations. i'm sure that the older brother thought it would be funny to let the preacher "catch" the younger brother in such a situation. but, i dont know for sure....i dont know them that well. i really cant say.

but, jake, you really need to take a long, hard look at your heart.


WatchingHISstory said...

We have heard homosexuals denounced from the pulpit with outrage. Bold preachers speak out boasting they will not be silenced about this awful shame. Most of these preachers know the homosexuals are on the west coast. They are courted by Hollywood and the arts. Politicians and educators support them. Fundamentalist preachers rail upon them.

However has anyone heard an angry sermon railing Paul Williams, himself an ordained SBC preacher credentialed by the flagship SBC Church, Bellevue Baptist, pastored by Adrian Rogers.

Is it because Paul Williams was an associate of Rogers? Is it because Williams was an associate at the flagship church of the SBC?

Why the silence now about homosexuality?

WatchingHISstory said...

Consider the statistics (Christa's)for "it's under the blood, Williams"

Adolescents who suffer violent victimization are at risk for being victims or perpetrators of felony assault, domestic violence, and property offense as adults.
Nearly 50% of women in prison state that they were abused as children.
Over 75% of serial rapists report they were sexually abused as youngsters.
Most perpetrators don't molest only one child if they are not reported and stopped.

Nearly 70% of child sex offenders have between 1 and 9 victims; at least 20% have 10 to 40 victims. (23)
An average serial child molester may have as many as 400 victims in his lifetime.

Bellevue's investigation concluded that Chris was the sole victim and that it never happened again and no harm was ever there during the 17+ years in the halls of Bellevue.

These statistics suggest that we have no ideal of the harm that was done and continues today!


Anonymous said...

"first of all, how dare you make remarks about my pastor friend that suggests that he may be guilty of the crime."

David, this is exactly how many of us feel about the slanted comments made about Tiffany's e-mail to Wade. And the slanted questions asked of any victim who comes forward to dare to accuse any minister predator or those who protect them.

You are getting a dose of what they get everyday except in this case...none of us are big name influencers. You can imagine what these victims are up against.

I wish you could have seen how the minister pedophile's victim (his son) at BBC was treated by Gaines in front of the whole church at a staged business meeting. It was reprehensible.

I just hope this conversation will soften your approach to victims of this horrible crime and help you to see that those who affirm and protect those who are predators must stop within our SBC churches.

Patterson spoke at BBC recently and is having Gaines speak at SWBTS chapel. Where is the rebuke? Where is the outrage over allowing a pedophile to remain on staff as a minister?


Debbie Kaufman said...

david: From what I understand from the extensive reading of the facts both from Christa's site and other news sources, it is not true that these were affairs, it's doing a wrong to these women to say this. Read the email written in this post. This was sexual abuse, rape. Just because a woman is 18 or older does not constitute an affair. I know this may be what is being reported by those who did nothing, but from what I understand this is simply not true. Over 25 women tried to report him, his victims number over 100. I am willing to be corrected by those who know more if I am wrong on this, but this is my comprehension of the facts.

I suggest you read the email sent to Wade on this post again.

WatchingHISstory said...

Where is the rebuke of the pedophile at Bellevue? Where is the outrage that the pervert was on staff 17 years undetected by Adrian Rogers?

Your speculation that Gaines mistreated Chris Williams is that, speculation. An outside parlimentarian was in charge and he was following rules and a motion to adjourn was on the floor.(I wasn't there, so I am relying on first hand witnesses)
The parlimentarian would not have even recognized Chris if he did see him approaching the mike.

Your speculations are forcing those who are directly involved in this situation to fight off unfounded rumors and in fighting your rumors they are then accused of cover-ups. It's a "catch out" for you to tie their hands. You are more concerned in entrapment of these men than actually seeing the pervert going to jail.

I would personally like to see a SBC minister pervert rot in a prison as a convicts "girlfriend." Even if he is "under the blood".

volfan007 said...


what are you talking about? i was not even talking about gilyard when i was mentioning the pastor in illinois. debbie, i declare that i have to wonder if you even read what i write sometimes. the pastor in illinois had the affairs with six women, and he molested a 16 yr old girl...even though she too was not physically forced to have sex with this man. still, she was too young to consent. the older women were all grown women who were married and knew exactly what they were doing. this pastor was a very good looking, charming fella, and they wanted to have a sexual affair with him.

lucy, i'm talking about someone insinuating that my friend was guilty when they have no idea about the events. that's what i was talking about when i said what i did. that person has no idea what took place with my pastor friend who was falsely accused by an older teen boy. so, please, get your facts straight before scolding me for having "wrong idea's" about child abuse.


