"I went to Jerusalem to become acquainted (Gk. istoria) with Cephas" - Paul's words from Galatians 1:18.

An Irony: We Once Thought the Indians Savages

'The Trail of Tears' (1838-1839) culminated in the relocation of over 20,000 Cherokee Indians from Georgia, Tennessee, Alabama and North Carolina to Northeastern Oklahoma. Estimates are that 4,000 Cherokee men, women and children died during The Trail of Tears. Upon settling in Oklahoma at an area called Park Hill, just outside of the present day city of Tahlequah, Oklahoma, the Cherokee Indians began to rebuild their nation. Within a decade of arriving in Oklahoma, around the same time the Southern Baptist Convention was being formed, the Cherokee people - with the help of missionary Samuel Worcester who came with the Cherokees to Oklahoma - began to establish a system of education for the Cherokee men - and women.


The Cherokee Female Seminary



In 1851 the Cherokees at Park Hill began a seminary for women, with rigorous curriculum, patterned after that of Mount Holyoke Female Seminary in Massachusetts. The seminary offered no instruction in Cherokee language or culture, but was open only to full- and mixed-blood Cherokee girls. The school was in operation until 1909 and approximately 3,000 girls attended. These women and their educational experiences greatly influenced the Cherokee Nation and the lives of their descendants. Students at the Cherokee Female Seminary took courses in Greek, Hebrew, Latin, political economy, literary criticism, theology, philosophy and other advanced academic courses. Pupils staged dramatic productions, held music recitals and published their own newsletter. The seminary building was eventually destroyed by fire, but three original columns from the building mark the entrance into the modern Cherokee Heritage Center.

The first woman to receive her Ph.D. in the United States of America, Miss Sarah Worcester, was a descendent of the founder of the Cherokee Female Seminary. Wilma Mankiller, the female Chief of the Cherokee Nation in the 1980's said this about the Cherokee Female Seminary . . .

"The Cherokee Female Seminary was among the first educational systems built west of the Mississippi - Indian or non-Indian. In fact, for a period of time during the mid-nineteenth century, the Cherokee population was more literate than the neighboring non-Indian population”

The Cherokees were so successful in educating Cherokee women through the Cherokee Female Seminary that some of the more traditional Cherokee men began to complain that the women were no longer suited for domestic chores. Eventually, the traditionalists were overruled and the Cherokee Female Seminary was folded into the Cherokee Men's Seminary which had been established in Tahlequah, Oklahoma and the combined schools became what we know today as Northeastern State University, one of oldest institutions of higher learning west of the Mississippi, and still the university with the highest concentration of Indian students in the United States.

Highly educated and theologically minded women in the United States is not a new phenomenon. In fact, it is interesting to compare the manner in which Southern Baptist women are treated in one of our seminaries today versus the vigorous rigors of academic training of Cherokee Indian women in 1851. Paul Littleton directed my attention to the following recent testimonial of a Southwestern Seminary student's wife.

“We have been out of Southwestern Seminary for a little over two years now. While we were there we saw many good things happen and met many good people. One of the things that I attempted while we were their, was to be a part of their Seminary Wives “club”. I was immediately turned off when I sat on the first night of the meetings and heard all that would happen in the upcoming semester. First, Dorothy Patterson wanted us seminary wives to pay and enroll as students in order to come to these meetings. Why you ask??? Because the more “students” that are enrolled, the better they (SWBTS) look to the Southern Baptist Convention. So here we all sat in this large room listening to Mrs. Patterson talk about how expensive it was to turn on lights in a building and how we should all be ashamed of ourselves if we decided to “audit” this “class” and not register for it because THAT wouldn’t help this seminary. The meeting went on to talk about topics that would be discussed over the next semester. They ranged from 'Taking Care of Your Home,' to 'Taking Care of Your Husband.' Both could be valuable things to hear someone speak on. Except 'Taking Care of Your Home' was about making your house perfect “looking” and being able to pour tea correctly, and 'Taking Care of Your Husband' was about ironing his handkerchief and packing his suit case correctly. Needless to say I was shocked.

