"I went to Jerusalem to become acquainted (Gk. istoria) with Cephas" - Paul's words from Galatians 1:18.

Why Our Convention Needs the Holy Spirit

Lifeway has come out with a remarkable research document on the opinions of Southern Baptist pastors regarding the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Dr. Ed Stetzer of Lifeway is one of the men who helped facilitate and coordinate the research. Dr. Stetzer has two earned doctorate degrees. One of his dissertions emphasized research in the social sciences, where Ed relied heavily on both the use and language of statistical analysis. He is a brilliant educator and a professional researcher. Southern Baptists are blessed to have him as an employee of Lifeway.

Two things have deeply disappointed me today in the reaction to the Lifeway report. First, an employee of Southwestern Seminary, Dr. Malcolm Yarnell, has come out with an article criticizing Lifeway's research. I am not bothered by Dr. Yarnell's article of criticism, but rather I am stunned at the hypocrisy of SWBTS publicly and officially censuring trustee Dwight McKissic for allegedly criticizing the International Mission Board, while standing by silently as Dr. Yarnell criticizes Lifeway. If you are going to publicly state that no 'employee or trustee of Southwestern is going to criticize a sister SBC agency,' as President Patterson stated when censuring Dwight, then he better be true to his word and censure Malcolm

Or . ..

I personally believe that both Dwight and Malcolm should be free to speak their minds -- as Baptists have historically been able to do -- and I would do all I could to protect their rights to criticize Lifeway and/or the IMB. Only tyrants and dictators stifle dissent (check out Venezuala), but real Baptists champion free and full dissent.

Therefore, Dwight McKissic is owed an apology. The reason we need the Holy Spirit in our convention is only the Spirit will enable God's people to be humble and apologize when a wrong has been perpetrated.

Second, we need the Holy Spirit to transform the hearts of us as pastors. Pastor Jeremy Green of First Baptist Church, Joshua, Texas wrote this comment on Bart Barber's blog about Lifeway's professional researcher, Dr. Ed Stetzer . . .

" . . .it certainly appears that Ed Stetzer is too busy speaking at conferences where the attendees are beer drinking, tongue speaking, potty mouth church planters to properly conduct research"

I cannot believe that those types of things could be written by a Southern Baptist minister of the gospel about one of his fellow Southern Baptists, especially an employee of our convention. Dr. Stetzer is fulfilling both his duty and his calling with Lifeway. Just because a young, inexperienced pastor like Jeremy learns that what he has championed on his blog for the past year cannot be supported by official research, that does not give him either the right or the excuse to personally attack the researcher. Unless and until the Holy Spirit gets a hold of our hearts as pastors in the SBC we are in trouble.


In His Grace,


Wade Burleson

103 comments:

irreverend fox said...

amen Wade! please don't let this issue rest until something, one way or the other, is done. I'd hate to think any inconsistency would be a reflection of a racial bias.

Debbie said...

It's also another reason why I think the resolution you have presented is so important.

Anonymous said...

Wade,

I agree the SBC needs the Holy Spirit.

However, to come at it from a slightly different angle, the SBC needs to have what Chas F. Leek called, in 1898 in the Biblical Recorder, "the Southern Baptist EVANGELICAL and missionary spirit..." (emphasis mine)

However, maybe it's that the SBC, as a whole, has this spirit now and will reflect it in San Antonio.

Benji

davidinflorida said...

Pastor Wade,

I agree , you can`t get too much of the Holy Spirit, it`s impossible.

By the way, Jeremy Green stated on Bart`s blog on Wednesday that "perhaps I`ll have to host my own Conference on the Holy Spirit where we will expose ecstatic utterances for what they really are...unscriptural gibberish!"

What a great statement about the Holy Spirit.

Jack Maddox said...

IF

A racial bias????? What on earth are you referring to...the fact that Dwight is a black man? What a tired, tired supposition.

Wade

I would agree that Jeremy's comments are harsh and perhaps even wrong. I do not know Jeremy. But you know Ben...and you continue to side step, take up for, coddle to and affirm his unchristlike words and demeanor. It is beyond me how you can do so...and by doing so it is my humble opinion that you bring harm to your own cause by the inconsistency of your calling folks (and rightly so) to task for ungodly and hurtful comments.

I am sorry to say at times it is very confusing.

I know, I know...you are not here to speak for Ben, Ben can answer for himself...it is not your task to monitor Ben...at least Ben is not talking behind peoples back...whatever...

Ben has cursed, used cursing, called people fat, questioned their intelligence, shared private information, made allegations of racism, compared folks to Nazi's...it goes on and on...

How refreshing it would be and how affirming to this post if you would simply say that if it is good for the goose it is good for the gander.

I will not hold my breath.

Jack

Winning Truth w/Tim Guthrie said...

Wade,
I have raised the same issue with you that Jack has raised and I once again do so. How can you continue to call into question those you disagree with and yet do not do the same with Ben whom you do agree with?

I ask this in love.

Wade Burleson said...

Jack and Tim,

Raise your issue with Ben or be specific. This post deals with the specifics of Jeremy Green. Would I write the way Ben does? No, but unlike Jeremy there is often a great deal of substance to Ben's post and not infinite ad hominem attacks.

irreverend fox said...