WatchingHISstory said...

on the "open forum" dedidcated to destroying Steve Gaines here in Memphis Lin said

"After reading the comments on Wade's blog...guess who came across as a real preacher?

Ezekial. Hands down."

10:37 PM, March 10, 2008

Did you all know there was a contest to see who could out preach everyone. Hard to win a race where you are not informed there is a race until the winner is announced!

Ezekial is my "spiritalist advisor" He keeps count of my demons. He's good!


Emily Hunter McGowin said...


With sincere love and respect, as a sister in Christ, I urge you to realize that wisdom is as much about what you speak as it is about learning when not to speak (James 3:1-17). You have mentioned before the lack of reception your comments have received. I would suggest you resist defensiveness, ponder why this is the case, and then carefully consider when to speak again.

Grace and peace to you today,


Anonymous said...

David - I do not believe I made any remarks suggesting your friend was guilty of the alleged crime. You have not provided anyone in this forum with enough information about that case to determine whether he is guilty or not. And no one on this blog site is the jury or judge. I have made no judgments about your friend, and I apologize if I came across that way to you.

You stated, "...any man who is truly molesting...if he is truly guilty...ought to be punished...." You are clear, and I hear you, that you want to put away sex offenders. For that you are to be commended. I sincerely mean that.

But I have a little problem with your use of the word "truly" and your other comment "...if the facts back that up...." I quite agree with you. I was merely trying to remind you and others that in sex abuse cases--because of the nature of sex abuse and how that works--there is usually little or no forensic, tangible evidence. The courts have learned to rely on other means of proof in sex abuse cases. So, what do you mean by "truly" and "if the facts back that up"? It would help if you clarified your use of those terms.

The fact that you related a story from Illinois that you "just know about" is merely heresay, and that invalidates your point. You admit that you do not personally know any of the six women or the child who brought allegations of sexual abuse against the pastor who is now serving time in jail. Yet, you pronounced all of the women in that case adultresses. How do you know categorically that any of the women in that situation committed adultery? Do you have factual proof they did? It is this kind of mentality that I refer to as "throwing stones" (cf. John 8:4-11).

The Bible says (I Tim. 5:19) that an accusation against a church leader (pastor, elder etc.) made by two or three witnesses ought to be accepted by those in authority over the accused (in these cases, the elder board, deacon board, president of the college, etc.). The Greek text does not insert the word "credible" in that verse as so many preachers have done. It is not a case of "he said/she said."

There is a case of clergy sexual abuse, where I personally interviewed and minisetered to the women involved, where the elders of the church had testimony from four victims, along with testimony from several pastors. The elder board discounted the testimony of so many witnesses. The women victims were treated deplorably, and, yes, were maliciously labeled "adultresses," among other things.

In the Gilyard case, how many witnesses does there have to be before you will stop calling the adult victims of Gilyard (and other pastor predators)adultresses? You even admit that you believe Gilyard is probably guilty.

In regard to your friend who was falsely accused by the alleged rebellious teen, I defer you to Christa Brown's statistic about false reporting of child sex abuse.

The Gilyard case is not about a child molestor. He allegedly sent a leud text message(s) to a young teen in his congregation. From what I understand, he did not molest her.

The importance of the Gilyard case lies in his background. Gilyard had a long history of abusing women--women who tried to tell the authorities, and get him stopped--women who were discounted as being adulteresses, angry women out to bring a "good ol' boy" down.

The Gilyard case is shedding light as to whether adult victims of clergy sexual abuse are merely grown women "who chose to commit adultery" with their pastor, or if they are, in fact, victims of a narcissistic, sociopathic sex offender who used his power and the church as his cover. I find it extremely hard to believe that 100 women were so willing to have sex with poor, innocent Gilyard, and men like him in the ministry. And, even if they did, where was Gilyard's responsibility for exercising discretion in all of that? Was he not in a position of power over each of the 100 women? Was he so weak that he could not just use his power to get these angry women away from him? If he were truly godly, he would have behaved differently.