In a day when some Southern Baptists seem to believe it is wrong to educate women in the classics, the languages, or Biblical theology - not to mention to employ women in teaching these subjects - it might be well for us all to remember the example of those evangelical, conservative Christian Indians who have gone before us.

No doubt there will be opposition by some when there they see an increasing number of theologically minded women in the Southern Baptist Convention or female Hebrew, Greek and theology professors given positions at Southern Baptist seminaries. A few might even wish to destroy the ministerial reputatation and careers of those Southern Baptists who affirm women in the highest of academic roles within the SBC. But, the negative reaction of some should never negate the positive results of what is accomplished through an intellectual and theologically minded populace of Southern Baptist females.

Davy Crockett was severely persecuted for standing up for the Cherokee people before Congress in the 1830's at Washington, D.C. Crockett's own political career was destroyed because he supported the Cherokees when everyone else wanted them out of sight and out of mind. Davy Crockett left Washington D. C. and eventually made his way west to Texas where he became a frontier hero and died at the Alamo. But before Crockett left the nation's capital he made a statement regarding his strong stand for the oppressed Cherokee Indians - a statement that is as appropriate today regarding women in Southern Baptist academia as it was in Crockett's day regarding the Cherokee people:

"I would sooner be honestly damned than hypocritically immortalized"

This Sooner couldn't agree more.

In His Grace,

Wade Burleson

72 comments:

Bill Scott said...

Wade,
I am just an Okie from somewhere south of Muskogee. I have been blessed by your historical posts this week. I am proud not only of my state but also it's history.

By contrast I am shocked to see how our convention has drifted in a direction that is in conflict with our heritage.

This post also shows how MISSIONS do impact and change the world for eternity. Educating Cherokee women in seminary did not erase the Cherokee culture but enhanced it and no doubt preserved it.

Wade Burleson said...

Anonymous,

Thanks for the heads up. The actions taken for the oppressed Cherokees and the famous quote were, of course, from Davy Crockett. Typing from memory will sometimes get one in trouble!

Darby Livingston said...

God obviously created man male and female. There are obvious differences, and obvious similarities. One similarity is the intellect. Even though I think men and women are called to different roles, I think men and women should be educated - particularly in biblical studies. If our heavenly state is directly linked to the growth in grace achieved in this present evil age, how cruel to stunt the growth of women by sectioning off whole swaths of study that would lead to growth in grace. We need eager learners, both male and female.

volfan007 said...

davy crockett was a great man in history who stood for a great cause...in more than one situation.

i live near where he lived before going to texas. in fact, some of his ancestors are members of my church.

but, i've also known some people who courageously stood for bad causes....for wrong causes.

david

Blackhaw said...

Wade,

Isn't the "Seminary wives club" for the wives of students? Meaning that the wives are not the students themselves. And does not SWBTS admit women even into their theology school? So a woman can be educated in the classics and theology at SWBTS but the Seminary wives club might not be the place for that. Whether the "Seminay wives club" is a good group or not is not what I am trying to state. What I am pointing out is that the "Seminary wives club" is not the place for the education in classics and such. So I do not think your post withstands scrutiny.

It was interesting to hear about the indian school. Do know why it was just for women? Were they like us today where the women are becoming more and more educated and the men are becoming less and less?

OH and BTW and I am for women Church History and Hebrew professors. I had Dr. Bullock for church history and she was a great person and teacher.

Wade Burleson said...

Blackhaw,

We have much in common. We both believe that females may teach Hebrew, Greek, history, theology and other classical subjects. Our view is considered 'unbiblical' by some in the SBC.

I believe this low view of women, which is held by some in SBC leadership, needs to be challenged directly and persistently. If not, Southern Baptists might one day be duped into believing it is normal -and heaven forbid, biblical.

Wes Kenney said...

Wade,

You say in your post, "In a day when some Southern Baptists seem to believe it is wrong to educate women in the classics, the languages, or Biblical theology..."

I wonder if you could perhaps name one such Southern Baptist?

Wade Burleson said...

Wesley,

You ask, "I wonder if you could perhaps name one such Southern Baptist" who believes it is wrong to educate women in the classics?