If SWBTS does not respond in the way they did with brother Dwight I think asking if the distinction between the two issues is a racial is on the table. It’s a fair question.

Let’s pray that this is a non-issue and SWBTS is already working on a proper reaction proving their fair dealing with all their staff regardless of race or gender.

I for one assume that this issue will be dealt with in a satisfactory fashion...I expect the best from SWBTS.

Charles R. said...

Wow, Benji!

It's too bad Holy Spirit of God is inadequate -- we have to have the Southern Baptist EVANGELICAL and missionary spirit instead. Hmmmm. As Mr. Rogers might ask the neighborhood, "Children, can you say 'blasphemy'?

Winning Truth w/Tim Guthrie said...

Wade,
Can you really not see the double standard being applied? You attack Jeremy for his comment yet refuse to do the same for Ben when he uses vulgarity and more (see Jacks list).

The respect for your point of view and denial of political activity would be grow should you finally admit that attacking Jeremy and not doing the same to Ben is indeed political at best. Maybe this is "tough love" and maybe this is what we all need. But I do know, to attack Jeremy and refrain and excuse for not doing the same with Ben is starting to show big.

Wade Burleson said...

Mr. Tim,

It is not an attack of Jeremy to say I am ashamed of his words regarding Ed Stetzer.

joerstewart said...

Ben is the king of ad hominem attacks. That's poor logic and a definite double standard.

Winning Truth w/Tim Guthrie said...

Wade,
How do Jeremy's words of Dr S differ from Ben's of Dr. P? In fact, Ben is now calling for Dr. Yarnell to be fired????? Is this so hard to see?

Disagreeing and debating is one thing. Calling people down under the guise of spiritual discernment while not doing the same towards another who is on your side is double talk.

Your resolution on love all hangs on this. Do you not agree. If love does not speak evil then how can you condone one and chastise another?

Wade Burleson said...

Joe and Tim and Jack,

Using your logic, I would expect that all three of you have called both Ben and Jeremy down for their ad hominem attacks.

Please direct me to where I can read what you have written that is personal evidence of your call for consistency.

The Milkman said...

I commented on this issue over at Marty Duren's place, but no one responded, so I'll ask here since it came up.

Does anyone besides me see a problem with equating Dr. Yarnell's criticism of the statistical methodology/opinion polling done in a singular work with the doctrinal and institutional issues involving SWBTS & IMB trustees?

I could see that there are superficial parallels, but they are not the same.

I wonder if those who are equating the two would also expect the same swift and just actions to be taken if a SEBTS professor made a critical comment about the Mother's Day lesson in the latest Lifeway Sunday School quarterly?
Now, there's your parallel.

Wade Burleson said...

Mr. Tim,

Ben is not calling for Malcolm's termination, and when I spoke to Malcolm on the phone today I assured him of my support for him to be able to criticize Lifeway.

However, Dwight is owed an apology or Malcolm must be censured too.

Wade Burleson said...

Milkman,

It is allegedly criticism of an SBC agency that is prohibited by the SWBTS President. Gymnastics differentiating between policy and research is without merit if the prohibition is against the agency.

Barry said...

Wade,

A quote from Charles Spurgeon,

“I believe, brethren, that whenever the church of God declines, one of the most effectual ways of reviving her is to preach much truth concerning the Holy Spirit.”

The sermon is based on Micah 2:7 and is called, “The Holy Ghost the Need of This Age.” This sermon is very much worth the time reading. Of course that is true of all of his sermons.

Barry Clingan

Debbie said...

Sean: The statistics of this poll will not exclude people. That cannot be said of the policies at SWBTS or IMB.

Charles R. said...

Oh, Debbie, let's not worry about people when there are propositions to be defended, hairs to be split and camels to be shoved through eyes of needles. :)

Winning Truth w/Tim Guthrie said...

Wade,
I have done so and you do know this - oh wait a min. Some people at a time not so long ago blocked comments and then trashed some and you did request written proof - hmmm - could be another weak attempt at a "spin" :).

I guess what is good for some is wrong for others still.

I will say this final thought on this tonight in your own way "can you truly deny the double standard in light of a holy God who knows and sees all?"

Wade Burleson said...

Don't tell me Tim.

Show me.

Winning Truth w/Tim Guthrie said...

Wade,
I will be true to my words and simply say "how about those Lady Vols in OKC!"

:)

P.S.
Only one who knew what had been trashed would asked for written proof - great try!

Wade Burleson said...

Tim,

When you show me where you have taken Jeremy Green to task for his inappropriate comments, I will be happy to talk to you about consistency.

Until then, have a great nights rest.

RKSOKC66 said...

I think it is timely that the subject of the “young Turk” bloggers is coming up. For better or worse, we have been looking at their work product now for over a year. They may have started out with an equal footing, but now that there is some water under the bridge we can start to see the wheat separating from the chaff.

Tim, I think you are on to something regarding Ben. Independent of the stands he takes or his position on any subject, he has marginalized himself by his “brashness”. I don’t mind a little satire once and a while. I used to enjoy reading Mad comics when I was college age. But Ben is just too “coarse” to retain my attention. I no longer take him seriously.

I’d say Wade has emerged as the emerging statesman in the “young SBC bloggers”. Marty is right there also. Ben has fallen by the wayside.