And no, I am not angry. I am deeply saddened by clergy sexual abuse. That men would use the church to pervert who Jesus is makes me sick to my stomach. The One who is angry is God (cf. Eph. 5:3-7 "...the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience..."). It is Him we should all fear in light of clergy sexual abuse.

Sharon Rose

Debbie Kaufman said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Deborah said...

Regarding the very first comment in this stream...Timothy, I read through your list. And one of the men on that list that was accused of adulterous relationships was a member of the church that I was member in which this youth/music minister molested young teen boys. So, we see what a shining example (sarcasm) the minister was for the then young preacher boy. I also know that another preacher boy from that same time....had to resign from his church because of adultery.

The whole thing just turns my stomach.

Only the Lord Jesus Christ can redeem what the locusts have eaten.

volfan007 said...

any grown, married woman that would commit sexual sin with a man is not a victim. please! did gilyard make them have sex with him? no. they chose to have sex with him. that is an adulteress.

now, was gilyard wrong? yes, of course. his sin was the most grievious. but, you're telling me that none of these women were under age that he had sex with? that they were all grown women? then there was nothing criminal about what he did. wrong in the eyes of God...yes...but, criminal? no.

and, yes, the women were just as guilty as he was. you know, this reminds me of somebody ordering hot coffee at mcdonalds, and then they SPILL IT on their own lap, and then they sue mcdonalds for giving them hot coffee. puuleeease!

or, how about the woman lawyer on the news who lost around a million dollars, i believe, and now she's suing the casino. come on, give me a break! no body made that woman gamble...and nobody made her keep gambling until she lost a million dollars. and, nobody forced those grown women to commit adultery with thier pastor. good grief, charlie brown!

and, sharon, about the pastor in illinois...it's not gossip. he and the women all confessed to the sexual affairs. the six grown women and the underage girl and the pastor all confessed to the sex and the crime. it's not speculation, nor is it just me repeating what someone told them from what someone told them. i know it for a fact. believe me, i know it for a fact.

also, sharon, what i mean by proof or facts of a sex crime are just that...facts. evidence. proof. i mean, how in the world can you destroy a persons life all on the basis of what one person just alleges happened? i couldnt. a he said/she said type of thing should never lead to the destruction of someones life. my goodness! where would that end?

let's not forget about joseph and potiphar's wife.


Tom Parker said...


I think it is a shame that you have directed this blog away from its intended subject. You have hijacked this blog and tried to make it about you.

Tom Parker said...


I think it is a shame that you have directed this blog away from its intended subject. You have hijacked this blog and tried to make it about you.

R. L. Vaughn said...

Christa, are there any statistics available concerning fabricated reports among adults? Thanks.

WatchingHISstory said...

Seriously, Has anyone heard a sermon denouncing Paul Williams' homosexual sodomy of his own young son? Am I saying something wrong here?

Emily, Am I making the same error as David? Does Paul Williams deserve the kind of wisdom that doesn't condemn him? Should we just love him?

Is there something that is so sacred here that I miss? We don't take Nietzsche serious cause we all know he was crazy. Am I crazy?

Please forgive me if my bringing up Williams, Rogers and Bellevue offends you.

Christa Brown said...

In Texas (and some other states as well), the law calls it "sexual assault" when a clergyman uses his position of spiritual trust to sexually exploit another, including another adult. The law calls it a "felony", not an "affair." It's the same sort of felony that it would be if a psychologist, therapist, chemical dependency counselor, or other mental health professional sexually exploited a person.

r.l. vaughn - Off the top of my head, I am unaware of any available statistical data related to fabricated reports of abuse inflicted on adults.

R. L. Vaughn said...

Thanks. Also thanks for the information about Texas law. I had assumed adult cases were moral issues rather than legal ones. I guess it then becomes a legal question of whether there was sexual exploitation or mutual consensual immorality without exploitation.

Emily Hunter McGowin said...

Watching HisStory,

My comment was addressed to David because it was meant for David. I have nothing to say about the man to whom you are referring.