Paige Patterson.

When the Southern Baptist Convention educates scholars like Sheri Kluoda nnd Karen Bullock in the Hebrew languages, theology, Christian history, and other classics . . .

When those two ladies earn the highest grades and accolades for their work among Southern Baptists in their respective areas of expertise . . .

When both ladies are hired by a Southern Baptist seminary to teach men the languages, history, theology, etc . . .

And when the new President of that Southern Baptist seminary, Paige Patterson, takes action to remove them from the faculty because 'they are women in positions reserved for men,' then you have a warped view of women in the minds of some in SBC leadership roles.

There are others who feel the same as Patterson. Should I include your name as well?

Please don't respond, 'But there is nothing wrong with Sheri Klouda and Karen Bullock being 'educated' in the classics -- it's wrong for them to teach!'

What does a person with a doctorate in Hebrew do? Bake cookies?

volfan007 said...

maybe they study the bible?

wade, i also find it interesting that you are saying that it's ok for women to teach men theology as well as biblical languages. have you always believed this?

david

Darby Livingston said...

"What does a person with a doctorate in Hebrew do? Bake cookies?"

Yeah, made out of unleavened bread, with neat little Hebrew markings etched in the top.

Emily Hunter McGowin said...

David (volfan007),

Do you really think that women who teach biblical languages, church history, or other subjects in a seminary are never going to teach theology or theological matters?

When she's asked for counsel as a teacher on a personal matter, should she decline for fear she might teach something theological? Do the men who mistakenly learn theology from her sin by so doing? When she prays before class and the men learn something from her prayers, has she sinned?

I'm not clear on your specific position on this issue, but I think if you are saying that women can teach anything but theology, your position is quite unworkable in "real life."

By the way, while its possible that some highly motivated women with serious financial means would go through all the time and effort (usually six years of full-time research and writing) in order to acquire a Ph.D. and then do nothing more than "study the Bible" without aspiring to a teaching position. But, I have serious doubts about that. The primary reason to acquire such higher education is to have the credentials to teach. If we really believe women should not do so (in whatever areas), then we should be consistent and stop enrolling women in our seminary Ph.D. programs and stop issuing graduate degrees to women who aspire to doctoral work.

Grace and peace, David,

Emily

Wade Burleson said...

Wes,

Please use your site to post comments that do not pertain to my post. Thanks.

Scott said...

Emily & Wade,

In the interest of full disclosure, I hold to a complementarian view with regard to gender in the church. Your comments regarding women with PhD's rings hollow.

Just because someone has a PhD doesn't make it acceptable or biblical for them to teach in every possible setting in the church.

Perhaps I missed this on earlier posts but do you think it is acceptable/biblical for women to be pastors, even senior pastors, or if you like for women to teach men on a regular basis in Adult Bible Fellowships or Sunday School classes?

Scott

volfan007 said...

emily,

in the seminary that i attended, women did not teach church history, biblical languages, nor theology. i did have a lady teach us english. we had to be able to pass an english profiency test before moving onto biblical languages. i also had a lady teach us how to lead music...in case we found ourselves without a song leader, which has happened in the past in my ministry, btw.

emily, i just try to hold to the scriptures which teach us clearly that a woman should not teach a man the bible in an authoritative position...such as the teacher of a class, or the pastor of a church. women should teach children and younger women...yes. alas, i know that you dont agree with that...so be it.

emily, a woman teaching a class of men theology is not God's design. it shows a real weakness in that church for this to be...a real spiritual weakness amongst the men of that church for this to happen. just as it would show a real weakness in a man who is submissive to his wife...where she wears the pants in the family, shall we say. it's not the way God wants it to be.


wade, have you always believed that a woman can teach a man theology? and, do you believe that woman can be a pastor?

david

Emily Hunter McGowin said...

Scott,

So as not to distract too much from Wade's post, I'm not going to get into women's teaching roles in the church.

I think the issue at hand is one of women teaching men in seminaries or institutions of Christian higher education. I believe women should be permitted to do so in any subject. And, if we are not going to permit women to do so, we should stop training them to do so.