I subscribe to the Wall St. Journal and read it every day. I don’t always agree with what the WSJ prints but at least they are thoughtful and civil. [I didn’t agree with today’s editorial about immigration]

Comparing Wade’s style with Ben’s is like comparing the WSJ to Oprah.

There must be a reason that Wade’s blog has become the de-facto “hub” for what I call the “fresh air movement”. For me the reason is that Wade stays on task and just keeps moving forward. His blog is always “on message” and civil. He allows everyone – including those who disagree – to state their case. Only in the most egregious of cases does he step in and remove comments that are way “beyond the pale” in terms of decency.

BTW, this is the first blog comment that I’ve prepared using Microsoft Word – with spelling check – and then copied and pasted into the blog comment web page. Enough of trying to decode what I’m trying to say with misspelled words and grammatical gaffes.

Roger K. Simpson
Oklahoma City OK

Anonymous said...

Brother Charles,

After consulting with my wife (who helps keep me in touch with reality), she informed me that what I said did not sound good.

So, thank you for your comment.

And let me say that I do believe that the Holy Spirit is wonderfully sufficient.

Accordingly, I would encourage you to learn from the quote (after all, it's not "Leek's" fault) while I take my comment and put it in my 101 _______________ Benji quotes book.

:)

God Bless

Benji

LivingDust said...

Brother Wade,

All true, born again believers have received the Holy Spirit. But as a group of Christian believers, many and perhaps most Baptists do not believe in the manifestions of the Holy Spirit (speaking in tongues, praying with a special prayer language, being slain in the Spirit, etc.). I have a few, very dear Pentacostal friends who exhibit manifestations of the Holy Spirit. I love them very much. I have worshipped with their congregation on rare occassions. There worship services and fellowships are different from those experienced at my congregation. They are always gently joking with me that someday I'm going to receive the Holy Ghost and speak in tongues. My reply to them is that I HAVE received the Holy Ghost and at the present time He has me speaking in a "tongue" called "English".

If I have a Baptist brother or sister who speaks in tongues, prays with a special prayer language, slays another in the Spirit, or walks on water who am I to tell them what they can or can't do in their relationship with God.

How utterly pretentious it is for one brother to tell another brother how his relationship with God must be confined.

The Holy Spirit will ALWAYS prompt and guide us to adjust our life to be in accordance with the perfect will of the Father. We must be obedient to the Holy Spirit.

Our Convention is comprised of believers who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we must humbly surrender our will and be obedient to the Holy Spirit.

Nancy said...

I'm new at all this blogging stuff.
But, I would like to make a comment on some thing I just read.
Whether Ben's comments had substance is not the question. The question is were the words kind and loving?

Winning Truth w/Tim Guthrie said...

O.K. Wade, I will say one more time and then leave for the night: to post an outcry at Jeremy and yet never to do so at Ben is the subject - it is the double speak. You are a master of turning a point around but not this time. If you publically rebuke Jeremy and spiritually rebuke him and yet do not do the same with Ben - what does that say?

Now will answer your question concerning me and Jeremy - I did not think his was over the line. You did and yet Ben has gone further and you do nothing. Why? Unless this is the fairness and consistency you have been writing about being seen for what it is not?

Try as hard as a t it may be to stay on task - you are usually good at this - and read what i am typing. If Jeremy is over the line then Ben is over the line for calling people fat and using vulgarity - true? That is the issue!

With that I am going to watch a movie with my wife and enjoy the scenerity of bonds of matrimony absent bloggers and blogging. There is just no comparrison!

Matt Brady said...

Yes Roger,

Isn’t it nice that Wade has someone like Ben to handle all of his dirty work for him. I think most people have caught on to the connection and realize that Wade’s “irenic” statesman halo is not so unblemished.

Sorry to have to be so blunt, but I don’t know how else to say it.

Debbie said...

Tim: Jeremy was out of line, he was confronted. Let it rest.

peter lumpkins said...

Dear Wade,

The Boys--Joe and Tim and Jack--just ate your supper right from under your nose, my Brother. The inconsistency toward which they point stands so blantantly obvious I'm shocked your most able defenders here stand idly by.

No more than a few hours back, Wade, you penned this to Dr. Barber: "Three things I appreciate about Ben...a brilliant and logical mind...able to laugh at himself [and] others...he recognizes that he is often mean spirited and makes no bones about it." Your record for "being consistent" is, I am afraid, cracking on the faultline.

Nor does it assist your case to point out our Tim's alleged inconsistencies. That is only a bait and switch maneuver, Wade, and you know it.

That is, get your contender thinking about other things--in this case, himself--then, you cleverly duck the original question to you. Slick, Wade...but very transparent.

Yeah. They ate your supper, Wade. Sorry, old boy.

Grace. With that, I am...

Peter

Debbie said...

Matt: Now you are out of line.

Wade Burleson said...

Mr. Guthrie,

If you do not think Jeremy was over the line in his comment about Dr. Ed Stetzer then you and Jeremy should both be ashamed.

Matt Brady said...

Debbie,

How else do you get the truth out, unless you are willing to say it, and I AM telling the truth.

Wade Burleson said...

Mr. Lumpkin,

Thanks, but I really enjoyed the supper my wife prepared.

:)

What Jeremy did was out of line, and the fact you men can't admit it reveals a great deal.

peter lumpkins said...