My point is that when it comes to uninformed and inexperienced people making glib comments about cases of sexual assault, sexual harassment of women, and known sexual predators in the pulpit, I am sympathetic with the advice of Mark Twain: "It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."

I think David, and others, would do well to listen to this advice.

Grace and peace,


Anonymous said...

David - This is how clergy sexual abuse works: The one who forces the grown women into having sex with him is the pastor perpetrator. He does this by brainwashing, coercion, or even possibly brute force once he gets her alone. He then threatens her if she tells. There is usually a "grooming period" where he establishes trust with the victim, and develops the brainwashing. That's why it is called "abuse," and not "love making." It is not about sex; it is about abuse. It is not consentual because a pastor holds much more power than a woman parishioner. The pastor is in a position of trust. There is a great power difference. Sex is just the weapon used (along with manipulation, brainwashing, etc.). This is clergy sexual abuse. The effects to the victim are far worse than any false accusation against a pastor--notwithstanding that false accusations are horrible.

In the Gilyard case, there wasn't just "one" woman; there were 100 women.

I do not believe anyone should falsely accuse an innocent man. Nor do I condone what Potiphar's wife did to Joseph. I can only respond with the words of Joseph himself in Genesis 50:20, "But as for you (speaking to Joseph's brothers who sold him into slavery in the first place), you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive." God greatly rewarded Joseph for the suffering he endured.

Tom Parker - Thank you for redirecting this blog to the intended subject. Tiffany Croft is asking for help in stopping an apparently violent man. When the dust settles, I can only hope there are those in the SBC who will lend their aid to help the 100 women who were harmed by Gilyard, as well as the teens who received leud text messages from him.

Sharon Rose

gmommy said...

"watching" has been banned from all the blogs he posted on...except his own.

He gets a thrill out of using graphic language and pretending he cares about a victim he doesn't even respect enough to state the facts correctly or NOT use his name publicly.
So sorry he is tainting this discussion.
He has proven himself extremely unstable.

Tiffany Thigpen Croft said...