Grace and peace,

Emily

Darby Livingston said...

Whatever our view of roles, I doubt that Priscilla taught Apollos how to bake cookies, while Aquila taught theology. The text says, "they took him and explained to him the way of God more accurately." I'm a complimentarian, but goodness sakes, I've learned a lot by being the husband of an intellectually gifted wife. So have other men in our church. And she bakes good cookies, and even calls me baby!

Emily Hunter McGowin said...

David,

I am quite content with your understanding of the Bible, even though I do not agree with it. What I am comment concerned was the application of your understanding. I think your application is unmerited by the text, even from a strict complimentarian viewpoint, and unworkable (even nonsensical) in real life.

Content to agree to disagree,

Emily

Wade Burleson said...

Scott,

Since when is a seminary a church?

Emily Hunter McGowin said...

Obviously, my hands didn't cooperate with my brain in that last comment. My second sentence should read: "What I am concerned about is the application of your understanding." Sorry!

Wes Kenney said...

Wade,

I fail to see how my comment which you removed does not pertain to this post.

You stated that there are "some Southern Baptists" who do not believe that women should be taught classics, languages, or theology, and I simply asked who those Southern Baptists are.

Those who do not believe women should be employed to teach theology to future pastors have self-identified. But you stated that "some" don't believe that women should even be taught such.

Unless you can name someone who believes that way, we are left to assume this is simply a straw man argument.

Wade Burleson said...

David,

Theology is 'the knowledge of God.'

Of course I believe a woman can teach any man the knowledge of God (boy, teenage boy, young man, man, senior adult man, etc . . .).

Your phrase 'position of authority' is simply wierd.

David, was you mother 'an authority' in your life and did she teach you the knowledge of God?

Were you ever taught by a Sunday School teacher who was a woman and did she teach you 'the knowledge of God?'

Had you had Dr. Klouda for Hebrew or Dr. Bullock for Church History, would they have taught you any 'knowledge of God?'

I have absolutely no clue what you are saying. Seriously. I sometimes wonder if you and I communicate like foreigners with different languages.

Of course I have always believed a woman can teach a man about God -- the Bible commends both Priscilla and Aquila for doing that very thign, I've experienced it, and anyone who says it can happen is speaking a language with which I am unfamiliar.

You ask me the question, "Do you believe a woman can be a pastor?" Again, I don't understand you. 'Can' is a word of ability. There are hundreds of women pastors so, yes, women 'can' pastor. 'Should' is a word of morality. I think you meant 'should' a woman be a pastor in a Southern Baptist Church?

I have already answered that question. Though I believe that question 'should' be answered by the local church and no other (since the local church is the highest authority), and though I think it is silly to put a prohibition for women pastors in a major doctrinal confession, and though I would cooperate without hesitation with any church who had a woman as pastor if they held to the essentials of the Christian faith - I have repeatedly and publicly said that I would never lead my church to call a woman pastor for confessional, practical and cultural reasons.

Wade Burleson said...

Wes,

You can be left to assume anything you desire. I stand by what I write.

Wes Kenney said...

Wade,

"...I stand by what I write."

That is precisely my point. Unless you can name some Southern Baptists who believe women should not be taught classics, languages, or theology, then you are manifestly not standing by what you write.

Wade Burleson said...

Wes,

I'm not sure that you have been trained in logic, so please allow a short lesson.

When you offer Ph.D. programs for women in Hebrew, Greek, Theology, etc . . . you are by your very actions stating that a women can teach men those subjects.

To remove women from faculty positions - the very women that your very own seminary awarded Ph.D.'s - because you believe they are in positions 'reserved for men' is to logically state 'post de facto' (after the fact) that it was a mistake to have trained these women in Hebrew, Greek, Church History, etc . . .

So what is the answer? You 'correct the mistake' of the trustees (without them knowing) and you begin a 'Homemaking Program' that shows the proper place of women.

That, Wesley, is why I 'manifestly stand by what I write.'

:)

Wes Kenney said...

Wade,

Thanks for the lesson. I always want to learn all I can.