Dear Debbie,

Smile, sister. God made a beautiful evening. With that, I am...

Peter

Debbie said...

That's the problem Matt. You're not.

Matt Brady said...

Debbie,

I do know what I am talking about. Just ask Ben! One thing I will say for him, he is honest.

LivingDust said...

Nancy,

Last year, for the three or four months leading up to the Greensboro NC Southern Baptist Convention I was reading Brother Wade's blog. It was interesting and I learned much about issues pertaining to the Southern Baptist Convention, particulary the International Mission Board.

I learned that Brother Wade has a friend named Ben Cole, a Pastor of a flock somewhere near Dallas. Brother Ben has his own blog - Baptist Blogger. On June 16th he posted a "wrap up" on the Greensboro convention.

He starts off his June 16th thread with this statement. I have never forgotten it. I was floored that a guy would put this in writing, on a public blog:

"No election of officers in the Southern Baptist Convention will be able to address the systemic and profound theological ignorance of the average messenger to the annual meeting."

I disagree with the Brother Ben's statement, systematically and profoundly.

I know the Lord loves Brother Ben because I know the Lord loved a cantankerous fisherman, Peter, and so shall we.

Wade Burleson said...

Let me be very clear Mr. Lumpkin . . .

Those of you crying against what you perceive to be a lack of consistency on my part are being challenged to pony up . . .

It is not my argument that there is a lack of consistency . . . it is yours . . .

Now to prove your consistency in order to be consistent in your cry for consistency, show me where you have written a public rebuke of Jeremy Green for his words.

You all do so against Ben, but not Jeremy . . .

I have never once accused you of inconsistency . . . you are accusing me.

Now prove to me your consistency.

:)

Winning Truth w/Tim Guthrie said...

Not to the extent of your refusal to publically call down Ben!

Wade, you are better than this - I pray!

To have the audacity tell me or anyone else we should be ashamed while skipping around this issue is more than shame!

Even my wife agrees!

Matt Brady said...

Wade,

You are indeed the king of spin :-)

peter lumpkins said...

Dear Wade,

I am quite sure your wife made a delicious supper. Hun & I had the pleasure of dining out this evening.

Who are "you men"? I have commented neither on Jeremy nor Ben's words. The guys who ate your supper did.

My observation was that they poked you in the eye really good. And, it is very obvious.

Perhaps Lifeway can do a scientific study on all your words to see how consistent you actually are. Dr. Stetzer can lead the research.

Grace. With that, I am...

Peter

Wade Burleson said...

Thanks Matt,

I think.

:)

Winning Truth w/Tim Guthrie said...

Your inconsistency is this:
You have repeatedly called down jeremy for his, in your eyes, appearent lack of something, while denying the same thing from Ben. Wade, we asking if agree with the staement that what Ben has done is better or not as bad as what Jeremy has done? Simple question - the question was asked of you and your seeming need for calling people down while ignoring others.

Why can you not answer the question first asked of you without trying to spin around it?

I am still re-reading your proposed resolution - will you live up to it?

Brad said...

Wade, et al,
My earlier attempt at humor now seems to be a bit too close.
Let's all be honest here. Jeremy is over the line and is often over the line. I have spent time with Dr. Stetzer and know his heart for reaching the world. He is a fine man. Jeremy is flat out wrong and should man up and admit it.
Ben is also often wrong and often way over the line. He is, in Wade's own words, "mean spirited." I wish that, rather than just saying, "well that's just Ben" his friends would man up and tell him he is over the line. It seems I read somewhere, "faithful are the wounds of a friend."
Tim, Wade, Marty, Matt - you all need to admit your blinded duplicity to "your own man" and you are both correct about "their man."
Now have I managed to offend everyone :)

Debbie said...

Matt's just been watching way to much Bill O'Reilly.

Matt Brady said...

Debbie,

Have you called Ben yet? Just check me out and see.

peter lumpkins said...

Wade,

Calm down...Take a deep breath or feel the immense wrath of a scorned woman for puking up her supper.

Peace. With that, I am...

Peter

Winning Truth w/Tim Guthrie said...

She actually agreed, she being a more astute student of research than I!

Funny how you still never answer the questions? What about what ben is doing to Dr. P?

Oh well, my wife says it is time for computer bye bye! Maybe tomorrow we will awake to see the question answered???

:)

Wade Burleson said...

Brad,

I don't disagree at all.

:)

I will freely admit that there is a loyalty to Ben -- but I have spoken him privately about several issues with which we disagree -- and he does as he pleases.

I tried to call Mr. Green this afternoon and tonight, and will be speaking to him as well.

We are not addressing Mr. Cole in this blog, we are addressing Mr. Green.

He was wrong and should be ashamed.

And if someone refuses to acknowledge that by attempting to change the subject, I will be tenacious in staying on track.

Wade Burleson said...

I am glad your wife agreed with me.

She's a smart lady.

Good night Tim.

Wade Burleson said...

Peter,

I am calm, breathing normal, and watching Pirates of the Carribean with my son . . .

One of my top ten movies of all time!!

Matt Brady said...

Brad,

Be assured, ther was no offense taken by me to your comment.

Matt Brady said...

I'm gone for the night too.

Anonymous said...