I hesitate to speak because so much gets misconstrued. The letter to Wade was a cry for help. I have asked for help from many leaders and those already interested in helping abuse victims within the church. As you read the letter, you will see that I did not ask for him to bash anyone or call them out (and he has not) I simply asked if he had any suggestions. Due to his voice and many readers, he offered to post something on his blog to help bring attention to the problem.
Due to the experience here in Jacksonville, I can assure you that if it were not for the publicity and pressure, not to mention the bravery of the two young victims (14 and 16) families in going to authorities (after going to the church and Gilyard) this would have been quietly handeled and he would have walked away. If the public was not made aware, corruption within the system (Gilyards personal friends of influence) would have kept it from becoming the case that it is now - investigation by the State Attorneys office and Jax. Sex Crimes Detectives. They are diligently working on this case under much pressure and I applaud them. Gilyard hired a high priced attorney known for getting charges dropped against high profile people. Would he do this if he were innocent? He also admitted to the leaders and families that he was innappropriate with the girls. He has a long history of this at that church alone - the leaders under Darrell's influence (and probably fear) have been known to use church insurance to settle grievances with the families of his past minor aged and adult victims. Due to the number of pay off's, he is considered "high risk" to the insurance companies.
These families were not going to be paid off, or kept quiet, they did not even know of his past or all of the victims before them.
I am not out on a campaign against Patterson or Vines. Dr. Vines was my pastor for most of my life and I have always loved and respected him as my former Pastor. He does not condone Gilyard's behavior, as I am sure Patterson does not either. The point is more needs to be done. They made mistakes, we all do. They are more accountable for their actions as leaders and that is why so many are attacking them. I do feel more could have been done by them and many others along the way - I wish I had done more. The point is let's look at these errors and see how we can make changes and properly/effectively handle this in the future. Right now my main goal is to make sure Darrell NEVER finds a vulnerable place again. He targeted his victims, including the women he had affairs with - they do not need to be reminded of their guilt in it, they have to live with it. He used counseling to seduce people, using their vulnerability against them, telling them their husbands were not worthy of them and then telling them things he knew they wanted to hear. This is predatory. The young victims, well that doesn't even need further explanation, they were youths. Then,, let's deal with all that were out right raped (not everyone fell for his charms, so he took it anyway). He has much charm, charisma, intimidation and influence. Much of this comes from all of the years of being highly exhalted and promoted within the church circuits and then getting away with his crimes.
Many of his victims have contacted me and are scared to death to speak against him. Why? He is very powerful because of the influence he wields. He has threatened grown men effectively, how much more powerful is that against a female victim?
The point of all of this is that he has gotten away with this since atleast 1987. Why? What can we do to not allow that ridiculous, abominable behavior to be allowed to sneak from church to church?
That is what I am asking of our leaders. No defense of past mistakes, no attacks for speaking out certainly, but some empathy for the victims and less concern about being politically correct in leadership roles. I feel there is a fear of Pastor standing against Pastor because they may be seen as unforgiving and somehow less Godly. I think as real strong men of God change that image, they will realize they are actually respected more!
Will Real Men Of God stand up for change and accountability?
Pastors should tread lightly on allegations of misconduct, I agree. But they should also be willing to be open minded and consider the possibility and be very careful not to discredit or attack the victim. It takes a great deal of courage to come forward and I assure you no victim taked it lightly. Then, the perpetrator (no matter what his position in the church) needs to be reported to the authorities (encourage and assist the victim. If it is not criminal, then we should have a way to list that person publicly to protect the next church. Background checks are only effective if there is a criminal record or if the referring previous church is honest about the person's past.
These men do tend to move to another church, because they are not afraid of being exposed or "outed". They go quietly (to keep the current church from facing scandal) and they simply gain more power. The victims suffer quietly and are quickly forgotten if not shunned by the church. They cannot recover this way.
We HAVE to make changes. That is my motive. I have no axe to grind other than the fact that there are around 100 victims from this man, they are forever hurt, scarred by this and they receive no relief from the leadership who should be helping them. They usually leave the church altogether. If they are not saved when this happens, who is responsibe for that lost soul?
That is an abomination to the loving God we claim to serve. Denomination does not matter, SBC or not, peoples lives are at stake. It affects marriages, it affects families, it affects the outcome of the young girls lives who never see things the same after this.
What are we going to do? Rip each other up? Tear each other down? Debate the politically correct church thing to do? Hide behind the much used excuse of "falsely accsing someone"? Wake up people, God is surely mourning this issue, do you think He wishes for this to continue within His church?
God bless you all and I pray that out of all of this some changes will be made as God leads your hearts.
Tiffany Croft

Debbie Kaufman said...

david: I deleted the comment where I apologized for misreading you. Unfortunately I was comprehended your post quite well.

Anonymous said...

Tiffany - I believe good will come out of this situation. Good has already come.

And I believe there are good, godly Christians in the SBC who will affect change to protect children and innocent women from harmful men who have eluded the better judgment of pastoral search committees. Men like Wade Burleson and Bob Allen are already stepping up to the plate. Others need to join them.

"God is surely mourning this issue." He is holding the weight of the tears of so many clergy abuse victims as a testament. He has recorded our cries for help. I believe the Lord will raise up His true servants to bring about change. This is ultimately His battle against a formidable and ancient foe. God has always been victorious in the past...He will be victorious in this situation.

And one day I believe we will say with Joseph, "You meant this for evil, but God meant it for good to save many people's lives."

I hope and trust that SBC leadership will diligently work together to study this issue further, to put an end to perpetrators in the pulpit, and set an example for other churches and denominations who look to the SBC for guidance.

Sharon Rose

WatchingHISstory said...

gmommy said: "He gets a thrill out of using graphic language and pretending he cares about a victim he doesn't even respect enough to state the facts correctly or NOT use his name publicly."

gmommy is the boss over at the "open forum" she dictates what is right and wrong. She uses "thrill" and "pretend" to "poison the well" about me.

Let me state the facts for her and she can clarify. (I do not get a thrill out of saying this)
Paul Williams, an associate pastor of Bellevue Baptist working with Adrian Rogers for about 32 years sodomized his son, Chris Williams' in perverse ways night after night while his mother slept peacefully in the other bedroom. He did this for 12-18 months.

A man of the cloth, counselor, teacher and prayer leader not only raped his own son criminally he seduced him into a lifestyle of bondage that no man can escape. His innocence was taken and he was introduced to perversness no child should ever have to endure.