Even more basic logic makes me wonder why you would assert that "some Southern Baptists seem to believe it is wrong to educate women in the classics, the languages, or Biblical theology" when the humanities degree with the concentration in homemaking requires women to take classes in either Latin or Greek, as well as classes in theology, in order to graduate.

Again, who are these Southern Baptists who don't believe women should be taught these things, and where are their expressions of outrage against this program?

Scott said...

Emily & Wade,

Of course a seminary is not a church. My mistake. In fact, I don't have a problem with women instructing men in a seminary setting. The church is an entirely different matter, in my opinion.

So let me make sure I understand what you are saying:

1. SBTS allows women to attend the seminary and earn doctrate degrees in biblical languages, theology, etc.

2. Therefore, SBTS should have no problem with women professors teaching these subjects.

Is that what you are saying?

Scott said...

That should have been SWBTS.

Emily Hunter McGowin said...

Scott,

I can't speak for Wade, but you've caught my point exactly. If you're going to institutionalize strict complementarianiam, at least do so consistently.

Grace and peace,

Emily

Emily Hunter McGowin said...

That should be, "complementarianism." Sorry again!

NativeVermonter said...

"I'm not sure that you have been trained in logic, so please allow a short lesson."

Would that be before or after the short lesson on manners?

volfan007 said...

wade,

to say that my position of a woman not being in a position of authority in teaching men the bible is "weird" is also calling some great theologians "weird." i believe i can show you many who would also say that a woman should not have a position of authority over a man in teaching the bible. john gill comes to mind. john calvin comes to mind. john mcarthur comes to mind. j. vernon mcgee and h.a. ironside comes to mind. there are others.

also, my mom did teach me the bible....when i was a child, as did timothy's mom and grandmom when he was a child. i now help my mother understand scriptures. she calls me often to ask about different passages of the bible. i have never said that there was anything wrong, from the bible, in a mother teaching her children, nor in a woman teaching other women.

also, aquilla and priscilla took apollos aside to teach him more. notice that priscilla did not stand up and start teaching men the bible in a classroom, nor in the synagogue, nor in the assembly of believers. they took him aside and helped him understand the bible. fine. great.

i would have no problem with emily and wes and me and my wife all sitting down to discuss the bible. and, emily could share with us all that she knows about the scriptures... fine. wonderful. in fact, we do this often in my family as we sit around the table and talk about the bible. i really cant see what's so hard for people to see the difference in a woman being the authority in the room as a teacher, and people simply sitting around talking about the bible. there's a huge difference. but alas, some just dont seem to get it.

but wade, when you talk about a woman being a pastor, then i think you enter into an area where it's even more clear that only men should be pastors. i'm glad that the bfm2k makes this clear.

david

Wade Burleson said...

Scott,

Couldn't have said it better myself.

:)

Wade Burleson said...

Robin,

Please stay on topic. I know you will understand.

Wade Burleson said...

David Volfann,

We are discussing a seminary -- not a CHURCH.

That is unless you think a seminary IS a CHURCH - as it seems some do.

Wade Burleson said...

Wes,

You are speaking of a Humanities Degree with a concentration in homemaking where people learn to sew and cook.

I am speaking of a Doctorate in Philisophy with a concentration in Hebrew where people learn to teach the Bible in the original language.

I'll bet you a catfish dinner at that nice little restaurant near the Red River by your church that Dr. Patterson desires the former, but not the latter.

Of course Paige Patterson desires women in his Humanities Degree. It's another thing to desire women in the Ph.D. program with the possibility of the outstanding female students teaching men.

You are on the Titanic Wes. Bail while there is still a lifeboat. :)

Scott said...

Emily & Wade,

Thanks for clarifying that point. It seems to me there are at least three explanations why SWBTS will allow women to graduate from theological PhD programs, yet not teach in the same programs.

1. Money - they want the additional tuition revenue.

2. Like each of us they are just inconsistent in their practice.

3. They think there are other options for female PhD graduates beside seminary professor.

Scott

Anonymous said...

Darby Livingstone. Pricilla & Aquila-----key "they"

Les Puryear said...