I respect the scope of this post, but I think it might be helpful to say that these are evidences of our need for the Holy Spirit, not the reason why we need Him. We need him for life, all manner of godliness, faithfulness to the Gospel, evangelistic fruitfulness, daily perseverence, etc.
Considering this larger perspective, the most important resolution for this year's convention seems to be pastor Tom Ascol's, which relates to church membership integrity. This would be a practical example of humility before the world, repentance towards God, and submission to God's expressed will.

We desperately need the Spirit of Christ - in the denomination, and even more so, in our individual churches. If the Spirit does not control individual Christians, who reside in Spirit-controlled churches, we can never expect to have a Spirit-filled denomination.

- bcw

Brad said...

Wade,
Two things we agree on in one night! Is it a blue moon out?
Thank goodness for TNT. They only have about five movies to play.

Wade Burleson said...

Good words BCW.

Thanks for adding some content to this string.

Mike Ruffin said...

I am in no position to get involved in this squabble about McKissic, Yarnell, Setzer, Burleson, Cole, et al.

On the larger issue, and for what it's worth, I would call your attention to my Pentecost Sunday sermon, which is posted on my blog here.

Mike Ruffin said...

Sorry, I did the link incorrectly. The sermon I mentioned in my previous post is at http://onthejerichoroad.blogspot.com/2007/05/purpose-of-pentecostal-power.html.

Brad said...

Wade,
Inasmuch as this is a post about Jeremy, I agree with what you say.
However, there is a valid point to be made in asking, where is the post of outrage to some of Ben's comments. (see Robin's post last night, or many others) These were made publicly. Why does he get a private call and Jeremy gets an immediate post?
To what you are saying of Jeremy's words, however, I am in complete agreement.

jack said...

We should be less concerned about the “mean spirited” writers among us and more concerned about the mean-spirited brothers and sisters among us who would drive missionaries from the field; female professors from our seminaries; women who have answered God’s call from our churches; church planters from their congregations, our convention from cooperation with other Baptists and great commission churches around the world; and scores of individual Baptists and Baptist Churches from our midst.

Our charge is to not to go into all of the seminaries and debate theology, but to go into all of the world and spread The Gospel .

My prayer is that we turn away from that which divides us --- and will ultimately destroy us if we let it --- and simply unite once more around telling the world about the salvation that is available to all who accept Christ as their savior.

Amen.

Robert Hutchinson said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Robert Hutchinson said...

jack,

those are some well said Spirit inspired words. to which i can only say...amen!

Lee said...

I'd suggest that we tone down the rhetoric--a lot, and focus on the issue.

If this kind of hostility prevails, and the Lifeway information is anywhere close to being accurate on this subject, well, let's just say I've seen churches split over less.

The Holy Spirit has surely gifted some Southern Baptists with the ability to come together, think creatively, and resolve an issue like this, in which no heresy is involved, no compromise of the integrity of the scripture, just a difference of opinion over interpretation. This doesn't have to be a win-lose situation, or even a compromise involving each "side" giving something up.

http://deepintheheart.wordpress.com

I have a few thoughts on the subject, and that's where I've posted them.

country baptist preacher said...

I think Wade has it right. If you have a difference, be nice.
-----------------------------
Living Dust said (quoting Ben Cole) "No election of officers in the Southern Baptist Convention will be able to address the systemic and profound theological ignorance of the average messenger to the annual meeting."

I am not sure how to interpret Ben's remark. On the one hand I would agree. I have been in church work my whole life and been a Pastor for many years. I wonder if the average "pew sitter" (of which many are messengers), can quote 10 scriptures and tell you where they are and, in context, explain what they mean. I don't intend to sound mean or to slander the laity as a blanket statement.

If you add to that the widespread theological distortions, half truths, and slander that control some of the SBC politics over the past years, and the same thing in some cases of theological distortions in the seminaries (of which I am a grad)
then you can see Bens point.

On the other hand...........?? Is this distortion thing what he was talking about? The whole thing on private prayer language is a great example. Some say that "Baptists don't believe" and yet, the ones that believe seem to be all around.

On another post you made a great point about the workings and manifestations of the Holy Spirit. I absolutely agree with your premise. No one can judge another by what has or has not happened in their own life.

Many years ago I was with a group of Koreans. One of the men died of a heart attack. As we stood and watched the paramedics work on him, one of the women called Korea and spoke in her native tongue. I understood every word she said. Never before and never since has such a thing happened.

God was just tweekiing me and reminding me he was God and He is still on His Throne.

thanks, grace
cbp

CB Scott said...

Tim G.,

There have been times when Wade did call Ben's hand. He has called my hand. He has called Marty's hand. He has call Wes' hand. The list can go on and on.

The fact that he has called Jeremy Green's hand here is consistent with his record. He is now dealing with Jeremy Green.

I,on the other hand, will venture an observation.

One real difference between Mr. Green and Mr. Cole is very evident. Mr. Green is a coward and has been from the time he started his blog.(He has no open comment thread of which he says he does not have time for because he is so busy. The truth is he does not want the folks in his church see him get spanked.)

Ben takes his licks from all quarters and comes right back. (both friend and foe)

There is a very big difference between Cole and Green in the area of integrity. I am sure you get the point. Tim, you post with an open comment thread. Jeremy's excuse that he does not is that he works more than the rest of us and he does not have the time. That brings me to another difference.