Even Chris has to be watched and distrusted because of his father. With counseling and spiritual help Chris has received help; I am sure of that but he will never be able to erase the perverse memories. He will never be able to trust himself!

You say I get a thrill, gmommy, I am shaking with outrage. Outrage at Paul williams and those like you who have buried their heads in the sand.

yes I will be on this site till all opposing views are moderated and only agreeable postings are allowed. Or else my comments will suddenly be censored due to truthfulness.

I am angry, very angry and I refuse to not be angry by a bunch of blogging snobs tied to Bellevue Baptist discipled by Adrian Rogers.

Anonymous said...


as a Pastor I would think that you as a representative of Jesus Christ would put your self in the shoes of the women who ask for help from PP. what do your wife and daughter think about all of this? in my mind you seem to display a very low option of the opposite sex.

Anonymous said...

fkWatching - you must be very hurt by what happened. I am so sorry this happened. You apparently know first hand of the horrors of clergy abuse. And by your reaction to being "silenced" or "censored" here, you can understand how women victims feel when they are told to just keep quiet about what happened. It's terribly frustrating.

Incest is an awful thing, but when it happens with a pastor it is even worse. Your outrage over the incident speaks loudly; and causes me to understand that you understand the outrage of others who have been victimized by unscrupulous men in the clergy. I can certainly respect you for that.

Perhaps you can find a way to channel the energy of your anger in positive ways to help stop predators in the pulpit.

Perhaps you would be willing to stand up against men like Gilyard, and use your influence to help create a policy and/or structure regarding clergy sexual abuse for SBC churches. Do you have any ideas of how to constructively help?

And that is what this blog is about.

God cares for all the victims: children, women, and secondary victims (like spouses, parents, and congregants).

Sharon Rose

Anonymous said...

Watching - Oh my!!! Please forgive the typo! It is absolutely NOT intended to be anything derogatory! Or anything directed to you or anyone else. It is a TYPO, and an error. I was trying to type the "word verification" and it missed.

Sharon Rose

oc said...


Back at it, are you?
Trying to beat up on gmommy? Does it feel good to feel the power of beating up on women? And exposing victims names, without their consent?
Or are you just getting revved up for more of your sick postings that have gotten you banned from other blogs?

Listen buddy, lay off of her. Go ahead and blast me instead. Get it done with, so that this blog can get on with more holy business.

By the way, tell this blog about the "vision" you had, channelled through your dog.


oc said...


Watch yourselves with "watchinghisstory".
You may find yourselves sorry in a hurry.


WatchingHISstory said...


No problem. I got a good laugh out of it, thanks for the humor!

OC, good to hear from you. I've missed you and your empty threats. Invite the crowd to join in. I have many more sick postings for you.

I still eagerly await a face to face visit with you.

your friend

oc said...


I have no more empty threats for you. I promise.

But lay off of gmommy.

And tell us about your vision. If it is from God, then these Godly people will know. So go ahead.

Then afterwards, this blog can get back to the issue at hand.

Go ahead, show yourself.

WatchingHISstory said...

Just for you. This is not a new post but the old post that got me censored from the "open forum"

"For you who are not outraged at Paul William for sodomizing his son I am linking to a post refered to by New Bellevue Baptist Church Open Forum called "Rape of Faith" which is from Bishop's Accountability website. It will help you to understand in graphic detail what went on in a Bellevue associate Pastor's home for 12-18 months. It is graphic.

"One Sunday afternoon in November, after Haas had said mass at St. Ann's, he drove up to the (victims)xxxx's house and picked up young xxxx. Together, they made the long drive to Camp Marymount, a Catholic youth camp in northwest Williamson County. When a priest offered to take you for a drive, you didn't say no; you said, "Thanks, Father."