Wade,

The "Seminary Wives Club" did not originate with Dr. Patterson at SWBTS. When I was there in the late 90's (that's 1990s, not 1890s), Dr. Hemphill was there and they tried to do something similar.

My wife was invited to a series of meetings on campus for "seminary wives." She thought it was going to be a support group for pastor's wives or something like that. She went to two meetings before she stopped going. Her complaint was that they were trying to teach the ladies how to cook, clean, sew, and entertain. She figured after thirty years of marriage (at that time) that she already knew how to do those things. :)

Regards,

Les

Darby Livingston said...

Les,
But can your wife bake unleavened cookies with Hebrew symbols etched in the tops? You know, Baptist cookies?

Wes Kenney said...

Wade,

Thanks again for the response. I'm not sure, however, what it has to do with my question. All I have asked is for an example of a Southern Baptist who believes that "it is wrong to educate women in the classics, the languages, or Biblical theology."

Since you have asserted that they exist, I would expect that you could either provide an example or remove the assertion.

Debbie Kaufman said...

Wes: He gave you one. I could give more if you would like. What good does it do to teach these things to women and then limit their use of it? That is what you are doing.

Wes: Would you say that you would not be allowed in the kitchen to cook or in the laundry room to do your laundry because that is not your place and there is no scriptural evidence that men washed clothes nor were in a kitchen cooking? I think you know what Wade is saying, but thought I would be blunter since that is what you require.

Wes Kenney said...

Debbie,

I don't require anything whatsoever. I would like to have a straightforward answer to the question. Who are the Southern Baptists who believe it is wrong for women to be taught theology, classics, and languages?

It doesn't seem like a very complicated question, but getting it answered is proving to be quite a task.

Debbie Kaufman said...

Wes: Wade answered you twice with Paige Patterson. I will answer that a third time with Paige Patterson. I don't know how much more straight forward you want it without getting rude.

Wes Kenney said...

To answer with "Paige Patterson" is patently ridiculous. The program of which everyone is making fun requires women to study either Latin or Greek, as well as theology. So to assert that Dr. Patterson believes it to be wrong to teach women these things is demonstrably false.

Anyone else?

Anonymous said...

Debbie: you needn't worry about getting rude. You already were.

Debbie Kaufman said...

Anonymous: You sign your name and then we can converse.

Wes: For sake of argument let's say you are correct, that's pretty null and void if a woman is not able to use what she has learned.

Scott Gordon said...

Wade et al.,

Let me jump aboard the Titanic with Wes. I have perused all the comments here and find a failure to communicate. You, Wade, have made your assertion of Dr. Patterson in response to Wes' question of a SB who thinks women should not be taught classics, languages or biblical theology. You have beaten that horse to death. Do you have any other live options. I understand your point, though I do not concede it. You do however claim to know many (plural) Southern Baptists (plural). Dr. Patterson may be a big man, but unless you are willing to grant him the plural of majesty distinction, could you possibly provide a second example? Is there someone who objects to women (in general) who would be taught the rest of the degree core for the homemaking emphasis (in which the same classics and theology would be taught)? Are you allowed a blanket statement in general without corroborating evidence? Are "many" SB really "Paige Patterson"?

Wade Burleson said...

Anonymous,

Debbie Kaufman, a woman, has more courage in her pinkie than you do in your whole body.

Sign your name.

Wade Burleson said...

Scott,

All righty then. According to you every single Southern Baptist believes that both men and woman should be educated to the fullest extent in Greek, Hebrew, theology, etc . . . and that the finest scholars in our Ph.D. programs, regardless of gender, should be hired by our seminaries as professors to continue the fine scholarly tradition of our institutions.

I'm glad to know you believe this to be true.

But of course, the truth is there are some Southern Baptists who believe the woman's rightful place is in the home, and the modern view of women is ant-biblical - thus, the SBC should start a homemaking degree in our seminary institutions in order to put women in their rightful place. Oh, and by the way, let's act like we think they should learn Greek, but heaven forbid they ever use it to actually do what you learn Greek to do -- teach the Bible to men and women.

Take a deep breath Scott. You're going down the Titanic with Wes. :)

Scott Gordon said...