It has to do with lying..... Think about it. Is Jeremy really the most busy one among us?

cb






cb

Wayne Smith said...

What is TRUTH??
The way I see what has been posted the past 2 years by these 2 Men of GOD’S calling is like night and day. The difference between Ben Cole and Jeremy Green is their motive. Ben wants the truth to be known and has taken a lot of persecution because of his stand for truth. Jeremy wants to shine someone boots and please mankind. Now I ask the rest of you what your motive is to be Blogging?? I’m 71 years old and overweight, I will vote for Ben’s resolution if brought before the convention. Sin is sin and there is no getting away from it.

In His Name
Wayne Smith

peter lumpkins said...

Dear CB,

Thanks for your words. No doubt you know my dissent. Let's see, though. You write that Wade has "call[ed] Ben's hand."

Note Wade's statement:

"Let me be very clear Mr. Lumpkin [sic] . . .Those of you crying against what you perceive to be a lack of consistency on my part are being challenged to pony up . . ."

In the spirit of Wade's statement, my Brother CB, I'd like to offer you, if I may, an opportunity to "pony up." Show us the goods where Wade has "call[ed] Ben's hand."

By the way, you also wrote of Ben that "Ben takes his licks from all quarters and comes right back. (both friend and foe)." I am unsure what you mean by "licks from all quarters."

Nonetheless I know for a fact some people do NOT get an opportunity to inflict any licks for the simple reason he will not allow their comments on his blog.

I'm tired. So, I'll give you the rest of the night to "pony up" ;^)

With that, I am...

Peter

CB Scott said...

Peter,

This is going to sound very untrue, but the post has been deleted.

Back several months ago there was a post on Marty's blog. Ben and I both, took issue with Marty. Wade rebuked us both for our comments to Marty. That is the one that most comes to mind for me. I guess because so many people were involved. There have been other times. I once popped Wade on Wes' blog. Art and Wade popped me back. I cannot remember what side Ben fell out on that one. My point is that Wade has called on Ben to "pony up" as he has me and others.

Now, Peter I have "cowboyed up" and I hope it is "pony" enough to answer your question:-)

cb

Benjamin S. Cole said...

Oh, Peter Lumpkin...

You're just mad because I won't post your comments on my blog.

Honestly, it's not that I have anything against you. Not in the least.

I just think one smart-aleck jackass is enough for my blog. Two would be too many.

BSC

LivingDust said...

I'm a member of the Men's Sunday School class at our church. Its a small group, mainly comprised of married guys, attendance ranging anywhere from 6 to 15 guys. We don't follow a set Bible Study, we go around the circle and each of us share a testimony about what the Lord did in our life since the prior Sunday. We discuss Scriptures, the Lord, life, family, friends, etc. When we have a visitor we slow it down and let them have plenty of time to share their testimony. Our group sometimes disagrees about the Word of God and how Jesus might have handled a situation that we discussed, but at the end of the hour we pray and nothing in this world could dissolve the love and respect we have for one another. I always walk out of that room looking forward to the next Sunday.

Is our class a microcosm of the SBC or have I missed the mark?

volfan007 said...

cb,

jeremy wont allow comments, and ben deletes comments that he doesnt like. what's the difference, really?

ben has deleted many of my comments, and others state that he deletes thier comments. so, i dont think your arguement comparing ben and jeremy holds up to good there.

and then, we hear from mr. cole just a few threads down calling a fellow pastor a jackass?!?!

wow! has the point that tim g. and peter been proven or what?

wayne,

you sound like pontious pilate with your "what is truth?" statement. and, are you a mind reader? a prophet? the Holy Spirit? in order for you to read minds and motives?

wow, what a trip!

david


wayne,

Wade Burleson said...

Ben,

I do not believe it is appropriate to call Peter a jack ass.

Nor is it appropriate to call yourself one.

CB Scott said...

Vol,

Have I ever denied that Ben can be harsh? No. I am presenting the difference between Ben and Jeremy. Jeremy is a coward and Ben is not.

Now, Is that not true?

cb

Benjamin S. Cole said...

Volfan...

When you write substantive comments, I post them. My readers expect the very best, and they don't come around my blog to read your gratuitous plugs for your own blog, or your silly requests for nomination to a convention office.

When you write withering attacks on me, I always publish them. Call me a masochist.

All that said, you've shown considerable improvement since first appearing on these blogs. Your comments are more than repetitive mantras and endlessly illogical non-sequiturs.

In fact, if I could I would write a little note to your mommy and pin it to your shirt and tell her about the progress you've made. :)

There. Does the smiley face help?

BSC

Benjamin S. Cole said...

And CB:

Let's please not compare me to Jeremy Green.

I think he is as bristled by that comparison as I am.

Nevertheless, I suppose we are both pretty mean and condescending. We drive our ideological opponents equally batty too, I would guess.

And, of course, we're both brilliant and articulate.

BSC

CB Scott said...

Well, Vol, does it help?:-)

cb

volfan007 said...

cb,

one does not allow comments...the other deletes what he does not like said. i really dont see the difference. but, apparently you do. i guess that you and ben are friends is all i can figure on why you can a difference. :)

ben,

lol. thanks for the progress report, and i believe you gave me a star for improvement! wow! i'll cherish it forever. :)

david

peter lumpkins said...