By the time they arrived at the vacant camp, the late afternoon sun was giving way to a cool, shadowy dusk, and the priest and boy sat on the steps of a cabin near the lake and talked. Another car sat parked at a nearby cabin. Its owner eventually walked up; he knew Haas, and the two talked for a few minutes. Then the man left. Haas was overseeing the fledgling wrestling program at Father Ryan, so when he brought up the topic, xxxxx thought nothing of it. The two talked about the art of wrestling—conversations about sports being a time-honored bonding ritual among males—and when his mentor suggested that the boy come inside so he could show him a few moves, it seemed perfectly normal: coach to wrestler, teacher to student, grownup to adolescent.

xxxx, in his letter, recounts what happened next: He suggested that we take our clothes off down to our underpants so we would not mess them up. He began demonstrating different moves and hold [sic] and our bodies were getting sweaty. He was showing me a hold when suddenly he penetrated me with his finger. He told me it was OK that's what the Greeks did when they wrestled in the Olympics. In fact he told me they wrestled in the nude and to get the true effects we should wrestle nude also. So we did. He told me that they grabbed anything they could get a hold of and not to be ashamed or embarrassed. That if I was going to be a good wrestler I had to learn to get used to that kind of contact. So I went along. Next thing I know he had grabbed my penis and was stroking me. I was shocked and embarrassed but it also felt good at the same time. I was confused. I felt this was wrong but I was with a priest. Father Hass [sic] said my reaction and erection was normal but if I was embarrassed he knew a way he could make it go away. So he began to perform oral sex on me. He then told me he had the same problem and asked that I help him out so we could continue.

After that, the two resumed wrestling. Haas told his young victim to assume a wrestling start position—kneeling with hands on the mat—and got behind him. "Before I knew it, he was in me and raping me," writes xxxx. "There was nothing but pain and horror and lots of tears and blood." "You know this is a sin," Haas said while raping him. "But God knows my needs, and he'll forgive us." xxxx, crying, could only ask "Why?" over and over and over again. "Because you're so handsome and good-looking," came the reply. "I love you."

Now before you get outraged at me for posting this, THINK, this is what an ordained SBC monster did to his son time after time for 12-18 months! We all need to get outraged.

You might say, "how can you futher put this boy through the shame he has already endured and I say what more could be done to him that his father has already done. There are other ministers out there as well as adult men who may hear our joined outrage and be notified that they WILL GO TO PRISON if we have anything to say!

OC, for this I was censored!

Charles Page
Collierville, Tennessee

gmommy said...

Wade has been kind enough to allow this discussion...
too many blogs have been controlled by his deflection from the issues...

oc said...

I sent you an email warning you about this guy, Wade. I'm telling you, it will just get sicker.


Anonymous said...

GMommy and Larry - thanks for the warnings. I apologize for trying to "reason" with an unreasonable man.

Sharon Rose

WatchingHISstory said...

OC, No more empty threats, I can finally rest at night!

The vision: I was walking my dog, Roscoe about 6AM and I was standing in the street in front of my house. It was Dec 06/Jan 07 I can't exactly recall. Suddenly I sensed the presence of God and a voice as a chair was shoved forward. "Sit here Adrian Rogers and watch as your Beloved Bellevue crumbles and is destroyed." It was an angry voice. It nearly took my breath and I said to myself "what is this all qabout?"

The knowledge was held from Dr Rogers and after he died the truth was made known and Dr Rogers had to sit there observing it all. I believe he is experiencing I Cor 3:1`2-15.


WatchingHISstory said...

"deflection from the issues..."

You mean this is not about the sodomy of a young boy by a SBC associate pastor at Bellevue. You actually think there is a more important issue. I don't think so!

WatchingHISstory said...

Sharon ask: "Perhaps you would be willing to stand up against men like Gilyard, and use your influence to help create a policy and/or structure regarding clergy sexual abuse for SBC churches. Do you have any ideas of how to constructively help?"

Yes, I do, Revolutionize Fundamental Christianity to denounce the moderatewd views of the falleness of man and return to the orthodoxy of the Christian faith. We need to come back to Total Depravity that our Fathers confessed. We need to believe that sinners are dead in trespasses and sins and that Regeneration is a necessity for faith and belief to occur. This mess of immorality is a product of moderated views of depravity.

oc said...

Alright blog.
I'm backing out of here, because this is this guy's modus operandi, to hijack a blog with his sickness.
He will pick a fight with one or more, and spew his filth in the process. I'm just trying to warn you in advance.

WatchingHISstory said...

me too, OC

off line

It's just like old times talking with you, OC
I've truly mised you and look forward to more exchanges without the empty threats.


oc said...