Hey, the water's cool out here. And I can see Dr. Patterson, Dr. Mohler, Rev. Kenney, CJ Mahaney, Ligon Duncan, Dr. Piper...it's a complementarian convention out here. Did somebody sign me up for the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood Convention? It...s...s..oo...*blurb*...*blub, blub, blub*...

Scott Gordon said...

Alas...

Wade and all the others woke up from the diversionary dream to find all those going down with the Titanic to still be alive and well. Whatever will become of this discussion when we run out of cute little diversions like this?

Anonymous said...

Wade,

Wes Asked:

"I wonder if you could perhaps name one such Southern Baptist" who believes it is wrong to educate women in the classics?"

You Said "Paige Patterson."

Perhaps you should visit http://www.swbts.edu/index.cfm?pageid=676

Here you'll find an education that includes both languages and theology for WOMEN (gasp)!.

So, what was it you were saying about Patterson? He believes it is wrong to educate women in the classics? At least that what it appears you're saying to answer Wes.

Maybe you could clear things up.

DWMIII

Darby Livingston said...

I wonder if Wade is challenging the logic in expecting a woman to go into debt paying for an education (particularly PhD) that has limited application in real life. People don't go to seminaries to learn. They go to seminaries to learn to teach. That's why they exist. So to say they can't teach when they get through it all is similar to saying any woman can go through the rigors of astronaut training, but is never permitted in space. Would that truly be a pro-woman space program? I'm writing this as an admitted complementarian who has learned much from women, and desires to see both sides.

Bob Cleveland said...

Maybe I'm too simplistic or something but I don't understand some things.

A) Women can study theology and Greek, Hebrew, etc. at SWBTS (and, presumably, others).
B) Women cannot teach men.
C) Women cannot be pastors.
D) Women who study Greek and Hebrew and theology thus seem consigned to teaching those things to children, or teaching those things to other women who can only teach children and other women ...

I must be missing something.

volfan007 said...

bob,

the bible.

david

Anonymous said...

Scott and Dmwii

The problem as I see it is that women at SWBTS are being shuffled off to the womens ministry concentration, and as a result are marginalized by the convention that raised them.

Bullock and Klouda were forced out, not because they were bad teachers - as many have said on this site and others, they were two of the best as judged by students and peers alike. Other women proffs have left from the school of education, not because they were forced out, but simply because they did not feel support from the administration and becasue of what had happened to thier collegues.

The convention spends thousands of dollars to educate these fine ladies, who are called by God to teach at the college or seminary level. Not only was it wrong to force out Bullock and Klouda for no reason other than thier gender, it is bad stewardship.

We are forcing some of our best and brightest to other seminaries and other demoninations.

As has also been stated here, these are not ladies who are training to be pastors, but are training to be teachers. In my mind the first recorded female seminary proff was Priscilla - one has to go through some pretty interesting mental gymnastics to think that she did not teach Appolos in areas of theology.

Fortunately Bullock and Klouda have found seminaries that will love and appreciate them, too bad the men and women of SWBTS are denied the pleasure.

Jim Champion

Bob Cleveland said...

Volfan:

Yeah, I miss that a lot. But I am happy that you seem to acknowledge I at least have the non-bible facts straight.

I'll leave it to others to discern what the bible says about women in ministry, but in the meantime I'll go on hiding behind CB Scott.

Anonymous said...

Jim,

That is just not true. The women are not forced into the "women's" degrees, and never have been. There are plenty of degrees that they can go into. The women CHOOSE to go into the women's degrees.

DWMIII

Anonymous said...

If the issue is whether or not there are Southern Baptist leaders--i.e., seminary, mission board, or E.C. presidents--who are opposed to higher education for women, I will have to let others speak and argue it out. If the issue is if there are Southern Baptists in good standing in Southern Baptist churches who are opposed to higher education for women, I can tell you--there ARE such people. In the past 20 years I have had the (privledge ?) (distinction ?) of pastoring several of them. One senior man in my current church, in a Washington DC suburb, holds that opinion. The ladies in his Sunday School class jumped him merciless about it I understand, but it is his opinion that women belong in the home, baking cookies and caring for children, period, end of paragraph. Whether or not Dr. Patterson is one of them (functionally or literally), there definitely ARE such Southern Baptists. And without exception, those I have known have supported Dr. Patterson wholeheartedly, because (rightly or wrongly) they see in him a kindred spirit.