Dear CB,

Well, I thought I was finished for the night. Alas, my dearest gave me the horrid newz that since I left the key to our neighbor's house at the church office (we are pet-sitting for them), I get the honor of toting my tail over there and getting it--NOW!

What the heck, it's only an hour and a half one way.

As for your pony, CB, I doubt not for a moment something existed but vanished precisely as you say. All I've experienced in our exchanges leads me to believe you honor truth.

Settled then on the vanishing one. To be fair though, we'll have to ignore that one, for as you say, it no longer possesses being.

As for the other ponies, they are pretty short, if I am honest...Shetlands? Midgets maybe? I can't tell. They are just too, shall we say, generic.

But, shoot fire, man. No use being picky. I'll take what I can get tonite.

I think I'll crank up my little Z3, lose the top and take a rocket launch on a nice early Georgia morning.

Thanks for the good talk, CB. I am going to spin over to Little Pittsburg sometime soon and we'll talk live over a good cup of coffee. Perhaps about ponies, who knows?

Grace. With that, I am...

Peter

volfan007 said...

cb,

that should have said...."thats why you can see a difference"


rats...a grammatical mistake...and after ben gave me a good progress report too. ben, please overlook this little error. i so much want my mommy to see the good progress report you gave me. ok?

david

CB Scott said...

Wade,

It actually is appropriate for Ben to say that of himself. So, please do not rebuke him for it.

Peter,

There, I have "ponyed up":-)

cb

peter lumpkins said...

Dear Brother Ben,

Why, I cannot believe it! You're actually addressing little old me! Sweet...

Know also that you have it all wrong about me. I'm not the least bit mad that you will not post my comments. You are not alone, I'm quite sure you are aware. I speak where I can influence--both good and bad as does everybody else--and leave the results to our Sovereign. No big deal. Don't sweat it.

As for my being a jack-ass, my Brother Ben, you may just be on to something. When I was a little twit, at times I pretty much exhausted my Daddy's patience. When he had enough, I knew to run. I remember often him saying something like "I'm gonna get you, you little jack-ass." Need I say, I got what, back in those days, little jack-asses got.

As with Wade, I do not agree with your SBC politics, old boy, nor with your ceaseless acid spew about Dr. Patterson. But for that, I cannot judge. That's Almighty's job and judge every idle word of us both He will, do you not agree?

And, take it from the mouth of a jack-ass, Ben: from where I neigh, I'd not want to be in my laboratory, mixing up a tube of your spew to fling on Dr. Patterson at the Rapture's moment, only to look Jesus in the eye with the tube in my hand.

Hee Haw Hee Haw Hee Haw Hee Haw. With that, I am...

Peter

peter lumpkins said...

CB

Absolutely not! I refuse to speak of pony-up anymore to you unless it is over coffee--and GOOD coffee--in Birmingham. And you buy it!

I'm off into the night, my hair--what's left of it--blowing in the wind.

Grace for a good night. With that, I am...

Peter

Bryan Riley said...

Does this thread bring glory to God?

Does this thread help me see how beautiful it is when brothers dwell together in unity? Psalm 133?

Does this thread wake people up to the Truth that God desires to restore relationships and that we have that God living in us, complete with that same desire?

Gentlemen, if we are not acting in love, saying things in edification, forgiving, bearing, endeavoring to unify, teaching with gentleness and respect, laying down our own rights, doing as Jesus did and would do and is doing, then we are falling short of His glory and not trusting in the Lord with all our hearts.

As many here know, they have received personal emails with concerns about their words and methods. I'm sure from many different people. This includes Wade, CB, Jeremy, Ben. And, praise God for CB, he called me on the carpet early on in my blogging.

I would say each should examine their hearts and confess and pray for one another. As that begins to happen, I think we will see a move of God. Can't we humble ourselves?

God does take this bunch of lemons and make lemonade out of it; praise the Lord for His ability to do so. But let's not continue to put forth lemons just because He can. Romans 6:1.

Instead, let's change this world together by coming together and loving one another, even our crazy Uncle Vinnies.

When Wade turns off anonymity i can't provide a proper link...

Bryan Riley
charisshalom.fjministries.com
bwriley4[at]yahoo[dot]com

p.s. The thread illustrates better than the post how much we need to be filled and filled and filled with the Holy Spirit.

martyduren said...

Ben-

I'm calling you out--you should not have implied that Peter is a jack-ass, even if he does believe it himself.

Wade-

I'm calling you out--Ben should have called himself a jack-ass as he does believe it himself. He's just speaking the truth in love.

Bryan-
It doesn't; next question...

peter lumpkins said...

Dear Marty,

Good morning. I took your advice. I finally got my act together! And to prove it, I am planning soon to contact Presidents Carter and Clinton to see if they will grace me with a photo-op.

I am convinced it will do wonders for my image that our old friend Ben apparently has now ruined.

Peace. With that, I am...

Peter

martyduren said...

Peter-
Won't work. I have to be in the picture.

dwm III said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
dwm III said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Shamgar said...

Wow, I'm really quite surprised by this thread of comments. I'm not entirely familiar with all the issues here (I am afraid I cannot read every post and all th e comments) but it seems to me that there are several people here who agree on a specific inconsistency that they observe in you Wade.