He will want to correspond with you. PLEASE DON'T.
It will be one of the biggest mistakes you have ever made.


Anonymous said...

Larry, warning heeded.

Sharon Rose

Anonymous said...

rl vaughn - re Texas law. You said, "I guess it becomes a legal question of whether there was sexual exploitation or mutual consensual immorality without exploitation."

It is my understanding that when a pastor takes advantage of a child or adult who is vulnerable, it is sexual exploitation. Even if a woman "asks" him for sex or "seduces" him, it is up to the pastor, because of his duty and power as a pastor, to refrain from having sex with her, and direct her to a higher moral standard. That's what the high calling of a pastor is. If he has sex with a woman, he is exploiting her. This is especially true if he is in any way counseling her. Because of his power and authority over her, he is solely responsible, just as in the case of child clergy sexual abuse.

Sharon Rose

David Brown said...

Brother Wade and others: Please ignore Charles Page regardless of how outraged you feel. Spend that rage in prayer. Mr. Page is a very sick and twisted pervert. He is no better than the rants he posts about. He will go along seeming fine and when he has seduced you, his filth and porn come out. I cannot tell you the number of times he has used my abuse story for his kicks. If you respond to him he will hijack this blog and you will be forced to turn on moderation. He has his own blog that no one comments on, he has to make comments to himself. And he is a coward, he prefers to pick on dead pastors. Please pray for him but do not get in an exchange.

Mr. Page I once again call on you to repent. In the Name of Jesus, pease turn to Jesus and Jesus alone, you don't need Calvin, Paul Williams or anyone else to be saved. Please repent before it is too late.

David Brown

Rex Ray said...

Charles Page,
Where is the Outrage?
That’s a good question. I believe you are somewhat like by 5 year-old-nephew, John. A book by my missionary uncle about China was a hot topic among the relatives. Not long afterwards, John’s SS teacher took her class outside. When class was nearly over, she said, “John, you usually have a lot to say, but you haven’t said a word today. What’s wrong?”

“The birds and the flowers, the birds and the flowers…they’re killing all the Christians in China and nobody cares!”

I suspect when something is too horrible, people don’t want to think or hear about it. I’m sure they never read certain parts of the Bible to people also.

A ‘gay’ bishop asked for comments on his blog, but he did not print mine as follows:

The only thing the Bible affirms about homosexuality is its sin against God. The gay bishop, Gene Robinson, is a fulfillment of the Bible:

“For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own DESIRES, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.” (2 Timothy 4:3)
“It takes only one wrong person among you to infect all the others.” (Galatians 5:9)

The bishop loves to quote Jesus in saying to love everyone, but Jesus DID NOT say to love their SIN. Therein is the stupidity of Robinson’s teachings.
It fulfills, “…there are people who are deliberately stupid, and always demand some unusual interpretation —they have twisted…” (2 Peter 3:16)

Robinson needs to look back with fear:
“He turned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into heaps of ashes and blotted them off the face of the earth, making them an example for all the ungodly in the FUTURE to look back upon and FEAR.” (2 Peter 2:6)

What is Robinson doing?
“God let them go ahead into every sort of sex sin…vile and sinful things with each other’s bodies…they deliberately chose to believe lies…their women indulged in sex sin with each other…and their men burned with lust for each other…” (Romans 1:24-27)

Will history repeat itself?
“There was homosexuality throughout the land, and the people of Judah became as depraved as the heathen nations…” (1 Kings 14:24)

Chapters 19 and 20 of Judges tell of a crime by homosexuals of Judah that resulted in the death of 65,000 men plus the tribe of Benjamin except 400 men, and another 25,000 families.

Robinson you may smile now, but the day will come when you will realize God’s laws will not be scorned.

Charles, you remind me of my father (my biggest hero), whose motto was to hit sin between the eyes every time it stuck its head up. As a school teacher, we moved from school to school every year.

Your blog brings out some good points, or should I say expose some bad practices.

Stay the course...your words do not always fall on deaf ears.

WatchingHISstory said...

Thanks for the encourging comments.

Good to hear from you again. It's been awhile. I look forward to more exchanges with you. Invite the crowd, tell everyone I said Hi!


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