John Fariss

Anonymous said...

DWMII

I proobably overstated - forced may have not been the correct word - strongly encouraged, or very strongly encouraged is more like it.

Once again though I will ask - is it good stewardship on behalf of the SBC to allow women to earn PhDs if they are not going to be able to use them in an academic setting - or are the trustees setting themselves up for "mistakes" again?

Anonymous said...

Oops - forgot to sign my name to the previous post - I know Wade strongly encourages signatures!

JIm Champion

Monte said...

Bob,

I'll take your wisdom over others' narrow interpretations and legalism any 'ole day.

Wayne Smith said...

Bob,
IMHO you are as Safe as anyone who can stand to be corrected by a Brother(CB SCOTT) in Christ. But number one you are covered by the Blood of the Lamb Jesus Christ.

In His Name
Wayne Smith

Jack said...

“The advance of feminism and the marginalization of men are beginning to manifest in unexpected places. Several articles have appeared recently focusing on the American University. The prestigious Chronicle of Higher Education in its January 26, 2007, edition ran a story on “The New Gender Divide.” Nearly sixty percent of college and university students in America are now female.

One can rejoice in this availability of education for the fairer sex without missing the obvious: In a few years men will be increasingly underrepresented in the intelligentsia and will gradually cede leadership in many areas to women. And most of these women ascending to these new roles will maintain a major focus on a career and not on the family and children.”

-Paige Patterson
Speech to the World Congress on Families
Warsaw, Poland
May 13, 2007

Bob Cleveland said...

Okay, okay, OKAY! Somebody has to say it, so I will step up and let everyone else off the hook: the men who started the seminary and/or allowed the early Cherokee women to attend seminary were NOT savage people.

They were BRAVE people.

Debbie Kaufman said...

Thank you Jack for finding and posting that statement. That statement says it all.

JayLee said...

I can't tell you names of those who believe women should not receive a theological education but I can tell you that at least one seminary (Mid-America, Memphis) will not allow women to major in theology because that is "training for pastors" and as women can't be pastors....(David, weren't you graduated from Mid-America?)

So, there are people running such institutions who believe that women should not be educated in such a way or there would not be the restriction. They seem unable to accept that God has gifted women with both the intelligence and the heart to learn more of Him. We must use the talents He has given. It is a terrible thing to hide your talent in the dirt.

Remember, Jesus taught women. He overstepped cultural barriers to instruct women in the things of His Father. He even rebuked Martha for fretting over housekeeping chores when the Master was teaching in their house. Mary Magdalene could have exclaimed "Master" or "Saviour" or "Lord" when she saw Jesus alive in the garden. Instead she cried out "Rabboni"---TEACHER. What a term of affection for a beloved Teacher from someone the culture had deemed unworthy of educating.

JayLee

Anonymous said...

Jim,

The truth is that not everyone who gets a Ph.D. goes into teaching—male or female.

There are women who are getting Ph.Ds who teach in seminaries. Just look at SWBTS website for an example. :)

DWMIII

Anonymous said...

Jim,

Just to let you I'm not upset with you. I don't know you and I hope that my tone on the blog doesn't come off in a bad way. I'm just turse when I write.

Thanks,

DWM III

Anonymous said...

DWMII

I have seen your comments in blogs for months - have never felt that you have been upset with anyone - including me.

do you know very many folks who get a PhD whose goal is not to teach? I am sure there are some - I havent met them myself :)

Check back with me when you find one of the ladies at SWBTS anywhere but the school of education or music.

volfan007 said...

jaylee,

i am a graduate of mid-america baptist theological seminary.

david

Scott Gordon said...

David,

I knew there was something else I liked about you!

MABTS '96

To All the World for Jesus' Sake...

SOLA GRATIA!