Now, I cannot speak to the merit of such a charge. It may be completely groundless. Yet, your response to it only lends them credibility on this point. Instead of simply answering their objections and dealing with it forthrightly - you have attempted to turn it around on them. You have demanded consistency from them before you will demonstrate it - I hardly think this is the right tack. Whether other people do the right thing or not, you are likewise called to it.

I don't know - maybe there isn't a comparison between Ben and Jeremy, or maybe there is some other weak point in their charge. I can't say. Whatever it is, you should address the charge and not deflect it.

I'm not saying you should have to address every charge made against you by a couple of people commenting on your blog. That's absurd. However, some of the people who have commented here I've seen around a lot, and at least one of them has had many things to say which even you have respected even if you disagreed.

And at least the early ones were posted in what seemed (at least to me) to be a proper spirit towards you.

Shamgar said...

On the actual topic in question - I wonder - when people say "baptists believe" are they really saying "the majority of baptists now living believe" as you and others in this thread seem to suggest?

I cannot speak for these men, but when I'm talking to other people about "what baptists believe" it has nothing to do with what the majority of baptists today believe. It has to do with what the baptists historically believe. When I say "what baptists believe" I mean the 1&2 LBCF. I mean the baptist catechism. I mean the writings of men like Benjamin Keach, and Nehemiah Coxe. Not Patterson. Not Mohler. Not Page. Where we are now is sadly a far cry from our beginnings.

I'm sure there are many who would say 'what baptists believe' and make that a 'current majority' statement, but I think that's wrong. 'What baptists believe' should be defined in a historical context, and not by what the majority of people today believe.

Particularly given, as Ben said, the widespread theological ignorance in the church today. (A statement I would agree with for much the same reasons as an earlier poster). I would take that further in fact and add 'historical ignorance' which is almost as dangerous.

I would dare say that for the majority of our membership today church history goes back at most 50 years.

Wade Burleson said...

Shamgar,

Thanks for your comment, but you are addressing old news. Read Mullins post today.

:)

volfan007 said...

peter,

i want to be in the pic with carter and clinton too. i will be the one wearing my overalls. :)

you reckon that abpnews will show our pic?

david

peter lumpkins said...

David,

Most certainly they would, my David. But if they would not, I stand confident our Wade would post our pic with C/C front and center, do you not agree?

Just think of the celebrity status we would then entertain.

Peace, David. With that, I am...

Peter

Debbie said...

I find it ironic that all of this is posted in a post of why our convention needs the Holy Spirit. Reading the comments alone should give no doubt as to why.

R. L. Vaughn said...

Wayne Smith said..."Now I ask the rest of you what your motive is to be Blogging?"

The truth. I hope. But the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked.

I do also believe that the other bloggers that interact in the blogs I read sincerely believe they are motivated by the truth, including Ben Cole and Jeremy Green. Just because I may not agree with them is no reason to suppose they are not as sincere for the truth as I hope I am. If I didn't believe that, I wouldn't enter discussions with them (them being you all generically).

Bryan Riley said...

Marty, I agree with your answer to those questions. I now wonder why there isn't public repentance. I think it could well start revival for more to come forward and put an end to this type of di-stink-tion in the Church of God.

Anonymous said...

OK SO ACCORDING TO BISHOP BURLESON, MCKISSIC IS FREE TO SPEAK HIS MIND AND DR. YARNELL, BUT NOT JEREMY GREEN? I DON'T SEE THE LOGIC. EITHER WE'RE ALL FREE TO SPEAK OPENLY AND HONESTLY AS BAPTISTS OR WE'RE NOT. BEING AN "INEXPERIENCED PASTOR" DOESN'T MAKE GREEN UNABLE TO FREELY SPEAK HIS MIND. I DON'T NECESSARILY AGREE WITH HIS COMMENTS AND YES THE SBC NEEDS THE ANOINTING OF THE HOLY GHOST IN A POWERFUL UNUSUAL WAY AND ATTACKING EACH OTHER ISN'T HELPING ANYONE.

country baptist preacher said...

anonymous, there is no corelation between these 2 men's statements.

Where I am from we are all rural country folk but we know
there is a difference between speaking your mind on theological/Biblical issues AND running your mouth like a smart aleck while slandering others.

Not really a hard thing to figure out.
A good verse to always remember:

Math 12:36 But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken."

Kinda scares me a bit and causes me to be a might careful.

grace
cbp

Kelly Reed said...

Considering the content and importance of the post, I'm disappointed that the vast majority of these comments have very little to do with addressing the content of the research.

I was called as a part of this research a few weeks ago.

I posted about it on my blog.

http://pursuing-faith.blogspot.com/2007/05/lifeway-research-alcohol-tongues.html

I'm surprised that it has made it out so fast. My mother handed me the article in her local paper last night--the first I had seen it.

According to the numbers 50% said it was at least possible. 7% didn't know and 43% said no.

The hard line cessassionist position was in the minority according to this research. Why is that not being discussed here?

I can't imagine that I was selected ahead of time, but rather that I was there to answer the phone and decided to participate because I heard Lifeway's name.

The researcher was friendly and not leading. The questions were good but did not always provide me the answer I wanted to give. I had to insist on my answer a few times.

I am glad this research is out to spur greater discussion.

Pursuing Answers to Questions of Faith & Life,

Kelly

Bryan Riley said...

crickets. Let it change.